This will make you think...

15 years ago

I HAVE seen it happen on a SMALL scale! Some stores practically CLOSE for one reason or another, food choices at restaurants get limited, etc... You have to start worrying about things you never considered, like how to reach people by phone, or store your food. When I have seen it happen it was because of lines getting cut, or the power going out. I have seen it happen in cities and counties for as much as like a week.

Steve

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Kay King 15 years ago

Steve - I read this book (without reading the forward by a political person) thinking it was a work of fiction.

It is fiction - and an absorbing story - but at the end I found the scenario is possible and is a known threat. That got my attention!

kay
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- waterotter 15 years ago
  
  This kinda reminds me of the Northeast Blackout in 2003.
  
  Northeast blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  
  I was affected by it. We were lucky to have friends who own an ice making business. They had the smarts to have it wired with back-up generators and lots of extra fuel on hand.
  
  I can remember emptying jerry cans trying to get enough gasoline to get back home, about a two hour trip at the time. I couldn't purchase gas at a gas station as they required electricity to run their pumps.
  
  Being in the city was mayhem as everyone was tying to get somewhere with out running out of fuel, but the intersections were crazy with the lights not working and people not abiding by the laws for such an event.
  
  Everything literally came to a standstill. Stores closed because they equipment stopped running - refrigeration/freezer units and cash registers.
  
  It was quite an experience to see the domino effect, but also to see how people came together to help each other.
  
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seasoned

15 years ago

Well, and this is only ONE of maybe five major times I saw this hit a rather large section.... I was once in Virgnia when hurricane isabel struck! I was at a hotel with rooms designed such that they oftn needed ELECTRICITY for lights! We were without power for days. I forget what even happened with food, I thnk I had to order from another city. But communications were hampered because their WHOLE system was hooked up to a backup PBX that only had like 8 hours of power. ANYWAY, for that weekend, AT LEAST, it was like robinson crusoe. Showering in the dark, no phones, no computers, etc...

Of course, in 1994, where I lived, we had a huge earthquake. NO WATER! NO GAS! NO ELECTRICITY for a while. If I wanted food, I had to go to another city. Home depot got some pallots of flashlight kits WITH BATTERIES, and they were bought out in NO time!

And it is when the power goes out that you find out how few people can do simple math! and FORGET about CREDIT CARDS!

Steve

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PhaedraDragon

15 years ago

I recall being in a blackout on the East Coast. Was a bit hard, mind you, as I was trying to deliver a load of household good, to an address. I was there when the street lights, traffic lights, and every thing else went out. Pretty scary, if you ask me. And to top it all off, I kept having people coming up and banging on my truck, to help them do things I and my truck could not possibly do. One guy even wanted me to stay put so he could finish reading something. Me? Stay put? I didn't stay put. I just kept driving until I found a place big enough to turn around in and park. Then I left the diesel running, crawled into the sleeper and went to sleep.
I wasn't worried about any one trying to steal fuel, nor was I worried about any one trying to steal any thing else.
I do got to say, that was one really crazy night.

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Patrician

15 years ago

Yes it is spooky to think about - during the y2k scare all these issues were considered. Supposedly every grid imaginable might be impacted by a tiny thing like a century changing numbers.

In the 1989 earthquake in SF we were without power for 5 days and on the 6th floor with no elevator and no lights in the halls it was a bummer going in and out.

At the time I was working for a pretty large Bank. Well, their ATMs were down because of the power outage and the big mucky muck in charge had fled to some other city and just left the bank in the dust in her mind.

What may surprise people is that the government threatened to revoke the bank's charter if they didn't get the ATMS on back up power within 24 hours. Well they made it happen but the moral to the story is that they are supposed to have a contingency plan including generators - by law.

... and the moral of this thread I would think is to be prepared for the unexpected. Hard to store gasoline but try to at least keep your tank full. Think about all the possible ramifications of a power outage that affects everything you take for granted. Have a stash of cash, food, batteries, etc.

sleep tight!

