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First drone arrest of a citizen

by seasoned
20 replies
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Court Upholds Domestic Drone Use in Arrest of American Citizen - US News and World Report

Apparently, people have trouble covering all the details, so here are a few that are missing:

Apparently, this guy is a "soveriegn citizen", who basically believes we should have the same rights as the amish. The amish are left alone, because they promise to effectively be their own government. There is apparently a law that goes back over 100 years that covers them and few others.

He has a large farm, and a neighbors cows came in and started eating. He wanted the neighbor to reimburse him. The neighbor refused, so he did also, and that is SUPPOSEDLY when this bit started.

I don't know where the drones came into play, outside of facilitating the forceful arrest, but District Judge Joel Medd apparently didn't either.

Anyway, they found out that the farmer had guns, DUH! They asked his wife where they were, and believed she knowingly lied. So they arrested both of them, and later the kids. In another article, it says:

When police first showed up on the scene, they tasered and arrested Mr. Brossart after he refused to surrender the cows. His wife was also arrested for supposedly "misleading" the police as to where the "illegal weapons" were. Police arrived again the following day and were chased away by Brossart's armed, adult children.

That's when police reciprocated with a warrant, a SWAT team, a bomb squad and an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, courtesy of Homeland Security. The spy drone was able to give the County Sheriff aerial footage of the property on his laptop and tell if any of the residents were armed. After a total of 16 hours of standoff, the SWAT team raided the house and arrested Brossart's sons on "terrorizing" and other charges.
Get that? They went on his property, etc... and didn't even have a warrant!

ALL we need is MECHANICAL robots, led by a megalomaniac computer, and we have "terminator". For now, we have to settle for something more like "metropolis", or "the time machine". It IS starting to look more like 1984.

I wonder how much will be proven right. When I was a kid, I heard a "prophecy" that said that things would hit the fan between 1995 and 2029. A few others, going back hundreds of years, say between like 2006 and maybe 2076. And frankly, it looks like they could all come true. The one I heard about when a key person would be born(1960s) will expire in perhaps 17 years, we'll probably find out before 15 years are up though. The one about the pope is up in the air, but the last pope is supposed to be the next one, and the current one is pretty old. Of course, I am disregarding the 2012 "prophecy", but there IS still time for that. ONE person dies, long enough before the 2012 time, and bam... Edcar cayce, the bible, nostradamus, 2012, etc... could all end up being right. All is in play. There IS another prediction that has been proven potentially right. The belief was that it would be proposed later, but it is in the works NOW. The expiration on THAT is 2017(IIRC). But THAT is too political. There is ANOTHER that was proven right decades ago, but ALAS, too political.

Frankly, I don't care if they are proven wrong. The current similarities are bad enough. The threat of hyper inflation, culture battles, country battles, the middle east turmoil, immorality,persecution, etc... are all pretty bad. And if the next pope dies after being established, and another pope is elected, then several predictions will be proven wrong.

They create TONS of movies, and it hits the news, and they STILL ignore it. Just last friday, I heard about a guy discussing this DECADES ago. Everyone FOUGHT some key parts, and he warned people that they would, but they all practically forgot about it. So much for the famous battle cry. I knew about SOME of it, since a person listened to him, and got another to head up the cry, and they worked to ridicule him, but I didn't know the earlier history.

Steve
  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

    ...he refused to surrender the cows...

    ...a warrant, a SWAT team, a bomb squad and an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, courtesy of Homeland Security

    ...a total of 16 hours of standoff...
    Why were the police getting involved in what is almost certainly a civil matter anyway, let alone escalating things to such a ridiculous level so rapidly (over 6 bloody cows, no less!)?

