Gun instructor accidentally killed by 9-yr-old girl with Uzi

Banned 11 years ago

Yeah, I just saw this on CNN. The girl successfully fires a single shot prior to her losing control shortly thereafter when the weapon was placed on full auto. Terrible decision and terrible news! The "criteria" for firing the weapon at that range was 8 years old. Good grief...

9-year-old girl accidentally kills shooting...

Cheers

-don

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

The "criteria" for firing the weapon at that range was 8 years old.

I see ... thanks, Don. (Call me naive but I'm absolutely astonished!).

As they say: there's no such thing as "illegitimate children", only "illegitimate parents".

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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I see ... thanks, Don. (Call me naive but I'm absolutely astonished!).

As they say: there's no such thing as "illegitimate children", only "illegitimate parents".

While I learned to shoot a .22 rifle at age 5 or 6 their is no way I would ever allow a small 9 year old kid to fire an Uzi on auto. The authorities say no charges are pending against the parents or anyone else, but obviously stupidity won the day here.

A terrible tragedy but I agree with you...a very bad decision by the parents and the range/instructor.

Cheers

-don

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

While I learned to shoot a .22 rifle at age 5 or 6 their is no way I would ever allow a small 9 year old kid to fire an Uzi on auto. The authorities say no charges are pending against the parents or anyone else, but obviously stupidity won the day here.

A terrible tragedy but I agree with you...a very bad decision by the parents and the range/instructor.

Cheers

-don

Defiantly a poor choice for her to fire the Uzi on auto. I good friend of mine is heavy into guns and a certified instructor. He taught his daughter how to shoot at around 5, but never gave her any gun that wasn't appropriate for her size and training.

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hardraysnight

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

While I learned to shoot a .22 rifle at age 5 or 6 their is no way I would ever allow a small 9 year old kid to fire an Uzi on auto. The authorities say no charges are pending against the parents or anyone else, but obviously stupidity won the day here.

A terrible tragedy but I agree with you...a very bad decision by the parents and the range/instructor.

Cheers

-don

you forgot to include lawmakers

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Yeah, I just saw this on CNN. The girl successfully fires a single shot prior to her losing control shortly thereafter when the weapon was placed on full auto. Terrible decision and terrible news! The "criteria" for firing the weapon at that range was 8 years old. Good grief...

9-year-old girl accidentally kills shooting instructor with Uzi - YouTube

Cheers

-don

OK, ****THAT**** is ILLEGAL!!!!!!! They gave an AUTOMATIC weapon to someone not licensed to have one? She was only NINE! She obviously was startled, and or, somewhat unable to handle the kickback. HEY, that is OK for one bullet. No big deal. But on AUTO, before you realize it, that gun can kick SEVERAL times. It MAGNIFIES the kickback. AND, a SEMIautomatic requires 2 NEW actions to shoot one bullet.(You have to lift your finger, and press again) An automatic can keep shooting with NO new actions!(just keep your finger on the trigger) You may have seen in the movies where a person is given an automatic and ends up spinning around and shooting aimlessly. That kind of thing CAN happen with an automatic, which is one reason why they are generally illegal..

If anyone ever learned to type on an old manual typewriter, THEY are like semiautomatic guns! Try going to an automatic typewriter, which is like an automatic gun. What USUALLY happens? You end up with multiple characters on the page before you know what is happening. An old manual requires a heavy long touch, so the arm hits fully and hard. An automatic requires a soft light touch, as anything more will cause it to repeat.

So this was ILLEGAL, and STUPID!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

OK, ****THAT**** is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!

...

So this was ILLEGAL, and STUPID!

Steve

It wasn't illegal Steve. That range was fully licensed and legal operation. It was stupid to let that 9 year old shoot that uzi on automatic, but it wasn't illegal.

I was a pre-teen when I first shot a high powered service rifle. I only shot it once. I felt as though I had been kicked by a mule and my shoulder was black and blue. My father told me how to hold it against my shoulder, but none the less ... it was a powerful recoil and I didn't like it.... at all.

Now, if they could make a fully automatic .22 (lol), I would love to go to a firing range and fire it. I think it would be fun to knock off a whole row of targets at the rate of 20 bullets per minute. But even as an adult now, I really have no confidence in my ability to handle high powered recoil.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It wasn't illegal Steve. That range was fully licensed and legal operation. It was stupid to let that 9 year old shoot that uzi on automatic, but it wasn't illegal.

I was a pre-teen when I first shot a high powered service rifle. I only shot it once. I felt as though I had been kicked by a mule and my shoulder was black and blue. My father told me how to hold it against my shoulder, but none the less ... it was a powerful recoil and I didn't like it.... at all.

Now, if they could make a fully automatic .22 (lol), I would love to go to a firing range and fire it. I think it would be fun to knock off a whole row of targets at the rate of 20 bullets per minute. But even as an adult now, I really have no confidence in my ability to handle high powered recoil.

It violates the 1934 national firearms act!

National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The National Firearms Act of 1968 (NFA) defines a number of categories of regulated firearms. These weapons are collectively known as NFA firearms and include the following:
Machine guns—this includes any firearm which can fire more than 1 cartridge per trigger pull. Both continuous fully automatic fire and "burst fire" (i.e., firearms with a 3-round burst feature) are considered machine gun features. The weapon's receiver is by itself considered to be a regulated firearm. A non-machinegun that may be converted to fire more than one shot per trigger pull by ordinary mechanical skills is determined to be "readily convertible", and classed as a machinegun, such as a KG-9 pistol (pre-ban ones are "grandfathered").

Suppressors and machine guns are the most heavily regulated. For example, in Ruling 81-4, BATFE declared that any AR-15 Drop-in Auto-Sear (DIAS) made after November 1, 1981 is itself a machine gun, and is therefore subject to regulation.[9] While this might seem to mean that pre-1981 sears are legal to possess without registration, BATFE closes this loophole in other publications, stating, "Regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession of such a sear and certain M-16 fire control parts is possession of a machinegun as defined by the NFA. Specifically, these parts are listed as "(a) combination(s) of parts" designed "Solely and exclusively" for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun and are a machinegun as defined in the NFA." ATF machinegun technology letters written between 1980 and 1996 by Edward M. Owen – the then-chief of the ATF technology division defined "solely and exclusively" in all of his published and unpublished machinegun rulings with specific non-ambiguous language. [10]
Owning the parts needed to assemble other NFA firearms is generally restricted. One individual cannot own or manufacture certain machine gun sear (fire-control) components unless he owns a registered machine gun. The M2 Carbine trigger pack is such an example of a "combination of parts" that is a machinegun in and of itself. Most of these have been registered as they were pulled from stores of surplus rifles in the early 1960s. In some special cases, exceptions have been determined to these by the BATFE. A string or shoelace that could be looped around the cocking handle of a semiautomatic firearm and then behind and in front of the trigger in such a way as to allow the firearm to be fired automatically is no longer considered a machinegun unless it is attached in this manner.[11]
Most current fully automatic trigger groups will not fit their semi-automatic firearm look-alike counterparts – the semi-automatic version is specifically constructed to reject the fully automatic trigger group by adding metal in critical places. This addition is required by the ATF to prevent easy conversion of Title I firearms into machine guns.

the language of the statute as originally enacted was as follows:
The term "firearm"(Prohibited) means a shotgun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition.[6]

So YEAH, it is ILLEGAL in the US! YOU have to have a license! It is a fair bet that this 9 year old did NOT! You can't just go into a store and buy one either, license OR machine gun!

People have been thrown in jail for CONVERTING semis to full.

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

It violates the 1934 national firearms act!

So YEAH, it is ILLEGAL in the US! YOU have to have a license! It is a fair bet that this 9 year old did NOT! You can't just go into a store and buy one either, license OR machine gun!

People have been thrown in jail for CONVERTING semis to full.

Steve

Steve,

As far as the feds are concerned, it is the weapon has to be legally licensed, and many states do license automatic weapons.

You can't sell a gun to a minor, but a minor can fire the weapon. No federal law exists that is designed to disallow a child from firing weapons. It would be up to state and local law to regulate the use of licensed weapons. I am not positive, but I believe NY is one of the tougher states when it comes to using "handguns" at a range.

It is up to states and local municipalities to regulate gun access. At a federal level, there is no law covering children’s access to guns, even powerful machine guns.

And at gun ranges the management, in compliance with state laws, can determine what age a person must be to handle firearms. Sam Scarmardo, manager of the “Bullets and Burgers” range where Monday's incident took place, told NBC News that “the established practice at most shooting ranges is eight years old and up with parental supervision.”

“It’s very gray, because there really is no (federal) law on this,” Tom Mangan, special agent in the Phoenix office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told NBC News. “It seems to go beyond common sense … obviously what we have here is a very tragic accident that occurred with the loss of the life of that instructor, but also with that respect to that little girl.”

Too Young to Shoot? Why It's Legal for Kids to Handle Uzis - NBC News

See below for the generally gist of what it takes to obtain and posses automatic weapon in Connecticut. Notice you won't find anything that disallows the safe firing of the licensed weapon by others except for the standard crazy/criminal and the handgun age possession stuff.

There is no age requirement for “possessing” machine guns as a class of weapons under federal or state law

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2009/rpt/2009-R-0020.htm

.

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Steve,

As far as the feds are concerned, it is the weapon has to be legally licensed, and many states do license automatic weapons.

No federal law exists that disallows a child from firing weapons. It would be up to state and local law to regulate the use of licensed weapons. I am not positive, but I believe NY is one of the tougher states when it comes to using "handguns" at a range.

WOW, it was my understanding that YOU had to have a license, etc... NY recently passed alawagainst any guns with morethan 5 bullets, IIRC. I BELIEVE it prohibits ANY possession of ones that violate it.

