45 replies
Pretty new, 18 business school student.

I was eating a local restaurant the other day like a fast food burger joint and checked out the their menu's and take home flyers. Neither had a website.

I asked the guy if he had one, he said no. I then tried to figure the problem as to why he didn't have one. Basically it game down to time, and lack of skills. He then asked me if I knew something about web design and that's when I asked for his email.

As of right now, Im to meet with him next Tuesday to go over a contract. Before I start any work. I let him know that before he signs anything, We will go over pricing options and I will let him know of all the services that will be provided to him.

As of right now, I believe I can 100% sell him on a website. My goal is to up sell him to my social media marketing package.

Now, I've been listening to a a lot of entrepreneur's who've recommended this site to me.

On the topic of pricing one guy said no lower than $2,000, now I know for a fact this guy is working with a budget, because he told me.

I'm aware of "payment plans" although I'm still scratching my head on how much I should charge him initially.

Could someone give me some feedback on this, maybe where I should be, like ballpark?

Thanks in advance!
#pricing #questions
  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    Work with him on what he'd like the outcome to be
    from owning it.

    Ideally you both share a piece of paper and you map out what
    are the pieces that would make up the whole.

    If he is struggling with that, ask if he liked to model a website.

    To help lead him, a great phrase is "what if we..."

    All this creates his involvement and he starts to "own"
    the things the website will do.

    You summarize everything to see if he has left anything out
    and ask why each part is so important.

    Now he is telling you why he wants it
    therefore you aren't having to convince him.

    And finally, when it comes to pricing,
    ask him what he'd expect to invest in his dream website
    that performs all those functions he has written down.

    Keep restating the things it will do
    because that's what he wants, not a website.

    If the price he states isn't going to work for you,
    test him if he can adjust his thinking around it.

    If you price test him a couple of times and he won't budge,
    then ask which items on the list would he be prepared to remove.

    He may see that he doesn't want to remove any and finds the money to
    go with the full list...tell you which one he could live without for now
    and you say you both could revisit at a later date that matches a certain event.
    Now adjust the price to match his allowable investment.

    This whole method is about working with your client
    where your odds of getting the deal improves massively because
    you aren't going in with your deal, your set prices.

    Best,
    Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Thank you for this, I have a few questions. Could you fill me in what exactly would be on the paper we share initially? Would that just include the websites pages, or special content?

      When we move to letting him design his own site, do I have a piece of paper with all the options he can choose from? Such as certain pages, and social media content?

      Again, thank you.
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

      Work with him on what he'd like the outcome to be
      from owning it.

      Ideally you both share a piece of paper and you map out what
      are the pieces that would make up the whole.

      If he is struggling with that, ask if he liked to model a website.

      To help lead him, a great phrase is "what if we..."

      All this creates his involvement and he starts to "own"
      the things the website will do.

      You summarize everything to see if he has left anything out
      and ask why each part is so important.

      Now he is telling you why he wants it
      therefore you aren't having to convince him.

      And finally, when it comes to pricing,
      ask him what he'd expect to invest in his dream website
      that performs all those functions he has written down.

      Keep restating the things it will do
      because that's what he wants, not a website.

      If the price he states isn't going to work for you,
      test him if he can adjust his thinking around it.

      If you price test him a couple of times and he won't budge,
      then ask which items on the list would he be prepared to remove.

      He may see that he doesn't want to remove any and finds the money to
      go with the full list...tell you which one he could live without for now
      and you say you both could revisit at a later date that matches a certain event.
      Now adjust the price to match his allowable investment.

      This whole method is about working with your client
      where your odds of getting the deal improves massively because
      you aren't going in with your deal, your set prices.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by pspillane View Post

        Thank you for this, I have a few questions. Could you fill me in what exactly would be on the paper we share initially? Would that just include the websites pages, or special content?

        When we move to letting him design his own site, do I have a piece of paper with all the options he can choose from? Such as certain pages, and social media content?

        Again, thank you.
        Go in with blank paper.

        Plus you have a blank mind on what the website should include.

        "options he can choose from? Such as certain pages, and social media content?"

        Looks like I need to beat it into your head, since you didn't
        understand my first post...

        The business owner doesn't care, doesn't want convincing about
        certain pages, social media content and a friggin website...
        he only cares what it will do for him!

        Hence you lead the conversation with asking why he wants a website and what exactly has he in mind what he wants it to do.

        Once he tells you you expand on it...like why is that important,
        what will it mean in getting it, what will it mean if he doesn't get it.

        Again, it's all about the outcome, the result of what he gets.

        NOT, a website, not social media, not page views, not the tech stuff.

        Don't tell him what he should have,
        guide him to tell you what he wants.

        That's what's he's only interested in,
        therefore he will give you money if he's confident you can deliver on that outcome.

