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A Warmer Type of Ice?

by LarryC
44 replies
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As we all know, and as all credible scientists assure us, the climate is warming. Sometimes, however, we are confronted with physical facts that would appear to contradict the global warming hypothesis --such as Antarctic sea ice hitting a record high.

I especially like this comment from the article:

“The overwhelming evidence is that the Southern Ocean is warming,” said Jinlun Zhang, a University of Washington scientist, studying Antarctic ice. “Why would sea ice be increasing? Although the rate of increase is small, it is a puzzle to scientists.”

The overwhelming evidence, except for more ice? Could it be that this is a different, warmer type of ice that would be consistent with a warming climate? What else could it be? :confused:


Antarctic sea ice hit 35-year record high Saturday
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

    As we all know, and as all credible scientists assure us, the climate is warming.
    Pure media based propaganda. Most climatologists say nothing of the sort. Only those with funding in the lurch are yacking about warming. The Kayoto doctrine only had 2,900 signers and very few of them were actually scientists of ANY nature. On the otherhand - 30,000 scientists have signed a petition to tell politicians to keep their damned fingers out of science.

    Unfortunately - not enough people know a rat's ass about science and they watch TV media ALL the time so they actually believe anything they are told. I'm wondering how far into the coming ice age we'll have to get before the media droolers can figure out they've been had.

    Sorry for the tantrum, but I've about had my fill of crap edited to pull taxes being slung in our faces and called "science". Right now the media should be covering the revolt of scientists against political meddling in real facts for their own purposes. It would open a lot of eyes very quickly.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Warm ice!

      Sounds like a desperate attempt to cling onto the money train, that is heading towards a cliff! :rolleyes:

      At least it will be entertaining to watch people who have tried like their life's were on the line, that MMGW is real!

      And the crackpot scientists and greenies, etc!


      Warm ice,....political BS at it's finest!


      It is reassuring to know when New York,ers start seeing icebergs that it is warm ice!

      Probably a good 10 years after the mini ice age is over, we will get the truth!


      Well as Sal has said the Fluoridated, microwaved, zombie masses start to think for themselves! :rolleyes:


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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        To quote Dan Riffle - This won't end well. :rolleyes:

        Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

        As we all know, and as all credible scientists assure us, the climate is warming.
        Reading threads here on the subject, "all" in both cases above, is definitely the wrong word. Otherwise these endless debates wouldn't continue.

        I know it may seem tough to figure out but if the ice is getting bigger and ALL the scientists are baffled, I think "warm" ice is going to be the most baffling thing that's ever happened in the history of Earth.

        Ice becomes ice at a specific temperature, I'll be more than happy to stand corrected if that can be proved otherwise.

        Or was this just to stir up the hornets nest? It's got to be the easiest subject to get it started.
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        • Profile picture of the author LarryC
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          To quote Dan Riffle - This won't end well. :rolleyes:



          Reading threads here on the subject, "all" in both cases above, is definitely the wrong word. Otherwise these endless debates wouldn't continue.

          I know it may seem tough to figure out but if the ice is getting bigger and ALL the scientists are baffled, I think "warm" ice is going to be the most baffling thing that's ever happened in the history of Earth.

          Ice becomes ice at a specific temperature, I'll be more than happy to stand corrected if that can be proved otherwise.

          Or was this just to stir up the hornets nest? It's got to be the easiest subject to get it started.
          The "all" was meant sarcastically, as was the term "warm ice," which is not a real phenomenon as far as I know.
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

            The "all" was meant sarcastically, as was the term "warm ice," which is not a real phenomenon as far as I know.
            Phew. I wrote it all then thought "Hang on a second", he's got to be having a laugh. Hence the added hornets nest bit.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

            The "all" was meant sarcastically, as was the term "warm ice," which is not a real phenomenon as far as I know.
            When I first read the thread title I thought my father would rise from his grave
            He was a Chief Refrigeration Engineer for 47 years running two local ice plants.
            If you said anything about ice around him you would get a lesson in ice making.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          To quote Dan Riffle - This won't end well. :rolleyes:
          One thing is a fact.

          I was right.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    The debate is over.

    Millions of starfish are dying on the west coast.

    Millions of starfish turning up dead off West Coast


    The bald eagles are dying on the west coast.

    'High Alert': Mystery illness killing bald eagles in Western U.S. -- Wings paralyzed, full blown seizures -- Experts: "Very big concern"... "Never seen anything like this"... "We just don

    The salmon is dying on the west coast.

