by art72
76 replies
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Hey All,

Generally keep my personals locked up, and far from the public eye...

However, I am facing some serious issues with my 18 yr old son, and seeking means to understand the humility he is now causing his family (myself included), and more importantly, himself.

So, here's the short version, roughly 15 months ago, my son decided to run away, he was then 17 yrs old.. At this time, we chalked it up as teenage angst, and we retrieved him from a his friends house after being blatantly lied to of his whereabouts by the Mother who was actually harboring him, as a under-aged run-a-way.

Now there was no real reason for his actions, aside from the fact we were undergoing some tough financial setbacks. No arguments, no ill-relations or misunderstandings, or any logical reason we as parents could conclude for his decision to bail the first time. And I stand firm on the fact that we are pretty damn liberal, young at heart, and all-around cool parents, at least according to our other children and their friends.

After retrieving him from his friends house, he admitted his actions were impart caused by outside influences, and stated that his friends were encouraging him to run-a-way, move in with them, and to do and be whomever he wanted to be, as he was almost 18 anyway.

My wife and I have always tried to encourage him to pursue his passions, his dreams, and to always just be himself.

Ok, so at this time, to our knowledge anyway, there were no drugs or such at the core of his need to run away or simply put, any real reason for ditching his family.

Hell, I am an encyclopedia on addiction, as I lived many of my teenage years in complete oblivion, and chose to never hide my past from my children. I felt it was great teaching to educate them from non-bias standpoint, and guide them accordingly. And in being the example in overcoming any afflictions in life.

Plus, my son was fortunate not to have been raised in the environment I was, in that regard.

As a direct result of my upbringing, I am very liberal (i.e. tatooes, piercings, tabacco, little experimentation, weed, etc..) so none of the pieces seem to fit when he ran away. -It's not like he was imprisoned by our rules or any strict mental or physical beatings upon his choices to have certain freedoms and liberties; long hair, piercings, and well, being of a freedom fighter mentality, as was I, and remain to believe we are entitled, despite what most may say, do, or think.

In writing this, I apologize, as my mind is just scrambling for answers as to the news we just received. I am praying I don't drive across (3) state lines, and serious hurt the person I am about to introduce... a person whom has since relocated with our son to South Carlina from our home in South Florida... and perhaps, for good reason... but we'll get to that in a minute.

Roughly two months after the initial running away, and he came back, I was focused on assembled a business for my son and I to run together, nothing rocket science or anything, but a mobile detailing business, that I had hoped would create a Father and Son bond, and inspire the entrepreneur in him that has always lived in me, by offering him his first self-employment opportunity. I did all the work, set it up, built the rig, artwork, website, business cards, etc... by his own choice, he was of little participation, unfortunately.

So, for any who have made it this far, I'll try to get to the point. Roughly two months after he ran-away the first time, he up and bailed again. No discussion, no arguments, no problems between he and I, or with his mom, sisters, at least that I am aware of, nothing. No reason to skip out.

This time, I let him go.

Figured he would learn the hard way, like many of us, and he'd be back, no big deal.

Plus, he was maybe 30 days from his eighteenth birthday, so most of our friends suggested that once he turned 18, he could just leave anyway, so why force him to stay, right?

Indeed, a mistake, no doubt.

Naturally, we contacted and he and I had some rather harsh words, I called him out and offered him a resolve if he thought he was man enough, and what not in trying to understand his issues... I really felt as his friend and his father, I was in the least entitled to know why he left again without warning.

Nope, just... a casual well "I'm not coming back." -and a bunch of hyped up sarcasms, and words he would never say to my face, without us going behind the ole tool shed, so to speak. Which btw has never happened, and I am proud of that fact. We've always communicated rather well, which is what is really f'ing with my head at this point.

So, fast forward 10-11 months, we've barely spoken, aside from a short message here or there on FB, which seems to be his only mode of communication. He has no phone, no job, no education, no trade skills... this we've established through our short notes to one another, and through his sisters, etc...

Though I hate mention it, I do believe he suffers from a mild learning disorder that has never been fully diagnosed, but I believe is form of mild A.D.D. -Though suggested, we as parents were always against putting him on any ridalin or adarol, as I suffered some mild nervous conditions that I believe were a direct relation to being prescribed prozac in my youth.

So, no intent to start a debate about A.D.D meds, just sayin,' he is a bit lacking in the learning dept and I do not believe in teaching our children to rely on prescription drugs, at all!

Here it is March 9th, my second oldest daughter's 17th birthday... and I wake to our 14 year old daughter screaming; "OMG, No F'ing Way" whereby, the words; "Dad you're not gonna believe this," soon followed. -Yes, my teenagers cuss, and my house often sounds like that of the Osbournes.:rolleyes:

Today, we learn our beloved son has just had his first child yesterday. A baby boy, born on March 8th.

Yes, I'm now official a 40 year old grandpa.

Am I happy... NOT EXACTLY!

Turns out... he had this kid with his best friends MOTHER (*The harborer of his first run-a-way attempt) -the woman who blatantly lied to us, and whom we aside from rumors of her being a drug addict, possibly an ex-prostitute, who is also... between the age of 39-45 years old!

WTF? - Shouldn't there be a window of opportunity -or- a hunting season for this type of sh#t?

I am doing my best at this point to keep my wife sane, and from driving across (3) state lines, and well... ya know, we'll leave it at that, let's say.

Obviously, he is 18, and being he'll be 19 in May this year, it's likely the law cannot provide much resolve, so option 2 is out.

Option 3. - I am trying my damnedest to find any logic, practical means, or flat out psychological rationality to this woman getting herself impregnated by my son?

-I am concerned for the new born child, my first grandson more than anything, as it's not the babies fault, and I unlike my father, want to actually be there for every child born into this family.

-I am concerned for my son, who has no freaking clue how to take care of himself, let alone a child. He's had only one job in his life, and I protected him week in and week out from being fired as he was hired as my hired as my apprentice by the company I was working for at that time.

His work skills, well non-existent. I am truly a jack-of-all-trades, and have done rather well by those talents until a few years ago. My son, is a typical teen, a walking hormone imbalance, lazy, and prefers X-box, skateboarding, and playing guitar... which I do to, so can fault him for any of that stuff, lol.

-My wife's mindset is 'seeing red' to grossly understate how she feels about this woman's actions in getting impregnated by our son. My wife already has one daughter with her ex that we tried to console, and has suffered terrible addictions to Meth amphetamines, stripping, escorting herslf, father of her children in jail, among other issues... So, this is really eating at her, as I can attest, she really is a good mother, and cares deeply.

-I am facing some underlying issues of mild prejudice, as the child's mother is not only around 40 something (my age)... she too is very dark skinned, whereby, my son is a blue-eyed Irishman. This is a personal conflict for me, and I apologize in advance if it sounds harsh, as I am not stating I am any kind of racist. I just never saw or prepared for my son having an interracial relationship, let alone one with a 40 yr old, and now bearing a child by it. -Again, no intention to offend anyone.

Honestly, my wife getting pregnant with my son saved my life. His birth is one of the main reasons I believe; I am even still alive today, and her pregnancy influenced major changes in my overcoming severe addictions some 19 years ago.

I can only hope this does the same for my son, and he accepts the responsibilities he's been running away from up to this very day. I know, I did my best to be supportive, and guide him... just didn't seem to register.

In a self-admission to the pain this is causing me personally, I have blamed myself for his learning disorder (he never has learned to read or write verywell), as I was pretty messed up before my wife got pregnant, and though he's not retarded or severally challenged or anything to that extreme, he suffers some issues, I believe to be of my own faults. *A punishment I have tried to overcome and make up for his entire life.

And how ironic, I love writing... he struggles to spell 5 letter words (*Thanks God)

Man I am normally hard as nails, and this... it's just too much to process. I have no connections with any family outside my wife and kids, as much of my family chose different paths (to continue pursuing drugs, alcohol, dead end jobs, etc!) -while I have channeled all that energy into building businesses, and providing the best I could for my seeds.

My entire being has been, is, and will be... to always do right by my wife and kids.

Hence, this is exactly why I became a warrior, and to explore (if not challenge) my talents and passions in learning to build a marketplace impervious to recession, and centered around writing the wrongs, so to speak. So I could prove to my children with hard work and perseverance come true reward., regardless of formal education, finances, race, color, creed, or what everyone is doing, saying, thinking, etc...

I know; this probably ain't the place to air my dirty laundry, but damn if everything I am, everything I care about, everything I ever wanted for my children isn't at the core of my efforts to become a successful internet marketer - then I wouldn't be here at all!

I am at wits end on this one.

Lastly, this only proves my theory that the core ingredient in truly understanding love, is to undergo such suffering, and in learning compromise, sacrifice, and the toughest one for me; forgiveness.

I fear my boy has no clue the suffering has caused himself, his immediate family, but most importantly the child he has just brought into this world.

How am I ever supposed to look upon my grandson mother, without wanting to exercise my inner demon by removing hers?

Thanks for reading.

If I wasn't a recovered alcoholic of 15+ years this would've easily have been a 5th of whiskey (and then some) Irishman moment, but that's a leprechaun I dare not release. For in short order, it would be a Boondock Saint style resolve!

The only logical solution thus far... is to suggest to our son that he have a paternity test done to ensure that this child is even his. While I have not spoken to him directly, and he probably won't speak to his Mother or I as a result of this woman, I am truly losing my mind. So far the only thig keeping my thoughts in the realm of sanity over this issue is writing this!

Thanks - I had to vent it somewhere... guess here's a good a place as any, right?

Art
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    The kid's 18 - not much you can do.

    YOU can't order a paternity test. Your son has to do that, and in a few months down the line when taking care of the kid and mom starts to get to him, he might figure out it would be a good way to go.

    He might also decide to hit you up for some help later on. THEN you can tell him not unless he can prove he's the father.

    I can see a kid his age getting mixed up in something like this. Sex with an older woman can be a hard temptation for a young guy. It's also easy for a youth to not fully understand the consequences of their actions. If she proves out to be an unfit mother (really - not just because you don't like her), and he can prove paternity, you might end up having to petition for custody with your son.

    Just give it time and see if the kid wakes up. If not, he must be doing okay, so leave him to his own devices.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I feel really sorry for you but I think you need to stay away from your son until you and your wife get over the initial shock and horror. Forget the humiliation part - that's only what other people think and they don't count.

      This has been going on for a while - so trying to start a business or fix things had no chance of working. This isn't something your son could talk to you about.

      I think you have only two choices:

      1. You make sure your son knows how hurt you are - ask about paternity - complain about the woman - lay on the guilt. Do that and you will lose your son forever as you leave no door open.

      2. You leave him alone and only let him know you love him, care about his welfare and are there if he needs you. You don't blame, argue or cry - just say "I care about you".

      To you he is "my child" - and that's normal for any caring parent. But he has a child and that is his focus now. It's a harsh way to reach adulthood - but it's the path he took.

      I guess you do have a third choice - to write him off and disown him...but that's not really an option, is it?

      Chances are, this relationship won't last for the long haul. Your choices now will determine what your relationship with your son will be a year from now - 5 years from now.

      You can't change the past - so accept it and accept him as he is. It's painful and won't be easy but it's the only thing you can do. No matter how good you are as a parent - your kids still can make their own messes and choices. Your son has to live with his choices - don't make it harder for him or drive him farther away from his family.

      And if other people pry or talk - tell them it's none of their business. Even in the worst times - family loyalty counts.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    art,

    FIRST, throw out the garbage about "I am a liberal ex junkie that acts like he doesn't care, so I am unbiased" garbage. You ARE biased, just the OTHER way. HEY, he did what could be expected. NO SURPRISE!

    ALSO, others are seeing one side of you, and your son may see another, so forget the "THEY say I am cool, so I am" garbage! 9 times out of ten, they don't know what they are talking about.

    ALSO, hiring him as your assistant is really NOT helping him if he has no talent or desire.

    If your son was even ONE day younger than 18, the mother is guilty of RAPE, and you likely COULD order a paternity test.

    Try to TEACH him the basics... Reading, Writing, Arithmetic! Get him to learn a skill and get ANOTHER job! And LIMIT YOUR FINANCIAL HELP! Let him know that though you WILL be there for him, you won't live forever, and he must be weaned off NOW.

    What you are doing, regarding the apprentice deal, is unconscionable! Your employer is getting ripped off! Your son's mindset is being encouraged, so that he may be WORSE. ALSO, you could BOTH end up losing your jobs.

    It IS tough since you have encouraged this attitude all of his life but, if it doesn't change soon, it can get FAR worse!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I am going to give you one piece of advice... my situation is the same as yours. I was a good father, rather liberal, there was no reason for my child to ever turn on me, yet for some reason she does from time to time...

    I became a grandfather when my daughter was only FOURTEEN years old! I was 36 .

    I mean this with all of my heart... I tried to talk her out of having that baby from every angle...till I was blue in the face, and I could have forced if I wanted, but she seemed to love it already before it was even born.

    So, I quit my job as a telemarketing manager, and started working in a printing factory at night, along with doing other entreprenuerial things on the side, this way she could still go to school, and I could watch her baby during the day...

    I want to tell you something... I was afraid more for her than myself about being a grandfather, and I wasnt thrilled either...but when I saw that dangly little cowboy laying underneath that heat lamp the first time. I fell in love, and my grandchildren have been my greatest passion in life every since.

    you think you love your kids?

    Just wait until you get to know your grandbaby...OMG there is never another love like that one!