        If you don't get it now, keep re-reading both posts because I see no point
        in further trying to get you to change your mindset.

        Best,
        Doctor E. Vile
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        • Profile picture of the author pspillane
          No I understand this a lot better. Thank you.

          So I'm basically letting him create his own site and by asking what he would pay for his "dream site" I'm forcing his hand into showing me his budget cards?

          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          Go in with blank paper.

          Plus you have a blank mind on what the website should include.

          "options he can choose from? Such as certain pages, and social media content?"

          Looks like I need to beat it into your head, since you didn't
          understand my first post...

          The business owner doesn't care, doesn't want convincing about
          certain pages, social media content and a friggin website...
          he only cares what it will do for him!

          Hence you lead the conversation with asking why he wants a website and what exactly has he in mind what he wants it to do.

          Once he tells you you expand on it...like why is that important,
          what will it mean in getting it, what will it mean if he doesn't get it.

          Again, it's all about the outcome, the result of what he gets.

          NOT, a website, not social media, not page views, not the tech stuff.

          Don't tell him what he should have,
          guide him to tell you what he wants.

          That's what's he's only interested in,
          therefore he will give you money if he's confident you can deliver on that outcome.

          If you don't get it now, keep re-reading both posts because I see no point
          in further trying to get you to change your mindset.

          Best,
          Doctor E. Vile
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          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
            Originally Posted by pspillane View Post

            No I understand this a lot better. Thank you.

            So I'm basically letting him create his own site and by asking what he would pay for his "dream site" I'm forcing his hand into showing me his budget cards?
            Yes.

            Here's the thing about budgets.

            A person often doesn't have any baseline to come up with a budget.

            This person most likely doesn't know the capabilities,
            the things it can do.

            So how can he put a number on those?

            If you walk him through in creating all the magical things
            it can do, those that he has an inkling it can do, those things he's seen what others do,
            then custom to his wants, often he can find money from somewhere which is way beyond what he thought it might be.

            Never put your world view on what someone will be prepared to invest in what they want.

            Your job is to find out what he wants it to do so you can deliver it
            and get paid handsomely.

            Best,
            Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author plydon
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

      Work with him on what he'd like the outcome to be
      from owning it.

      Ideally you both share a piece of paper and you map out what
      are the pieces that would make up the whole.

      If he is struggling with that, ask if he liked to model a website.

      To help lead him, a great phrase is "what if we..."

      All this creates his involvement and he starts to "own"
      the things the website will do.

      You summarize everything to see if he has left anything out
      and ask why each part is so important.

      Now he is telling you why he wants it
      therefore you aren't having to convince him.

      And finally, when it comes to pricing,
      ask him what he'd expect to invest in his dream website
      that performs all those functions he has written down.

      Keep restating the things it will do
      because that's what he wants, not a website.

      If the price he states isn't going to work for you,
      test him if he can adjust his thinking around it.

      If you price test him a couple of times and he won't budge,
      then ask which items on the list would he be prepared to remove.

      He may see that he doesn't want to remove any and finds the money to
      go with the full list...tell you which one he could live without for now
      and you say you both could revisit at a later date that matches a certain event.
      Now adjust the price to match his allowable investment.

      This whole method is about working with your client
      where your odds of getting the deal improves massively because
      you aren't going in with your deal, your set prices.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
      ewen, I am not sure how to get in touch with you and I am new on here...I want to pick your brain on refinance marketing (on or offline), my email is patricklydon@lydonmortgage.com
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    Local businesses can be some of the most frugle people do deal with. It's just because its hard running a local business a lot of the time, and when you start pitching thousand dollar stuff, it doesn't sit well.

    And if a local business owner already mentioned they are on a "budget"...

    You are going to get laughed out the store if you tell him $2000.

    $2000 is a lot for a small business especially if they mentioned that they are on a "Budget".

    The first thing you should have done is ask him what his budget is, so you don't waste yours or his time proposing him something that he's just going to refuse.

    Before you even go in there proposing your "social media marketing" package, you need to find out what budget this guy is working with so you can come in prepared and not make it awkward when he tells you all he wanted to spend was $200.

    Finding out his budget is the absolute most important thing, even if you plan on selling him something more expensive, at least you have a gauge of what is on there mind
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Thank you for really pointing out the importance of knowing the budget. How would you suggest I go about finding this professionally?

      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      Local businesses can be some of the most frugle people do deal with. It's just because its hard running a local business a lot of the time, and when you start pitching thousand dollar stuff, it doesn't sit well.

      And if a local business owner already mentioned they are on a "budget"...

      You are going to get laughed out the store if you tell him $2000.

      $2000 is a lot for a small business especially if they mentioned that they are on a "Budget".

