U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science

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A followup to Kay King's thread,

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...e-failing.html

American 15-year-olds continue to turn in flat results in a test that measures students' proficiency in reading, math and science worldwide, failing to crack the global top 20.
"In mathematics, 29 nations and other jurisdictions outperformed the United States by a statistically significant margin,
The U.S. was slotted between the Slovak Republic and Lithuania in the overall results, two spots behind Russia.
U.S. Students Slide In Global Ranking On Math, Reading, Science : The Two-Way : NPR

Joe Mobley
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Why bother when they'll just end up outsourcing for $5?
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Until dicipline is brought back to the schools, nothing can be done. Sorry
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Give Common Core a chance.
      Then we will slip even further down:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    In other news: YouTube millionaires and reality television winners making a motza (fortune) without a decent education in sight ...
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  • Hm, let's see. We have bogus unions that keep underperforming teachers around for years. We have overmedicated kids in classrooms. We have parents who can't or won't control their children. And we have corrupt school and district administrations.

    Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      Hm, let's see. We have bogus unions that keep underperforming teachers around for years. We have overmedicated kids in classrooms. We have parents who can't or won't control their children. And we have corrupt school and district administrations.

      Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
      I vote for military coup.
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      • Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        I vote for military coup.
        Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

          Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
          It is simply Un American to do it any other way
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

            Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            It is simply Un American to do it any other way
            At least you're certain the fly is dead.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            It is simply Un American to do it any other way
            Especially over the last 30 years.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      Hm, let's see. We have bogus unions that keep underperforming teachers around for years. We have overmedicated kids in classrooms. We have parents who can't or won't control their children. And we have corrupt school and district administrations.

      Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
      I agree with everything you've said here. I'm going to have to rethink my position on the subject...
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      Hm, let's see. We have bogus unions that keep underperforming teachers around for years. We have overmedicated kids in classrooms. We have parents who can't or won't control their children. And we have corrupt school and district administrations.
      I agree with you on this... and agreeing with you makes me nervous.

      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
      I have ZERO interest in trying to fix the problem as long as public-sector unions are in the equation. Bailing a sinking boat (ship?) with a colander is a giant waste of resources, in my opinion.

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      • Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        I have ZERO interest in trying to fix the problem as long as public-sector unions are in the equation. Bailing a sinking boat (ship?) with a colander is a giant waste of resources, in my opinion.
        When it comes to the private sector, I'm all for unions, but for government employees, not so much.

        Civil servants already have considerably more protection than their private sector counterparts, and their employers are always under public scrutiny. So I'm not sure that they need collective bargaining on top of all that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      Hm, let's see. We have bogus unions that keep underperforming teachers around for years. We have overmedicated kids in classrooms. We have parents who can't or won't control their children. And we have corrupt school and district administrations.

      Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
      I'm with Riffle on this.

      I agree with everything you said.

      Don't we all know families with well behaved studious kids? What do they do differently? Just a thought.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        What they do differently in my own extended family is simple.

        They put the family first. They are not kid-centric and have clear rules of behavior and expectations that are consistent and enforced.

        They do not allow unlimited TV, computer time or unsupervised social media access. Kids are not entitled to smart phones or unlimited texting - these are bonuses they earn with responsibility. Sounds serious - yet these families tease, joke and laugh more than most families I've been around.

        The kids are expected to contribute to the family from the time they are old enough to put away their own toys. They learn early on that a tantrum results in isolation - not in getting what they want. At the same time, each child is encouraged and supported in pursuing his own interests whether it's sports or art or music or whatever.

        The families are often considered old fashioned or strict by other parents. But it's hard to argue with a method that consistently turns out great kids. Not one drug or drinking problem, not one brush with the law or failure in school....these parents are doing it right.

        Two of the families relocated to be in top public school districts - the others are home schooled at least until high school.

        The young parents in my family are so much better than I was - makes me want to go back and do it over again!
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          What they do differently in my own extended family is simple.

          They put the family first. They are not kid-centric and have clear rules of behavior and expectations that are consistent and enforced.

          They do not allow unlimited TV, computer time or unsupervised social media access. Kids are not entitled to smart phones or unlimited texting - these are bonuses they earn with responsibility. Sounds serious - yet these families tease, joke and laugh more than most families I've been around.

          The kids are expected to contribute to the family from the time they are old enough to put away their own toys. They learn early on that a tantrum results in isolation - not in getting what they want. At the same time, each child is encouraged and supported in pursuing his own interests whether it's sports or art or music or whatever.

          The families are often considered old fashioned or strict by other parents. But it's hard to argue with a method that consistently turns out great kids. Not one drug or drinking problem, not one brush with the law or failure in school....these parents are doing it right.

