Jordon Belfort ...Way Of The Wolf

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I ordered this book last March, it arrived yesterday.
If you are in sales at all, you have to read this book.

If you sell anything by phone, then you can used everything in the book to generate high profit sales. If you work by appointment, maybe 85% will apply. Still a fantastic read.

Belfort sold stocks of questionable value to rich people by cold calling. And he taught hundreds of people to do the same. Ignore the fact that these stocks were of dubious value...the system he used and teaches works.

He created a sales system called the Straight Line Selling System. I think it sold for $2,000 a few years ago. He's condensed it into a book.

I must warn you, Belfort swears. This book isn't for Girl Scouts selling cookies.

No, I don't make anything on the book. No, I've never met Belfort. No, he doesn't have my cat hostage.

Buy this book and read it. You can't borrow my copy.

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Wolf-Straight-Persuasion-Influence/dp/1501164287/
#belfort #jordon #wolf
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  • Profile picture of the author SARubin
    Funny you should bring this up, at this time. I just started going through his Straight Line Persuasion System (about half way through it, for the first time).

    So far it's pretty frickin' awesome.

    The guy was as slimy as they came, back in his boiler room stock days. But apparently he's turned his life around and preaches ethical salesmanship now. And he's got quite the gift for giving (and teaching) sales presentations.

    I'll have to go through the system a couple times to digest it all, but after I'm done, maybe I'll get the book.

    It'll be interesting to see how they compare.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

      The guy was as slimy as they came, back in his boiler room stock days. But apparently he's turned his life around and preaches ethical salesmanship now. And he's got quite the gift for giving (and teaching) sales presentations.
      .
      One thing about his sales system I didn't enjoy was his constant referring to his bad old days, and how important ethics was...and in the book he refers to not using pressure in selling. But the course is almost entirely about using techniques that force the sale.

      But ethics and how selling works are two different things. It's just as easy (and just as hard) to sell a great offer than a shady one.

      But if you ignore his past, and just look at what he teaches, it's about the best system out there on selling, especially selling over the phone.And his understanding of human nature, and what causes people to buy from you...is profound.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

    Belfort sold stocks of questionable value to rich people by cold calling. And he taught hundreds of people to do the same. Ignore the fact that these stocks were of dubious value...the system he used and teaches works.



    Bernie Madoff had a similar approach.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Bernie Madoff had a similar approach.
      Madoff didn't cold call.

      He asked his warm contacts about leads and used his position in society to get them to trust him.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Madoff didn't cold call.

        He asked his warm contacts about leads and used his position in society to get them to trust him.
        No, he didn't cold call, but he did LIE, CHEAT AND STEAL to do business.

        So yes, Belford's approach to doing business was exactly the same as Madoff's. (nice try at deflecting.)

        Same as any other Conman, Swindler, Thief. All of those accusations stick, when you refer to Belford.

        Belford's problem isn't sales, it's Ethics. He doesn't have any. He's still lying. Still breaking his promises to pay.

        For those of us who won't LIE, CHEAT OR STEAL to make sales, Belford's lack of ethics, his unscrupulous way of doing business, comes through in his materials. Like the odor of a skunk, once it's there, you can't get rid of it.

        Ron
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

          Belford's problem isn't sales, it's Ethics. He doesn't have any. He's still lying. Still breaking his promises to pay.

          For those of us who won't LIE, CHEAT OR STEAL to make sales, Belford's lack of ethics, his unscrupulous way of doing business, comes through in his materials. Like the odor of a skunk, once it's there, you can't get rid of it.

          Ron
          Could you please point out where that comes through?

          I am not an English native speaker, I honestly do not know what New York wiseguy sound like (or somebody with a midwestern accent). If one were to expunge references to Beltfort or if the material was presented by say...Claude, I wouldn't be able to infer the training comes out of an amoral person.

          Do crooks have an aura that follows them everywhere that transpires even when they are not referring to their crimes?