    Your kids rebel?

    Your grandkids will respect you, and love you.

    It's GREAT to be a grandparent, better than any drug or high in the world.

    Once you come to the other side of this, you are going to be so thankful you will never even believe it, and your grandchild will become your little friend, one like you have never known.

    Please , dont be afraid, your son is going to do what he does, and he has a natural instinct right now to not be what his parents are, which will fade...You love your kids, but they can also drive you up the wall, because they have their own mind and dont respect your wisdom alot of times (mere familiarity breeds contempt naturally alot of times, no matter how good you are to them) But your grandchild?

    OMG they will be the greatest thing you have ever experienced.

    I mean that!

    It's done, dont drive him away, draw him in, and draw in whoever he is close to even if it kills you...once you get being a grandparent, even if you hate the person he is involved with, you will have to thank them in your heart for such a gift. I promise.

    -John

    Ps. The guy that got her pregnant was 21, and I sent him to prison for six years...

    But when he got out, he still loved my daughter, and she is his world, and he is hers. They are very much in love. I look at him, and I see my grandson in his eyes, and I love him now. Sure he still gets on my nerves here and there, and he obviously isnt the sharpest knive in the drawer, and I resented him at first, but I thank him for that boy, and a part of me wants to kiss him everytime I see him for bestowing such a blessing on my life now. We learn to accept over time. Plus, I can see that he really does love my daughter, as hard as that was to accept at one time, he is kind and gentle to her...I cant hate him.

    Dont separate yourself from your son. He can fall without you, but he cant fall WITH you...Dont let him fall. As far as dreaming about a business with your kids? I still do, but she has her own mind and wants to do things her way, perhaps one of my grandsons will want to run my business someday.
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  • Profile picture of the author SShip
    Art,

    Thank you for sharing your story with us, it had to be extremely hard. I'm so sorry for what you and your family are going through. I can't even imagine.

    I would definitely have to agree with what HeySal said. I also think that you shouldn't blame yourself. Sometimes our kids do things that we'd never expect and do the exact opposite of what we've taught them. The hard part is for us as parents, is to let them figure it out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Nothing much to add on my part.. I did read the entire post though.

    I honestly don't know what to tell ya..

    Just wanted to say I hope things work out eventually.

    He probably just has to make his mistakes & learn from them on his own.. some people learn from them quick, others it takes time..

    I would definitely NOT come to SC & cause any trouble with this woman tho..

    lol trust me.. women in this state are nowhere near "harmless" and all that would do is get yourself hurt, or put behind bars - neither of which would be fun.

    I'd like to think that it will work itself out eventually.

    Times will get tough for him, and he will realize he screwed up.

    Until HE comes to that realization, nothing you do or say is going to MAKE him see things differently. You know that from your own life experiences.

    Til then, just make sure that he knows you love him, even if you don't agree on this particular issue..

    Again, I hope it works out for the best. I don't have kids, so I can't imagine how I'd be feeling if I were in your shoes.. and I won't pretend that I could.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    HeySal,

    We were just talking outside with a friend who offered nearly the exact advice. Obviously, I don't want to offend my son suggesting a paternity test quite yet, for as of the moment since he believes it's his child. *we're still praying it's not.

    Certain details we have not been privileged to know, such as; did he sign the birth certificate? - Is it possible it is not his, and she's playing him? -Burning questions with no answers.

    Yep, you're right, I was propositioned by a woman (50ish) driving a Corvette on Ft. Lauderdale Beach where I grew up when I was 17, and I certainly was tempted myself... she was hot and had money, lol. As fate would have it, I had a girlfriend whom I thought to be in love with, and declined. Two weeks later, learned she was cheating on me... never did see that Corvette again, just can't seem to win myself.

    Miraculously, his mother and I have sustained nearly 23 years together, and honestly, I cannot foresee any long term relationship lasting with this woman as there is nearly the same span between them in age difference. Sad really.

    Actually, feel really bad for him at the moment. Especially, now that I've broken down a bit, and concluded this is (impart) of his own choosing/making. Funny how time travel works on the mind, I have relived my entire life since this morning.

    With that said, it's probably not healthy of me to keep mathematically calculating the probability(s) associated to the future, doing so is racking my brain, and provides little resolve.

    Appreciate your response, and though I'll admit being a bit pissed off at him, like I said, if it's blood, I'll be there to see it through. Still can't imagine holding back should I ever see this woman, and my wife is a real pitbull when someone messes with her babies as well... so we'll just have to wait and see.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      HeySal,

      We were just talking outside with a friend who offered nearly the exact advice. Obviously, I don't want to offend my son suggesting a paternity test quite yet, for as of the moment since he believes it's his child. *we're still praying it's not.

      Certain details we have not been privileged to know, such as; did he sign the birth certificate? - Is it possible it is not his, and she's playing him? -Burning questions with no answers.

      Yep, you're right, I was propositioned by a woman (50ish) driving a Corvette on Ft. Lauderdale Beach where I grew up when I was 17, and I certainly was tempted myself... she was hot and had money, lol. As fate would have it, I had a girlfriend whom I thought to be in love with, and declined. Two weeks later, learned she was cheating on me... never did see that Corvette again, just can't seem to win myself.

      Miraculously, his mother and I have sustained nearly 23 years together, and honestly, I cannot foresee any long term relationship lasting with this woman as there is nearly the same span between them in age difference. Sad really.

      Actually, feel really bad for him at the moment. Especially, now that I've broken down a bit, and concluded this is (impart) of his own choosing/making. Funny how time travel works on the mind, I have relived my entire life since this morning.

      With that said, it's probably not healthy of me to keep mathematically calculating the probability(s) associated to the future, doing so is racking my brain, and provides little resolve.

      Appreciate your response, and though I'll admit being a bit pissed off at him, like I said, if it's blood, I'll be there to see it through. Still can't imagine holding back should I ever see this woman, and my wife is a real pitbull when someone messes with her babies as well... so we'll just have to wait and see.
      If you dont forsee a long relationship between them , thats all the more reason to draw them close, that way when it ends, you will still have access to your grandchild.

      Ps. If you want your son to get a paternity test, then love on his baby...and then let him know "I want to release myself to love this baby with all of my heart, but Im afraid I will get hurt someday if i find out it isnt yours, please give me this certainty so I can feel free to get attached".

      Your son will want you to have that bond with his child.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Still can't imagine holding back should I ever see this woman, and my wife is a real pitbull when someone messes with her babies as well... so we'll just have to wait and see.
      I can fully understand that - so best method is to stay away from her completely for now.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Ps. If your grandchild is a different color, then that is just a banner for your liberal thinking, dont be ashamed of it, be proud. He may have gotten more from your freedom fighter attitude in life than you even realize! He may perceive you as a greater man than you even think. You showed him openess, now he is an open person. Be proud.

    Sorry for all the posts. Im very moved by your expression here and want to help you, as someone who has been there.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketingva
    I have to say I've seen this situation a hundred times over. "Liberal" and "understanding" parents who allow their kids to get tattoos, piercings, smoke a little weed, etc. are shocked when their darling children go off the rails. Children don't need more friends, they need parents. There isn't anything you or your wife can do to change the past. The best thing to do is to make yourself available to him if he comes asking for help. Make it clear you love him and you are there for him. That's all you can do.

    Bonnie
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by marketingva View Post

      I have to say I've seen this situation a hundred times over. "Liberal" and "understanding" parents who allow their kids to get tattoos, piercings, smoke a little weed, etc. are shocked when their darling children go off the rails. Children don't need more friends, they need parents. There isn't anything you or your wife can do to change the past. The best thing to do is to make yourself available to him if he comes asking for help. Make it clear you love him and you are there for him. That's all you can do.

      Bonnie
      Ive seen just as bad or worse from parents who raised their kids by the letter.

      Holding my tongue back a bit here...
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        Ive seen just as bad or worse from parents who raised their kids by the letter.

        Holding my tongue back a bit here...
        That makes you a better person than myself:

        Originally Posted by marketingva View Post

        I have to say I've seen this situation a hundred times over. "Liberal" and "understanding" parents who allow their kids to get tattoos, piercings, smoke a little weed, etc. are shocked when their darling children go off the rails. Children don't need more friends, they need parents. There isn't anything you or your wife can do to change the past. The best thing to do is to make yourself available to him if he comes asking for help. Make it clear you love him and you are there for him. That's all you can do.

        Bonnie
        Children do need parents -especially when young - however there's also a time that youth rebels, which is as it should be, and your only ties at that point of time is the friendship and commonalities that you have installed. Allowing a child self-expression is not the same as allowing them to run wild. To much "good parenting" can go just as wrong, if not more so, than just a tad to much guidance and not enough force.

        You don't TELL another person how to live very easily by the time their logical facilities kick in at around age 11. If you haven't instilled enough principles to get them through life by that age you are f***ed for ever having them even listen to your input. Once that system of logical coding gets ingrained into the socio-linguistic sytem, you better hope that you aren't thinking you can just tell them what to do and the outcome is going to be as you want it to. You better damned well be able to find a common bond in friendship.

        Trust me on that one.
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        • Profile picture of the author art72
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          That makes you a better person than myself:



          Children do need parents -especially when young - however there's also a time that youth rebels, which is as it should be, and your only ties at that point of time is the friendship and commonalities that you have installed. Allowing a child self-expression is not the same as allowing them to run wild. To much "good parenting" can go just as wrong, if not more so, than just a tad to much guidance and not enough force.

          You don't TELL another person how to live very easily by the time their logical facilities kick in at around age 11. If you haven't instilled enough principles to get them through life by that age you are f***ed for ever having them even listen to your input. Once that system of logical coding gets ingrained into the socio-linguistic sytem, you better hope that you aren't thinking you can just tell them what to do and the outcome is going to be as you want it to. You better damned well be able to find a common bond in friendship.

          Trust me on that one.
          That's the harsh reality here... my son and I are a lot alike. Ultimately, he was always been my son first, and my best friend too, as I chose to invest a lot of time in doing things we both enjoyed, and in being a father and watching him grow up was truly a privilege. I always looked forward to seeing him becoming a man. Now that it's finally happening, not quite sure I was ready for this at all! Under these circumstances, I can say; we taught him better than to do this to himself, and surely he knows this, if not now, then later when the reality sets in. Creating life is the easy part, parenting a life... still a work in progress.

          I am in no way ashamed in any way by the manner in which I raised my son, shocked perhaps, but not ashamed at what he and I once had, and can hopefully regain... our friendship. It's rather annoying he chose to break our bond momentarily, and in doing so, has now fathered his firstborn child with a woman old enough to be his mother... that's the real kick in the groin, and is still the hardest part to accept.

          Any way, my daughter looked beautiful tonight, as we stepped out to celebrate her birthday and while out, she said; "You know Dad, you can't keep blaming yourself for Austin's actions, he made his own choice. I don't agree with it anymore than you do, but now he has to deal with the consequences - and as a result your a grampa and I'm an auntie now!" - She has proceeded to poke fun at my new found elderly status all night, which does tickle the insides a bit.

          Thanks again all, I am still amazed by the responses, as they have - in essence, talked me down from some critical thinking, and has also provided great comfort hearing it from the various perspectives presented. In time, I can only hope to utilize some of this advice and mend that which has been broken.

          As I often say, I can fix and repair almost anything -with the exception of my own problems... as they can seem endless at times.

          Art
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          As a parent, you do your best to mold your child into the best he can be - but he grows up to be himself.
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          • Profile picture of the author art72
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            As a parent, you do your best to mold your child into the best he can be - but he grows up to be himself.
            Indeed, as I would hope. I just hope this doesn't ruin his ability to be happy. For the first 1-2 years of my sons life, long before he likely remembers much, I was rather bitter about the responsibilities of being a father back then. I was a self-centered dick, like travelinguy mentions in his great post, and I did change as a result.

            I stepped up by choice, but I'd be lying if there wasn't some hidden resentments burning inside for having settled down so young. I just couldn't wish those responsibilities on him this early in his life. I want him to live his dreams, hopefully having this child helps him do that, and even if the baby is his greatest achievement, I foresee the pain this woman will cause him.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by art72 View Post

              I want him to live his dreams, hopefully having this child helps him do that, and even if the baby is his greatest achievement, I foresee the pain this woman will cause him.
              Still the best thing you can do is take her in, because after it all comes down, which like you say it inevitably may... he can look back and say you were accepting and supportive and that you really opened your arms to her, and he will respect that. It probably wont last, but what you do between now and then may determine how the after party goes. Whether you get to spend summers with your grandchild...

              Even if you dont like her, you may want her compliance, so I would try to keep a straight face and never let on, you may even enjoy the time, while she is there. Even though secretly you know she is a temporary fixture and soon will be history...you just dont want your grandkid bein history too, or your kid saying "if you would have just been supportive..."

              You want the mother saying "It didnt work out, but your grandpa is a good hearted man, and they were good to me, and I dont mind you seeing them, because they wont talk bad about me to you".
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  • Profile picture of the author New Comer
    From a 19 year old kid who got in all types of trouble as an adolescent, ran away, did time in juvie and all that kind of stuff.....


    You just gotta let him do his thing. You can't make him do shit lol. My parents couldnt make me do anything. I thought I knew it all. Luckily I straightened up a bit and though I still argue with my parents and get frustrated with them from time to time, I realize that they always did the best they possibly could for me.

    So like everyone said......just let him know whats good. This is what I would do if I was you...

    I'd say in a FB message something like this..