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HeySal

15 years ago

Sounds like a spooky book, Kay. We can hope it will stay fiction. Actually, I'm fairly well set up where I am to survive without power except there is no woodstove or fireplace in here and I think that's a deadly mistake in this day and age.

Don't forget water either - no municipal water in that situation. It's fascinating to know that most people wouldn't know where to get or how to purify water if the city supply was cut off. I am so grateful that I don't live in a major city. There's a lot to be said for being cut off from the rest of the world in times like that. All good. LOL. The best part is -- I live where I wouldn't have to stop my gem hunting hobby if I couldn't drive. Life is good here. Electric or not.

I would miss you people though. Of course, the stage would make us able to get around after all the people whose survival instincts were leashed to electronics died out. LOL.

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frankhill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Actually, I'm fairly well set up where I am to survive without power except there is no woodstove or fireplace in here and I think that's a deadly mistake in this day and age.

Look up rocket stove.

Frank

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by frankhill

Look up rocket stove.

Frank

I did, I like, I want

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frankhill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I did, I like, I want

In a real emergency you can build one out of a few bricks...the info is out there.

Frank

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by frankhill

In a real emergency you can build one out of a few bricks...the info is out there.

Frank

I just spent the last 1 1/2 hours reading and watching videos on them

I'm pretty sure I found what I want to heat my house starting next winter.
They look easy to build and the theory behind them is easy to understand.

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waterotter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I just spent the last 1 1/2 hours reading and watching videos on them

I'm pretty sure I found what I want to heat my house starting next winter.
They look easy to build and the theory behind them is easy to understand.

I like the concept also, but I don't think anyone would insure me for house insurance.

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by waterotter

I like the concept also, but I don't think anyone would insure me for house insurance.

Wasn't planning on telling them
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I just spent the last 1 1/2 hours reading and watching videos on them

I'm pretty sure I found what I want to heat my house starting next winter.
They look easy to build and the theory behind them is easy to understand.

Hey Thom...

While you're at it...check out the Dakota fire hole. It's more for camping and survival than heating your house, but it's the same principle as a rocket stove. They use far less wood than a typical camp fire, produce more heat with less smoke.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hey Thom...

While you're at it...check out the Dakota fire hole. It's more for camping and survival than heating your house, but it's the same principle as a rocket stove. They use far less wood than a typical camp fire, produce more heat with less smoke.

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I like it

Not very practical around where I live though.
Here when you need to dig a hole you grab a pick ax and pry bar before you grab a shovel. Think cobblestones, lots and lots of cobblestones

But I think anyone who even thinks about 'survival' should know how to make the Dakota hole. That's some real good stuff right there.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I like it

Not very practical around where I live though.
Here when you need to dig a hole you grab a pick ax and pry bar before you grab a shovel. Think cobblestones, lots and lots of cobblestones

But I think anyone who even thinks about 'survival' should know how to make the Dakota hole. That's some real good stuff right there.

Living in the Rockies isn't the best place for a Dakota hole either...There's a reason they are called the "Rocky" Mountains.

But...Knowing the technology is a good thing. You know on TV when you see a group of homeless standing around a 55 gallon drum with a fire to keep warm? If they would add a foot of an aluminum down-spout to the bottom, they'd get a lot more heat and need less fuel.

Same with a hobo stove. If you take a paint can, cut a hole in the bottom of the side and jam a soup can in it, you'll have a rocket stove you can take camping.

And if you make a Dakota hole, blast the vent hole with hot air from a hair dryer you can create enough heat to to forge some metals.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Living in the Rockies isn't the best place for a Dakota hole either...There's a reason they are called the "Rocky" Mountains.

But...Knowing the technology is a good thing. You know on TV when you see a group of homeless standing around a 55 gallon drum with a fire to keep warm? If they would add a foot of an aluminum down-spout to the bottom, they'd get a lot more heat and need less fuel.

Same with a hobo stove. If you take a paint can, cut a hole in the bottom of the side and jam a soup can in it, you'll have a rocket stove you can take camping.