          If so, I wish I could see it, but I found that unless the crook was making a mistake (most do eventually, because crooks tend to be lazy), had cultural knowledge or did background research, I could not tell
          easily.

          I know there is at least one businessman who rose to some preminence in my city but
          unless you followed the national politics of his community, I doubt one could infer by his mannerisms alone he was very likely to be corrupt.

          EDIT: Even if for the sake of argument, the material itself was immoral, I think it would be a case of "Know thyself, know thy enemy".
          It is difficult to fight someone whose capabilities are unknown.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            Could you please point out where that comes through?

            I am not an English native speaker, I honestly do not know what New York wiseguy sound like (or somebody with a midwestern accent). If one were to expunge references to Beltfort or if the material was presented by say...Claude, I wouldn't be able to infer the training comes out of an amoral person.
            I'm not answering for Ron. I don't know his experience.

            But I can answer for myself.

            It came through loud and clear in his two books about "The Wolf Of Wall Street", and of course the movie about him.

            In his video course, he talks about it a little. And he overcompensates by repeatedly talking about ethics.

            But the actual training? No. The book? Not at all.

            One good thing about the book, and the training is you can graft it onto any sales presentation of any product. Most of what Belfort teaches is how to use tonality and language to establish and deepen rapport.

            The second half of Belfort's Straight Line System talks about "looping back", which means answering objections, rebuilding rapport, and closing again.

            I've never really done it on the phone, but certainly in people's homes. It is exhausting. And it's a part of his training I no longer do.

            Much of what Belfort teaches is stuff most top level salespeople do already. But his training in the use of language and tonality is something I haven't seen anywhere else, and it really is effective.
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            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              But his training in the use of language and tonality is something I haven't seen anywhere else, and it really is effective.
              I wonder why nobody else tries to expand on the use of language and tonality.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                I wonder why nobody else tries to expand on the use of language and tonality.
                Excellent question.

                To be honest, I don't think most salespeople give it much thought. Over the phone it becomes more important, because they can't see you.
                And it's difficult to explain in a book, although Belfort does a good job. (and offers a link to hear the actual tonality)

                But I know from experience that the way you sound and look when you say something carries a whole lot of meaning...far beyond the words you say.

                For example;

                "You look good"...Just that simple phrase can be said to carry lots of additional meanings. For example, you can say it in a way that absolutely communicates:

                "You look like you are going to die any minute"
                "I really like you"
                "I'm so glad I got to see you today"
                "Are you feeling well?"

                Think of actors in a dramatic scene. It's not the script, it's how they say the words, the meaning they convey, the emotional content....
                We've all seen it, a few words from a great actor and we know the ten other things that are unsaid...but meant.

                I simply think most sales trainers are unaware of these things.
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                • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  Think of actors in a dramatic scene. It's not the script, it's how they say the words, the meaning they convey, the emotional content....
                  The absolute best telemarketers I ever hired were NYC trained actors. i would take that old chestnut, "Paint a picture for them and place them in it," to "Create a play, make yourself the lead actor, but give the other person a good part for you to play off of." Sounds corny, but it allowed them to take a rather mundane and repetitious exercise and turn it into something they could sink their teeth into and actually enjoy - day after day after day. I was oftentimes amazed to observe how they would bring their entire skill set to the job.

                  I would love it when they would get off the phone after not making a sale and comment, "That guy had absolutely no talent and I was embarrassed being on stage with him." lol

                  Also, actors are extremely competitive individuals and each one tried to be the top salesman of the week. Had I stayed in Manhattan, I could have ruled the world. I had people that were that good. Of course, they were well-trained. Very well-trained, indeed. :-)

                  Thank you.

                  P.S. The script DOES matter - immensely.
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                  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                    Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

                    The absolute best telemarketers I ever hired were NYC trained actors. i would take that old chestnut, "Paint a picture for them and place them in it," to "Create a play, make yourself the lead actor, but give the other person a good part for you to play off of." Sounds corny, but it allowed them to take a rather mundane and repetitious exercise and turn it into something they could sink their teeth into and actually enjoy - day after day after day. I was oftentimes amazed to observe how they would bring their entire skill set to the job.