      The first thing you should have done is ask him what his budget is, so you don't waste yours or his time proposing him something that he's just going to refuse.

      Before you even go in there proposing your "social media marketing" package, you need to find out what budget this guy is working with so you can come in prepared and not make it awkward when he tells you all he wanted to spend was $200.

      Finding out his budget is the absolute most important thing, even if you plan on selling him something more expensive, at least you have a gauge of what is on there mind
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  • Profile picture of the author Ellen Chedid
    I say negotiate a reasonable price for the both of you but do take into consideration how busy he is and what his budget is. $2000 is a lot for a small business and if i were him i would probably reconsider working with you at that price. However don't forfeit too much lower than industry standard for small businesses. Sometimes they can rip you off.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    The easiest way to find out the budget of a client is to be straight up about it and ask him what his budget for the project is.

    There is no point in beating around the bush.

    The figure he gives you doesn't mean that, that is his "ceiling"....There is always wiggle room to squeeze out a higher figure. But you at least need to know what you are working with.

    I have over 5 years experience telemarketing, and no matter how many "Features" and "Benefits" you present to customers, 90% of the time it comes down to cost.

    Don't get me wrong....you can absolutely sell people on "value" at higher prices.

    But when the word "budget" is expressly said by a customer, you need to re-adjust your plan of attack and focus on what you can do for them at the price they are willing to pay.

    Edit: And make sure you know his budget before you go in there, don't wait till you meet him in person and then start haggling about the prices. Get as much information out of him NOW while you can, so you can be prepared.
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Do I send him an email asking about what his price range is ? I feel foolish asking so blatantly. Meeting is Tuesday.


      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      The easiest way to find out the budget of a client is to be straight up about it and ask him what his budget for the project is.

      There is no point in beating around the bush.

      The figure he gives you doesn't mean that, that is his "ceiling"....There is always wiggle room to squeeze out a higher figure. But you at least need to know what you are working with.

      I have over 5 years experience telemarketing, and no matter how many "Features" and "Benefits" you present to customers, 90% of the time it comes down to cost.

      Don't get me wrong....you can absolutely sell people on "value" at higher prices.

      But when the word "budget" is expressly said by a customer, you need to re-adjust your plan of attack and focus on what you can do for them at the price they are willing to pay.

      Edit: And make sure you know his budget before you go in there, don't wait till you meet him in person and then start haggling about the prices. Get as much information out of him NOW while you can, so you can be prepared.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    Never feel foolish asking questions that you NEED to know the answer to. He should expect you to ask him what his budget is. He is probably wondering why you have not already.

    You'll feel even more foolish walking in on Tuesday telling him it will be $2000 when he only wants to spend $150.
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      Never feel foolish asking questions that you NEED to know the answer to. He should expect you to ask him what his budget is. He is probably wondering why you have not already.

      You'll feel even more foolish walking in on Tuesday telling him it will be $2000 when he only wants to spend $150.
      Haha good point. In the email I sent him I said when we meet, I will go over pricing options and details of the services I'll be providing him.

      Could you give me your feedback on this email I plan on sending him?

      "Hey, _____

      What is your budget for this project?"

      Short and sweet?

      First potential sale, I don't want to screw it up. I need to be confident though.

      Edit: There's some truth to my appearance and expectations. I really appreciate the insight.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    Also don't take this the wrong way...But you said you are 18 years old...which means you probably look like you are 18 years old...you more then likely still look like a "kid" to most adults who run a local business.

    So he is probably expecting you to be cheap.

    Now obviously I can't speak for him, I am just generalizing....but you should definitely find out what his budget is, either via phone call, visiting the place again and checking up or by email.
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  • Profile picture of the author pspillane
    Hmm two different perspectives, hard to decide which strategy I should take.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    Short and sweet is always good....There's no point in saying much else because nothing much else matters at this point.

    You got to always try to put yourself in the mindset of the other person.

    Maybe through a little bit of butter on that steak though.

    "Hey ______,

    I just wanted to touch base with you really quickly before we meetup on Tuesday.

    I was just wondering what your budget for a website would be?

    Thanks, ___________"

    Don't try and talk as if you have already closed the sale by saying things like "this project"

    Because it's technically not your project yet, and by trying to sound like it is, can really give a person cold feet.

    You have to watch the words you use, saying the wrong things can really off-put a person.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    ewenmack's strategy is legit, but he is dis-connecting for the reality of things right now.

    He is not putting himself in the shoes of a business owner seeing an 18 year old kid sitting there, eating a burger in his restaurant, striking up a conversion about why he doesn't have a website.

    He is going at it from a very professional standpoint, and while what he says works, you need to go at things on a situation by situation basis.

    The facts are he already mentioned he was on a budget.