          Two of the families relocated to be in top public school districts - the others are home schooled at least until high school.

          The young parents in my family are so much better than I was - makes me want to go back and do it over again!
          Sounds a lot like our family. One other thing I'll add - and it may seem small but it is very important to us - we eat dinner every night at the table. No TV. We talk, get goofy, and no one has a phone at the table.

          Even when my 2 older sons visit with their significant others, we all fit at the table.

          Wouldn't trade that time for anything.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Interesting article from an education historian who says the US has never ranked #1 in international tests and she doesn't think it is important. I tend to agree with her and disagree with all the doomsayers about the USA in this issue ( and others also by the way ).

            The U.S. Department of Education would have us believe -- yet again -- that we are in an unprecedented crisis and that we must double down on the test-and-punish strategies of the past dozen years.

            The myth persists that once our nation led the world on international tests, but we have fallen from that exalted position in recent years.

            Wrong, wrong, wrong...

            The U.S. has never been first in the world, nor even near the top, on international tests.

            Over the past half century, our students have typically scored at or near the median, or even in the bottom quartile.

            International testing began in the mid-1960s with a test of mathematics. The First International Mathematics Study tested 13-year-olds and high-school seniors in 12 nations. American 13-year-olds scores significantly lower than students in nine other countries and ahead of students in only one. On a test given only to students currently enrolled in a math class, the U.S. students scored last, behind those in the 11 other nations. On a test given to seniors not currently enrolled in a math class, the U.S. students again scored last...

            The point worth noting here is that U.S. students have never been top performers on the international tests. We are doing about the same now on PISA as we have done for the past half century.

            Does it matter?

            ...looked at the per capita gross domestic product of those nations and found that "the higher a nation's test score 40 years ago, the worse its economic performance on this measure of national wealth-the opposite of what the Chicken Littles raising the alarm over the poor test scores of U.S. children claimed would happen." He found no relationship between a nation's economic productivity and its test scores. Nor did the test scores bear any relationship to quality of life or democratic institutions. And when it came to creativity, the U.S. "clobbered the world," with more patents per million people than any other nation.

            What has mattered most for the economic, cultural, and technological success of the U.S., he says, is a certain "spirit," which he defines as "ambition, inquisitiveness, independence, and perhaps most important, the absence of a fixation on testing and test scores."

            Baker's conclusion was that "standings in the league tables of international tests are worthless."

            The more we focus on tests, the more we kill creativity, ingenuity, and the ability to think differently. Students who think differently get lower scores. The more we focus on tests, the more we reward conformity and compliance, getting the right answer...

            Never do they explain how it was possible for the U.S. to score so poorly on international tests again and again over the past half century and yet still emerge as the world's leading economy, with the world's most vibrant culture, and a highly productive workforce...

            Improving the quality of life for the nearly one-quarter of students who live in poverty would improve their academic performance...

            Let others have the higher test scores. I prefer to bet on the creative, can-do spirit of the American people, on its character, persistence, ambition, hard work, and big dreams, none of which are ever measured or can be measured by standardized tests like PISA.




            What You Need to Know About the International Test Scores | Diane Ravitch
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

      <snip>

      Fixing this problem is going to have to begin with changing the way Americans think.
      I don't presume it is my place to control how people think. Is it really a problem when many of the world's most educated people emigrate to the United States? Most manufacturing jobs and many other other kinds of occupations (even skilled ones) will eventually be replaced by robotic systems. Service industries will likely continue to use people, though robots can do that as well, since customers tend to prefer some human interaction.
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  • Profile picture of the author GforceSage
    Scores are not as bad you are led to believe. The country has a ton of newcomers whose test scores get averaged in with those who have gone through the school systems from K-12.

    Outdated programs like part of "No Child Left Behind," that don't consider all aspects of education would have you believe that California is a bottom 10 test-score state...Try averaging in over a million test scores from kids trying to get a grasp on a new language and see what happens to your scores.

    UCLA, USC, Stanford, Cal, Cal Tech and all the other top tier Colleges in California are primarily filled by in-state kids. No other state can match the brainpower in California. Yet, the state gets bashed about dropping scores. Also, some of what is being taught is simply outdated. Texas is about to drop some advanced Math courses from their requirements because the argument of "When will I ever use this?" has not been answered for many industries. Not to belittle the need for well rounded students though, we will always need elite minds and those who can move Science and research forward. Just beware that the numbers can be painted any shade of grey to support ones agenda if there is one.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by GforceSage View Post

      ...UCLA, USC, Stanford, Cal, MIT and all the other top tier Colleges in California are primarily filled by in-state kids. No other state can match the brainpower in California...
      Umm, MIT is in Cambridge, Massachusetts (Massachusetts Institute of Technology).
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by GforceSage View Post

      Scores are not as bad you are led to believe. The country has a ton of newcomers whose test scores get averaged in with those who have gone through the school systems from K-12.
      If ONLY that were true. STILL, most going through K-12 will end up working in the US, so SAME DIFFERENCE!