In my defense, that article DOES say:

Procedure for Acquiring Machine Guns

An unlicensed individual may acquire machine guns, with ATF approval, from its lawful owner residing in the same state as the individual (27 CFR §§ 479.84 & 479.105). The transferor must file an ATF application, which must be completed by both parties to the transfer

and executed under penalties of perjury, and pay a $200 transfer tax to ATF. The application must include detailed information on the firearm and the parties to the transfer (26 USC § 5812 & 27 CFR § 479.84).

The transferee must certify on the application that he or she is not disqualified from possessing firearms on grounds specified in law. He or she must submit with the application (1) two photographs taken within the past year; (2) fingerprints; and (3) a copy of any state or local permit or license required to buy, possess, or acquire machine guns (27 CFR § 479.85).

An appropriate law enforcement official must also certify whether he or she has any information indicating that the firearm will be used for other than lawful purposes or that possession would violate state or federal law (27 CFR § 479.85).

Approvals and Denials. Anyone acquiring a machine gun must, as part of the registration process, pass an extensive Federal Bureau of Investigation criminal background investigation. If ATF denies an application, it must refund the tax. Gun owners must keep approved applications as evidence of registration of the firearms and make them available for inspection by ATF officers.

So I can stand by the bulk of what I have been saying. I guess TECHNICALLY, if a person loans, or gives, a gun outside of a certain environment,and they are caught, the TWO could be found guilty of a felony It further spells that out:

The criminal penalties in the Gun Control Act include both felonies and misdemeanors. Fines and penalties for felonies are at least $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for organizations. For misdemeanors, the fines are up to $100,000 for individuals and $200,000 for organizations (18 USC § 924). The law also provides for forfeiture of firearms and ammunition involved in NFA violations (26 USC § 5872).

A willful attempt to evade or defeat the tax is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 for corporations) under the general tax evasion statute (26 USC § 7201). For an individual, the $100,000 for tax evasion fine could be increased to $250,000 (18 USC 3571(b)(3)).

But MAN, this pushes beyond reason. To give a really small person(I don't care if it is a boy, girl, child, or adult) a machine gun, or one with an automatic MODE CAPABILITY, when you haven't even assessed their tolerance is BEYOND STUPID! It is like having a person fly a jet before they ever flew a normal plane, etc... It would be like weight training someone using only the eccentric portion, when they never lifted any weight.

For that last reference, if you don't know, it is controlled slow lowering of a weight. Arnold Schwartenegger may have done that with his biceps with a couple hundred pounds. If this girl did it, it could have hurt her arms a LOT! How come it doesn't happen ALL THE TIME? Because most people follow the CONCENTRIC portion with the eccentric. If this little girl tried THAT, she would give up with the 100 pounds, simply being unable to move it, and go to a lower weight. And that weight would be EASY for her to safely lower. Her tolerance would be automatically assessed safely by her. It is the SAME with guns. You don't take a little person and start them off with a shot gun shell, or a 357 magnum or a MACHINE GUN.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

It violates the 1934 national firearms act!

National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So YEAH, it is ILLEGAL in the US! YOU have to have a license! It is a fair bet that this 9 year old did NOT! You can't just go into a store and buy one either, license OR machine gun!

People have been thrown in jail for CONVERTING semis to full.

Steve

That covers the restrictions on owning automatic weapons. It does not cover "firing" automatic weapons. The firing range legally owns those weapons and are allowed to let others fire them.

There are currently few laws on the legal age of children for firing weapons. New York has a 16 years old law, but that's about it.

Fully automatic firing ranges are big business. Do you think that if that was illegal, they would be operating in plain site with big signs to their places saying experience fully automatic shooting here?

With gun laws keeping high-powered weapons out of reach for most people -- especially those outside the U.S. -- indoor shooting ranges with high-powered weapons have become a popular attraction.

Tourists from Japan flock to ranges in Waikiki, Hawaii, and the dozen or so that have cropped up in Las Vegas offer bullet-riddled bachelor parties and literal shotgun weddings, where newly married couples can fire submachine gun rounds and pose with Uzis and ammo belts.

"People just want to experience things they can't experience elsewhere," said Genghis Cohen, owner of Machine Guns Vegas. "There's not an action movie in the past 30 years without a machine gun."

......
The dusty outdoor range calls itself the Bullets and Burgers Adventure and touts its "Desert Storm atmosphere."

Similar attractions have been around since the 1980s in Las Vegas, although the city has experienced a boom of such businesses in the past few years. Excitement over guns tends to spike when there's fear of tighter gun restrictions, according to Dan Sessions, general manager of Discount Firearms and Ammo, which houses the Vegas Machine Gun Experience.

There's also the prohibitive cost of owning an automatic weapon -- an M5 might go for $25,000, while a chance to gun down zombie targets with an AR-15 and three other weapons costs less than $200.
Gun Tourism Grows in Popularity in Recent Years - ABC News

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ThomM

11 years ago

WOW, it was my understanding that YOU had to have a license, etc... NY recently passed alawagainst any guns with morethan 5 bullets, IIRC. I BELIEVE it prohibits ANY possession of ones that violate it.

Yep our wonderful NY Safe Act. Another useless attempt at curbing gun violence.
I don't think it will last much longer though. 80% of the counties in NYS have passed resolutions opposing the Safe Act, mine included. New York Counties Opposed to SAFE Act

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That covers the restrictions on owning automatic weapons. It does not cover "firing" automatic weapons. The firing range legally owns those weapons and are allowed to let others fire them.

There are currently few laws on the legal age of children for firing weapons. New York has a 16 years old law, but that's about it.

Fully automatic firing ranges are big business. Do you think that if that was illegal, they would be operating in plain site with big signs to their places saying experience fully automatic shooting here?

I guess the video I saw was too sanitized. It didn't even say exactly how the death happened. I'm still surprised that they flaunt it.

Steve

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WalkingCarpet

Banned 11 years ago

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yukon Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by WalkingCarpet

Only in America, where they allow 8 year old's to fire Uzis. God that country is F***ed.

Lol what a clown.
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alistair

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Defiantly a poor choice for her to fire the Uzi on auto. I good friend of mine is heavy into guns and a certified instructor. He taught his daughter how to shoot at around 5, but never gave her any gun that wasn't appropriate for her size and training.

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old ffs?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up your gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view. No offence.

I said appropriate for her size.
If you have guns in your home it simply makes sense to train your child as young as possible in gun safety. Part of that is training then in the proper use of a gun.

I could care less what a foreigner thinks about our gun culture.
Especially when they call on us to protect them with our guns or use their own guns to protect themselves. No Offense.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

And this thread is going to get closed....after many political rants.

See? I actually caused those rants by merely stating it.

And now...the graphs...the statistics..the yelling.....the confrontation. Do you know what would stop all that? Nothing.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

And this thread is going to get closed....after many political rants.

See? I actually caused those rants by merely stating it.

Well, fair enough. I did wonder about starting it, to be honest, being aware that "gun rights" are quite a hot button. I think it was the fact that this wasn't "just a gun", but an "Uzi" (even I know vaguely what that is) that made it so striking?

.

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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Well, fair enough. I did wonder about starting it, to be honest, being aware that "gun rights" are quite a hot button. I think it was the fact that this wasn't "just a gun", but an "Uzi" (even I know vaguely what that is) that made it so striking?

.

You'll notice though Alexa that even those of us who are pro guns think there was a whole lot of stupid going on giving this girl an Uzi and letting her fire it on auto.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

You'll notice though Alexa that even those of us who are pro guns think there was a whole lot of stupid going on giving this girl an Uzi and letting her fire it on auto.

Yes ... absolutely, Thom. I was thinking (hoping) there must be quite a lot, in this story, for "both sides" to agree about.

.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Well, fair enough. I did wonder about starting it, to be honest, being aware that "gun rights" are quite a hot button. I think it was the fact that this wasn't "just a gun", but an "Uzi" (even I know vaguely what that is) that made it so striking?

.

The political rants haven't started yet, Alexa.

The rants won't have anything to do with the little girl, or the uzi.

We've just been been through this soooo many times before. I'm not making a prediction, I'm just remembering what happened before. I hope I'm wrong this time.

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sbucciarel Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

There are guns that are appropriate for 5 years old and training that is appropriate for 5 years old. An uzi does not fall into that category. I grew up shooting and loved shooting a little 22 rifle. I knew everything I needed to know about gun safety early on. It was drilled into us as kids because my father was a competition shooter, so guns were always around.

Plinking with a 22 was lots of fun. I don't consider myself part of the "gun culture" as I see it. My father and brother considered themselves sportsmen ... competitive shooters and hunters.

What's tragic about this is not that a stupid instructor got shot in the head. What's tragic is the memory this little girl will always have of killing someone. How the parents and staff of this range could even think that a couple of single shots qualified this little girl to go full auto and handle and control that recoil is beyond me.

But to be fair, us Americans think a lot of foreigners are just as weird and messed up, so in spite of some things that I don't like, I'd still rather be here than there.
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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

With what I've seen lately about some of the really militant groups trying to take hold of your country, it might not seem so "f**ked up" before too long. Who's skirt are you going to hide behind when ISIS decides to start "practicing" in England?

I was taught to shoot when I was around 5. They used to teach kids to handle weapons in school, and it was done right. Giving a 9 year old an uzi was a completely bumbling move. I am an adult and wouldn't want to have to wield something that big.

I'm wondering if he was trying to make a point to her like my dad did to me when he first handed me a gun. He didn't tell me to put it flush against my shoulder and when I pulled the trigger it knocked me down. I had a bruised shoulder for a week, but I also had the proper respect for the power of a gun.

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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

With what I've seen lately about some of the really militant groups trying to take hold of your country, it might not seem so "f**ked up" before too long. Who's skirt are you going to hide behind when ISIS decides to start "practicing" in England?

