Congratulations to the new mod(s)

12 years ago

No complaints against the new Mods, but it feels like something is missing, Paul Myers.

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Frank Donovan

12 years ago

This thread should really be posted in the Off Topic forum - that would be helping the mods.

[EDIT Told you so.]

The new mods may well be doing a grand job, but when you consider what the "old" mods had to contend with, they're the ones who deserve the congratulations.

The new appointees have some big shoes to fill and I wish them all the best.

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writeaway

12 years ago

Impartiality, ego-free decisionmaking, and the absence of groupthink are the keys to a better WF. So far, so good.

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yukon,Depends on whether the problem posts are deleted or not. If they are, it may be totally obvious to the mod who locked it that it will continue to be an issue, but not at all clear to anyone else.

Threads will often get cleaned up and locked to preserve the useful discussions that preceded a serious derailing. That sometimes involves a ban of some length on the member(s) who created the problem. Without that combination, it could end up that an otherwise useful thread needs to be deleted entirely.

BTW... I know you already know this. It's more for the benefit of the folks who don't.

Paul

True about thread cleanup.

I took OPs comments as a backhanded compliment towards mods in general more than a compliment towards new mods. Especially the comment below:

Originally Posted by writeaway

Impartiality, ego-free decisionmaking, and the absence of groupthink are the keys to a better WF.

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Yukon,

There are a lot of folks for whom other people holding different shared opinions qualifies as groupthink.

That is an especially interesting word in this context. Moderation in a forum like this will invariably require some level of personal interpretation. In those cases, the overriding principles must be the management's philosophy and goals and the best interests of the group as a whole.

You could call that groupthink, if you disagree with those things and wish to paint them in a negative light. Or you could call it what it is: teamwork.

As far as ego and partiality...

Many people claim that being a mod is, in and of itself, an ego trip. The conflict between that and a desire to help a group grow and flourish never occurs to them. And it's an extremely safe bet that these same people would go off on rampages if they were suddenly subjected to a forum without mods.

Who would buy their stuff if the only visitors left were spambots?

Partiality is a whole other thing. For years spam-supporters argued with me that my opinion on email spamming "lacks the impartial approach a good moderator should take." They don't want to acknowledge that this forum would never have survived in anything resembling its current form if it had continued to allow spam support like it once did.

ALL forums have some guiding philosophy. The people who last tend toward agreement with that philosophy, as a group. It's hardly universal, but it is a tendency. Folks who disagree strongly will more often than not find a place where others share their own ideas and ideals.

So, the real objection is a bit more self-interested than these pseudo-libertarian "free speachers" would like one to believe. They want access to the marketplace this forum's historical philosophy and moderation policy has helped create, but they want it under terms that allow them to operate under different principles.

Paul

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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

So, the real objection is a bit more self-interested than these pseudo-libertarian "free speachers" would like one to believe. They want access to the marketplace this forum's historical philosophy and moderation policy has helped create, but they want it under terms that allow them to operate under different principles.

Paul

That pretty much sums it up right there. Give me, give me, give me...

This thread insinuates forum moderation wasn't done correctly until recently which anyone that's been around here longer than 6 months knows that's silly. If anything the flood gate was opened (you know what I mean).

Don't get me wrong, adding more mods has thinned out some of the spam.

I don't think ego has much to do with being a mod, for me it's more of not wanting to see spammers trash the place. No forum has a chance without moderation, it's just impossible.

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Alex Blades 12 years ago

Originally Posted by writeaway

Impartiality, ego-free decisionmaking.

I never seen any of that in the past, and the new mods are doing what they are paid to do. I've seen alot of blogs that are anti-WF but they all sounded like sour grapes to me. All the blogs I've read had a beef with the Mods from here.

I've had threads moved or removed, and never got the feeling there was an ego maniac Mod involved. I am very opinionated and post my share of crap, and always thought the Mods have been fair, and patient with me.

I'm not sure what your experience has been with the old Mods, but they do deserves a lot of the credit for the WF being what it is today. I've told Paul a few weeks ago that it is the mods that are the glue to the WF, and of course he said no it was the Warriors, but we all know keeps the WF going. Had it not been for the dedication of the old mods, WF would have just been another DP and Allen would still be the owner.

The new mods are good now at picking up the obvious thread starter spam, but lack the experience required to pick up all of the self promotion, link dropping spam

From what I've seen it's been slower, and checking reported spam has been slower, even though it is still picked up fast enough
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- Paul Myers 12 years ago
  
  Alex,
  
  I've told Paul a few weeks ago that it is the mods that are the glue to the WF, and of course he said no it was the Warriors
  
  Because it is.
  
