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Mountain Williams

by Roaddog
15 replies
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Tonight on the History Channel, for those that get it, is a show called Hillbilly: the Real Story.

I saw it a few months ago.
I'm about as far from Hillbilly as you can get, but I really liked it.
It is much better than I thought it would be. Goes into moonshining, where the word redneck comes from, Nascar and history, and etc...etc...

While you may be like me, and think anyone outside of L.A., Chicago, New York, and Toledo is a Hillbilly, thisil' learn ya.


It is very good, hosted by Billy Ray Cyrus.

Stories about mythic hillbillies drawn from 300 years of outcast immigrants, war heroes, isolated backwoodsmen, miners, moonshiners, preachers, musicians and politicians. Host: Billy Ray Cyrus.
This has been a Roaddog public service announcement, y'all.
  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    You know...I had on the History Channel when it was coming on and took my evening nap, so I just missed it.

    But I think "redneck" comes from farmers being bent over looking down at the ground and getting a lot of sun on the backs of their necks...What did Billy Ray have to say about it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      You know...I had on the History Channel when it was coming on and took my evening nap, so I just missed it.

      But I think "redneck" comes from farmers being bent over looking down at the ground and getting a lot of sun on the backs of their necks...What did Billy Ray have to say about it?

      That's what I thought almost to a tee, Kurt.

      I'm going to watch it again tonight but,

      If I remember right, it's been a while. It actually came from the red scarfs/bandannas that the coal miners wore. Don't quote me...lol.

      The only reason I watched it the first time was there 'was nothing on' type nights. I was impressed.

      They show it quite a bit, every few months or so, it was much better than I thought it would be.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

        That's what I thought almost to a tee, Kurt.

        I'm going to watch it again tonight but,

        If I remember right, it's been a while. It actually came from the red scarfs/bandannas that the coal miners wore. Don't quote me...lol.

        The only reason I watched it the first time was there 'was nothing on' type nights. I was impressed.

        They show it quite a bit, every few months or so, it was much better than I thought it would be.
        I think Kurt is right.
        The term red neck came about from the poor white southern farmers who would spend the days working the fields.
        But what do I know. I'm just a dumb country boy who thinks the purpose of cities is to give people a place to live away from me
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I have seen it too many times already. It was good the first or second time around,but then it got boring.
    Another interesting area it touches on though is the Hatfield/McCoy feud,which was very real.
    I have to say though, hillbilly and rednecks are not the same animal.

    hillbillies are usually mountain folk while redneck was southern folk I think.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    Well, [sits down to whittle] Let me tell ya'll about a man named Jed...

    I watched it again last night for the second time.

    They said the term was coined by a New York newspaperman when pro union miners formed a small army to go and battle non union companies in West Virginia, et al.

    The 'army' was actually stopped by coal mining companies with deep pockets. And their own army on a hill in said state. Which ironically they are now ready to blow up to mine the rich deposits of coal underneath.

    People were so impressed with the red bandanna clad miners efforts, now already known as 'rednecks' that the term was adopted by a lot of 'southern type' people.

    from wiki
    The United Mine Workers of America (UMW) and rival miners' unions appropriated both the term redneck and its literal manifestation, the red bandana, in order to build multiracial unions of white, black, and immigrant miners in the strike-ridden coalfields of northern and central Appalachia between 1912 and 1936. The origin of redneck to mean "a union man" or "a striker" remains uncertain, but according to linguist David W. Maurer, the former definition of the word probably dates at least to the 1910s, if not earlier. The use of redneck to designate "a union member" was especially popular during the 1920s and 1930s in the coal-producing regions of southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and western Pennsylvania, where the word came to be specifically applied to a miner who belonged to a union.