    "look...I was young like you once so I know exactly what you're going through, but I know you don't believe. I'm not going to beg you to come home or to talk to me anymore, and I will only contact you if you contact me first. I just want you to know I love you, I care about you, and I'll always be here to help you to the best of my ability.

    I hope that you stay safe, make the best choices you can and do right by your new family, just has I have always tried to do right by ours.

    Until we speak again,

    Love,
    Dad"

    then you play the waiting game.

    you know something like that haha...that's just me though
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by art72 View Post

    Lastly, this only proves my theory that the core ingredient in truly understanding love, is to undergo such suffering, and in learning compromise, sacrifice, and the toughest one for me; forgiveness.
    My heart goes out to you, man. The anguish is just oozing from your post. I isolated a single part of your post for a reason. That shoe goes on everyone's foot sooner or later.

    I don't think there's anyone alive who hasn't screwed up in a big way one time or another. I certainly gave my parents plenty of gray hair and tears. But the one thing they did was to simply get out of the way so I could crash and burn on my own. In other words, I underwent such suffering... in that I eventually came around and straightened out.

    This kid is of age. You can't intervene. He's creating his future. One day he's going to wake up and notice he's got things to deal with. I know he's your kid and you want the best for him but he's calling his own shots now. He's got to go through this on his own.

    Realistically, he's made some bad choices, choices you don't agree with. And as serious as they seem, none of them lead to death or total destruction. He's still healthy. He's going to be looking at the responsibility of raising a child. That might be the wake up call he needs. Whether it is or not, sooner or later he'll reach a point where he recognizes how foolish he's been and he'll undergo enough suffering to want to turn it around. That's how I learned. I was tired of being a dick so I found something else to be.

    In the meantime all you can do is stand aside and pray. Ask God to help you and your son. And then let it go. If you stay immersed in this it will wear you out to the point where you're no good to yourself or anyone else. By what you've posted I know you're hip to how things are. Now your son is going to find out first hand how things are too. It's called life. No one gets out without a few bumps and bruises. You're in my prayers.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    First off, thank you everyone, as many of the responses (even seasoned's response) brings clarity to that which I could not see at first glance.

    Truly, I do love my son. I always have, more than he probable knows, or perhaps cares.

    John Durham, I may forever look back upon your post as inspiration should I ever lose sight of matters of greater importance. Funny, haven't teared up in quite awhile, but I am anxious to find a resolve and see my son and this baby.

    We too had to put two brothers away, one for raping our 14 year old daughter (now 17 today to be exact), while the other brother filmed it, and circulated the video to their friends via email. Luckily, one of their friends contacted us, as he felt it was wrong. Sadly, to this day, I still don't feel them serving 10 years each is a great enough punishment. So, yes, I am biased towards this woman, as she skirted the law and narrowly escaped severe punishment for these acts.

    In accepting this current situation, or trying to any way, I am torn. We haven't seen our son in nearly 15 months. This was the exact reason I disappeared from the WF 15 months ago, and let everything go, for I felt as though I failed as a parent, and lost site of my purpose momentarily. Never admitted that until now.

    While I am writing on memory here, there seemed to be some mention which suggested, I was enabling my son by getting him a job working with me, and similar to the prior business I was building for us... and perhaps, I was. That never occured to me, as I was hoping to pass on some entrepreneurial insight, so he wouldn't end up flying a sign or begging for change on the streets, or working for min wages the rest of his life.

    It may have been presumptuous of me to think we could share in a vision, as John states, children rebel. With three teenagers, all rapidly approaching adulthood, the pressure's rising for me an my wife to ensure we've done our best, before feeling comfortable in them moving on with their lives.

    All I can hope for in this very moment is that our son knows we both love him, as does his sisters. It seems since he ran away the second time he hates us all, and without giving any real reason. So I do fear, he and this child may remain a burning scar, and cause more unnecessary pain and suffering for both parties.

    As mentioned by KayKing "yes" the second choice is the right choice, and is the hardest one to implement, naturally. Being I do care. Despite having stated the exact opposite to my wife not 4 hours ago shortly after I learned of this news.

    I did pop off a message on his wall via my youngest daughter's FB account, after confirming him taking claim to this child with this older woman, and though I expressed my love for him, and told him I cared, and congratulated him... I did blast on the woman to whom he's now obviously engaged, with a mention of her being a sick b---h for allowing herself to become impregnated, which probably didn't buy me any points with my son.

    However, if you knew me, this is mild by comparisson to how I'd normally act, and was the reason, I started writing... it's my only therapy, second to work, nicotine, and coffee.

    I'm sure I missed some key points, I'd like to highlight from the responses thus far, and I will likely read them a few more times before some of it really sinks in, so bare with me here.

    Thanks,

    Art
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Go get your son and his bride man, even if its just online...take em under your wing and love them into healing. They are probably hurting too. It will all come out in the wash. Let him show her "See my Dad is amazing".
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Go get your son and his bride man, even if its just online...take em under your wing and love them into healing. They are probably hurting too. It will all come out in the wash. Let him show her "See my Dad is amazing".
      Yessir, trying to figure out how to make these statements a reality.

      @cpmnetwork - I was that kid. I overdosed an by the grace of god narrowly escaped death at age 16 also. Didn't exactly quit for years later, I spent many years chasing answers no one could give. I am a believer by choice, and by divine experiences.

      While I only have an 8th grade education, I personally do not allow that to be a factor in my desire to acquire more understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. I do warn should anyone ever ask for such, as did I... buckle in, it's a wicked ride!
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  • Profile picture of the author cpmnetwork
    Wow! This is my first day as a Warrior and I didn't expect it to be so therapuetic. Your son will arrive out of the fog in due time (they always come home). I do agree with the paternity testing...and as I believe all children are a blessing, not making a determination of paternity has everlasting effects. I do not want to shove Jesus down anybody's throats, but he clearly states in Mark 11:24 that "Whatever you ask for in prayer, as long as you believe it; it will be granted to you".
    -
    My son also rebelled at the age of 14...After catching him spreading feces on his bathroom wall, one month after moving into our brand new home, I kicked him out and sent him to live with his mother. You see, I am married and he has 3 half-siblings (two kings and a queen), and I was not about to take any chances with this type of teenage built-up anger.
    -
    What's funny is that his mother and I split up after 1 year and he has been playing both ends since birth. You on the other hand, seem to have a great stable family...It goes to show that we live in a Fallen World and it has taken all my life to get to this point, but I believe we must all learn to allow Christ in our lives.
    -
    Conclusion...Two years ago, my son was rushed to the emergency room at North Austin Medical Center for a drug overdose. He was 16 years of age and we almost lost him! This was July 13, 2011 (Three days after he witnessed my baptism). They say the enemy comes hard when you show this type of commitment. I petitioned to the Lord to take care of my boy (1st born) and he will turn 18 this Wed 3-13-95. He completed his GED and just left me a message that he applied to our local community college to begin General Study coursework. God is Good All The Time!
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue McDonald
    It seems you fin yourself in a difficult position. If your son is not working how are they going to manage to support this baby?

    The one I feel sorry for is this baby. How did your son get on with his siblings? I guess they may still be in touch with him even though it may only be through social media. If this is the case, I would be telling him that he is welcome home at any time. If something happens and this relationship falls apart he needs to know that he could return to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by Sue McDonald View Post

      It seems you fin yourself in a difficult position. If your son is not working how are they going to manage to support this baby?
      My sentiments exactly. As of the moment, I have no answers. Last I heard he wasn't working, has no phone, and they left the Florida area to stay with her family.

      What makes matters worse, is she has (4) boys ranging from 9-18 years of age, plus a newborn now with my 18 year old. My daughters just told me tonight it's believed the 4 boys all have different fathers, five boys now. These boys are/were my son's friends... hard to say how that will play out, though I imagine they are aware of the situation, as they are/were all living together last we knew.

      I cannot comprehend how her children must be viewing this situation with our son, their friend fathering a child with their mother?

      Understanding that I just learned of my son's involvement with this woman less than 24 hours ago, there's a ton of unanswered questions running in my head right now.

      Originally Posted by Sue McDonald View Post

      The one I feel sorry for is this baby.
      Absolutely, that's our major concern here as well, as it's not the child's fault.

      Originally Posted by Sue McDonald View Post

      How did your son get on with his siblings? I guess they may still be in touch with him even though it may only be through social media.
      Actually, until he ran away the first time some 15 months prior to these vents, we all were got along perfectly fine, and were always a tight family. Sure there were always spats of arguments, sure, but nothing out of the ordinary.

      He has reached out to his sisters and corresponded some through FB today, and he admitted he wanted to tell us of this sooner but feared we'd all freak out... ya think?

      Originally Posted by Sue McDonald View Post

      If this is the case, I would be telling him that he is welcome home at any time. If something happens and this relationship falls apart he needs to know that he could return to you.
      Yes, I am working on how to address him, while the post above suggested by New Comer was along the lines of what I am planning to do/say - I too believe he should know; we're here for him if he needs us. I plan to get some sleep here soon, and work on this tomorrow.

      Now, I did teach my children not to seek sympathy or pity, if and when possible. My son knows, I am firm in my beliefs that seeking these two attributes from people is not a practice I condone or suggest anyone applies. Most sympathy seekers use this to take advantage, and having/seeking pity is nearly as bad as having someone flatter you in my opinion, as they are all really forms of hidden insult.

      That said, I taught them to have mercy, and never kick a dog while it's down.

      Thus, I have mercy for my son, always. Though for a minute he made me feel sympathy and pity for him, without perhaps realizing this is a life-long commitment he just created, as he is to me.

      So yes, I would encourage him to come home anytime he's ready or needs us.

      Thanks Sue
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  • Profile picture of the author New Comer
    I think you just gotta have faith that everything will turn out just fine, and it will!
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    Here we go again, all those microscopic dust particles that were swept beneath the carpet over the years have reared themselves, only now they seem ceiling deep - making me feel ill equipped to face the challenges associated with being the lead janitor on the cleaning crew, and everyone responsible for the mess has systematically called in sick for work TODAY!

    Brings a whole new resonance to the world belittled.

    They say hereditary traits often skip a generation, and although my son has never met his grandfather (my dad) it rings true as do the echoes of the past, a past I had thought long forgotten... as these memories surge to the frontal lobes and bridge their attacks... I am awestruck.

    My son and my father seem to share some of these traits. My father was dyslexic, has trouble reading and writing, and 'by his own choices' was a dead beat father, absent the majority of my life.

    Though, I love my dad, what little I remember, I never respected him as a father.

    This was always my motivation in creating the bond I had with my son...

    Words can do no justice... but this can

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  • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
    I don't have any advice.

    But I will say this, I was a problem child. The only thing i did right as a kid was school.
    Everything else, I did wrong.

    I literally hated my parents. It took me years to realize I had no reason to.

    Eventually I grew up and matured. It took a while but now I have a great
    relationship with my family. Something i never had as a kid.

    The best thing my parents ever did, was let me go. That is the only reason I
    ever had a chance to grow up.

    Probably not the thing you want to hear, but i kinda felt obligated to share it
    with you. I am sure my parents felt very similar to what your feeling.

    Good luck
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      In the hope of encouraging you, let me share a story that happened with one of my daughters when she was only 17.

      Hubby and I were off on an anniversary trip when my 17 year old daughter who had graduated from high school early, upped and ran away and married a, well, for lack of a better term, a schmuck!

      She was 2 months shy of turning eighteen and he was a 25 year old recently divorced father of three, working at McDonald's.

      My daughter had the world ahead of her and had earned a four year scholarship to Michigan State in gymnastics. She was due to start college in 1 month. We were planning on moving her to the dorm when we returned from our trip.

      Needless to say, the whole family was absolutely abhorred and I was heart broken.

      But, I alone was the only one who stood by her and supported her and welcomed this schmuck to the family. The rest of our family was constantly telling me what an idiot I was and in not making a stand against her, was only encouraging her self destructive behavior. But...

      My reasoning was that I knew this wasn't going to last, it would certainly end. Oh, it may not be today or tomorrow, but it would certainly end. Two months later, my daughter conceived and inevitably brought into my life the most endearing, smart and delightful little girl. It all fell apart shortly thereafter as my daughter began to see the schmuck's true character after becoming a mother.

      Who did she come to? Well, she had no one to turn to but me as I was the only one who didn't alienate her. After that, I took care of and nurtured my daughter and basically raised my new granddaughter for the first two years of her life. During that time, my daughter got her stuff together and began schooling albeit not at Michigan State and not on a full scholarship.

      To make a long story short, she became a nurse, she met a wonderful man, got married and has given me two more grandchildren. As a matter of fact, her new husband adopted my first granddaughter and is her father in every sense of the word, not only legally. As a matter of fact, the adoption set precedence as the "youngest" adoption granted in the county.

      Embrace your new grandchild and the mother no matter how hard that may be, for when the time comes that your son may reach out to you, you can be on good ground and have a chance to help him turn his life around.

      Side note for the sake of humor: I forbid to let my younger son go to McDonald's explaining that bad things happen at the McDonald's in our hometown, lol! It was the only thing I felt I could be in control of at that time.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author art72
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


        Embrace your new grandchild and the mother no matter how hard that may be, for when the time comes that your son may reach out to you, you can be on good ground and have a chance to help him turn his life around.
        "No matter how hard that may be"

        I keep hearing this resounding echo from John's post, and now your post, that shows a powerful example that it has been done by others whom have experienced and shared very similar emotions concerning that which we hold dearest to our hearts, our children.

