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My Blind Friend, And What That Means

by Claude Whitacre
121 replies
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I have a customer that has been blind from birth. He comes in my store about once a month, sometimes to shop, sometimes to just talk to me (he has a friend help him get around)

He and I share a love of science. And since he has been blind from birth, I asked him lots of questions, and we've tried to define some answers about what it means to be conscious, and how blindness affects awareness.

My showroom is 2400 square feet. One day I asked him if he could tell how big the room was, he was in. After asking it a few different ways, I discovered that he has no real point of reference. He know how long a foot is. But when I say 2,400 feet, he has no real way to picture that.

I asked him if he knew how tall I was. He guessed very well. He also guessed my age (within a few years) He has no concept of what a picture is. He has heard the word "photograph" but has no concept of what a two dimensional representation is.

My question, the reason I keep asking him these questions...Is he less conscious than a seeing person? His reasoning skills are perfectly intact. Everything is there, but the part of his brain that processes vision, isn't functioning.

He and I talked about deaf people. They have no inner monologue (deaf from birth, I mean). Other than pictures...how do they perceive the outside world? Are they as conscious as my blind friend? As I am? He asked me once how I knew that there were clouds in the sky. He also asked how I knew how far away they were. The second question, kind of threw me...because we can't really tell with the naked eye. (unless you have memorized the different kinds of clouds, I suppose)

One question actually upset him. I asked "When we tell you that we see someone 100 feet away, do you ever wonder how we know that person is there?".

It wasn't that I insulted him. It's that he had no way to really understand what I was talking about. I think he said something like "At 100 feet away, I can still hear them say hello".

If part of your brain is either missing, or non-functioning...how does that affect consciousness? If a mental patient has a lobotomy (severing the prefrontal cortex), are they now less conscious? less aware?

I've closely observed two stroke victims (one close friend, one relative). Part of them is gone. There is no other way to say it. But the part that remains...are they less conscious?

Is a genius more conscious that normal? Is a mentally handicapped person less conscious?

When you cut off an arm, you are still you. Still aware. How much of your brain can go missing, or become non-functional...until you start losing self awareness?

My blind friend cannot think the same way I do. Much of the way we process information is based on sight. I also visited his home. It's a very nicely furnished house, but it's very small. "Of course!" I thought. Easier to navigate. A wall is never more than several feet away.

Today, I watched a short TED talk on consciousness.
I thought it was worth sharing.
enjoy.

  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    I was talking to a totally blind friend of mine, expressing how amazed I was at his musical (piano) abilities and other things he was expert at.

    His reply, "I'm not handicapped by sight."

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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
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    I'm way too tired to be posting about anything, especially on a topic as deep as this, but I'll give it a go.

    My personal opinion is that a person who has some form of disability, such as deafness or blindness, is NOT less "conscious" (or spiritually awake, if you prefer) than a fully functioning person, although it may appear that way to a fully functioning individual. They interpret the world differently than we do, but they can still experience it. This difference in interpretation, however, creates a "language barrier", which makes it hard for a fully functioning person to understand a deaf person (as you've experienced, Claude). This can make one wonder if they're somehow "less aware" than what would be considered normal.

    But look at Helen Keller. She was both blind and deaf. In her time, most people would assume she was mentally retarded. But she was just as intelligent as any other human being; she just experienced the world differently.

    Look at this girl with autism: Girl with autism expresses profound intelligence. [VIDEO]

    Again, we see another example of a person who at first glance you would assume is only "half conscious", yet when she found the proper medium to express herself, she expressed a great deal of intelligence and awareness.

    I think that this perception of "lack of consciousness" among disabled persons is a result of differences of "brain languages", which causes massive amounts of miscommunication, which in turn leads to us wondering if they're "all in there."

    On an only semi-related note, my mom has taken sign language classes, and has learned a lot about the deaf community (I also have a deaf cousin). One interesting thing she learned is that when people started making cures for deafness, the deaf community was VERY offended. They're very proud of their disability, as they consider it an important part of their culture, heritage, and identity. As my mom's deaf teacher once said (regarding not being able to hear sound), "we don't know what we're missing, so we don't miss it." That's not an exact quote, but you get the idea.

    Personally, I think they would change their minds if they were exposed to things like music, but that's a different topic. The point is that they experience the world differently from us, but to them, it's normal. They don't view themselves as "less aware" than us.

    On the other hand, someone who has been "less aware" their entire lives probably wouldn't be aware of their inawareness, so it wouldn't bother them...okay, I'm losing "consciousness" myself. :p Time for a nap.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post

      I'm way too tired to be posting about anything, especially on a topic as deep as this, but I'll give it a go.

      My personal opinion is that a person who has some form of disability, such as deafness or blindness, is NOT less "conscious" (or spiritually awake, if you prefer) than a fully functioning person, although it may appear that way to a fully functioning individual. They interpret the world differently than we do, but they can still experience it. This difference in interpretation, however, creates a "language barrier", which makes it hard for a fully functioning person to understand a deaf person (as you've experienced, Claude). This can make one wonder if they're somehow "less aware" than what would be considered normal.

      But look at Helen Keller. She was both blind and deaf. In her time, most people would assume she was mentally retarded. But she was just as intelligent as any other human being; she just experienced the world differently.

      Look at this girl with autism: Girl with autism expresses profound intelligence. [VIDEO]

      Again, we see another example of a person who at first glance you would assume is only "half conscious", yet when she found the proper medium to express herself, she expressed a great deal of intelligence and awareness.

      I think that this perception of "lack of consciousness" among disabled persons is a result of differences of "brain languages", which causes massive amounts of miscommunication, which in turn leads to us wondering if they're "all in there."

      On an only semi-related note, my mom has taken sign language classes, and has learned a lot about the deaf community (I also have a deaf cousin). One interesting thing she learned is that when people started making cures for deafness, the deaf community was VERY offended. They're very proud of their disability, as they consider it an important part of their culture, heritage, and identity. As my mom's deaf teacher once said (regarding not being able to hear sound), "we don't know what we're missing, so we don't miss it." That's not an exact quote, but you get the idea.

      Personally, I think they would change their minds if they were exposed to things like music, but that's a different topic. The point is that they experience the world differently from us, but to them, it's normal. They don't view themselves as "less aware" than us.

      On the other hand, someone who has been "less aware" their entire lives probably wouldn't be aware of their inawareness, so it wouldn't bother them...okay, I'm losing "consciousness" myself. :p Time for a nap.
      I think that people who are blind or deaf have learned to live with it well - and don't like being seen as being handicapped. There are new procedures that give some deaf or blind sight or hearing for the first time in their lives. The people who are treated are extremely excited to be given the gift of a sense they don't have, even though they live quite well without that sense.

      I've watched videos of people who have surgery and have their first sight or hearing videoed. The response is always tears - shock, amazement, a little disorientation, and tears of extreme joy.

      They are not less because they perceive the world a tad differently than the rest of us -- but it is a wonderful experience for them when they receive that sense that they've not had before. You don't miss what you don't have - but the world becomes more dimensional with each additional sense you acquire.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    More conscious? No. Different form of perception. Just like time - we perceive it as linear, yet it's not linear. That's the only way we can perceive it.

    A dog can tell if someone is sick just by their smell. If the person is ill enough, we can see they are ill, or we know because we are told. We can't just walk up and sniff a person and say, OMG they are dying. So are we less conscious than the dog? The dog knows when another animal was around, but we can't tell unless we see it, it's tracks, or it's refuse -- a visual sign. Are we less conscious?

    You can teach your friend distance. Put each of his hands on each side of a ruler - that is a foot. Put the ruler down on the floor and put his feet so that they represent the closest measure to a foot as you can get them. For most men, the approximation is each foot is a foot (where the rough measurement came from) - then if he walks by putting his heal to the toe of each foot he can roughly measure distance. He knows already how many of his own steps it takes him to get from the couch to the bathroom - or to the refrigerator from the door or the room, etc and so forth, so you just have to show him how long a step he's taking for him to have reference. I'm surprised nobody has taught him this before.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      More conscious? No. Different form of perception. Just like time - we perceive it as linear, yet it's not linear. That's the only way we can perceive it.

      A dog can tell if someone is sick just by their smell. If the person is ill enough, we can see they are ill, or we know because we are told. We can't just walk up and sniff a person and say, OMG they are dying. So are we less conscious than the dog? The dog knows when another animal was around, but we can't tell unless we see it, it's tracks, or it's refuse -- a visual sign. Are we less conscious?
      Pretty darn good point, actually.


      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      You can teach your friend distance. Put each of his hands on each side of a ruler - that is a foot. Put the ruler down on the floor and put his feet so that they represent the closest measure to a foot as you can get them. For most men, the approximation is each foot is a foot (where the rough measurement came from) - then if he walks by putting his heal to the toe of each foot he can roughly measure distance. He knows already how many of his own steps it takes him to get from the couch to the bathroom - or to the refrigerator from the door or the room, etc and so forth, so you just have to show him how long a step he's taking for him to have reference. I'm surprised nobody has taught him this before.
      My friend understands distance, as you describe it. He knows, roughly, what 100 feet is.

      When I asked him how large he thought my store was, he had no idea. And when I said 2,400 square feet, it meant little to him...probably because he had no way to know how it was laid out. He had no idea how high the ceilings were.

      I was thinking one day, if I should ask him "When someone hands you a newspaper. Do you have any idea how we know what is written on it?". But I decided the answer might frustrate him....or anger him.


      Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post

      On an only semi-related note, my mom has taken sign language classes, and has learned a lot about the deaf community (I also have a deaf cousin). One interesting thing she learned is that when people started making cures for deafness, the deaf community was VERY offended. They're very proud of their disability, as they consider it an important part of their culture, heritage, and identity. As my mom's deaf teacher once said (regarding not being able to hear sound), "we don't know what we're missing, so we don't miss it." That's not an exact quote, but you get the idea.
      Interesting. I'm guessing that the people who have lost their hearing, don't feel the same way. I see how they have invested their lives with a certain way to communicate, a certain social interaction. Any change, in any direction, would be painful.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Both of my grandparents on my father's side were deaf from the time of birth. My grandmother was a very highly aware person. She had a greater understanding of most things, than anyone I've ever known. Like was said above, I think we inaccurately interpret a person's level of consciousness by comparing it to the level of communication we have with that person. I don't think there's a way to predict a person's level of consciousness without actually being inside of that person's brain.