  The instant a moderator forgets that the members are the driving force in a forum, they need to be replaced with some other moderator whose ego hasn't gotten lost in the process.
  
  In a forum, the members are the only thing that counts.
  
  As far as the rest... People are entitled to their opinions. If they pay for the platform on which they express those opinions, they should be left alone to say what they think.
  
  That is what free speech is about. Not "I want to use your platform to abuse you," or "I expect you to pay to support my position." It's about letting people express themselves freely, at their own expense and under their own responsibility, without screwing with them in the process.
  
  Smart people will make their own decisions, yay or nay. Those are the only people I'm interested in dealing with anyway.
  
  Paul
  
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  Kay King 12 years ago
  
  If I had to give a visual explanation of moderators it might be comparing them to sieves that keep the lumps out.
  
  When I report a questionable post or thread - I don't have ownership in that report. I'm asking mods to "look at this" - and they make the decision...not me.
  
  I've seen people posting to volunteer as a WF moderator at times - and I've always thought anyone who wanted the position probably would not be good at it.
  
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  Alex Blades 12 years ago
  
  In a forum, the members are the only thing that counts.
  
  I don't think I've ever disagreed with you, but without the Mods, a forum would just go to crap. It's like a city without police.
  
  Mods play a big role in building the forum, and without them the forum would be nothing more then a spam box and a place to get into flame wars. People would not join a forum like that let alone participate.
  
  A forum without Mods is like peanut without the butter, like peaches without the Herb, or Guns and Roses without Slash.
  
  I think the members play a huge role in the building of a forum, but as humans we need to be policed, or rules will get bent and eventually broken. Humans have been known to ruin a good thing since the beginning of time. I don't think it is possible to have a successful forum without Mods in place.
  
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  But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "
  
  ~ Jeff Bezos
  
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IrisMKH

12 years ago

Oh, I love hearing why decisions were made - it's very rare to hear an explanation when it comes to forum moderation. It helps the person who was moderated and it provides guidelines for other members too.

I just like hearing the reasoning behind things, but it provides some benefits to the forum itself too. On a different (completely unrelated) forum I visit, a whole thread derailed into discussing why a member was banned. On here, it might prevent complaint threads.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Iris,

On here, it might prevent complaint threads.

Not going to help. The threads will just turn to debate and vitriol about how stupid the policies are, rather than screaming about not being told. And those tend to devolve into personal attacks and paranoia pretty quickly.

The only part of the forum I actively moderate any more is the JV section. In the rules thread (posted almost 2 years ago) I am very clear that any offer from someone with less than 50 posts will be deleted unread, and I explain why.

I get arguments about that several times a week, and many of them turn into personal attacks. People claim it's why they paid for a War Room membership, and threaten to do chargebacks or rant all over the place because I won't do things their way.

Telling them those rules were publicly posted more than a year before they decided to pay to join doesn't help.

There are grey areas in a lot of the decisions in the JV section. This isn't one of them. It is the clearest and most objectively implemented rule you can imagine. Simple math.

If that doesn't prevent the arguments, what will?

Nothing.

As a side note, roughly 40% of the offers attempted in that section every week are from members with less than 50 posts. Another big chunk is affiliate recruitment, which is also specifically mentioned in the rules as not being accepted in that section. And at least 4 or 5 a week looking for investors, which is on the "not here" list.

So much for clear rules helping moderation...

Paul
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yukon

Banned 12 years ago

Common sense will usually be enough to explain why a thread gets locked.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Yukon,

Common sense will usually be enough to explain why a thread gets locked.

Depends on whether the problem posts are deleted or not. If they are, it may be totally obvious to the mod who locked it that it will continue to be an issue, but not at all clear to anyone else.

Threads will often get cleaned up and locked to preserve the useful discussions that preceded a serious derailing. That sometimes involves a ban of some length on the member(s) who created the problem. Without that combination, it could end up that an otherwise useful thread needs to be deleted entirely.

BTW... I know you already know this. It's more for the benefit of the folks who don't.

Paul
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George Wright

12 years ago

Hey Paul,

I was a WF member when you came on board as a mod and I was a member when you said good bye as a mod and I was here when you showed back up.

The place is better when you are here and even better when you are a Mod.

Personally, I could never see how you could take it, all of the abuse that is. I sure couldn't.

Had to say it.

I know I'll get some heat from some and be called names by others, however I strongly suspect most of the silent majority (when it comes to participating in/causing controversy here) agree with me.