      Outdated programs like part of "No Child Left Behind," that don't consider all aspects of education would have you believe that California is a bottom 10 test-score state...Try averaging in over a million test scores from kids trying to get a grasp on a new language and see what happens to your scores.
      WOW! you think there are THAT many illegal aliens in school, in california, etc... that can't speak english and are in the same grade. And I never saw people like that.

      The problem with no child left behind was that they assumed teachers cared and all students and schools are as capable. NONE of that is true!

      UCLA, USC, Stanford, Cal, MIT and all the other top tier Colleges in California are primarily filled by in-state kids.
      I don't know if they are primarily in state, but MIT IS in massachusetts.

      No other state can match the brainpower in California. Yet, the state gets bashed about dropping scores. Also, some of what is being taught is simply outdated.
      NONE of the older courses can ever be outdated. As for thr brainpower in california? I WISH! GEE, you didn't speak to the subcultures that DON'T CARE! You didn't speak to the subcultures that are actually *******FORBIDDEN******* to learn! If they dare to even TRY to learn, "friends" will abandon them! Family will DISOWN them! Of course, most of their families are very poor. GANGS will beat them up! STILL, some of them become "teachers" to make sure the NEXT generation will be worse. I have seen this not only in movies, but in REAL LIFE! I WAS in california for most of my life, after all.

      Texas is about to drop some advanced Math courses from their requirements because the argument of "When will I ever use this?" has not been answered for many industries.
      I have seen OLD movies where they asked the same. When I went to school many asked. You have to ask why they stopped NOW! And YEAH, a lot of the stuff I said that about I NEVER had to use.

      Not to belittle the need for well rounded students though, we will always need elite minds and those who can move Science and research forward. Just beware that the numbers can be painted any shade of grey to support ones agenda if there is one.
      The quality of education is BAD, even in CALIFORNIA, SORRY!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by GforceSage View Post

      Texas is about to drop some advanced Math courses from their requirements because the argument of "When will I ever use this?" has not been answered for many industries.
      Let me suggest some replacement courses:

      *** I started a new thread with this. ***

      http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9068340

      Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Let me suggest some replacement courses:

        Personal Finances 101 - Includes How to Balance Your Checking Account, Writing a Personal Budget, Explanation of Paycheck Stub Deductions, etc.

        Business Finance 101 - In this course, individuals will create and build a small business. This course will be lead by instructors who have actually built businesses to profitability. No book-theory shhhhtuf here.

        Individuals would not be allowed to advance to the 10th grade until these courses are completed successfully.

        Just a thought.

        Joe Mobley
        Love it! The education system was designed for people entering repetitive manufacturing jobs, so innovation was discouraged. That is now obsolote.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Let me suggest some replacement courses:

        Personal Finances 101 - Includes How to Balance Your Checking Account, Writing a Personal Budget, Explanation of Paycheck Stub Deductions, etc.

        Business Finance 101 - In this course, individuals will create and build a small business. This course will be lead by instructors who have actually built businesses to profitability. No book-theory shhhhtuf here.

        Individuals would not be allowed to advance to the 10th grade until these courses are completed successfully.

        Just a thought.

        Joe Mobley
        These courses SHOULD be redundant, and unnecessary BUT, obviously, some people NEED it. And PF101 IS along the lines of the "worker bee" stuff I was talking about.

        Although the Business Finance 101 one is COUNTER to that. ALSO, the BF 101 one has a LOT of problems! When I was in school, I actually attended a class that was like the BF 101 one. It was LUDICROUS! The way they did it was that people were split into groups, came up with an idea they agreed on. I forget how the financing worked, but everyone in the group got a job, etc... The goal was to work together to create the project and sell it. I don't know WHAT the teacher did besides setup the basics and give grades.

        As for PF 101, balancing my checkbook was not something I felt had to be taught, and I knew deductions were taken out. As for what the deductions are and how they are figured, teaching that would be ludicrous. They can change on a whim AND depend on your benefits, how much you are paid, locations, and which check it is in the year.

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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      Originally Posted by GforceSage View Post

      No other state can match the brainpower in California.
      I am California born and have lived in LA, Chula Vista, San Diego, Vallejo, Sacramento, and Roseville and I find the numbers below interesting. No doubt Cali has a ton of people, many great schools, and plenty of homegrown talent but the state certainly does not have a monopoly on brainpower.