    For instance from my earliest memories of my grandmother, I can remember thinking that she was not all there. She couldn't talk right, and when I tried to talk to her, she couldn't understand me. We didn't really live near my grandparents, we visited them maybe once every few years, so my dad never really bothered trying to teach us sign-language. I can remember one year checking out a sign-language book from the school library and teaching myself the alphabet. I thought, all I really need to do is memorize the alphabet, and then I can spell everything I was trying to say. That did not work out at all. What I didn't realize at the time was that our alphabet is based on phonetics. Meaning we sound out the letters in our head when we read a word. Someone that has been deaf their whole life has never heard words, so this doesn't make sense to them. Reading is a much harder task because they have to relate the way a word looks to an object. And words like "the" and "a" have no real meaning.

    Later I became more involved with other deaf people and learned ASL (American Sign Language) which is the language that most people that have been deaf their entire life use here in The United States. It's a beautiful and very direct language. You can express emotions using the hand gestures of ASL that are sometimes hard to express in English. But using ASL I was able to communicate with my grandmother, and thankfully I had several years of great communication with her before Alzheimer's set in. She was extremely smart and savvy.

    But communication changes perception.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Next time you see your friend, ask him, does he dream, if so is it just darkness with audio or is their any sort of imagery. Would be interested to hear about that. also, out of body type experiences. Vision and imagery if that was happening would be totally restored.

      Of course you know I would say that you are always whole, complete and perfect, because your true self has nothing to do with the body or brain. Your true consciousness is outside of it.

      Yet, you chose to inhabit it for the experience it brings, very impaired, slightly impaired, blinkered or completely functional. But why would you want it to be less than 100 percent functional? Because its a challenge!

      For blind people, to hear the world, smell and touch it without visual distraction

      For deaf people, to appreciate the visual beauty part, to see, smell and touch without noise distraction.

      For people with both, to feel and smell the world without any other distraction.

      Brain impaired, accident impaired comes under altered perceptions of the world, simplistic or otherwise. And experience say without a limb.

      Depending on where you live and in what time period will greatly effect your experience too. In some cases you would not live long, in others people and society would be more helpful.

      My wife's brother adopted a kid from Thailand who was deaf, dumb and nearly blind. He draws incredibly well with his tunnel vision. In his country though he would have been long dead.

      So there you are, A different perspective I'm sure you will disagree with but a different way of looking at it.

      The premise that true self, true consciousness is not really related to the body or brain, the body is a shell you need to occupy to fully experience this dimension and impairment lets you focus on specific aspects of it.

      All a big stage the world, love, tragedy, stress, pain, but no one really dies. One experiences.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Next time you see your friend, ask him, does he dream, if so is it just darkness with audio or is their any sort of imagery. Would be interested to hear about that. also, out of body type experiences. Vision and imagery if that was happening would be totally restored.
        I did ask once about how he dreamed. He said it was just about the same as how he is when he is awake, except it made less sense. I specifically asked if he had any version of images, when he dreamed. He was a little irritated by that question. He said something like "If I've never seen anything in my whole life, how could I see something in my dreams?" (or something close to that.)

        I'm not going to ask him about out of body experiences.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          That's something I wondered a long time ago.

          It seemed to me there were two forms of blindness when it comes to the experience of being blind.

          If you are born without sight - you have no frame of reference for activities or color or spatial relationships You can teach length and width but you can't teach the sense of cubic space. You have no reference for blue sky or stars. And yet because you never had it - there is nothing to miss.

          If you've had the experience of sight I think you would always be creating mental images even if your sight was gone. You can describe an activity or a person or a view to someone who had sight for part of his life and he will understand.

          To someone who has been blind since birth - the description won't make much sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      What I didn't realize at the time was that our alphabet is based on phonetics. Meaning we sound out the letters in our head when we read a word. Someone that has been deaf their whole life has never heard words, so this doesn't make sense to them. Reading is a much harder task because they have to relate the way a word looks to an object. And words like "the" and "a" have no real meaning.
      Wow. I had no idea. Probably a perspective that I'll never truly understand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Here's a short article I read recently that discusses how blind people dream:

    AOL.com Article - How people who are blind dream
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    I've been thinking about this non-stop since Claude posted the thread. There's one issue that I just can't figure out. I've gone 'round and 'round in my brain, but I just can't understand why all of Claude's friends aren't blind.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      I've been thinking about this non-stop since Claude posted the thread. There's one issue that I just can't figure out. I've gone 'round and 'round in my brain, but I just can't understand why all of Claude's friends aren't blind.
      What a great way to start my day! One of the most brilliantly crafted jabs I've ever read.


      Added later; I can also craft a brilliant sardonic jab....ahem...

      "Dan Riffle is a dumb poopy pants...who is...um..dumb....and he also poops in his pants"

      That's right, Mister! I can dish it out. Scared yet? You should be....because you're a poopy pants!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

      I've been thinking about this non-stop since Claude posted the thread. There's one issue that I just can't figure out. I've gone 'round and 'round in my brain, but I just can't understand why all of Claude's friends aren't blind.
      Dan, the answer to that is simple.

      In our world, we are only blinded by beauty.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Dan, the answer to that is simple.

        In our world, we are only blinded by beauty.
        Take That! Dan!

        Thank you Steven. I owe you one.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Take That! Dan!

          Thank you Steven. I owe you one.

          Claude, I think maybe, just maybe, you've misunderstood Wags.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Claude, I think maybe, just maybe, you've misunderstood Wags.
            Dan, don't poke the bear. You know what happens when you do that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

              Claude, I think maybe, just maybe, you've misunderstood Wags.
              You're right. I did.

              And by telling me that, you took me from the emotional high of "My God! I have a friend! I really do. That Steven is such a nice young man"...to "Riffle has corrupted another innocent mind. These evil tormentors are ganging up on me. Revenge will be swift!"

              Although, today...I don't sound all that swift.



              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Dan, don't poke the bear. You know what happens when you do that.

              Dammit. now I have two mortal enemies.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Dammit. I re-read Steven's post, and I now know that I have two mortal enemies.
                Dan, which one are you? Magneto or Dr Doom?
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Dan, which one are you? Magneto or Dr Doom?

                  Steven; You are Magneto. Riffle is The Toad.

                  I'm starting to feel better now.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Claude,

                I suppose the answer depends on how you define consciousness. If you read Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained," it's more a function of the way the data is processed than the sense that generates the data.

                Here's another thought for you... Is a person without any form of empathy conscious? They also lack something neurotypicals have. Or, yet another way, if someone has unusually acute senses (or even some additional method of perception that's not generally recognized) are they somehow more conscious than the rest of us?

                Or are they just conscious in a different state?

                If you go back to Jaynes' theories about the development of consciousness (the analog I and the metaphor me) being a result of trade between different social structures (notably language differences), it's entirely possible that huge chunks of people these days are not "conscious" by one standard. Granted, not one that's as accepted as it once was, but a definable standard nonetheless.

                I think the definition will evolve to something a bit less nebulous than the one in common use today. It will likely be more a matter of degree than of absolutes, and it will include a lot more than just the human species.


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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Claude,

                  I suppose the answer depends on how you define consciousness. If you read Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained," it's more a function of the way the data is processed than the sense that generates the data.
                  I've read it. And it shaped much of the way I look at consciousness/self awareness.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Here's another thought for you... Is a person without any form of empathy conscious? They also lack something neurotypicals have. Or, yet another way, if someone has unusually acute senses (or even some additional method of perception that's not generally recognized) are they somehow more conscious than the rest of us?

                  Or are they just conscious in a different state?

                  If you go back to Jaynes' theories about the development of consciousness (the analog I and the metaphor me) being a result of trade between different social structures (notably language differences), it's entirely possible that huge chunks of people these days are not "conscious" by one standard. Granted, not one that's as accepted as it once was, but a definable standard nonetheless.

                  I think the definition will evolve to something a bit less nebulous than the one in common use today. It will likely be more a matter of degree than of absolutes, and it will include a lot more than just the human species.


                  Paul
                  Paul; I just looked up Julian Jaynes. I wasn't familiar with his work. But I'll study it.

                  I agree that consciousness is probably a matter of degrees. Are Alzheimer sufferers less conscious as they get sicker?. I think so, but I don't know so. My mother suffered from a quick onset case, and she simply started losing pieces of herself, until she just wasn't there anymore.

                  I've done an extensive study of psychopathy. a friend, who used to have a psychiatry practice, and left to sell marketing programs for psychiatrists....told me once that I had psychopathic traits. He said that I was likely a "pro-social sociopath".

                  My perceptions are different from most people. Some concepts are understood, but not internalized. For example, the concept of being on a team...us against them...patriotism...are all things I think I understand intellectually, but have no idea what it feels like to engage these feelings. I have no sense of right and wrong. But I have a strong sense of fairness. I'm guessing that it's close to the same thing.

                  When I sold in people's homes for decades, I never felt rejection. And I never felt a thrill from making a sale. Other salespeople would tell me that I overcame my fear of rejection. But that wasn't true. I simply never felt rejection in the first place.

                  I process emotions through my frontal and parietal lobes. There is damage (or absence of function) in my temporal lobes. I found that out when I had a brain scan after suffering a string of seizures years ago.

                  I'm aware...and conscious. But I have no idea if it's the same way others are conscious.

                  And I have no idea what I'm missing. Like my blind friend.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Claude,

                    I'm not sure Jaynes would add much to your understanding of the subject at this point. Dennett and his contemporaries have moved things well beyond that stage.

                    It was revolutionary in the 70s. Not so much now.

                    I've met a few of what you call "pro-social sociopaths." One of them is among my favorite people to discuss things with. Brilliant fellow, and acutely aware of how different he is. He's also got a more thorough understanding of "neurotypical" motivations than almost anyone I know. His thinking is unclouded by any investment in his own ego.

                    Where he lacks is in the intuitive understanding that comes from familiarity. He can reason the states, but without experiencing them he's at something of a loss.

                    Probably in much the same way you describe. It's an intellectual understanding, but doesn't go beyond that.
                    My perceptions are different from most people.
                    That's probably true of all of us, Claude.

                    Example: I took a test that's often used as part of a diagnosis for Asperger's. The higher the score, the less native empathy one is believed to feel. The lower the score, the more of same. My score was so low I was considered at borderline risk for losing sight of my own motivations in sympathy with others.

                    It was pretty far outside the "norm."
                    And I have no idea what I'm missing.
                    I'm not convinced you're "missing" anything. You just experience some things differently.