        Obviously, my son is/was my world, as is my responsibility to stand tough for him, his son, his sisters, and his mother. I really haven't been 100% ever since all this began, a piece of me, a big f'ing piece is missing. I simply never imagined being without him like this, and I am learning that it's no longer about me, it's his life, and I must come to respect that fact, even if it kills me... which it is.

        The fact he has left me surrounded by the estrogen mafia (*My wife, and two daughters) whom by any right are tough forces to be reckoned with, requires even greater sacrifice on my behalf, for without him here to assist and to field off some of the battles of the sexes on the home front, is also a daily reminder of his absence.

        My point is this... his absence has undoubtedly saturated me, in my own self-absorbancy, of sort, and is now forcing me to let go of something... something that I cherish, "my precious"... I am experiencing the battle, much like; Smeagol and Gollum in Lord of the Rings, whereby, the real battle is holding back Gollum.

        Like a pitbull, I don't want to let go, though I realize it needs to happen. -Again, selfishness, I know.

        This irony of detaching oneself from that which we've grown dependent, sucks, as my son became my addiction. He replaced my suicidal tendencies, and gave me greater purpose, significance, and brought me to finally accept and know a love greater then I believed ever existed. Foolishly perhaps, I depend on him as one of my sole purposes in this life... surely, he doesn't understand this, and now I'm not sure I do either.

        Was I wrong to place so much interest in him? -to the point I abandoned myself, impart, and became dependent on this kid?

        Up to this point, I really never saw how selfish it was of me to love him so much, and devote myself to him in such a way that my focus on life had become blind to my dreams, my wants, and my desires, (impart) as I dedicated myself to his... now I remember; in doing this, in all the changes/sacrifices that I made for him and myself, I was supposed to be acting in an unselfish manner, right? :confused:

        Now, as I read the above quote and try to comprehend embracing the woman who has (in essence) stolen this love from me, I am fighting a huge demon within myself.

        Realizing the need to see beyond that anguish, this anger, this hatred I have for this woman and her actions (in this moment) - it seems impossible to transcend, and move past, to achieve the greater goal...

        Which is maintaining my unconditional love for my son and grandchild, and doing so, be respectful in their quest to find this love, and hope; one day they will come to know; they were indeed unconditionally loved.

        To wish this upon them both, almost seems evil, for how does one ignore the harsh truth, and accept; giving unconditional love... does not mean it reciprocates unconditional love!

        A hard lesson indeed.


        Truthfully, despite my spirit which is speaking huge volumes of understanding from a higher playing field, I am imprisoned by this flesh riddled desire to just EXPLODE into a gazillion pieces! -To not take the action suggested, in embracing her in order not lose them, is causing catastrophic implosions upon my soul, as to perform this action...

        I MUST NOT BE SELFISH!!!

        Yet, my motive to consider doing this would in fact; be selfish as hell, itself!

        YES... either way, I am being forced to being a selfish prick.


        I see it. I feel it, and I know I'll get past it, suck up my pride, as there is NO other option. I hate the option. I detest there being no alternative... like a mouse jacked up on crack, my mind has circumnavigated every inch of this labyrinth seeking another possible exit strategy, and to no avail, I return to this one realization...

        Pose as the most unselfish man on the planet, while selfishly seeking the result I desire... kinda like marketing when you think about it...

        How F--ked up is that, I mean think about it?

        http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/jethro+..._20071158.html

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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Was I wrong to place so much interest in him? -to the point I abandoned myself, impart, and became dependent on this kid?
          When he was a child? No.
          Now? Yes, it's wrong.

          Your son isn't responsible for filling you up emotionally. He's learning to navigate his life as a separate person. He's doing (if a bit early) what you raised him to do....making his own choices.

          Don't play the martyr card or poke him to get a response. Your son is alive and well and you know where he is...be grateful for that.

          Let the drama levels drop - abandon the guilt and control issues. I don't think you can "embrace" the woman at this point, but you can accept the situation and stop fighting it. You can send gifts to the baby - a good place to start.
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          • Profile picture of the author art72
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            When he was a child? No.
            Now? Yes, it's wrong.

            Your son isn't responsible for filling you up emotionally. He's learning to navigate his life as a separate person. He's doing (if a bit early) what you raised him to do....making his own choices.
            I keep forgetting he's not a child - in my mind, he's still very much a child, and this wasn't exactly a way of proving his manhood in my opinion. Raising the child and doing right by his family, may be a good start though.

            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Don't play the martyr card or poke him to get a response. Your son is alive and well and you know where he is...be grateful for that.

            Let the drama levels drop - abandon the guilt and control issues. I don't think you can "embrace" the woman at this point, but you can accept the situation and stop fighting it. You can send gifts to the baby - a good place to start.
            Solid advice. You're absolutely right the guilt and control issues I am facing have undoubtedly caused me some serious emotional triggers. I appreciate you pointing out the fact that he most certainly didn't do this to me. Being a father did, thus, I brought those upon myself.

            Definitely, I don't think I'm "anywhere near ready" to accept, let alone "embrace" this woman... and that's where "accepting the situation" is/was distorting my ability to focus on my grandson, and my son... and yes, had me fighting it tooth and nail.

            About knowing where they are exactly(?) - we only know they are somewhere in South Carolina at this point. He has reached out to his sisters and specifically addressed the fact; he kept any news of the pregnancy quiet fearing we'd freak out...

            By his choice in concealing these facts from us, I have a sneaking suspicion: he is implying (to his sisters) that he knows deep inside, this was not the ideal candidate for him to bear his first child with, but now that it's done, it's done. He accepted the responsibility, and now I must too. That's the tough part.

            Sending a gift would be a great way to show my acceptance of the baby, without really having to expose my feelings towards her or deal with the other hardened issues for now.

            That seems to be a good a starting place as any actually. It may resolve 2 of 3 major barriers, in letting my son know; I have accepted his child and sending some love to the baby, these 2 things I can definitely do.

            Now, I need to focus my attention on communicating with him, in the least to have him provide a shipping location, even if it is not their residence, as he may fear we'll come a knocking no matter what state he's in.:rolleyes:

            I sincerely Thank-You!

            Art
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Rob
    God Bless ya,Man.

    That is some harsh realities. I would definitely Freak.

    All I can offer is don't bottle anything up when you talk him. And F*** facebook posting.
    Why post family stuff for the world to see? I tell my 20 and 22 yr olds, pick up the phone and text me if you dont want to talk , they know Mama would whoop that ass for posting publicly. Point is , talk to him.

    Dude, I Totally understand having to restrain your wife. I would not be able to.
    Mine would be locked up in an SC jail in no time.
    and I would be tempted to leave her there .

    Good Luck,Bro.
    Wish you all the best.
    Keep your cool.
    It'll all work out eventually.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    When I said FB, I didn't mean wall posting for public eyes.

    I meant private messaging, since he stated that's the only way they can get in touch with him these days.

    This is definitely NOT the kind of thing to post for everyone to see. That isn't what I was suggesting. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Art, in every male's life comes an initial trial of stepping over the line from boyhood to manhood. When and how it comes is different for all of us, but how we react to it affects us all the same: how we handle these early trials develops us into the man we'll soon become.

    This is your son's trial. Not yours. It sounds harsh, but you have to let him face it alone. You can offer support and love, but you have to let him earn his stripes.

    As far as your emotions go, what has happened has happened. Anguishing over it and punishing anyone, including the mother and yourself, isn't going to change it. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at the big picture: Your son, while struggling, is still here. Fences will mend over time and the end result will be a grandson. Big pictures, man, big pictures.

    Now, to your question: what would I do? It would be "family meeting" time in my household to see how this is affecting my daughters. I'd use this as a teachable moment to discuss actions and consequences and prove to my children that - no matter what - I will stand behind them. At the end of the day, what's done is done. The goal would be to head off possible future issues. I'd also take time to repair any damage I might have caused if my other children witnessed my initial reactions to the event.
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Art, in every male's life comes an initial trial of stepping over the line from boyhood to manhood. When and how it comes if different for all of us, but how we react to it affects us all the same: how we handle these early trials develops us into the man we'll soon become.
      I went through it myself, and made plenty of mistakes. You're right, everyone's circumstances are different, and I'm trying to take all this into account. I didn't have a father, so for me BEING a father means everything.

      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      This is your son's trial. Not yours. It sounds harsh, but you have to let him face it alone. You can offer support and love, but you have to let him earn his stripes.
      Yes, it is HIS trial, and premature as it may be, I am simply concerned he will suffer greatly for it, as did I in many of my choices... none of which seemed so drastic by comparison to that of the probabilities that lie ahead for him.

      I know my son, and he doesn't even see it coming. He's clearly too busy in his amazement that having sex creates life... wait until that fades, and this woman's four teenage boys gang up on him whenever their mom and he have future arguments...which won't be long.

      This whole situation was doomed right out of the gate, when this woman allowed herself to get pregnant by her sons friend, all while harboring our run-a-way son. He wasn't ready for this, I've been through hell and back, and my son is not 18 mentally (more like 12-13) and my wife, his sisters, and I are all scared for him.

      I cannot simply just stop my role to protect him because he's 18...and this number establishes some great importance because... oh yeah, the law says so. Screw the law! -I know my son, he being played because he has a pure heart, and it's going to get him destroyed by these sick f'ing people!

      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      As far as your emotions go, what has happened has happened. Anguishing over it and punishing anyone, including the mother and yourself, isn't going to change it. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at the big picture: Your son, while struggling, is still here. Fences will mend over time and the end result will be a grandson. Big pictures, man, big pictures.
      Hope so... at the moment the big picture is obscured with a broken family on this side, and a very irresponsible woman w/ another newborn child, and 4 more children on the other side... none of which have a father figure to keep things inline, this scares the sh*t out of me for all parties involved.

      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      Now, to your question: what would I do? It would be "family meeting" time in my household to see how this is affecting my daughters. I'd use this as a teachable moment to discuss actions and consequences and prove to my children that - no matter what - I will stand behind them. At the end of the day, what's done is done. The goal would be to head off possible future issues. I'd also take time to repair any damage I might have caused if my other children witnessed my initial reactions to the event.
      Family meeting started before my son left, and my daughters ARE very hurt, as is mom, and myself. We all sought advice, and everyone suggested we leave him to his own devices the second time he up and split without a word.

      I remember talking to him the day he left, and rather than discuss any issues... he disappeared, and never came back, without a word. Even after the first time, when I refrained from whooping his ass, and made a pack with him; you want leave again, just let me know your plans, and I'll be supportive, we shook hands on it, I hugged him, told him I loved him and that we've all dealt with being teens.

      Our house is and has always been an open platform for any issues... did he utilize his resources...

      Nope, bailed without a single word. And we let him go, unaware this woman was going to carry him, use him, trap him, and now the result is all this BS.

      *I cannot refrain from speaking of the events that transpired a couple hours ago, when my 14 year old daughter sent a very sentimental message to her brother on FB, and the response(s) returned from the wolfpack (her 3 oldest boys 12,16,18) were nothing short of a gang-like mentality, slanderous, profane, and bordered threatening.

      Amazingly, I am controlling my anger very well, for the moment.

      Thus, I am trying desperately to my tongue here, for all I can say is this;

      I live for my wife and children's well-being. I can be expendable in protecting them should the threats increase.

      What transpired a few hours ago...

      My 14 year old loves her brother, she sent a sentimental message to her brother a few hours back, addressing the fact she misses him, we miss him, how she wants for us all to be in his life as well as the babies, and one small bit about why didn't he talk to her. The only negative thing she said was did you think this through before having a baby with this 40 year old woman?

      BOOM... her oldest boys (12,16,18 yr olds) responded by attacking her with profanities, provoking a war, sending slanderous statements towards my family and I am supposed to sit idle, whilst my son sits back wallowing in all his glory, thinking he's being "man enough" just because his sperm works with some ex-whore?

      He better think again, or start thinking period.

      Certainly I wouldn't do any physical harm to anyone (whenever possible or preventable). I am however 'of the mind' to preempt and set up a little covert sting operation in the near future should this attitude from the 'chump-bunch' continue, and remove these vile obstruction(s) from my son and grandsons lives by out-thinking their stupidity.

      Their inability to stand accountable, or maintain even an ounce of human decency, or respect for the gravity (and facts) of this situation is forcing me to take a different stance then that which everyone here suggested, which was a civilized and logical approach. One I was truly hoping to employ.

      However, if the level of ignorance this situation contains continues to ooze and reek of there being no chance of that happening (civilly)... I am going to get my son and his son, and solve this problem.

      These people have turned our son against us, maybe he's cool with that, I'm not. There's no reason for this ignorant charade. Secondly, I was willing to wait him out and have patiently... which now results in him impregnating this broad.

      Not exactly, what we expected, but ok, we're dealing with it.

      The mere thought that when my son wakes from whatever coma he's living in, and the sh!t starts hitting the fan, his friends (Or theoretically his step-sons) - who claim he's their brother now, likely will not side with or sympathize for our son.

      Did he put himself here, yes he did. Was he ignorant in the results of his actions, strike two. Did he think about the repercussions and long term effects this has on his mother, his sisters, the baby, these boys, their mother... nope, strike 3... and yet, the worst of it all, he doesn't have a pot to piss in when these shmucks turn on him, and it's going happen, not 'IF' but 'WHEN'(?)