    Newspaper: Unprecedented declines in Alaska king salmon... related to impact from Fukushima? No comment, says NOAA biologist -- Record low numbers seen in major fishery on Canada's west coast, "alarming decrease"

    The sardines are dying.

    Sudden disappearance of sardines has serious economic and ecological effects on the B.C. coast

    And what is the cause of all this, I ask you?
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I'm just messin' with ya guys.

    I can't drum up enough bad logic to even play devil's advocate here.

    The dying animals and marine life is disturbing, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      I'm just messin' with ya guys.
      David, don't make me have to call you Professor Messer! :p


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    You might have been messing with us, but that Global Warming idiot that said it actually expected people to buy it. LMAO. Just incredible what people will say to support something stupid.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      You might have been messing with us, but that Global Warming idiot that said it actually expected people to buy it. LMAO. Just incredible what people will say to support something stupid.
      Actually "stupid" is not accepting facts.

      The fact is, the global warming models project EXTREME weather conditions, and this cold fits PERFECTLY with their predictions.

      We can argue about global warming, but we can't argue about what the models forecast, unless one has an IQ below that of plant life, as they are fact and not left to speculation or conjecture. The models may be wrong, but they can't be denied as to what they predict. And they predict this extreme cold weather.

      And this is why scientists had to rename global warming to "climate change" because many people simply can't understand how sometimes, in some areas, it may actually be cold, very cold, while global warming is actually taking place.

      So if you are someone that can't seem to accept global warming means that it can at times be colder than normal in some places, pat yourself on the back, as you are the reason for the new name "climate change".

      Since we don't want to use bad logic, let's use good logic:

      Global warming is an AVERAGE. You need to account for temperatures over a period of time. These low temps will be calculated into the averages. Smart people will take the averages and not cherry pick either high or low temps to make a point to fit their own political agendas. Smart people don't look out their kitchen window at their thermometer and see cold temperatures for a few days and then claim global warming can't be right because of it.

      Global warming is GLOBAL. To take temperatures in a very small area of the planet and apply them to the entire globe isn't sound reasoning. How warm is it Mongolia or Argentina?

      Global warming doesn't mean everywhere, at every time will always be warmer. And it doesn't mean every place on Earth will be warmer. As a matter of fact, many global warming models predict Las Vegas will actually get a little cooler and wetter, due to the impact global warming will have on weather patterns.

      Global warming is about EXTREMES. Record heat, rain, wind, cold, snow, etc. are all part of the model, with the overall average of the planet getting warming.

      You can deny global warming, but don't deny what want the models and scientists predict. And the fact is, what they predicted will happen, is what is happening with the extreme cold in some areas, extreme heat in others, extreme rain in Colorado, extreme typhoons in the Philippines, etc.

      BTW, count me in with the other stupid people like Steven Hawking, Degrasse Tyson and Michio Kaku who believe global warming is not only real, but also the biggest threat to humanity. What a bunch of illogical dumbasses that surely are being paid off by the gov. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


        We can argue about global warming, but we can't argue about what the models forecast, unless one has an IQ below that of plant life, as they are fact and not left to speculation or conjecture. The models may be wrong, but they can't be denied as to what they predict. And they predict this extreme cold weather.
        This makes no sense. We can't argue about what the models predict even though they may be wrong?

        I may have an IQ lower than plant life, but I'm pretty sure, by its very definition, a prediction is not a fact. There is nothing about a forecast that is fact. It's an opinion based on a formula. Formulas can be flawed.

        As for the rest:
        Sixteen Concerned Scientists: No Need to Panic About Global Warming - WSJ.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

          This makes no sense. We can't argue about what the models predict even though they may be wrong?

          I may have an IQ lower than plant life, but I'm pretty sure, by its very definition, a prediction is not a fact. There is nothing about a forecast that is fact. It's an opinion based on a formula. Formulas can be flawed.

          As for the rest:
          Sixteen Concerned Scientists: No Need to Panic About Global Warming - WSJ.com
          It does make sense.

          Let's say I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl.

          You can disagree and say my prediction is wrong. And in time, you may be able to factually say I was wrong. However, you can't deny I made the prediction, as it is a FACT that I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl. You can bring up the strengths of every other team, but that doesn't change the FACT that I predicted the Broncos.

          Where you got confused is thinking the prediction itself isn't a fact. The OUTCOME of the prediction may be debated, but not the predictions themselves. And the simple fact is extreme weather of all types is predicted by the global warming models, including record cold in some places at some time.

          Are you trying to deny that I am predicting the Broncos will win the Superbowl too?
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            It does make sense.

            Let's say I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl.

            You can disagree and say my prediction is wrong. And in time, you may be able to factually say I was wrong. However, you can't deny I made the prediction, as it is a FACT that I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl. You can bring up the strengths of every other team, but that doesn't change the FACT that I predicted the Broncos.

            Where you got confused is thinking the prediction itself isn't a fact. The OUTCOME of the prediction may be debated, but not the predictions themselves. And the simple fact is extreme weather of all types is predicted by the global warming models, including record cold in some places at some time.

            Are you trying to deny that I am predicting the Broncos will win the Superbowl too?
            Unlike the Broncos, the behavior of CO2 has been well known for over a hundred years, and its greenhouse properties actually correlates quite closely with Earth's predicted and observed energy imbalance from satellite temperature readings.

            Global warming is a FACT, however, climatologists don't fully understand where all of this energy is going. Indications show warming of the oceans to the limits of instrument measurements down to about 2,000 meters, but even this cannot account for the observed heat retention from satellite data. Heat sinks include not only polar regions, but perhaps even ocean depths beyond current technology to measure.

            Scientists cannot "predict" specific localized weather conditions, but current levels of dumping CO2 into our atmosphere from burning of fossil fuels is not only affecting climate change, but also looming ecological catastrophe and impacting quality of life. This is an accelerating source of pollution, which predictably is not sustainable.
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Unlike the Broncos, the behavior of CO2 has been well known for over a hundred years, and its greenhouse properties actually correlates quite closely with Earth's predicted and observed energy imbalance from satellite temperature readings.
              Actually the satellites do not measure actual temperature, they measure radiances in various wavelength bands. This must then be converted into temperature. Different groups have taken this very same same set of data and come up with differing results. It's a very unstable and unprovable science.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Unlike the Broncos, the behavior of CO2 has been well known for over a hundred years, and its greenhouse properties actually correlates quite closely with Earth's predicted and observed energy imbalance from satellite temperature readings.
                And it's been known for as long that trees will, can, and do clean the atmosphere of that CO2.
                But what happens? Corporations continue to cut down the rainforest, factories continue to spew CO2 in the the environment, and people continue to argue about it.
                There's nothing stopping anyone from planting a tree or adopting a tree in the rainforest. There's nothing stopping anyone from taking care of the trees we have. But it seems those arguing that climate change is happening would rather spend their time proving they are right then doing anything about the problem. Or their idea of doing something is creating a new tax.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Are you trying to deny that I am predicting the Broncos will win the Superbowl too?
            Actually, I think you're a tad confused, Kurt. That you made the prediction is fact. Your prediction, however, is opinion. Oddly, just like weather forecasting models.

            However, I think your Broncos prediction (opinion) may be more accurate than most weather forecasting models.
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          • Profile picture of the author LarryC
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            It does make sense.

            Let's say I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl.

            You can disagree and say my prediction is wrong. And in time, you may be able to factually say I was wrong. However, you can't deny I made the prediction, as it is a FACT that I predict the Broncos will win the Superbowl. You can bring up the strengths of every other team, but that doesn't change the FACT that I predicted the Broncos.

            Where you got confused is thinking the prediction itself isn't a fact. The OUTCOME of the prediction may be debated, but not the predictions themselves. And the simple fact is extreme weather of all types is predicted by the global warming models, including record cold in some places at some time.

            Are you trying to deny that I am predicting the Broncos will win the Superbowl too?
            So experts were able to predict "extreme weather?" That's pretty broad. On a similar note, here are my infallible economic predictions for 2014:

            Some stocks will rise dramatically
            Other stocks will crash
            It will be a year of extremes, with both winners and losers. Some, however, will remain stable.

            I am available as a financial consultant for selected clients who can afford my expertise

            On a more serious note, it seems to me that in recent years the climate change bandwagon has gradually shifted from "global warming" to "it's getting colder and warmer; that's what we really meant."

            I don't doubt that the climate is changing and that humans play some role in this. At the same time, I have little faith in anyone's predictions.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Global warming is global, but not everywhere. Got it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      Global warming is global, but not everywhere. Got it.
      LOL David!

      Thanks for the giggles.

      I so love humorous sarcasm.


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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      Global warming is global, but not everywhere. Got it.
      Sorry, but you don't "got it". I guess you just can't grasp the concept of "averages". At least you admit it, that's usually the start to finding a solution to your problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Anyone who doesn't realize that Al Gore's prediction just bit the dust this year with all the record ice we have at the poles, needs to get outside more often. LMAO.