    He gave you his concerns and worries by telling you that one sentence.

    Never ignore the clues people give you and try to bully them into things they don't want or dont need. That will only lead to them backing out at a later time.

    You are also new like you said and don't have experience doing what ewenmack is suggesting, so trying his approach in my opinion is not a good idea in this specific situation.

    To me it sounds like the guy just wants a website. Deal with that first.....find out his budget. Then when you get there, then start discussing the other stuff and try and up-sell and see where you can go.
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Thats a great perspective. Thanks again for your time. Will update as I go.

      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      ewenmack's strategy is legit, but he is dis-connecting for the reality of things right now.

      He is not putting himself in the shoes of a business owner seeing an 18 year old kid sitting there, eating a burger in his restaurant, striking up a conversion about why he doesn't have a website.

      He is going at it from a very professional standpoint, and while what he says works, you need to go at things on a situation by situation basis.

      The facts are he already mentioned he was on a budget.

      He gave you his concerns and worries by telling you that one sentence.

      Never ignore the clues people give you and try to bully them into things they don't want or dont need. That will only lead to them backing out at a later time.

      You are also new like you said and don't have experience doing what ewenmack is suggesting, so trying his approach in my opinion is not a good idea in this specific situation.

      To me it sounds like the guy just wants a website. Deal with that first.....find out his budget. Then when you get there, then start discussing the other stuff and try and up-sell and see where you can go.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      ewenmack's strategy is legit, but he is dis-connecting for the reality of things right now.

      He is not putting himself in the shoes of a business owner seeing an 18 year old kid sitting there, eating a burger in his restaurant, striking up a conversion about why he doesn't have a website.
      Age has little to do with what the business owner was or wasn't seeing.

      When I was eighteen I sold high end products to sophisticated and educated "older" folks.

      When I was 22 I had a fully operational business with three full time staff.

      The business owner is looking for a solution.

      If the OP can present the solution to the owner that delivers the results the owner desires then the price should reflect the value of the outcome not some feeling thing that they cannot pay.

      Business owners are used to paying for professional services.

      If the OP presents professionally then there is no need to go in with a lowball offer.

      If cash-flow concerns the business owner they may request terms...or alternatively the OP could suggest a basic professional website only costs $250 per week for six months or $5900 upfront plus hosting for example.

      If there is any resistance you can include or exclude certain components as identified by Ewen's blank page strategy to arrive at a solution that meets a price point.

      Any decent signage...or advertising...or anything decent for business costs more than what people who haven't been in business think.

      Go in with charity pricing it will not end well.

      Some of my rules of any negotiation are...

      "when I accept less I'll usually get less"

      "When I start higher I do better"

      "Whoever makes the first concession will do worse"

      "Someone who offers a greater concession will get the other party's hopes up and usually give away more"

      It wouldn't hurt to go in high and with a professional approach.

      We are not talking about getting your kid to design a webpage for fun here.

      Real business owners want something professional that works for them and that has no hidden costs.

      When selling them anything the emphasis should be on the cost of lost opportunity and the cost of REWORK if they choose someone based on price alone.

      Offer a full solution and make it pain free.

      Then discuss their investment and if necessary payment terms.

      Have a professional agreement ready to go when you visit. Buy a template from a legal pages website when you are starting out.

      Even if you don't win the job make sure the prospect sees the formal agreement as it helps with leverage.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    How much money do they think your efforts will bring in during the time you work for them?

    Restaurants have a "guest check average", or how much the typical charge per person is.

    You could help them raise the GCA, or bring in more customers...or both.

    # customers per period X GCA = total $ revenue $

    Get them to come up with that figure. You can bring it up or down based on what you conservatively know you can achieve, but it's best for them to come up with the initial number.

    Then bill 5-10% of that. They came up with the total, and your number is directly connected to theirs, so they'll "get it".

    A few years back I made this video explaining the idea:


    from the thread:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...uch-again.html

    Most people price way too low, and base their price on fiction.
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      Many, many years ago, I knew nothing about websites and had a business that had none.

      Two website developers contacted me about the same time:
      the first one had beautiful pages from sites his company created and told me I could choose the color, I could choose a layout like one of the pages you showed me, and things like that.

      He was dressed in a suit, looked and acted very professional... Wanted $3000 for the website he said I needed.

      The other one, more casually dressed, asked me what I wanted my website to do. I had no idea websites did things, so he told me it could be a brochure, it could be seen only by people I'd contacted before, to move them closer to buying, it could be my 24/hour salesperson online...

      He started talking about page content after I decided what I wanted my site to do for me... He wanted $3,000 for his site (which would be uglier than the other one) but would do a bunch of things I wanted.

      I chose the 2nd one... The price, interestingly enough, was the same.