Speaking of ISIS...this poll is a bit shocking, eh?

One in six French people say they support ISIS - Vox

http://www.icmresearch.com/media-cen...ssiya-segodnya

ICM Research - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers

-don

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Jack Blankenship,RN

11 years ago

Well, as the Church Lady on SNL used to say "Well isn't that special!".......thank you France! We love you, too!

Fully auto weapons have a tendency to travel up. I know that the M16 does. So does the M60, although not quite as badly. I have never fired an UZI, but just from the design of the weapon, I would fear that this would be a huge possibility.

The Range Instructor made a huge mistake in allowing this in the first place. A 22 with virtually no recoil or kick would have been better.

Sadly he made a final and fatal mistake. I am sure that he did NOT anticipate this......what a terrible tragedy.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jack Blankenship,RN

Well, as the Church Lady on SNL used to say "Well isn't that special!".......thank you France! We love you, too!

Fully auto weapons have a tendency to travel up.

Yes indeed, it travels up. This isn't the first go around with a kid and an uzi.

Father Twice Told Uzi Too Powerful for 8-Year-old Christopher Bizilj

The most dramatic moment of the trial came Thursday when the court watched video recorded by Charles Bizilj of the boy handling the gun. The father, who was on the stand at the time, closed his eyes as the video showed the boy struggling to handle the gun's recoil. The barrel reared up and shot the boy in the head. The court room gasped and the boy's mother left the courtroom in tears.
Father of Christopher Bizilj, who Died Firing an Uzi, Was Urged to Let Son Use Less Powerful Gun - ABC News

Originally Posted by Jack Blankenship,RN

Sadly he made a final and fatal mistake. I am sure that he did NOT anticipate this......what a terrible tragedy.

I consider his death just a bit of purging the gene pool of sheer stupidity. The little girl's trauma over this is what is tragic.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

Speaking of ISIS...this poll is a bit shocking, eh?

One in six French people say they support ISIS - Vox

http://www.icmresearch.com/media-cen...ssiya-segodnya

ICM Research - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers

-don

I've been reading german news a lot lately, and my opinion hasn't changed. I trust them MORE in things like this. A US spokeswoman recently said ISIS is NOT against the US and not religious! She said they only fight those that stand in their way.

OK, the first I in isis is islamic. That means has to due with islam. islam is an arabic word meaning submission The arabic word for ONE that submits is muslim. OK, so she said her second statement was false.

On her FIRST, she was talking about it,and the US is kind of required to stand in their way. They threatened the US. So her first statement is wrong ALSO.

So yeah, I don't trust the current government here in this.

Steve

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alistair

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I said appropriate for her size.
If you have guns in your home it simply makes sense to train your child as young as possible in gun safety. Part of that is training then in the proper use of a gun.

That's a good point. Living in a country where we're lucky enough not to have to live with guns I hadn't thought of that.

Originally Posted by ThomM

I could care less what a foreigner thinks about our gun culture.
Especially when they call on us to protect them with our guns or use their own guns to protect themselves. No Offense.

No offence taken.

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ThomM 11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

That's a good point. Living in a country where we're lucky enough not to have to live with guns I hadn't thought of that.

No offence taken.

We don't have to live with guns here either. I haven't owned a gun or had one in my house for years. In fact I got rid of all my guns when I stopped hunting. I also decided I didn't need one for protection. I can assure you though if someone enters my home with bad intentions they will be met with deadly force. The difference between us is I don't care one way or another if someone else has one because I know the vast majority of gun owners are responsible with their guns. If I happen to be around one who isn't then I distance myself from that person.
Even though it may be debatable weather owning a gun is a right or a state granted privilege (I can make arguments supporting both thoughts) I will and will continue to support Americans owning guns.
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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Living in a country where we're lucky enough not to have to live with guns I hadn't thought of that.

Guns, guns, guns...and even one permit for a 7 year old.

Police investigating the deaths of four people shot dead on new year's day in Horden, County Durham have found the killer to have held six gun licences.

Gun ownership in England and Wales | News | theguardian.com

Thirteen children under the age of 10 have been issued with shotgun certificates in the UK over the past three years.The youngest child to be granted a licence was seven years old, figures obtained by BBC News show.

No minimum age
Ten shotgun certificates were issued to nine-year-olds. Two forces - West Mercia and Cumbria - each approved a licence application for an eight-year-old.

BBC News - Shotgun licences given to children under 10, BBC learns

Cheers

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

Alistair ... one child died, and granted, if you add them up, there are more children that die due to gun accidents and gun violence in this country every year, as well as adults.

How do you explain something that I find every bit as horrific?

"Some 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013."

Is this referred to as a "pedophile culture" or culture of rape and sexual abuse?

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Richard Van

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

How do you explain something that I find every bit as horrific?

"Some 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013."

Is this referred to as a "pedophile culture" or culture of rape and sexual abuse?

Suzanne do you know who nearly all those kid fiddlers were?

Genuine question or do you think it's a general thing all people here are doing?

I'm not challenging you or anything I was just interested who you thought was doing it as they're tip toeing around the facts in the news here but it's fairly obvious to most of us here as it's been going on for far too long.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Suzanne do you know who nearly all those kid fiddlers were?

Genuine question or do you think it's a general thing all people here are doing?

I'm not challenging you or anything I was just interested who you thought was doing it as they're tip toeing around the facts in the news here but it's fairly obvious to most of us here as it's been going on for far too long.

Why yes, Richard ... I know who the perps were and I also know who ignored the problem for many years, and that's the real scandal here.

Blatant failures of political and police leadership contributed to the sexual exploitation of 1,400 children in Rotherham over a 16-year period, according to an uncompromising report published in the aftermath of allegations of gang rape and trafficking in the South Yorkshire town.

Written by Prof Alexis Jay, a former chief inspector of social work, the investigation concluded that the council knew as far back as 2005 of sexual exploitation being committed on a wide scale by mostly Asian men, yet failed to act.

This is the fourth report clearly identifying the problem of child sexual exploitation (CSE) in Rotherham. The first, commissioned by the Home Office back in 2002, contained "severe criticisms" of the police and local council for their indifference to what was happening under their noses. But instead of tackling the issue, senior police and council officers claimed the data in the report had been "fabricated or exaggerated", and subjected the report's author to "personal hostility," leading to "suspicions of collusion and cover up", said Jay.

Council and other officials sometimes thought youth workers were exaggerating the exploitation problem. Sometimes they were afraid of being accused of racism if they talked openly about the perpetrators in the town mostly being Pakistani taxi drivers.

Roger Stone, Rotherham's Labour council leader since 2003, said that he had stepped down with immediate effect following the publication of the Jay inquiry. "I believe it is only right that I, as leader, take responsibility on behalf of the council for the historic failings that are described so clearly in the report and it is my intention to do so," he said.

Jahangir Akhtar, the former deputy leader of the council, is accused in the report of naivety and potentially "ignoring a politically inconvenient truth" by insisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. Police told the inquiry that some influential Pakistani councillors in Rotherham acted as barriers to communication on grooming issues.

On a number of occasions, victims of sexual abuse were criminalised - arrested for being drunk - while their abusers continued to act with impunity. Vital evidence was ignored, Jay said, with police apparently trying to manipulate their figures for child sexual exploitation by removing from their monitoring process girls who were pregnant or had given birth, plus all looked after children in care.

Jay concluded that from 1997-2013, Rotherham's most vulnerable girls, some as young as 11, were raped by large numbers of men. Others were trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten, and intimidated, with some children doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight if they told anyone what had happened.

No case involving Rotherham men came to court until November 2010 when five "sexual predators" were convicted of grooming three girls, two aged 13 and one 15, all under children's social care supervision, before using them for sex. In the past 12 months, 15 people have been prosecuted or charged with child sexual exploitation offences in Rotherham.
Failures in Rotherham led to sexual abuse of 1,400 children | Society | The Guardian

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Richard Van

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Why yes, Richard ... I know who the perps were and I also know who ignored the problem for many years, and that's the real scandal here.

Though I agree the labour run council of which I despise is scandalous for not doing anything for fear of racism or the real reason, for fear of losing their votes, I also think the wholesale abuse of the children they raped, sold for sex and even poured petrol over and of course the police for arresting fathers for trying to rescue them and saying the kids brought it on themselves is all equally a scandal for me.

Then again, this country is now so unlike it was when I was born I don't even recognise it half the time and the main reason I won't be living here for much longer.

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Gh0zt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Though I agree the labour run council of which I despise is scandalous for not doing anything for fear of racism or the real reason, for fear of losing their votes, I also think the wholesale abuse of the children they raped, sold for sex and even poured petrol over and of course the police for arresting fathers for trying to rescue them and saying the kids brought it on themselves is all equally a scandal for me.

Then again, this country is now so unlike it was when I was born I don't even recognise it half the time and the main reason I won't be living here for much longer.

I hear that!

(I'm just up the road from you, in Ipswich - I see London often, and Ipswich is like a mini-version of your city - just a lot less of everything)

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HeySal

11 years ago

You realize that around 140 kids drown in pools and spas every year? I think we need to get rid of those things.......because you can have a fatal accident in them.

Planet earth is not user friendly with or without guns. I don't hear outrage when anyone dies any other way - only when it's due to a gun. Who's screaming about the outrageous number of stabbings each year? Got a knife?

This was a tragic accident brought on by someone who should have been thinking about the size of the person he was handing something extremely powerful to control. It's not a reason to call our whole country "f**ked up". Just because you don't have guns you sound off as if no kids ever die via accident or violence anywhere else, no car wrecks, poisoning, drowning, falling, bee allergies, stabbings, nothing. I guess everyone in England survives to adulthood. Must be nice to have such a "flluffy" place to grow up.