Wow, what a verbose way to say,

Thank You Paul,

George Wright

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seomaster5

12 years ago

Congratulations best ov luck

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Thank you, George.

Honestly, I think my role has been a bit overstated. I may be the only one to have publicly talked about the process for a while, but the actual load has been carried by a lot of people.

That includes, especially, people like you who report the problems. Moderating here would be a nightmare without you and the others who pointed us to where we were needed.

It's a team effort.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

The new mods are good now at picking up the obvious thread starter spam, but lack the experience required to pick up all of the self promotion, link dropping spam. It still exists in abundance. I do hope the member moderators continue to help point these posts out when they run across them. It's really the only way that conversations will be relevant and useful in those subforums that the spammers pick to attempt to self promote. Just in the past couple of days, I've reported not only blatant self promoters but several other profiles who were working with or linked to the self promoter ... having conversations with the promoter so that they could look like there was "talk" about their product. They were pretty stupid about it because it was the same question being asked by the same person in at least 8 threads.

Considering that there weren't 16 extra paid mods around, the long standing team of volunteer moderators have done an outstanding job here for many years. Whoever said above that the new mods have big shoes to fill is right.

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writeaway

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The new mods are good now at picking up the obvious thread starter spam, but lack the experience required to pick up all of the self promotion, link dropping spam. It still exists in abundance. I do hope the member moderators continue to help point these posts out when they run across them. It's really the only way that conversations will be relevant and useful in those subforums that the spammers pick to attempt to self promote. Just in the past couple of days, I've reported not only blatant self promoters but several other profiles who were working with or linked to the self promoter ... having conversations with the promoter so that they could look like there was "talk" about their product. They were pretty stupid about it because it was the same question being asked by the same person in at least 8 threads.

Considering that there weren't 16 extra paid mods around, the long standing team of volunteer moderators have done an outstanding job here for many years. Whoever said above that the new mods have big shoes to fill is right.

Give the new team time to rise and shine. If they can rise above the 'us cool kids' clique mentality that tends to surface in almost all forums, they'd be doing all of us a favor. So far, from what I've seen, they're doing a good job. All the stuff you mentioned above happened frequently before Freelancer took over. In fact, it was very rampant then. A previous mod didn't seem to get it when I reported the old and tired 'question spam' technique. Regardless, the moderation is getting better now. I think a lot of the nostalgic threads are just people venting because, hey, let's face it, change can be very scary for many people. But change is the future. Can't stop it. Just be a part of it. We can all do our part to make WF even better instead of standing around and pining for the 'good old days.' The funny thing about the good old days is that they're only 'good' when filtered through nostalgia and frustrations with the present. Personally, I'd rather be excited about the FUTURE.

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Frank Donovan

12 years ago

Originally Posted by writeaway

A previous mod didn't seem to get it when I reported the old and tired 'question spam' technique.

Ah. I was wondering what your beef was.

I think a lot of the nostalgic threads are just people venting because, hey, let's face it, change can be very scary for many people. But change is the future. Can't stop it. Just be a part of it. We can all do our part to make WF even better instead of standing around and pining for the 'good old days.' The funny thing about the good old days is that they're only 'good' when filtered through nostalgia and frustrations with the present. Personally, I'd rather be excited about the FUTURE.

No offense intended, but that's just a pile of clichéd, patronizing codswallop. There might be a few members who resist change for the sake of it, but most of us have been around long enough to know that change is inevitable and have learned to use it to our advantage in our businesses (and lives). You can save your life lessons 101 for a less experienced audience.

What I find objectionable about the tone of your OP and related comments is the implication that the forum was somehow in terminal decline until Freelancer rode to the rescue. The fact that a publicly traded company thought the WF was worth spending millions of dollars to acquire suggests otherwise. It also ignores the point Paul made upthread that the forum in which you have chosen to build your rep rose to its current pre-eminent and influential position precisely because of the culture fostered over many years by the owner, the mods and the membership.

You can enthuse all you like about the future, but show a little respect for the efforts others have put in to get this place to where it is.

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Mark Singletary 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

You can enthuse all you like about the future, but show a little respect for the efforts others have put in to get this place to where it is.

Amen and amen.

To the OP, your enthusiasm is very premature. I was on a thread yesterday where the complaint was that something was deleted without notification.

Mark
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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by writeaway

let's face it, change can be very scary for many people. But change is the future. Can't stop it. Just be a part of it. We can all do our part to make WF even better instead of standing around and pining for the 'good old days.' The funny thing about the good old days is that they're only 'good' when filtered through nostalgia and frustrations with the present. Personally, I'd rather be excited about the FUTURE.