      I am not sure sitting idly by is the solution. I'm trying to believe it with all my might, and still fear he has been brainwashed into thinking there is something good (other than his child) that could possible spawn from this whole debacle.

      Now I was just informed via another friend who knows about her past...

      This woman apparently was hit by a car walking the streets at 3:45am... supposedly she was waiting for a bus that never came...(yeah, they stop at like 2am). This happened roughly 17 or 18 months ago. According to those who informed us, she was collected money from the vehicle owner, and was getting this HUGE settlement...

      She 'claimed' to have told them she was coming into all this money. It was suggested she may have been playing my son. By the time she got the remainder of the money (minus the payments she received) she was broke in a week. The money she was collecting while awaiting the trial was being taken away from the settlement. Well, this money she gave to her boys, and son to go to eat, concerts, arcades, and squandered it spoiling them.

      You have to remember, we just learned of this woman's involvement with our son, and trying desperately to connect-the-dots as to what exactly transpired leading to her getting pregnant. So this news certainly doesn't sit well, nor does the fact they fled states, nobody is working (her kids have never had jobs) and I'm not even sure they are registered in school?

      I don't know, every time I think I can be cool about all this, my kids and mom are on the phone or FB as they are researching who she knew, what's her history, is she dangerous, yada, yada, yada... I know, I know, but unlike you, I am submersed in this, with not one child's well being on the line, but really 5 (including her four under-aged boys and the newborn).

      All the reports of her past, the actions and lifestyle obviously, and I don't give a rabbits furry ass, if my blood is in trouble, I'm intervening!

      Art
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Your daughter is modeling YOUR behavior over this family crisis - that's not good. All of you need to stop the complaints asking why and pointing out the woman's age, etc. There's a satisfaction when you can get a dig in about her - but it's petty and useless to do that and drives your son farther away.

        You are right to be angry and worried and resentful of this woman and her sons. But being right doesn't change a damned thing, does it? You can't change what has happened - you have no control over what your son does - all you can control is your reaction to events (and that's not easy, I know).

        If he doesn't want to give an address to send a gift - let it go. I think at some point you'll have to just say "I love you - and if you need me, I'm here for you"...and then leave him alone for a while.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    Update:

    Our son spoke earlier to his sisters though FB, while they didn't say much...

    One HUGE revelation just transpired. Our son ran away the second time in early April 2012, roughly 2 weeks prior to my my 40th birthday.

    During that time, our son was 17 and due to turn 18 on May 11th, 2012.

    My son basically sent a private message (non-public) to his sisters in box. That message states that this woman told our son she was 'with his child' and was expected to deliver in January 2013.

    OK, as mentioned, my son is NOT very good at problem solving. If you detract 9 months from the projected due date of January 2013... it would be April 2012.

    This explains a lot.

    Firstly, the 2 hour man to man talk he and I had regarding his well-being on the day he ran away (again April 2012), would certainly make sense that he couldn't talk to me, as he knows; I would've had her arrested and put behind bars, because he was a minor.

    Plus, after all, I (as a concerned father) was addressing the issue with his girlfriend being 16, as he was rapidly approaching 18. Both he and his mom feared 'IF' the parents of his girlfriend wanted to, they could have him arrested for statutory rape here in Florida, regardless if it was consensual sex or not. -Plus, her parents were aware, as the four of us (Adults/parents) did get together concerned they were too immature to 'risk' getting pregnant.

    In short, he was in love with this 15 year old girl (his first) as she was his first when he was 17 years old. She turned 16 before his 18th birthday.

    Now, we had thought he may have ran away for this 16 year old, as we were not forcing the issue, but explaining to him, the only 'legal' way for him/her to be together (in a sexual relationship) when he turns 18, was for her parents to emancipate their daughter, whereby, she would then be declared an acting adult, by law. Then, and only then could they be together legally, from the research we conducted.

    The parents had no intentions of doing this, as their daughter was very, very immature, as was our boy!

    So, looking back... it wasn't her he ran away for at ALL! -We had heard they broke up shortly thereafter, and NEVER were privileged as to the reason why?

    He told his sister (back then April-May 2012) - he and his 16 year old girlfriend were through, he dumped that dumb b..tch, yada, yada, yada.

    Naturally, we were happy and saw this as a win, and hoped he'd find someone his own age...ya know 18 or older.

    This, is ALL starting to unfold. This 40ish year old woman, claimed she was pregnant in April 2012, putting my son at age 17. This is clearly the reason he and his first had an abrupt break-up, he couldn't talk to us (*which was strange in itself, as repeatedly stated throughout this post) and now appears, my suspicions were correct... she set him up.

    Now, since she (really) didn't get pregnant until July 2012, thus carrying full term (9 months) giving birth on March 8th, 2013...

    This could prove that this woman manipulated him as a minor, forcing him to base his decisions on the facts she was (already) pregnant in April 2012, projecting her delivery date in my son's mind of January 2013 (*9 months full-term) - Then she IS GUILTY of rape.

    Obviously, we need to further investigate a few things.

    1.) I'm fixing to research the laws in South Carolina - Do their laws support statutory rape and treat all minors under the age of 18, as victims (or is it 16 there?) - In theory, it doesn't matter, because the crime was committed here in Florida, which brings clarity to why she up and fled states, despite her children's outcries to move back to Florida ever since they left.

    2.) This woman was harboring another 16 year old (run away) girl at that time that was dating her son. We also learned, the 17 year old son and this 16 year old runaway were permitted (perhaps instructed?) to have sex in the bathroom of a hotel where the family was living, with the mother and the other 4 boys present just outside the bathroom. Obviously, hotel rooms are quite small. We learned this from her 12 year old sons ex-girlfriend, who states: she was present (in the hotel) when the 12 year old boy would bang on the door and mimic the sexual noises coming from within the bathroom, and the mother and her other children were occupying the room. (?????)

    3.) We have not contacted our son's ex-girlfriend as of yet, and we intend to see if she has any evidence to support this, as she and my son were hanging out with her children, possibly at the hotel.

    4.) This woman's best friend had told a third party she was aware of the sexual relationship here friend was having with our son as a minor, and we are trying to locate her.

    5.) Since we do not know exactly where they are, we are planning to narrow our search by a few means. Find out if they've disclosed their location to anyone here in Florida. Secondly, the suggested (send-a-gift) campaign method whereby, a Walmart Gift Card requires the recipients address. If they will not "fall" for this 'bribe' then we could contact shopping cebters with a UPS or FedEx, let them pick the gift up, collaborate with local officers, and have her picked up, extradited, and ship her ass back here to deal with this!

    I am on fire with HOPE....FINALLY!

    Please forgive me, as my first sentence in my opening post states, I don't normally seek assistance in this form... however, I am grateful I did, because I was in a bad way. My spirit knows, there was something wrong here.

    Now, with the profession of my son clearly stating tonight that he thought she was pregnant in APRIL 2012... Proves this woman RAPED my son! - Let see how that SKIRT fits now!!!

    Also, when my son left, he was on unemployment, and receiving benefits, we were laid off by a bank that took over the hotel we were performing maintenance for, he was my apprentice, mom was head of housekeeping. It was a crappy job, but it provided a roof, and 3 paychecks.

    Any who, my son demanded his sisters make us go and get him a copy of his birth certificate and social security, and couldn't figure out "how to" file his bi-weekly claims to receive his unemployment benefits.

    In the manner in which he left, I stood firm, you want something from us, come talk to us. That was my deal. So, he never did get his unemployment, they were cancelled or suspended roughly 30 days after he left, and honestly hurt us, as he was given an allowance the rest went to the family pool and covered our family expenses. At the time, as mentioned prior we were experiencing some rough financial times.

    As it turns out, we now are hearing all this "You guys were stealing his money, you didn't love him, screw you, f-this, f-that, earlier from her boys.

    I had better not find out this was some form of psychological entrapment, a top the rape and the birth of this child was of financial motive, which as I said, my son has a good heart, and would give the shirt off his back if manipulated to believe he was doing right.

    I am exhausted over all this, and yet this new information definitely has me stoked to continue.

    I apologize if my rant was in any way unwelcomed, distasteful, or perhaps distorted at times by my need to get to the TRUTH. That's all I really want is to know; the truth, and what happened to our son for him to up and estrange himself from everything he knew and loved. It wasn't normal. I do feel a touch dismayed we didn't dig into this sooner, but like everyone suggested... we did leave him to his own devices. Perhaps, those devices were not his own (impart) but rather shackles of a sick game he has fallen victim to.

    I will update.

    Thank You ALL again, it's been a rough 48 hours or so, and amazingly the help from above appears to be responding, in ways I cannot explain in words...

    All the Best,

    Art

    edit: How ironic, the statutory rape laws in South Carolina is age 16. Now, that this explains why she's on the run... like "a rabbit's furry ass" - wow, the spirit speaks in volumes, does it not... I knew it!

    Yeah, and that evil I spoke of... isn't strange the official South Carolina's State Statutes website was down, but that's ok, there's always wiki answers! Suck on that satan!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Art,

    Last thing you want is for cps to get involved and take your grandson, trust me, the grandparents getting him are NOT a shoe in. You think life is a nightmare now?

    Tell the authorities and let CPS get a whiff of the profits. You will never forgive yourself, you will be in for the biggest surprise of your life...your son will never forget it, and a child may end up in the foster care system FOREVER!

    Your son wont get him either, they will investigate everything in your life including this thread and say he has mental problems because you said he isnt a good decision maker, so he isnt fit to have his own son.

    They will look up your face book posts and say your family is unstable for arguing, and blame YOU for him getting involved with an older woman.

    They will read your posts here on wf, and say you have anger issues, even though its pretty understandable, and YOU wont get your grandchild.

    I would quit thinking about legalities altogether. If your son wants an older woman, let him have her. You dont want to be the catalyst for such a nightmare as that.

    Remember karma...and try to get rid of that hate, because it ALWAYS comes back to bite you. If someone is going to be the victim, let it be you... and keep your karma. Dont be the hand that weilds hate, because paybacks are a B**** and karma ALWAYS pays back.

    Art, I hope for you, and I understand the feelings, they will pass if you let them, but you can definitely do irreversable damage if you dont get a handle on them quick. Im picking up what kay is picking up, and you are on the verge of being in the danger zone man.

    You dont know a nightmare till a CPS agent lands on your sons doorstep because somebody got authorities involved, where it really wasnt their business. Like you said, he's almost 18.

    I thought my work was done here, but guess not.

    DO NOT CALL THE COPS on that lady, unless you want to regret it for the rest of your life.

    You dont even KNOW what pain is, until you meet a CPS agent. The cops are romper room compared to them, and they arent there to help you trust me, they will come to your sons doorstep with dollar signs in their eyes and every reason to take your grandson, and they will keep you from getting him at ALL costs, no matter how decent you are.

    Now my work is done here.

    -John
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    True... maybe?

    What if he doesn't want her. What if he's actually too scared to stand up for himself. I think I've made it quite clear, he is 18 now, this doesn't necessarily make him 18 mentally.

    I fought for years to keep the "system" from labeling him as impaired or handicapped, because my beliefs were always to rise above and overcome. Yes, my daughter is a lot like me, as she was the one who determined based on what he said earlier, he was tricked into believing she was already pregnant.

    This broad didn't get pregnant until June 2012. Until I know he's happy, I will NOT stop trying to find out 'IF" this woman manipulated him?

    I appreciate your take, and your advice. However, if I learn that this was (as I suspect) was an act of a mentally unstable woman unable to control herself at the expense and possible well-being of both my (potential) grandson, and my son... then as I stated before, I will intervene.

    Do I want anyone's lives to be destroyed any further, no. Actually, I don't. In that regard, I have already given far more consideration towards this woman than I feel she deserves for her actions.

    After all, has she taken into account that our son was fine until this 'mysterious' disappearance took place, leaving our family severely scared. I have acknowledged certain decisions may be selfish, while in any and/or absolution, I am still his father first, and I fear his well being.

    What does it hurt if I find out the truth, and the truth proves to be she is guilty of rape, implanted this 'thought' in my son's head she was already pregnant?

    What of his first love, surely, he could've waited for her, and focused on getting his education or a decnt job as we were encouraging him to do before jumping off into the real world with NO life experiences.

    What of his sisters who remain torn, and agree this is NOT normal behavior.

    What about my wife's well-being that is on the verge of a nervous breakdown over this crap.

    What about her next victim when she finishes off any good that she hasn't tainted in my son.

    I'm sorry, I've built my case. I do not fear child services, I'm sober, working, and getting things together, just in case.

    Now, if my son WANTS this and can communicate that he is happy in some way OTHER than a computer message on FB, then, and ONLY then will I back off.

    Fair enough?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post


      Fair enough?
      I dont know, ask your grandchild that if they end up in foster care, due to someone getting authorities involved for revenge purposes, and they end up paying the price.

      Like I said, my work is done.

      Good luck bro, really mean that.

      -John
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      • Profile picture of the author art72
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        I dont know, ask your grandchild that if they end up in foster care, due to someone getting authorities involved for revenge purposes, and they end up paying the price.

        Like I said, my work is done.

        Good luck bro, really mean that.

        -John
        Obviously, I don't want any child in foster care... not a fan of the "system" myself.

        I truly need to know if my son made these choices on his own, and if he is truly happy as a result, YES INDEED, and IN TRUST!

        Right now, our trust was broken. This child was 'possibly' born on a lie. A lie I take very seriously, whereby, if she lied to him, claiming pregnant when she was NOT in order to get impregnated... he had better be in LOVE or this B..tch is going down for the count.

