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Pricing leads for attorneys

by George Ventura
12 replies
I have a large list of leads for potential bankruptcy and debt settlement clients for attorneys. These are exclusively obtained by me through the means of processing publicly available documents. These are all current and the leads are not represented by an attorney, but creditors are starting ligation process on them. I can provide name and current address along with financial details, which would be prefect for direct mail advertising.

Now, I'm not sure how to price these. I was initially going to do debt settlement pay per call at $40-$50/lead. Apparently the state that I targeted has strict regulation against debt settlement companies so I am unable to find a company to work with.

So I have decided one option is to directly sell lists to attorneys, but not sure on pricing.

I could send out 200 letters "phony" letters with a new voip number, just to track what the callback rate is, to better price.
#attorneys #leads #pricing
  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
    Originally Posted by George Ventura View Post

    I have a large list of leads for potential bankruptcy and debt settlement clients for attorneys. These are exclusively obtained by me through the means of processing publicly available documents. These are all current and the leads are not represented by an attorney, but creditors are starting ligation process on them. I can provide name and current address along with financial details, which would be prefect for direct mail advertising.

    Now, I'm not sure how to price these. I was initially going to do debt settlement pay per call at $40-$50/lead. Apparently the state that I targeted has strict regulation against debt settlement companies so I am unable to find a company to work with.

    So I have decided one option is to directly sell lists to attorneys, but not sure on pricing.

    I could send out 200 letters "phony" letters with a new voip number, just to track what the callback rate is, to better price.
    Looks like you've obtained or compiled a list for which there is no market..

    How will sending out phony letters create something salable?
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    • Profile picture of the author George Ventura
      Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

      Looks like you've obtained or compiled a list for which there is no market..

      How will sending out phony letters create something salable?
      "phony" letters with my own number where I can track call data will at least to some degree tell me the call rate per mail sent. Bankruptcy attorneys charge around $1k-$4k+ depending on the complexity of the bankruptcy. So if I mail 100 letters and receive 20 calls, I would say its pretty effective. If they can turn 20 calls into 2 clients, the attorney is looking at a minimum of $2,000 in revenue.

      given, if i generate 2 clients per 100 leads, how much should I price my leads
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    ABA rules don't allow this.

    For those of you interested in selling leads to lawyers, I have never, in my life, seen a lead gen site in this niche that wasn't breaking the law.

    Even if you were gathering information, collecting form submits and then sending them to an attorney, the attorney would be breaking the ABA rule of solicitation if they made a single call to the lead.

    Not a good niche for lead gen or selling leads.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojo1
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      ABA rules don't allow this.

      For those of you interested in selling leads to lawyers, I have never, in my life, seen a lead gen site in this niche that wasn't breaking the law.

      Even if you were gathering information, collecting form submits and then sending them to an attorney, the attorney would be breaking the ABA rule of solicitation if they made a single call to the lead.

      Not a good niche for lead gen or selling leads.
      Interesting information. Is it solicitation because the lead was first sold to the attorney or are attorneys not allowed to purchase leads/contacts?

      I'm really trying to better understand what part of the transaction makes it illegal.

      In your opinion would a highly ranked attorney focused website leased to an attorney who then followed up on the leads collected be considered illegal?
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      • Profile picture of the author George Ventura
        Originally Posted by mojo1 View Post

        Interesting information. Is it solicitation because the lead was first sold to the attorney or are attorneys not allowed to purchase leads/contacts?

        I'm really trying to better understand what part of the transaction makes it illegal.

        In your opinion would a highly ranked attorney focused website leased to an attorney who then followed up on the leads collected be considered illegal?
        From my research, attorneys are not allowed to make unsolicited contact with potential clients, the leads must make the initial contact to the attorney. It's perfectly fine to have a website in which the user submits a form requesting to be contacted by an attorney or selling inbound calls to attorneys, this is a common business model that totalattorneys.com and others employ. The only other thing you are not allowed to do is take a percentage based sales commission if you are not a licensed attorney. Attorneys are allowed to refer clients to other attorneys and it's usually standard to payout 20-30% referral commission.

        To my knowledge direct mail is allowed and usually follow the same advertising guidelines, in that it cannot not be misleading or emotional charged, certain states have more regulation in that ads must be submitted to the state bar and/or personal injury victims cannot receive ads until 30 days after their injury.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by mojo1 View Post

        Interesting information. Is it solicitation because the lead was first sold to the attorney or are attorneys not allowed to purchase leads/contacts?