                    I've had several girlfriends who were astonished to find that I just don't "get" jealousy. Intellectually I understand that it's a control issue, but emotionally I've never felt it. It's been something of a blind spot at times, but I suspect I'm better off without it. I've never seen it yield anything positive, at any rate.

                    Your sense of fairness is probably VERY close to a strong sense of right and wrong. In fact, it may be a more useful moral compass than those used by people whose definitions are based along other lines.

                    Your lack of feeling "rejection" may be part of your ability to close sales. The salespeople I've known who failed the quickest were the people (usually men) who felt rejection and fought it. That contentiousness raised defenses in the prospect and led to all sorts of pushback.

                    We're all different. I don't think any of us experiences the world in quite the same way as anyone else.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Your lack of feleing "rejection" may be part of your ability to close sales.




                      Paul
                      Paul,

                      Your first spelling of "feleing" left me releing!

                      Thanks for fixing that, I'm once again on stable ground. ; ) =P


                      Terra
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Terra,
                        Your first spelling of "feleing" left me releing!

                        Thanks for fixing that, I'm once again on stable ground. ; ) =P
                        Are you SURE you want to lay claim to any sort of stability, ma'am?


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                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Terra,Are you SURE you want to lay claim to any sort of stability, ma'am?


                          Paul


                          That's what hubby always asks me, except he uses "honey" instead of ma'am.


                          Terra
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            except he uses "honey"
                            Paging Dan Riffle to aisle OT... Riffle to OT.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Paging Dan Riffle to aisle OT... Riffle to OT.

                              Umm, I don't get it. I mean why what I said would need a Riffle...


                              Terra
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                Umm, I don't get it. I mean why what I said would need a Riffle...


                                Terra
                                Everybody needs a riffle if they're going to shoot possum.
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                                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                  Everybody needs a riffle if they're going to shoot possum.
                                  Did you just call Paul a possum? Hee, hee!


                                  Terra
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                    Terra,
                                    Did you just call Paul a possum?
                                    I've been called worse. Not today, yet, but it's still early.


                                    Paul
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                      added a tad later;
                                      I even looked it up. Let's put this nonsense to rest, OK?

                                      Scientific America.
                                      Do People Only Use 10 Percent of Their Brains? - Scientific American

                                      This tells of the origin of the myth.
                                      Ten percent of brain myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                      Nice try. You probably educated a few people here, and that will have a ripple effect, but the myth will persist. I've known it was a myth for many years, but the problem is, more people are spreading the myth than there are debunking it, so it ain't going anywhere soon.

                                      Moving on...

                                      I used to have a deaf guy on my dart team. Once I asked him if he could feel the thunder rumble in his gut like I could. He couldn't, and I somehow found that almost as sad as him being deaf. If you don't love the thunder like I do you may not understand that.

                                      PS - Isn't "pro-social sociopaths" an oxymoron? Methinks you need a better term. Crazy might do it. Crazy Claude. Yup. I'm all in on that one.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                        Dennis,
                                        Isn't "pro-social sociopaths" an oxymoron?
                                        Nope. It's not common, but it's a genuinely profound thing when you get the chance to understand it.

                                        Remind me one day and I'll dig out the links to a few blog posts from my friend seebs, where he explains this from his own perspective. On my best day I don't have the writing chops to say it like he does.

                                        You can find some of his general writings here: Seebs Exhibit 7

                                        His thoughts on autism are especially worthwhile reading from that site.


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                                        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                          Dennis,Nope. It's not common, but it's a genuinely profound thing when you get the chance to understand it.
                                          I was half joking so I could call Claude crazy, but as long you replied...

                                          Are we operating with the same definition of a sociopath?
                                          sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
                                          Maybe I'm dense, but "pro-social" and "antisocial" contradict each other in my mind, so I don't get what a pro-social sociopath would be.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                            Dennis,

                                            "Anti-social" in that case means something closer to "without emotional regard for social conventions" than "actively disruptive/destructive of social conventions."

                                            When you discuss anything along the lines of autism spectrum 'disorders,' definitions are hazy at best. They are invariably biased based on the writer's own ideas about what is good and bad. Or normal (neurotypical) vs "abnormal."

                                            Talk to a few highly intelligent and high-functioning autistics and you'll start to get a notion of just how biased and screwed up those definitions are.

                                            It's all sorts of institutionalized scary.


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                                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                              Dennis,

                                              "Anti-social" in that case means something closer to "without emotional regard for social conventions" than "actively disruptive/destructive of social conventions."
                                              Yes, very true. (I can only speak for myself)
                                              Someone's position doesn't mean anything to me, other than the pragmatic effects.
                                              The words "socially acceptable" and "proper"..I think are funny, even though I eventually discovered that behaving certain ways was more beneficial, and make life easier.

                                              The idea of "hurting someone's feelings" is pretty nebulous to me. I see the results, and feel bad after I've hurt someone's feelings. But I still have trouble understanding how someone could have their feelings hurt in the first place.

                                              I grew up very quiet and reserved. Not because I was afraid to talk to people, but I found their behavior confusing. In junior high school, a boy pulled my chair out from under me as I sat down. Everyone laughed. So did I. So, I waited for the girl next to me to sit down, and I pulled the chair out from under her. Of course, nobody laughed. people were yelling at me. I went to the principle's office. I spent the whole day trying to figure out why it was funny when it happened to me, but not her. It took years, before I worked it out.

                                              It was who was pulling the chair. And...who was in the chair.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                        Nice try. You probably educated a few people here, and that will have a ripple effect, but the myth will persist. I've known it was a myth for many years, but the problem is, more people are spreading the myth than there are debunking it, so it ain't going anywhere soon.

                                        Moving on...

                                        I used to have a deaf guy on my dart team. Once I asked him if he could feel the thunder rumble in his gut like I could. He couldn't, and I somehow found that almost as sad as him being deaf. If you don't love the thunder like I do you may not understand that.

                                        PS - Isn't "pro-social sociopaths" an oxymoron? Methinks you need a better term. Crazy might do it. Crazy Claude. Yup. I'm all in on that one.
                                        I only use 10 percent of Claude's brain.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                          I only use 10 percent of Claude's brain.
                                          That's a near-perfect set up, but it's too easy for me. I'll let Riffle have it.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                            That's a near-perfect set up, but it's too easy for me. I'll let Riffle have it.
                                            No, no, I insist.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                              I only use 10 percent of Claude's brain.
                                              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                              That's a near-perfect set up, but it's too easy for me. I'll let Riffle have it.
                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                              No, no, I insist.
                                              Since you insist... that's more than he uses of it.

                                              Ba-da-boom!

                                              Sorry Claude, Riffle made me do it.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                I only use 10 percent of Claude's brain.
                                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                That's a near-perfect set up, but it's too easy for me. I'll let Riffle have it.
                                                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                No, no, I insist.
                                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                Since you insist... that's more than he uses of it.

                                                Ba-da-boom!

                                                Sorry Claude, Riffle made me do it.
                                                10% is pretty good, when you consider that it takes 7% just to trade jabs with you guys.

                                                That only leaves 3% to ponder the universe.

                                                But I have a huge brain. Have you guys seen my forehead? I'm resting my chin on a candle holder right now, as I type this, to keep my head from flopping over and causing me to fall out of my chair.

                                                But, do you guys care? No! My feelings mean nothing to you. My imaginary friends would never treat me as meanly as you guys.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                  Massive presidential brain, one of my favourites

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                                                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                  10% is pretty good, when you consider that it takes 7% just to trade jabs with you guys.

                                                  That only leaves 3% to ponder the universe.

                                                  But I have a huge brain. Have you guys seen my forehead? I'm resting my chin on a candle holder right now, as I type this, to keep my head from flopping over and causing me to fall out of my chair.
                                                  Hopefully, part of that 3% told you to put the candle out first this time.


                                                  But, do you guys care? No! My feelings mean nothing to you. My imaginary friends would never treat me as meanly as you guys.
                                                  I'm guessing all of your friends are imaginary.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                                    Hopefully, part of that 3% told you to put the candle out first this time.
                                                    Riffle once asked me if I was growing a goatee. I had to confess that it was just soot from the candle holder, holding up my head. I forgot to read the instructions where it tells you to put out the candle...before you rest your chin on it.

                                                    Life is so complicated.




                                                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


                                                    I'm guessing all of your friends are imaginary.
                                                    You are sounding way way too much like Riffle.

                                                    My friends are all imaginary...and blind. You can't be too careful....Now they can't testify against me, or pick me out of a line up.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                  10% is pretty good, when you consider that it takes 7% just to trade jabs with you guys.

                                                  That only leaves 3% to ponder the universe.

                                                  But I have a huge brain. Have you guys seen my forehead? I'm resting my chin on a candle holder right now, as I type this, to keep my head from flopping over and causing me to fall out of my chair.

                                                  But, do you guys care? No! My feelings mean nothing to you. My imaginary friends would never treat me as meanly as you guys.
                                                  "One must not confuse brain density with bone density"

                                                  But seriously, have you ever had an IQ test? ( I was going to once but could not find my way to the testing center) It should be quite high as you exhibit traits that would suggest it.

                                                  A guy at my work had a Masters Degree and was a systems annalist manager and a master cabinet maker amongst other things. He confided that his IQ was measured at 193, higher than Eisenstein s. He said he saw problems to solve in front of him in 3 dimensions. Yet, he had none of the social traits. that were detrimental to social settings. He was very funny, sharp witted and personable. I asked him why he had not persued science or solving the problems of the world. He said he had no motivation to do so, he liked to make things and solve problems on his own terms! He liked doing lots of things and was one of these annoying guys who could turn his hand to anything with his mind. But only if he was interested.

                                                  He went to play in a large poker tournament and came 4th returning with $14,000 for a weekends work. Poker of course is still luck of the draw, but, he could read people and played it to his best advantage. he knew it inside out. I said why not make a living just doing that, no, I would get bored doing nothing, he said.

                                                  I am inherently lazy but show a modicum of intellegence (sometimes) when I need to solve a problem. I rarely seek to understand it fully (the hows and whys), just want to solve it. I just approach things differently. Like when my friend tells me her a sob sob story about her dealings with Comcast and the remote control her grand-kids broke. Comcast send her an un-programmed new one (so was stuck on a adult cartoon channel) and arrange several appointments to get it going which they never kept and even with her following explicit instructions to programming it over the phone it never worked. They were not stupid, they were following directions.