        Call it mercy, cause my first thoughts were FAR worse.

        Her sons got online, and shredded on an innocent 14 year old kid (his biological sister tonight) and claimed none of us will EVER see this kid, stated that we are NOT, and NEVER will be family, despite my 17 year old finding reason to believe her brother was manipulated, and yet, she's modeling me, and did NOT ask or even imply there was an issue of his age at the time of inception, our son mysteriously provided this date tonight of January.

        Instead, my son told her she was supposed to deliver in January? WTF? That doesn't jive man.

        She wasn't pregnant. She lied. She allowed my son to believe she was... that's even more sick then what I first perceived when I heard this news of a child.

        I will SWEAR on my HONOR and everything I am, to do what is RIGHT.

        If I learn that all these 'leads' are indeed dead issues because my son is truly HAPPY, then we'll go from there.

        Until then, there are possibly other people who will get hurt 'outside' the scope of my son, this child, our family... this is not good, I'm sorry I cannot welcome what lies ahead here.

        As far as her boys, if she were to go to jail, let it be a lesson to them not to think it's ok to rape some young girl MODELING their mother's behavior, NO?

        Dude... back to being spun out, again.

        I do RESPECT what you both said. I can't understand it right now, after all that has been revealed, but I will get some sleep, if possible, and resume my quest for the TRUTH in the morning.

        I pray you are right, and my son is happy. Even if it is at the expense of the four of us suffering... and I mean that.

        BUt common, this just reeks of foul play to me, and has since I heard the news.

        Good Night,

        Art

        PS- so, to be the better man, I should let my daughters and their mother suffer, wait, hope he comes back on his own, as to not have the other 4 boys put in foster care?

        Now that my son is 18, he can father my grandchild, and if it means I got to get 2 jobs, pursue IM, mow lawns, shovel s.it I would absolutely do that. These boys may not have a father in their lives right now and I feel that pain, but they have an 18 year old brother, and a 16 year old that are obviously NOT doing anything productive from what I have been told!

        She proved her guilt when she fled to a state she thought could protect her... I'm sorry still cannot see her as my grandson's mother, I see a rapist and a kidknapper, and I don't have much love for either!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Sleep on it man.

    There are worse things that can happen than an 18 year old boy laying up in a house getting laid by an older woman... Many of them happen in the foster care system.

    Good nite.

    -John
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    Peace.

    That's all I would like from this... some inner-peace.

    I see your point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      John knows more about CPS than almost anyone here - he's fought that battle and even with a good case he hasn't been able to beat that system.

      It's becoming clear you aren't going to back off - so I wish you luck. Your anger is escalating because you are feeding it by adding new insults your family has suffered.

      Your son is almost 19 - you haven't seen him for a year. You might talk to a lawyer to see if you have ANY legal standing in this. I think you'll find you are on the outside looking in for this situation.
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      • Profile picture of the author art72
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        John knows more about CPS than almost anyone here - he's fought that battle and even with a good case he hasn't been able to beat that system.

        It's becoming clear you aren't going to back off - so I wish you luck. Your anger is escalating because you are feeding it by adding new insults your family has suffered.

        Your son is almost 19 - you haven't seen him for a year. You might talk to a lawyer to see if you have ANY legal standing in this. I think you'll find you are on the outside looking in for this situation.
        Hey Kay, John, and ALL,

        My motivation may have appeared reflective of my anger, as new details to "What?" exactly happen to our son has now finally reared itself, and not seeing him for nearly a year, is the result of our frustrations, anguish, and caused some anger issues, sure. No problem admitting this WAS not welcomed, at all. - We gave him freedom, we believed he abused it, as teens do... ok, we left it alone, as instructed back then, when he was 17.

        He was in love with his first, a 16 year old girl when all this started, again he was 17 and coming of age. We presumed the reason he 'ran away' was for her, and in direct defiance of us being concerned for HIS well-being... and quite realistically, him being charged with statutory rape charges. The father of this girl was already implying it because though his wife, my wife, and I became aware of their activities. Her father didn't learn of this until an argument between our families spawned from his wife (totally different woman than the baby's mama) had disguised our son (hair cut, different clothes, and put him up) - this being the first time our son split (February 2012). We ALL believed it was for this 16 year old he thought to be (and very well may have been) in love with. Pressure from us (4) adults was NOT what she or he wanted to hear, but it was a harsh reality... they were both very immature, and needed to focus on education and life skills, not let their focus be on prioritizing sex... as that is not what a real relationship should be based upon.

        This concludes the first time he took off without notice. Being he is a skater (or skateboarder) his disappearance (without a word) had us calling friends, hospitals, etc... we feared he may have been hit by a car, again, as he did narrowly escape being severely injured prior while skateboarding.

        Ok, after this, we had several family meetings, and we 'embraced' all the plausible possibilities. We stayed in communication with the other family (his girlfriend's parents) in trying to provide a resolve for everyone. We all decided, let nature run it's course. Her father (the 16 yr old) was the only one who voted against his daughter and my son continuing their relations, probably more pissed his wife excluded him in the beginning, than that of them having sex. Either way, we (His mom and I) having dealt with CPS over our daughters rape case (not a pleasant experience, btw), wanted to take no risk for our son's well being, naturally. We certainly did not trust the father, or his girlfriend, God forbid they ever had an argument after he turned 18... that could've been ugly

        Moving to April 2012.

        He had been home maybe 6 weeks, I had spoken with my son more than ever trying to explain to him, we love him, and we didn't want him getting hurt. We understood he lost his virginity and that was a big deal for him and his girl, no doubt. One, I admit; I didn't want to PUSH, as I was a proud poppa, and my boy was growing up, ya know...coming of age, finally.

        So, as to his disappearance in April 2012 - our family was devastated, once again, he left without a word, re-instilling the same fears... he may be hurt, etc. We didn't correspond with him for 2-3 days, until he text messaged us stating; "I'm not coming back."

        This being after I expressively told him we would support him 'if' he ever wanted to leave, he could, just let us know, don't just bail and leave us hanging, we care and love him, and don't want him getting hurt, naturally.

        Truth be told, I preferred he be back in school/vocational or working before making a decision to leave, leaning towards the latter, as school was a nightmare for him and us, not his behavior, just the whole embodiment of his struggles academically. At this time, he was receiving unemployment, and I was building the detailing rig to 'create' our own employment. He was interested in working together at this time, just not helping much. There too, he wasn't very successful finding his own employment.

        Now, prior to his leaving, we noticed him being withdrawn, and distant. We spoke openly, was it drugs? - If so, I could relate, as I had some serious issues in my past. Nope. He was attacking his mother, and speaking to her in ways he had never done before, we suspected this was coming from he and his then 16 year old girlfriend, and the pressure reality was taking on them. This girl was very disrespectful to her parents, but never to us. As is often so, I notice our kids are well behaved towards other parents, and more defiant towards us, so we chalked this up as having to do with his issues pertaining to him soon to be turning 18, and thought he was just frustrated by the reality we presented... like he could go to jail - not by us, by her daddy!

        Now understand, we barely have spoken for the majority of the time he's been gone. We had little knowledge of his whereabouts, other than he was staying with these 4 boys and their mama. We figured he was safe, and if he fell... we were there. Again, similar to the advice given here, we left him to his own devices.

        Aside from him attacking his sisters and causing deeper scars with his absence upon us all, the only other time he connected was in wanting his birth certificate and his social security card, as he claimed he needed it to file his unemployment, as the benefits ceased when he left, and stop filing it. He was a real dick about the manner in which he was handling himself, and wasn't normal. We chalked this up being influential of these 4 boys he was hanging out with. We NEVER gave much thought to their mother or placed ANY judgements upon her. We knew she was struggling, and raising 4 boys on her own, that's about it. Though she did lie about harboring him the first time he ran away. The father of his girlfriend, politely 'booted' him after 2 days, this was where he landing next. I mean we tried to keep tabs, and stay connected from a distance, ya know.

        Then, fast forward to today.

        While I am not sure what Kay meant exactly that my daughter was modeling me, I presume it refers to her asking her brother what he was thinking having a baby with this older woman?

        If so, we've since had a long meeting this morning, and I am actually proud neither of my daughters returned fire, nor did they provoke ANY of the crap her boys started slinging regarding us NOT being privileged to have access to our son, the baby, or even in embracing them and in working toward healing these scars. I personally only sent one message of FB, and that was to sincerely congratulate him, let him know I loved him, missed him, and yes... I mentioned; "what was this b--th thinking?" - not cool, understandably! - I was pissed off, as was everyone who just got the news.

        I am not trying to justify that we have a right to be pissed, as some here have clearly pointed out, it'll do little good for anyone. Therefore, we naturally started trying to process this all. Sure, I would love to have been like; "Oh cool your tapping some mature..." but it wasn't clear to any of us "What's been going on here?"

        As you can see, my way of dealing with this was getting feedback here, before doing anything stupid. I'm too old for all that man, been there done, got the scars, bars, jumpsuits, t-shirts, and all that to prove it. - Seriously though, this is our son. My ONLY son. My first born. My wife is not fixing to have anymore at age 45, as we elected to get her snipped and called it quits after her having five babies, three of which are mine.

        I am what can be considered a young father, I actively surf, fish, skateboard, attend concerts, etc.. when time and money affords of course. There was no logical reason my son bailed in the manner which he did, and it has been gnawing at me, I did blame myself, I did feel like I failed somehow, and honestly, I feared he hated me, and our family.

        Now, I have great reassurance NONE of that applies!

        Instead, in replaying events, which I finally have found some closure (almost a year later)... a million pounds of stress HAS indeed been lifted. Also, thanks to the awesome responses, great feedback, and my decision to post here (even at the risk of future business) - I have been able to perform some serious 'quality control' on mama bear, our daughters, and received soe great counsel myself! Thank-You!

        This has not necessarily stopped us from seeking the truth, or investing in the well being of our son or his child.

        That does not change the fact she lied to our boy, and caused huge amounts of stress on the whole, when she told him she was already pregnant in April 2012 - while he was still a minor.

        Think about it, it's a great compliment to me; that my son, "under the belief" she was already pregnant... sacrificed his first love, his family, and everything he cared about... to step-up and assume the responsibility of what he believed was a woman "with his child."

        THAT's MY BOY!!!

        Now, as happy as this makes me, and I can now cry tears of joy (unlike the several shed in his absence) - I am in a whole-nother state of AWE.

        I RESPECT him now, and understand the challenges he was facing to...

        A.) Keep this from me (and his immediate family) because he was willing to do as I hopefully instilled/influenced in him which was: protect the life of his child!
        B.) He broke off all relations with his first, which I know had to be killing him!
        C.) He turned on his Mama, as did I when she learned my wife was pregnant, probably not uncommon, as mama's love their babies (*at least most of em)
        D.) He and I were supposed to get a tattoo on his 18th birthday (our very first, btw) with artwork we each drew for each other (*we both draw and possess some artistic qualities)
        E.) Forfeited inheriting my lifted 1990 Dodge Ramcharger 4x4 (bad ass 360 engine) I promised him, if applied himself and worked the detail gig. *Which I wanted to customize to his liking, with him.
        F.) Help him in acquiring his driver's license, which I don't think he possesses yet (?), as he dropped out, and was unable to qualify for until turning 18 - certainly let him drive prior in safe environments...

        While I am sure there's much, much more he surrendered in belief she was 'with child' and now... I RESPECT HIM for that, and am truly PROUD, HE IS MY SON. [a real tear-jerker there boy!]

        Down to the business...

        Is is fair to this child, his sisters, his mom, his ex girlfriend, this other family, the mother, or anyone that she did violate my son in a very, very selfish way?

        Sure, I don't know why, or what her true motives were to entrap him, and I will NOT pull this ace-in-the-hole card, less it be; she and/or her boys leave me no other option or put my child and his child (if it is his) in harms way EVER again. -Still working on forgiving that part... time will tell.

        My son is a freedom-fighter for the greater good, this proves my work is done... but is it really? - Is it ever with our children?

        Surely not for me.

        I am in a whole new mindset right now, as I finally have closure, all the laziness, the teenager drama he caused, the dirty laundry, is NOW CLEAN.

        Unfortunately, I still have not had contact really. Surely we will discuss how proud of him I am, how much I love him, and how it was "killing me" in his absence, and how it all makes greater sense now... Ultimately, he did the right thing. I wouldn't have asked for anything less.

        "The hardest part?"

        Seems to keep rearing it's head... is to make sure he's happy, if so, I'll leave the whole April -vs- June debate alone... (hard as it may be) provided he's happy.

        This leaving me only one real question;

        He (may or may not) have done the math, and he (may or may not) have figured out that she had already misled him, I truly don't know.

        If he has done the math and now acknowledges he DID get taken advantage of, burned, set up, misled, whatever you wanna call it , - how can I discount his intelligence to know whether his message to his sister stating: "due date was supposed to be January 2013" - was it intentionally mentioned? - or a clue for us to follow? - as chances are., he's already sick of the environment?

        I don't expect an answer of course, just can't bear letting certain details go, it's an OCD thing perhaps, lol.

        No matter how you slice it, this woman wasn't exactly considerate in her decisions or the actions she took to manipulate this boy, and though it takes 2 to tango, he may not have had the resistance to say no, nor perhaps even a choice, pier pressure is a b..th! Being they are 500-700 miles away doesn't exactly solve any problems either, which to me only puts greater insult on this woman, for running away, as opposed to facing her demons. Not mine, hers!

