Canada's Top Medical Marijuana Doctor Arrested

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How Rob Kamermans made $500K as Canada's top medical marijuana doctor

Dr. Kamermans is one of OUR local doctors.

  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    wow. it really sounds like he is being railroaded and on the train where he is not supposed to make money for his services.

    ... then again i have been fooled before. so whatever. i hope there is justice.
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      wow. it really sounds like he is being railroaded and on the train where he is not supposed to make money for his services.

      ... then again i have been fooled before. so whatever. i hope there is justice.
      Patrician, I've been treated by Dr. Kamermans in the emergency dept. He is an excellent doctor with great bedside manners, better than most.

      This isn't the first time he has been railroaded, and it certainly won't be the last. Dr. Kamermans views on medical marijuana don't bode well with our local community, doctors included.

      Heck, when I moved to this area in '83, the local radio station played gospel music 24/7. This has since, changed.

      The 'founding fathers' of our local community do their damndest to prevent new businesses from relocating here. It's only been the past ten years or so that we have seen some actual growth in the business community. Our economy needs the growth as we rely heavily on tourists.

      BTW, I have to pay $25 for my doctor to fax, if it's long distance. I don't believe the $100 fee is exorbitant at all. He is a doctor and his time is money.

      I wish Dr. Kamermans the best, as do many. This will be an interesting case to follow.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        He may be a great doctor - but if he's telling patients "don't tell people you got this from me" chances are he knows he's letting his personal view override legality.

        Doctors who are an "easy touch" for controlled substances and restricted meds quickly become well known in their community.

        It's a shame because he would serve his patients better to use restraint in signing the forms so he could stay in business to treat those patients.

        I have co-workers who carry a smorgasbord of high level pain meds and drugs with them - all legally prescribed - and all seem to visit the same doctor. Word gets around fast.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Wow isn't that the truth. I remember back home when I was in high school we had a doc that people went to to get meds. Every time I went near him he tried to give me a scrp for valuum. Not sure what happened to him, but he was the "favorite" of the legal druggers. Half of my high school was tanked out on valuum by the time I graduated.
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    Originally Posted by waterotter View Post


    I see nothing but a Doctor abusing his position to profit as a drug dealer and placing his personal beliefs over his professional oaths.

    You cannot break your oathes and laws no matter how well mannered you are and how many people want you too.
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

      I see nothing but a Doctor abusing his position to profit as a drug dealer and placing his personal beliefs over his professional oaths.

      You cannot break your oathes and laws no matter how well mannered you are and how many people want you too.
      Now that you have edited your post....

      I will apply dietetic measure for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect.
      Source: CFN One on One With Medical Marijuana Dr. Rob Kamermans in Coe Hill Ontario VIDEO POLL | The Cornwall Free News
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      • Profile picture of the author candoit2
        Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

        Now that you have edited your post....
        Ok so now we are going to go back and forth on what you claim was edited or what your point even is? You quote a post I did not go back and edit. I do see a lot of imagination used in your perception of what I write though. I guess you just want to say I go back and edit it instead of admitting your error in interpretation.

        The post you quoted was never edited, nor have I edited a post after it has been commented on or quoted.

        Simply put, people got denied by the doctor who knows them and their situation. The local doctor/ family doctor says no.

        Some Doctor who doesn't know them but listens to their story decided he is going to travel to see them in hotel rooms.

        He cannot really know them or their condition as they have not visited him before and in some cases are out of province even.. If they had, then why did he not fill out the forms then?

        Also, the tax payer is paying for his travel expenses. he should not be traveling to sign forms because the family doctor won't do it(who actually knows the patient) and then billing the tax payer for it.

        If you claim the tax payer was not billed, then he is selling his sig to people who were denied by the local doctor. Still bad.

        So go ahead and claim I edit my post after the fact to make you look wrong instead of conceding any points I make.

        You obviously want doctors to travel around to various cities and provinces handing marijuana prescriptions out to people who's local family doctor tells them they are not qualified.

        It's ok to you if the tax payer get's the bill for the sig and the travel claims.

        Just as long as a world exists where you can find a doctor who will let you legally obtain free pot and you can get it if you just keep asking around, and one will even come to you even if you are out of province.

        How dare I oppose such Doctor!
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Also, the tax payer is paying for his travel expenses. he should not be traveling to sign forms because the family doctor won't do it(who actually knows the patient) and then billing the tax payer for it.