    Talk about MASSIVE overkill! Methinks someone need to lay off the action movies for a while! :rolleyes:

    As for the drones, if you (a generic you, not you personally, Steve) are okay with the government using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state outside of the US, then why wouldn't you also support the government in using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state within US borders too? In fact, having them deployed against all those bad people near you, instead of far away, should make you feel more secure, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      Were were the police getting involved in what is almost certainly a civil matter anyway, let alone escalating things to such a ridiculous level so rapidly (over 6 bloody cows, no less!)?

      Talk about MASSIVE overkill! Methinks someone need to lay off the action movies for a while! :rolleyes:

      As for the drones, if you (a generic you, not you personally, Steve) are okay with the government using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state outside of the US, then why wouldn't you also support the government in using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state within US borders too? In fact, having them deployed against all those bad people near you, instead of far away, should make you feel more secure, right?
      A key part MIGHT be that he was a "sovereign citizen". They aren't amish, but want to be treated as one. THEY believe that everyone in the US is BORN a sovereign citizen, and SIGNS AWAY the right. As such, they are not supposed to have social security cards, or drivers licenses. I don't know how they do a lot of the things they do, but supposedly they do. So they suffer many of the inconveniences that amish people do.

      Since they are NOT amish, they aren't covered by the law the amish are covered by. Police might treat them as criminals. They don't pay taxes, for example.

      The following is HEAVILY biased and some things are inaccurate, but shows how they are treated and is another source for what I am saying:

      Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post


      Were were the police getting involved in what is almost certainly a civil matter anyway, let alone escalating things to such a ridiculous level so rapidly (over 6 bloody cows, no less!)?

      Talk about MASSIVE overkill! Methinks someone need to lay off the action movies for a while! :rolleyes:

      As for the drones, if you (a generic you, not you personally, Steve) are okay with the government using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state outside of the US, then why wouldn't you also support the government in using them to surveil and/or kill people deemed enemies of the state within US borders too? In fact, having them deployed against all those bad people near you, instead of far away, should make you feel more secure, right?


      Can't believe someone in Ireland with all the Irish history of that land talking about "security by government".

      This has to be tongue-in-cheek.

      Maybe a citizen that has accepted the way of life in the village , which was a prison that operated like "normal" society, like in the 60's british t.v. show THE PRISONER.

      Hope Stepford wife comes out of hypnosis.


      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
        I have to agree with Thomas - this is a civil matter, and should have been conducted as a civil matter with a summons or peaceable court order - don't turn it into another Ruby Ridge...we're talking about a few head of cattle here...
        (the worst they could do is hang 'em for cattle rustlin')

        and I seem to remember one of the old Irish penal laws (in one form or another) until the early 20th century, where if a Protestant fancied the horse of a Catholic Irishman, he only needed to demand the horse, and pay the man 5 pounds - whether he wanted to sell the horse or whether that was a fair price or not...(I do not have all facts or dates present)

        -The statute which prohibited Irish Catholics from owning any horse worth more
        --than 5 pounds led to more than one death. Protestants would see a Catholic with a
        --fine horse which he had probably raised himself. They would promptly approach
        --him and offer him 5 pounds when the horse was worth far more than that, but
        --since the Catholic had to declare the value to be 5 pounds or less in order to own
        --the horse - he would be required by law to give it up. There are stories of English
        --soldiers shooting to death any Catholic who refused to sell his horse for 5 pounds.
        Now that sucks...

        Slainte'
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        • Profile picture of the author Thomas
          Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

          Can't believe someone in Ireland with all the Irish history of that land talking about "security by government".

          This has to be tongue-in-cheek.
          LOL. Of course it was tongue-in-cheek... did you not see the smiley face?

          What I was commenting on was the fact that news of drone wars against "foreign enemies" is received with rah-rah chest-thumping approval but, when the same technology is then logically (from the State's point-of-view) employed against "domestic enemies" too, it's met with horror and outrage.

          In other words, someone who cries "Yeah! Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!" when people in far-off lands are on the receiving end of the technology have precious little basis for complaint when that same technology is also applied to enemies of the state (much) closer to home (as it always and inevitably is).