      In other words, kid, Ewan is right... Find out what the owner wants the site to do for him and go from there. And, being 18... if you start talking results, the business owner will not notice or forget about it. It's up to you: do you present yourself as an 18-year old who knows some code or do you present yourself as a problem-solver for businesses like your lead has?
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      • Profile picture of the author pspillane
        Thank you for sharing your experience with me, and the mindset I must have and the impression I NEED to give off. If possible could you maybe elaborate on what I can suggest to a this business owner, who works in the fast food restaurant business if he faces the same dilemma you did initially in not knowing what a website could do for him?

        Thanks in advance!

        Originally Posted by DABK View Post

        Many, many years ago, I knew nothing about websites and had a business that had none.

        Two website developers contacted me about the same time:
        the first one had beautiful pages from sites his company created and told me I could choose the color, I could choose a layout like one of the pages you showed me, and things like that.

        He was dressed in a suit, looked and acted very professional... Wanted $3000 for the website he said I needed.

        The other one, more casually dressed, asked me what I wanted my website to do. I had no idea websites did things, so he told me it could be a brochure, it could be seen only by people I'd contacted before, to move them closer to buying, it could be my 24/hour salesperson online...

        He started talking about page content after I decided what I wanted my site to do for me... He wanted $3,000 for his site (which would be uglier than the other one) but would do a bunch of things I wanted.

        I chose the 2nd one... The price, interestingly enough, was the same.

        In other words, kid, Ewan is right... Find out what the owner wants the site to do for him and go from there. And, being 18... if you start talking results, the business owner will not notice or forget about it. It's up to you: do you present yourself as an 18-year old who knows some code or do you present yourself as a problem-solver for businesses like your lead has?
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        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          Don't suggest, let him tell you. However, bring it up, like: Websites are tools; they can be designed to do different things... They can be used to take order, to inform people about changes in the business, to attract new clients, to convince visitors to visit the business... Or a combination of things. What would you like yours to do?

          Originally Posted by pspillane View Post

          Thank you for sharing your experience with me, and the mindset I must have and the impression I NEED to give off. If possible could you maybe elaborate on what I can suggest to a this business owner, who works in the fast food restaurant business if he faces the same dilemma you did initially in not knowing what a website could do for him?

          Thanks in advance!
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        [QUOTE=DABK;10533727

        In other words, kid, Ewan is right... Find out what the owner wants the site to do for him and go from there. And, being 18... if you start talking results, the business owner will not notice or forget about it. It's up to you: do you present yourself as an 18-year old who knows some code or do you present yourself as a problem-solver for businesses like your lead has?[/QUOTE]


        Thanks for dropping in with a buyer's perspective
        on why you bought one option over the other.

        Plus countering the pollution of mind others and ourselves
        put on age.

        Best,
        Doctor E. Vile
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  • Profile picture of the author cjsparacino123
    Kudos for networking!
    Signature

    Grab a Free copy of my investing/marketing eBook!
    http://bit.ly/2h8XV41

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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    No offence, you're all giving great great advice, I just want to first say that. Great information and knowledge. But you guys are all to caught up in your own hoop-la of advice to comprehend what the real situation is.

    The business owner was not seeking any solution. He was perfectly fine with the way things were going, that's why he hasn't gone out of his way to pursue a solution. You can't sell someone a solution to a problem they don't think they have. He expressed no interest and has not gone out of his way at all to seek this type of solution from anyone. He was approached by someone sitting in his restaurant about an idea about a website. Nothing more, nothing less.

    You guys are making it out to be more then is it, and you are showing a perfect example or the type of people I hate to do business with. People who come in talking about stuff and trying to sell me on stuff I have already set my mind on that I don't want or need, and no matter how out of breathe you get you trying to sell me on why I need it, I won't change my mind.

    You ever had a vacuum salesman come to your house and try and sell you on why you need this new vacuum and how your home, health and happiness with all be better when you buy it. It will help your asthma, make your skin better.

    Sure, sales tactics like that works for a very small margin of people, but the majority of people don't care about your crap and all they want to know how much it is going to cost them.

    The business owner already mentioned that budget was a concern, in-fact it was the only thing he mentioned.

    All the business owner did was ask if the kid knew something about "web design".

    If he was more interested or wanted something else, he would have pursued the conversation more right then at the time.

    You're all so caught up in your general guru ways and self help advice that you are so out of touch with what the situation actually is. Keep thanking each others posts because it goes along with what each said, that doesn't make your advice the right advice to take.

    All the advice you guys give is good in theory, but we all know that's not how life works.

    90% of people ONLY care about price, and no matter how much you keep posting about how you did this when you were 18 or choose that over this. It doesn't change that fact.

    You guys must not know a lot of local business owners anymore since you seem to think that everyone has $5000 laying around to give out to people willy nilly.