And if you make a Dakota hole, blast the vent hole with hot air from a hair dryer you can create enough heat to to forge some metals.

In the first vid you posted the guy mentioned burning charcoal in one and how hot it got.
Paul Wheaton has an interesting site I found yesterday with a great article on the rocket stove and other things.
rocket stove mass heater
Following a couple of the links to forums there you can find all sorts of neat ways to save money and be self sufficient.

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Kay King 15 years ago

Hobo stove is similar to the old Boy Scout "can stove" (coffee can) that was a camping classic. I remember having to ask relatives to save large coffee cans for my boys because I don't drink coffee.
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- Thomas Wilkinson 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  I don't drink coffee.
  
  Boy is that creepy! Coffee going here every waking hour. Regular from wake up till noon. Decaf from noon till whenever.
  
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frankhill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

In the first vid you posted the guy mentioned burning charcoal in one and how hot it got.
Paul Wheaton has an interesting site I found yesterday with a great article on the rocket stove and other things.
***link look above***
Following a couple of the links to forums there you can find all sorts of neat ways to save money and be self sufficient.

Glad you found it!! Highly recommended reading..

Frank

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by frankhill

Glad you found it!! Highly recommended reading..

Frank

Excellent reading there. The link section is priceless also
Already found the Rocket heater forum
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Kurt

15 years ago

Another reason to go off-grid with solar &/or wind, at least partially.

In cold climates, I also suggest keeping a case or two of sterno and a bunch of candles, which can be burned inside for heat and cooking. Also, some tarps with some mylar emergency blankets and duct tape to section off part of a room so you don't have to heat as big of an area. Line the inside of the tarps with the mylar to reflect the heat back inside.

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Kay King

15 years ago

Kurt - don't know if wind turbines or solar systems would survive an EMP. What a survivalist would need is more than a good store of food. They would need seeds, fruit trees, breeding livestock - and a very old car or jeep, old motorcycle or simple bicycles. They would need to be situated below a water source to take advantage of gravity.

The book is fiction -the threat isn't.

Google the term

EMP potential

One of the results is the commission's report on the possibility and danger of the threat of electromagnetic pulse attack.

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ShayB 15 years ago

I've read the book. Scary stuff.

One thing that sticks in my mind is how two of the towns mentioned "reversed status" in the book. The one town that was of higher economic class had the higher-tech cars and gadgets that were useless after the EMP, and the citizens that had never done any sort of manual labor or mechanic work in their lives. The lower economic class town had the older cars that still ran after the EMP - and the know-how and mechanics to service them.

Amazing how things change, eh?
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Kurt - don't know if wind turbines or solar systems would survive an EMP. What a survivalist would need is more than a good store of food. They would need seeds, fruit trees, breeding livestock - and a very old car or jeep, old motorcycle or simple bicycles. They would need to be situated below a water source to take advantage of gravity.

The book is fiction -the threat isn't.

Google the term

EMP potential

One of the results is the commission's report on the possibility and danger of the threat of electromagnetic pulse attack.

My suggestion for solar/wind wasn't specifically for an EMP, but for grid related blackouts in general.

A survivalist would need a lot more than you listed...One is serious security/protection (guns/ammo) to protect those things in your list.

We can fortify our grids from EMPs, but people don't want to spend the money. If I were in charge, I think we have a pretty good lifestyle and would focus more on keeping what we have as opposed to make it "better".

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Kay King

15 years ago

It's been estimated it would cost $20 billion to harden our electrical grid and critical transportation services to protect them from an EMP attack. That's not that expensive when you consider the money we've spent on recent wars.

I agree about the protection - it would be critical to survival. I think it might be almost a tribal society for a time and think of all the nutjobs that would be off their meds

, too.

In the book, bullets become the new currency and are traded for goods.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's been estimated it would cost $20 billion to harden our electrical grid and critical transportation services to protect them from an EMP attack. That's not that expensive when you consider the money we've spent on recent wars.