          If you claim the tax payer was not billed, then he is selling his sig to people who were denied by the local doctor. Still bad.
          No he charged more when he traveled to cover his traveling expenses.
          Just because a local doctor turns down a request for med. cannabis, doesn't mean they are right.
          Most will just prescribe oxicotin or other addictive prescription drug.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    He is not selling drugs - he is writing (like) a prescription. I hate how the truth can be twisted just by the way someone paraphrases.

    The alternative medicine doctors here charge for a 'permit' - it was $100 the first time and $60 to renew each year - (we get a lamenated ID card with picture), and that includes the consultattion to discuss your medical issues - so why should they have to spend time and materials without being paid for it?

    This year the doctor I had told me he works for the state as an examiner.

    I don't see where telling people not to tell others is necessarily suspect - although I can see why you would say that, Kay. It may be that he just really could not handle the traffic he was getting in his small community practice, not to mention his worst nightmare coming true, that he is being jacketed with the 'croaker' label (the doctors who seem to do nothing else but write prescriptions for profit).

    It is surprising this is happening in Canada. We always thought of them as the 'wild frontier' - that is where the guys ran to when there was a draft for the military - and we always looked at it as liberal (in a good way).
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      He is not selling drugs - he is writing (like) a prescription. I hate how the truth can be twisted just by the way someone paraphrases.
      Where did I use the words "selling drugs"? .

      Talk about someone twisting truth about how someone paraphrases.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

        Where did I use the words "selling drugs"? .

        Talk about someone twisting truth about how someone paraphrases.
        Here you go, duh.

        Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

        I see nothing but a Doctor abusing his position to profit as a drug dealer and placing his personal beliefs over his professional oaths.
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        • Profile picture of the author candoit2
          Originally Posted by Patrician;8649018 Quote:
          [q

          Originally Posted by AaronJones
          Where did I use the words "selling drugs"? .

          Talk about someone twisting truth about how someone paraphrases.
          [/q]

          Here you go, duh.

          Quote:
          [q]Originally Posted by AaronJones
          I see nothing but a Doctor abusing his position to profit as a drug dealer and placing his personal beliefs over his professional oaths.[/q]


          That is not the same as saying he is profiting from "selling drugs".

          He is profiting from the selling of his sig to grant people drugs. In the end he is "profiting as a drug dealer" just as I said.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      He may be a great doctor - but if he's telling patients "don't tell people you got this from me" chances are he knows he's letting his personal view override legality.
      Exactly.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Doctors who are an "easy touch" for controlled substances and restricted meds quickly become well known in their community.
      Exactly so - over here, as well.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      It's a shame because he would serve his patients better to use restraint in signing the forms so he could stay in business to treat those patients.
      Indeed - exactly.

      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      why should they have to spend time and materials without being paid for it?
      Well, typically there's a very fine line between "charging for a prescription" (illegal in many countries) and "charging for a consultation at which a prescription was written" (legal), and many jurisdictions have their own fact-based, precedent/case-law on which behavior constitutes which activity.

      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I don't see where telling people not to tell others is necessarily suspect
      Clearly it isn't, in itself, proof of wrongdoing, but it certainly makes me suspicious. I think it would be a little naive to say otherwise?
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    He may be a great doctor - but if he's telling patients "don't tell people you got this from me" chances are he knows he's letting his personal view override legality.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Not the most tactful approach. I do agree with his stance on giving patients alternative treatments:

    Dr. Kamermans has a passion for alternative therapies and he says he has always supported his patients when they wanted more choice. He encouraged patients to seek out chiropractic care, acupuncture and homeopathy.
    Source: Doctor forced to sell property | Bancroft This Week

    I see nothing but a Doctor abusing his position to profit as a drug dealer.
    I couldn't disagree more, he is NOT selling drugs, rather, providing patients with an alternative to narcotics. It was up to Health Canada to approve the requests.
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Not the most tactful approach. I do agree with his stance on giving patients alternative treatments:



      Source: Doctor forced to sell property | Bancroft This Week



      I couldn't disagree more, he is NOT selling drugs, rather, providing patients with an alternative to narcotics. It was up to Health Canada to approve the requests.
      Obviously the Gov't feels he was abusing the system to get those requests even if they were initially approved.
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      • Profile picture of the author waterotter
        Originally Posted by AaronJones View Post

        Obviously the Gov't feels he was abusing the system to get those requests even if they were initially approved.
        After the police raid, Dr. Kamermans made a decision to stop signing B1 forms. He now refers his patients to other doctors who are willing to take the risk of signing. And it is a risk.
        Source: Doctor forced to sell property | Bancroft This Week
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I hear you Lexy - but then you have definitely got a bias - and as would most of us you tend to buy into anything that leans toward that bias or confirms circumstantially that what you "suspect" is true.