        Again, not my main focus, as of this very moment, I found my PEACE!

        Thanks.

        All the Best,

        Art

        PS - My daughter (my little modeler, lol) just GPS'ed the phone call they just had, and they are in N. Charleston, SC... [grins...] - we're working on mending some wounds and sending a gift now. - I just hope this IS his child, and that's NOT a lie too. For now, I prefer to accept it is... whoop whoop!

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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
        I know you aren't going to like this.. BUT:

        In SC, the age of consent is 16.

        At 17, you're considered an adult.

        So rape (even stat.) wouldn't apply... sorry man

        edit: oh, just saw your latest post - glad to hear things are starting to get better!
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

          I know you aren't going to like this.. BUT:

          In SC, the age of consent is 16.

          At 17, you're considered an adult.

          So rape (even stat.) wouldn't apply... sorry man

          edit: oh, just saw your latest post - glad to hear things are starting to get better!
          My grandmother had 3 kids by the time she was seventeen and married at 13 to a twenty year old man, staying that way for over 50 years...this is all stigma.

          If its love its love, if its not its not...time will tell. Far be it from a man as loving as Art obviously is, to stand in the way if by chance it is true.

          The older I get, the more accepting I am of things I cannot control. Acceptance is where peace is at.

          Accepting that you have enemies, accepting that your kids are their own people.

          As Kahlil Gibran says in the "Prophet" - The children are the arrows, and God is the archer, we are only the bow that the archer springs the arrows from.

          Not less important, for the archer loves the bow which is steady, as much as he loves the arrows that fly.

          We dont ultimately own our children. Thier dreams exist in places where we wouldn't even be able to go if we wanted to.

          I know, it sucks. lol

          We can only love unconditionally.
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        • Profile picture of the author art72
          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

          I know you aren't going to like this.. BUT:

          In SC, the age of consent is 16.

          At 17, you're considered an adult.

          So rape (even stat.) wouldn't apply... sorry man

          edit: oh, just saw your latest post - glad to hear things are starting to get better!
          Thank-You!

          Yeah, I had already dug through that information. Though it can be regarded as irrelevant now, as I am accepting (*as John stated in his post) that this is my son's life, and what will will be.

          Had I considered pursuing legal action, the 'crime' itself was actually committed here in Florida, which has a strict policy on statutory rape on any victim under the age of 18. So, in theory (as it's a dead issue now) we would've attempted to have her charged in Florida, not South Carolina.

          Just sayin.

          John, I may have to read that book, I like the metaphorical analogy used to describe our relationship with our kids... Bullseye!

          All the Best,

          Art
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    Update:

    Just got off the phone with my son, expressed my understanding in his choice to keep things a secret. He IS happy, and so am I. Huge, huge, burden has been relieved for both of us. -We are NOT divided any longer, we ARE unified.

    We now have their address, and are planning a trip next month.

    I told him to tell "mama bear" not to fret, we are very understanding, and we pose no threat! He explained that she 'wasn't' supposed to be able to conceive after the car accident... I told him this is a miracle baby then! -Thanks to the advice here, I left the other sh-t alone... I am forever grateful!

    We didn't get to talk long as "his entourage" all took turns talking to him. He is shocked, we handled it this well, cause he knows; we don't play when it comes to family.

    Let It Be...

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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      Update:

      Just got off the phone with my son, expressed my understanding in his choice to keep things a secret. He IS happy, and so am I. Huge, huge, burden has been relieved for both of us. -We are NOT divided any longer, we ARE unified.

      We now have their address, and are planning a trip next month.

      I told him to tell "mama bear" not to fret, we are very understanding, and we pose no threat! He explained that she 'wasn't' supposed to be able to conceive after the car accident... I told him this is a miracle baby then! -Thanks to the advice here, I left the other sh-t alone... I am forever grateful!

      We didn't get to talk long as "his entourage" all took turns talking to him. He is shocked, we handled it this well, cause he knows; we don't play when it comes to family.

      Let It Be...

      Eminem - Not Afraid - YouTube
      I am so very very happy for you!

      Congratulations!

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author art72
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        I am so very very happy for you!

        Congratulations!

        Terra
        Thank-You!

        That may very well have been the hardest lesson I ever had to learn. I mean this stuff was built up for a year, and though I was dealing with his absence to the best of my ability during that time, learning of my grandson's birth was far more shocking then news of my wife's conception of my son, and that was a doosie!

        Can't imagine what kind of dramatic entrance the first great grandchild might make... if I'm lucky enough to see that day, it might kill me!

        Art
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I'm impressed by you and your family. Yes, I said "modeling " (as in copying) because I felt your daughter was sharing your distate for the woman your son is with.

      I could fully understand your anger and frustration - you never stop being a parent no matter how old your children are. But as a parent you learn to accept their choices as they grow even though they aren't the choices you would have made for them.

      Sometimes I think in a crisis you have to express the outrage and rant a while before settling down to solving the problem. You'll still have moments of anger - just don't have them round him and you'll be fine.:p

      No matter where he lives or who he lives with or what he's done - maintaining the connection with your son is the most important thing.
      Good for you!
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      • Profile picture of the author art72
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I'm impressed by you and your family.
        Thank-You!

        At the moment, I am quite impressed with them myself. Perhaps, in my son more than anyone now that I understand the challenges he faced in all this, and in going it alone to protect his child. -Priceless.

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Yes, I said "modeling " (as in copying) because I felt your daughter was sharing your distate for the woman your son is with.
        I am proud of my daughters and how they stepped-up and took the high road, and did so with great restraint, in order to preserve their love for their brother. As did mama bear.

        It wasn't easy for my girls to 'hold back' their emotions and the pain his absence caused our family. We (mom and I) have done our best to teach our girls to stand up for themselves, and 'fight' for what they believe in.

        I am doing my best (as a man) to encourage these girls to be 'very' independent, self-sufficient woman. So they do not heavily rely on, or tolerate no BS from a man (their brother included) or other women who never learned to do the same.

        In this regard, I have witnessed too many women who are/have been taken advantage of, and get severely hurt emotionally and physically by placing too much reliance on a man.

        Perhaps, this woman is still in healing herself, and searching for that 'comfort' in my son because he's young and non-threatening, as I am sure she has had great difficulty in overcoming her dependencies on past relationships. With with 4 boys as a daily reminder, I empathize for her, as I wouldn't wish that upon my daughters.

        Therefore, I sincerely believe this is a direct result of her engaging in relations with my son. My daughters see it too, and hence their distaste. I certainly wish the circumstances were different, especially for this woman, as I am sure she is suffering, luckily for her we are 'optimists' who look for the greater good, and in providing comfort to those who truly need it. -She is a prime candidate, as are her boys... clearly, a message I was too blind too see at first.

        I've witnessed similar hardships with my mother, my wife, and several woman in my family who in search for companionship fall victim to that reliance on men, and all too many times sacrifice who they are in return. I personally detest seeing this happen to women, especially when it involves members of my family... or especially, children.

        This is 'how' I found forgiveness for this woman, not sympathy per se, but mercy!

        Took it minute to process it all... but I do empathize for this woman now, and her boys who seemingly have no father. Who knows, maybe I'll step-up and embrace her boys later and be able to provide some guidance to them as well, as they are now an extension of our family as a result. -*So long as they stay away from my girls!:p

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        No matter where he lives or who he lives with or what he's done - maintaining the connection with your son is the most important thing.
        Good for you!
        Yeah... that was the whole issue really, the 'abrupt' disconnect. With no communication, I prayed for the best and prepared for the worst -or- so I had thought.

        I've never been one to 'tell' others how to live their life outside of my children, with them I felt obligated too 'instruct' them. Now, he's establishing his manhood, and facing similar responsibilities to his son, and I realize how hard it's going to be for me to "throttle back" in letting him handle his own affairs, and in accepting whatever happens, happens, and just being there to catch him if he does fall. It's a transition I wasn't ready to make, but the circumstances now demand it, as several have pointed out, many whom who've been in my shoes or similar.

        I certainly don't want to be that grumpy old fart that get's all up in his families business, that's for sure! - That might cramp my style.

        Being I accepted the role as his life's 'teacher' has made me a greater 'student' of life itself, whereby, all the time I spent guiding him, a part of me had appeared lost forever. Now, the tables have turned, and I feel like he just 'taught' me something, and I'm finding out for myself that unconditional love does reciprocate. As parents, I think we all we come to find out that we are merely 'students' ourselves in attempting to 'teach' our children.

        In doing this, we find a higher measure of our true self - like John said... karma, what comes around goes around... it still amazes me how we get exactly what we want, only when it get's here we don't always see it that way!

        -Some of the lessons I have learned from my son in this experience have led me to find myself, the part I thought was lost, is not lost, it's living on in him as I had hoped - and that feels pretty f'ing good to know, it was not wasted as I feared.

        Thank-You Kay... I am really grateful I reached out here, the result/responses were far greater than I expected possible. As I have often said; "Humility is a great teacher, once the embarrassment wears off!"

        On behalf of my family and myself;

        "Thank-You ALL for Your Support "


        All the Best,

        Art
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Awesome news Art!
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Awesome news Art!
      Thanks for sticking it out on my thread man, that was some wicked places my son's first born took me to, and I learned a lot in applying what you, Kay, and several others shared.

      Forever indebted for that John, Thank-You!

      Art

      PS - I am amazed at the speed to which this resolved itself, it could've been ugly. I'm grateful it wasn't. Now we just let them play out their relationship and hope for the best possible outcomes.
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  • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
    Art,

    Wow. I am just blown away by this, but delighted by your last post. Hope that meeting goes well.

    Thinking of you.
    Di
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by DianaHeuser View Post

      Art,

      Wow. I am just blown away by this, but delighted by your last post. Hope that meeting goes well.

      Thinking of you.
      Di
      Di,

      Thank-You.

      While I never shared my reason for my abrupt disconnect (12-15 months ago) from this forum and all things marketing, it was directly related to my son's initial disappearance back in February 2012.

      Clearly, I apologize to those who were my friends (and acquaintances) on this forum, and those who were being very supportive of my interests in pursuing and achieving personal success through online marketing. As it goes without saying; Di, you were one of those people whom I maintain a great respect towards. As remains so, with others who have PM'd me after reading this thread.

      Truly this thread started as an 'outcry' to the difficulties I was facing as a father, and though I questioned whether it's content was welcomed here (?) -it truly proved miraculous to have received the attention, responses, and the support that it provided in finding a resolve.

      To all who shared similar hardships, advice, and who provided a greater perception of a situation I was initially blinded by...Thank You again for helping me see what was important... For that I am forever grateful!

      I certainly could not foresee any resolve when this thread began, and yet the speed in which it all took shape, and a years worth of anguish that unfolded during that time (in 4 days basically)... I am grateful I found my way back to this forum and elected to seek answers and share in the end results. Truly, I don't believe the outcome would've been so sweet had I not... not even close.

      While I am looking forward to embracing my grandson, and seeing my son again in the near future, I wanted to share a picture until I can...

      My son Austin, and Grandson; Travis



      This experience (despite some severe hardships) has become my greatest motivator since the day my wife announced being pregnant with my son.

      Thank-You All for your support!

      All the Best,

      Art
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  • Profile picture of the author barefut
    Congrats, Art. It was interesting to see everything unfold and you're spot on, unconditional love does reciprocate (just not always immediately or as soon as we'd like!)
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Two handsome guys buddy. No wonder older women like him! What a beautiful pic! You are going to be in love with that Grandson. Congrats.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    What a beautiful baby! Mazel Tov!

    I have read all the posts here. I am reminded of a dear friend of mine and his family. They seem to thrive on drama and Facebook only adds fuel to the frequent fires. For now it seems like things are calming down between you and your son. But if they heat up again, if it were me, I would pull back. Don't get sucked into the drama. I strongly suspect the mama is going to be providing plenty for years to come.

    Another thing, the mama is a child molester. As much is possible, I would keep my eyes and ears open. It disturbs me to think she has 4 other male children of her own in the home.

    About statutory rape, a lot of states changed their laws to reflect that 18 year olds are dating 16 year olds and this is perfectly natural. Thus within certain age ranges, statutory rape depends more on the spacing between the ages than the actual ages. Florida may well have updated their laws as well. It didn't make sense to send so many 18 year olds to jail for something they were doing the day before that was legal.

    I wish you a lot of luck. You are going to need it. This is just the beginning. I think a lot of how you set the tone now will influence how the next 18 years go with the new grandchild.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      You are right that the tone set now will determine the future of the family relationships - but I don't think the child molester comment is helpful or useful.

      You either commit to making something work - or you continue to add to the drama. Thankfully, Art has chosen to make it work.

      Son and Grandson are both good looking guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    I disagree. How would you characterize an adult woman who allegedly had sex with a minor and disguised him to hide him? If it were my child and grandchild and I was forced to have this woman in my life I would prefer to err on the side of useless and keep a close eye on her as relates at least to my flesh and blood.
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

      I disagree. How would you characterize an adult woman who allegedly had sex with a minor and disguised him to hide him? If it were my child and grandchild and I was forced to have this woman in my life I would prefer to err on the side of useless and keep a close eye on her as relates at least to my flesh and blood.
      LeeLee, I appreciate your taking the time to read the thread, and Thank-You for your compliments on my grandson, he is adorable.

