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Will Verizon Survive This?

by Kay King
131 replies
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Wow - if you use Verizon phone service - you might want to read this.

Report: NSA Secretly Collecting Phone Records Of All U.S. Verizon Calls | TechCrunch

...and there's a new head of the NSA who has proven she does what she's told.

...and I have to wonder how many other secrets "bills" have been passed and whether this is linked to the new data collection center the govt will be running
this year.

I think we're falling into the rabbit hole and I fear few people are paying attention.
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Phone companies have been illegally playing with phone calls for a LOT of years. I worked as a researcher for US West at one time - that was around 87 and they were already violating laws left and right. When the phone companies tapped calls illegally during the Bush era, people found out so Bush signed a law that would exonerate them from guilt.

    I also remember quite some years back - maybe as long as 15 or so - that some people were conspiring to make phone calls for hours and just hit target words to see if we could make it melt down. Never could get enough people to believe Echelon was more than a conspiracy theory.

    Truth be told - there isn't much they don't know about you any more. They don't bother with any of it until you become a person of interest - but if you do something such as attend a protest, you can bet that all sorts of info about you is being studied.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I'm 83% sure the US Gov is tracking anything they want to track. NSA trumps any law, inside or outside the US. Doesn't matter If anyone agrees, it won't change anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Relax.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Governments tend to go corrupt, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE A LOT OF HELP. On the BRIGHT side, this usually leads to a total collapse, or a far better government. Of course that usually takes many years. I just hope those that are responsible pay DEARLY. Short term, many are EXTREMELY rich, and even the poor don't really have to worry about money.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The levels of corruption, mismanagement and arrogance have reached proportions I did not expect. When I see Bashir on MSNBC using the race card because it's the only weapon he has left....it's pretty bad.

      We feel righteous about our freedoms and believe we are in the info age with computers and social media. I'm thinking perhaps this era may be known as the misinformation age of spin, hidden facts and secretly repressed rights.

      In Cincinnati a poll worker who voted multiple times was found guilty this spring and could get up to 6 yrs in jail. Right up until she was found guilty, this woman insisted she had a "right" to do anything necessary to keep her political choice in power.

      In Hamilton County, two other people were found guilty of voting multiple times but since they admitted guilt were not fully prosecuted. Three additional people have been indicted for voting multiple times and those cases are pending.

      That's six cases of voter fraud found in one small county in Ohio. Not a one time thing - several of these folks admitted to submitting multiple votes from 2008 through 2012....and none of them were caught until after the elections. How many counties are in this country? Makes you think, doesn't it?
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I just heard more detail about this. It is ILLEGAL! Basically, it IS a violation of the 4th amendment and could be argued to be against the first amendment.

    It equates to a certain technique. I forget the actual name, but it is just one tiny step below a phone tap. In fact, many get such records to FACILITATE a phone tap.

    HECK, I one time had a problem with an operator once, and said that it was URGENT that I get connected, and it was an emergency. BIG MISTAKE! She was brain dead, and connected me with the fire department or something, and thus delayed the call MORE! What if people were calling in bomb threats at that time? The police might figure that I was one of them EVEN though I NEVER wanted to talk to them.

    My mother, when she was here, dialed who knows what. Should I be connected with such calls? I mean the number WAS registered to me.

    If you call a person, that happens to be a criminal, too much, YOU may get investigated!

    This info USED to require a subpoena! Now, it may be instantly updated on a federal network. If you call a relative, or friend, of criminal, or suspect, YOU may be investigated. Oh yeah, they may also tap your phone.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    A copyright is a copyright! You MAY NOT copy novel expressions, content, or format, or the substance of the book as a whole and may be limited even in part. Historically it has been interpreted as simply, "YOU MAY NOT COPY"!

    "Legally" you are required ONLY to do something like: © 2004 by Company Name.

    But LAWYERS say that that is ANCIENT! They say that that concept was obsolete even in the 1400s! All must be spelled out, and the copyright statement never mentioned books! So THEIR answer is to add something ELSE, like:

    "All rights reserved. No part of this document may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of Company Name."

    I guess they would argue that voting 10000 times is NOT illegal because the aliases are different, may be in a different county/city/state, and are not registered citizens.

    I am all for catching the bad guys, and making it easy. In the past, I was for things like the miranda warnings, etc... But few ever REALLY care about the miranda warnings and things like this are WORSE.

    The people 5000+ years ago, no less than the "founding fathers of the USA" KNEW this would happen. It was a GIVEN! The rules are NOT outdated or incomplete. Things were NOT detailed because there was no detail TO be specified. If the president asked if I could loan him $2, or take him across the street, perhaps I should say NO, because I have NO AUSTRALIAN dollars and am nowhere near ABBY road! You see how these lawyers think?

    If some limit WERE detailed, there would be the assumption that things not covered would be OK!

    TODAY, much of the personal information of EVERYONE in the USA, heck, perhaps the PLANET could be collected in one spot and reduced to a chip that could easily be hidden almost ANYWHERE, IN PLAIN SITE! It would be nearly invisible on XRAY and unlikely to trigger metal detectors, and it is ******************CHEAP****************! If worse comes to worse, you can put it in a ballon and swallow it. You
    can buy it at nearly any store, for less than the cost of a fast food meal in the US. MOST corporations and government offices have NO real concept of secrecy or security.

    With all that, do we REALLY want to allow ANYONE to do the ONE expensive and slow step?

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    They talk about percentages...the 99% and the 1%, the 97% and the 3%,but they are applying it to the wrong data.
    The real 1% and 3% are the ones with their eyes open to what is going on while the other 97% or 99% are sheeple.....

    Just sayin"
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      They talk about percentages...the 99% and the 1%, the 97% and the 3%,but they are applying it to the wrong data.
      The real 1% and 3% are the ones with their eyes open to what is going on while the other 97% or 99% are sheeple.....

      Just sayin"
      It isn't even 99%! They have found some that are WELL into the 1% that were staying with the "99%". And MOST of the 99% would NEVER do what they did! Still more would NEVER follow those people as they did. Still more would not even BE ABLE to do that! They would have to belong to like 4 groups or WELL INTO any of them, to have all of that. In fact nearly 100% of those following those that led them into the buildings, etc,,, were in ONE specific group. And they had some VERY expensive food! Many in the top 1% don't eat such expensive food.

      To make it even LESS likely to be 99%, the "99%" are told that people like me are in the 1%. Well, according to the IRS, financially, I am only in the 17%.

      BESIDES, if they are SO independent of society, and have SO much time, and are SO willing to do that, and SO conscious of the environment , why don't they get their government to ceed over part of the public parks, and they could live THERE! It would be PARADISE!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Sure they will because most people aren't concerned about any snooping on them and most people have nothing to fear from the snooping.

    Note: I'm not saying the snooping is right but...

    Most people are not going to go through the hassle of leaving Verizon over this issue and I wouldn't be surprised if other major carriers are doing the same thing as Verizon - so where does the public turn?

    Will new carriers come on the scene and garner all the switch business with a slogans like

    ..."We won't snoop for the Feds"?

    I think not.


    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      The telecommunication industry has been in bed with our gov't for decades. Under the Patriot's Act Bushit had the law behind him. They just go to the Fisa Court and VOILA! This Homeland Security B.S covers all bases.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        most people have nothing to fear from the snooping.
        For a long time, I agreed with that stance. I wasn't doing anything wrong so why should I care if someone wanted to know about my boring calls or emails.

        Today I think we have to look at it differently. There is a "what if" that goes along with this snooping.

        The focus isn't the info IN the emails/calls - it's the tracking of where you are and who you call and how often you call them. That is chilling. THAT is what this bill was about.

        What I don't understand at ALL is I'm seeing some of the talking heads defending this practice who are the same people insisting it's an "invasion of privacy" to ask voters to show ID. That's about as two-faced as it gets, even in media and political circles.

        Today I think we have to look at where events might GO instead of shrugging off something as irrelevant. It was revealed a couple weeks ago that overweight people and smokers will be paying 30-50% more for insurance when the health care plan is fully implemented. Then it was mentioned those with high blood pressure or high cholesterol or other "risk factors" might also have to pay more.

        Doesn't that go back to the old way of those who can afford health care get it? Except that everyone, including taxpayers, will be paying more?

        When the big data center opens in the fall - will the Verizon and other "skimmed" data go into those huge data banks? How many years before a subversive group or a crooked politician finds a way to use that data to manipulate the economy or society? How hard would a takeover of the govt be if all the info about all the citizens was available for the taking from one huge central databank?

        No, I'm not saying this would happen. I am saying the more info the govt collects and stores about our personal lives and daily habits, the more at risk we may be sometime in the future.

        Things we do can put us on a list of people "to watch" even though there's nothing to see. I regularly call someone with a very high security clearance - could that be a problem? Would that put me on a watch list - even though he's my son?

        Would someone in govt see this as "family conversation" or suspect something darker? The problem with data collection is seldom the data - it's the mindset of those interpreting the data.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I still say most people have nothing to fear from the snooping - not that I'm in favor of it.

    We can (and will) spin "what ifs" until the cows come home.


    If...


    ...9-11 had never happened, this type of snooping would not be possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      very true - I guess just once I'd like to see us act on "what if's" before there's a crisis. Whistling Dixie on that one, I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    The National Security Advisor ( I assume that is who you are referring to ), doesn't head the NSA.
    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


    ...and there's a new head of the NSA who has proven she does what she's told.
    Regarding the collecting of phone records, what can be done is to vote people into office who will not vote to extend the Patriot Act when it expires again. It was extended last time by a vote in the house of 250-153 and in the Senate of 72-23.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      The National Security Advisor ( I assume that is who you are referring to ), doesn't head the NSA.

      Regarding the collecting of phone records, what can be done is to vote people into office who will not vote to extend the Patriot Act when it expires again. It was extended last time by a vote in the house of 250-153 and in the Senate of 72-23.
      Problem there Tim is it's getting harder to tell who they will be.
      Even though it passed the house and senate, the guy at the top still had to sign it.
      There's plenty of places to spread the blame on this one.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        You're right - my error. The NSA head is a man - and the one I referred to is a Cabinet Level appointment.

        The head of the NSA is the person who said a couple months ago that no data was being collected from the public. The other one - Cabinet Level - is now in position to claim executive privilege to avoid answering questions about Benghazi. I'd put them in the same box and use a lot of duct tape...but...that would be frowned upon.

        U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program - The Washington Post

        The story above hit this afternoon. It's linked to this?
        PRISM was Built for Government | Compusearch

        I seem to recall reading years ago that the NSA had become outdated and had lost funding and power in the years prior to 911. It was considered old fashioned as it had focused mainly on the Cold War. Seems to have regained power and funding in recent years. It was meant, as I understand it, to conduct investigations and connections between someone here and a foreign entity - not to collect information of citizens...but I could be wrong about that, too. Just my impression.

        At any rate, I expect Wellingtons are selling out these days. Certainly need some kind of wader to get through the mess.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          You're right - my error. The NSA head is a man - and the one I referred to is a Cabinet Level appointment.

          The head of the NSA is the person who said a couple months ago that no data was being collected from the public. The other one - Cabinet Level - is now in position to claim executive privilege to avoid answering questions about Benghazi. I'd put them in the same box and use a lot of duct tape...but...that would be frowned upon.

          U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program - The Washington Post

          The story above hit this afternoon. It's linked to this?
          PRISM was Built for Government | Compusearch

          I seem to recall reading years ago that the NSA had become outdated and had lost funding and power in the years prior to 911. It was considered old fashioned as it had focused mainly on the Cold War. Seems to have regained power and funding in recent years. It was meant, as I understand it, to conduct investigations and connections between someone here and a foreign entity - not to collect information of citizens...but I could be wrong about that, too. Just my impression.

          At any rate, I expect Wellingtons are selling out these days. Certainly need some kind of wader to get through the mess.
          I LOVE your idea about a new use for duct tape.

          The idea that the cold war is dead is a STUPID BS MYTH! Do north korea, and china still parade weapons and have a huge army? Does Russia STILL make/sell/threaten use of weapons? The answer to ALL three is YES! SO, ERGO, the cold war is STILL on! OK, OK, maybe it IS getting hotter, but a cold war is PREFERABLE to a HOT one!

          AND, there is a theory..... Maybe it isn't true.... That the russians are inciting a group to attack western Europe and the US. OK, MAYBE it isn't true.... *****BUT*****: They ARE saying some nasty things! They ARE providing training! They ARE providing support! They ARE providing weapons! They ARE providing ammo! They HAVE effectively pledged to defend! Unlike other areas, they DON'T seem to be complaining about this other group.

          Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Talk about beating a dead horse. That poor horse never even did anything and it's been dead for about 9 months. :/

          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          The other one - Cabinet Level - is now in position to claim executive privilege to avoid answering questions about Benghazi.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Tim - the horse may be dead....but so are four Americans.

            They died in service of their country. They were sons/husbands/fathers/patriots - their families deserve better than to be "old news" when questions have not been answered.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Of course I believe it and most Americans do also. It's a non story kept alive by certain segments of the media and unfortunately some people drink the cool aid all day long.
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            Oh please. They need to go ahead and nuke this thread, because idiocy is on display.

            Do they pay you to post this idiocy, are are you actually a true believer?
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              a non story
              There are half a dozen simple, straight forward questions that must be answered before we move on. The media only wants a story - the pols only want to bury the story - the public needs to stand for those who died because no one else will. Cutesy kool-aid comments just don't cut it with this story.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                It's a partisan issue Kay and you obviously are on the same side you are usually on even though in this same thread you talk about putting partisan politics aside. :/ The pols on one side sure don't want to bury the story. The ones shamelessly using the deaths of these four brave Americans for political reasons to me is very obvious and it isn't the side you are accusing of not answering questions.
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                the pols only want to bury the story -
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  It's a partisan issue Kay and you obviously are on the same side you are usually on even though in this same thread you talk about putting partisan politics aside. :/ The pols on one side sure don't want to bury the story. The ones shamelessly using the deaths of these four brave Americans for political reasons to me is very obvious and it isn't the side you are accusing of not answering questions.
                  How are DEATHS partisan? I don't even know the party the dead people and those belong to. What difference does it make. This whole thing started wth what you posted in #31.

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Hmm, how could I start something by a post where I respond to what Kay posted, which I quoted? :/
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    This whole thing started wth what you posted in #31.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
                      --Benjamin Franklin

                      Blackstone Formulation: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

                      There will be attacks but if we give up our basic rights and freedoms out of fear - what is there to defend?

                      I'm not against surveillance for a reason - I'm against blanket data collection as business as usual. Both parties are equally guilty - that doesn't make it acceptable.

                      We had a clear warning about the Boston bomber - would collecting data from all citizens have changed anything? No. An illusion of safety does not translate to reality.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                        Here's just one difference between Benghazi and Iran/Contra.
                        On March 4, 1987, Reagan returned to the airwaves in a nationally televised address, taking full responsibility for any actions that he was unaware of, and admitting that "what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages"Iran
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                        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
                          The real problem with this AND the IRS debacle, the journalists getting slapped and one more little item the police overstepping their bounds in many cases. As in the deaf woman that got her face beaten by police for not moving when she was told to even though they admit they saw her sign them saying WHAT? As in what are you wanting me to do? They beat her pretty bad just for not complying to verbal orders, hello - she's deaf! Plus, who gave them the right to harm someone just for standing there?

                          The problem with all that is; our rights are being trampled. No matter what you believe for faith or no faith. In the constitution our rights are God given. So, how is it that a MAN can take them away?

                          I also agree with KayKing that very few are paying attention.

                          Patrick
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          Actually both the Pres and the SOS said the same thing as Reagan.
                          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                          Here's just one difference between Benghazi and Iran/Contra.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            Actually both the Pres and the SOS said the same thing as Reagan.
                            Yeah no they didn't Tim. One said what difference does it make and the other hasn't taken responsibility for anything. Unless you call saying all the time "I didn't know anything about it" taking responsibility. Same line he's used for the D.O.J. scandals and the IRS scandals.
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                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                              "I am ultimately responsible for what's taking place there because these are my folks, and I'm the one who has to greet those coffins when they come home," - Obama Oct 16 2012.

                              "As I have said many times since September 11, I take responsibility." - Clinton 1-23-13

                              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                              Yeah no they didn't Tim. One said what difference does it make and the other hasn't taken responsibility for anything. Unless you call saying all the time "I didn't know anything about it" taking responsibility. Same line he's used for the D.O.J. scandals and the IRS scandals.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                "I am ultimately responsible for what's taking place there because these are my folks, and I'm the one who has to greet those coffins when they come home," - Obama Oct 16 2012.

                                "As I have said many times since September 11, I take responsibility." - Clinton 1-23-13
                                So why are they so invasive about releasing what happened and what role they played in it?
                                Why have those that where in the region and have confirmed that they where told not to help demoted or fired? Why have they changed what you and them call talking points so many times.
                                Why aren't they being 100% cooperative with the investigation.
                                When Regan took the blame there was already a congressional hearing on the scandal. Oh, yeah people where also convicted (even though Bush did pardon them). Why is this administration being so secretive?
                                How many scandals have come to light recently that the admin claims to have no knowledge of.
                                The current pres. blames everything on the republicans just like the former pres. blamed everything on the democrats.
                                Maybe instead of defending him you should be demanding a through investigation. If they acted like you seem to think they did, then the truth will come out and it will be proven they are innocent of all charges.
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                      • Profile picture of the author serryjw
                        KAY/TIM...My favorite Ben Franklin quote... I have never voted GOP in my life and voted Dems maybe 50% of the time. I am more libertarian. I WANT TO KNOW what happened. EVERYONE should demand to know. This SHOULD NOT BE PARTISAN POLITICS. WHO screwed up. We have 4 dead Americans. I would think that EVERY Embassy should be Fort Knox on 9-11...WHY wasn't it.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Of course I believe it and most Americans do also.

              It's a non story kept alive by certain segments of the media and unfortunately some people drink the cool aid all day long.

              LOL!

              I guess this is the place.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Most Americans don't even know about Benghazi.
                Of course Dems. are screaming it's a partisan issue. Anything to detract from an investigation. It's a tried and true method of avoiding the issue that both sides use.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  I'm just saying it's a partisan issue because that is what the polls show. One side thinks it's worse than Iran/Contra ( IMO ridiculous. I mean that was a Pres negotiating with kidnappers/terrorists and funding a war illegally and Benghazi is about changing talking points. :/ ) the other side thinks it's a not an issue Congress should be concerned with.
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  Most Americans don't even know about Benghazi.
                  Of course Dems. are screaming it's a partisan issue. Anything to detract from an investigation. It's a tried and true method of avoiding the issue that both sides use.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    I'm just saying it's a partisan issue because that is what the polls show. One side thinks it's worse than Iran/Contra ( IMO ridiculous. I mean that was a Pres negotiating with kidnappers/terrorists and funding a war illegally and Benghazi is about changing talking points. :/ ) the other side thinks it's a not an issue Congress should be concerned with.
                    Which pretty much proves my point.
                    Benghazi is about 4 dead Americans and the administration changing their story (talking points) to distant themselves from the situation.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Talk about beating a dead horse. That poor horse never even did anything and it's been dead for about 9 months. :/

            Hey Tim, I found this chart showing attacks on U.S. embassies since 1970.

            Here's plenty of proof (for those interested), that embassy detail is a very dangerous job during any admin.

            Attacks have happened before and they'll probably happen again but no one tried to make political hay of out a disastrous embassy attack until now - not anything like this.


            I couldn't get a count on the number of American deaths involved with all the attacks but...


            ... I also found an article that said that under the previous admin there were at least 11 attacks resulting in around 52 American deaths.


            Why wasn't a lot of political hay made out of all those tragedies??????


            IMHO...


            #1: It wouldn't have been the right thing to do.


            #2 it couldn't be sold to the majority of the American people much like this issue is not selling and...


            #3, there would be a backlash as it would have been seen as an extra, extra, extra petty political attack that would turn lots of people off to the perpetrators.


            Of course our embassies and staff need to be fully protected as much as possible but in these extra dangerous times, someone decided to cut funds for embassy protection...


            ... and that very same group has been trying to make political hay out of our latest embassy tragedy ever since it happened.


            Lead by those in congress (who voted to cut embassy protection funds), a highly watched cable news channel, a gaggle of talking heads and further bolstered by a MSM seeking sensation - any way it can...


            ...I'm not surprised that they've found a very willing and large group of Americans to join them in one of their latest crusades as always - no matter how ridiculous a particular charge may be.


            Note: I am not calling the deaths of any Americans in the service of our country ridiculous.


            BTW...

            You're right in that most Americans polled think someone is making a bit too much out of the tragedy - for political purposes to the tune of about 65% of those polled.


            I'm not going to bother going round and round in here on this or any other subject. I have better things to do.


            Anyways...

            Here's that chart... (for folks interested in gaining understanding)




            Here's the article by MJ that accompanied the chart...


            The Truth About Attacks on Our Diplomats:

            Subtitled...

            Shocker: When terrorists attack US interests abroad, they don't distinguish between administrations that are "projecting weakness" or practicing "peace through strength."


            The Truth About Attacks on Our Diplomats | Mother Jones


            All The Best!!


            TL


            Ps. Tim, have you heard about that county that wants to succeed from Colorado?

            Some folks are calling it Crackpottopia!

            LOL!!
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Hey Tim, I found this chart showing attacks on U.S. embassies since 1970.

              Here's plenty of proof (for those interested), that embassy detail is a very dangerous job during any admin.

              Attacks have happened before and they'll probably happen again but no one tried to make political hay of out a disastrous embassy attack until now - not anything like this

              [...]
              Embassy detail is EXTREMELY hazardous, and everyone knows it. What's more, the post wasn't an embassy, or a consulate, but a 'diplomatic mission' - posts that are usually right in the thick of things. The 'political hay' that's being made is because we want unequivocal answers to the big question - "Why weren't these people helped when they called for it?"

              Why wasn't a lot of political hay made out of all those tragedies??????
              [...]
              Because in all of the other ones, no information surfaced that cries for help from Americans being attacked were ignored.

              Of course our embassies and staff need to be fully protected as much as possible but in these extra dangerous times, someone decided to cut funds for embassy protection...

              ... and that very same group has been trying to make political hay out of our latest embassy tragedy ever since it happened.

              Lead by those in congress (who voted to cut embassy protection funds), a highly watched cable news channel, a gaggle of talking heads and further bolstered by a MSM seeking sensation - any way it can...

              ...I'm not surprised that they've found a very willing and large group of Americans to join them in one of their latest crusades as always - no matter how ridiculous a particular charge may be.
              Maybe you should take a closer look at the real situation instead of continuing to parrot the party line:
              Moreover, while Boxer claims that Republicans “cut” the budget, she is only comparing it to what the Obama administration proposed. The reality is that funding for embassy security has increased significantly in recent years.


              “The Department of State’s base requests for security funding have increased by 38 percent since Fiscal Year (FY) 2007, and base budget appropriations have increased by 27 percent in the same time period,” said the bipartisan Senate Homeland Security Committee report on the Benghazi attack.


              The report added that baseline funding requests have not been fully funded since fiscal year 2010, but noted that Congress had been responsive in providing “Overseas Contingency Operations” funds to the State Department in response to emergent security-driven requests, mainly for Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
              Source:
              Barbara Boxer’s claim that GOP budgets hampered Benghazi security - The Washington Post

              Note Washington POST, not Washington TIMES.

              Knowing their propensity to adhere to the democrat party talking points, it might be wise to lower the blinders for a minute.

              You're right in that most Americans polled think someone is making a bit too much out of the tragedy - for political purposes to the tune of about 65% of those polled.
              I would be wanting the answer regardless of who was President.

              If the true answer is that "We tried, but we couldn't get there in time," I would be totally satisfied. But we have gotten so far from the administration is shined on.

              For anyone interested in what really happened, this heavily-sourced article on Wikipedia actually goes over it pretty well: 2012 Benghazi attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              The 'political hay' is being made because there are legitimate questions as to why the administration didn't tell the American people the truth when it knew it. Was it because they were afraid the truth would hurt Obama's reelection effort? Was it simply an exercise in Washington, D.C.-style CYA efforts? Was it because those who were in charge were really that misinformed about what was happening?

              I'm not going to bother going round and round in here on this or any other subject. I have better things to do.
              Would that were truly so
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Been answered already.

                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                "Why weren't these people helped when they called for it?"
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Problem there Tim is it's getting harder to tell who they will be.
        Even though it passed the house and senate, the guy at the top still had to sign it.
        There's plenty of places to spread the blame on this one.

        ALSO, there is NO way to determine who is for it! It is a pretty well known fact that this is played like a game of chess. People that are FOR it may actually vote AGAINST it when they know it will pass. Meanwhile, people that will soon retire, have another job lined up, or have LOTS of support, will vote FOR it!

        BTW if the measure will pass, and their votes may hurt it, they will simply vote PRESENT! And ever see how long it takes them to make a vote? They often make up their minds hours or YEARS ahead of time and yet it takes SO long to vote? I have no doubt they are discussing options on who could vote.

        So a vote the unpopular way may be a clear indication they feel that way, but a vote in the other direction often does NOT! BTW popularity is determined based on the political makeup of THEIR constituents. Sometimes that may SEEM unpopular and may even be against the party platform! A good example of this was republican votes on a particular issue until the mid 60s. I WOULD say what the issue was but.... Anyway, many democrats outside an area voted AGAINST their party, though nearly all in the area voted WITH the party! Some republicans INSIDE the area voted AGAINST THEIR party, the percentage was much higher than those outside. The location was clearly more important than the party.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I'm not convinced it matters WHO is pulling the strings. I think it's gotten to the point where both sides of the aisle like the power.

          I think the message from the public needs to be "NO - STOP" no matter which side those members of the public vote for.

          We have been falling for the old saw of "divide and conquer" to the point where we argue "sides" rather than issues. We all need to stop buying into the partisan rhetoric from all corners and demand accountability and responsibility and transparency from every elected official and every political appointee.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I'm not convinced it matters WHO is pulling the strings. I think it's gotten to the point where both sides of the aisle like the power.

            I think the message from the public needs to be "NO - STOP" no matter which side those members of the public vote for.

            We have been falling for the old saw of "divide and conquer" to the point where we argue "sides" rather than issues. We all need to stop buying into the partisan rhetoric from all corners and demand accountability and responsibility and transparency from every elected official and every political appointee.
            I've been beating that horse for years Kay.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Lay off that poor horse, Thom - beat the people instead
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            • Profile picture of the author KimW
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              I've been beating that horse for years Kay.
              Ha, I don't know if anyone remembers,but before I put my picture up as my avatar,it was a skeleton beating a dead horse.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alton Hargrave
                Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                Ha, I don't know if anyone remembers,but before I put my picture up as my avatar,it was a skeleton beating a dead horse.
                I remember that.

                It appears to me that some of the legislators are not keeping up with what they are voting on from time to time. And, whenever the president wants a law to do something and feels like the legislature will not or has declined to pass legislation, he just goes around them and does what he likes.

                Further, when he or one of his merry men is caught red-handed, breaking the law or the intent of the law, they just dodge any investigation using lies and delays. In fact, lately that seem to have it down to a fine art. Just look at the frustration the house committees are feeling as they attempt to get to the truth on the ever-growing number of scandals.

                I think history will regard these years of the Obama administration as a dark period in our history. A period in which no meaningful legislation (ObamaCare's days are numbered), a period in which we let our national treasure slip away. Not only is the money gone, but we are losing our respect as a nation. Last, but not least, so many of our people have changed from people that worked hard and took pride in their accomplishment into people that do as little as they have to from day to day and keep an eye on the mailbox, waiting for the check to come.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  That's just because it came right after the oh so bright days of the prior admin right? Those were the days!

                  Originally Posted by Alton Hargrave View Post


                  I think history will regard these years of the Obama administration as a dark period in our history.
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                  • Profile picture of the author KimW
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    That's just because it came right after the oh so bright days of the prior admin right? Those were the days!
                    Two darks don't make a light....
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                  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                    Your assumption that those who disagree with the current administration must be enthusiastic supporters of the previous administration is invalid.

                    Joe Mobley


                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    That's just because it came right after the oh so bright days of the prior admin right? Those were the days!
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      Didn't say that at all of course but thanks anyways for putting words in my mouth. My point was more that old Dubya really knew how to do a scandal. These current so called "scandals" all put together don't amount to a hill of beans comparatively. They just don't make scandals like they used to. Sigh.

                      Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                      Your assumption that those who disagree with the current administration must be enthusiastic supporters of the previous administration is invalid.

                      Joe Mobley
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                    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                      Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                      Your assumption that those who disagree with the current administration must be enthusiastic supporters of the previous administration is invalid.

                      Joe Mobley
                      Amen, Bro. I have been trying to get across that the parties are just a ruse to make people think that it's one party or the other that is violating them. One party craps on us and so everyone runs to elect the other party - then they crap on us and everyone runs back. We need to start electing ALL reps based on record and personal integrity or nothing will get better. The only difference between the parties is the method they use to steal your freedom and money.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                        Amen, Bro. I have been trying to get across that the parties are just a ruse to make people think that it's one party or the other that is violating them. One party craps on us and so everyone runs to elect the other party - then they crap on us and everyone runs back. We need to start electing ALL reps based on record and personal integrity or nothing will get better. The only difference between the parties is the method they use to steal your freedom and money.
                        Even notifying people how others voted, at least if it is a certain way, is now effectively illegal. You can't do it in a church, school, etc.... If you happen to be tax exempt in any way, and mention it, you will get it PULLED, etc....

                        It starts to become very hard to get the truth out if you are forbidden in such a manner, and the politicians can say virtually anything against you publicly for free and with NO fear of sanction of any sort.

                        Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I'm not convinced it matters WHO is pulling the strings. I think it's gotten to the point where both sides of the aisle like the power.

            I think the message from the public needs to be "NO - STOP" no matter which side those members of the public vote for.

            We have been falling for the old saw of "divide and conquer" to the point where we argue "sides" rather than issues. We all need to stop buying into the partisan rhetoric from all corners and demand accountability and responsibility and transparency from every elected official and every political appointee.
            Frankly, the idea of constituents, party, offices, self preservation should be ALL practically thrown out the window! Some have said for God, Country, Family. And it should be in that order, with constituents treated as family. They SHOULD think.....

            1. What is best for the PLANET/community of countries(those following the policy here).....
            2. What is best for OUR country....
            3. What is best for the family/constituents.

            To put this in perspective, HERE is what the average politican has done....

            1. What is in it for ME!
            2. What is in it for my personal agenda?
            3. What is in it for my RICH/FAMOUS constituents?
            4. What does my PARTY think?
            5. What is in it for the community of countries, in line with my party?
            6. What is in it for my family at the moment?(NOTE, kids future needs are often NOT really considered)
            7. What about my NON RICH/NON FAMOUS constituents? These guys better belong to a big block!

            Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      The National Security Advisor ( I assume that is who you are referring to ), doesn't head the NSA.

      Regarding the collecting of phone records, what can be done is to vote people into office who will not vote to extend the Patriot Act when it expires again. It was extended last time by a vote in the house of 250-153 and in the Senate of 72-23.

      I have been less vocal and more active in talking to my elected officials about many subjects since the last rounds of elections. Also,thanks to Sal, I am subscribed to a email list that sends out how the representatives vote.

      Every one of my representatives know that my vote is not a "given" because of party lines but a choice I will make based on if the decisions they make are for the good of some corporation or the good of America like it is suppose to be.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      The National Security Advisor ( I assume that is who you are referring to ), doesn't head the NSA.

      Regarding the collecting of phone records, what can be done is to vote people into office who will not vote to extend the Patriot Act when it expires again. It was extended last time by a vote in the house of 250-153 and in the Senate of 72-23.
      I'll never believe that the US Gov won't collect data because of any law. If/when they want data, they'll get data. All they have to do is say it's a security problem, bam, they know your shoe size, lol!

      Seriously though, they only care about laws when something goes in front of a judge/court (public records).
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I'll never believe that the US Gov won't collect data because of any law. If/when they want data, they'll get data. All they have to do is say it's a security problem, bam, they know your shoe size, lol!

        Seriously though, they only care about laws when something goes in front of a judge/court (public records).
        It was once *******IMPOSSIBLE*******! You could NEVER claim "SECURITY"! HECK, the place could be BOMBED with a world war going on, and it was STILL impossible! IT HAPPENED!

        WHY was it impossible? Because EACH class was LIMITED(often to only a few people), and had to be JUDGED, BY A PERSON, on its OWN merits!

        Getting phone records, even this EXACT "METADATA" happens ALL THE TIME! SERIOUSLY, it may happen HUNDREDS of times a day! It has been happening for DECADES! They installed special switches and protocols to make it easier! The difference? It USED to be for a person or family here and there. *****NOW***** it is for EVERYONE!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Sal -

          This might be one time when Anonymous could be useful to some extent.

          Anonymous is sensational but not trusted. The description of " generally angry internet people" pretty much describes them - but also they are full of rhetoric and out-there opinions that the average citizen doesn't buy.

          Having them leak material could change the focus into "finding leaks" instead of "finding truth". We do need whistleblowers - but we don't need them third hand through Anon.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Sal -

            This might be one time when Anonymous could be useful to some extent.

            Anonymous is sensational but not trusted. The description of " generally angry internet people" pretty much describes them - but also they are full of rhetoric and out-there opinions that the average citizen doesn't buy.

            Having them leak material could change the focus into "finding leaks" instead of "finding truth". We do need whistleblowers - but we don't need them third hand through Anon.
            I've always had mixed feelings about that group. We need all the help we can get right now in exposing everyone who is corrupted and every illegal activity they're into. We're in deep crapola and most of the nation is just waking up. What happens here shortly will determine whether we're a free constitutional republic or whether we become the 4th Reich. We NEED groups that can expose anything and everything. If they consider themselves Green and Raspberry Berets or minute men, they are extremely needed. If they have these powers, though, they can turn corrupt at any time. It's a double edged sword, but we're at war right now for every one of our rights, from not being thrown into jail forever without trial or charges to not being allowed to grow and eat nutritious foods. I'm thinking the more exposed and taken care of right now, the less likely we're going to go out in a blood bath.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              I've always had mixed feelings about that group. We need all the help we can get right now in exposing everyone who is corrupted and every illegal activity they're into. We're in deep crapola and most of the nation is just waking up. What happens here shortly will determine whether we're a free constitutional republic or whether we become the 4th Reich. We NEED groups that can expose anything and everything. If they consider themselves Green and Raspberry Berets or minute men, they are extremely needed. If they have these powers, though, they can turn corrupt at any time. It's a double edged sword, but we're at war right now for every one of our rights, from not being thrown into jail forever without trial or charges to not being allowed to grow and eat nutritious foods. I'm thinking the more exposed and taken care of right now, the less likely we're going to go out in a blood bath.
              Ironically, this morning, I looked at some versions of the "die gedanken sind frei" song, and I remembered this cute little song:
              Anyway, I saw a reference to an interesting thing by germans asking if they were really so dumb. It said much of what I have, etc... I looked further. It seems to be associated with "the 99%". They are FAR from me! THEY are part of the PROBLEM. And the international nature of THIS shows it is certainly NOT grass roots. Anyway, it goes to show that you should pick your friends carefully. I will be looking at what THEY do as much as the Americans. It IS interesting though that they said "Welcome back stasi (2.0), and F*** Y**". We currently have SIMILAR problems, with the TSA, "HOMELAND (in)SECURITY" and all.

              As for anonymous? Apparently some videos may be, and likely are, fake. The ones I heard have sounded very good and very bad. So the jury is still out. Maybe they are just troublemakers that want to justify it. WHO KNOWS?

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    This is just the beginning, guys.

    Verizon is just the beginning. And unfortunately.. Other Internet companies have already caved. (Google for example).

    Get used to the notion that you have no privacy.

    Ever.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, allowing investigators to examine e-mails, photos and other documents that can be used to track people and their contacts over time, The Washington Post reported on Thursday.

    The highly classified anti-terrorism program, code-named PRISM, had not been disclosed publicly before. A U.S. government source who was not authorized to comment publicly on the program confirmed its existence to Reuters late on Thursday.

    The program's participants, the Post said, include most of the dominant global players of Silicon Valley: Microsoft Corp, Yahoo Inc, Google Inc, Facebook Inc, PalTalk, AOL Inc, Skype, YouTube and Apple Inc ..
    Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/invest...497_story.html
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Don't shoot the messenger.
      I said that same thing to a friend who was upset over some company policy he'd been told about.

      His answer: "I'll start with the messenger and work my way up"...loved it!
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  • Profile picture of the author salegurus
    I like to keep up with what's happening around me,I want to be as informed as possible. Unfortunately a huge chunk of the population does not seem to care about what's happening in our Capitol. They are more interested in what Justin Bieber had for breakfast.

    That's I think where the problem lies an uninformed electorate who are easily distracted.
    Why else would there be no accountability, politicians seem to get away with a lot more than you're average citizen would...
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I don't see even one person who is concerned with National Security. In case nobody noticed, we have a serious problem with foreign governments condoning hacking and in fact right up into our defense systems secrets. In case nobody has noticed we have a very serious issue with mass murdering terrorists that are already here because we are a "FREE" country.

    Many of the problems we have in this country - are DUE to it being a "FREE COUNTRY" - so let's all sit and worry about your bulls*hit conversations being recorded by evil guverment - if you have something to hide then I hope you get caught up in this -

    So what is the alternative? Just let everybody 'have their way with us' and we can all sit and feel safe because we are FREE and everything is CONFIDENTIAL? That is until somebody plants another bomb?

    Don't bother saying they won't catch them all and you can't feel safe - if they catch even one then it is all worth it.

    So two ways - we are free and have all our rights in tact - and anybody from anywhere can know everything about our national defense - hey just drop in anytime - we are a 'free' country.

    Or, we who have nothing to hide supposedly if we are innocent/honest, will not really mind that something is being done to protect us from our known enemies.

    I am also 'afraid' of 'Big Brother' and of course I don't want a police state - I know that is a terrifying thought - but somehow having my legs blown off at a sports event seems worse.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I don't see even one person who is concerned with National Security. In case nobody noticed, we have a serious problem with foreign governments condoning hacking and in fact right up into our defense systems secrets. In case nobody has noticed we have a very serious issue with mass murdering terrorists that are already here because we are a "FREE" country.

      Many of the problems we have in this country - are DUE to it being a "FREE COUNTRY" - so let's all sit and worry about your bulls*hit conversations being recorded by evil guverment - if you have something to hide then I hope you get caught up in this -

      So what is the alternative? Just let everybody 'have their way with us' and we can all sit and feel safe because we are FREE and everything is CONFIDENTIAL? That is until somebody plants another bomb?

      Don't bother saying they won't catch them all and you can't feel safe - if they catch even one then it is all worth it.

      So two ways - we are free and have all our rights in tact - and anybody from anywhere can know everything about our national defense - hey just drop in anytime - we are a 'free' country.

      Or, we who have nothing to hide supposedly if we are innocent/honest, will not really mind that something is being done to protect us from our known enemies.

      I am also 'afraid' of 'Big Brother' and of course I don't want a police state - I know that is a terrifying thought - but somehow having my legs blown off at a sports event seems worse.
      I COULD say what the solution is! It has been done for THOUSANDS of years! HECK, MOST try to practice it in THEIR own little area to some degree. People pay a LOT of money every year just for IT to SOME degree, NOTE, I say people because it is true of nearly ALL in Europe, the US, much of Asia, etc.... I probably pay about $3000/MONTH! It is EFFECTIVE! IT WORKS! You can have freedom AND security!

      Alas, it may be considered political because it touches on two or three subjects.

      But give up your privacy for "security" and you often end up with NOTHING!!!!!!!!

      BTW the phone "metadata" will not solve ANYTHING! The MOST likely scenario that COULD solve something is:

      1. IF they have a valid suspect they have investigated AND....
      2. IF they check the data in time AND....
      3. IF they find calls too/from a person they did NOT know about, AND.....
      4. IF the people communicate in an understandable fashion, AND....
      5. IF they understand the people, AND....
      6. IF they get the information in time, AND....
      7. IF they act in time.

      YEP, they could stop a disaster. OK, let's say the chances of each is 10%. It is unlikely to be that high, but let's say 10%. OK, the chances are 1 in 10,000,000! HEY, I didn't plan it that way, it just worked out that way.

      The TRUTH? #1? They chase down a LOT of people that do NOTHING, and fail to chase down KNOWN felons! See the boston bombers! #2? They are often LATE! I had a crime happen over 15 years ago, and they STILL haven't solved it. I identified the criminals as well as the eye witnesses did, though I never saw them. I found out where they eat and shop, and a person that could ID them. I also presented evidence that could HANG them! And that was by making ONE phone call(to a store they bought at)! The police basically threw that out and refused to look! Had I not been the one that had my identity basically stolen, I would have found them, called the police, taken pictures, and gotten witnesses together. ALAS, the police would probably NOT come, etc.... Since they claimed I bought goods, they might claim I did so, to get out of a dispute, I choose to let the POLICE confront. That IS supposed to be THEIR job! #3? They may well know the people ANYWAY! #4? It is UNLIKELY that they will talk so clearly! #5? Unlikely for MANY reasons! #6? See 1-5. Do you REALLY think they wiill suddenly be SO much better? #7? NO WAY!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    I bet we're going to see more services like https://silentcircle.com/web/silent-phone/
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      I bet we're going to see more services like https://silentcircle.com/web/silent-phone/
      You're right about THAT! In fact, I just realized a neat little project. I wonder if anyone started it already. But YEAH, there are SO many ways that a person can hde what they are saying over a normal line. And About 5 people dialed a wrong number and reached me last month ALONE! Were any criminals or suspects or related to same in some way? POSSIBLY! So maybe they will tap MY phone. STILL, I don't like the idea of tracking associations in this manner. You have NO context, and don't know if ANY of it is valid.

      BTW I KNOW that my phone calls aren't safe/private. The stupid courts stipulated several years ago that cell phone users have *****NO***** expectation of privacy! GRANTED, it is illegal to say that, but it never stopped them BEFORE! And I have been asked at least 4 times in the past two years to send my SSN through EMAIL. I said ******NO******! On one project, they delayed it TWO WEEKS because THEY couldn't comply wit my demands there. i know how email works and, AGAIN, NO expectation of privacy! I have a friend where, when we discuss non PC matters, we use a special email account. AGAIN, nothing illegal or anything, we just don't want to mix email streams. Given that, if I wanted to discuss something I wanted very secret, I would NOT make it easy to simply tap my phone, etc... I doubt terrorists would.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Exactly Patrick - what is so hard to understand about "inalienable"?

    The problem with being spied on even though "you aren't doing anything wrong" - is that in Fascism, which is what we are sliding into rapidly - anything you do can be made wrong at any time any despot decides to make it so. When there is no rule of law, any action or belief can be decided as illegal at any time and you will be held accountable for it. Use raw milk? People are being arrested for selling raw milk. What if your data turns up that you bought or drank some? Bam - in a corporate for profit prison being put to work for slave wages. Like that? Wrong political belief? Bam - corporate for profit prison working for slave wages.

    Once they have all your data, without rule of law (which is where we are now with our Bill of Rights being shut down one amendment at a time - especially the 4th, 2nd, and now the first) anyone can be considered a criminal any time it suits whoever sits in the deciding position. Since we no longer have real elections, and no longer have the protection of the 4th amendment - we have a militia police force for the first time ever - and a financial system that represses those who do not conform to admin's wishes and no free press. .... we're kinda screwed. It's called Fascism and we're just on the fringe of losing the battle against it. They had people programmed to look at anyone and everyone who saw some of this coming and scream "conspiracy" instead of looking at evidence and thinking about it. Well - cooked our gooses, didn't they?

    Oregon is getting ready to recall a Senator who is a constitutional traitor -- CO just did. If other states follow suit we might get our republic back - but we need more people to fully understand the consequences of each ruling they make or each action that is discovered. The whole nation right now should be out in the streets like they are in Hungary. You see them anywhere? There are some. The media doesn't report it. You have to go to Youtube to find videos of protests in the US for the most part. Watch them while you can -- the "authorities" are now "asking" Youtube to take down videos merely because they make the "authorities" look bad. Facebook is starting to censor, too.

    Benghazi - IRS suppression of one wing of politics - tracking the the Press - Monsanto protection act - Attacks on 2nd, 4th, and now the 1st Amendment. Arrests of school children for miscellaneous offenses (young kids, not older teens).

    If you are still stumped about what is going on, you need to start doing some detailed reading of history books.
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      HEYSAL...I love you. I couldn't have said it better myself.
      Namaste
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      Out of 545, HOW many are NOT constitutional traitors?
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Tim:

    The two most dangerous misconceptions about Gov in the US are:
    1. They wouldn't do that to us
    2. If they did, the news would tell us about it.

    5 scandals and more coming in daily - all dealing with sabotage of our rights - and the White house is either directly involved or didn't even know. Either way -- that is a situation that we HAVE to correct and we have to correct it fast. Without the 4th and 2nd amendments working for us, and with the 1st in danger - if you don't get it yet, you never will. It will only become apparent to you when you realize that just because you support someone who is a traitor to the majority - that you will eventually be betrayed as well. Some people think it depends on whose side you are on and welcome the oppression of those who care about our constitution. The side you are on doesn't matter. It's your position in society. If you are not feeling betrayed by the secret passage of the Monsanto protection act, I don't know what to think your ultimate politics are. Even Russia is threatening war against countries who refuse to stop using poisons that are killing bees - and they will save more lives with that war than they lose to it in the long run if it happens.

    Sad that this type of thing finds support in what used to be a country where people were free to grow and eat the foods they wish to consume. You want the gov to plan your diet when they support GMO food? Dictate your health care allotment? Fine. I don't and our constitution forbids it. And THAT is rule of law. Look up what happens when there is no rule of law -- always, not just sometimes.

    We need to get anyone who SHOULD have been in charge, as well as those who were involved in EVERY ONE of those scandals out of office. Right now the majority of them are just enjoying the right they just passed for themselves to do insider trading and making sure they get every extra dime out of our pockets they can weasel. Our leaders are not supposed to be royalty - they are supposed to be public servants. When there is oppression of political ideology that allows for freedom only of those who support the current powers that be - there is trouble to the xth power. I don't care WHO is in power when that crap rears it's head. It has to be stopped.
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      I don't care WHO is in power when that crap rears it's head. It has to be stopped.
      Hey Sal, Let me go a step further. This country's citizens are doing EXACTLY what both sides want. We make it partisan. We fight each other instead of who is really responsible. That is why nothing will ever change. I agree. I don't care which side is in power. If you don't defend the constitution, abuse our civil liberties, we need to remove you from office...with NO exceptions.
      How can anyone expect anything to change when 95%+++ of the 545 in congress get re-elected?
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    A person in the military got PROMOTED! ***********PROMOTED************!
    Because he had a sticker on HIS PERSONAL car, reads books written by some nice authors, and bought chick-fila for HIS PROMOTION PARTY, he has been REPRIMANDED and may have to go to court, etc.... IMAGINE that you are told to NOT read books by certain authors which many in the US RESPECT!

    Die Gedanken Sind Frei - Thoughts Are Free COVER with Lyrics - YouTube

    BTW, just a sidenote.... It is rumored that the resistance in WWII sung this when they were captured, etc... and YKW hated it!

    BTW half of it IS in english here.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Joe,

    You are SO right! I have not been happy with ANY of the administrations. It is simply that I tend to like one party more. If people had a sliding scale, where they could vote for let's say 5 parties, we might have more than 2 viable parties.

    Sometimes I HAVE liked a candidate from another party. In fact I registered under the party that I did ONLY because there was a rule that you could only vote in the primary for your party, and I most agreed with my party's platform.

    The two parties are viable for only THREE reasons!
    1. Some stick with them, for whatever reason. WHO KNOWS WHY?
    2. Some just don't want to hear about any others.
    3. A vote outside of the 2 main parties is almost certain to lose and people would rather vote for the lessor of two evils. If we could vote for say five people, giving a numerical preference, then it would be great Let's say that you needed >50% of the vote. If someone got >50% in first place, they would be president. Failing that, if someone got >50% in the first 2 places, they would be president. Failing that, if someone got >50%
    in the first 3 places, they would be president. Failing that, the first 4. Failing that, the first 5. IF nobody got over 50%, there would be a runoff of the top 3. IF nobody won THEN, you REALLY have problems. if someone only voted for the first 2 people, their vote would STILL be counted as it is today! If nearly everyone only voted for the first two people, the outcome would be IDENTICAL to what it is NOW! The DIFFERENCE is that if someone preferred the libertarian, but preferred the democrat over the republican, they would effectively be able to AUTOMATICALLY and TRANSPARENTLY have a runoff election so their vote counts towards the democrat if the libertarian lost.

    A lot of people in the US even think there are only 2 parties. There are FAR more than that! HERE are the MAJOR ones:


    Political Party States* Founded in Former Titles International Affiliations
    Democratic Party 50 + DC 1828 Alliance of Democrats
    Republican Party 50 + DC 1854 International Democrat Union
    Libertarian Party 50 + DC 1971
    Green Party 37 + DC[2] 1991 Global Greens
    Constitution Party 37[2] 1992 U.S. Taxpayers' Party

    Wikipedia lists about 28 OTHER parties! One of them was created in 1869! Democrat was 1828, and republican was 1854.

    The tea party has TALKED about creating another party, but the current system would NOT support it. MINE would!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Joe,

      Sometimes I HAVE liked a candidate from another party. In fact I registered under the party that I did ONLY because there was a rule that you could only vote in the primary for your party, and I most agreed with my party's platform.

      Steve
      This is where you and I differ. I didn't vote in the primary because of that rule. I love a good party, don't get me wrong, but neither of those parties are ones I care to party with. :p

      Seriously though, I refused to say I had a party when I am not party loyal and didn't appreciate being told I had to pick one. I figure to vote is a right but I also have the right to not vote. I refused to be corralled into one pen or another like a mindless sheep!

      That doesn't mean I didn't vote in the election though.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        This is where you and I differ. I didn't vote in the primary because of that rule. I love a good party, don't get me wrong, but neither of those parties are ones I care to party with. :p
        Actually, I haven't registered with a party in decades.

        Seriously though, I refused to say I had a party when I am not party loyal and didn't appreciate being told I had to pick one. I figure to vote is a right but I also have the right to not vote. I refused to be corralled into one pen or another like a mindless sheep!
        Same here

        That doesn't mean I didn't vote in the election though.
        Glad to hear it. The options were BAD, BUT....

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    And HEY - meanwhile back at the Ranch -- Anonymous has published some leaked NSA documents.

    http://gizmodo.com/anonymous-just-le...ents-511854773

    So is this the part where the Calvary arrives just in time?
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  • Profile picture of the author paulbutler
    This is illegal. Invasion of privacy. Although it is probable that most companies are doing the same thing, for some reason the media is targeting Verizon...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This is illegal. Invasion of privacy. Although it is probable that most companies are doing the same thing, for some reason the media is targeting Verizon...
      Have you read the thread? It not media targeting Verizon.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Have you read the thread? It not media targeting Verizon.
        Yeah, apparently it has been revealed that Tmobile and AT&T are ALSO affected!

        As for verizon, et al... giving out the data, THAT is illegal! The government getting it without a reasonable reason, and SPECIFIC subpoena, is illegal. As for the media reporting on it? THAT IS THEIR JOB!

        BTW I said specific subpoena. A search warrant doesn't say you can just search.
        Search Warrant | LII / Legal Information Institute

        OBTAINING A SEARCH WARRANT

        Only judges may issue search warrants. To obtain a warrant, law enforcement officers must show that there is probable cause to believe a search is justified. Officers must support this showing with sworn statements (affidavits), and must describe in particularity the place they will search and the items they will seize. Judges must consider the totality of the circumstances when deciding whether or not to issue the warrant. When issuing a search warrant, the judge may restrict the when and how the police may conduct the search.

        The Fourth Amendment does not require officers seeking a warrant to show that the people or places to be searched committed any crime. Rather, they merely need to show probable cause that the sought-after evidence is there. For example, in Zurcher v. Stanford Daily, 436 U.S. 547 (1978), the Supreme Court allowed police to search a student newspaper, where the newspaper was not implicated in any criminal activity but police suspected it had photographic evidence of the identities of demonstrators who assaulted police officers. However, some jurisdictions responded by passing laws restricting or forbidding these kinds of searches. See, e.g., CA Penal Code § 1524.

        top


        REASONABLENESS REQUIREMENT

        Courts use a reasonableness test when considering whether a search violates the federal Constitution. This reasonableness test preempts other state and federal laws. Thus, for example, if a "no-knock" entry is unreasonable at the time police execute a search warrant, they must knock and announce their presence, even if they have a no-knock warrant. Similarly, when determining whether to apply the Exclusionary Rule in light of police deviations from warrant restrictions, courts consider whether the search, as actually executed, was unreasonable.


        So WHAT information is given out here? WHAT is the "metadata"? Basically ALL the LATA info! That includes location, FULL phone number, call, to WHOM the phone phone call was made, and how long the call was. Think about it a moment, and you can see how that info can be used!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Bush is the one who enabled this one. If you've been watching my "tinfoil" posts, LOL (time to say I told ya so), I've been stating that there is a continuum of elites we have to break through to get our constitutional footing again. Our "royalty" is passing positions back and forth for the most part and each admin takes more ground on what the party in charge did before it.

    In relation to the 9/11 incident Bush asked phone companies to "eavesdrop" AT$T and a few other large corps were implicated. Instead of telling him to FO and acting with morality and legality - they complied and people who don't scream about tinfoil every time an official takes illegal liberties, found out. There were mega lawsuits being initiated - when Bush exonerated the corporations from prosecution. So that's where it stood when O took office. Same way as if you get an untested vaccine and it causes major damage or death, you can no longer sue the company that made and distributed the untested and tainted vaccine.

    This is why I thanked Joe for posting:
    Your assumption that those who disagree with the current administration must be enthusiastic supporters of the previous administration is invalid.
    I understand the continuum. Some people look only at a past event or a present event - they look only at a bill and no supporting documents they refer to. To be fully informed, you have to understand the continuum. What we are looking at is not a disjointed incident - it was set up over several admins.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I understand the continuum. Some people look only at a past event or a present event - they look only at a bill and no supporting documents they refer to. To be fully informed, you have to understand the continuum. What we are looking at is not a disjointed incident - it was set up over several admins.
      BTW the first video I watched from that german protest group illustrated an analogy I often mentioned HERE. The frog in the tepid water.

      OH, he says to himself. I am OK with this! WARM! But then the water gradually gets hotter until he is SCREAMING to escape and no longer can.

      They do the same thing here with taxes, education, inflation, etc... I think THIS YEAR we are well on our way to the $5/gallon gas they have been predicting for a few years. The US is ALSO losing its ability to regulate the price. Ironically, the only way to bring it down may soon be to reduce taxes, but they will probably RAISE them. 50% isn't enough I guess!

      steve
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        BTW the first video I watched from that german protest group illustrated an analogy I often mentioned HERE. The frog in the tepid water.

        OH, he says to himself. I am OK with this! WARM! But then the water gradually gets hotter until he is SCREAMING to escape and no longer can.

        They do the same thing here with taxes, education, inflation, etc... I think THIS YEAR we are well on our way to the $5/gallon gas they have been predicting for a few years. The US is ALSO losing its ability to regulate the price. Ironically, the only way to bring it down may soon be to reduce taxes, but they will probably RAISE them. 50% isn't enough I guess!

        steve
        There's also the fact that there are a lot of people who don't respect the rights of others that don't see a problem with anything.........and do not understand that they aren't on stable ground just because they agree with the current admin. Traitors will turn against anyone and everyone whenever it's convenient to do so. Every fascist regime has supporters who get a very rude shock when they realize that their rights just got yanked, too - or they are being suspect for things that suddenly just aren't okay with their govs. Once you pull the rule of law -- EVERYONE is vulnerable.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Sal,

      This post deserves more than 1 thank you. You are dead-on here.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Bush is the one who enabled this one. If you've been watching my "tinfoil" posts, LOL (time to say I told ya so), I've been stating that there is a continuum of elites we have to break through to get our constitutional footing again. Our "royalty" is passing positions back and forth for the most part and each admin takes more ground on what the party in charge did before it.

      In relation to the 9/11 incident Bush asked phone companies to "eavesdrop" AT and a few other large corps were implicated. Instead of telling him to FO and acting with morality and legality - they complied and people who don't scream about tinfoil every time an official takes illegal liberties, found out. There were mega lawsuits being initiated - when Bush exonerated the corporations from prosecution. So that's where it stood when O took office.
      Bold is mine.

      Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Sal,

        This post deserves more than 1 thank you. You are dead-on here.

        Bold is mine.

        Joe Mobley
        Even BUSH had help! I just looked over the sponsors. I don't think you can even....

        I WILL admit that bush signed it, and fought for it at least after the fact, but he did NOT act alone!

        They make this hard to read and, surprisingly, it is NOT in the standard format, but a little tidbit to whet your appetite:

        I think it is only fitting the Senator from New York is now in the chair as we begin discussion of this legislation because her State was one of those that was badly impacted, terribly impacted, tragically impacted on September 11, as were the people of New Jersey and Connecticut, who worked in the World Trade Towers, and, of course, those at the Pentagon in Virginia, including those in Maryland and the District of Columbia, and actually the whole Nation.

        Today we consider H.R. 3162 , the second House-passed version of the ``Uniting and Strengthening of America Act'' or ``USA Act of 2001.'' Senate passage of this measure without amendment will amount to final passage of this important legislation, and the bill will be sent to the President for his signature. We complete our work six weeks after the September 11 attacks and months ahead of final action following the destruction of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995. The American people and the Members of this body deserve fast work and final action.

        On October 4, I was pleased to introduce with the Majority Leader, Senator *, and the Chairmen of the Banking and Intelligence Committees, as well as the *, the Uniting and Strengthening America, or USA Act. This was not the bill that I, or any of the sponsors, would have written if compromise was unnecessary. Nor was it the bill the Administration had initially proposed and the Attorney General delivered to us on September 19, at a meeting in the Capitol.

        We were able to refine and supplement the Administration's original proposal in a number of ways in the original USA Act, and have continued that process in the development of H.R. 3162 . The Administration accepted a number of the practical steps I had originally proposed on September 19 to improve our security on the Northern Border, assist our Federal, State and local law enforcement officers, and provide compensation to the victims of terrorist acts and to the public safety officers who gave their lives to protect ours. This final version of the USA Act further improves the compromise by including additional important checks on the proposed expansion of government powers that were not contained in the Attorney General's initial proposal.

        Let me outline just ten ways in which we in the bicameral, bipartisan negotiations were able to supplement and improve this legislation from the original proposal we received from the Administration.

        We improved security on the Northern Border;

        We added money laundering;

        We added programs to enhance information sharing and coordination with State and local law enforcement, grants to State and local governments to respond to bioterrorism, and to increase payments to families of fallen firefighters, police officers and other public safety workers;

        We added humanitarian relief to immigrant victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks;

        We added help to the FBI to hire translators;

        We added more comprehensive victims assistance;

        We added measures to fight cybercrime;

        We added measures to fight terrorism against mass transportation systems;

        We added important measures to use technology to make our borders more secure;

        Finally, and most importantly, we were able to include additional important checks on the proposed expansion of government powers contained in the Attorney General's initial proposal.
        I tried to remove names and party affiliations. But clearly congress wanted to do this and apparently added some of the things I, for one, HATE about this bill.

        BTW a SENATOR is speeking to the senate, and WE means congress.

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Well, yeah, the Patriot Act was passed under Bush. In the original vote there was only one vote against it in the Senate I believe. As I posted earlier, in the extension bill there were 23 votes against. I imagine in the next vote for an extension there will be more votes against and it may not even pass.
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Sal,

        This post deserves more than 1 thank you. You are dead-on here.

        Bold is mine.

        Joe Mobley
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Well, yeah, the Patriot Act was passed under Bush. In the original vote there was only one vote against it in the Senate I believe. As I posted earlier, in the extension bill there were 23 votes against. I imagine in the next vote for an extension there will be more votes against and it may not even pass.
          One can only hope.
          (Bold is mine.)

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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Agree completely there. I hardly call that spying, eavesdropping or wiretapping. It's been going on since 2001 and known since 2006, so no new news either.
            A lot of things "since 2001" need to stop before we go too far to step back. The wiretapping was known to occur but info was it was reserved to those who were suspects and to some international calls that might be suspect. Most of us saw it as a way to catch the bad guys - now it turns out big brother is watching everyone all the time. If that doesn't give you a chill, I don't know what would.

            This data gathering covers who you call, how long you talk and where you are when you make the call. It also covers the person you talk to, who he calls and where he is. We're told "don't worry - this is just numbers, not your name" - but all those phone/bank/credit numbers lead straight to your name/location/income/lifestyle/politics/habits....

            The stories have been interesting this week. We're told this was a "leak" and we need to find the "leakers" - then it's a "good time to debate this" - then we're told it's not a secret - but learn the info about this "ruling" is classified and not to be released until 2038. When it comes to excuses I guess we can pick one.

            We don't know how much money is being spent on the huge data center being built or how much is being spent on this spying, excuse me - data gathering, process. We don't know which agencies or other entities may have access to this info once it's accumulated.

            I agree it began under Bush - but this is years later and it has expanded drastically under the current admin. Saying "he did it first" doesn't make it right.

            What bothers me is the totality of the info gathering and the secrecy. Phones, credit transactions and financial info - internet activity and emails. And now we are preparing to turn over our medical insurance and our medical records with oversight by a person who was high up in the IRS (and we've learned how trustworthy those people are).

            If all you can argue is your political leanings - forget it. I don't like the idea of my life being on a government database somewhere. I don't like being "tracked" and I don't care which side is doing it - it's wrong.

            Freedom is more than the right to blurt out what you want to say - it's living without being followed or tracked or monitored. It's the potential of what could be done with this information in the future that frightens me.

            kay
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Steve - there may be more ANONYMOUS groups popping up, too. Doesn't matter to me who the messenger is as long as people start to realize what is coming down in time to stop it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Heysal,

    You are certainly right there. When the whole thing collapses, the most lowly(those with no knowledge, talent, bartering ability, etc... will be the LAST to be helped, and the first to be thrown under the bus.

    ALSO, if they use technology to facilitate their ends, who might support it? If INTEL were hurt, and you used intel chips, a little static(like from a rug!!!!!!! LITERALLY) could destroy the chip! If the manufacturer isn't around, there may be NO way to replace the stuff!

    There are currently about 3 major chip families.(INTEL, AMD, ARM) The basic design for TWO of them was created in the US. The other was created in great britain TWO are US manufacturers. ONE essentially licenses the GUTS, and companies all over the planet, but mostly in asia, produce VARIANTS! So some of them are made in CHINA or south KOREA. Ironically, FEW are created in the US. I wonder if the PTB thought THAT one through! This isn't like planet of the apes where you can throw out a technology and replace it with an earlier variant. ALSO, reverse engineering is difficult at best, and getting harder every month!

    One kid with a pen could play havok with everything!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    What gets me is how "selective" people are in their protests. Verizon makes national news, but not a peep about Google or Facebook?

    Lets put this into perspective, because remember both Google and Facebook responded to requests from the DoJ.

    Google has, for most people, a complete profile about you. Especially if you use Chrome. The websites you visit, your banking and/or credit card information (if you've ever used Google Wallet to pay for something, or AdSense to receive payments), all of your contacts, every e-mail you've sent or received, and every username and password to every site you log into. I've always found it amusing when Google makes you fill out a form asking for name, address, etc. Like they don't already know.

    Facebook has a list of all of your friends and family members, not to mention coworkers and people you went to high school or college with, even if they aren't your friends on Facebook, places you like to hang out, the subjects that interest you, your political leanings, parties you've attended, who you interact with the most, etc. If you're using the mobile app, they know where you are and where you've been even if you don't do "check ins".

    Verizon has a list of phone numbers you've called and the duration. And that's what makes national news?

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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Agree completely there. I hardly call that spying, eavesdropping or wiretapping. It's been going on since 2001 and known since 2006, so no new news either.
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      Verizon has a list of phone numbers you've called and the duration. And that's what makes national news?
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        Agree completely there. I hardly call that spying, eavesdropping or wiretapping.


        It's been going on since 2001 and known since 2006, so no new news either.

        I wonder why this is such a scandal now, granted I think the Prism thing is new...


        BTW,


        Yesterday on my way home from a Maryland state park, I had to drive right past the NSA site at Fort Mead Maryland.

        I wanted to flip them the bird (out the window) as we drove by the massive complex but...

        All The Best!!

        TL
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Google and facebook had THEIR spotlight also. The average program/person only goes so long. I have moved some stuff off google. I AM upset how android works though. I am STILL not on facebook

    But this IS a LITTLE different. The GOVERNMENT is doing THIS, and it is basically STEALING a TECHNOLOGY!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    At least the MSM is finally waking up about Obama. The people who keep deflecting to Bush are missing the point, it never should have happened under him either. But bills were passed and then Bush was gone and Obama promised transparency. Turns out he's no different than Bush or any other politician. None of them have the interests of the people at heart. Unless we get a true Libertarian in office, which let's be honest its never gonna happen, we are screwed no matter who is in office.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      At least the MSM is finally waking up about Obama. The people who keep deflecting to Bush are missing the point, it never should have happened under him either. But bills were passed and then Bush was gone and Obama promised transparency. Turns out he's no different than Bush or any other politician. None of them have the interests of the people at heart.


      Unless we get a true Libertarian in office, which let's be honest its never gonna happen, we are screwed no matter who is in office.
      We could use a NO thank you button around here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I wonder why this is such a scandal now, granted I think the Prism thing is new...
        That's a good question. I think it's due to the secrecy aspect and the expansion of data gathering that has occurred.

        I was against this stuff when it began under the previous admin and I think many people thought that kind of intrusive 'spying' had stopped. Now we find it has increased under a leader who previously spoke out against the practice.

        What I've been interested in is not the opinions of the talking heads in the media - but the face time and quotes of various officials justifying the data dump.

        If this is not a scandal - if the public should have known about it - if it's open to debate - if there's nothing being hidden....why did the message change yesterday to focus on arresting/discrediting/threatening the ex-NSA employee who released this information? If it's ok for the public to know about Prism and data gathering - why is releasing the info (not documents) to the public being called treason? It looks like scrambling for cover to me. I expect the next few days of news will be trying to discredit the informant and deflect attention on the facts.

        This is not a "party" issue any longer as both are equally responsible. It's an issue of big government and of the expectation of privacy and personal freedom.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Kay people and politicians will keep making it a party issue. At least those people who are loyal to one party or the other will. It's just like when kids sat "Well he did it first."
          Look at TL's post listing US diplomatic attacks for a good example.
          The idea is to turn the argument away from where it should be about the current scandal into an argument over which party did it first or which party did it the most.
          It's all about defending their party at the expense of the American people.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I just heard an interesting explanation for why this data gathering is acceptable.

            "We have adults who conceived this idea and are carrying it out for the good of all - you should trust them".

            translation: be good little sheeple
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I just heard an interesting explanation for why this data gathering is acceptable.

              "We have adults who conceived this idea and are carrying it out for the good of all - you should trust them".

              translation: be good little sheeple
              FUNNY! I was thinking just the other day. We SHOULD have another word for "adults". When I was a kid, people told me people change(ethically and all) when they become adults. You know what I found out? THEY DON'T CHANGE AT ALL!!!!! Oh SURE, there are fewer physical fights, but even a LAWSUIT is a fight of a fashion. And SOME kids said "Never trust anyone over 30!" Interesting how, when they become 30, they FORGET that!

              BTW my main job is facilitating DATA MINING. Still, I say this is going too far. I just referenced that loathsome book. Amazon says "One of the most notorious works of modern times". I even bought TWO copies. ONE out of curiosity and to help me with the language, and a jerk borrowed it and never gave it back, and one to replace that. So what would the FBI think of that? As I said, you can't just look at what I do to get a picture of what I am like.

              OH, I could say SO much here but almost ALL tyrannies start the SAME way! Someone gets enough people to believe that THEY are the altruistic one, and will never do ANY harm to the decent people, etc...., I could give lots of other examples of things that are almost ALWAYS true about them, and show lots of proof that is as recent as *******NOW*******! I could even show references to it in a very famous book written in 1867, but,,,,,, You know.

              I used to HATE history! I mean learning even the DATES of things back HUNDREDS of years ago? I knew that book I spoke about was written in the 1800s! I know the history of the country and the attire, so it wasn't the 1700s. It had a PROFOUND impact on the 20th and 21st centuries, so it couldn't have been even the early 1900s. But I had to look it up in wikipedia, to get the exact date. History repeats?!?!?!? WHO would fall for that AGAIN!?!?!?!? Well, I stand corrected! To all those history teachers I spoke against..... You were right!

              Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          ...
          This is not a "party" issue any longer as both are equally responsible. It's an issue of big government and of the expectation of privacy and personal freedom.
          Which all too many people are willing to trade away for a false sense of security.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            Which all too many people are willing to trade away for a false sense of security.
            That scares me more then what the govt. is doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    People complain as they have in THIS very thread, about the patriot act. *****IT***** has been "going on" since 2001. Whenever you say "Why worry? it has been going on since ...." you are saying you ****WANT**** to be the proverbial frog!

    HEY, I hated it then, and I hate it now. If I ever like it, I will then be ok with being shot or something because that is NOT who I want to be.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    This game has already played out. Worst case scenario someone might be forced to step down. Let me ask you, who has gone forward and said the infrastructure for spying on americans must be torn down? Nobody, the thought hasn't even occurred to anyone.

    The IRS scandal is about making sure a third party is ripped apart before it gets a foothold. The left hates everything they stand for, and the right cannot let them exist because they think it bleeds votes from them. Where is the incentive for anyone to let it stop? You can prove this mathematically with a payoff matrix - it takes all of twenty seconds.

    I take it back - these are not scandals, this is how they roll out the new reality. And there is no penalty phase built into this game, so you can be sure things are going to get really bad. As one author put it, "if you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      This game has already played out. Worst case scenario someone might be forced to step down. Let me ask you, who has gone forward and said the infrastructure for spying on americans must be torn down? Nobody, the thought hasn't even occurred to anyone.
      It HAS TO!!!!!!!! In fact, this thread is about ONE small piece of that! Are people against phone records being released? Not really. It has been done almost since day one. Are they against spying on criminals? NOPE! That has been done for THOUSANDS of years, and is expected! The problem HERE is that they get EVERYTHING ASAP! You can BET that a lot of people will be harassed and have their futures destroyed because some IDIOT comes up with some stupid theory. It happens ALL THE TIME, and the constitution was WRITTEN to FRUSTRATE such things!

      The IRS scandal is about making sure a third party is ripped apart before it gets a foothold. The left hates everything they stand for, and the right cannot let them exist because they think it bleeds votes from them. Where is the incentive for anyone to let it stop? You can prove this mathematically with a payoff matrix - it takes all of twenty seconds.
      You are SO wrong! I would illustrate how, etc... but... But MAN is that REALLY pushng the envelope here!

      I take it back - these are not scandals, this is how they roll out the new reality. And there is no penalty phase built into this game, so you can be sure things are going to get really bad. As one author put it, "if you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
      This happens ALL THE TIME! In my short lifetime, I have seen it enough. Since my grandfathers were born, the WORLD has seen it. FEW seem to learn! One person writes ONE book, manages to start an avalanche, and BILLIONS of people are affected. Police reports, agencies, even INDUSTRIES, and it gets SO MUCH PRESS. One takes a variant of it and becomes known by many as the most hated man EVER! OOOPS, sorry! I just googled "most hated man in history". The first site claims he is somehow #2! Oh well, #1 followed the plan I spoke of more closely! They are EVEN listed before vlad the impaler. You know vlad, the guy that inspired dracula!? The second site says he is the most hated man "without a doubt". The next one covering the world said he was #1. The fifth was a farse, but named him #2.

      Oh well, EVEN after THAT so many seem to want to follow the path always feeling that, SOMEHOW, things will be different THIS time! It is interesting that so many, that have, throughout history, felt so FERVENTLY that this should be done, have seemed to almost hide such statements. One actor in hollywood is gradually admitting to more and more of the claims. He is 84 now. I wonder if he will admit the truth before he dies. He IS VERY close at this moment! I guess he felt that, if he admitted at first, he couldn't ridicule congress, and would have to get money elsewhere.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Thanks Steve,

    I googled what you've talked about, and I have to agree with you there.

    I would love to debate you about the IRS thing, I couldn't think of anything more fun. But like you said, this is not the place, and there is that ever present moderator boot ready to stamp our face, forever Which is probably for our own good in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    TL,

    There is SO much behind things like this that one can't trust them. You speak of tax rates? ON WHAT!?!?!?!? In 1980 my taxes could have been on a smaller portion than now. THEN, I could be taxed 100% and conceivably STILL make a profit! NOW, I could lose 3 times what I would have made, and STILL be taxed into oblivion.

    Attacks vary from a minor skirmish where nobody really gets hurt to major ones where the entire country is damaged. Besides, who is to say they are real in ANYONE'S minds? GO AHEAD! Send me the BASE data. **I** am "interested in gaining understanding". SERIOUSLY! HECK, if I don't have enough space for it, I'll buy another drive!

    Do you know how many THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people are looking for what you imply? And I am only counting those that could quickly make such news NATIONAL. It IS interesting that people don't bring that up. They bring so much ELSE up.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Tim,

    I missed that answer. Maybe you can quote it.

    Anyway, I just saw this video. Interesting:

    Andy Griffith Vs the Patriot Act - YouTube

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Steve, there was more than one answer from more than one person. Military/DOD people.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    The gov always does a lot of yacking around real issues - but if you want the truth..........the whistleblowers are the real heroes. Why did the 4 die in Benghazi? Watch the whistleblowers talk on C-span. They explain it all very clearly.

    What's going on with OUR privacy has also just been explained very clearly. How the IRS works for the party in power has also become public knowledge.

    If people aren't getting the clue by this day and age...........well, you just can't fix stupid. If you could, our country would not be in the free fall it's in currently - and our police wouldn't be driving tank like militia vehicles in towns on US soil.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WOW TL! You even called Paul a liar and brought him into this. He said he wasn't on EITHER side, and just didn't like the arguments, etc...., ESPECIALLY since it is a lot to go through for nothing. The sticky doesn't mention a president or anything else, and paul gets angry even when it has NOTHING to do with a president or party. And then ***I*** get lumped in with YOU two guys, Funny, I have been here FAR longer than you and I don't think I have *****EVER***** been accused of ANY advertising and certainly not THIS.

    As further evidence, the complaints follow YOU, and NOT me! You are like the times I was told to be quiet, in class, for when I asked another to SHUTUP! When you weren't here, the complaints stopped.

    You have said a lot of things here I would love to take you to task on, BUT....

    I believe I had ONE sig, and that was to support KIM! GEE, to get my forum fix, because THIS place was so quiet, without you here, I even started posting on two other forums here!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            David - you are not invisible....

            Other forums - like Main section - For hire section - etc. In othe words, other sections on this forum is what I think Steve was referring to. You have to learn to read "Stevalese"
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            • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              David - you are not invisible....

              Other forums - like Main section - For hire section - etc. In othe words, other sections on this forum is what I think Steve was referring to. You have to learn to read "Stevalese"
              I'm just tryin' to lighten the mood a bit. "He who shall not be named" in threads such as this was mentioned, and we have to police ourselves a bit before he gets involved.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I do remember Paul asking folks in here to tone down the anti-admin rhetoric, saying something like the forum didn't allow it for Clinton or Bush and won't allow it now.
              You forgot "and won't allow it for the next President."

              I didn't feel as though you misrepresented my position, but I can see why it might look that way to folks who only saw the "anti-44" comment. Without the historical context, that could lead them to a wrong impression.

              Very few people enjoy an animated discussion more than me. That said, I don't think it's asking too much of adults to at least make an effort to be somewhat civil.

              Remember... I'll be watching.


              Paul

              PS: Sorry, TL, but I couldn't resist.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                You forgot "and won't allow it for the next President."

                I didn't feel as though you misrepresented my position, but I can see why it might look that way to folks who only saw the "anti-44" comment. Without the historical context, that could lead them to a wrong impression.

                Very few people enjoy an animated discussion more than me. That said, I don't think it's asking too much of adults to at least make an effort to be somewhat civil.

                Remember... I'll be watching.


                Paul

                PS: Sorry, TL, but I couldn't resist.
                Paul I want to apologize to you and the forum for my role in things getting out of hand and not keeping it civil. I'd like to blame it on someone else, but bottom line is I'm responsible for my actions. If someone gets under my skin, that's on me for allowing it. Again I apologize and will make a stronger effort to put more thought into what I post before I post it.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                Very few people enjoy an animated discussion more than me.
                They used to be enjoyable. They can still be animated, but I have found that these "controversial" topics have become way too predictable and as a result - boring. On various topics I already know what most of the regular contributors think, where they stand politically, and how they will respond. I know who will pick the fights, I know who will never bend from an opinion (or from their party line), I know where most stand on the environment and global warming, government and politics and even music.

                I try my best to stay out of them now - unless I am REALLY bored myself Otherwise, I see no point. It's like a merry-go-round now.

                Of course, that's just me. Feel free to tell me why I'm just wrong...lol.
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                • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
                  Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                  They used to be enjoyable. They can still be animated, but I have found that these "controversial" topics have become way too predictable and as a result - boring. On various topics I already know what most of the regular contributors think, where they stand politically, and how they will respond. I know who will pick the fights, I know who will never bend from an opinion (or from their party line), I know where most stand on the environment and global warming, government and politics and even music.

                  I try my best to stay out of them now - unless I am REALLY bored myself Otherwise, I see no point. It's like a merry-go-round now.

                  Of course, that's just me. Feel free to tell me why I'm just wrong...lol.
                  Well then...

                  You'll never be the man Yo mama was

                  Bring it on!

                  Just kidding, always good to see you in here.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Thom,

                    No need for apologies. This stuff will happen. I'm rather pleased at how much less often it happens than it once did.

                    I think everyone is making a real effort.

                    Mike,
                    Of course, that's just me. Feel free to tell me why I'm just wrong...lol.
                    I'd love to, Mike. You know how much I enjoy pointing out your mistakes. But, I have this odd policy of not arguing with people when I know they're right.

                    Does wonders for my batting average.


                    Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                  They used to be enjoyable. They can still be animated, but I have found that these "controversial" topics have become way too predictable and as a result - boring. On various topics I already know what most of the regular contributors think, where they stand politically, and how they will respond. I know who will pick the fights, I know who will never bend from an opinion (or from their party line), I know where most stand on the environment and global warming, government and politics and even music.
                  Ha! Very interesting, Mike...

                  So what am I? :p

                  Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                  Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                  They used to be enjoyable. They can still be animated, but I have found that these "controversial" topics have become way too predictable and as a result - boring. On various topics I already know what most of the regular contributors think, where they stand politically, and how they will respond. I know who will pick the fights, I know who will never bend from an opinion (or from their party line), I know where most stand on the environment and global warming, government and politics and even music.

                  I try my best to stay out of them now - unless I am REALLY bored myself Otherwise, I see no point. It's like a merry-go-round now.

                  Of course, that's just me. Feel free to tell me why I'm just wrong...lol.
                  I have a position on a few things that would shock you to your socks. Unfortunately - you're just going to have to stay bored, because if I were to really start talking the forum would burst into flames, then Paul would have to kick me out permanently to avoid further damage.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                    Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                    I have a position on a few things that would shock you to your socks. Unfortunately - you're just going to have to stay bored, because if I were to really start talking the forum would burst into flames, then Paul would have to kick me out permanently to avoid further damage.

                    Maybe, but I doubt it. Not much of what you say would shock me at all between what I read here and on Facebook

                    Seriously, I wasn't implying that I knew everything about everybody so I am sure what you say is true. Just on certain topics in this forum, many of the contributors are predictable - including you. Off the forum, I am sure EVERYONE would shock me to some degree...just as I would shock probably everyone here.
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                    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                      Maybe, but I doubt it. Not much of what you say would shock me at all between what I read here and on Facebook

                      Seriously, I wasn't implying that I knew everything about everybody so I am sure what you say is true. Just on certain topics in this forum, many of the contributors are predictable - including you. Off the forum, I am sure EVERYONE would shock me to some degree...just as I would shock probably everyone here.
                      Oh yeah. We're friends on FB...........but I don't think I've really let go there with what I really think about a few things either. Serious. What you see is just the part of me that is sick of being told what to do by people not smart or judicious enough to know what is best for me or a lot of others. Unfortunately - I'll never be a global leader, so the rest of my philosophy is just all a moot point that would serve no purpose for anyone else to know unless they were looking for reasons to despise me. LOL.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                        Oh yeah. We're friends on FB...........but I don't think I've really let go there with what I really think about a few things either. Serious. What you see is just the part of me that is sick of being told what to do by people not smart or judicious enough to know what is best for me or a lot of others. Unfortunately - I'll never be a global leader, so the rest of my philosophy is just all a moot point that would serve no purpose for anyone else to know unless they were looking for reasons to despise me. LOL.
                        I am sure you have not really "let go" either but more so on FB than here (for obvious reasons)

                        You (or I) may never be a global leader, but that doesn't make what we think unimportant or irrelevant. I'd like to believe that the things we say or ideas we share help bring awareness to issues, or motivate someone, etc. So don't stop posting (like you would...LOL).
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              David - you are not invisible....

              Other forums - like Main section - For hire section - etc. In othe words, other sections on this forum is what I think Steve was referring to. You have to learn to read "Stevalese"
              SORRY if I used the wrong term. GEE...

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                SORRY if I used the wrong term. GEE...

                Steve
                Steve - Two posts disappeared that would have explained everything, they must have been deleted. They were jokes.

                The first post quoted you saying you had to resort to posting in other forums. I was asking what other forums, and why don't I know about them, meaning I only post in the off topic forum too.

                The second post was about the ignore button, and there must be a glitch in the system and everyone by default was set to ignore my posts, because I wasn't getting any answers on what other forums existed in the warrior forum other than the off topic forum.

                They were funny at the time - but all the proof has been blinked out of existence.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

                  Steve - Two posts disappeared that would have explained everything, they must have been deleted. They were jokes.

                  The first post quoted you saying you had to resort to posting in other forums. I was asking what other forums, and why don't I know about them, meaning I only post in the off topic forum too.

                  The second post was about the ignore button, and there must be a glitch in the system and everyone by default was set to ignore my posts, because I wasn't getting any answers on what other forums existed in the warrior forum other than the off topic forum.

                  They were funny at the time - but all the proof has been blinked out of existence.
                  I saw them! The first one was vague, and I couldn't tell if you were serious or not. if I should have called it a section, I apologize. The second was about ANOTHER person.

                  Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      WOW TL! You even called Paul a liar and brought him into this. He said he wasn't on EITHER side, and just didn't like the arguments, etc...., ESPECIALLY since it is a lot to go through for nothing. The sticky doesn't mention a president or anything else, and paul gets angry even when it has NOTHING to do with a president or party. And then ***I*** get lumped in with YOU two guys, Funny, I have been here FAR longer than you and I don't think I have *****EVER***** been accused of ANY advertising and certainly not THIS.

      As further evidence, the complaints follow YOU, and NOT me! You are like the times I was told to be quiet, in class, for when I asked another to SHUTUP! When you weren't here, the complaints stopped.

      You have said a lot of things here I would love to take you to task on, BUT....

      I believe I had ONE sig, and that was to support KIM! GEE, to get my forum fix, because THIS place was so quiet, without you here, I even started posting on two other forums here!

      Steve
      I'm sure I didn't call Paul a liar.

      I do remember Paul asking folks in here to tone down the anti-admin rhetoric, saying something like the forum didn't allow it for Clinton or Bush and won't allow it now.

      I believe it was within the last 6 weeks-two months.


      TL
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      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I wonder if the creator of the thanks button knew it would be used as a weapon in political discussions. Let's write him and ask if he could put in a "thank-you very much" button
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      ....or a "kudos" button?
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    According to David Wilcock, this scandal is the first sign of a series of events that will lead to much bigger things, including disclosure. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen. However, it's certainly beyond silly left vs right political debates. Obviously, whichever party is supposedly in power the same agenda gets pushed forward. But maybe for not much longer.

    The Nightmare is Almost Over: Part I
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    Content Writing, Ghostwriting, eBooks, editing, research.
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  • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
    Banned
    I sure hope they do not survive. However, they will. With the MSM fully in the governments hands, this will be forgotten in a matter of months.

    Just like:

    Benghazi
    Fast and furious gun running
    IRS scandal
    etc
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