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Deer Overpopulation

by thunderbird
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My grandfather's wall was covered with the heads of animals my uncle had shot. My uncle had gone on hunting expeditions in Africa and hunted lots of different kinds of animals, including endangered species. I didn't know him very well, but I always thought his hunting fetish was sick, cruel, and destructive (no, my grandfather wasn't Ted Nugent). Those animal heads spooked me when I was a child. My uncle died while hunting in Africa, from a heart attack.

Once my cousin (his son) was challenged about whether it was necessary to hunt deer. He replied, "If you if you see a buck in your backyard, imagine all the meat you could have in your freezer." At the time, it struck me as heartless, especially knowing about his father's excessive hunting.

However, there is actually a valid argument for deer hunting -- deer overpopulation. Due to human encroachment of their territory, deer habitat has shrunk from wide expanses of wilderness to much smaller and confined areas, and natural predator populations of their natural predators such as wolves have been so reduced that one way to control their populations is through hunting. When deer populations aren't controlled in confined spaces, their populations get too large to be sustained by limited food sources, and this threatens their health and can even lead to starvation.

Hunting controls deer overpopulation (Chatham Journal)
#deer hunting #deer overpopulation #deer population
  • Profile picture of the author g4r3th
    There's been a rise in car accidents in Scotland over the last few years, caused by collisions with deer.
    Drivers need to be alert to the possibility of deer running onto roads.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    My grandfather's wall was covered with the heads of animals my uncle had shot. My uncle had gone on hunting expeditions in Africa and hunted lots of different kinds of animals, including endangered species. I didn't know him very well, but I always thought his hunting fetish was sick, cruel, and destructive (no, my grandfather wasn't Ted Nugent). Those animal heads spooked me when I was a child. My uncle died while hunting in Africa, from a heart attack.

    Once my cousin (his son) was challenged about whether it was necessary to hunt deer. He replied, "If you if you see a buck in your backyard, imagine all the meat you could have in your freezer." At the time, it struck me as heartless, especially knowing about his father's excessive hunting.

    However, there is actually a valid argument for deer hunting -- deer overpopulation. Due to human encroachment of their territory, deer habitat has shrunk from wide expanses of wilderness to much smaller and confined areas, and natural predator populations of their natural predators such as wolves have been so reduced that one way to control their populations is through hunting. When deer populations aren't controlled in confined spaces, their populations get too large to be sustained by limited food sources, and this threatens their health and can even lead to starvation.

    Hunting controls deer overpopulation (Chatham Journal)
    and i thought you were writing a letter to my extendedfamily
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    The problem with hunting as a way to control deek and elk populations is that hunters generally target the biggest, healthiest animals. Preditors tend to kill the sick, weak, injured and old...

    We'll have to wait a few hundred years to see how this will impact the gene pool for the deer.

    There's a problem with elk over-population where I live and there's a few ideas on how to handle it. I prefer the least popular idea, and that's to reintroduce wolves in the area.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      The problem with hunting as a way to control deek and elk populations is that hunters generally target the biggest, healthiest animals. Preditors tend to kill the sick, weak, injured and old...

      We'll have to wait a few hundred years to see how this will impact the gene pool for the deer.

      There's a problem with elk over-population where I live and there's a few ideas on how to handle it. I prefer the least popular idea, and that's to reintroduce wolves in the area.
      Hunting has worked really well here in NY.
      Even 20 years ago you rarely saw deer around where I live, now you can see them daily.
      True hunters try for the biggest with the nicest rack, but they rarely see that buck let alone get a shot at one.
      Keep in mind I'm talking about hunting in New York.
      Almost every hunter I know tries to get a Doe permit so they can be somewhat sure of putting meat in the freezer. They are also limited in the number of Bucks they can take. Except for during the rut, you will rarely see a Buck moving during the day around here, and when you do it's the younger, stupid, ones you see. They are the ones getting shot not the older wiser ones.
      All our big game and bird hunting here is based on animal population.
      If the population of deer is getting to small in an area, there will not be any hunting allowed there. When the population gets to large a limited number of hunting permits will be issued to thin the population.
      Turkeys are another animal here that 20 years ago you rarely saw.
      First there was a ban on hunting them till their population grew.
      Now there are two hunting seasons for them, spring and fall. In the fall hunt you are allowed 1 female (may be wrong on the number) in the spring hunt you are not allowed any females and a limited number of males. Considering you will find Turkeys and Deer now a days where ever there is habitat for them, I'd say the program has worked pretty well.
      Heck there are even Deer and Turkey in the parks in the City of Troy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Hunting has worked really well here in NY.
        Even 20 years ago you rarely saw deer around where I live, now you can see them daily.
        True hunters try for the biggest with the nicest rack, but they rarely see that buck let alone get a shot at one.
        Keep in mind I'm talking about hunting in New York.
        Almost every hunter I know tries to get a Doe permit so they can be somewhat sure of putting meat in the freezer. They are also limited in the number of Bucks they can take. Except for during the rut, you will rarely see a Buck moving during the day around here, and when you do it's the younger, stupid, ones you see. They are the ones getting shot not the older wiser ones.
        All our big game and bird hunting here is based on animal population.
        If the population of deer is getting to small in an area, there will not be any hunting allowed there. When the population gets to large a limited number of hunting permits will be issued to thin the population.
        Turkeys are another animal here that 20 years ago you rarely saw.
        First there was a ban on hunting them till their population grew.
        Now there are two hunting seasons for them, spring and fall. In the fall hunt you are allowed 1 female (may be wrong on the number) in the spring hunt you are not allowed any females and a limited number of males. Considering you will find Turkeys and Deer now a days where ever there is habitat for them, I'd say the program has worked pretty well.
        Heck there are even Deer and Turkey in the parks in the City of Troy.
        The problem here is more complex. Not to far from here is an area thought to have the highest density of elk anywhere in the World.