      State % H.S. Grad Rank % Bach. Deg Rank% Adv. Degree Rank
      District of Columbia 87.1% 48.5% 28.0%
      Massachusetts 89.0% 19 38.2% 1 16.4% 1
      Colorado 89.3% 17 35.9% 2 12.7% 8
      Maryland 88.2% 22 35.7% 3 16.0% 2
      Connecticut 88.6% 20 35.6% 4 15.5% 3
      New Jersey 87.4% 27 34.5% 5 12.9% 7
      Virginia 86.6% 30 34.0% 6 14.1% 4
      Vermont 91.0% 5 33.1% 7 13.3% 6
      New York 84.7% 34 32.4% 8 14.0% 5
      New Hampshire 91.3% 4 32.0% 9 11.2% 12
      Minnesota 91.5% 2 31.5% 10 10.3% 17
      Washington 89.7% 16 31.0% 11 11.1% 13
      Illinois 86.4% 31 30.6% 12 11.7% 9
      Rhode Island 84.7% 35 30.5% 13 11.7% 10
      California 80.6% 48 29.9% 14 10.7% 14
      Hawaii 90.4% 8 29.6% 15 9.9% 21
      Kansas 89.7% 15 29.5% 16 10.2% 18
      Oregon 89.1% 18 29.2% 17 10.4% 16
      Delaware 87.4% 26 28.7% 18 11.4% 11
      Utah 90.4% 9 28.5% 19 9.1% 26
      United States 85.3% 27.9% 10.3%
      Georgia 83.9% 38 27.5% 20 9.9% 20
      Nebraska 89.8% 13 27.4% 22 8.8% 29
      Montana 90.8% 6 27.4% 21 8.3% 36
      Maine 90.2% 10 26.9% 23 9.6% 22
      Alaska 91.4% 3 26.6% 24 9.0% 27
      North Carolina 84.3% 36 26.5% 25 8.8% 30
      Pennsylvania 87.9% 24 26.4% 26 10.2% 19
      North Dakota 90.1% 11 25.8% 27 6.7% 48
      Wisconsin 89.8% 14 25.7% 28 8.4% 35
      Arizona 84.2% 37 25.6% 29 9.3% 25
      Texas 79.9% 50 25.5% 30 8.5% 33
      New Mexico 82.8% 42 25.3% 32 10.4% 15
      Florida 85.3% 33 25.3% 31 9.0% 28
      Missouri 86.8% 28 25.2% 33 9.5% 23
      Iowa 90.5% 7 25.1% 34 7.4% 43
      South Dakota 89.9% 12 25.1% 35 7.3% 45
      Michigan 87.9% 23 24.6% 36 9.4% 24
      South Carolina 83.6% 40 24.3% 37 8.4% 34
      Ohio 87.6% 25 24.1% 38 8.8% 31
      Idaho 88.4% 21 23.9% 39 7.5% 42
      Wyoming 91.8% 1 23.8% 40 7.9% 39
      Tennessee 83.1% 41 23.0% 41 7.9% 38
      Oklahoma 85.6% 32 22.7% 42 7.4% 44
      Indiana 86.6% 29 22.5% 43 8.1% 37
      Alabama 82.1% 46 22.0% 44 7.7% 40
      Nevada 83.9% 39 21.8% 45 7.6% 41
      Louisiana 82.2% 45 21.4% 46 6.9% 47
      Kentucky 81.7% 47 21.0% 47 8.5% 32
      Mississippi 80.4% 49 19.6% 48 7.1% 46
      Arkansas 82.4% 44 18.9% 49 6.1% 50
      West Virginia 82.8% 43 17.3% 50 6.7% 49