        I'm really trying to better understand what part of the transaction makes it illegal.

        In your opinion would a highly ranked attorney focused website leased to an attorney who then followed up on the leads collected be considered illegal?
        For attorneys it wouldn't be illegal, just against ABA rules if they solicited, but they could still lose their law license.

        What makes it illegal, and totalattorneys.com has gone through numerous lawsuits already, is when you advertise a site or have a website to generate leads for lawyers, you can't have legal content on there. You also can't advertise any sort of law practice.

        For example, if you setup a rental site for an attorney, and you have services offered or come across as a legit attorney website, YOU are breaking the law.

        Now if you have a site for lead generation purposes, that you disclose clearly on the website that you will put them in touch with attorneys that can handle their case, that is legal. Using call tracking is not legal. You receiving information about their case, and forwarding it to the attorney is not legal.

        I suspect that what the OP is wanting to do is technically legal and allowed by the ABA. Since he is simply selling the data, he probably wouldn't have anything to worry about.

        It's a tricky niche to sell lead gen services to, or do rental sites for.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlphaWarrior
    iAmNameLess is right. Lawyers can lose their law license if they call prospects who have not called them first. And not many lawyers are willing to take that chance.

    You may have better luck by looking for non-lawyer companies who try to work things out between debtors and creditors before and without filing bankruptcy.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Ventura
      Originally Posted by AlphaWarrior View Post

      iAmNameLess is right. Lawyers can lose their law license if they call prospects who have not called them first. And not many lawyers are willing to take that chance.

      You may have better luck by looking for non-lawyer companies who try to work things out between debtors and creditors before and without filing bankruptcy.
      The lawyers are not calling the leads, I have no phone information. They will be sending direct mail with the attorneys contact information, to my knowledge, direct mail is allowed if it meets guidelines.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by George Ventura View Post

        The lawyers are not calling the leads, I have no phone information. They will be sending direct mail with the attorneys contact information, to my knowledge, direct mail is allowed if it meets guidelines.
        The lawyers that are interested in using direct mail/ambulance chasing style acquisition already have the information in house, so what advantage would you provide?

        Yes, you're right, in some states direct mail is allowed. Few will do it since it's taboo in that profession.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheShark
    George,

    First of all, good job on doing your research. You can monetize the information you have and although I agree with the vast majority of what iAmNameLess says, he is somewhat off when he says not a good niche for selling leads. It actually is - depending on the quality and content of the information. In fact, now is a very good time to sell the information based upon many factors.

    There are three quick keys that come to mind:

    1) You have to be ethical & know the rules (you are trying to do that, so that is, as my son would say, awesome)

    2) You have to know your market (the attorneys and what they want to see)

    3) You have to package it right - you can sell the information by itself, but if you just package it with a little more value added, you can sell it much easier and make a LOT more money in the long run.

    The challenges:

    Everyone, their neighbor, and their deceased grandfather wants to sell to attorneys - a lot of competition (good news is that most don't know how to market to them correctly)

    Attorneys are "attacked" everyday by marketers (my main office alone gets at least 10 calls a day - that's not counting the calls my system filters out that we don't hear ring, let alone our satellites and don't get me started on the spam that makes it through our filters)

    Attorneys are jaded - we don't trust - because most people are selling snake oil and trying to steal our time (I personally get at least 4-5 sales people that con themselves through my gatekeeper acting like real potential clients, that once confronted don't understand why I won't sacrifice my time for 60 seconds after they blatantly lie to get to me - do they really think I would do business with someone that has already shown they are willing to lie and were good enough to get through my assistant...the only thing they've proven to me is that they are good liers, not salespeople that I can trust with?).
    Some follow up questions for you:

    1. What state can you get the information for?
    2. How timely are your leads?
    3. Are you wanting to turn this into a real business - or are you just trying the "I'll cold call" and "spam" them type?

    Depending on how you answer those questions, I'll give you some follow up advice...but here is my first piece:

    Depending on the quality of the information and how much it costs you, you may very well have information you can sell regularly, and make a good profit...don't give up.