    When was the last time you actually talked with a local business owner and learned the struggle that most of them are facing.

    Price is a huge concern for any local business, and you need to get your head out of the sand and realize that your methodology doesn't work all the time. It works, but you need to go situation by situation....you can't just follow the script you wrote 30 years ago and follow it everytime.

    I'm not saying anyone in here's advice is bad or wrong, its all very good actually, legitimate and sound. I really respect all the things that you have said and how you are trying to help the OP. But you need to listen to what your customers saying and evaluate there situation accordingly.

    No one cookie cutter.....Do this and sell them on the value..blah blah blah method is going to work for everyone.

    And Oziboomer.....$250 per week or $5900 for 6 months....you must be living in a fantasy world if you think 95% of local business owners are going to pay that, no matter what you promise. Especially a business owner that's ONLY dialogue with him was the word "Budget".

    You can take whoever's advice you want OP, its really up to you to decide what advice you like better....but I personally think going in not knowing someone's budget, when they already expressed budget was a concern and trying to pitch them on thousands of dollars worth of services is ridiculous.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      trying to pitch them on thousands of dollars worth of services is ridiculous.
      We aren't.

      We are going in asking what he wants the website to do.

      We don't have cookie cutter sites that fit into certain price ranges.

      100% custom made.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile
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    • Profile picture of the author animal44
      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      90% of people ONLY care about price, and no matter how much you keep posting about how you did this when you were 18 or choose that over this. It doesn't change that fact.
      That's rubbish. If that was the case then Rolls Royce would be out of business overnight. Apple wouldn't be one of the richest companies in the world. All the trendy names would also go under.

      Give people a compelling reason and they'll buy at whatever price it takes...

      I'm with Ewan in case anyone was left guessing...
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by modgerody View Post

      And Oziboomer.....$250 per week or $5900 for 6 months....you must be living in a fantasy world if you think 95% of local business owners are going to pay that, no matter what you promise. Especially a business owner that's ONLY dialogue with him was the word "Budget".
      I understand your mindset and reading of the situation here.

      Let me provide a few examples.

      Does Google ask businesses what they want to pay?

      NO...they serve ads for what the market will pay.

      Does Facebook ask businesses what they will pay?

      NO...they serve ads for what their market will bear.

      Did Yellow Pages ever ask "What do you want to pay?"

      NO - They told businesses the terms and businesses paid.

      Websites are just the same.

      Sure a business can get a generic website from anywhere...fiverr probably...any freelancer site for maybe $200 or less or more.

      The point is.

      There is a prospect who desires a solution.

      He doesn't trust Indian telemarketers.

      He doesn't trust slick sales types.

      He does trust that someone took an interest and maybe able to help him without embarrassing him, without assuming he can't pay, without assuming he doesn't have a profitable business, without assuming he doesn't understand the value of the end result.

      There are plenty of restaurants...even burger joints...that push between $2000 and $20,000 turnover on a daily basis.

      When you enter the conversation with the business owner you need to find out the revenue improvements they want... not what you think.

      It might be as simple as establishing an app for local employees to pre-order their lunch or order coffee for the whole building on a regular basis.

      In my general vicinity there are three businesses I know using a pre-order app system that also handles payments.

      Staff pre-charge their accounts and usually get one or more coffees a day from the coffee guy. They get lunch once or twice a day from the lunch business. They buy their morning tea and bread for home from the bakery.

      These business understand that the frequency, easy of purchase and loyalty in worth the investment that committed to the solution.

      It would pay to stop thinking that the business owner might be so hard up that they wouldn't consider paying for a solution that increases their profits.

      The price has nothing to do with the cost of getting a website.

      The price has everything to do with the value of the solution.

      Maybe Dominos got a $200 website...no?

      To understand what any business will pay for something you need to understand not only the business but the psychology behind why people behave certain ways.

      Once people get a better grasp of the factors that influence decision making they may improve results for themselves instead of assuming another person can only afford gutter pricing.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Good job for taking initiative and talking to him.

    I know of a kid who started doing websites and hooking up computers and printers and such
    for friends and neighbors when he was thirteen. He did get paid for that as a lot of adults
    support young business people. By 18 he had an hourly rate around $90, and project pricing
    about as much as any other competitor.

    Anyhow, I'm for finding out what all he wants to do on the internet. Does he want to drag tourists
    in off the highway and therefore need a mobile friendly page or menu or FB? Does he have a local following and would he be ripe for a Facebook page? Does he have live music or other events and want a calendar function? Does he want a reservation function? Does he want to Tweet out or SMS specials? What promotions does he run, or want to run? Does he do delivery or catering and need an ordering online function?

    Find out about his background and marketing savvy. How did he start or buy the business?