      List of U.S. states by educational attainment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Brainpower score Brainpower rankAscending Adults with high school diplomas Adults with bachelor's degrees Adults with graduate degrees
      Washington 6.9382 1 90.0% 47.6% 22.8%
      Madison, Wis. 5.5477 2 94.5% 42.9% 17.6%
      Bridgeport-Stamford, Conn. 5.3254 3 89.3% 44.9% 19.4%
      Boston 5.1787 4 90.6% 43.0% 19.0%
      San Jose 5.0589 5 86.4% 45.7% 20.1%
      Durham, N.C. 4.9767 6 87.5% 43.1% 20.4%
      San Francisco-Oakland 4.1938 7 87.5% 44.2% 17.3%
      Raleigh 3.1465 8 89.8% 41.3% 13.8%
      Minneapolis-St. Paul 3.1034 9 93.0% 38.7% 12.8%
      Colorado Springs 2.8696 10 93.9% 34.8% 13.4%
      Albany, N.Y. 2.8080 11 91.7% 33.8% 15.2%
      Seattle 2.7665 12 91.4% 37.3% 13.5%
      Denver 2.6797 13 89.5% 38.9% 13.7%
      Portland, Maine 2.6413 14 92.8% 35.8% 12.9%
      Hartford 2.6374 15 89.4% 35.4% 15.4%
      Austin 2.5165 16 87.9% 40.2% 13.6%
      Baltimore 2.4861 17 88.6% 35.7% 15.3%
      Provo, Utah 2.0433 18 93.4% 35.7% 10.6%
      New Haven, Conn. 1.8431 19 88.2% 32.5% 15.1%
      Portland, Ore. 1.7728 20 90.5% 34.1% 12.5%
      Rochester, N.Y. 1.7551 21 89.4% 32.3% 14.1%
      New York City 1.6928 22 84.8% 36.5% 14.9%
      Worcester, Mass. 1.5618 23 89.2% 33.7% 12.9%
      Philadelphia 1.4721 24 88.7% 33.4% 13.1%
      Kansas City 1.3862 25 90.5% 33.0% 11.8%
      Des Moines, Iowa 1.3646 26 92.3% 34.2% 9.9%
      Columbus 1.3185 27 90.1% 33.3% 11.7%
      Chicago 1.1885 28 86.6% 34.4% 13.1%
      Omaha 1.1883 29 91.1% 32.9% 10.8%
      Atlanta 1.1157 30 87.5% 34.7% 12.1%
      Poughkeepsie, N.Y. 1.0201 31 88.4% 30.7% 13.2%
      Pittsburgh 1.0064 32 91.8% 29.8% 11.3%
      Buffalo 0.9565 33 89.8% 29.2% 12.8%
      San Diego 0.8393 34 85.3% 34.1% 13.0%
      St. Louis 0.7993 35 89.7% 30.5% 11.7%
      Milwaukee 0.7962 36 89.6% 32.0% 11.0%
      Honolulu 0.7880 37 90.3% 31.6% 10.7%
      Syracuse, N.Y. 0.7637 38 89.1% 29.1% 12.7%
      Albuquerque 0.5940 39 87.4% 29.7% 13.0%
      Salt Lake City 0.4020 40 88.9% 31.0% 10.7%
      Indianapolis 0.4012 41 88.6% 31.2% 10.8%
      Ogden, Utah 0.3979 42 92.5% 29.3% 9.1%
      Richmond 0.3843 43 86.6% 32.0% 11.7%
      Bradenton-Sarasota, Fla. 0.3647 44 89.7% 28.3% 11.4%
      Springfield, Mass. 0.3455 45 86.8% 29.7% 12.6%
      Tucson 0.2907 46 87.2% 29.8% 12.1%
      Harrisburg, Pa. 0.2727 47 89.7% 28.5% 11.0%
      Charleston, S.C. 0.2490 48 87.8% 31.1% 10.9%
      Charlotte 0.2193 49 87.2% 33.1% 10.2%
      Virginia Beach-Norfolk 0.1960 50 89.7% 28.6% 10.7%
      Cincinnati 0.1786 51 88.8% 29.5% 10.8%
      Akron, Ohio 0.1474 52 90.5% 28.4% 10.1%
      Columbia, S.C. 0.0982 53 87.9% 29.6% 11.1%
      Nashville 0.0001 54 87.2% 30.9% 10.6%
      Knoxville, Tenn. -0.0259 55 87.9% 29.0% 11.0%
      Boise, Idaho -0.0481 56 90.0% 29.2% 9.4%
      Cleveland -0.0966 57 88.6% 28.0% 10.8%
      Sacramento -0.0968 58 87.7% 30.0% 10.4%
      Jackson, Miss. -0.2006 59 86.4% 29.3% 11.3%
      Detroit -0.2323 60 88.1% 27.8% 10.8%
      Palm Bay-Melbourne, Fla. -0.4691 61 90.0% 25.9% 9.7%
      Grand Rapids, Mich. -0.4898 62 89.3% 27.5% 9.3%
      Little Rock, Ark. -0.5125 63 88.6% 27.7% 9.6%
      Oklahoma City -0.6133 64 87.6% 28.2% 9.7%
      Dayton, Ohio -0.6290 65 88.8% 25.1% 10.4%
      Wichita, Kans. -0.6498 66 88.9% 27.8% 8.9%
      Oxnard-Thousand Oaks, Calif. -0.6742 67 82.5% 31.3% 11.4%
      Allentown-Bethlehem, Pa. -0.7336 68 87.7% 26.5% 10.1%
      Dallas-Fort Worth -0.7771 69 83.7% 31.4% 10.2%
      Providence -0.7906 70 83.8% 29.2% 11.2%
      Orlando -0.8096 71 87.4% 27.8% 9.4%
      Phoenix -0.8133 72 86.2% 28.4% 9.9%
      Jacksonville -0.8925 73 88.7% 27.3% 8.5%
      Louisville -0.9106 74 87.3% 25.9% 10.1%
      Miami-Fort Lauderdale -1.0793 75 83.6% 28.8% 10.6%
      Toledo, Ohio -1.0806 76 89.3% 23.9% 9.2%
      Birmingham -1.1729 77 85.3% 27.1% 10.0%
      Tampa-St. Petersburg -1.2841 78 87.5% 26.0% 8.7%
      Tulsa -1.4052 79 88.1% 25.8% 8.0%
      Greenville, S.C. -1.4133 80 84.0% 27.5% 9.9%
      Baton Rouge, La. -1.4523 81 86.1% 26.8% 8.7%
      Memphis -1.6038 82 85.9% 25.7% 8.9%
      Cape Coral-Fort Myers, Fla. -1.6337 83 86.8% 24.1% 9.0%
      New Orleans -1.6493 84 84.5% 26.3% 9.4%
      Scranton-Wilkes-Barre, Pa. -1.7220 85 88.6% 22.3% 8.4%
      Los Angeles -1.7580 86 78.2% 31.3% 10.8%
      Houston -1.7765 87 81.0% 29.0% 10.0%
      Greensboro, N.C. -1.9096 88 84.8% 26.4% 8.3%
      Augusta, Ga. -2.0248 89 85.3% 23.8% 8.9%
      San Antonio -2.0614 90 82.9% 26.0% 9.3%
      Lancaster, Pa. -2.6203 91 84.0% 23.5% 8.0%
      Chattanooga, Tenn. -2.6407 92 84.2% 23.1% 8.0%
      Youngstown, Ohio -2.8251 93 88.5% 19.3% 6.4%
      Las Vegas -3.1208 94 83.9% 22.0% 7.2%
      Lakeland, Fla. -4.6160 95 82.3% 18.1% 5.4%
      Riverside-San Bernardino, Calif. -4.7258 96 78.6% 19.4% 6.9%
      El Paso, Texas -5.5208 97 74.2% 20.6% 6.7%
      Stockton, Calif. -5.5799 98 77.1% 18.3% 5.7%
      Modesto, Calif. -6.1343 99 76.6% 16.2% 5.3%
      Fresno, Calif. -6.1951 100 72.9% 19.2% 6.1%
      Bakersfield, Calif. -7.3234 101 72.1% 15.0% 5.1%
      McAllen-Edinburg, Texas -9.2939 102 62.3% 16.1%