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Michael Mayo

11 years ago

I just can't stop thinking about the little girl knowing she will live this on her mind for the rest of her life.
Hopefully being so young she can recover from it knowing it was an accident and she didn't mean for it to happen. God rest his soul and my prayers go out to the child.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

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kindsvater

11 years ago

There are guns that are appropriate for 5 years old ....

Water Squirt Guns
Plastic Guns
Wooden Guns
Finger Guns

.

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kenmichaels

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Water Squirt Guns
Plastic Guns
Wooden Guns
Finger Guns

.

Don't forget the rubber band guns ... all the cools dads made them for there spawn.

-
Interesting enough, I grew up with real guns and in my family ...
we were not allowed to play with "toy" guns ... we were not
allowed to even point fingers and pretend to shoot someone.

It was a real big deal. In my family the reasoning was ...
Never point a gun at someone unless you planned on killing them.
Notice how i did not say ... planned on "shooting" them.

and i have to admit, even though I got to shoot real guns ...
I was super jealous of all the kids who ran around my neighborhood with
"cap" guns ... remember those? ... damn I feel old and still jealous

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Don't forget the rubber band guns ... all the cools dads made them for there spawn.

-
Interesting enough, I grew up with real guns and in my family ...
we were not allowed to play with "toy" guns ... we were not
allowed to even point fingers and pretend to shoot someone.

It was a real big deal. In my family the reasoning was ...
Never point a gun at someone unless you planned on killing them.
Notice how i did not say ... planned on "shooting" them.

and i have to admit, even though I got to shoot real guns ...
I was super jealous of all the kids who ran around my neighborhood with
"cap" guns ... remember those? ... damn I feel old and still jealous

My dad taught me to shoot because we had a gun in the house and he wanted to avoid accidents. He trusted me after that to know the difference between playing with toys and handling the real thing. And I did. My cousin used to shoot animals that got into my grandma's garden with a bee bee gun and that used to make me furious. I actually dug a hole and buried that gun after it resulted in the death of a cute little bunny who was helping itself to some lettuce. Just because you can shoot a gun and know how to use it when needed, and the rule of not pointing it at anything you wouldn't want to kill, doesn't mean you like them or will tolerate them around for anything other than stopping intruders. LOL.

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bizgrower

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Don't forget the rubber band guns ... all the cools dads made them for there spawn.

-
Interesting enough, I grew up with real guns and in my family ...
we were not allowed to play with "toy" guns ... we were not
allowed to even point fingers and pretend to shoot someone.

It was a real big deal. In my family the reasoning was ...
Never point a gun at someone unless you planned on killing them.
Notice how i did not say ... planned on "shooting" them.

and i have to admit, even though I got to shoot real guns ...
I was super jealous of all the kids who ran around my neighborhood with
"cap" guns ... remember those? ... damn I feel old and still jealous

Keep your eyes out for mail from Riffle.

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Dan Riffle 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Keep your eyes out for mail from Riffle.

Could you imagine if I sent a toy gun to the wrong Ken Michaels? I'd probably get labeled a terrorist and thrown in Gitmo.
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- bizgrower 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Could you imagine if I sent a toy gun to the wrong Ken Michaels? I'd probably get labeled a terrorist and thrown in Gitmo.
  
  If you keep the ammo separate, you'll be fine.
  
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- kenmichaels 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Could you imagine if I sent a toy gun to the wrong Ken Michaels? I'd probably get labeled a terrorist and thrown in Gitmo.
  
  Now that would be funny.
  
  Yes, yes i am a sick twisted individual. I know this ... It is one of
  my single greatest triumphs in life.
  
  The other is not laughing at claude the moment he starts yapping ....
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Water Squirt Guns
Plastic Guns
Wooden Guns
Finger Guns

Well, no training or education on real guns when the parents are gun owners, and there are real guns in a house with children can be a fatal mistake. My father had them all over the place and at 5, we really had no interest in them except for Oooo ... Ahhhh ... but boy, did we get an education in gun safety. It was drilled and drilled and drilled into our heads.

Neither my brother or I would ever pick up a gun, even one that we were told was not loaded, and aim it at a person. In fact, at 5, we would not have picked up any gun in the house without permission and supervision from my father. We knew, at 5 years old, that guns handled inappropriately, could kill someone.

When you consider that the average use for plastic guns, wooden guns, squirt guns and finger guns and even slingshots, is to aim them at your friends and pretend that you are killing them, it would be really irresponsible for a gun owning parent not to begin gun safety education at the very earliest age.

My mother was always very uncomfortable with toy guns for that very reason. She didn't want us to take joy in pretending to kill or shoot other people. So she would not buy us toy guns, although being kids ... we did gain access through other kids (and we didn't end up being serial killers, after all).

I can't remember the first time I fired a 22. I doubt that it was 5, but it was young, and it was a thrill. I loved it ... my brother did too. Tin cans on logs and the .22 to knock them off were great fun. By the time that we did fire a gun, we had so much gun safety education drilled into us that we knew exactly how to handle guns.

So, kids who have all those toy guns and are allowed to play like they're killing people, without any thought for teaching gun safety because the parents down own a real gun, how safe are they and those around them when they go to a friend's house and see a real gun, after just blowing Jimmy away with a toy gun?

This story was actually about a 9 year old and there are real guns that are appropriate for 9 year old to learn to shoot. It's just pure idiocy to think that an Uzi is one of those.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

When you consider that the average use for plastic guns, wooden guns, squirt guns and finger guns and even slingshots, is to aim them at your friends and pretend that you are killing them, it would be really irresponsible for a gun owning parent not to begin gun safety education at the very earliest age.

My mother was always very uncomfortable with toy guns for that very reason. She didn't want us to take joy in pretending to kill or shoot other people. So she would not buy us toy guns, although being kids ... we did gain access through other kids (and we didn't end up being serial killers, after all).

That's a phenomenally well thought out argument.

Originally Posted by alistair

When is a gun ever appropriate for a 5 year old?

I can't put into words just how f***ed up Americas gun culture seems from a foreigners point of view.

Not just foreigners. The backlash to your comment is more about a perceived attack on our country, than any real argument about the point you made.

Most Americans aren't that interested in guns. And the vast majority of gun enthusiasts are extremely responsible.

But I agree, to someone (foreign or domestic) who wouldn't own a gun, it would seem bizarre to own several guns, and shoot them as a sport. And truly, only a very small minority of gun enthusiasts are ...well......loud.

Suzanne made a compelling argument though. She may have just changed my mind on the subject.

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Rick Rodd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Water Squirt Guns
Plastic Guns
Wooden Guns
Finger Guns

.

BB Guns and Nerf guns included.

Well, we got a lot of excellent preteen soldiers in the making. Most of them I have engaged in battle in Call of Duty. Sad thing is, they also claimed that they've made love with my mother!

Just to make this thread more interesting, I just can't believe a girl could use a gun. They are only good for making me sandwiches.

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Richard Van

11 years ago

What those across the pond do isn't really anyone outside of Americas business but I certainly found it incredible that an Uzi on auto was used.

Mind you the IS is arming kids as young as that and strapping them up with bomb vests. At least this was a tragic, albeit somewhat lacking in common sense, accident.

Amazing that in this little island they even banned conkers in case it bruised the little kids hands.

Schools banning conkers and leapfrog over safety fears - Telegraph

Originally Posted by alistair

That's a good point. Living in a country where we're lucky enough not to have to live with guns I hadn't thought of that.

There are plenty of guns here chap, plenty. You're just much more likely to be stabbed instead.

Originally Posted by HeySal

With what I've seen lately about some of the really militant groups trying to take hold of your country, it might not seem so "f**ked up" before too long. Who's skirt are you going to hide behind when ISIS decides to start "practicing" in England?

They are practicing here, they've even marched through London, there are hundreds of them out there now and they'll be back soon enough.

Believe me Sal, growing up where I did and I have predicted that coming for a long, long time.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that because some people don't take to the streets every five minutes to protest and incite violence, it doesn't mean they've got blinkers on.

I certainly haven't.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

What those across the pond do isn't really anyone outside of Americas business but I certainly found it incredible that an Uzi on auto was used.[/URL]

I don't there's a single gun owner in this thread that supports automatic Uzis for kids. I have yet to see a single news article supporting it "yet" either. By all accounts, it was stupid.

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Richard Van

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't there's a single gun owner in this thread that supports automatic Uzis for kids. I have yet to see a single news article supporting it "yet" either. By all accounts, it was stupid.

No I don't either. It's none of my business though. I don't think it's anyone outside of Americas business.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't there's a single gun owner in this thread that supports automatic Uzis for kids. I have yet to see a single news article supporting it "yet" either. By all accounts, it was stupid.

It's not generally legal in the US! For a 9 year old, I would start them off with a 22 or a bbgun. Ironically, the 22 might even be safer than a bb gun, because you KNOW they will, at SOME point, pump a bbgun with NO regard for the trigger or muzzle. The 22 has less kickback and is a bit less dangerous than a 9mm.

Steve

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alistair 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

There are plenty of guns here chap, plenty. You're just much more likely to be stabbed instead.

Why do you think we're more likely to get stabbed than shot?

Originally Posted by Richard Van

They are practicing here, they've even marched through London, there are hundreds of them out there now and they'll be back soon enough.

Let them march through London, Birmingham or wherever else they want to. That way they can be identified and kept track off, which we do a pretty good job of if you ask me.
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- Richard Van 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by alistair
  
  Why do you think we're more likely to get stabbed than shot?
  
  Well one thing Alistair it's slightly easier to conceal a small blade than a gun and secondly and I don't have stats to hand so feel free to make me eat my hat but I suspect there have been more stabbings this year than shootings.
  
  I might be wrong of course and gang culture gets hold of more guns all the time but take our beautiful Nottinghill carnival. How many have been shot there? I don't recollect any of the top of my head but I'll tell you this, carnival wouldn't be carnival without at least one stabbing.
  