    You have to find out the first deliverables and be able pay yourself and any vendors you hire.

    He should understand you want to make money like he does, and you should be able to
    help him understand the return on investment and his other "what's in it for me?. (WIIFMS)

    Study his business and current marketing and advertising as much as you can before Tuesday.
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  • Profile picture of the author jml777
    Listen to Modgerody. I'm not saying the other guys aren't correct, but I had a graphic design firm and dealt with all types of businesses. Unless this restaurant owner is high end, he's not going to want to pay a lot. You don't want to spend a ton of time, create a great proposal and finish with a $3,500 quote just to give him a bunch of great ideas that he will then give to his niece for $350.

    You're just starting out. You want jobs for your portfolio. You want to cover your costs. You want clients that you can bump up over time.

    Ask him his budget, like Modgerody said. He'll probably weasel around the question. "Say, I don't want to give you a $10,000 quote on a website with all the bells and whistles if your budget is $2,000." This is where you aim really high. His reaction will give you some idea of what he is thinking on price. If he says, "what will a $5,000 get me?" you're golden. If he acts incredulous or his eyeballs pop out, ask straight out. "Well, what were you thinking you can afford?" ("What you can afford" will touch his ego and there's a better chance that he will respond with a higher price than he expected to - closer to the $2,000 you quoted than the $500 he was thinking. NEVER say "how much do you want to spend" or he'll tell you $15.) If he beats around the bush, ask him how many customers he gets a week. Then ask what 20 or 30% more would bring in. This switches the conversation from losing money (paying you) to making money (he gets more customers). That's when you bring up social media, and all the other great services you offer to pile in the customers...which can only happen if he has a great website.

    Don't worry if you get the job for $300 and you end up making $10/hour. You will be IN. Then offer him things every month, bells and whistles and added features. You'll hit $3,000 before you know it. If he loves your work, you'll get his menus, signs, etc. You'll have turned a $300 job into a $10,000/year or $10,000/month client. With the small companies, putting together recurring contracts for things like social media for $250/month will make you a great living. Small business owners don't have time check things, so if you're generating customers, he'll pay that $250/month forever.

    Whatever you agree on for the site, ask for half up front. That gets him invested.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    ^^^^^
    If a pre-ordering system adds $50 to $100 per lunch just about every day, that's
    another pretty good chunk monthly...

    All sorts of possibilities for OP to talk about with the prospect.

    All sorts of door openers or "tripwires" to offer the prospect.

    Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author jgarfieldstudios
    never negotiate pricing without knowing the budget

    simple as that
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    • Profile picture of the author pspillane
      Originally Posted by jgarfieldstudios View Post

      never negotiate pricing without knowing the budget

      simple as that
      okay garfield
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by jgarfieldstudios View Post

      never negotiate pricing without knowing the budget

      simple as that
      Budget?

      How does someone arrive at a budget for something they don't know the true benefits for?

      How does someone create a budget for something they don't have or have no experience of?

      People can find out what things cost and what they may have available to pay for something but that is not the best approach when you are trying to sell something to someone.

      A better approach is one of education.

      Now... you may say you've heard about educating a prospect before and many prospects are pre-educated before they enter the buying process.

      The KEY about the education component of any pitch is not to educate the buyer so much about features and benefits even though they are important and that is what most people would think.

      The key is to educate the prospect in why they need your solution.

      Teach them to desire your outcome.

      Budget is a pretty much a secondary consideration once you have built desire.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post


        The KEY about the education component of any pitch is not to educate the buyer so much about features and benefits even though they are important and that is what most people would think.

        Ozi
        Wanted to make an important distinction in this discussion as it relates to pitching and non pitching.

        The method I laid out to the original poster, there is no pitching.

        Best,
        Doctor E Vile
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        Budget?

        How does someone arrive at a budget for something they don't know the true benefits for?

        How does someone create a budget for something they don't have or have no experience of?
        Brilliant.

        Same with advertising. If you don't already know you are going to buy it...why in the world would you have a budget for it?

        And literally everyone I ever talked to that said they had a budget for advertising or marketing...either made the figure up on the spot, or got it out of a book.
        If they mention a budget, I ask, "How did you arrive at that figure?"

        And I let them talk. It's easy to make that figure go away.

        As far as small businesses being frugal. Sure, every business owner has to watch costs. But most businesses I see spend anywhere from $1,000-$10,000 a month on print advertising already.

        I usually compare my service to "The lowest paid employee". It compares really well, and nearly every business owner can see the benefits compared to the kid that takes out the trash.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Brilliant.

          Same with advertising. If you don't already know you are going to buy it...why in the world would you have a budget for it?