      The Business Journals' brainpower rankings for 102 major markets - The Business Journals
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

        I am California born and have lived in LA, Chula Vista, San Diego, Vallejo, Sacramento, and Roseville and I find the numbers below interesting. No doubt Cali has a ton of people, many great schools, and plenty of homegrown talent but the state certainly does not have a monopoly on brainpower.
        Well, with NO standards, grades don't mean much. That is ESPECIALLY true when you compare across countries. Still, I am california born and have lived in LA, BODFISH, ATWATER, VALENCIA,CALABASAS etc.... I actually heard that LAUSD was about the worst, and california was as well. I also heard that the US wasn't doing that well, though it was FAR better than it is.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Whatever GForceSage. My sister teaches in CA and she can't believe how stupid the kids are. The teachers are all pissed - very pissed.

    So far 2 states have banned Common Core. Illinois and Oklahoma. I'm betting a lot of others are getting ready to follow suit. People are becoming furious with schools that worry more about PC than teaching the solid subjects.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author GforceSage
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Whatever GForceSage. My sister teaches in CA and she can't believe how stupid the kids are. The teachers are all pissed - very pissed.

      So far 2 states have banned Common Core. Illinois and Oklahoma. I'm betting a lot of others are getting ready to follow suit. People are becoming furious with schools that worry more about PC than teaching the solid subjects.
      That was part of the point Sal. I mentioned that scores are dropping for a reason. I would not use the term "Stupid," but those who bring the scores down, do pose quite a challenge. I work with over 30 schools, so I speak from experience. I can understand your sister's frustration.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Whatever happened to the three R's?
    Signature
    Why do garden gnomes smell so bad?
    So that blind people can hate them as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    I don't think the U.S. has ever been the premier brainiac nation. Most of the early advances in space technology were driven by imported brains. Wernher Von Braun was German, Maxime Faget, the designer of the Mercury capsule that housed John Glenn's orbital mission, was from Belize.