I agree about the protection - it would be critical to survival. I think it might be almost a tribal society for a time and think of all the nutjobs that would be off their meds

, too.

In the book, bullets become the new currency and are traded for goods.

You posted as I was typing my last post...

I agree that $20 billion is NOTHING when considering risk vs gain. Plus, it would put people to work, so with that stimulous, it would cost even less in reality.

I can't find out exactly what components an EMP would attack...I wonder what would happen to electronics, etc, that weren't plugged in or are sitting in warehouses?

In a SHTF scenario, I'm not sure you'd ever want to trade ammo, as it may be used against you sometime.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Kurt - don't know if wind turbines or solar systems would survive an EMP. What a survivalist would need is more than a good store of food. They would need seeds, fruit trees, breeding livestock - and a very old car or jeep, old motorcycle or simple bicycles. They would need to be situated below a water source to take advantage of gravity.

The book is fiction -the threat isn't.

Google the term

EMP potential

One of the results is the commission's report on the possibility and danger of the threat of electromagnetic pulse attack.

A wind turbine, and solar probably would probably ride it out. Light bulbs and computers probably wouldn't. BASICALLY an EMP would degauss some things, and cause power surges. So if you had magnetic backups, like floppies, hard disk drives, etc.... they could be TOAST. Some sensitive equipment, like computers could be ALSO, but the drives in THEM may be wiped also.

Of course power is NO good without something to power. Computers are NO good without software available to run.

As for the y2k problem endangering the grid? Although I COULD see that happening with consumers, based on misbilling in checking overdue dates, I doubt it was EVER a danger for municipal concerns.

Steve

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Kurt

15 years ago

I just did a little research...The only numbers I could come up with is that it would cost $20 billion to fortify our enitire grid from an EMP.

EMP Attack Could Wipe Out U.S.

That's only $60 per person. And for a $1-2 each, $200-400 million, we can protect alot of the most vital pars. You'd think most people would feel that was a good investment. This isn't something we can't do something about and from a monetary and tech standpoint, it's relatively easy to fix.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

I just did a little research...The only numbers I could come up with is that it would cost $20 billion to fortify our enitire grid from an EMP.

EMP Attack Could Wipe Out U.S.

That's only $60 per person. And for a $1-2 each, $200-400 million, we can protect alot of the most vital pars. You'd think most people would feel that was a good investment. This isn't something we can't do something about and from a monetary and tech standpoint, it's relatively easy to fix.

How would you do that? I mean a faraday sheild or something would cot a lot and be impractical. If a magnetic pulse crosses a wire, it WILL generate a voltage. If that fact were to suddenly stop being true, almost all electronics and electricity in the world would STOP. And if the pulse is high enough, it WILL cause a surge. If the urge is high enough, it WILL destroy electronics.

I think the best anyone can do is have surge protectors, and isolate the plants, so that an EMP will have minimal impact, and we can ride it out.

The cheapest way for the surge protectors is likely a home protector, and I believe THEY cost about $500 for a home. Considering that 50 lower grade local surge protectors may cost about as much, it may be a bargain.

As for the isolating they have been talking about it. They wanted to handle power distribution, and take care of plant failures. It works as long as there isn't a failure that cascades over the network that basically does the OPPOSITE of what they wanted. Ideally, they should reduce the need, build up plants, and sever the connection. That probably won't happen for several reasons.

MAN, it is a good thing I don't trust the doctors and pharmacists, etc... Hearing all this stuff about not being able to use credit cards, I realized... NO prescriptions! Probably NO deliveries! WOW! This could be bad EVEN for many that CAN rough it and be off the grid!