          (For what it's worth, most of my working life has been spent in the area of state security, but that's a story for another time.)

          Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

          and I seem to remember one of the old Irish penal laws (in one form or another) until the early 20th century, where if a Protestant fancied the horse of a Catholic Irishman, he only needed to demand the horse, and pay the man 5 pounds - whether he wanted to sell the horse or whether that was a fair price or not...(I do not have all facts or dates present)
          What you probably don't know is that many a poor Protestant gentleman met with a dreadful accident soon after acquiring a fine new horse, which promptly ran away to parts unknown, apparently taking many of the poor gentleman's possessions with him.

          Incidentally, as terrible as they were, the Penal Laws actually helped drive popular support for groups like the Irish Republican Brotherhood here and, in the US, organisations like the Fenian Brotherhood... which led to the initial creation of the IRA... which led to the Irish War of Independence, during which most of the so-called 'Protestant Ascendancy' in Ireland had all of their property razed to the ground. So I guess it kinda backfired on them in quite a substanial way.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

            LOL. Of course it was tongue-in-cheek... did you not see the smiley face?

            What I was commenting on was the fact that news of drone wars against "foreign enemies" is received with rah-rah chest-thumping approval but, when the same technology is then logically (from the State's point-of-view) employed against "domestic enemies" too, it's met with horror and outrage.

            In other words, someone who cries "Yeah! Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!" when people in far-off lands are on the receiving end of the technology, have little basis for complaint when that same technology is also applied to enemies of the state (much) closer to home.

            (For what it's worth, most of my working life has been spent in the area of state security, but that's a story for another time.)



            What you probably don't know is that many a poor Protestant gentleman met with a dreadful accident soon after acquiring a fine new horse, which promptly ran away to parts unknown, apparently taking many of the poor gentleman's possessions with him.
            Well, I for one wasn't going rah rah, but I am OK with its use against a justified foreign enemy on foreign enemy soil. For the record, this does NOT mean europe, most of asia, etc.... HECK, the part of asia I might otherwise be OK with is such that I would rather use diplomacy and other tactics and as a last resort real people. Besides, most are misled, or friendly. And ireland is certainly no target as see it. I understand where the IRA was, and wouldn't have fought them either. If britain assked me for help, and I were king of the US, I would say ireland is its own country, mad at past transgression, and they should do it themselves.

            BUT, likewise, I wouldn't sanction its use domestically. Actually, the drone shown by iran looks VERY similar to how I remember the one in terminator. In the end of the TV series, they show the final military takeover by skynet. Such a drone was instrumental in doing so.
            I don't believe for a moment that the military computers would act self aware, but they really don't have to. I also don't believe the computers will start making robots, but they really don't have to. All the parts that ARE needed are apparently ALREADY THERE. And that doesn't bode well for ANYONE. It may even be worse than iran getting the nuclear bomb. We have to hope they get more serious about WHEN to use it.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Thomas
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Well, I for one wasn't going rah rah...
              None of the above was directed at you personally, Steve. I was generalising.

              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              Actually, the drone shown by iran looks VERY similar to how I remember the one in terminator. In the end of the TV series, they show the final military takeover by skynet. Such a drone was instrumental in doing so.
              Drone technology (meaning remote-controlled aircraft) isn't really that new, or even that expensive (even the Irish Defence Forces, whose ENTIRE annual budget is less than U.S.$1.5 billion, operate a number of them). If you wanted, you could probably make one yourself (the drone itself is very cheap; the cost comes from what the military pack into them).

              The only thing that might change is the computer technology onboard. The drones themselves won't evoke any kind of Skynet-scenario... maybe the computers will though.

              (Funny story: If they lose contact with their controller, drones generally enter a "return home" mode in which they fly to pre-programmed recovery point. Usually, this is where their controller is located. In Ireland, it's a military base just outside Dublin, where personnel are trained to fly them, and the drones themselves are stored.