... who do you think you're talking to? A bunch of kindergarteners? The future is not a spooky, scawy pwace to be for most of us. What a future with freelancer ownership is an unknown. Numerous past acquisitions of freelancer are now nothing more than redirects to freelancer. There's also a story about Barrie mulling over a $400 million dollar sale of freelancer. So, you just go ahead and go RA RA RA ... Hooray! Freelancer is here, but I'll take the info that I've read and adopt the more cautious wait and see attitude.

If Allen Says and the moderators who worked with him for all these years hadn't built this property to be the huge success that it is, a company like freelancer would not have even been remotely interested in it.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

writeaway,

You've been here about 18 months. That's a pretty short-term perspective on the forum, considering how long some of the people commenting have been around.

When you joined, we had four active moderators handling the stuff that wasn't in sub-forums with their own mods. One was new and another (Ken) was only physically able to help on an occasional basis.

There are now 12 forum-wide mods. 6 very experienced members and 6 paid staff. When you triple the number of people handling it, you would expect the visible part of the mod process to improve, and it has.

It also helps that the system isn't constantly suffering server and database problems. That makes keeping up with the spam a lot easier.

A previous mod didn't seem to get it when I reported the old and tired 'question spam' technique.

There were two significant problems with your complaint on that. The first is that you pointed to examples that were uncertain at best, and gave no evidence there was anything going on other than new people asking questions. Nothing in the IP records or the posters' profiles suggested anything more sinister than that.

If you want to know the second, PM me. I'm not certain it would be appropriate to discuss it publicly.

Paul
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Alex Blades

12 years ago

Thank you, George.

Honestly, I think my role has been a bit overstated

Typical Paul Myers, always taking the humble road

I won't ask you to come back, because I know you are enjoying your freedom after all these years of moderating the WF, but everybody misses you chiming in on threads. When threads turn into flaming wars, you are the voice of reason to settle everyone down

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Kay,

You make a good point. Very few people who ask to do it end up doing it well.

Paul

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Lance K

12 years ago

Who are the new mods?

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Kay King

12 years ago

I don't think they're to be named - they are paid employees who had a lot of training from what I understand (and I could be wrong). I doubt those mods will be posting except to fulfill their dues by adding "notes from moderator" to some threads.

I think one of the best things the WF did over the years was make mods "invisible" by not clearly giving them the ID of "moderator". It eliminated at least some of the "suck up" factor

.

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Lance K

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't think they're to be named - they are paid employees who had a lot of training from what I understand (and I could be wrong). I doubt those mods will be posting except to fulfill their dues by adding "notes from moderator" to some threads.

I think one of the best things the WF did over the years was make mods "invisible" by not clearly giving them the ID of "moderator". It eliminated at least some of the "suck up" factor

.

Couldn't agree more. Just thought from the title of the OP maybe I missed some sort of official announcement.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Lance,

In addition to what Kay pointed out, there's the problem of people hounding them with questions and requests they're not yet ready to handle.

I have no idea what sort of training they're getting, but there are things you only learn through experience. Like "how to spot someone who's mod-shopping," and seeing past the one-sided claims and getting to the full story. They need to learn the patterns and read a lot of mod conversations before they get dumped into that stuff.

It's mostly not that complicated, but there are lots of pieces to it. Many of them are unique to this forum. Once you know they're there, it's largely just common sense. Takes time to get familiar with them, though. I'm sure some of the new mods will make themselves known when they're more comfortable with the landscape.

Paul
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- Steven Wagenheim 12 years ago
  
  It took me a very long time to "get" this but when it comes to moderating a forum, nobody said it better than Spock.
  
  "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
  
  When a moderator makes a decision, any decision, he has to look at it from the perspective of the entire membership and the good of the forum itself. That's why a lot of threads that would appear innocuous on the surface end up getting locked or deleted.
  
  For example, the one rule in OT is no politics or religion. Why? Because opinions on those two subjects are so strong and so varied that ultimately it almost always leads to people saying things to each other that are downright hurtful. So these discussions are not permitted. And yes, the members try to see how far they can bend this rule without crossing over the line. Some threads get through. Others don't. And because of that, some members have a problem understanding why thread A was deleted but thread B was allowed to stay.
  
  That's why I don't envy anybody moderating a forum, especially this forum. Not every decision is cut and dried. Sometimes there are very gray areas that could go either way. That's why some threads will be allowed to go on for an amount of time and then suddenly get axed, usually when things start to get out of hand. It's a fine balancing act and not something that's easy to do.
  