                                                  So I just pick up an I-Pad, type in the model number of the remote and the receiver with a few other words like how to program and Boom, up comes a forum with the exact answer. It works first time. So I am sought out to solve problems like this.

                                                  Does this mean I am intellegent with a high IQ. Not really, just means I will look for an answer to distraction and just about all of them are already out there and available and I have enough savvy to go out their and find them.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    "One must not confuse brain density with bone density"
                                                    My brain isn't dense. It's fluffy, like a cloud. It's the only reason I float in water.

                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    But seriously, have you ever had an IQ test? ( I was going to once but could not find my way to the testing center) It should be quite high as you exhibit traits that would suggest it.
                                                    I've had 2 complete IQ tests. One in high school, and one when applying for a job at an insurance company. Both showed the same thing. A dull normal IQ (90-95) in every section except one. The raw cognition of recognizing patterns and continuing sequences. What many would call symbolic logic. I score exceptionally high in that one area. I only remember one score of 180. But it was in that one aptitude. So yeah, extremely intelligent, when measured in that one specific attribute. But my other scores brought my average IQ down to (I think) 116 or so. Bright normal.


                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    A guy at my work had a Masters Degree and was a systems annalist manager and a master cabinet maker amongst other things. He confided that his IQ was measured at 193, higher than Eisenstein s. He said he saw problems to solve in front of him in 3 dimensions. Yet, he had none of the social traits. that were detrimental to social settings. He was very funny, sharp witted and personable. I asked him why he had not persued science or solving the problems of the world. He said he had no motivation to do so, he liked to make things and solve problems on his own terms! He liked doing lots of things and was one of these annoying guys who could turn his hand to anything with his mind. But only if he was interested.
                                                    Yeah, for some reason, genius and ambition many times don't combine. My impression (not researched at all) is that if you are exceptionally bright, you get in the habit of putting forth a minimal effort, because that's all that's needed. And people with sharp social skills early in life, aren't compensating for anything. They don't have to get in the habit of trying hard.

                                                    It's why (I think) naturally strong men, don't immerse themselves in martial arts, or power lifting. There is no need. They lack the motivation. But that's just a guess.


                                                    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                    So I just pick up an I-Pad, type in the model number of the remote and the receiver with a few other words like how to program and Boom, up comes a forum with the exact answer. It works first time. So I am sought out to solve problems like this.

                                                    Does this mean I am intellegent with a high IQ. Not really, just means I will look for an answer to distraction and just about all of them are already out there and available and I have enough savvy to go out their and find them.
                                                    You show an above average intelligence. You certainly are gifted at telling good stories. And humor is about the most complex thing your brain can produce. I know you're waiting for the punchline. But not this time.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                                                      On the theme of this thread, an insightful article posted today . . .

                                                      Blindness and bereavement
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                      "You show an above average intelligence. You certainly are gifted at telling good stories. And humor is about the most complex thing your brain can produce. I know you're waiting for the punchline. But not this time."

                                                      There you are. I have not even figured out how to do selective quotes yet.

                                                      Perhaps, just perhaps you (and perhaps me a little) are a little more intelligent now than than you were when you were tested which seems like a long time ago. Before senility sets in (not meant in a derogatory way) you should test again.

                                                      I'm saying this because you have stimulated your brain by having read and absorbed a lot of knowledge and it may lead to building more grey matter in your brain and more connections forged. You have learned to write well, written books etc. Stimulation may have improved your mind and it's processing and cognitive power.

                                                      When I discovered email in 1998 I had the writing skills of a 13 year old. Now I estimate it to be at least that of a 14 and a half year old. Practice makes better. I am appalling at spelling though, thank Bill Gates for highlight and right click. Taking short cuts again but know it's available

                                                      Perhaps writing comedic stories and scripts should have been something I should have per-sued but never tried it until now, late in life. You live and learn, literally.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                        Perhaps, just perhaps you (and perhaps me a little) are a little more intelligent now than than you were when you were tested which seems like a long time ago. Before senility sets in (not meant in a derogatory way) you should test again.

                                                        I'm saying this because you have stimulated your brain by having read and absorbed a lot of knowledge and it may lead to building more grey matter in your brain and more connections forged. You have learned to write well, written books etc. Stimulation may have improved your mind and it's processing and cognitive power.
                                                        .
                                                        Maybe. We can all gain abilities through effort. I don't know if that's the same as increasing intelligence.

                                                        I read about a boy that had severe physical disabilities. I believe he had cerebral palsy. His father hired a personal trainer. And every day, the boy tried to exercise. Eventually, he could do one push up. That was a huge milestone. Then he could do 100, then 1,000.

                                                        The boy became a star athlete. The father once asked the trainer "How long will he have to do these exercises?" and the trainer said "The rest of his life, every day, or he'll quickly return to the way he was".

                                                        I read this story long ago...and I wondered."What if someone, without a disability, did the same thing...what could he accomplish? What about someone with physical gifts?"

                                                        When I was studying Kung Fu, there was a guy in my class, that was exceptional. I noticed, though, that the grip of his right hand wasn't as strong as his left. I asked him if he had problems with his right hand...maybe arthritis.

                                                        He took me to one of the walls, that had old photos of students. There he was...a photo of him when he started.....frail, crippled on his right side. His arm tight against his side. He couldn't make a fist, or pick anything up with his right hand.

                                                        10 years of hard training, daily effort.....And now, he was very powerful, very fast..just a little weaker in his grip. His will was stronger than his disability. But he knew, that if he just stopped, it would return, slowly to the way it was.

                                                        I assume it works that way with the brain.

                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                        .
                                                        With all our banter, I wouldn't be the least surprised if you actually received such a pm.
                                                        Nope. But if I did, I'd think it was hilarious. Sometimes I wonder if new people, reading our posts, know that we are kidding.
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                          Dan; Let me explain how this works. When you type something in parentheses...it isn't like whispering. I can still read it. If you want to type something that I can't read, type smaller.

                                                          And I loved your equation. You have the mind of Stephen Hawking, and the sexual charisma.

                                                          Funny you should bring that up. I got a PM from someone here that said "Dan Riffle is a low life troll. He isn't fit to kiss your butt".

                                                          And I defended, my good friend Dan. I said "Yes, he is fit to kiss my butt".

                                                          So, I defended Dan, and restored his good name.

                                                          I will be rewarded in Heaven.
                                                          hmmmm, more milk and cookies late at night, and less,.....hmmm.....online educational material?

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                                                        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                          Maybe. We can all gain abilities through effort. I don't know if that's the same as increasing intelligence.

                                                          I read about a boy that had severe physical disabilities. I believe he had cerebral palsy. His father hired a personal trainer. And every day, the boy tried to exercise. Eventually, he could do one push up. That was a huge milestone. Then he could do 100, then 1,000.

                                                          The boy became a star athlete. The father once asked the trainer "How long will he have to do these exercises?" and the trainer said "The rest of his life, every day, or he'll quickly return to the way he was".

                                                          I read this story long ago...and I wondered."What if someone, without a disability, did the same thing...what could he accomplish? What about someone with physical gifts?"

                                                          When I was studying Kung Fu, there was a guy in my class, that was exceptional. I noticed, though, that the grip of his right hand wasn't as strong as his left. I asked him if he had problems with his right hand...maybe arthritis.

                                                          He took me to one of the walls, that had old photos of students. There he was...a photo of him when he started.....frail, crippled on his right side. His arm tight against his side. He couldn't make a fist, or pick anything up with his right hand.

                                                          10 years of hard training, daily effort.....And now, he was very powerful, very fast..just a little weaker in his grip. His will was stronger than his disability. But he knew, that if he just stopped, it would return, slowly to the way it was.

                                                          I assume it works that way with the brain.



                                                          Nope. But if I did, I'd think it was hilarious. Sometimes I wonder if new people, reading our posts, know that we are kidding.
                                                          I told you about the wife and the Japanese health firm Nikken. In her training meetings quite a few of the people there used the supplements, many had the same condition your friend did, yet as long as they took them it freed them up. At one point there was a shortage of one called Joint. People were getting a little frantic as there arms and hands were returning to there clawed up like status.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      And humor is about the most complex thing your brain can produce. I know you're waiting for the punchline. But not this time.

                                                      Humor = Intelligence
                                                      Story + Punchline = Humor
                                                      Claude - punchline \= Humor

                                                      Ergo:

                                                      Claude \= Intelligence
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                        Humor = Intelligence
                                                        Story + Punchline = Humor
                                                        Claude - punchline = Humor

                                                        Ergo:

                                                        Claude = Intelligent

                                                        Pythagoras will be turning in his grave.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                        Humor = Intelligence
                                                        Story + Punchline = Humor
                                                        Claude - punchline = Humor

                                                        Ergo:

                                                        Claude = Intelligent
                                                        Hawkins at it again!

                                                        PS. I like how our quotes of Dan's post has left out the back slash. That's it. The WF's new thing. Turning insults into compliments
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                        Humor = Intelligence
                                                        Story + Punchline = Humor
                                                        Claude - punchline = Humor

                                                        Ergo:

                                                        Claude = Intelligence
                                                        Time to look up Modus ponens structure of invalid argument structure. Simple structure for a simple...........uh..........never mind.
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                                          Time to look up Modus ponens structure of invalid argument structure. Simple structure for a simple...........uh..........never mind.

                                                          Yep, I knew it was a stretch. I was going more for the insult than a proper solvable equation. (Besides, Claude won't know the difference.)
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                                            I wonder if anyone has ever mistaken Claude's head for a lightbulb with a bad toupee or an excessive amount of dust from being in the closet for so long?

                                                            Sorry Claude, but you DID mention your big head.
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                            Yep, I knew it was a stretch. I was going more for the insult than a proper solvable equation. (Besides, Claude won't know the difference.)
                                                            Dan; Let me explain how this works. When you type something in parentheses...it isn't like whispering. I can still read it. If you want to type something that I can't read, type smaller.

                                                            And I loved your equation. You have the mind of Stephen Hawking, and the sexual charisma.


                                                            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                                                            Hawkins at it again!

                                                            PS. I like how our quotes of Dan's post has left out the back slash. That's it. The WF's new thing. Turning insults into compliments
                                                            Funny you should bring that up. I got a PM from someone here that said "Dan Riffle is a low life troll. He isn't fit to kiss your butt".

                                                            And I defended, my good friend Dan. I said "Yes, he is fit to kiss my butt".

                                                            So, I defended Dan, and restored his good name.