Steve

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seasoned

15 years ago

BTW localized EMPs happen in nature ALL THE TIME! It is called LIGHTNING! That has SO much power that if it comes even as far away as FEET from a line, it may cause a HUGE current in that line. The effect? Fuses/circuitbreakers are blown/thrown, computers and other low voltage circuitry may be damaged, lightbulbs may burn out, etc... Lightning is VERY localized, so it can even MELT PLASTIC! NOT the lightning itself! NOT the EMP! But the heat caused by the extreme overload from the EMP YARDS away. If it happens near a key grid point, powerplants may consider it a short or overload, and SHUT DOWN! And that isn't conjecture, or theory, or something out of a book. It is history. It has happened in the US all the way from one house getting some damaged components to entire parts of the country being shut down. That IS, after all, how the powergrid REALLY gets into the news. And the localized threat is why they sell surge protectors. Even SURGE protectors can get fried.

BTW an onoff switch only works to a point. Air is one of the BEST insulators, and the one most often used in switches. Yet when the power differential between the sky and the earth gets high enough, it can spark for MILES! And that is LIGHTNING also! So if the EMP is powerful enough, NONE of those switches will mean ANYTHING! Of course, I DOUBT a nation would ever attempt THAT type of surge. It would probably burn out the wiring, and not be carried very far. The rest of the grid may hum along.

Steve

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frankhill 15 years ago

The sun can generate an EMP.... there was a big one in the late 1800's.

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Patrician

15 years ago

Jesse Ventura has/had a TV show about Conspiracies and he showed the emergency digs for the 'elite' in this country. So rest assured some people would be safe - don't worry your government will be working even if your toaster doesn't.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Jesse Ventura has/had a TV show about Conspiracies and he showed the emergency digs for the 'elite' in this country. So rest assured some people would be safe - don't worry your government will be working even if your toaster doesn't.

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Toasters should be able to survive an EMP. If they get enough power, they'll keep working.

Steve

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Kay King

15 years ago

Steve - hard to get enough power when the power grid is fried

We used to make toast on a little metal contraption that worked on a camp stove. Great toast!

As for protection - it's not that hard.

It involves enclosing every electronic component with a metallic cage that blocks out electromagnetic waves.

Protection is not high tech - or science fiction - it's a matter of creating a barrier the pulse can't penetrate.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Steve - hard to get enough power when the power grid is fried

We used to make toast on a little metal contraption that worked on a camp stove. Great toast!

As for protection - it's not that hard.

Protection is not high tech - or science fiction - it's a matter of creating a barrier the pulse can't penetrate.

Well, the toaster doesn't care WHERE the power comes from!

I said faraday shield, I meant to say cage. And YEAH, it is simple. It is used ALL over! TV SETS, RADIOS, MICROWAVE OVENS, ETC.... WHY? Because some things are affected by, or in the microwave ovens case, create, magnetic radiation. THIS is why the problems they spoke about in the 70s with microwaves aren't such a concern. And it is 19th century, some argue that it is 18th century, technology, so it ISN'T SCI-FI. But it CAN be expensive to protect wires, etc..., and could be difficult.

Steve

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HeySal

15 years ago

It would be pretty off and on to be able to dig one of those here, too - but sure is worth knowing how to do. There isn't much wood here and if you can get a spot where you can dig the holes, it would save on wood needs --- as well as being safer to burn considering how dry the terrain is and how much wind blows.

Good find Kurt.

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Roaddog

15 years ago

This is great stuff actually...rocket stove/Dakota hole...
Been looking for a way to heat this house that won't cost a fortune.

I didn't build this place and I'm constantly pissin off Old Girl...walkin' around going "****in idiots"...replaced half the windows and can't afford (at the moment) to replace the other half. So I don't use the gas heaters

Got all the way down ta 40 last night....might not sound low to you mountain folk, but that's pretty cold for coastal San Dog. Near record lows here.

Rocket Stove looks pretty good.

Dakota holes may come in handy later...after the Zombie Apocalypse and the shotguns and Glocks are loaded.

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Kay King 15 years ago

Boy is that creepy! Coffee going here every waking hour. Regular from wake up till noon. Decaf from noon till whenever.

I know - it's a flaw. I love the smell of it - can't stand the taste. I just go straight to caffeine pills
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Kurt

15 years ago

Here's a video that shows how to make a small rocket stove from cans. It's a good idea for anyone into camping, etc. Just having the knowledge could come in handy some day: