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Another suing!

by seasoned
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OK, what do you think of THIS?

Chloe Jonnson: Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for not allowing her to compete - National Sports | Examiner.com

Isn't the idea to compete in a group and basically show what they can achieve naturally?
They aren't even supposed to allow MEN to compete under some circumstances. Some things are now FELONIES because of it!

I guess the NEXT will be a woman with "SRS" that is competing against the lower levels in the mens class and claiming steroids are simply a drug that person needs and should not be considered steroids. Wouldn't THAT be something. A man and woman taking testosterone, and the man with a 350 rating(in normal range) gets kicked out and disgraced while a woman with a 1200 rating(high even for a MAN, and CERTAINLY for a woman) stays in because it is a drug they "need"!

BESIDES, they NEED to limit the field, and ideally probably want people that rank well in their class and can be good for endorsements. So they likely kick out many.

Steve
  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Another lawsuit that should never made it past the filing stage,though I could probably name a half a dozen people without even trying here that are going to disagree with me.

    I'm not going to comment more yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    This is a good one.

    Should she be denied to compete with women because she used to be a man but is now legally a woman?

    I'd like to see what the doctors say.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      But in the letter, CF gets aggressive -- saying,

      "Our decision has nothing to do with 'ignorance' or being bigots -- it has to do with a very real understanding of the human genome, of fundamental biology, that you are either intentionally ignoring or missed in high school."
      "gets aggressive?" ...or is responding to charges made?

      I'm a bit weary of these folks who want everything done their way - and scream about discrimination or unfairness if someone tells them "no". I expect he/she knew the Crossfit rules before signing up.

      I think the other women competing deserve a level playing field - and that her rights are not more important than theirs.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Doctors shouldn't be needed.
    Here is another example where people think making something a law changes reality.
    You can paint white stripes on a black horse but that doesn't make it a Zebra

    Kay,
    I agree 100%.
    The fact is that a man's body and a woman's body are physically different. Just because someone born a male changes part of the body that doesn't make it a female body physically. I don't know enough to say it would give an unfair advantage, but it should be a non issue. By the way, are they from Jersey too?
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Doctors shouldn't be needed.
      Here is another example where people think making something a law changes reality.
      You can paint white stripes on a black horse but that doesn't make it a Zebra

      Kay,
      I agree 100%.
      The fact is that a man's body and a woman's body are physically different. Just because someone born a male changes part of the body that doesn't make it a female body physically. I don't know enough to say it would give an unfair advantage, but it should be a non issue. By the way, are they from Jersey too?

      You're entitled.

      I also wonder if CrossFit had a prohibition of this kind of stuff in its rules & regulations before this situation arose.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        You're entitled.

        I also wonder if CrossFit had a prohibition of this kind of stuff in its rules & regulations before this situation arose.

        huh? :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        You're entitled.

        I also wonder if CrossFit had a prohibition of this kind of stuff in its rules & regulations before this situation arose.
        Crossfit IS a company that may use them AND, like many, probably DOES have a decency clause. In any event, there is NO rule that they must let you compete. Some women and men work LONG AND HARD just to HOPE!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Crossfit IS a company that may use them AND, like many, probably DOES have a decency clause. In any event, there is NO rule that they must let you compete. Some women and men work LONG AND HARD just to HOPE!

          Steve
          If they don't have a rule that says a man can not change into a woman and then compete in their games a judge may say that they will have to allow it to happen this time - and of course the rules will be updated prevented the next time.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            If they don't have a rule that says a man can not change into a woman and then compete in their games a judge may say that they will have to allow it to happen this time - and of course the rules will be updated prevented the next time.
            Men CAN'T change into women.
            Women CAN'T change into men.

            They DO have tests now to prove that you know! And crossfit is right! This IS stuff you should know before you graduate highschool.

            They have male and female competitions.

            They DO have rules about exogenous hormones and drugs and some other things.

            There IS the idea of fairness.

            There IS the idea of marketability.

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            If they don't have a rule that says a man can not change into a woman and then compete in their games a judge may say that they will have to allow it to happen this time - and of course the rules will be updated prevented the next time.
            Nature made the rule that a man is a man and a woman is a woman. As was already pointed out, the bodies are not the same. Both Steve and I already pointed that out.

            Society does not need a rule put into place for every detail in life.


            I know there are some people that would like every aspect of their life regulated,it takes away their responsibility to actually think.
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Nature made the rule that a man is a man and a woman is a woman. As was already pointed out, the bodies are not the same. Both Steve and I already pointed that out.

              Society does not need a rule put into place for every detail in life.


              I know there are some people that would like every aspect of their life regulated,it takes away their responsibility to actually think.
              You're still entitled.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      You can paint white stripes on a black horse but that doesn't make it a Zebra.
      Have to agree with you and Kay on this one. No matter what bits are cut off or tacked on, the athlete in question still has an X and Y chromosome. That Y chromosome usually (but not always) gives the person greater physical strength than those with two X chromosomes.

      I have no problem with treating a transgendered person as whatever they've transformed themselves into, but not in allowing them an unfair advantage over the other competitors.

      Perhaps she could compete against "female" athletes from the former East Germany.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I thought this was decided 40 years ago with Renee Richards? BTW, she didn't exactly dominate woman's tennis.

    Renée Richards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    It is not something that riles me up. It is going to my "whatever...I'm not going there" zone. Is there a significant population of athletes who are transgendered or underwent sex changes?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      It is not something that riles me up. It is going to my "whatever...I'm not going there" zone. Is there a significant population of athletes who are transgendered or underwent sex changes?
      If there WERE, crossfit said they would setup a group JUST FOR THEM. Luckily, MOST are reasonable here. OTHERS are like that female $%^&*( that CLAIMS to be a man, and hasn't even had the surgery yet. Every now and then, she goes off the hormones, has a kid, and then LIES to have an article written about her!

      Here is ONE example. I don't recall if it is even THE one I spoke about: Thomas Beatie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      GIVE ME A BREAK! She is in the GBWR as being the first married man to give birth to a kid, even though she IS disqualified from even trying out. SORRY, BUT TRUE! A MAN that wanted to have a kid would have the same kind of problems that AS had in junior.

      1. HOW do you get the ovum?
      2. HOW do you prepare the area to accept it?
      3. HOW do you avoid certain organs?
      4. HOW do you cycle certain events?

      So how did the supposed man do all that?

      1. FEMALE OVARIES! It was automatic!
      2. FEMALE UTERUS and biology! Automatic!
      3. It was contained in the FEMALE UTERUS!
      4. FEMALE BIOLOGY.

      There are aspects that they are only STARTING to appreciate, but there was NOTHING male about it! I don't care WHAT the courts claim. You can say she is a fish, but she still couldn't live and swim 100% in the water. HECK, some call dolphins fish and even THEY must come up for air, since they are MAMMALS!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        I'd let her compete. If she blows away the competition then have a discussion about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    What if the competition had been an intellectual one, rather than athletics based. Would it have been claimed that 'he' (note italics) had an advantage because men are smarter than women, or something? :rolleyes: If Chloe isn't allowed to compete as either gender, then maybe a discrimination complaint is in order? If 'he' asked to compete with the men, while looking physically like a woman, the public backlash and general controversies that would no doubt follow would turn the event in to a total circus!

    It is my understanding that when a person undergoes gender reassignment, the bodily changes that occur, through hormone treatments, conceivably transforms them in to the opposite sex.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

      <snip>
      It is my understanding that when a person undergoes gender reassignment, the bodily changes that occur, through hormone treatments, conceivably transforms them in to the opposite sex.
      If a person has male or female chromosomes, nothing will change that. In sports, the question would be if there would be an unfair physical advantage someone who underwent sex-change. The question at that point gets murky from my understanding.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        If a person has male or female chromosomes, nothing will change that. In sports, the question would be if there would be an unfair physical advantage someone who underwent sex-change. The question at that point gets murky from the understanding of my autistic mind.
        There are BILLIONS of people that never THINK of trying out! WHY would a court even bother to hear this case.

        BTW did you know that in some cases the law allows men to go into womens restrooms? If the boy or man claims to feel feminine, some states forbid keeping them out. Things are getting murky.

        http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes...bathrooms.html

        You would think that, if you wanted to be 100% permissive of male->female transgenders, you would allow them in the female restrooms only if they passably appear, as girls or women. Because THEN, and only then, you could make the case that they could then live a somewhat peaceful life where they otherwise may be persecuted. And it also makes it far less likely that the male in question would lie about his concerns.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          There are BILLIONS of people that never THINK of trying out! WHY would a court even bother to hear this case... Steve
          In other words, Chloe should not be asking to compete in anything then? Because he/she has no right to participate in the wider world? Banished to a sideshow act at the local fair. Give me a break! The world needs to learn how to deal with difficult legal issues surrounding transgenderism. Nobody said it would be easy!
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          <snip>
          BTW did you know that in some cases the law allows men to go into womens restrooms? If the boy or man claims to feel feminine, some states forbid keeping them out. Things are getting murky. <snip>
          I find the direction this thread is going kind of disturbing. I don't want to demonize people because of their gender issues. It is just not my style. Violent attacks against such individuals is a far more common and urgent problem -- does Fox ever report on that?
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            I find the direction this thread is going kind of disturbing. I don't want to demonize people because of their gender issues. It is just not my style. Violent attacks against such individuals is a far more common and urgent issue. Does Fox ever report on that?
            YEP, they DO! Just like the idea of violence on women, and perverts doing various things. Just a few days ago I heard a report of a state that passed a law declaring it was illegal to covertly take pictures up women's dresses. One guy earlier got off on the technicality that they were clothed in a public place.