    ... just sayin'

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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    There is NO charging for a prescription here. The doctor is simply charging for the forms to be filled out, which is legal. All our doctors charge for this or any form to be filled out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      There is NO charging for a prescription here.
      It's the same here.

      Doctors can be prosecuted for charging for a prescription here - and some are. There's plenty of case-law on it. They're invariably doctors who prescribe "controlled medications". The defense is always that they didn't charge for the prescription, but for the consultation at which the prescription was written. Sometimes that doesn't help them - it depends on the facts of the individual case. The "Medical Defense Union" and/or "Medical Protection Society" (the two main insurers) defend these cases vigorously, but not always successfully. Doctors who are convicted in a court invariably also have the matter referred to the Professional Conduct Committee of the General Medical Council and usually get at least a suspension of their licence to practice, as well.

      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      The doctor is simply charging for the forms to be filled out, which is legal. All our doctors charge for this or any form to be filled out.
      Here also.

      But the court doesn't always agree that that's what they were charging for.

      My understanding is that whether they get into trouble for it depends on who they are, whether they specialise in conditions for which such prescriptions are routine, how much they charge, who their patients are, how often and under what circumstances they've done it, what their colleagues and others think of them, and a whole range of other factors which don't normally get into the newspapers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think the problem he has lies in the numbers - if the numbers given are correct.

      The article states 28,000 Canadians are approved for medical marijuana - and charges against him say he signed 4000 approval forms in 3 years.

      That's a lot for one doctor. It means he had 5 patients per day for 3 years who required medical marijuana. I can see where authorities might find those numbers a bit "off"....or perhaps the numbers being quoted are incorrect.

      It sounds more like a doctor unwilling to say "no" than someone out to corrupt the system.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        That's a lot for one doctor. It means he had 5 patients per day for 3 years who required medical marijuana.
        That's exactly the kind of circumstance/finding which, over here, sometimes makes the authorities "suspicious", though like so much else mentioned in this thread, it isn't, in itself, proof of any wrongdoing. (For example, if a doctor specialises exclusively in something for which that's a standard prescription, the suspicion - entirely reasonable though it is, and naive though it would be not to have it - wouldn't necessarily be proof. It still clearly raises legitimate questions, though.)
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      • Profile picture of the author candoit2
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think the problem he has lies in the numbers - if the numbers given are correct.

        The article states 28,000 Canadians are approved for medical marijuana - and charges against him say he signed 4000 approval forms in 3 years.

        That's a lot for one doctor. It means he had 5 patients per day for 3 years who required medical marijuana. I can see where authorities might find those numbers a bit "off"....or perhaps the numbers being quoted are incorrect.

        It sounds more like a doctor unwilling to say "no" than someone out to corrupt the system.
        Taking the time to travel and meet people in hotel rooms seems a little more than a doctor who couldn't say no his regular patients who came to his clinic.

        Despite telling patients not to spread the word, demand for his signature grew so great that he would find as many as 30 patients at a time lined up at his homey practice in the Ontario hamlet of Coe Hill, a community of a few hundred people, 90 minutes northeast of Peterborough, Ont. He eventually ran pot clinics from hotel rooms in Montreal, Halifax and Miramichi, N.B.
        endorsed patients ineligible for the controversial treatment — while charging them a tidy $100 to $250 each for the service
        The tax payer paying for this because this Doctor took ti upon himself to charge when he traveled, despite that there were local doctors who had denied those people.

        What good is having laws etc when your local Doctor follows them says no to people who do not fit the criteria, and they just get another doctor to travel to the community and he'll bill the tax payer for his expenses?

        I am glad they are trying to do something to put a stop to that. Go to your local doctor and if you qualify you will get a sig that you need. What he did is abuse of the system and the tax payer.
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      There is NO charging for a prescription here. The doctor is simply charging for the forms to be filled out, which is legal. All our doctors charge for this or any form to be filled out.
      You can point out any loophole or technicality the Doctor thought he could get away with profiting from this.

      He is meeting people in hotel rooms even for crying out loud.