  EDIT. I've deleted the rest of this post as we're going a bit political, if you think we track them well, fair enough. We can agree to disagree on that.
  
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bizgrower

11 years ago

I heard the gun range owner quoted as saying it was against their policy to have the gun on auto with someone that young.

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ThomM 11 years ago

But even as an adult now, I really have no confidence in my ability to handle high powered recoil.

I know this isn't a very macho thing to say, but me either. I got into black powder rifles for awhile because of the lack of recoil. I had a 50 cal. which I discovered could be pretty accurate at 50 yards with 90 gr. of powder (and if I remember right) around a 240 gr. Sabot. I tried 120gr. of powder with around a 290 gr. sabot once and was almost knocked on my butt
I will admit I wouldn't mind having another 50 cal. and I'd also like a Weatherby Mark V .240 mag. But both are a long way down on my list of things I want.
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seasoned

11 years ago

It IS a shame. I feel sorry for that little girl, and how she may have to live with that memory forever. I hope it doesn't hurt her.

ThomM, I'm glad things may be swinging in the right direction. Seriously, the same ideas just keep coming up, and everyone thinks THEY thought of them first. This country almost didn't happen because such an idea was conceived. So it obviously predates the US. It is NOT a new idea.

One of the ways that the US was considered unique was that it was founded on the idea that the government was to be a GOVERNMENT! A body that only GOVERNED the people and did NOT rule them. The limits were even spelled out. It is a pity that the constitution is not considered so meaningful today. The idea was that the government would be beholden to the PEOPLE!

But YEAH, such things built this country, and got its independence, and they wanted this to stay a free country.

People here talk about robinhood taking from the rich and giving to the poor. What a bunch of GARBAGE! Look at the REAL myth some time! He was NOT taking from the rich! He was taking taxes and the like BACK from the GOVERNMENT COLLECTORS! The collectors would be vicious and extort taxes in excess of even what they were to bring back. Even in the Bible, the tax collectors are seen as lowly and sinful. Back then, they didn't even have the corporations people blame today. The closest thing were a few families that built huge fortresses and fought for dominance, that then spread out and "provided protection and patronage". THEY eventually became the royal families and started most of the countries today to some degree. It was apparently not much different than the middle east or africa of today. If you had bows, instead of guns, and knights instead of tanks, maybe catapults instead of planes, and horses instead of ICEs, I don't imagine it would look much different.

Steve

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Mikaedi

11 years ago

I saw this on the news and was totally astounded that any Parent in their right mind would allow their child so young to handle such a dangerous weapon. and on a firing range. the instructor got his just deserts for being such an idiot..the Parents should be charged with child neglect and abuse at the very least..the recoil on fully auto would be too much for a young child to handle.

That this young girl should even be in a position where she has actually killed someone. the poor child, she must be feeling really guilty.

US gun laws are a bloody disgrace where young children are allowed to handle and use weapons like this..I'm shocked and stunned.

Mikaedi

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mikaedi

I saw this on the news and was totally astounded that any Parent in their right mind would allow their child so young to handle such a dangerous weapon. and on a firing range. the instructor got his just deserts for being such an idiot..the Parents should be charged with child neglect and abuse at the very least..the recoil on fully auto would be too much for a young child to handle.

That this young girl should even be in a position where she has actually killed someone. the poor child, she must be feeling really guilty.

US gun laws are a bloody disgrace where young children are allowed to handle and use weapons like this..I'm shocked and stunned.

Mikaedi

Some kids have been SAVED because they fired guns, etc... The problem is NOT the gun! It is the idea of a FULL automatic and society. As for the parents? If I had a daughter, I would teach her MYSELF! But I would WAIT before teaching about any full auto things. I mean WHY teach that to a kid so young?

Steve

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discrat

11 years ago

What a crazy ass gun lover

Funny, I have no desire to ever shoot guns.

Either for Hobby, Sport, or in protecting yourself.

I don't get the fascination with Guns. What a stupid ,waste of time

I would rather throw horse shoes instead .

Sorry to all you gun aficionados. Just my opinion

I was not raised with one in our household and I will be damned if I would ever consider one in my own household now.

The Risk/Reward is just waaaaaay to high.

Individuals do have a Right to have one and protect themselves.

But honest to goodness the more Guns in our Society, the more Death will occur across the Board

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

What a crazy ass gun lover

Funny, I have no desire to ever shoot guns.

Either for Hobby, Sport, or in protecting yourself.

I don't get the fascination with Guns. What a stupid ,waste of time

I would rather throw horse shoes instead .

Sorry to all you gun aficionados. Just my opinion

I was not raised with one in our household and I will be damned if I would ever consider one in my own household now.

The Risk/Reward is just waaaaaay to high.

Individuals do have a Right to have one and protect themselves.

But honest to goodness the more Guns in our Society, the more Death will occur across the Board

Four liberals recently were taken to a gun range. ALL hated the idea of guns. Out of the four:

ALL FOUR LIKED IT!
ALL FOUR APPRECIATED THE EXPERIENCE!
ALL FOUR would have been ok with all others having the same experience.
ONE SEEMED TO LIKE IT OVERALL, but it took a lot out of her. In a closed range, the pressure CAN get to you. It can feel almost like someone punched you in the chest. And you DEFINITELY want ear protection!
ONE HATED that she LIKED it so much! She FOUGHT the happiness.
ONE wanted to COME BACK!
ONE, out of the four, only ONE wanted to really stay with his original zeal. He liked it, and said it would be FINE if it stayed there, but he thinks it is a DISGRACE that we are on the list, even if we ARE one of the least dangerous, and have the most guns!

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Four liberals recently were taken to a gun range. ALL hated the idea of guns. Out of the four:
Steve

Breaking News!!!
Democrats and Liberals have been gun owners, hunters and competitive shooters for an eternity. They just don't see any burning need to wear them like jewelry in restaurants, malls and churches.

Originally Posted by discrat

I would rather throw horse shoes instead .

Sorry to all you gun aficionados. Just my opinion

I don't get the fascination with horse shoes. I mean, if you throw them strategically at someone's head, you could kill them.

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Breaking News!!!
Democrats and Liberals have been gun owners, hunters and competitive shooters for an eternity. They just don't see any burning need to wear them like jewelry in restaurants, malls and churches.

I don't get the fascination with horse shoes. I mean, if you throw them strategically at someone's head, you could kill them.

I don't even remotely see the fascination with horseshoes at all.

(Note : I guess that must speak volumes to what I think about the fascination with Guns, doesn't it ?)

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Rick Rodd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I don't even remotely see the fascination with horseshoes at all.

(Note : I guess that must speak volumes to what I think about the fascination with Guns, doesn't it ?)

I'm fascinated with horseshoes...guns, not quite.

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Richard Van 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

I'm fascinated with horseshoes...guns, not quite.

You'll love these, Nike Air Ponys.

Or you could combine your love of horse shoes with guns?
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

I'm fascinated with horseshoes...guns, not quite.

Even that needs a bit of perspective. There's a huge range of reasons to own guns ... some of them pretty cool ... others, not so much.

My father was an avid hunter. Deer was his primary target. We didn't grow up rich, but the freezer was always full of venison. We ate a lot better than we would have had he not been a hunter.

He was also a competitive shooter. That's called a hobby and it's nothing but good, clean fun for those who enjoy it. A day on the range, goals to strive for, medals and honors to win. What's wrong with that picture? Nothing, really. Teens and pre-teens also get involved, much like 4H Clubs.

Then there's collectors. They just want to own rare or valuable guns. Another pretty harmless hobby.

Then there's self protection. I don't own a weapon for self protection, but I respect the right to own a gun for self protection and the good sense to have one if you feel threatened where you live and hang out.

Then we have criminals who own guns, gangs who have guns. Primary purpose ... to harm people. If we could eliminate that segment of the gun ownership population, exactly what would be wrong with gun ownership? Nothing, really.

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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Even that needs a bit of perspective. There's a huge range of reasons to own guns ... some of them pretty cool ... others, not so much.

My father was an avid hunter. Deer was his primary target. We didn't grow up rich, but the freezer was always full of venison. We ate a lot better than we would have had he not been a hunter.

Thats cool ! I love venison too. Eat what you kill

What I cant stand is the 'head mounters'. You know the ones who kill a big buck and get photos with them posing in the picture with their hands around its horns while this beautiful creature lies dead in its own blood.

And then cutting the head off and putting it on their wall without ever actually eating the thing for food.

That is just disrespecting God's creatures

I just soon as mount that persons head on the wall, really

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Breaking News!!!
Democrats and Liberals have been gun owners, hunters and competitive shooters for an eternity.

Who didn't know that? ICSM

They just don't see any burning need to wear them like jewelry in restaurants, malls and churches.

Can you please tell THEM that they merely feel that way? THEY are saying they don't want them PERIOD!!!!!

I don't get the fascination with horse shoes. I mean, if you throw them strategically at someone's head, you could kill them.

And they say I am off the wall! Horse shoes probably gained popularity in some blacksmith shop, or horse area, because they lend themselves that that kind of game, and were available. I DOUBT it had ANYTHING to do with the name, or ties to the horse.

Steve
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- Richard Van 11 years ago
  
  Are we really actually going to move onto horse shoes now?
  
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  Dan Riffle 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Richard Van
  
  Are we really actually going to move onto horse shoes now?
  
  That's just how we roll in the OT.
  
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  Rick Rodd 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  That's just how we roll in the OT.
  
  Or trot, or gallop for that matter.
  
  Horseshoes are just as dangerous as guns. We should create awareness for it.
  
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ThomM

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Breaking News!!!
Democrats and Liberals have been gun owners, hunters and competitive shooters for an eternity. They just don't see any burning need to wear them like jewelry in restaurants, malls and churches.