              Abour 3 or 4 years ago, one such drone was deployed to south-eastern Chad to assist Irish peacekeepers there. However, someone, whose pay-packet will probably be hurting for a VERY long time, forgot to change "home" from Dublin to Chad and, shortly thereafter, the drone, which had a flight time of about 3 hours, was last seen gracefully heading out across the Sahara, beginning it's heroic attempt to fly "home" to Dublin, more than 3,000 miles away... )
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              • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
                Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

                None of the above was directed at you personally, Steve. I was generalising.



                Drone technology (meaning remote-controlled aircraft) isn't really that new, or even that expensive (even the Irish Defence Forces, whose ENTIRE annual budget is less than U.S.$1.5 billion, operate a number of them). If you wanted, you could probably make one yourself (the drone itself is very cheap; the cost comes from what the military pack into them).

                The only thing that might change is the computer technology onboard. The drones themselves won't evoke any kind of Skynet-scenario... maybe the computers will though.

                (Funny story: If they lose contact with their controller, drones generally enter a "return home" mode in which they fly to pre-programmed recovery point. Usually, this is where their controller is located. In Ireland, it's a military base just outside Dublin, where personnel are trained to fly them, and the drones themselves are stored.

                Abour 3 or 4 years ago, one such drone was deployed to south-eastern Chad to assist Irish peacekeepers there. However, someone, whose pay-packet will probably be hurting for a VERY long time, forgot to change "home" from Dublin to Chad and, shortly thereafter, the drone, which had a flight time of about 3 hours, was last seen gracefully heading out across the Sahara, beginning it's heroic attempt to fly "home" to Dublin, more than 3,000 miles away... )
                Sounds like a plot for a new Pixar movie (WALL-E meets 'Flight of the Phoenix' and a little "Finding Nemo" thrown in for good measure )
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

                None of the above was directed at you personally, Steve. I was generalising.
                OK, I was just saying where I stood, I didn't take it personally.

                Drone technology (meaning remote-controlled aircraft) isn't really that new, or even that expensive (even the Irish Defence Forces, whose ENTIRE annual budget is less than U.S.$1.5 billion, operate a number of them). If you wanted, you could probably make one yourself (the drone itself is very cheap; the cost comes from what the military pack into them).

                The only thing that might change is the computer technology onboard. The drones themselves won't evoke any kind of Skynet-scenario... maybe the computers will though.
                Yeah, I know that. STILL, even SPY technology is now easier, and dangerous. THAT is apparantly all they used HERE.

                (Funny story: If they lose contact with their controller, drones generally enter a "return home" mode in which they fly to pre-programmed recovery point. Usually, this is where their controller is located. In Ireland, it's a military base just outside Dublin, where personnel are trained to fly them, and the drones themselves are stored.

                Abour 3 or 4 years ago, one such drone was deployed to south-eastern Chad to assist Irish peacekeepers there. However, someone, whose pay-packet will probably be hurting for a VERY long time, forgot to change "home" from Dublin to Chad and, shortly thereafter, the drone, which had a flight time of about 3 hours, was last seen gracefully heading out across the Sahara, beginning it's heroic attempt to fly "home" to Dublin, more than 3,000 miles away... )
                Actually, the fly home deal is the best way. Better to be home before you run out of power, than to end up in enemy territory. And power, radio blockage, or general failure can cause such a thing to be the best way. Funny story though. OK, I guess it will end up in the ocean, HOPEFULLY. 8-(

                Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

          I have to agree with Thomas - this is a civil matter, and should have been conducted as a civil matter with a summons or peaceable court order - don't turn it into another Ruby Ridge...we're talking about a few head of cattle here...
          (the worst they could do is hang 'em for cattle rustlin')

          and I seem to remember one of the old Irish penal laws (in one form or another) until the early 20th century, where if a Protestant fancied the horse of a Catholic Irishman, he only needed to demand the horse, and pay the man 5 pounds - whether he wanted to sell the horse or whether that was a fair price or not...(I do not have all facts or dates present)


          Now that sucks...