      I am not surprised a Doctor who is willing to meet people in hotel rooms and place his sig on a form so people can get free/cheap pot is going to have a lot of supporters and be viewed as a nice guy/victim.

      Also, just because health canada approved the prescriptions doen't mean everything is on the up and up and no laws are being attempted to be manipulated. Does health canada review every percription before it can be fulfilled?

      Can you cheat on your taxes or lie and get a huge rebate back at tax time?

      Sure, but if you raise flags it will get reviewed and there will be an investigation.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      I wonder if the DEA is behind this like they where with Rick Simpson.
      Vary interesting article. As far as being suspicious of him telling people not to say anything, if you read the whole paragraph and article it's pretty obvious why he said that. Here's a hint, it has more to do with being overwhelmed with patients then hiding an "illegal" activity.
      In many ways Canada and the U.S. have similar heath care systems. Both are controlled by the same interests. Anything or anyone who goes against those interests will be silenced.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Quote:
    I will apply dietetic measure for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect.

    Nice but then if that were true he wouldn't be able to prescribe most drugs - no wonder he doesn't mind 'prescribing' marijuana

    http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...ose/facts.html

    Most Common Drugs involved in Overdoses
    In 2010, of the 38,329 drug overdose deaths in the United States, 22,134 (60%) were related to pharmaceuticals.6
    Of the 22,134 deaths relating to prescription drug overdose in 2010, 16,652 (75%) involved opioid analgesics (also called opioid pain relievers or prescription painkillers), and 6,497 (30%) involved benzodiazepines.6
    In 2011, about 1.4 million ED visits involved the nonmedical use of pharmaceuticals. Among those ED visits, 501,207 visits were related to anti-anxiety and insomnia medications, and 420,040 visits were related to opioid analgesics.2
    Benzodiazepines are frequently found among people treated in EDs for misusing or abusing drugs.2 People who died of drug overdoses often had a combination of benzodiazepines and opioid analgesics in their bodies.6

    Costs
    In the United States, prescription opioid abuse costs were about $55.7 billion in 2007.7 Of this amount, 46% was attributable to workplace costs (e.g., lost productivity), 45% to healthcare costs (e.g., abuse treatment), and 9% to criminal justice costs.7
    Between 1998-2002, people who abused opioid analgesics cost insurers $14,054 more than the average patient.8

    Statistics of Prescription Drug Abuse, Overdosing, Emergency Room Visits: Foundation for a Drug Free World

    CAUSE OF DEATHS

    Prescription
    Drugs Street Drugs
    Combined: 39%
    45% (Amphetamine
    + Heroin
    + Methamphetamine
    + Cocaine)

    Depressants, opioids and antidepressants are responsible for more overdose deaths (45%) than cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and amphetamines (39%) combined. In the United States, the most deaths used to take place in inner cities in African-American neighborhoods, but they have now been overtaken by white rural communities. The same trend can be seen in the rates of hospitalization for substance abuse and emergency hospitalization for overdoses. Of the 1.4 million drug-related emergency room admissions in 2005, 598,542 were associated with abuse of pharmaceuticals alone or with other drugs.

    By survey, almost 50% of teens believe that prescription drugs are much safer than illegal street drugs—60% to 70% say that home medicine cabinets are their source of drugs.

    NO DEATHS EVER REPORTED FOR MARIJUANA.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I'd sure have a lot more problem with this if the guy was writing scrpts for pharmaceutical drugs that can kill when abused than I have with seeing it's just pot prescriptions. Doctors shouldn't have to write prescriptions for pot. It shouldn't be illegal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This story concerns Canadian law - not whether people think pot should or should not be available on demand.

      Even those advocating for medical marijuana might be hard pressed to explain how one single doctor could prescribe that as "treatment" over two dozen times a week year after year.

      In the end, the govt will prove its case or it won't.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        This story concerns Canadian law - not whether people think pot should or should not be available on demand.

        Even those advocating for medical marijuana might be hard pressed to explain how one single doctor could prescribe that as "treatment" over two dozen times a week year after year.

        In the end, the govt will prove its case or it won't.
        Not hard pressed at all. Many doctors even where medical cannabis is legal, still believe only "conventional" medicine work as that is what they are trained in.
        People who prefer "alternative" medicines, when given a choice will seek out doctors who share their choices.
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    I will try and respond tomorrow. I'm dealing with an emergency at the moment.
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