          And literally everyone I ever talked to that said they had a budget for advertising or marketing...either made the figure up on the spot, or got it out of a book.
          If they mention a budget, I ask, "How did you arrive at that figure?"

          And I let them talk. It's easy to make that figure go away.

          As far as small businesses being frugal. Sure, every business owner has to watch costs. But most businesses I see spend anywhere from $1,000-$10,000 a month on print advertising already.

          I usually compare my service to "The lowest paid employee". It compares really well, and nearly every business owner can see the benefits compared to the kid that takes out the trash.

          Bam!!!

          You, Oz, Ewen and Jason nailed it.

          Something I learned years ago is that "all buyers are liars". Maybe not all, but most. I'd never ask someone upfront how much their budget is without asking them questions about their business first.

          It's amazing how quickly someone can come up with money if it's for something that they really want or know they'd be stupid not to do.

          You said:

          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          But most businesses I see spend anywhere from $1,000-$10,000 a month on print advertising already.
          What's really amazing to me is that most of them don't even know their metrics! They could be spending that money blindly and assuming that it's working when it's really not. It's possible that the individual could actually spend less and make more just by simply tracking!

          Like Ewen said, it's just a matter of breaking out a pen and paper.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

            What's really amazing to me is that most of them don't even know their metrics! They could be spending that money blindly and assuming that it's working when it's really not. It's possible that the individual could actually spend less and make more just by simply tracking!

            Like Ewen said, it's just a matter of breaking out a pen and paper.
            When I used to give speeches on advertising, I would ask if anyone in the audience had an advertising budget. Many would raise their hands, and I would ask what it was a month. They would either give me a figure (like $5,000) or a percentage, (like 15% of gross sales)

            After 8 or 10 told me, I would ask someone where that figure came from. Then, "Claude the Merciless" would say....

            "You budget costs. Advertising isn't a cost, it's an income producing investment.

            Let's say your budget is $5,000 a month. You spend $1,000 on an ad, and it returns you nothing. Do you do that 4 more times, just because you have a budget of $5,000?

            And if you spend $1,000 on an ad, and it brings in $5,000 in profit, do you stop running that ad, just because you reached your budget?

            Advertising and marketing either produces a profit, or loses you money.
            If you run an ad that generates nothing, continuing to run that ad is insanity. If your advertising triples your money, you repeat it, as quickly and as often as you can, until the returns are less than the cost."

            i say just about the same thing to real customers. If it's internet marketing services, I just replace "advertising" with "internet marketing services".

            If you put in a dollar, and you get back three dollars...what's your budget for that?

            I actually cover that in great detail in my Selling Local Advertising book.

            The only time I've had a problem, is if I'm talking to an employee, and their budget is written in stone, and they aren't the owner. But talking to a business owner? Much easier to get them to see the light.

            Incidentally, the last 10 years or so, my advertising budge is about 1.5% of my retail sales.

            I didn't follow a formula. I just continued the marketing efforts that generated sales, and stopped doing the things that didn't generate sales...and I ended up with 1.5%.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I don't know if it's because I'm fairly well grounded in math, but I think in ratios.

    When my hotel owners operated the hotel, they would moan about paying $800 in commission to, say Booking.com, even though it led to $5600 in revenues.

    Last year I spent about $20,000 in commissions to online travel agencies (OTAs), like Expedia.com or Booking.com, for a tangible revenue increase of $95,000. We also get a lot of direct bookings just from being on those sites, and a lot of direct bookings after somebody stays with us through OTA use for their first stay. Then there are the people they refer and the reviews all over the place. So, probably a tangible and intangible boost of $105,000 per year.

    So, a small business owner may not have a budget, or a budget that is pulled out thin air or hearsay such as "My buddy (in a completely different business) spent $2000 on his website and it looks really nice." But, if you get him to thinking about spending $200 to gain $400 to $1000, or more, then you should get movement. More and more as your relation progresses.

    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
      This is right in my wheelhouse.....I have managed over 10+ Bar/Restaurants Social Media over the past 8 years. Currently have 4 clients on the book.

      Depending on the Website, I charge between $500 and $1,500

      On Managing Social Media, my contracts are between $750 to $1,250 per month.

      I could go into more detail or PM me and I will send you a sample contract.

      Peace
      James
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      • Profile picture of the author animal44
        Originally Posted by sdentrepreneur View Post

        Depending on the Website, I charge between $500 and $1,500

        On Managing Social Media, my contracts are between $750 to $1,250 per month.
        How many extra customers does this bring in each month...? And what is the value of those customers?
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  • Profile picture of the author rMike
    $400 up front, plus $50 a month for updating and maintaining the website. I would also try to include hosting in the monthly price, thus you have a client for life.
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  • Profile picture of the author modgerody
    Can we get an update on how the meeting with the local business owner went?
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