                    I would love it when they would get off the phone after not making a sale and comment, "That guy had absolutely no talent and I was embarrassed being on stage with him." lol

                    Also, actors are extremely competitive individuals and each one tried to be the top salesman of the week. Had I stayed in Manhattan, I could have ruled the world. I had people that were that good. Of course, they were well-trained. Very well-trained, indeed. :-)

                    Thank you.

                    P.S. The script DOES matter - immensely.
                    If you're in sales proper, and not all that interested in acting otherwise, would that still be helpful to get a book on the subject of acting or attend a few classes?
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                    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                      If you're in sales proper, and not all that interested in acting otherwise, would that still be helpful to get a book on the subject of acting or attend a few classes?
                      I can't really speak to that. When I first moved to NYC I signed-up for an acting class with one of those teachers you had to wait months or know someone to get in.

                      I attended one class and she threw me out. When I asked what I had done to upset her, she said, "Nothing, but I can't teach you anything. It appears that you arrived here with everything you need and I don't want you making many of my students who have trained with me for years, to be demoralized by having to view your gifts on a daily basis." Sweet. I wish my mother would have said something that nice to me, as I was growing up. It took a perfect stranger, observing me for a few hours to set me on my path, bursting with self-confidence, truly believing that I can do anything I set my mind to. I never took another class after that, so I can't attest as to how much you would benefit from dabbling. It's a very complex discipline and some basic prerequisite skills can make all the differences in the world as far as how much you'd enjoy it.

                      Honestly, what helped me the most was taking improv classes which are unlike acting classes, entirely. You learn to handle anything that is thrown at you and come up with an immediate response to any challenge, objection or uncomfortable situation. Ultimately, if you want to succeed in sales as well as in life, you need to be fearless. One-hundred percent, to the center of your core, totally fearless. You can't get that from any book, course, guru, mentor, drug or religious belief. You have to go out and live it, every single day - without compromising, making excuses or not facing every obstacle in life, head on. Most of our character traits are like muscles. If you start strengthening them early in life, by the time you need them the most they should be well developed and ready to serve you well.

                      I don't know if this all makes any sense and all I can do is relate my beliefs to you. They may not apply to anyone else on the planet, but they have served me well.

                      In the end you need your own game plan and playbook.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
                        Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

                        In the end you need your own game plan and playbook.
                        Having a unique approach does seem to ring true somewhat in my experience.

                        Sure there is the structure and key things that work that are ingrained over the years but I am always pleasantly surprised by sales people that have outstanding results when working for me and I often ask them about the little things they do to improve their results.

                        One said to me "I always compliment my customers on an aspect of their dress or grooming"

                        Say what?

                        They would say " Oh, I love your earings...or hairstyle, dress etc"

                        They were an expert at building rapport and it carried them through the sale.

                        Another would tell me how they matched colours to the clothing the prospect was wearing.

                        It was a logical approach based on the idea someone would only wear what they liked so if you showed them things similar to their clothing they were more responsive.

                        Another took a "Motherly" approach.

                        You can't go against your mother. . . can you?

                        Another was so good at creating a compulsive case for the prospect to follow. . . they went on to become successful in forensic accounting.

                        In each of these examples the sales people were women and I could hardly compliment someone of their "dress sense" or "personal grooming"

                        I have tried the colour matching thing when my normal presentation doesn't work.

                        Although I'm a father a "fatherly" approach is not really appropriate.

                        The "high pitched" voice thing has me thinking however.

                        Not that I'm ever high pitched but it is interesting that a certain audience - usually younger - gravitates to a higher voice as they hear a lower voice as authoritarian.