        But they are on National Park land and there's no hunting on National parks and the elk population has exploded and are destroying their own habitat. Without preditors, the elk stay in one spot, eating everything.

        Put a pack or two of wolves in the area and the elk will be on the move again.

        So the "solution" is, having the elk culled, which is a waste in itself. If they are going to be shot anyway, may as well sell licenses to hunters and use the revenue for the National parks.

        But I like having wolves better. Not only will they do the job the way it should be done, I believe it would increase tourism to the area. Plus we don't have the ranchers in the area that Yellowstone has.

        Im not against hunting, at least as long as I eat meat myself. I just don't believe hunting takes out the weak and sick like nature does. Wolves have almost an ESP to pick out the animals that have disease, injuries, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I've heard all the argument about overpopulation and it's true because WE have taken up so much space and destroyed so much of the natural habitat. But it's also a handy argument to use.

        I've known people who supply all of their family's meat through hunting and I have no problem with that. Killing for sport will never be something I understand. I've always thought every creature has only one life - how can you take that away for "fun" or "excitement"?

        I admit it - when it comes to animals, I'm a wuss. And I plant to stay that way:p
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I've heard all the argument about overpopulation and it's true because WE have taken up so much space and destroyed so much of the natural habitat. But it's also a handy argument to use.

          I've known people who supply all of their family's meat through hunting and I have no problem with that. Killing for sport will never be something I understand. I've always thought every creature has only one life - how can you take that away for "fun" or "excitement"?

          I admit it - when it comes to animals, I'm a wuss. And I plant to stay that way:p
          In the little mountain town where I live, a black bear gets one "strike". If it's found it town, it gets tagged and relocated. If any bear with a tag is caught again, it's killed.

          It really has me thinking...It isn't the bear in the wrong place, it's us people. I'm going to move because of this, but my moving isn't simple right now....
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      The problem with hunting as a way to control deek and elk populations is that hunters generally target the biggest, healthiest animals. Preditors tend to kill the sick, weak, injured and old...

      We'll have to wait a few hundred years to see how this will impact the gene pool for the deer.

      There's a problem with elk over-population where I live and there's a few ideas on how to handle it. I prefer the least popular idea, and that's to reintroduce wolves in the area.
      I watched an interesting documentary on the subject of reintroducing wolves in larger numbers.

      I think it was Yellowstone park (I could be wrong on the location), wolves were pretty much wiped out in large numbers because they were seen as a nuisance.

      What they found was the wolves controlled elk populations, If the elk were not controlled the whole eco system was messed up. Over populated elk would feed on small plants not allowing them to grow into full size trees & protecting the shores of rivers from washing out.

      The whole removal of wolves caused a chain reaction all the way down to fish not spawning in areas that once had protection from mature trees on river banks.

      They did small localized test allowing wolves back into the area & found the small trees actually growing & replacing dead trees, instead of elk striping the plants bare & killing the trees.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I watched an interesting documentary on the subject of reintroducing wolves in larger numbers.

        I think it was Yellowstone park (I could be wrong on the location), wolves were pretty much wiped out in large numbers because they were seen as a nuisance.