                                                            I will be rewarded in Heaven.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                              Dan; Let me explain how this works. When you type something in parentheses...it isn't like whispering. I can still read it. If you want to type something that I can't read, type smaller.

                                                              And I loved your equation. You have the mind of Stephen Hawking, and the sexual charisma.
                                                              Hey, I'm just amazed that you can read, let alone follow grammar and syntax. Seriously, I'm proud of the strides you've made.


                                                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                              I got a PM from someone here that said "Dan Riffle is a low life troll. He isn't fit to kiss your butt".
                                                              With all our banter, I wouldn't be the least surprised if you actually received such a pm.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                                              Funny you should bring that up. I got a PM from someone here that said "Dan Riffle is a low life troll. He isn't fit to kiss your butt".

                                                              And I defended, my good friend Dan. I said "Yes, he is fit to kiss my butt".

                                                              So, I defended Dan, and restored his good name.

                                                              I will be rewarded in Heaven.


                                                              Claude, that was supposed to be just between you and I. You know, the private part of private message!

                                                              But I must let you know that Dan isn't really kissing your butt, he's just inhaling your flatulence fumes to better his health.

                                                              It just feels like he's kissing it, that, or your butt doesn't know the difference between lips and a nose.



                                                              Terra
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post



                                                                Claude, that was supposed to be just between you and I. You know, the private part of private message!

                                                                But I must let you know that Dan isn't really kissing your butt, he's just inhaling your flatulence fumes to better his health.

                                                                It just feels like he's kissing it, that, or your butt doesn't know the difference between lips and a nose.



                                                                Terra
                                                                Terra; It wasn't his nose. And I'm still having nightmares about it.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                  Terra; It wasn't his nose. And I'm still having nightmares about it.
                                                                  It worked! It really worked!

                                                                  I was sending you a subliminal message in my post:

                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK


                                                                  Claude, that was supposed to be just between you and I. You know, the private part of private message!

                                                                  But I must let you know that Dan isn't really kissing your butt, he's just inhaling your flatulence fumes to better his health.

                                                                  It just feels like he's kissing it, that, or your butt doesn't know the difference between lips anda nose.



                                                                  Terra
                                                                  I'm just a little confused as to why you thought of Dan's, first thing.




                                                                  Terra
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                    It worked! It really worked!

                                                                    I was sending you a subliminal message in my post:

                                                                    I'm just a little confused as to why you thought of Dan's, first thing.




                                                                    Terra
                                                                    Terra; You are an evil seductive woman.
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                      Terra; You are an evil seductive woman.
                                                                      No, I'm not. Really.

                                                                      Riffle hacked my account and posted that. Seriously!


                                                                      Terra
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                                                                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                        No, I'm not. Really.

                                                                        Riffle hacked my account and posted that. Seriously!


                                                                        Terra
                                                                        So, you're saying I'm an evil, seductive man?
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                                                                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                          So, you're saying I'm an evil, seductive man?
                                                                          Okay, sure! Why not?

                                                                          Are you down with that?


                                                                          Terra
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                                                                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                            Okay, sure! Why not?

                                                                            Are you down with that?


                                                                            Terra
                                                                            Depends. Is that more subliminal programming?
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                                                                            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                              Depends. Is that more subliminal programming?
                                                                              Haha! No, I'm done with subliminal messages. They seem to get me in a sticky spot.

                                                                              But if you insist, I can change it. Are you up for that?

                                                                              Better? Haha!


                                                                              Terra
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                                                                              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                Haha! No, I'm done with subliminal messages. They seem to get me in a spot.

                                                                                But if you insist, I can change it. Are you up for that?

                                                                                Better? Haha!


                                                                                Terra
                                                                                <carefully choosing words...>

                                                                                <grits teeth>

                                                                                Nope. Can't do it. You've laid open too easy a shot.
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                                                                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                  Okay, sure! Why not?

                                                                                  Are you down with that?


                                                                                  Terra
                                                                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                  Depends. Is that more subliminal programming?
                                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                  Haha! No, I'm done with subliminal messages. They seem to get me in a sticky spot.

                                                                                  But if you insist, I can change it. Are you up for that?

                                                                                  Better? Haha!


                                                                                  Terra
                                                                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                  <carefully choosing words...>

                                                                                  <grits teeth>

                                                                                  Nope. Can't do it. You've laid open too easy a shot.
                                                                                  I love it.

                                                                                  Dan; Impressive self control. Probably funnier than anything you could say directly (and I know you know that)

                                                                                  Terra: What the heck are you doing, woman?! Are you trying to kill Riffle?

                                                                                  (Because, if you are...I want in)
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                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                    I love it.

                                                                                    Dan; Impressive self control. Probably funnier than anything you could say directly (and I know you know that)

                                                                                    Terra: What the heck are you doing, woman?! Are you trying to kill Riffle?

                                                                                    (Because, if you are...I want in)

                                                                                    OMG!

                                                                                    I can't believe that you two can find that sort of innuendo in everything I write!

                                                                                    Suppose I wrote a nursery rhyme, would you taint that with your way of thinking too?

                                                                                    Let's see?

                                                                                    Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John
                                                                                    Went to bed with his stockings on.
                                                                                    One shoe off and one shoe on,
                                                                                    Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John.

                                                                                    Or,

                                                                                    Ring around the rosies,
                                                                                    pocket full of posies,
                                                                                    ashes, ashes, we all fall down.

                                                                                    Or how about,

                                                                                    Little Jack Horner
                                                                                    sat in a corner,
                                                                                    eating his Christmas pie.
                                                                                    He stuck in his thumb,
                                                                                    pulled out a plum,
                                                                                    and said what a good boy am I!

                                                                                    What about,

                                                                                    Baa baa black sheep,
                                                                                    Have you any wool?
                                                                                    Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.
                                                                                    One for my master, one for my dame,
                                                                                    One for the little boy who lives down the lane.

                                                                                    Or even,

                                                                                    Three blind mice, three blind mice,
                                                                                    See how they run, see how they run,
                                                                                    They all ran after the farmer's wife,
                                                                                    Who cut off their tails with a carving knife,
                                                                                    Did you ever see such a thing in your life,
                                                                                    As three blind mice?

                                                                                    Go ahead, decimate my childhood memories ya big meanies!


                                                                                    Terra
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                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                                                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                      OMG!

                                                                                      I can't believe that you two can find that sort of innuendo in everything I write!

                                                                                      Suppose I wrote a nursery rhyme, would you taint that with your way of thinking too?

                                                                                      Let's see?

                                                                                      Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John
                                                                                      Went to bed with his stockings on.
                                                                                      One shoe off and one shoe on,
                                                                                      Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John.

                                                                                      Or,

                                                                                      Ring around the rosies,
                                                                                      pocket full of posies,
                                                                                      ashes, ashes, we all fall down.

                                                                                      Or how about,

                                                                                      Little Jack Horner
                                                                                      sat in a corner,
                                                                                      eating his Christmas pie.
                                                                                      He stuck in his thumb,
                                                                                      pulled out a plum,
                                                                                      and said what a good boy am I!

                                                                                      What about,

                                                                                      Baa baa black sheep,
                                                                                      Have you any wool?
                                                                                      Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.
                                                                                      One for my master, one for my dame,
                                                                                      One for the little boy who lives down the lane.

                                                                                      Or even,

                                                                                      Three blind mice, three blind mice,
                                                                                      See how they run, see how they run,
                                                                                      They all ran after the farmer's wife,
                                                                                      Who cut off their tails with a carving knife,
                                                                                      Did you ever see such a thing in your life,
                                                                                      As three blind mice?

                                                                                      Go ahead, decimate my childhood memories ya big meanies!


                                                                                      Terra
                                                                                      In the words of Andrew Dice Clay, "Hickory dickory dock...".
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                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                      Suppose I wrote a nursery rhyme, would you taint that with your way of thinking too?
                                                                                      Come now, Terra. Surely you jest.
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                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                        Come now, Terra. Surely you jest.
                                                                                        .........
                                                                                        That one really caught me by surprise. And I didn't even see it until you just posted it.


                                                                                        Terra:

                                                                                        It's not that you say things that are suggestive. But you keep posting sentences with words and phrases, that can be taken out of context. And that's Riffle's purpose in life.

                                                                                        That, and insult me.
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                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                          .........
                                                                                          That one really caught me by surprise. And I didn't even see it until you just posted it.
                                                                                          You expected to see it before I posted it?
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                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                        Come now, Terra. Surely you jest.
                                                                                        Umm, no, I don't.


                                                                                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                        .........
                                                                                        That one really caught me by surprise. And I didn't even see it until you just posted it.


                                                                                        Terra:

                                                                                        It's not that you say things that are suggestive. But you keep posting sentences with words and phrases, that can be taken out of context. And that's Riffle's purpose in life.

                                                                                        That, and insult me.
                                                                                        Huh? I must be missing something.

                                                                                        Anyway, if those are his purposes in life, he's pegged them, lol!


                                                                                        Terra
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                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                          he's pegged them, lol!
                                                                                          Whoa, easy there, Terra. You're going down the wrong alley with that one.
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                                                                                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                            Whoa, easy there, Terra. You're going down the wrong alley with that one.
                                                                                            Sighs and holds hands up in surrender while sadly shaking head and sighs again.


                                                                                            Terra
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                                                                                            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                              Sighs and holds hands up in surrender while sadly shaking head and sighs again.


                                                                                              Terra
                                                                                              LOL..............
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                                                                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                Sighs and holds hands up in surrender while sadly shaking head and sighs again.


                                                                                                Terra

                                                                                                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                                LOL..............
                                                                                                You're right, like fish in a shot glass.
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                                                                                                • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                                                                                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                                                                                                  OMG!

                                                                                                  I can't believe that you two can find that sort of innuendo in everything I write!

                                                                                                  Suppose I wrote a nursery rhyme, would you taint that with your way of thinking too?

                                                                                                  Let's see?

                                                                                                  Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John
                                                                                                  Went to bed with his stockings on.
                                                                                                  One shoe off and one shoe on,
                                                                                                  Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John.

                                                                                                  Or,

                                                                                                  Ring around the rosies,
                                                                                                  pocket full of posies,
                                                                                                  ashes, ashes, we all fall down.

                                                                                                  Or how about,

                                                                                                  Little Jack Horner
                                                                                                  sat in a corner,
                                                                                                  eating his Christmas pie.
                                                                                                  He stuck in his thumb,
                                                                                                  pulled out a plum,
                                                                                                  and said what a good boy am I!