    The term can be found throughout McAllister Coleman and Stephen Raushenbush's 1936 socialist proletarian novel, Red Neck, which recounts the story of a charismatic union leader named Dave Houston and an unsuccessful strike by his fellow union miners in the fictional coalfield town of Laurel, Pennsylvania. The word's varied usage can be seen in the following two examples from the book. "I'm not much to be proud of," Houston admits to his admiring girlfriend Madge in one scene. "I'm just a red necked miner like the rest." In another scene, a police captain curses Houston as a "God-damned red neck" during a fruitless jailhouse interrogation, before savagely beating him with a sawed-off chair-leg.
    The earliest printed uses of the word red-neck in a coal-mining context date from the 1912-1913 Paint and Cabin Creeks strike in southern West Virginia and from the 1913-1914 Trinidad District strike in southern Colorado. It is not known where the term originated. UMW national organizers quite possibly transported "redneck" from one section of the country to the other. Then again, its popularizers may have been agents of the Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency, an industrial espionage and mine security company headquartered in Bluefield, West Virginia, which supplied company guards and spies in both the West Virginia and the Colorado strikes. What is relatively certain, however, is that it originated as a negative epithet. Apparently, coal operators, company guards, non-union miners, and strikebreakers were among the first to use the term "redneck" in a labor context when they derided union miners with the slur. According to industrial folklorist George Korson, non-union miners derisively called strikers "rednecks" in the Appalachian coalfields, while slurring them as "sweaters" in Oklahoma and the southwestern coalfields. It is possible that redneck emerged in strike-ridden coalfields to mean "union miner" independently of its use in the deep south. Clearly, the best explanation of redneck to mean "union man" is that the word refers to the red handkerchiefs that striking union coal miners in both southern West Virginia and southern Colorado often wore around their necks or arms as a part of their informal uniform    .
    The thing that struck me was there were actually African American 'rednecks' at that time.

    The show was pretty thorough in it's history.

    Following the 'Scots Irish' first settlers. (who by the way, many people think that because of that name, they are half Irish, they were not. They were Scottish people from the lowlands that the English transplanted to Ireland) there was a little few hundred year tiff about that, for those who haven't heard.

    Anyway that's another story.

    The people that are most often thought of as hillbillies are the descendants of these Scots Irish

    The term redneck is just another word who's meaning has been 'adjusted' over the years. Just like hundreds of other words. ( I knows me some history, heahya)

    Later when the people started selling shine (they had made it from the beginning, having brought some shine recipes from as far back as Scotland) Prohibition brought modified cars (bootlegging) and in turn Nascar.

    Watch the show sometime, it is a very thorough look at a big part of Americana.

    Even how hillbilly music eventually became country music.




    The History Chan will now sign off, to take the youngun' to swimming lessons.

    So he's in good enough shape to battle them thar evil revenuer's.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Jim according to Wikipedia we are both right.
      It was first used for farmers though.
      Political term for poor farmers

      The term characterized farmers having a red neck caused by sunburn or a mixture of sweat and the dust of red clay dirt common in the southern states. A citation from 1893 provides a definition as "poorer inhabitants of the rural districts...men who work in the field, as a matter of course, generally have their skin stained red and burnt by the sun, and especially is this true of the back of their necks".[10]
      By 1900, "rednecks" was in common use to designate the political coalitions of the poor white farmers in the South.[11] The same group was also often called the "wool hat boys" (for they opposed the rich men, who wore expensive silk hats). A newspaper notice in Mississippi in August 1891 called on rednecks to rally at the polls at the upcoming primary election:[12]
      Primary on the 25th.
      And the "rednecks" will be there.
      And the "Yaller-heels" will be there, also.
      And the "hayseeds" and "gray dillers," they'll be there, too.
      And the "subordinates" and "subalterns" will be there to rebuke their slanderers and traducers.
      And the men who pay ten, twenty, thirty, etc. etc. per cent on borrowed money will be on hand, and they'll remember it, too.

      By 1910, the political supporters of the Mississippi politician James K. Vardaman--chiefly poor white farmers--began to describe themselves proudly as "rednecks," even to the point of wearing red neckerchiefs to political rallies and picnics.[13]
      By the 1970s, the term had turned into offensive slang and had expanded its meaning to mean bigoted, loutish and opposed to modern ways, and was often used to attack Southern conservatives and segregationists.[14]
      Coal miners

      The United Mine Workers of America (UMW) and rival miners' unions appropriated both the term redneck and its literal manifestation, the red bandana, in order to build multiracial unions of white, black, and immigrant miners in the strike-ridden coalfields of northern and central Appalachia between 1912 and 1936. The origin of redneck to mean "a union man" or "a striker" remains uncertain, but according to linguist David W. Maurer, the former definition of the word probably dates at least to the 1910s, if not earlier. The use of redneck to designate "a union member" was especially popular during the 1920s and 1930s in the coal-producing regions of southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and western Pennsylvania, where the word came to be specifically applied to a miner who belonged to a union.
      Redneck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Several times when I was a child I would go with my Grandparents to hear a "hillbilly concert". We drove to the countryside of Kentucky and usually the concert was in a converted barn in the middle of nowhere. We lived in Indiana at the time so I have no idea how they learned about the music events as most of the people attending seemed to be locals.