        What they found was the wolves controlled elk populations, If the elk were not controlled the whole eco system was messed up. Over populated elk would feed on small plants not allowing them to grow into full size trees & protecting the shores of rivers from washing out.

        The whole removal of wolves caused a chain reaction all the way down to fish not spawning in areas that once had protection from mature trees on river banks.

        They did small localized test allowing wolves back into the area & found the small trees actually growing & replacing dead trees, instead of elk striping the plants bare & killing the trees.
        This is pretty much the trouble we're having around here. They're actually having to fence off vegetation in the "wild" so the elk can't eat it all.

        And there was a study of bison in Yellowstone and they are much healthier since wolves were reintroduced...And even the grizzlies were better fed. The wolves would kill the bison, then the grizzlies chase the wolfs off...

        But...If you talk to just about any local around Yellowstone, they hate wolves with a passion because the wolves kill their livestock.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I watched an interesting documentary on the subject of reintroducing wolves in larger numbers.

        I think it was Yellowstone park (I could be wrong on the location), wolves were pretty much wiped out in large numbers because they were seen as a nuisance.

        What they found was the wolves controlled elk populations, If the elk were not controlled the whole eco system was messed up. Over populated elk would feed on small plants not allowing them to grow into full size trees & protecting the shores of rivers from washing out.

        The whole removal of wolves caused a chain reaction all the way down to fish not spawning in areas that once had protection from mature trees on river banks.

        They did small localized test allowing wolves back into the area & found the small trees actually growing & replacing dead trees, instead of elk striping the plants bare & killing the trees.

        Ecosystems are a delicate balance and everything plays an important part in the ecosystem in which it lives. Chain reactions will start no matter which element is effected. Even ants termites, and rodents, which many think have no purpose other than being nuisances, have been found to be needed in their own environments. We've managed to screw things up pretty bad by thinking we knew better than nature.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    That's human thought. Knock everything out to be convenient to us. This stupidity has started the 6th great extinction. I think we should try to control our own population numbers while we are worrying about everything else.

    I agree with that Kurt. Humans are not smart enough to be trusted to environmental control. We've done enough damage already to put the whole world of life forms (including ourselves) in jeopardy.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Like Thom, I live in NY too (although further south). I live in a development with few trees and lost of houses yet almost nightly we have deer in my backyard and running down our street - yes, right down the middle.

    The other day I was driving through town and two deer ran across the road to... well, who knows? There were no stands of trees where they were headed.

    And yes - it IS due to over building. Over the past 10 years (since 9-11) the population of city transplants coming to our area has lead to the building of about a dozen developments of houses and townhouses. I know we see them in my neighborhood (which was built in the early 70s) because across the street, where there USED to be some wooded acres now sits a new development built about 2 years ago.

    It's a shame really.

    But pretty much every hunter I know personally (I don't hunt) eats what they kill. I even get venison jerky, ground venison and a tenderloin from time to time from these friends and family members...

    Kurt - I like your idea where you are. I don't think we get wolves around here (don't hold me to that), but just the same, with the spate of new developments, any natural predators to the deer are also being pushed out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      Like Thom, I live in NY too (although further south). I live in a development with few trees and lost of houses yet almost nightly we have deer in my backyard and running down our street - yes, right down the middle.

      The other day I was driving through town and two deer ran across the road to... well, who knows? There were no stands of trees where they were headed.

      And yes - it IS due to over building. Over the past 10 years (since 9-11) the population of city transplants coming to our area has lead to the building of about a dozen developments of houses and townhouses. I know we see them in my neighborhood (which was built in the early 70s) because across the street, where there USED to be some wooded acres now sits a new development built about 2 years ago.

      It's a shame really.

      But pretty much every hunter I know personally (I don't hunt) eats what they kill. I even get venison jerky, ground venison and a tenderloin from time to time from these friends and family members...

      Kurt - I like your idea where you are. I don't think we get wolves around here (don't hold me to that), but just the same, with the spate of new developments, any natural predators to the deer are also being pushed out.

      Yeah...They aren't many places where wolves would work...But I believe they would do very well around here...They are native to this area, but were wiped out over 100 years ago. I think it would be good to bring them back and try to restore the natural order of things.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    These videos are all in the town I live in...And all of these elk are in town, not out in the "forest"...

    PS...I swear I've seen elk look both ways before crossing streets.


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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Kurt I agree, what works in one area or state may not be the best for another.
      Like Mike, every hunter I know hunts to put food on the table.
      The ones that start hunting for 'trophies' either don't last long or change their reason for hunting pretty quick. Now that's not saying any of them wouldn't be proud to get a trophy deer. But that's not their main reason for hunting.

      Mike, there hasn't been a wolf in NY in around 100 years.
      Now we do have an expanding population of Eastern Coyotes.
      It is believed that our Coyotes where Western Coyotes that breed with Wolf's in their migration east. When you look at the size of Western Coyotes compared to the size of Eastern Coyotes that seems very probable. I've seen Coyotes around here larger then a large German Shepard. We also now have a healthy population of Bobcats here. Moose are also making a comeback. For the first time in my life time, there will be a hunting season on Bear in parts of my county. There have also been reports of Mountain Lions in NY, though for some reason ENCON denies it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      These videos are all in the town I live in...And all of these elk are in town, not out in the "forest"...

      PS...I swear I've seen elk look both ways before crossing streets.

      Showdown In Elk Town - Human Planet, Cities, Preview - BBC One - YouTube

      Elk Rut in Estes Park, CRAZY & WILD - YouTube

      Holy Moses!

      Like I said, I have seen a deer or two on my street and ONCE saw them crossing the main street in town... but man, nothing like what you have LOL!

      We DO get at least one bear per year chased up a tree in the center of town. Bear is also an increasing "problem" in populated areas. Constant reports of bear rummaging through the garbage cans, trying to get at the BBQ grills, etc. As far as I know though, they are NOT killed (officially), but a home owner who feels they are an immediate threat have been known to shoot them.

      Thom, thanks for the clarification on the wolf question. I was not sure. I see a lot of red and gray fox around my area, but I don't think they are much of a predator to the deer...but who knows.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Thom, thanks for the clarification on the wolf question. I was not sure. I see a lot of red and gray fox around my area, but I don't think they are much of a predator to the deer...but who knows.
        No, a deer can kick the crap out of a fox
        The problem can be the coyotes though.
        They normally run in packs and because of their size, can take down a deer.
        They also tend to occupy the same areas as red fox.
        EDIT: Just wanted to add, that coyotes will normally go after the sick, small, or injured deer. They healthy ones can usually out run them and the bigger bucks can take them in a fight.


        Kurt, wolfs are native to NY also
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          No, a deer can kick the crap out of a fox
          The problem can be the coyotes though.
          They normally run in packs and because of their size, can take down a deer.
          They also tend to occupy the same areas as red fox.
          EDIT: Just wanted to add, that coyotes will normally go after the sick, small, or injured deer. They healthy ones can usually out run them and the bigger bucks can take them in a fight.


          Kurt, wolfs are native to NY also

          The coyotes here can be a problem. Every once in a while they'll form a pack and start howling. It happened just down the street a couple of weeks ago. Every dog in the neighborhood went crazy.

          And yep...Wolves are native to just about every State in the US. I'd like to see them back in the areas that can handle them. The biggest complaint here is from those worried about them attacking their pets or kids.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            The coyotes here can be a problem. Every once in a while they'll form a pack and start howling. It happened just down the street a couple of weeks ago. Every dog in the neighborhood went crazy.

            And yep...Wolves are native to just about every State in the US. I'd like to see them back in the areas that can handle them. The biggest complaint here is from those worried about them attacking their pets or kids.
            There's talk every now and then about reintroducing wolves in the Adirondacks. I'd like to see it, but then I live south of the park.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Holy Moses!

        Like I said, I have seen a deer or two on my street and ONCE saw them crossing the main street in town... but man, nothing like what you have LOL!

        .
        It's kind of funny...I consider myself an animal lover...But when one of the elk stop in the street so I can't drive, I'm yelling in my best Sam Kinison voice: "Shoot it! Shoot the *******!!! Kill it!"...

        The elk here are a big tourist attraction and the city leaders love them. The "problem" elk live a few miles away in the Rocky Mountain National Park.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          It's kind of funny...I consider myself an animal lover...But when one of the elk stop in the street so I can't drive, I'm yelling in my best Sam Kinison voice: "Shoot it! Shoot the *******!!! Kill it!"...

          The elk here are a big tourist attraction and the city leaders love them. The "problem" elk live a few miles away in the Rocky Mountain National Park.
          Interesting how being behind the wheel changes people. I have yelled the same stuff at many of the NY idiot drivers I encounter daily...

          If only everyone drove like me.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Interesting how being behind the wheel changes people. I have yelled the same stuff at many of the NY idiot drivers I encounter daily...

            If only everyone drove like me.

            To be fair...When I was driving a cab in Las Vegas, I was yelling "shoot the *******s!" at the human jay walkers too.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Great clips! Elk don't seem to have the same nasty temperament moose are famous for.

              At the end of the first clip the elk charges and the people run behind the truck. As the animal turned away I could almost hear him chuckling.

              I will fume at a person disrupting traffic but I'll sit for 10 minutes while a turtle gets across the road - or, usually, I'll get out of the car and help it get out of harm's way.

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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Great clips! Elk don't seem to have the same nasty temperament moose are famous for.

                At the end of the first clip the elk charges and the people run behind the truck. As the animal turned away I could almost hear him chuckling.

                I will fume at a person disrupting traffic but I'll sit for 10 minutes while a turtle gets across the road - or, usually, I'll get out of the car and help it get out of harm's way.

                kay
                Yeah...The elk aren't nearly as mean as moose are. And they aren't as flighty as deer. It's the deer around town that scare me because they'll just dash out in front of the car with little warning. The elk are much more kicked back.

                And if you heard a chuckle caused by an elk chasing away a tourist, it was probably me.

                I liked the short scene in the first video where the elk was checking out Taco Bell....It looked like he wanted a chalupa.

                I don't see elk every time I go out and there will be months (starting about now) where you might not see an elk in town, unless very heavy snow brings them down into the valley...But on the other hand, I've seen herds with over 100 elk wandering around town too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Hey, maybe another inexpensive ingredient for McRib.

      I'm just saying.


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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    ? I thought that the deer just party all night ?

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I've run across wolves many times while rock hunting - never was threatened by one of them. If people would learn how to act around animals in THEIR own territory, they wouldn't have to act like zombies and kill everything in their tracks.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Overpopulation by any species threatens the well being of theirs and others, it's a touchy subject, to let nature take it's toll or lend a helping hand
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  • Profile picture of the author Rick B
    My brother-in-law begs me to come visit him and eat the venison in his freezer. He lives in the Midwestern U.S. where the Deer chow down on the corn fields. The damn things are the size of horses and you can't drive 5 miles out in the countryside without seeing some.

    Let me tell you ... that corn fed deer is delicious! Tastes just like lean beef.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    I had to smile this morning...

    I am driving on the outskirts of town when suddenly, on the right side of the road, a deer makes her way on to the road, coming through a small stand of trees between some houses. I stopped the car to let her cross.

    Then another follows. And another. And yet another.

    17 in all - female and youngsters (no racks in the herd) just ambling across the street.

    About 2 miles further up the road there is a place where the early morning hunters park their cars and go in to the woods. It's bow season and I see the cars daily.

    A funny thought struck me. The other side of the street where the deer crossed is a Jack Nicklaus designed Golf course (The Mansion Ridge). I turned to my wife and said:

    "These deer are pretty smart. All the great hunters are 2 miles up the road, looking, stalking and coming up empty because all the deer are down here, heading to the golf course to shoot a round of golf."

    It made my morning...
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  • Profile picture of the author carlpond
    I still believe in the balance if nature. Everyone has a purpose here on earth. Everyone is here for a reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Rankin
    I hunt in west TX on a 2,200 acre deer lease. We have been on it for 5 years and we "manage" it by taking the bucks that lack stronger genes giving the young big bucks the opportunities for breeding. We also feed year round, corn and protien. We are trophy hunters but rarely are there trophies that get taken. Our impact has been very positive and we have always fed in an area that has long droughts and is hard for anything to scratch out an existance otherwise. The main reason I hunt, I really enjoy my buddy time and my kids love spending completly uninterupted time with me there where I can talk to them about whatever they want and they have my undivided attention. Two girls, Jaden and Jersey, 7&6 years old. When were out there, life slows to a crawl.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Jason Rankin View Post

      I hunt in west TX on a 2,200 acre deer lease. We have been on it for 5 years and we "manage" it by taking the bucks that lack stronger genes giving the young big bucks the opportunities for breeding. We also feed year round, corn and protien. We are trophy hunters but rarely are there trophies that get taken. Our impact has been very positive and we have always fed in an area that has long droughts and is hard for anything to scratch out an existance otherwise. The main reason I hunt, I really enjoy my buddy time and my kids love spending completly uninterupted time with me there where I can talk to them about whatever they want and they have my undivided attention. Two girls, Jaden and Jersey, 7&6 years old. When were out there, life slows to a crawl.
      A friend of mine who is heavy into hunting moved to Fredricksburg(?) about three years ago. He's always posting pictures on FB of good size bucks he lets walk. The only difference from what you posted above from what he tells me he does is maybe the trophy thing. He makes sure he has a full freezer before he starts thinking about trophy's.
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