    TheShark
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    • Profile picture of the author George Ventura
      Originally Posted by TheShark View Post

      George,

      First of all, good job on doing your research. You can monetize the information you have and although I agree with the vast majority of what iAmNameLess says, he is somewhat off when he says not a good niche for selling leads. It actually is - depending on the quality and content of the information. In fact, now is a very good time to sell the information based upon many factors.

      There are three quick keys that come to mind:

      1) You have to be ethical & know the rules (you are trying to do that, so that is, as my son would say, awesome)

      2) You have to know your market (the attorneys and what they want to see)

      3) You have to package it right - you can sell the information by itself, but if you just package it with a little more value added, you can sell it much easier and make a LOT more money in the long run.

      The challenges:

      Everyone, their neighbor, and their deceased grandfather wants to sell to attorneys - a lot of competition (good news is that most don't know how to market to them correctly)

      Attorneys are "attacked" everyday by marketers (my main office alone gets at least 10 calls a day - that's not counting the calls my system filters out that we don't hear ring, let alone our satellites and don't get me started on the spam that makes it through our filters)

      Attorneys are jaded - we don't trust - because most people are selling snake oil and trying to steal our time (I personally get at least 4-5 sales people that con themselves through my gatekeeper acting like real potential clients, that once confronted don't understand why I won't sacrifice my time for 60 seconds after they blatantly lie to get to me - do they really think I would do business with someone that has already shown they are willing to lie and were good enough to get through my assistant...the only thing they've proven to me is that they are good liers, not salespeople that I can trust with?).
      Some follow up questions for you:

      1. What state can you get the information for?
      2. How timely are your leads?
      3. Are you wanting to turn this into a real business - or are you just trying the "I'll cold call" and "spam" them type?

      Depending on how you answer those questions, I'll give you some follow up advice...but here is my first piece:

      Depending on the quality of the information and how much it costs you, you may very well have information you can sell regularly, and make a good profit...don't give up.

      TheShark
      - I'am currently working on my home state of CT, but I can expand into other states.
      - I can get lead information as soon as the lawsuit registers with the docket system, I can provide new foreclosure/collections cases on a daily basis
      - I'am hoping to turn this into a long term business, given if it gives me some sort of wage to make it worthwhile. I plan to have a content management system, so not just selling a excel list of names and addresses, as well as providing service to create a batches of personalized letters and eventually data analytics on the 400,000+ cases, 1,000,000+ documents i've collected for my state.

      I also see some providers sell exclusive lead data, example $500/month for a judicial county. Would this be a better model vs selling packaged leads?
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      • Profile picture of the author TheShark
        Let's see if I can help you a little.

        CT is probably not a great state to do it in, but it might be possible. If you are going to marketing to Bankruptcy attorneys - there were only slightly over 6k bankruptcies filed the entire 2015 year in in CT. If it is easily publicly accessible (meaning the attorney can get it themselves, doesn't save time, etc), then probably of little or no value.

        When it comes to defending lawsuits from collections agencies - not a big business for attorneys - most people don't hire attorneys (from my experience), they just let the collections go to default.

        If however, you have unique information you collect, there may be value. Your $500 per county is probably unrealistic considering you have 8 counties and 4 of which are very small, so charging 500 in a county of a little over 100k population when you charge the same for population of almost 1 million is probably not going to work, or at least not easily.

        If you can turn the potential leads into actual qualified leads and do it legally for your state rules (that apply to attorneys) - then you may have a product/service. I'd make that a sales point if your target it attorneys - Ethical Leads That Won't Get You In Trouble With the Bar.

        I'm not tell you to give up - I'm an optimist.

        What would make more money - larger bankruptcy state where you can get qualified leads (not just leads) and turn them into paying clients - those make the best ROI.

        Then you have to get the attorneys to listen to you - that is the hard part. Since writing this one response, my office, has received at least 3 calls trying to sell us something (the reason I put at least, is that we have a system that automatically prevents calls once they are verified solicitors).

        Just my quick comments.

        Also, there are approximately 470 self identified bankruptcy lawyers in CT - that's only about 12-13 cases a year per attorney or 1 a month - so you have to identify which ones are willing to hire you - there are ways to do that - but to ask $6,000 a year ($500 a month) when they are on average making 12-15k a year from their bankruptcy practice is probably not going to work. That is why you have to target focus your marketing.

        The Shark
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