          Slainte'
          Yeah, things like THIS created the IRA! Irish were generally CATHOLIC! Protestants, or more specifically, ANGLICAN, were generally BRITISH subjects. Who knows WHY they made it apparently reilgious, but I doubt it was. And such behaviour isn't befitting EITHER religion.

          BESIDES, not selling a horse does NOT mean IT is worth more! A horse could be worth a BILLION dollars if it gets you to a meeting in time to make you that much, even f its normal sales price is only $3! NOBODY has something just to have it. Right now, I have a car doing NOTHING! I usually drive it for FREE(well, I PAY for the gas, etc....). Until last friday, I was PAID to drive it for a few months, and needed it. If someone paid me the book value or 3 times that one sunday, I would have to DECLINE! NOT because IT was worth so much, but because its use was worth so much MORE then.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Yeah, things like THIS created the IRA! Irish were generally CATHOLIC! Protestants, or more specifically, ANGLICAN, were generally BRITISH subjects. Who knows WHY they made it apparently reilgious, but I doubt it was. And such behaviour isn't befitting EITHER religion.

            BESIDES, not selling a horse does NOT mean IT is worth more! A horse could be worth a BILLION dollars if it gets you to a meeting in time to make you that much, even f its normal sales price is only $3! NOBODY has something just to have it. Right now, I have a car doing NOTHING! I usually drive it for FREE(well, I PAY for the gas, etc....). Until last friday, I was PAID to drive it for a few months, and needed it. If someone paid me the book value or 3 times that one sunday, I would have to DECLINE! NOT because IT was worth so much, but because its use was worth so much MORE then.

            Steve
            Ah, but if I was to knock on your door, and say, "well there boyo, that's a very nice BMW you have there in your driveway...I quite fancy that - here's 5 pounds - where are my keys and title?

            You might be a little reluctant...you might even feel a little 'put-off'
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

              Ah, but if I was to knock on your door, and say, "well there boyo, that's a very nice BMW you have there in your driveway...I quite fancy that - here's 5 pounds - where are my keys and title?

              You might be a little reluctant...you might even feel a little 'put-off'
              WOW, I think you misunderstood me! I was saying that such a worthless offer was NOT christian or catholic, and that the reasoning that you would sell something worth $5 or less for $5 was DUMB!

              I ALSO said that it isn't what it is worth in value by ITSELF, but what I could/should do with it AT THE MOMENT.

              Maybe the horse is a pet and is the only horse you have had that had such a great attitude. Maybe it is like a FRIEND. HECK, what if it is your last horse? You KNOW you couldn't/shouldn't buy one from a catholic, and the protestants would possibly KILL you for asking, or simply buy it back.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                WOW, I think you misunderstood me! I was saying that such a worthless offer was NOT christian or catholic, and that the reasoning that you would sell something worth $5 or less for $5 was DUMB!

                I ALSO said that it isn't what it is worth in value by ITSELF, but what I could/should do with it AT THE MOMENT.

                Maybe the horse is a pet and is the only horse you have had that had such a great attitude. Maybe it is like a FRIEND. HECK, what if it is your last horse? You KNOW you couldn't/shouldn't buy one from a catholic, and the protestants would possibly KILL you for asking, or simply buy it back.

                Steve
                Oh, no...you're not getting away that easy...you owe me a BMW - where do I send my $5?

                Or do I have to sick my drones on you...
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate View Post

                  Oh, no...you're not getting away that easy...you owe me a BMW - where do I send my $5?

                  Or do I have to sick my drones on you...
                  Sorry, I don't have a BMW. I donated my VW. It will be a while before I get a new car, and YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!

                  Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    In any event, I feel it is overkill as well.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
    I will pipe in here regarding the sovereign citizen thing.