      While I appreciate what you are saying, we, as a family have come to realize; "IF" we continued to view this woman with such animosity, such hatred, and chose to stew in that melting pot seeking revenge (which was my initial mindset btw) - the affects of that pressure cooker (mindset) would eventually 'implode' - and then force actions and reactions that would jeopardize the greater priority... my sons happiness, and the well being of both my child and my grandson. Neither would such anger serve as a solution, nor a be it a recipe I'd care to indulge in. The 'choking hazard' it could have on our future relationship with our son and grandchild, is truly not worth the slaughter of this woman. Whether she was wrong or not is now irrelevant, as there lies greater priorities.

      Believe me, I wanted to take matters into my own hands at the start of this thread, and I think it was very clear, my motive was to seek justice... or at face value; revenge.

      Thankfully, Kay, John, and others proposed an alternative; to do what's right for my grandson and my son. Clearly, the ONLY viable solution in this fragile situation.

      Certainly, I'd hate to have the authorities (CPS, Police, Foster care, etc...) intervene, and destroy the very relationship that I am now regaining with my son, and the future relationship I plan to build with my grandson. I am sure there may be some big bumps in the road between my son and this woman, without us (his Mom, his sisters, and I) invoking a personal war against her.

      It wasn't easy to take the high road on this one, and there's still a chance my son will call on us, at which point; he now knows we are there for him, no matter what!

      All the Best,

      Art

      PS - He and I have spoken daily by phone, and he has held nothing back in admitting he too needed some closure, as he feared the worst had he informed us of his relations with this woman. Thus, without provocation, he sincerely apologized to us, and admitted carrying this secret was the hardest thing he's ever had to do in his life.

      Isn't it strange how through such tragedies... often befalls great wisdom.
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      Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    The link leads to the book online, complete with illustrations...



    On Children
    Kahlil Gibran


    Your children are not your children.
    They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
    They come through you but not from you,

    And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
    You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
    For they have their own thoughts.

    You may house their bodies but not their souls,
    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
    which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

    You may strive to be like them,
    but seek not to make them like you.
    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

    You are the bows from which your children
    as living arrows are sent forth.

    The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
    and He bends you with His might
    that His arrows may go swift and far.

    Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
    For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
    so He loves also the bow that is stable.


    Note: Still, it sucks, wish I could control mine sometimes! lol But thats not nature.
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      The link leads to the book online, complete with illustrations...



      On Children
      Kahlil Gibran


      Your children are not your children.
      They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
      They come through you but not from you,

      And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
      You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
      For they have their own thoughts.

      You may house their bodies but not their souls,
      For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
      which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

      You may strive to be like them,
      but seek not to make them like you.
      For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

      You are the bows from which your children
      as living arrows are sent forth.

      The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
      and He bends you with His might
      that His arrows may go swift and far.

      Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
      For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
      so He loves also the bow that is stable.


      Note: Still, it sucks, wish I could control mine sometimes! lol But thats not nature.
      Good stuff.

      Having just learned he is the 3rd best-selling poet of all time, I am almost embarrassed to admit; until today, I had never heard of him.

      Thanks for the links. I too am a big fan of the Early Modern English upheld by 'literary visionaries' of old. It's almost a shame we've Baste*dized the English language greatly from it's original conception, and the works of William Tyndale who is believed to have inspired Shakespeare to use and build upon our old English vernacular. If I recall Tyndale is accredited for having formulated a large percentage of the modern English terms we still use (and abuse) today.

      Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I was lead down some heavy history lessons in my quest for understanding my American heritage and our forefathers... long after I quit school, and came by way of tapping into a higher power.

      As a believer that all creation possesses an artistic resonance (and as a artist of sort myself) - I admire the creativity and philosophical mindset of those who build upon that which is good, as Kahlil Gibran and his work reflect... right up my alley.

      I gave my daughter a copy of my favorite speech: Patrick Henry's "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" speech dated March 23, 1775 to my (now 17 year old) on her 12th birthday... she thought I was crazy -*probably so, in my hope she'd appreciate the underlying strengths of his speech. . Now, she understands the 'message' and 'importance' of preserving freedom, as it requires great courage.

      Any way, I am a big fan of all things designed to encourage growth from a cultivators perspective.

      Especially, peace!

      Art
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      Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    Art-

    I am not sure my thoughts came across as I intended them. I distinctly said to avoid the drama as much as possible. And it seems you are trying to do that.

    I did not mean to imply in any way that you should back track the whole minor thing. What I did mean, however, is something is not right with this woman, including her sexual choices. And on that basis I would keep my eyes open.

    You don't have to perpetuate any animosity with the woman. You can let go of any bygones. But if it was me, I would be keeping my eyes open if only for the sake of your grandchild and other children in her care.

    It's kind of like the saying I forgive but I don't forget.

    Now that I have butted in with my unsolicited two cents, I will back on out. I wish you and your growing family all the love and happiness in the world.
    Signature
    The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials. ~ Lin Yutang
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    • Profile picture of the author art72
      Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

      Art-

      I am not sure my thoughts came across as I intended them. I distinctly said to avoid the drama as much as possible. And it seems you are trying to do that.

      I did not mean to imply in any way that you should back track the whole minor thing. What I did mean, however, is something is not right with this woman, including her sexual choices. And on that basis I would keep my eyes open.

      You don't have to perpetuate any animosity with the woman. You can let go of any bygones. But if it was me, I would be keeping my eyes open if only for the sake of your grandchild and other children in her care.

      It's kind of like the saying I forgive but I don't forget.

      Now that I have butted in with my unsolicited two cents, I will back on out. I wish you and your growing family all the love and happiness in the world.
      LeeLee,

      Thanks for clarifying... I wasn't at all misinterpreting what you were saying, as we ARE keeping our eyes and ears to the wall, as concerned parents and in the interests of the baby, our son, and all the children involved, including her own.

      Certainly, from the information we've gathered so far, and through several phone conversations with my son recently (*one which just now ended after an hour or so) - I am pleased to report she is actually 34 (not 40, not that it really matters now) and in my son's own words; "we get along great, plus she's got the body of a sixteen year old..." - to hear this does add hope to what John mentioned, which it's either love or it's not, now we have elected to let that be their decision... even though stepping back is still a difficult step in 'letting it go' of our son in his becoming a man.

      All the Best,

      Art
      Signature
      Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Great thread! Glad things worked out for you Art. Congrats.
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        • Profile picture of the author dmorrow
          Hello Art,

          I am thankful that your family's situation is smoothing out. I have watched a VERY similar situation occur to someone who I love dearly, and I know some of the pain your family is feeling. As I was reading this thread, some things occurred to me.

          Just as your son has been your closest friend, you have been his. I want you to KNOW that he has missed talking things over with you while he has been going thru this whole thing. We miss our friends the most when life happens. I am so glad that you both are talking now. That's a connection that this woman cannot get between if you don't let anger, contempt and vengeance cloud your conversation. Your son will lean on you in days to come if you let him be his own person, and don't try to run his life.

          Let him be the one to notice that she has BIG issues. Try very hard not to fix him/them. The time may come when he asks for your help, and you don't want to close that door beforehand.

          Your grandson's mother- I have felt like an adult since I was 13, and I sure don't feel like I'm 60, Art. She may only feel about 20, mentally. The strong, manly qualities that you and your wife have instilled in your son may have been a huge draw for her. Yes, we know that the relationship is inappropriate, absolutely. They do, too. That's why they (she) hid it.

          I have observed that when adults party/hang with teenagers, many times, they adopt a teenage mindset. If the kids become their peers, their friends, and if drugs, drinking, sex are part of the mix, the age boundaries cease to matter, because they have become your buddies. We all party with our buds.

          Let this whole thing be a booster for your prayer life. Let it drive you closer to your God, Art. God can send her far away, or He can help you to love her dearly. Let God fix it. He will. Give Him time to change hearts and open eyes. Sex can blind the participants. Give time a chance to work.

          Offer them sympathy, understanding, but not money. Your boy won't be the first one to flip burgers or work 3 part time jobs to support a family, and I can say from experience that Walmart is probably hiring. (Third shift workers make more money there.) Just let them/him come to you so he won't feel crowded or treated like a kid, and she won't feel guarded. You want to give her no ammunition to use in the future battle for your son's love and loyalty. She may make a loving partner, but if she doesn't, be sure to be waiting in the background.

          Donna

          And oh, THE BABY IS BEAUTIFUL! AND SO IS YOUR LITTLE GUY!
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          • Profile picture of the author art72
            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post


            Just as your son has been your closest friend, you have been his. I want you to KNOW that he has missed talking things over with you while he has been going thru this whole thing. We miss our friends the most when life happens. I am so glad that you both are talking now. That's a connection that this woman cannot get between if you don't let anger, contempt and vengeance cloud your conversation. Your son will lean on you in days to come if you let him be his own person, and don't try to run his life.
            Thank You.

            He is already confiding in me, as I am him. The real relief came when we started talking recently, and that 'silent' evidence that he still respects me and wanted my approval definitely carried a lot of weight.

            It is difficult to skirt my concerns and hold my tongue about certain details of their relationship, and yet, the answers we seek often come without us having to ask the hard questions. A practice I am still learning.

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            I have felt like an adult since I was 13
            I know the feeling well, as I too took the elevator to my adulthood early in life. And at 40, I still feel 20 myself, which is a good thing I believe.

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            Yes, we know that the relationship is inappropriate, absolutely. They do, too. That's why they (she) hid it.
            Yep, that's the one that has me biting my lip, and as time passes I think we'll be able to ignore her/their mistake.

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            I have observed that when adults party/hang with teenagers, many times, they adopt a teenage mindset. If the kids become their peers, their friends, and if drugs, drinking, sex are part of the mix, the age boundaries cease to matter, because they have become your buddies. We all party with our buds.
            I agree for the most part. However, I have NEVER personally chose to exceed the above and cross the line in having sex with a minor, nor do I intend to, as I never felt it was appropriate. If my wife left me, and an 18 yr old showed interest... that could be problematic, and a tough call... one I will likely never have to make.

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            Let this whole thing be a booster for your prayer life. Let it drive you closer to your God, Art. God can send her far away, or He can help you to love her dearly. Let God fix it. He will. Give Him time to change hearts and open eyes. Sex can blind the participants. Give time a chance to work.
            I appreciate the way you phrased the bolded above. I do believe in a higher power, in fact, I always have being raised as such. In that journey, I have experienced and witnessed divine happenings that defy words.

            There too, I have seen misappropriated and misinterpreted teachings being abused in the religious sects, and I don't stand for it, at all.

            I believe prayer is empowering, and I often refer to it as meditation, as for me they are one in the same, as we disconnect from worldly woes and connect spiritually into that which fuels our being... always a good practice!

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            Offer them sympathy, understanding, but not money. You want to give her no ammunition to use in the future battle for your son's love and loyalty. She may make a loving partner, but if she doesn't, be sure to be waiting in the background.
            Solid advice!

            Originally Posted by dmorrow View Post

            And oh, THE BABY IS BEAUTIFUL! AND SO IS YOUR LITTLE GUY!
            Yes indeed. Thank-You

            Art
            Signature
            Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!
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            • Profile picture of the author dmorrow
              "It is difficult to skirt my concerns and hold my tongue about certain details of their relationship, and yet, the answers we seek often come without us having to ask the hard questions. A practice I am still learning."

              Me too, Art. For those of us with strong opinions, it is very hard to not force them upon others, yet because your son has chosen to declare himself an adult by his actions, you will see the wisdom in self- restraint. It's only your business when he makes it your business. Invitation only.

              When he was 15, my son and I were having one of those conversations where I was giving advice (lecturing) and he was listening (tolerating my input.)

              He told me what I have never forgotten: "Mom, you raised me to know right from wrong. I will make my own decisions. It's up to me to choose." He felt like an adult, and spoke from that viewpoint.

              I realized that if I wanted to keep the door open to talk in the years ahead, I needed to back off. It is just plain hard to learn where the new boundaries are when your kids are grown. But inside, I was like, " LISTEN, BOY- I knew you when you didn't have brains yet, and they still aren't all there, so you'd better listen to what I'm telling you !!!" * snarl growl growl snarl w/lotsa volume *

              Now, through my friendship with my grown son, I am coming to see what a pushy person I can be when I WANT TO HELP YOU AND YOU WILL LET ME. Ugly. Just ugly.

              "I know the feeling well, as I too took the elevator to my adulthood early in life. And at 40, I still feel 20 myself, which is a good thing I believe."

              See, that's what I meant when I referred to his girlfriend not being an adult, mentally and emotionally.

              My son's father was 32, I was 18 when we became a family. He wasn't 32, mentally, and I was older than 18, mentally.

              Where two people's minds meet becomes their reality. I'm a strong believer in "be who you are." Now obviously, we ought not always act on who we are, but we must be honest in our dealing with others. And with ourselves, but that's a lot harder than it sounds, because you can't fix what you can't see.

              Your family's tact and gentleness towards your son and his family will hopefully make them feel safe enough to confide their feelings of regret as time goes by.

              If this lady has any desire to be honest, perhaps she'll open up and ask forgiveness, though maybe not in so many words. Time will tell. Meanwhile, you and your wife have your son back, and his son too.

              Life can be good. My best to you and your family, Art.

              Donna
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I went through a period where I listened to the prophet in my car for an entire year straight to try and burn these beautiful concepts in and internalize them. Time to do it again for a month! Whenever I get ahold of a teaching I like I try intentionally to go over so many times that its memorized and burned into the being.

    I know its time to do it again when I start trying to control everything around me.
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