I don't get the fascination with horse shoes. I mean, if you throw them strategically at someone's head, you could kill them.

I play horseshoes every Monday. Injuries are pretty common in my group (we all pretty much suck at horseshoes). I was hit in the knee earlier in the summer. First time ever in my life that I almost puked and passed out from the pain.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I play horseshoes every Monday. Injuries are pretty common in my group (we all pretty much suck at horseshoes). I was hit in the knee earlier in the summer. First time ever in my life that I almost puked and passed out from the pain.

lol. Tried it a couple of times, but I was too dangerous with horse shoes.

These are my favorite horse shoes. I must have a pair of both the tall and short ones.

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ThomM

11 years ago

lol. Tried it a couple of times, but I was too dangerous with horse shoes.

Our problem is the way the pits are built. The guy that built them used 2x6's for the walls on both sides and the back. So when a shoe hits the wall it bounces off.
If we had regulation pits that wouldn't be a problem.

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

What I cant stand is the 'head mounters'. You know the ones who kill a big buck and get photos with them posing in the picture with their hands around its horns while this beautiful creature lies dead in its own blood.

And then cutting the head off and putting it on their wall without ever actually eating the thing for food.

Does that happen often? I grew up around hunters and hunted for food myself when I was younger, but I've never known a single person that would leave a dead deer behind. Even the guys that mount the heads for a trophy always ate the venison.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Does that happen often? I grew up around hunters and hunted for food myself when I was younger, but I've never known a single person that would leave a dead deer behind. Even the guys that mount the heads for a trophy always ate the venison.

Says the man who would probably feed a baby deer by hand, and leave food out for the squirrels.

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Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Says the man who would probably feed a baby deer by hand, and leave food out for the squirrels.

I sure would feed a baby deer by hand if I could get one to come that close.

As for the squirrel food, my wife takes care of that. Rabbits eat her offerings, too. Then she complains when the rabbits eat our hosta leaves.

So, every summer she spends like $30 for this urine in a spray bottle stuff to keep the rabbits from eating the leaves. I suggested she probably wouldn't need it if she'd quit inviting them over for lunch with her generous food shares.

Well, she thinks they'll starve if she don't feed them, so forget that. I said we could just go pee on the plants ourselves instead of buying that expensive urine. She said, "What about the neighbors?" I said we could invite them over to pee in our yard too. That didn't fly either.

Women, sheesh.
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discrat

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Does that happen often? I grew up around hunters and hunted for food myself when I was younger, but I've never known a single person that would leave a dead deer behind. Even the guys that mount the heads for a trophy always ate the venison.

There's no reason to hang a Buck's head on your wall. Period !!

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

There's no reason to hang a Buck's head on your wall. Period !!

Really? Sounds like you're in love with your own opinion.

How about someone who kills for food mounts the head out of respect and appreciation for the animal and the food it provides?

You're judging everyone else through your own bias on the subject. I would guess there are many good reasons someone would do that. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not going to judge everyone who does by my preferences and/or limited perceptions.

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Frank Donovan 11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

There's no reason to hang a Buck's head on your wall. Period !!

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

How about someone who kills for food mounts the head out of respect and appreciation for the animal and the food it provides?

Or perhaps to practise your English?

Manuel Practices His English - Fawlty Towers -...
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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

How about someone who kills for food mounts the head out of respect and appreciation for the animal and the food it provides?

Honestly Dennis..I also grew up around hunters. And the mounted head was always a trophy. I'm not saying that's it's always the case, only that I've never seen a deer head mounted out of respect for the animal (except that the animal is magnificent to look at.) And I've also never seen a hunter kill a large animal, and just leave it. Two ideas I've never witnessed.

We ate the meat, but we didn't need it to survive.

My entire childhood, I never understood why we went hunting. Killing an unaware animal from a safe distance. I never told my Dad that I always missed on purpose. It just seemed so unfair. He just thought I was a terrible shot. My Dad or Uncles would shoot a deer, congratulate each other....there wasn't any animosity or meanness in them...they didn't want the animal to feel pain.....they just didn't see it like I did.

My Dad could shoot a deer and feel nothing for it. But he would cry for an hour if he had to put a dog or cat down, because it was in severe pain. I never asked him about it, but I never understood it.

And I watched this....Rooting for the deer.

Whitetail Deer attacks Hunter - YouTube

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

We ate the meat, but we didn't need it to survive.

My entire childhood, I never understood why we went hunting. Killing an unaware animal from a safe distance. I never told my Dad that I always missed on purpose. It just seemed so unfair.

Do you feel equally as bad for the cows, pigs and chickens raised in deplorable conditions on industrial farms and slaughtered without ever knowing the joy of freedom and living a part of their lives out in a natural environment?

... and what about the vegetables. All I'm saying is ... "give peas a chance"

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Do you feel equally as bad for the cows, pigs and chickens raised in deplorable conditions on industrial farms and slaughtered without ever knowing the joy of freedom and living a part of their lives out in a natural environment?

... and what about the vegetables. All I'm saying is ... "give peas a chance"

I get the question, and the thought behind it. My perception is my own.

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Honestly Dennis..I also grew up around hunters. And the mounted head was always a trophy. I'm not saying that's it's always the case, only that I've never seen a deer head mounted out of respect for the animal (except that the animal is magnificent to look at.)

I'm glad you acknowledged that it's not always the case, because we all live in a very small world. Just because we're unaware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I get to quietly relive my most precious memories, I get to pay tribute to the animal I killed forever. [Emphasis mine]
- Gryan

I used to play ball with a taxidermist. I never once visited his shop even though I drove by it routinely coming and going from/to my sister's house. I just didn't want to see all the dead animals. I'm not into killing animals and haven't since I was about 15 or 16.

Sometimes after a game we'd have a few beers and talk about a lot of things, including taxidermy. Some people do mount heads out of appreciation/respect/whatever you want to call it.
Some do it as a superstition. Some do it because they believe the beauty and memory of the animal lives on that way. Some do it to keep their mother-in-law away.

OK, I made up the one about the mother-in-law.

Most do it as a trophy, I understand that. But to say there's never a good reason for a mounted head is nothing but personal bias, which was my whole point.

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bizgrower

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Some do it to keep their mother-in-law away.

OK, I made up the one about the mother-in-law. ;.

lol. Managing a mountain lodge, I do occasionally get astute people calling to ask how many trophy heads we have. It's because somebody they are traveling with cannot stand them - does not want to see them. (We have one deer head in our lobby. It's been here longer than I have been here. When kids ask how it go there, I love telling 'em that it ran through the wall. 4 and unders seem to believe that tale.)

<>

I eat meat, but don't like to think about how it got to my plate. I have never tried a vegan diet and think we are carnivores, and often feel like I have to eat meat to get full. The food chain is there for a reason, IMHO. I am; however, for whirled peas.

I used to live in a very remote part of the mountains and had a neighbor who was born in that part and never left. She is a magnificent dog trainer and breeder. She won't eat Colorado elk because she
believes that chronic wasting disease has progressed too far. Yes, she knows all about testing first.

<>

In the USA, I doubt a legal hunter is going to just take the head. Using Colorado as an example,
I think that would come under the heading of reckless slaughter (It's too late at night for me to come up with the real legal terminology. State and Federal laws likely apply.)

I just had a guest who came here to legally hunt Mountain Goat or Big Horn Sheep (I forgot which).
He finally got one. But after being shot, it fell down a ravine and was very, very difficult to retrieve. Even under that scenario, he and his professional guide would have been in very big legal trouble if they did not retrieve it.

Guide licenses are so rare and hard to get that they are usually passed down from generation to generation. They are not going to risk that. Likewise for hunters who want to get another license.

Dan

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

lol. Managing a mountain lodge, I do occasionally get astute people calling to ask how many trophy heads we have. It's because somebody they are traveling with cannot stand them - does not want to see them. (We have one deer head in our lobby. It's been here longer than I have been here. When kids ask how it go there, I love telling 'em that it ran through the wall. 4 and unders seem to believe that tale.)

While I was joking about the mother-in-law thing, it would not surprise me if a few people actually did that.

Deer and other animals really do run through walls and get stuck. I saw it on a cartoon once, so it must be true.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

There's no reason to hang a Buck's head on your wall. Period !!

Well, maybe if everyone in the world believed as you believe, there would be no reason, but that isn't the case.

I've never seen a hunter leave the body of a deer in the woods and only take the head. That doesn't mean it's never happened, but it's not common. I've known numerous deer hunters who don't want the meat, but bring it home to give it away to those who love it. We've gotten a lot of good deer meat that way.

If someone wants a deer head on their wall, that's really their choice to make.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well, maybe if everyone in the world believed as you believe, there would be no reason, but that isn't the case.

I've never seen a hunter leave the body of a deer in the woods and only take the head. That doesn't mean it's never happened, but it's not common. I've known numerous deer hunters who don't want the meat, but bring it home to give it away to those who love it. We've gotten a lot of good deer meat that way.

If someone wants a deer head on their wall, that's really their choice to make.

Some people REALLY REALLY REALLY want that rack! STILL, all that time and they won't bring the body back for nice feast, etc? Yeah, I have known some people that hunted, read magazines on hunting, really looked at sports equipment for it, and I NEVER heard of ANYONE just taking the head either,

HECK, I've been to no less than three restaurants that SPECIALIZE in such meet. My father and step mom had their mainland wedding reception held in such a place. I say mainland, because they got married in Hawaii, and they likely had one there also.

BESIDES, you don't generally use hand guns to bring down deer. They have special slugs for shotguns to do that.

BTW There are people that want just about ALL parts of a deer. NOTHING has to go to waste, It IS a shame the deer can't just live, but blame SOCIETY for that, because if we had no guns, they would STILL kill deer!

Steve

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Claude Whitacre 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

if we had no guns, they would STILL kill deer!