    And not to be even remotely stereotypical, but look at the credits when you open up any Adobe product - Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.

    The strength of the U.S. comes from our ability to drive innovation, using whatever talent is available, and finding the talent if it isn't readily available. The modern world's greatest advancements have come from the U.S. for the most part. Medicine, space exploration, flight, photography, the internet, on and on.

    I think the current U.S. education system emphasizes conformity and mediocrity. Maybe that's as it should be; after all, the public school system is basically a worker-bee factory. A very expensive worker-bee factory.

    One aspect that I would like to see changed is the filtering out of exceptional minds at an early age. Exceptional students are not nurtured and encouraged in the public schools as they should be, and in fact are repressed. Much of that repression comes from, I believe, catering to the majority -- especially the feelings of the majority. After all, smart kids make normal kids feel stupid, and we can't have that.

    So start looking for the smart kids, the exceptional ones, and get them out of the mainstream as early as possible, leaving open the availability of moving to exceptional side any time brilliance manifests itself.

    Just MHO, of course.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      I don't think the U.S. has ever been the premier brainiac nation.
      Well, I for one never claimed that it was, but I think with the newer advancements, you are over simplifying.

      [quoteI think the current U.S. education system emphasizes conformity and mediocrity. Maybe that's as it should be; after all, the public school system is basically a worker-bee factory. A very expensive worker-bee factory.[/quote]

      It wasn't SUPPOSED to be. After all, the stuff needed to be a workerbee is generally supposed to be taught BEFORE highschool. Even then, they taught a lot of stuff that wasn't needed for society or business. BTW The amish only go to school for 10 years.

      HECK, when I went to school, trade school type programs were ELECTIVE! If you want to have a school for WORKER BEES, it would make more sense to simplify the earlier grades, forget about some history, grammar, foreign languages, play, art, etc.... THEN, you could have an ASVAB type test, and let the child pick the most desired job from those they are most likely to do well. You could then teach them what is needed. Of course, it is unAmerican, and unjust, etc.... but kids would spend LESS time in school, and be better workers.

      One aspect that I would like to see changed is the filtering out of exceptional minds at an early age. Exceptional students are not nurtured and encouraged in the public schools as they should be, and in fact are repressed. Much of that repression comes from, I believe, catering to the majority -- especially the feelings of the majority. After all, smart kids make normal kids feel stupid, and we can't have that.

      So start looking for the smart kids, the exceptional ones, and get them out of the mainstream as early as possible, leaving open the availability of moving to exceptional side any time brilliance manifests itself.

      Just MHO, of course.
      You have THAT right.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      I don't think the U.S. has ever been the premier brainiac nation. Most of the early advances in space technology were driven by imported brains. Wernher Von Braun was German, Maxime Faget, the designer of the Mercury capsule that housed John Glenn's orbital mission, was from Belize.

      And not to be even remotely stereotypical, but look at the credits when you open up any Adobe product - Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.

      The strength of the U.S. comes from our ability to drive innovation, using whatever talent is available, and finding the talent if it isn't readily available. The modern world's greatest advancements have come from the U.S. for the most part. Medicine, space exploration, flight, photography, the internet, on and on.

      I think the current U.S. education system emphasizes conformity and mediocrity. Maybe that's as it should be; after all, the public school system is basically a worker-bee factory. A very expensive worker-bee factory.

      One aspect that I would like to see changed is the filtering out of exceptional minds at an early age. Exceptional students are not nurtured and encouraged in the public schools as they should be, and in fact are repressed. Much of that repression comes from, I believe, catering to the majority -- especially the feelings of the majority. After all, smart kids make normal kids feel stupid, and we can't have that.

      So start looking for the smart kids, the exceptional ones, and get them out of the mainstream as early as possible, leaving open the availability of moving to exceptional side any time brilliance manifests itself.

      Just MHO, of course.
      The US school system blows out more genius level kids than any other nation in the industrialized world. Geniuses don't follow social norms like average intelligence levels and they will rebel or just leave when pressed too hard to be part of the crowd.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        The US school system blows out more genius level kids than any other nation in the industrialized world. Geniuses don't follow social norms like average intelligence levels and they will rebel or just leave when pressed to hard to be part of the crowd.
        If the educators just got out of their way instead of cracking down on them, that in itself would be a vast improvement. Then, a further improvement would be to provide some materials to help them develop whatever they're working on. It worked for teenage physicist Jacob Barnett, though it was his mother who did that for him while the education system was destructive, negative, and totally erroneous in their assessments towards him in his early childhood. Read "The Spark: A Mother's Story of Nurturing Genius," describes it all.