      But - oh - the music! No one was dressed to impress and seating was "find a chair and sit down". Banjos and fiddles and steel guitars - and there wasn't a foot that wasn't tapping in the whole place.

      Hillbillies to me were country people - simple, plain, honest. When my stepfather used the term "mountain williams" I thought is was rude and condescending.

      Thanks for the memories!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kirk VDL
    A really good movie that documents life in the Appalachians is called 'Harlan County USA'. It shows a coal mining mountain town that is striking against Duke Power. I highly recommend watching that after watching the History Channel doc.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Ok, now I am confused.What does Mountain Williams come from?
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Ok, now I am confused.What does Mountain Williams come from?

      Mountain (Hill) Williams (billies)

      I thought that word (hillbillies) was the one that was condescending, according to Kay it's mountain williams. They probably don't call themselves either.

      The word redneck was the least important IMO aspect of the show. I was merely relaying what the show said. No matter what the original meaning it probably has little to do with the connotations nowadays.
      Just like many words we 'think' we know.

      Line twenty people up and whisper a word or saying in one side and by the time it gets to the other side it will be different, with added perceptions.

      More interesting facts (that are provable..since there are documents) is that the mountain clans declared independence from the British four years before The Declaration of Independence.

      Won a few major battles against the Brits using Native battle techniques, they themselves learned fighting Natives for the very same land.

      That some of the moonshine recipes and techniques reached all the way back to clans in Scotland.

      And many more...

      I guess I found this subject interesting because I didn't know much about it.

      One of the only academic type of schooling that I ever excelled in was History.
      Certain parts, era's, peoples, I have gone so far in depth with, I will put myself up against any academic.
      The common denominator being that what most believe and were taught in schools is complete and utter bull****.

      Some things we may never know for certain.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Duh, I can't believe I missd that.

    My father's family was from Missouri,Land Of The Ozarks.Better known nowadays for Branson,entertainments old folks home.
    But I know the term hillbilly was embraced,and not taken as ridicule.
    Another term we had was hicks.
    I honestly don't think I even heard the term redneck until my family moved to Virginia in the late 60s/early 70s.
    But back in those days we were still playing cowboys and indians.
    One day I would wear Fry cowboy boots and the next day I would wear knee high macossins (sp).
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Jim I'm kinda a history buff myself and I knew about the clans declaring war before the rest of us. I may have very well seen that show and learned about it from there. I know they weren't originally very eager to join up with the rest of the colonist to fight the British either. They had more of a leave us alone and we'll leave you alone attitude.
      Another term we had was hicks.
      Yep I've been called a hick since I can remember remembering
      I still get called a hillbilly and redneck on occasion, problem there is the person calling me it usually thinks it's an insult and I always take it as a compliment. Funny it's always city folk who think they are insulting me:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    The United Mine Workers of America (UMW) and rival miners' unions appropriated both the term redneck and its literal manifestation, the red bandana, in order to build multiracial unions of white, black, and immigrant miners in the strike-ridden coalfields of northern and central Appalachia between 1912 and 1936. The origin of redneck to mean "a union man" or "a striker" remains uncertain, but according to linguist David W. Maurer, the former definition of the word probably dates at least to the 1910s, if not earlier. The use of redneck to designate "a union member" was especially popular during the 1920s and 1930s in the coal-producing regions of southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and western Pennsylvania, where the word came to be specifically applied to a miner who belonged to a union.
    Does this mean we should call Cub Scouts "yellow necks"?
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      A lot of clan things are in South USA.

      The term Klan as in KKK
      The burning of Crosses is something Scottish clans did
      The flag in the South is a Saltire as is the Scottish flag
      The pathalogical disliking of Catholics

      Mmmm anyone seeing a pattern with regards to Scottish Presbytarianism here?

      Dan

      PS: And as everyone in the UK knows when someone from Scotland goes on holiday and there is even a hint of sun they turn into Lobsters so I guess it was them getting all the Rednecks.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheBigShow
    Rednecks and Hillbilly's are definatley two different animals and yes, there are black rednecks atleast here in SC that dip copenhagen and jam on Hank Jr.
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