    Dan - if it helps you out at all. ..........we've got some incredibly warm ice here today in Central OR - it's called RAIN. Which is a giggle only for a few more hours. It's getting dark. This town's going to be a skating rink in a few hours.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Anyone who doesn't realize that Al Gore's prediction just bit the dust this year with all the record ice we have at the poles, needs to get outside more often. LMAO.

      Dan - if it helps you out at all. ..........we've got some incredibly warm ice here today in Central OR - it's called RAIN. Which is a giggle only for a few more hours. It's getting dark. This town's going to be a skating rink in a few hours.
      Ummm, nice red herring and non-sequetor. Al Gore has NOTHING to do with these predictions. If that's all you got, keep laughing.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Warm ice is 83% warmer than frozen corn.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      This makes no sense. We can't argue about what the models predict even though they may be wrong?

      I may have an IQ lower than plant life, but I'm pretty sure, by its very definition, a prediction is not a fact. There is nothing about a forecast that is fact. It's an opinion based on a formula. Formulas can be flawed.

      As for the rest:
      Sixteen Concerned Scientists: No Need to Panic About Global Warming - WSJ.com

      True adverse weather conditions have been going for for as long as records have been kept!

      The only difference now is we can hear about it instantly!


      And a lot of scientists, and others have their hands out and want to keep the cash cow coughing up for as long as possible!

      In other words cut through all the BS and it is a natural process that will correct itself, (it probably already has) so eventhough the Politicians want us to worry about it, there is nothing to fear, except a*****s that want us to fear it!


      Stephen Hawking believes it? Well, Leanardo-da-vinci, was dead wrong about a few of his ideas, so it doesn't prove anything! :rolleyes:


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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        True adverse weather conditions have been going for for as long as records have been kept!

        The only difference now is we can hear about it constantly!
        Fixed it...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post


        Stephen Hawking believes it? Well, Leanardo-da-vinci, was dead wrong about a few of his ideas, so it doesn't prove anything! :rolleyes:


        Shane

        My point isn't whether or not Hawking was correct about global warming.

        My point was about Sal's ad homimen attack implying that people who accept global warming to be true are "stupid". In other words, she's calling Hawking, Tyson and Kaku "stupid". That's funny, that's what that is right there!!!!
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Extremes in weather such as the recent cold snaps in some regions of the Northern Hemisphere is largely due to a breakdown of the Polar Vortex (a ring of winds circling the Arctic) which is spilling over into North America and Europe. Warming of the oceans alters thermal wind patterns including polar climate destabilization, resulting in severe winter weather events.

          Global warming has not stopped, and atmospheric CO2 levels continue to rise at an unsustainable rate due to burning of fossil fuels. The Arctic region is currently experiencing profound effects of melting, which contributes to the continuing destabilization of the Polar Vortex which is increasing jet stream oscillations.

          As data collection, instrumentation, and climate modeling improves, coming attractions for 2014 indicate more weather extremes surpassing US (2011-2013) such as sweltering heat waves, storms, droughts, regional flooding, tornadoes, etc.
          Arctic Warming is Altering Weather Patterns, Study Shows - Climate Central

          Similarly, the apparent expansion of Antarctic sea ice posited by the OP as "a puzzle" actually is the result of continental melting of Antarctic ice sheets and increased precipitation due to rising water vapor from the oceans, which fits particularly well with climatologists' model of global warming.
          Why is Antarctic sea ice growing?
          I rest my case! :rolleyes:

          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          My point isn't whether or not Hawking was correct about global warming.

          My point was about Sal's ad homimen attack implying that people who accept global warming to be true are "stupid". In other words, she's calling Hawking, Tyson and Kaku "stupid". That's funny, that's what that is right there!!!!

          Ok, fair enough, eventhough l have read some of his books, l don't agree with some of his theory's!

          No human is right 100% of the time, especially if relying on dodgy data!


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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            I rest my case! :rolleyes:
            LOL! You have never had a case in scientific matters.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    What Catastrophe? | The Weekly Standard
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      Amazing! That article is from the future!
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        Amazing! That article is from the future!
        That will sometimes happen. Have you ever tried writing an article from the inside of a polar vortex? Things go bass akwards real fast.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Extremes in weather such as the recent cold snaps in some regions of the Northern Hemisphere is largely due to a breakdown of the Polar Vortex (a ring of winds circling the Arctic) which is spilling over into North America and Europe. Warming of the oceans alters thermal wind patterns including polar climate destabilization, resulting in severe winter weather events.