Steve

No. If there were no guns, I would be the leader of ...Rise Of The Planet Of The Deer!
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ForumGuru

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I play horseshoes every Monday. Injuries are pretty common in my group (we all pretty much suck at horseshoes). I was hit in the knee earlier in the summer. First time ever in my life that I almost puked and passed out from the pain.

Thom,

I actually own one of these vintage Ringer machines and it's a blast. The wheel is weighted like a horseshoe and the motion is similar to a real toss. The game is quite fun and injuries are rare!

1970 Williams Ringer - YouTube

The guy in the video kinda sucks....he does not score a ringer so you don't hear the loud ding, ding, ding, ding when you actually nail the post.

Cheers

-don

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sabuncakis

11 years ago

this is child

)))))

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Richard Van 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sabuncakis

this is child )))))

Yes that's right.

Jolly well done.

I'd give you a gold star if we were at school.
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Gh0zt

11 years ago

I ain't even going to write what I was going to write... as this board is contradictory and I don't want to get banned....

"Off-Topic - Anything Goes"
click to get inside and....
"No religious or political talk allowed"

Oh, well that goes against the first rule then doesn't it?

What else is there to talk about? Football, cars and girls?

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Rick Rodd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gh0zt

I ain't even going to write what I was going to write... as this board is contradictory and I don't want to get banned....

"Off-Topic - Anything Goes"
click to get inside and....
"No religious or political talk allowed"

Oh, well that goes against the first rule then doesn't it?

What else is there to talk about? Football, cars and girls?

It's all good... they're talking about sex and violence.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gh0zt

I ain't even going to write what I was going to write... as this board is contradictory and I don't want to get banned....

"Off-Topic - Anything Goes"
click to get inside and....
"No religious or political talk allowed"

Oh, well that goes against the first rule then doesn't it?

What else is there to talk about? Football, cars and girls?

Let me put it in perspective for you. This thread is about someone doing something really stupid ... actually the parents and the instructor doing something really stupid by letting a child handle an uzi on automatic. That really isn't a political issue until people make it one and start throwing around the terms liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans.

That is when topics that border on political issues become inflammatory ... when partisan bashing is allowed.

Thus far, everyone in this thread, irregardless of their political persuasion, agrees that this was pure stupidity. The amount of agreement on this issue is practically unprecedented here in OT ... lol.

So to recap ... under the old management, moderators had leeway to let threads continue as long as they didn't evolve into partisan food fights. Under new management, it sill somewhat seems to go that way.

Religious threads die much quicker because those so inclined just can't help quoting scripture constantly in them, thereby making purely religious arguments.

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Richard Van

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Let me put it in perspective for you. This thread is about someone doing something really stupid ... actually the parents and the instructor doing something really stupid by letting a child handle an uzi on automatic.

Yeah sorry Gh0zt, Alistair and I are discussing something off topic in an off topic thread in the off topic forum. It's a bit political and religious too so probably best we stop.

My apologies.

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Gh0zt

11 years ago

Edit - better delete my religious post then...

Let us continue talking about stupidity of these gun instructers....

But - how can this not turn into a political debate? When you just know the anti-gun pushing lobbies in America love stories like this: they will use these examples to dis-arm your nation [to your own peril].

You know what... I don't think I belong in this part of the forum lol. It is contradictory from the outset, like I said:

On the outside it says: Anything Goes...
On the inside it says: No religious or political talk...

That means: zero integrity - I don't belong here, can't get along here, I'm gone to hang in a different part of the forum.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gh0zt

Edit - better delete my religious post then...

Let us continue talking about stupidity of these gun instructers....

But - how can this not turn into a political debate? When you just know the anti-gun pushing lobbies in America love stories like this: they will use these examples to dis-arm your nation [to your own peril].

You know what... I don't think I belong in this part of the forum lol. It is contradictory from the outset, like I said:

On the outside it says: Anything Goes...
On the inside it says: No religious or political talk...

That means: zero integrity - I don't belong here, can't get along here, I'm gone to hang in a different part of the forum.

Honestly, maybe you don't ... but "we" like it this way. But please don't make this a political thread. I really enjoy a thread on guns when we agree with the basic premise. It's rare, so let it go.

We don't need people who interpret the rules in the strictest sense. We like our spirited discussions here. The other forums have gotten so tedious to even read.

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Rick Rodd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Honestly, maybe you don't ... but "we" like it this way. But please don't make this a political thread. I really enjoy a thread on guns when we agree with the basic premise. It's rare, so let it go.

We don't need people who interpret the rules in the strictest sense. We like our spirited discussions here. The other forums have gotten so tedious to even read.

Hello Kitty approves this post.

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Richard Van

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gh0zt

On the outside it says: Anything Goes...
On the inside it says: No religious or political talk...

That means: zero integrity - I don't belong here, can't get along here, I'm gone to hang in a different part of the forum.

We can discuss things without it going tits up. Political stuff does happen but it's mainly American politics discussed and we're pretty clueless there anyway and the two sides never see eye to eye so it can get ugly. Fine to discuss it though.

Religious discussion is fine too, it's just discouraged because on the one hand you have believers and the other hand non believers and they simply can't discuss anything and so it gets ugly.

Sensible discussion happens a lot but this is the bar area of the forum, it involves drink and sometimes the odd fight happens.

If you have an opinion on this just say it and as Susanne said, I don't think anyone here thinks what happened was a sensible thing to do. Certainly not an Uzi on auto.

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whateverpedia 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gh0zt

I'm gone to hang in a different part of the forum.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

whooops .. didn't know the pic was that big. lol.

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Rick Rodd

11 years ago

Whose urine is it? $30, really? Almost the same price as a box of uzi bullets?

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Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

Whose urine is it? $30, really? Almost the same price as a box of uzi bullets?

I assume some kind of predator urine, I'd have to go look at the bottle to find out if the species is named. It's about $15 a bottle, and she uses two bottles each summer. I will say one thing -- it really STINKS! It may have other ingredients in it too, I've never really taken a close look at it.
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SteveJohnson

11 years ago

I saw Claude's video of the deer attacking the hunter.

I grew up in northeast Oregon, where deer and elk hunting was the thing. They even closed the schools on the first day of deer season because half the kids or more wouldn't be there anyway.

One year a hunter went missing. He had ridden his horse into the back country. His horse came back two weeks later, the hunter didn't. There was a big search, but too much snow to make much headway.

They found him the next spring, his ribs tangled up in the antlers of a 6-point (12-point for you easterners) deer that wasn't far out of the record books for size. Evidently, he had shot it then walked up to it to finish it off (a handgun was laying close to him) and the deer decided not to go out alone.

Nature gets her revenge, occasionally.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

I saw Claude's video of the deer attacking the hunter.

I grew up in northeast Oregon, where deer and elk hunting was the thing. They even closed the schools on the first day of deer season because half the kids or more wouldn't be there anyway.

One year a hunter went missing. He had ridden his horse into the back country. His horse came back two weeks later, the hunter didn't. There was a big search, but too much snow to make much headway.

They found him the next spring, his ribs tangled up in the antlers of a 6-point (12-point for you easterners) deer that wasn't far out of the record books for size. Evidently, he had shot it then walked up to it to finish it off (a handgun was laying close to him) and the deer decided not to go out alone.

Nature gets her revenge, occasionally.

I know hunters aren't evil people. And I understand hunting for meat. Every hunter I've known, didn't want the animal to suffer (I'm talking about deer hunting. I've watched guys shoot small animals just because it was fun. To me, that's evil.).

I just don't see it as sport. Looking at a full grown Buck with huge antlers...even from 50 feet, is a magnificent creature. Powerful. Destroying it with a gun...from a safe distance...just doesn't feel like sport to me.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know hunters aren't evil people. And I understand hunting for meat. Every hunter I've known, didn't want the animal to suffer (I'm talking about deer hunting. I've watched guys shoot small animals just because it was fun. To me, that's evil.).

I just don't see it as sport. Looking at a full grown Buck with huge antlers...even from 50 feet, is a magnificent creature. Powerful. Destroying it with a gun...from a safe distance...just doesn't feel like sport to me.

Frankly, I don't see any such thing as a sport. But society has declared it to be a sport.

Still, human society seems to be set on enabling all to procreate as fast as possible. Later provide housing and food as fast as possible. This means deer can not survive, and land must be wiped out. I saw this coming even as a little kid, but didn't fathom have much of it would happen in my short life.

I spoke earlier in absolutes. They simply require society to be as it has been for over 60 years to become FACT! WHEN? It could take 200 years, or it may be just 10. In theory, it can easily happen within 20 years. We are THAT close!

Anyway, most predators have been reduced a lot, so deer must be reduced to keep a balance. This will simply get WORSE! LYME disease, for example, happened because of encroachment on deer territory, and not keeping the deer in check. LYME disease so happens to be spread by a deer tick. They prefer deer.

Ironically, this procreation is destroying human society as much as other areas, and is replacing bears, lions, and tigers, with human predators, that we call criminals.

Steve

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bizgrower

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know hunters aren't evil people. And I understand hunting for meat. Every hunter I've known, didn't want the animal to suffer (I'm talking about deer hunting. I've watched guys shoot small animals just because it was fun. To me, that's evil.).

I just don't see it as sport. Looking at a full grown Buck with huge antlers...even from 50 feet, is a magnificent creature. Powerful. Destroying it with a gun...from a safe distance...just doesn't feel like sport to me.

I agree. Plus, it seems like a lot of work. Where I live, it can be days of hiking (9,000 feet elevation or more),and driving until you find the prey. Then, sometimes, a miles long hike or climb to retrieve and carry it out - if you get anything. Sometimes -as an ex-boss experienced - an off season blizzard and the road out is blocked by somebody in a dually truck with bald tires.