        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Let me suggest some replacement courses:<snip>In this course, individuals will create and build a small business. This course will be lead by instructors who have actually built businesses to profitability. <snip>
        Well, as a father, my intention is for my son to be economically independent by his own means by the time he is 13 years old.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

          Well, as a father, my intention is for my son to be economically independent by his own means by the time he is 13 years old.
          The gift you are giving your son, his wife, his children, their children and ultimately yourself can hardly be measured.

          I am happy and joyously envious for you and him.

          All the best,

          Joe Mobley
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          Follow Me on Twitter: @daVinciJoe
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Regarding PF101 One thing I WISH I knew earlier, and I wish more employers called attention to upon hiring is the W4. If you act on good faith, as defined by the IRS, you could set this number pretty high and potentially pay NO income tax. So you can use what WOULD have been paid for savings, an IRA, etc....

    Of course, the key phrase is good faith. If you don't pay them enough, when "due", they will also assess penalties and interest when you pay the tax at the end of the year.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    Boils down to 2 things.

    1. Can't flunk a student because it will damage his self esteem.

    2. Schools/teachers have to acheive a "pass" level based on student grades.

    So, how do you do this?
    Dumb down the teaching.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

      Boils down to 2 things.

      1. Can't flunk a student because it will damage his self esteem.

      2. Schools/teachers have to acheive a "pass" level based on student grades.

      So, how do you do this?
      Dumb down the teaching.
      I agree to a point. It would be silly to give a pass to students who flunk tests and high achieving students shouldn't be stifled and held back by practices to achieve a sense of inclusiveness for other students. However, it is wrong and destructive to ostracise and isolate students who aren't meeting criteria. If they aren't tended to, they'd be more likely to end up becoming criminals and costing the system a lot more money down the road.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        I agree to a point. It would be silly to give a pass to students who flunk tests and high achieving students shouldn't be stifled and held back by practices to achieve a sense of inclusiveness for other students. However, it is wrong and destructive to ostracise and isolate students who aren't meeting criteria. If they aren't tended to, they'd be more likely to end up becoming criminals and costing the system a lot more money down the road.
        HOW about we, as some once claimed the goal was: had 3 types of schools:

        One for kids with, for purposes of comparison: IQs below say 85
        And one for kids that were smarter.

        The one for smarter kids could be, like some have been, self directed with goals.

        The smarter kids could do well while the others could seem to do well.

        Transcript of Lois Lerner’s Remarks at Tax Meeting Sparking IRS Controversy | Election Law Blog

        Emails show IRS' Lois Lerner specifically targeted tea party - Washington Times

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          HOW about we, as some once claimed the goal was: had 3 types of schools:

          One for kids with, for purposes of comparison: IQs below say 85
          And one for kids that were smarter.

          The one for smarter kids could be, like some have been, self directed with goals.

          The smarter kids could do well while the others could seem to do well.

          Transcript of Lois Lerner’s Remarks at Tax Meeting Sparking IRS Controversy | Election Law Blog

          Emails show IRS' Lois Lerner specifically targeted tea party - Washington Times

          Steve
          It was basically like that when I went to school in Canada. There were schools for "slow learners" (another term is probably used nowadays). What exactly is going on in the US school system? Are they really making all students study at the same level, however quick at learning, however slow? I thought there were gifted children's programs in the United States.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            It was basically like that when I went to school in Canada. There were schools for "slow learners" (another term is probably used nowadays). What exactly is going on in the US school system? Are they really making all students study at the same level, however quick at learning, however slow? I thought there were gifted children's programs in the United States.
            There ARE gifted programs in the US, at least last I knew. They aren't well advertised, not everywhere, etc.... Besides, I was not very impressed with the products of it that I saw. And the regular schools aren't all that great EITHER.

            A given teacher for a given grade for a given school DOES "teach" all the students to the same level. Those that can't keep up have problems. Those that know the subject are BORED! HECK, I took a spanish class where many had spanish as their FIRST language. Students asked why they were there and all the teacher could say was that they had grammatical problems.

            The TEACHER had a lot of latitude. This meant that even changing TEACHERS for a subject, all other things being equal, could be problematic if even average students wanted to keep up.

            I say HAD, because NOW, they have decided to change everything. NOW, they have to teach to a test and teach using some rather absurd methods. They even changed terminology. If the terminology, or methods, aren't followed precisely, even a genius in the subject will FAIL courses! Ironically, if the terminology and methods are followed, even an idiot could get good scores. 1+1=3(as one here likes to show ) would actually be considered CORRECT if the person shows the proper work!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Yeah, I am disgusted with school standards and practices in general these days.
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