          Global warming has not stopped, and atmospheric CO2 levels continue to rise at an unsustainable rate due to burning of fossil fuels. The Arctic region is currently experiencing profound effects of melting, which contributes to the continuing destabilization of the Polar Vortex which is increasing jet stream oscillations.

          As data collection, instrumentation, and climate modeling improves, coming attractions for 2014 indicate more weather extremes surpassing US (2011-2013) such as sweltering heat waves, storms, droughts, regional flooding, tornadoes, etc.
          Arctic Warming is Altering Weather Patterns, Study Shows - Climate Central

          Similarly, the apparent expansion of Antarctic sea ice posited by the OP as "a puzzle" actually is the result of continental melting of Antarctic ice sheets and increased precipitation due to rising water vapor from the oceans, which fits particularly well with climatologists' model of global warming.
          Why is Antarctic sea ice growing?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    And concerning the OP, there is a logical explanation for "warmer ice".

    Here's a theory, and like all theories, it's based on facts.

    Fact: Fresh water freezes at a warmer temperature than salt water.

    Fact: The ice and snow that is on Antarctica is made of fresh water.

    Theory: Because it is warmer over-all, more ice and snow on Antarctica melts, flowing into the ocean, creating sea water that is less salty. And the less salinity the water is, the higher freezing temperature the water has.

    Because of this, it is possible that higher temperatures can cause more ice in places like Antarctica, since ice will form at higher temperatures in water that has less salt.

    And this is a theory being examined by scientists in Antarctica. While no one can claim warming to be the cause of more sea ice, no one on this thread has enough evidence to discount this theory, either.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        LOL! You have never had a case in scientific matters.
        Well its a case of Whiskey or Cool-Aid? :rolleyes:


        But l agree with the Global Warming is a fact! As for the majority of the population being fried in 90 years, regardless of whether we caused it or not, hmmm, lets just say a four letter word describes that pretty well!

        I could give the 1000 year global warming during the industrial revolution, (well during the middle ages, into the industrial revolution) example. That corrected itself!!!

        Or the mini-ice age, that occurred about 100 years after the industrial revolution got polluting our atmosphere, and not surprisingly it corrected itself. Eventhough the pollution should have frozen the planet and killed most of us off by now! :rolleyes:


        If you want to believe we will all be dead, (or pretty much) within our lifetimes, fair enough, they are your beliefs!

        But please don't write a page or two of ultra complicated science to prove you are right!


        As some of us here, would rather go with statistical analysis of past global warming and cooling events!


        Have a nice day!


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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          Well its a case of Whiskey or Cool-Aid? :rolleyes:


          But l agree with the Global Warming is a fact! As for the majority of the population being fried in 90 years, regardless of whether we caused it or not, hmmm, lets just say a four letter word describes that pretty well!

          I could give the 1000 year global warming during the industrial revolution, (well during the middle ages, into the industrial revolution) example. That corrected itself!!!

          Or the mini-ice age, that occurred about 100 years after the industrial revolution got polluting our atmosphere, and not surprisingly it corrected itself. Eventhough the pollution should have frozen the planet and killed most of us off by now! :rolleyes:


          If you want to believe we will all be dead, (or pretty much) within our lifetimes, fair enough, they are your beliefs!

          But please don't write a page or two of ultra complicated science to prove you are right!


          As some of us here, would rather go with statistical analysis of past global warming and cooling events!


          Have a nice day!


          Shane
          Not written - copied. Media is NOT science and does not represent the majority view of scientists. It was warming. Was. It stopped. It has reversed and there are a hella lot of reasons for that. Every time the warming "predictions" don't pan out, the media makes excuses. Now it's that cold is part of warming. Um........drool.
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          Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


      And this is a theory being examined by scientists in Antarctica. While no one can claim warming to be the cause of more sea ice, no one on this thread has enough evidence to discount this theory, either.
      A theory without enough evidence is not a theory, it's a hypothesis. And thus lies the problem with most of today's global warming science. People are taking hypotheses and turning them into theory. And to go even further - for political purpose some hypotheses are even being turned into fact. - Lest we all forget that the polar icecaps would and should be gone by now.

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  • Profile picture of the author Brady Partridge
    History tells us that the earth warms and cools of its own accord. If there's global warming, it's earth made, not man made.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Brady Partridge View Post

      History tells us that the earth warms and cools of its own accord. If there's global warming, it's earth made, not man made.

      Actually, um........there's a general consensus amongst scientists that the sun seems to have a little to do with it, too. Think it's been warm over the last decade - wait til it starts to super-nova.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Ricardo Furtado
    It is hard to determine truth from tales today. Who knows what is being cooked up where???
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    Ricardo Furtado

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