                                                                                                  What about,

                                                                                                  Baa baa black sheep,
                                                                                                  Have you any wool?
                                                                                                  Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.
                                                                                                  One for my master, one for my dame,
                                                                                                  One for the little boy who lives down the lane.

                                                                                                  Or even,

                                                                                                  Three blind mice, three blind mice,
                                                                                                  See how they run, see how they run,
                                                                                                  They all ran after the farmer's wife,
                                                                                                  Who cut off their tails with a carving knife,
                                                                                                  Did you ever see such a thing in your life,
                                                                                                  As three blind mice?

                                                                                                  Go ahead, decimate my childhood memories ya big meanies!


                                                                                                  Terra
                                                                                                  Hmmm, Baa Baa Black Sheep, might have racist connotations, and Three Blind Mice, was used in a Bond movie, so there might be copyright issues for the singing, verbal version!

                                                                                                  Ok, just wanted to put these on a solid legal footing, before Claude and Dan have there fun!

                                                                                                  Jack and Jill, have workplace and safety issues, and Hansel and Gretyl, have child abduction and cannibalism concerns

                                                                                                  I won't mention Little Red Riding Hood, and the 3 bears, might get the thread closed down?

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                                                                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                                    Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                                                                                                    I won't mention Little Red Riding Hood, and the 3 bears, might get the thread closed down?
                                                                                                    Yes, when I was a young child, my favorite story was "Little Red Riding Hood...And The Three Bears"


                                                                                                    How does that end, again?
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                                                                                                    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                                                                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                      Yes, when I was a young child, my favorite story was "Little Red Riding Hood...And The Three Bears"


                                                                                                      How does that end, again?
                                                                                                      Riffle's version didn't end well.
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                                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                                                                                        Riffle's version didn't end well.
                                                                                                        Absolutely, unequivocally, no comment.
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                                                                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                                                        Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                                                                                        Riffle's version didn't end well.
                                                                                                        Only a few people will get that, but very nicely done.

                                                                                                        And Riffle is speechless. A real bonus.
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                                                                                                        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                          Yes, when I was a young child, my favorite story was "Little Red Riding Hood...And The Three Bears"


                                                                                                          How does that end, again?
                                                                                                          Well, (red flag to a bull, incentive) l believe that red riding hood, had sexual innuendo given to her buy a wolf that kicked the grandmother out of her house.

                                                                                                          Then the wolf, had cannibalistic tendencies, and ran after red riding hood. In the meantime the three bears after, realizing that the porridge had serious health and safety issues, decided to go to Maccers and binge out there.

                                                                                                          They also may have tested mattresses, for safety concerns.

                                                                                                          Snow white and 7 dwarfs after their drawf throwing finals, may have tried out the biggest bed, but l won't tell that one without a whip and a chair, (you know what they say about elves).

                                                                                                          And they all lived seriously happily ever after, (albeit certain leather bondage goods were involved).

                                                                                                          Ok, there you go Terra, killed three birds with one swoop!




                                                                                                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                                                          Absolutely, unequivocally, no comment.
                                                                                                          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                                                          Only a few people will get that, but very nicely done.

                                                                                                          And Riffle is speechless. A real bonus.
                                                                                                          Yeah, took me a good 5 seconds to see the hidden message, no buts about it!

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                                                                                                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                                                                                                            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

                                                                                                            Well, (red flag to a bull, incentive) l believe that red riding hood, had sexual innuendo given to her buy a wolf that kicked the grandmother out of her house.

                                                                                                            Then the wolf, had cannibalistic tendencies, and ran after red riding hood. In the meantime the three bears after, realizing that the porridge had serious health and safety issues, decided to go to Maccers and binge out there.

                                                                                                            They also may have tested mattresses, for safety concerns.

                                                                                                            Snow white and 7 dwarfs after their drawf throwing finals, may have tried out the biggest bed, but l won't tell that one without a whip and a chair, (you know what they say about elves).

                                                                                                            And they all lived seriously happily ever after, (albeit certain leather bondage goods were involved).

                                                                                                            Ok, there you go Terra, killed three birds with one swoop!








                                                                                                            Yeah, took me a good 5 seconds to see the hidden message, no buts about it!

                                                                                                            Shane!!!


                                                                                                            No! Just No!


                                                                                                            Terra
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                                                            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                            Yep, I knew it was a stretch. I was going more for the insult than a proper solvable equation. (Besides, Claude won't know the difference.)
                                                            When the bungee cord hits the ground, "a stretch" is not the correct description.

                                                            I didn't know you were trying to insult him. I read through it and it looked like you were grabbing straws to give a compliment - in an offhand humorous way. So my reply was to blow off your compliment.

                                                            Should I stop posting late at night? Seems that consciousness can be fully interrupted without the need of inducing the sleep process............or tequila.
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                                                            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
                                                              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                              I love it.

                                                              Dan; Impressive self control. Probably funnier than anything you could say directly (and I know you know that)

                                                              Terra: What the heck are you doing, woman?! Are you trying to kill Riffle?

                                                              (Because, if you are...I want in)
                                                              I will bring the popcorn!


                                                              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                                              When the bungee cord hits the ground, "a stretch" is not the correct description.

                                                              I didn't know you were trying to insult him. I read through it and it looked like you were grabbing straws to give a compliment - in an offhand humorous way. So my reply was to blow off your compliment.

                                                              Should I stop posting late at night? Seems that consciousness can be fully interrupted without the need of inducing the sleep process............or tequila.
                                                              No, late at night is when l have produced my most impressive slip ups with spelling.


                                                              Glad you are using my smileys Terra, (as well as others) much better than the evil, undernourished ones!

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                                                            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                                                              When the bungee cord hits the ground, "a stretch" is not the correct description.

                                                              I didn't know you were trying to insult him. I read through it and it looked like you were grabbing straws to give a compliment - in an offhand humorous way. So my reply was to blow off your compliment.

                                                              Should I stop posting late at night? Seems that consciousness can be fully interrupted without the need of inducing the sleep process............or tequila.

                                                              Your first mistake was thinking that I'd actually compliment Claude in a public forum. Come on, Sal. You know me better than that.
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                                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                                Your first mistake was thinking that I'd actually compliment Claude in a public forum. Come on, Sal. You know me better than that.
                                                                It's true. When we meet in person, we greet by punching each other in the stomach. I still owe Riffle a groin kick, for his Birthday.


                                                                Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                                                I once apologized to a real estate agent for not signing her contract - saying it was that she
                                                                was firm about the 7% commission. There were numerous reasons, but I was just trying to
                                                                be polite you know.

                                                                She then launched into a several minute psychobabble thing about how I was not rejecting her,
                                                                but that she was rejecting me because I would not pay her full fee...I could feel her therapy
                                                                sessions.
                                                                .
                                                                She was just protecting her position, as the one who is in control. It's mental gymnastics, to preserve her self esteem. Saying it to you out loud, though...was her version of a hissy fit.
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                                                                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                                                  Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                                                  I'm late to this party.

                                                                  Anyway, there was an employee at a store I used to frequent.
                                                                  She was deaf since birth. She learned to understand people by vibration.
                                                                  I could walk up behind her and she would know who I was.
                                                                  That (vibrations) is why I wondered if my deaf friend could feel the thunder like I can. He couldn't, but if I remember correctly he could hear until he was about 3 years old. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
                                                                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                                    That (vibrations) is why I wondered if my deaf friend could feel the thunder like I can. He couldn't, but if I remember correctly he could hear until he was about 3 years old. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
                                                                    When I worked for the Canadian Hearing Society, we organized a monthly dance for the deaf community.

                                                                    The hall was filled to capacity at each and every event.

                                                                    The deaf do dance to the vibrations.
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                                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                                                    That (vibrations) is why I wondered if my deaf friend could feel the thunder like I can. He couldn't, but if I remember correctly he could hear until he was about 3 years old. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
                                                                    Maybe the girl used the word "vibration" to mean something slightly different from what we might think. I can tell when my wife is walking through our store's door, by the sound of the "Ding". I can't figure out if it's because of the sound bouncing off her, or because she opens the door at a certain speed (the "ding" is mechanical).

                                                                    Added later;

                                                                    In the martial arts, you hear about "vibration". I heard it for 15 years before I finally figured out what it meant.
                                                                    It meant "wave of momentum". But the Chinese translate it as Vibration.
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                                                                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                                      "wave of momentum"
                                                                      Isn't that your indian name?
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      My brain isn't dense. It's fluffy....
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Claude,

                      I'm not sure Jaynes would add much to your understanding of the subject at this point. Dennett and his contemporaries have moved things well beyond that stage.

                      It was revolutionary in the 70s. Not so much now.

                      I've met a few of what you call "pro-social sociopaths." One of them is among my favorite people to discuss things with. Brilliant fellow, and acutely aware of how different he is. He's also got a more thorough understanding of "neurotypical" motivations than almost anyone I know. His thinking is unclouded by any investment in his own ego.

                      Where he lacks is in the intuitive understanding that comes from familiarity. He can reason the states, but without experiencing them he's at something of a loss.

                      Probably in much the same way you describe. It's an intellectual understanding, but doesn't go beyond that.That's probably true of all of us, Claude.
                      Pretty accurate. It really did help in selling. But it took several years to work out what these reactions meant. So, what was first a real handicap (in my opinion) eventually became a real tool in selling.

                      When I was a kid, I didn't understand why some joke were funny, and some were hurtful.
                      I didn't understand why practical jokes were funny, or not.

                      As an adult, I remember being in an audience of about 100, listening to a motivational speaker. At one point, I looked around, and everyone was crying except me.

                      After the talk, the lady next to me asked why I appeared unmoved. I said "He has been telling this exact same story for ten years, probably every day. He acted like he was crying, but he wasn't. He built the story to build rapport, and sell tapes". I thought I was just telling her the truth. But it never occurred to me to consider what she was feeling at the time.

                      I've learned to mimic emotional responses when appropriate. But I still get caught off guard. I've had to PM Riffle a couple of times to ask if my jabbing was beyond what he could take. And he's done the same with me.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Claude,

                        I do to have souls. 2 on each pair of boots. And I have a lot of boots!

                        The sales thing wasn't really a guess. I used to train salespeople, many years ago. We had our share of sociopaths come through, and they got weeded out as soon as we spotted them. The ones I dealt with back then had no sense of fairness at all. They were exactly the kinds of people you see in boiler rooms in the movies, selling over-priced stocks to little old ladies, with claims of "inside info."