    There is merit to some aspects of their claims. While I personally have not engaged in any of the procedures to "become" sovereign. I HAVE participated in a process called "Accepted For Value" several times along with familiy members. I have witness first hande two successes with it. In both cases the accounts were reduced by the specific amounts we submitted. One amount being significantly large.

    SO...the takeaway is...the only way that process could work is if the things they claim are working behind the scenes...are in fact in existance behind the scenes

    The Sovereign movement as a whole still seems to be loose and unorganized ...and probably because not enough is understood yet about how things "really work" behind the scenes.

    One thing is for certain...things do not work exactly the way you've been taught. The "Authorities" can talk all they want about stuff like this being fake...I know, that they are lying.

    Hey but thats just my experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post


      SO...the takeaway is...the only way that process could work is if the things they claim are working behind the scenes...are in fact in existance behind the scenes

      The Sovereign movement as a whole still seems to be loose and unorganized ...and probably because not enough is understood yet about how things "really work" behind the scenes.

      One thing is for certain...things do not work exactly the way you've been taught. The "Authorities" can talk all they want about stuff like this being fake...I know, that they are lying.

      Hey but thats just my experience.


      Boy is that the truth.



      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    It's not just using drones that bother the hell out of me about this one. The guy was repeatedly tasered. Tasers ares supposed to be to stop dangerous people without a kill. They are using them as torture devices and that has got to stop.

    I'm sorry. I love my country, but my government has become the most frightening organization on the planet.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      It's not just using drones that bother the hell out of me about this one. The guy was repeatedly tasered. Tasers ares supposed to be to stop dangerous people without a kill. They are using them as torture devices and that has got to stop.

      I'm sorry. I love my country, but my government has become the most frightening organization on the planet.
      Sorry if I didn't push that so much. The drones are just one tool. My references to the scifi films and books was just to show how similar it is. A friend just sent me ANOTHER fil about Agenda 21. It showed how people are being forced off their land by a dozen groups that have been given federal level access to 16% of this country. Of course, the plan is world wide. Who knows WHAT the reasons are for this guy being forced off his land.

      I have met some "sovereign citizens".(dozens) They are NOT scammers or litigators. They are certainly NOT terrorists. They just want to be LEFT ALONE! As I said in the first post, treated like amish. They use technology and are in the current day and often the normal population, but otherwise, INVISIBLE. Effectively "off the grid". ICSM. I have gone to some meetings. I even got a couple books about it. So, as I said, wikipedia is BIASED. Probably written by some government hack.

      That farmer may have had ACRES of crops DESTROYED! Cows aren't little. Just WALKING can do damage, and they were probably hungry. It is reasonable that he asked for compensation. The cops should have said "Sir, you didn't fence off your cows, so you should pay him for the damage/loss. That is NOT a police matter.". The cows are basically COLLATERAL! If he gave the cows back, what guarantee doe he have that he will be paid? The cows are probably worthmore than what he is asking, so it should be an easy choice!

      All of this is scary. I hope, if I see it, that the people will rise up and fight it. If they do, I will be happy to join in. If not, I may still find a way. I almost wish I had kept in touch with some people I knew that really were a nuisance. Still, sometimes....

      It is about as open as it could be, whch makes it even MORE scary. A couple guys get together and write a book. NO big deal. Later, they get a bit too gutsy and have an international UN conference with 18000 people. Later, in the US, FOUR presidents have gone on record as facilitating it. And today, DOZENS of agencies, some federal and some merely federally funded and assisted, are working to implement it. And it sounds GREAT! The titles, and goals, sound like something I would LOVE! THEN, you see HOW, and YIKES! But, I think YOU spoke about this. You certainly spoke of some of the goals. That anyone in the US could agree to it is something. The RICH will STILL be rich. The POOR will still be POOR. The poor will simply have fewer options, and there will be more of them.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeUK
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