  I used to moderate at another forum and was terrible at it. I always let my personal feelings about a topic cloud my judgment. Many threads that maybe a great moderator would have let go on, I'd remove. I ruled with an iron fist and I think, in the long run, it might have hurt the forum. So I resigned and I vowed never to moderate another forum again. I just don't have what it takes to be truly impartial and think of the overall good like Spock would do.
  
  So the mods DO need to be commended for the work they do. And Paul does deserve a lot more credit than he gives himself. He made me take a good long hard look at myself many times without resorting to being rude or nasty. Always with his impeccable logic way of doing things. He's a tough guy to argue with.
  
  Everyday I try to be a better person than I was the day before. Recently, I had some setbacks where I behaved not as well as I should have. I have since made note of my shortcomings and am consciously trying to avoid falling back on old and bad habits.
  
  And if each of us does that (thinks about what's best for the forum) it will make the moderators' jobs a lot easier. I mean imagine if everybody here actually acted like adults and conducted themselves with some dignity.
  
  We might actually be able to reach a point where we could talk about religion and politics here.
  
  A guy can always dream, can't he?
  
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- lgibbon Banned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  I have no idea what sort of training they're getting, but there are things you only learn through experience.
  
  Well they've not spotted the junk poster on the main forum today at almost 100 posts
  so I don't hold out a lot of hope.
  
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travlinguy

12 years ago

On the surface things seem to be pretty much the same though I'm puzzled by a few things. For example, I've seen a couple of comments by Alasiter suggesting that he doesn't quite understand the issue with the icons. And the fact that nothing has been done to remedy it confirms it. This is it in a nutshell: If I scan the main board and don't recognize a thread in which I've posted I click away and do something else.

Many people do the same thing. Many. This results in a lack of participation. I'm not privy to forum stats but I'd guess they're down some. And what has happened to the banner ads? There are none. There used to be a waiting list to take out an ad.

Here's another thing I don't quite understand. WAMA & Growth Hacking. I think in another venue they'd be great. But this comes down to marketing 101. Who exactly does new management think populates this forum? Growth hacking isn't new, it's a seasoned concept with a different name. But that's not the point at all. The vast majority of active members here don't even know the difference between a major market and a niche. So why the hell would Freelancer be shoving some cutting edge concept at them?

They'd be better off with a new subforum about spinning articles and buying backlinks on fiverr. I'm not being facetious. That's what the members here would be interested in.

I'm long past lamenting the loss of a great forum that was once devoted to "where we talk about making money." Those days are gone and have been replaced with endless juvenile questions, many of which could be answered with a Google or forum search.

This place isn't invincible and without proper direction (to capitalize on the actual market that exists now) could easily fade into obscurity.

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Mark Singletary

12 years ago

About the mod anonymity, I agree. However, and this is a big however that I have brought up before, I think it was wonderful that we could build a "relationship" with Paul and Rod and others.

They are real people with real names and they understand what we are trying to do. They helped us not just by moderating but also by being a "friend", answering our questions, etc.

Especially Paul was very vocal and the "face" of the forum for many years. Allen hasn't been very public the last few years and Paul could help us understand what was going on, be the public referee, and made decisions we may not have agreed with more bearable. That was all because we knew who he was and whether we liked him or not we could count on him.

Now there is nothing even approaching that. They show up to post new WAMA guests but ignore many issues that have been repeatedly asked about. One thing I liked about Paul is he was man enough to tell you to take a hike but didn't pretend to be listening or interested if he wasn't.

Mark

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

About the mod anonymity, I agree. However, and this is a big however that I have brought up before, I think it was wonderful that we could build a "relationship" with Paul and Rod and others.
Mark

Yes, they were/are a friendly face and when reporting, we had an idea of who was reading the reports. I could keep my reports short and sweet, like just type in assmonkey and they'd know what I meant. lol. Now I feel like I have to be more polite and detailed.

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Lance K

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

About the mod anonymity, I agree. However, and this is a big however that I have brought up before, I think it was wonderful that we could build a "relationship" with Paul and Rod and others.

True. However, I just recently clued in to the fact that Rod is a moderator. Either he's been more transparent about it since Paul has moved on or I was just too dense to notice. I prefer to believe that Rod had previously been in ninja mode.

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"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
~ Zig Ziglar

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hardraysnight

12 years ago

i once reported a post

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These guys helped me with the feedback for my site

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