                        Authority has always worked for me but perhaps for the younger consumer the higher tones may be less intimidating. Maybe that's why the motherly voice or the social friend resonates with the clientele who my best sales people work with.

                        I love to find people who want to learn more.

                        Think.

                        Claude is one of those people.

                        Despite years of sales he is a sucker for a new sales book.

                        Sometimes those books validate his methods and other times they add to his repertoire.

                        Regardless of whether you like one particular person's style, script or methodology there is always room for individuality.

                        Success does come to individuals who create their own "playbook" regardless of where they garnered the knowledge and skills to put it together.

                        It pays to be a student of the craft.

                        Best regards,

                        Ozi
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                        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

                          They would say " Oh, I love your earings...or hairstyle, dress etc"i
                          It's funny how people respond differently to certain behaviors. If a salesperson tried that on me they would instantly lose my interest and respect as I would only have one way of thinking about them - totally insincere suck-up. lol

                          Another would tell me how they matched colours to the clothing the prospect was wearing.i
                          How do you know, before you arrive, what the other person will be wearing thereby allowing you to color coordinate? :-) Or am I missing something, here? Wouldn't be the first time.

                          Thank you.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

                          One said to me "I always compliment my customers on an aspect of their dress or grooming"
                          I often wondered why compliments on how I looked (years ago) turned me off. I think it's because I thought it was meaningless, and if a woman told me I looked good (or anything similar) I knew it was playing on vanity. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I find myself analyzing motives...

                          Two things completely turn me off from female reps;
                          A rep trying to act like she's attracted to me...or complimenting me on my looks. Have you ever seen a photo of me? It's not that I don't like a compliment, it's that it's amateurish. A rep once told me that he read one of my books and wanted me to test some ideas in radio......sincere or not, it appealed to me...and it worked out really well.


                          Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

                          The "high pitched" voice thing has me thinking however.

                          Not that I'm ever high pitched but it is interesting that a certain audience - usually younger - gravitates to a higher voice as they hear a lower voice as authoritarian.

                          Authority has always worked for me but perhaps for the younger consumer the higher tones may be less intimidating. Maybe that's why the motherly voice or the social friend resonates with the clientele who my best sales people work with.
                          One of the things I got out of the Belfort book was ending a statement on an up note, as though it were really a question. This appeals to younger people (i guess) but it also strongly suggests that the prospect should be following along.

                          For example; "This is Claude, from the Sweeper Store". If I end that on an up note, it sounds like I think they should be aware of what The Sweeper Store is...and maybe they should be expecting my call. I wouldn't do it on every sentence, because I think it loses its effectiveness with too much repetition.


                          Thank you for the compliment.
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                          • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                            I often wondered why compliments on how I looked (years ago) turned me off.
                            Because obsequious bullshit turns most people off.

                            Have you ever seen a photo of me?
                            Sadly, yes, but I quickly looked away? It was a reflex action.

                            Thank you for the compliment.
                            No compliment intended. It's Sunday. I never lie on Sunday. That's what the other six days of the week are reserved for.

                            You're welcome.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

                    P.S. The script DOES matter - immensely.
                    Of course it matters. You can't sculpt a masterpiece without clay. I was talking about te difference in actors and how they covey meaning to the words.

                    I think working in your office for a few months would have been a master class in phone selling.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      For those that want to get the videos of his training, Youtube has about 12 hours of his sales training (to a separate group)

                      Here's a link to the first training video. The others will show up beside this one.



                      In the book Way Of The Wolf he puts links to additional training materials and training videos.
                      Way of the Wolf - Book Resources | Jordan Belfort


                      Enjoy.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      About body language and voice inflection...

                      I'm not sure how much of that you can teach. Sure, if you're already using 95% of it, the book will tell you why it helps, and give you some pointers in making it more effective.

                      But I've trained hundreds of salespeople, and seen most of them in the field.

                      If they have a strong distracting quirk, or speak in a deadpan or caustic way....there isn't much I can do about it.