                        I can imagine what it was like trying to figure that stuff out with no shared frame of reference.

                        I'd have loved to have seen the look on the lady's face when you told her about that speaker's trick. Seriously. It isn't always pretty when the light comes on, but it's better than the dark. Unless you want to stay asleep...


                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          I usually try to avoid subjects like these because they're just way too deep for me and I tend to over analyze things.

                          To keep this simple, for my own sake and peace of mind, I think of consciousness as simply being alive. You don't even have to be awake as even when you sleep you can dream and know you exist.

                          Degree of consciousness? Does it matter? Each person's experience and feeling of life itself is different. So what does a definition even matter? Is there a standard we all have to aspire to? Is person X less than person Y because of difference Z?

                          We can nit pick this to death but in the final analysis, we're born, we live, we die. And in the middle of all that, we feel. Some of us more than others. But we all feel something unless we were born in a coma and never come out of it.

                          As I get older I am feeling life more than I ever have before. I appreciate each day more than I ever have before. Will that change as I get older still? Who knows? I don't know what the future holds. I may wake up tomorrow and not give a crap about anything. But right now, I am what I am. That's all that matters.

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                          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                            I usually try to avoid subjects like these because they're just way too deep for me and I tend to over analyze things.

                            To keep this simple, for my own sake and peace of mind, I think of consciousness as simply being alive. You don't even have to be awake as even when you sleep you can dream and know you exist.

                            Degree of consciousness? Does it matter? Each person's experience and feeling of life itself is different. So what does a definition even matter? Is there a standard we all have to aspire to? Is person X less than person Y because of difference Z?

                            We can nit pick this to death but in the final analysis, we're born, we live, we die. And in the middle of all that, we feel. Some of us more than others. But we all feel something unless we were born in a coma and never come out of it.

                            As I get older I am feeling life more than I ever have before. I appreciate each day more than I ever have before. Will that change as I get older still? Who knows? I don't know what the future holds. I may wake up tomorrow and not give a crap about anything. But right now, I am what I am. That's all that matters.
                            Oh sure! Force us to read something that makes perfect sense. Feel better?!

                            It's all just an intellectual exercise. And my blind friend had some insights that I thought were interesting. And personally, I learned something about how deaf people see the world.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Claude,

                          I do to have souls. 2 on each pair of boots. And I have a lot of boots!

                          The sales thing wasn't really a guess. I used to train salespeople, many years ago. We had our share of sociopaths come through, and they got weeded out as soon as we spotted them. The ones I dealt with back then had no sense of fairness at all. They were exactly the kinds of people you see in boiler rooms in the movies, selling over-priced stocks to little old ladies, with claims of "inside info."

                          I can imagine what it was like trying to figure that stuff out with no shared frame of reference.

                          I'd have loved to have seen the look on the lady's face when you told her about that speaker's trick. Seriously. It isn't always pretty when the light comes on, but it's better than the dark. Unless you want to stay asleep...


                          Paul
                          Paul; There are lots of types of sociopaths. Some lazy, some habitual liars, some violent, some will embezzle from the company. Some try to hurt others. Some never take responsibility for their actions. Some are adrenaline junkies. And some are very high functioning, and show few traits that harm others.

                          I think it depends on heredity, how you were raised, and what areas of your brain are affected. Many sociopaths have damage to their frontal lobes. They make snap decisions, and extremely impulsive, and cannot plan ahead. Most anyone with anti-social behavior can be diagnosed as a sociopath. It isn't just one thing.

                          About your salespeople with no sense of fairness. I saw it too. They couldn't be helped or changed. Thank goodness they were in the minority.

                          You might like this story;
                          In the very small town of Lodi Ohio, where I grew up, and so did most of my relatives..was a funeral home. Parker Funeral Home. They have handled all funeral arrangements for my family (on both sides) for nearly 80 years.

                          Well, when I was about ten or twelve, a friend an d I asked if we could shovel the snow off their walk. The owner had us shovel the deep snow all around the funeral home, and the parking lot. Then he drove us to his home, and we shoveled his drive and his walk.

                          My memory blurs a little, but it was several hours of hard work. Two of us. We went to the funeral home to get paid. Mister Parker told us what minimum wage was (Maybe $1.25 at the time) subtracted income tax(!) and then split what was left between us. It was under $2 each.

                          My friend threw a fit. He threw down the shovel, and wanted us to spend the rest of te day, shoveling the snow back onto the walk. He was upset that I was so calm.

                          A few years ago, my mother died. I was handling the arrangements. My aunt told me "I called Parker's. They said they could handle everything for about $8,000". (this included burial). Parker's was the only funeral home in the area.

                          I said "No. I've made other arrangements in Cleveland. It's a little more, but I'm taking care of it"

                          She was astonished that I wasn't going to use the "Family" funeral home. She was pretty upset about it. She asked me why I wouldn't use Parker's.

                          I told her about the incident when I was a kid.

                          She said "You mean to tell me that the reason you won't do business with Parker's is because they cheated you when you were a little kid? That's the reason?"

                          I said "That's the reason".

                          When I was a kid, I didn't get upset... but it was unfair. And I decided that eventually, I would get even. And I did. Now...we're even.

                          Mister Parker shouldn't have split the money between us. Pay us each minimum wage for the time? I would have been thrilled. But I knew that splitting the money was cheating us.

                          When I was about 25, I was shopping for a car. The salesman was pleasant, and I was a jerk,. I insulted him, badly...and he treated me like a friend. My behavior bothered me for several decades.

                          About 10 years ago, he came into my store, with his wife. He was shopping for a vacuum cleaner. I showed him one of our best. When he asked me the cost...I asked if he remembered me. He didn't....but I remembered.

                          I told him that he did me a huge favor once, and I owed him. I gave him the vacuum. It took some convincing. As they walked out, I thought "Good. Now we're even".
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Claude,

                            I hear you.

                            I was in a bad state mentally a long time ago. One guy, who I knew a bit, but wasn't really that close with, noticed it. I'm not one to talk about my problems, figuring other people have their own. I usually listen to theirs. This dude went out of his way to listen. Actively got me talking and heard what was going on. It made a huge difference at that point.

                            10 years later, he was in a rough spot that he didn't create. I gave him a place to stay, rent-free, for over a year. We're now closer than most siblings. Hell, he's as close as my brothers, and my family is really close. (I am one of the luckiest people in the world in that regard. Seriously. Scarcely a day goes by that I don't have reason to be consciously thankful for the parents and siblings I was given.)

                            Another dude went out of his way to screw with me when I was new to the net. I'd done nothing to warrant it, and dude was rude. 4 years later, a friend asked me if he was someone who should speak at a conference we were putting together. I told her he "wasn't someone I would trust to teach new folks." I so rarely talk bad about people that she dropped it, and him, right there.

                            Cost him more than he'd have ever believed. $5k in speaking fees, and the chance to be on stage in early 2000 next to Jay Abraham, the Lanfords, Corey Rudl, Drew Allen Kaplan, Ken Evoy, Declan Dunn, Paul Hartunian, and a passle of other very cool people.

                            I didn't look for a reason to mess with him. I didn't talk sh_t about him. I just answered an honest question with the truth.

                            We are all agents of karma. Or, in your case, justice.


                            Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            Paul; There are lots of types of sociopaths. Some lazy, some habitual liars, some violent, some will embezzle from the company. Some try to hurt others. Some never take responsibility for their actions. Some are adrenaline junkies. And some are very high functioning, and show few traits that harm others.

                            I think it depends on heredity, how you were raised, and what areas of your brain are affected. Many sociopaths have damage to their frontal lobes. They make snap decisions, and extremely impulsive, and cannot plan ahead. Most anyone with anti-social behavior can be diagnosed as a sociopath. It isn't just one thing.

                            About your salespeople with no sense of fairness. I saw it too. They couldn't be helped or changed. Thank goodness they were in the minority.

                            You might like this story;
                            In the very small town of Lodi Ohio, where I grew up, and so did most of my relatives..was a funeral home. Perkins Funeral Home. They have handled all funeral arrangements for my family (on both sides) for nearly 80 years.

                            Well, when I was about ten or twelve, a friend an d I asked if we could shovel the snow off their walk. The owner had us shovel the deep snow all around the funeral home, and the parking lot. Then he drove us to his home, and we shoveled his drive and his walk.

                            My memory blurs a little, but it was several hours of hard work. Two of us. We went to the funeral home to get paid. Mister Parker told us what minimum wage was (Mybe $1.25 at the time) subtracted income tax(!) and then split what was left between us. It was under $2 each.

                            My friend threw a fit. He threw down the shovel, and wanted us to spend the rest of te day, shoveling the snow back onto the walk. He was upset that I was so calm.

                            A few years ago, my mother died. I was handling the arrangements. My aunt told me "I called Parker's. They said thy could handle everything for about $8,000". (this included burial). Parker's was the only funeral home in the area.

                            I said "No. I've made other arrangements in Cleveland. It's a little more, but I'm taking care of it"

                            She was astonished that I wasn't going to use the "Family" funeral home. She was pretty upset about it. She asked me why I wouldn't use Parker's.

                            I told her about the incident when I was a kid.

                            She said "You mean to tell me that the reason you won't do business with Parker's is because they cheated you when you were a little kid? That's the reason?"

                            I said "That's the reason".

                            When I was a kid, I didn't get upset... but it was unfair. And I decided that eventually, I would get even. And I did. Now...we're even.

                            Mister Parker shouldn't have split the money between us. Pay us each minimum wage for the time? I would have been thrilled. But I knew that splitting the money was cheating us.

                            When I was about 25, I was shopping for a car. The salesman was pleasant, and I was a jerk,. I insulted him, badly...and he treated me like a friend. My behavior bothered me for several decades.

                            About 10 years ago, he came into my store, with his wife. He was shopping for a vacuum cleaner. I showed him one of our best. When he asked me the cost...I asked if he remembered me. He didn't....but I remembered.

                            I told him that he did me a huge favor once, and I owed him. I gave him the vacuum. It took some convincing. As they walked out, I thought "Good. Now we're even".
                            I'm proud of you, Claude, and impressed!

                            But I'm a little confused...

                            Was the funeral home Perkins or Parkers or did Mr. Parker own Perkins?


                            Terra
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                              I'm proud of you, Claude, and impressed!

                              But I'm a little confused...

                              Was the funeral home Perkins or Parkers or did Mr. Parker own Perkins?