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            I find the direction this thread is going kind of disturbing. I don't want to demonize people because of their gender issues. It is just not my style. Violent attacks against such individuals is a far more common and urgent problem. Does Fox ever report on that?
            I agree with you. My comments are based only on the issue of if a person born a male has the same make up as a person born a female.
            The answer is no.

            Other than that I am making no legal or moral judgments either way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


          BTW did you know that in some cases the law allows men to go into womens restrooms?
          My step father is blind. When I was young and first met him, I asked him how he knew which (public) bathroom to use.

          He replied that if he entered a bathroom and heard a scream he knew he was in the wrong bathroom.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

      What if the competition had been an intellectual one, rather than athletics based. Would it have been claimed that 'he' (note italics) had an advantage because men are smarter than women, or something? :rolleyes: If Chloe isn't allowed to compete as either gender, then maybe a discrimination complaint is in order? If 'he' asked to compete with the men, while looking physically like a woman, the public backlash and general controversies that would no doubt follow would turn the event in to a total circus!

      It is my understanding that when a person undergoes gender reassignment, the bodily changes that occur, through hormone treatments, conceivably transforms them in to the opposite sex.
      If it were an intellectual competition, there would be no advantage in having been a male. That might be hard for some guys to accept ........but.........tough noogies.

      The thing about an athletic competition is that the s/he still has joints in the knees and arms that are built differently and give quite an advantage to the transgender person. Unless they can reform it's joints, it's still male as far as the competition goes and unfair to women who were born with female body structures.

      This should be a no brainer...........unfortunately, it seems like "no-brain" is what our judicial system functions on today.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        If it were an intellectual competition, there would be no advantage in having been a male. That might be hard for some guys to accept ........but.........tough noogies.

        The thing about an athletic competition is that the s/he still has joints in the knees and arms that are built differently and give quite an advantage to the transgender person. Unless they can reform it's joints, it's still male as far as the competition goes and unfair to women who were born with female body structures.

        This should be a no brainer...........unfortunately, it seems like "no-brain" is what our judicial system functions on today.
        Thank you Sal, this is exactly what I have been saying.
        Hopefully coming from a woman those that disagree might actually accept these facts.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Thank you Sal, this is exactly what I have been saying.
          Hopefully coming from a woman those that disagree might actually accept these facts.
          Kim just so you know I agree with you guys about the joints and other things.
          But I don't see the harm in letting her compete, if for no other reason then to see how she really does against females.
          Like I said if she blows them away and she has a big advantage because of her body, don't let her race anymore. Then you have a precedent set in that type of competition based on a transgender competing in an actual event.
          If she is evenly matched, then there's no problem.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Joints are only a small part of the equation. More estrogen and less testosterone would mean a body can build less muscle mass and ligament strength.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Joints are only a small part of the equation. More estrogen and less testosterone would mean a body can build less muscle mass and ligament strength.
              I was under the assumption that they give hormone (pills, shots, something) to someone who's changed sex. I'm not an expert on the subject, lol. Would the tendon strength and muscle mass continue after hormones were changed or would both become a little more feminine with the introduction of new hormones? That would be a consideration, too. Definitely.

              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              Kim just so you know I agree with you guys about the joints and other things.
              But I don't see the harm in letting her compete, if for no other reason then to see how she really does against females.
              Like I said if she blows them away and she has a big advantage because of her body, don't let her race anymore. Then you have a precedent set in that type of competition based on a transgender competing in an actual event.
              If she is evenly matched, then there's no problem.
              Hadn't considered that. Sounds good, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Some people need to go back and take biology 101.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Originally Posted by seasoned
    YEP, they DO! <snip>

    Originally Posted by seasoned
    YEP, they DO! <snip>

    That's good. Got any links? I couldn't find any:
    https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%...ack+transexual
    Considering the subject of this thread, I'm not so sure "snip" is the best choice of words.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    Looking at the vastly different builds and physiques of a wide number of males and females, I think that the argument of a typical biological structure for a particular gender is ludicrous!
    Some women are muscle bound with masculine body shapes. Some males have slender frames with wide hips etc. The overlap between the sexes is too obvious to deny.

    We had the case not too long back of the Chinese female swimmer who was swimming faster times than the men. So who had the advantage there?
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I'm not qualified to specify the advantages or disadvantages in sport for a man who's had a sex-change operation to become a woman.

    MMA fighter Fallon Fox underwent a sex change to become a woman. She's done pretty well, but did suffer a defeat by TKO in her fifth match fighting as a woman.
    Fallon "The Queen of Swords" Fox MMA Stats, Pictures, News, Videos, Biography - Sherdog.com
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