To each his own, but in all my life, I've only had a couple of bites of venison because deer and elk are such magnificent creatures. If I were in law enforcement, though, I'd try to look the other way is someone poached because he or she had to feed the family.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know hunters aren't evil people. And I understand hunting for meat. Every hunter I've known, didn't want the animal to suffer (I'm talking about deer hunting. I've watched guys shoot small animals just because it was fun. To me, that's evil.).

I just don't see it as sport. Looking at a full grown Buck with huge antlers...even from 50 feet, is a magnificent creature. Powerful. Destroying it with a gun...from a safe distance...just doesn't feel like sport to me.

Long before it was a sport, it was survival, and still is in many places.

We don't eat deer meat as a nice little change of pace. It is the primary meat that we eat, along with other game. It is our preferred meat. I've eaten more deer meat and wild game than beef in my lifetime.

We also grow some of our own meat and prefer it over animals raised on factory farms with chemically enhanced feeds to make them grow as fast as possible in as short a period of time.

Try living in the wilds of Alaska and other places without thinking of hunting as survival, rather than sport.

Then there's the wildlife management aspect of it. Hunting game is restricted. You can only do it at certain times and can only take certain numbers of wildlife. You can go to jail if you're caught poaching.

If the deer population exceeds what the land can maintain, the deer starve and become diseased. They also become more of a problem to farmers and crops and suburban areas. We had a deer run through the parking lot of a grocery store and run all through the grocery store until it was subdued. Unfortunately, they had to put it down to being cut badly with the glass it smashed through.

All of the farms around here are posted with no hunting signs. The population of deer here is crazy here and keeps increasing with no checks in place.

The fact is that my brother and father when he hunted came out of the woods without a deer as often as they came home from a hunting trip with a deer, but they always managed to get enough to last from one hunting season to the next.

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I agree. Plus, it seems like a lot of work. Where I live, it can be days of hiking (9,000 feet elevation or more),and driving until you find the prey. Then, sometimes, a miles long hike or climb to retrieve and carry it out - if you get anything. Sometimes -as an ex-boss experienced - an off season blizzard and the road out is blocked by somebody in a dually truck with bald tires.

All of the work is what my brother lives for. He loves nothing more than to hike and hunt a mountain. If he gets a deer, he then has to get that deer back to the bottom of the mountain to his car. He is either hunting or waiting until he can hunt. It's the experience in the woods that he loves the most.

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Claude Whitacre

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Long before it was a sport, it was survival, and still is in many places.

We don't eat deer meat as a nice little change of pace. It is the primary meat that we eat, along with other game. It is our preferred meat. I've eaten more deer meat and wild game than beef in my lifetime.

Suzanne; I get it. Hunting...meat...food...raising animals...food. I get it all.

But hunting as a sport? Not for me. And it doesn't have to be for me. People who hunt for sport just have an outlook that I don't share.

Would I hunt if I needed the meat to eat? Sure. Would I hunt if it's how I needed to support my family? Sure. Do I eat deer meat? Yes, and I like it a lot.

But would I enjoy the idea of shooting an animal? No. I never have. It isn't about necessity. It's just not the way I'm made. Anyway, I've beaten that to death, I think.

I just read in the newspaper today that someone on our street (one of the most affluent streets in town), was broken into. I'm getting a gun. And I'm going to learn how to use it.

And shooting deer because of overpopulation? It isn't a problem here, so I can't give an educated opinion.

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ThomM 11 years ago

And shooting deer because of overpopulation? It isn't a problem here, so I can't give an educated opinion.

The way it's done is a little different from what that sounds like
Here's how it works in NYS. Encon, thru various programs keeps a pretty close tab on the wildlife population of the state. They also know what the land will support in the different regions. If they see that the deer, turkey, bear, etc. population is getting to large for an area they will increase the number of permits to hunt in that region. By the same token if they see that a species is under populated in an area or if they are reintroducing a species, they will cut the number of permits or place a moratorium on hunting there until they population is in a safe range.

Fish is kind of the same. The state has 12 fish hatcheries so many different fish are stocked in the streams and lakes. Fish like Trout have a daily limit and size requirement. With other fish it depends on the species and density of the population.

Trapping is regulated similar to hunting. Certain animals require the purchase of a tag and only a limited number may be offered.
With all of them, there are specific seasons for that activity.

It's pretty safe to say that hunting for food is the top priority with the hunters in NY. The number of signs you see for deer processing is crazy during hunting season. People do hunt for racks, but will keep the meat if they get one and will "fill out their tags" if it gets near the end of the season and there's no meat in the freezer.
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lanfear63 11 years ago

It speaks volumes that we, being the most successful species on the planet finds the need reproduce so much that we are spreading out and destroying the natural ecosystems of the Earth. We destroy the most dangerous animals leaving the deer for example. Then we go, oh, too many, no more predators. So, we have to cull them ourselves. This keeps hunting sport going as well.

We also upset balances by importing various species from other locations, usually because we like to eat them or use them to keep certain animal or insect populations down, only to find they destroy other animals or incests too and become vermin themselves.

We are the predators with no equal.
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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Suzanne; I get it. Hunting...meat...food...raising animals...food. I get it all.

But hunting as a sport? Not for me. And it doesn't have to be for me. People who hunt for sport just have an outlook that I don't share.

Would I hunt if I needed the meat to eat? Sure. Would I hunt if it's how I needed to support my family? Sure. Do I eat deer meat? Yes, and I like it a lot.

But would I enjoy the idea of shooting an animal? No. I never have. It isn't about necessity. It's just not the way I'm made. Anyway, I've beaten that to death, I think.

I just read in the newspaper today that someone on our street (one of the most affluent streets in town), was broken into. I'm getting a gun. And I'm going to learn how to use it.

And shooting deer because of overpopulation? It isn't a problem here, so I can't give an educated opinion.

Overpopulation is a problem EVERYWHERE in the US. You just don't NOTICE it, because the city is built out, and they have hunting, etc.... Those deer that WERE there didn't just disappear.

But HEY, I don't kill deer either. My father has killed deer, but apparently doesn't NOW. I'm even against catching and releasing fish! OH, I have fished before. I have eaten every one I caught. ALSO, maybe 30% of those I caught were actually from a farm. Maybe another 30% were from lakes seeded by a farm. SO, from a sustainability standpoint, they were all sustainable. It was almost like going on a cattle ranch and slaughtering a cow. The fish were going to die that way anyway.

Steve

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Suzanne; I get it. Hunting...meat...food...raising animals...food. I get it all.

But hunting as a sport? Not for me. And it doesn't have to be for me. People who hunt for sport just have an outlook that I don't share.

... and it doesn't have to be for you. Just a discussion. No one would think of trying to talk you into it. In fact, all the hunters that I know, would prefer to have as few people in the woods as possible. They don't want a bunch of "idiots with guns" in the woods. Like the ones that brought ATVs (against the law) to the mountain, parked their camper close to my brother's camp, brought out the cases of beer and turned on the generator to crank out music all night while they were getting drunk. Then they stumble around the mountain with a hangover the next day pretending to be hunters. Fortunately, the game warden got rid of them, but not until they had destroyed a hunting experience for real hunters for a couple of years.

Not saying that you would be that kind of hunter, I'm sure you wouldn't, but hunters don't need company.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

... and it doesn't have to be for you. Just a discussion. No one would think of trying to talk you into it. In fact, all the hunters that I know, would prefer to have as few people in the woods as possible. They don't want a bunch of "idiots with guns" in the woods. Like the ones that brought ATVs (against the law) to the mountain, parked their camper close to my brother's camp, brought out the cases of beer and turned on the generator to crank out music all night while they were getting drunk. Then they stumble around the mountain with a hangover the next day pretending to be hunters. Fortunately, the game warden got rid of them, but not until they had destroyed a hunting experience for real hunters for a couple of years.

Not saying that you would be that kind of hunter, I'm sure you wouldn't, but hunters don't need company.

I can only imagine how dangerous that would be. I don't think ANY real hunter would shoot without knowing with a very high confidence EXACTLY what they are shooting at, for example, but there are stories of such mishaps. That may even be one reason why they scare ducks, and shoot them in flight. I don't know about deer hunters in general, but many go to a lot of trouble to find out where deer go, camouflage themselves, and attract deer. I bet having a bunch of unescorted beginners come would ruin a lot of that, even if they were quiet. And the beginners probably wouldn't enjoy it anyway.

Steve

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Seasoned and Suzanne mentioned hunting is part of maintaining a proper sized deer population and disease control. One of nature's ways of dealing with overpopulation of deer is chronic wasting disease. Is letting a deer suffer for weeks or months because it's nature's way more humane than shooting them? While I quit hunting more than 40 years ago, it seems a necessary part of deer population management.

Here's what a diseased deer looks like:

[ picture source ]

Not too pretty, is it? I could have showed worse picture. The disease is always fatal.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Seasoned and Suzanne mentioned hunting is part of maintaining a proper sized deer population and disease control. One of nature's ways of dealing with overpopulation of deer is chronic wasting disease. Is letting a deer suffer for weeks or months because it's nature's way more humane than shooting them? While I quit hunting more than 40 years ago, it seems a necessary part of deer population management.

Here's what a diseased deer looks like:

[ picture source ]

Not too pretty, is it? I could have showed worse picture. The disease is always fatal.

CWD is the deer variant of BSE(AKA MAD COW). As I recall, SUPPOSEDLY, humans are immune to DEER CWD,but the CDC recommends against it. So if a deer that seems affected with CWD is killed, it is probably best to have it destroyed in some way. As you said though, it is better that it die THIS way. A whole family of predators could feast on such an animal, that eventually would be easy for them to kill, and they could ALL be infected. THEY in theory could attack other creatures, and spread the disease. There IS a debate as to how contagious they are, but it isn't worth the risk.

Steve

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