                              Terra
                              Parker Funeral Home. I forget until I was in the middle of the post, and then forgot to go back and change it. Thanks for paying attention to my little story.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                Claude,

                                Among the dozens of places I lived at various points in my youth was the small town of Silver Creek, New York. It is notable for two things: The annual Grape Festival and the "Hole-Parker" Funeral Home.

                                Yes, really.


                                Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author discrat
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            A few years ago, my mother died. I was handling the arrangements. My aunt told me "I called Parker's. They said they could handle everything for about $8,000". (this included burial). Parker's was the only funeral home in the area.

                            I said "No. I've made other arrangements in Cleveland. It's a little more, but I'm taking care of it"

                            She was astonished that I wasn't going to use the "Family" funeral home. She was pretty upset about it. She asked me why I wouldn't use Parker's.

                            I told her about the incident when I was a kid.

                            She said "You mean to tell me that the reason you won't do business with Parker's is because they cheated you when you were a little kid? That's the reason?"

                            I said "That's the reason".

                            When I was a kid, I didn't get upset... but it was unfair. And I decided that eventually, I would get even. And I did. Now...we're even.
                            Claude,
                            You sound so similar to a world renown Pro-social Socio- Path, Dr. James Fallon.

                            He does the exact same thing. Whether it be next month or next decade he said in interviews he will eventually get even with someone else no matter what (even if it does not make sense to most of us.)

                            Interesting. You all should meet sometime.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                              Claude,
                              You sound so similar to a world renown Pro-social Socio- Path, Dr. James Fallon.

                              He does the exact same thing. Whether it be next month or next decade he said in interviews he will eventually get even with someone else no matter what (even if it does not make sense to most of us.)

                              Interesting. You all should meet sometime.
                              I read his book. It was freaky. He has a "Warrior" gene, that I probably don't have. And was naturally outgoing, as a kid...where I was more introspective. But through much of the book, I was thinking "That's exactly the way I view the world".

                              When he described how he felt about his wife and kids, It was very strange. I process my affection the same way. I knew it was different from anyone I know, but Fallon described it better than I would.

                              He and I share the same brain anomaly. Lack of function in the temporal lobes (or maybe damage, or lack of connection)
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        Pretty accurate. It really did help in selling. But it took several years to work out what these reactions meant. So, what was first a real handicap (in my opinion) eventually became a real tool in selling.

                        When I was a kid, I didn't understand why some joke were funny, and some were hurtful.
                        I didn't understand why practical jokes were funny, or not.

                        As an adult, I remember being in an audience of about 100, listening to a motivational speaker. At one point, I looked around, and everyone was crying except me.

                        After the talk, the lady next to me asked why I appeared unmoved. I said "He has been telling this exact same story for ten years, probably every day. He acted like he was crying, but he wasn't. He built the story to build rapport, and sell tapes". I thought I was just telling her the truth. But it never occurred to me to consider what she was feeling at the time.

                        I've learned to mimic emotional responses when appropriate. But I still get caught off guard. I've had to PM Riffle a couple of times to ask if my jabbing was beyond what he could take. And he's done the same with me.
                        I read the original transcript of that Seminar story. It was You on stage and Riffle in the audience.

                        As for you and Dan contacting each other well! You should remember that "Love means never having to say your sorry" :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I think that we're already pulling away from the "human only" idea of consciousness. There is also a growing number of people recognizing levels of consciousness and realizing that some human senses have become deadened. The pineal gland has function as a "third eye", and allows more intuitive, and possibly more esoteric, sensing, but a lot of the chemicals we are exposed to daily now calcify it, resulting in a deadening of the senses. There's a gland near the stomach that also has been found to act as a form of second brain - thought now to be responsible for the "gut" feeling that comes with intuition. We only use 10% of our brain, that we know of. Hard telling what is in the other 90% that we've either messed up, repressed, or just not learned to use yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Sal,

      People who deal often with animals pretty much accept them as being conscious in the ways that are important to most folks.

      The ones who argue that consciousness has anything to do with emotion will lose that one every time. The ones who argue that it's a function of higher reasoning are, in my mind, attempting to define the question away.

      Then there's the "self-awareness" argument. I find it hard to believe that dogs, who are capable of feeling shame and joy and pride, are not aware in that way.

      I'm not sure I buy the 10% argument. I suspect there's a lot more going on in there than is generally recognized.


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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        I'm not sure I buy the 10% argument. I suspect there's a lot more going on in there than is generally recognized.


        Paul
        Sal and Paul; The "We only use 10% of our brain" statement is one of the many old wives tales that were tossed around, years ago. A psychiatrist (or psychologist, I forget) once mentioned that we are only using 10% of our mental potential..or words to that effect. It was based on observing a genius, and guessing at what the rest of us were doing. This myth is over 100 years old. It's right up there with "You need to stay out of the water an hour after you eat". It's been a few years since I researched the claim, but this is the gist of it.

        It was stated in an article, and then repeated until it became the gospel.

        But it isn't true at all. People with healthy brains use nearly 100% of their brains, just not all at once. When we perform different mental functions, different parts of the brain are engaged. (This can be clearly seen in brain scans)

        Sometimes it's a very small area that's engaged, and sometimes multiple areas are engaged at once. Whatever is needed.

        But we are using the brain, pretty much as much as we're capable of. That's what evolution does.

        Do you know who is not saying we use 10% of our brain power? Brain pathologists.



        added a tad later;
        I even looked it up. Let's put this nonsense to rest, OK?


        Scientific America.
        Do People Only Use 10 Percent of Their Brains? - Scientific American


        This tells of the origin of the myth.
        Ten percent of brain myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Sal,

        People who deal often with animals pretty much accept them as being conscious in the ways that are important to most folks.

        The ones who argue that consciousness has anything to do with emotion will lose that one every time. The ones who argue that it's a function of higher reasoning are, in my mind, attempting to define the question away.

        Then there's the "self-awareness" argument. I find it hard to believe that dogs, who are capable of feeling shame and joy and pride, are not aware in that way.

        I'm not sure I buy the 10% argument. I suspect there's a lot more going on in there than is generally recognized.


        Paul
        Animals are mostly sentient. They know when they are in trouble - and some - many species - will show gratitude to the person who saves them. They know enough self to know when they are rescued from misery or death.

        I'm not real sure how they figured the 10% - seems to be more of an estimate of physical measurement that they know what's going on inside of than an estimate of grok ability, etc. if you ask me. I had similar questions about that during my studies....but still use the 10% figure, although to me that 10% pretty much translates into "unknown amount".

        As far as emotion - I've related it to our survival instinct, but truth be told all we need for survival is the differentiation between positive and negative, there's no absolute survival necessity for the array of emotion we have. I'm thinking they are vibrational reactions.....and thus, if you didn't catch them, it might be your awareness, thus your consciousness, might be just be a lower degree?

        This is really good cinder block material.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Thanks Paul. It makes sense in that context.
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  • Profile picture of the author blindapeseo
    If you can, see if you can attend a blind dinner / evening.
    We have these in Europe.. a place in Hamburg is called Dialogue in the dark.

    They have a few rooms set up to simulate a street scene, a supermarket aisle, etc...
    And it is PITCH black... so you can't see anything.

    After the "parcours" you can sit down and talk to a blind guide (who are helping you along)

    There is also the option to eat dinner - now THAT is an experience...

    Very educational, I highly recommend it.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I'm late to this party.

    Anyway, there was an employee at a store I used to frequent.
    She was deaf since birth. She learned to understand people by vibration.
    I could walk up behind her and she would know who I was. We could carry
    on a conversation with very little misunderstandings. She must have been
    very intelligent to be able to piece together this method.

    I assume it was something like memorizing "the" is this vibration and so on. I
    do not know if it was all feeling the vibration, or a combination of feeling and
    perhaps a little hearing. Awed me.

    -------------------

    With respect to Claude's experience - or lack thereof - with sales rejection, it probably
    saved years of bad therapy.

    I once apologized to a real estate agent for not signing her contract - saying it was that she
    was firm about the 7% commission. There were numerous reasons, but I was just trying to
    be polite you know.

    She then launched into a several minute psychobabble thing about how I was not rejecting her,
    but that she was rejecting me because I would not pay her full fee...I could feel her therapy
    sessions.

    --------------------


    I don't know if it was research based, but one of my college psych professors frequently
    commented that most successful people got there by perseverance and were not always
    the smartest. And it was not in a field that came easy to them.

    Now that I think about it, I think it might be related to what one researcher labeled
    N-Ach, or need for achievement. He found that people with this factor were just
    naturally goal driven and needed challenges. He used his research in business
    settings to improve results at the organizational level. And it seems he could
    instill this drive when working with individual business owners, although not all
    would "get it".

    ----------------

    I could do without angry voices, but I would not want to go without hearing
    the "music" of language: the nuances of love talk, hearing "I love you", the
    sound of children laughing, a pleasant voice, a comedy, the noises my dogs
    have made...
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Only a few will go where this man and Terra did not intend.
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author MyLuckyYear
    I have read quite a bit about blindsight. In the 1960s scientists noticed strange behavior from a monkey named Helen. Though Helen was cortically blind (her visual cortex had been completely removed), she exhibited signs of sight.

    For example, she would blink in response to stimuli that could threaten her eyes or identify the location, size, color, and patterns of objects. Everything pointed to the bizarre conclusion that Helen was somehow capable of sight.

    In the following years, researchers began to observe similar phenomena in humans.

    Like Helen, these blind patients could react to visual stimuli. Some could catch balls when prompted or describe changes in their visual field. While they could not see these queues, they would describe "sensing" a motion or just moving their hands to wherever felt right.
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by MyLuckyYear View Post

      I have read quite a bit about blindsight. In the 1960s scientists noticed strange behavior from a monkey named Helen. Though Helen was cortically blind (her visual cortex had been completely removed), she exhibited signs of sight.

      For example, she would blink in response to stimuli that could threaten her eyes or identify the location, size, color, and patterns of objects. Everything pointed to the bizarre conclusion that Helen was somehow capable of sight.

      In the following years, researchers began to observe similar phenomena in humans.

      Like Helen, these blind patients could react to visual stimuli. Some could catch balls when prompted or describe changes in their visual field. While they could not see these queues, they would describe "sensing" a motion or just moving their hands to wherever felt right.
      Yes, the third eye, or that area can act in a similar fashion to how bats see with bouncing sound waves off things.

      Further research needs to be done!

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