                      Try telling someone that they are deadpan when they talk. They won't see it, and won't understand what you mean.

                      I'm impressed that Belfort can get people to see the difference.

                      But when I was selling in people's homes...about 80% of them bought (if it was a referral). And if a newer rep did the presentation, there was about a 30% chance that the referral would buy.

                      Exactly the same product, price, presentation, prospects...so why the monumental difference?

                      1) I showed real interest in their questions, and gave believable clear answers.
                      2) I only showed features and benefits that applied to them. I made the product feel like a perfect match for them (maybe the biggest thing I did)
                      3) Although I let them stray from the presentation, I always came right back to it.
                      4) I complimented previous buying decisions. Almost nobody does that.
                      5) I mirrored their position on just about any complaint or belief.
                      6) And yes, I acted interested...sincere...sympathetic...and continually strengthened rapport.

                      Number 6 is what you get out of the Belfort book. Is it the most important part of selling? Not to me. ...maybe not even essential. After all, the other guys still made sales.

                      But I can tell you guys as a fact that matching and mirroring what the prospect is expressing to you makes them far more likely to buy. Part of selling is theater.
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                    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                      Tonality is a real thing; I've been hired to teach it
                      I'm a little confused on this point.

                      Claude and others seem to be saying that Belfort succeeds/succeeded in spite of his tonality. So what would you be teaching about tonality, Jason? Or, Jason, are you saying that Belfort would have been even more successful had he used the "right" tonality?

                      Or am I misunderstanding here what you mean by tonality?

                      Please clarify - anyone who can. Thanks.

                      Marcia Yudkin
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                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                        I'm a little confused on this point.

                        Claude and others seem to be saying that Belfort succeeds/succeeded in spite of his tonality. So what would you be teaching about tonality, Jason? Or, Jason, are you saying that Belfort would have been even more successful had he used the "right" tonality?

                        Or am I misunderstanding here what you mean by tonality?

                        Please clarify - anyone who can. Thanks.

                        Marcia Yudkin
                        Marcia;

                        Tonality, as Belfort teaches it...it how you vary your speech to convey emotion, concern, rapport, interest...etc.

                        Belfort's voice was simply irritating. You'll see what I mean when you hear it. But the way he varies the intention of his voice carries added meaning....

                        .You should watch the second video here. Click Training videos, and then watch the second video. You'll see exactly what we mean.

                        Way of the Wolf - Book Resources | Jordan Belfort
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                    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
                      Claude,

                      I still don't understand how someone who is a master of "tonality" could have an irritating voice! Surely someone who was so attentive to vocal characteristics could make his voice less irritating... if he wanted to, if it would have any effect on his results.

                      So I'm wondering if the irritating aspect was intentional on his part and irrelevant.

                      Marcia Yudkin
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                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                        Claude,

                        I still don't understand how someone who is a master of "tonality" could have an irritating voice! Surely someone who was so attentive to vocal characteristics could make his voice less irritating... if he wanted to, if it would have any effect on his results.

                        So I'm wondering if the irritating aspect was intentional on his part and irrelevant.

                        Marcia Yudkin
                        Not intentional.

                        You are using the word "Tonality" in a different way than Belfort. Even if your voice is irritating, you can use it to sound interested, sincere, and convey additional meanings.

                        Again, a quick listen to his videos will straighten it all out.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      A few more things about Belfort's methods..

                      In his original business (selling overpriced stock over the phone) it wasn't a true cold call. It was a two call process. The first call was to establish some rapport, gather information, and offer to send some information. Then they would wait a few days and call with their offer.

                      Although some of what he teaches (and everything he teaches on Tonality) can be used in a one call close, his business was set up for two calls.

                      I've read in other books on selling stocks that they use a three call system. The first to gather information, the second call to say "I haven't found a great stock yet, but will call you when I do" , and the third call for the actual pitch. Belfort just takes out the second call.

                      Belfort also doesn't teach answers to objections. He just assumes that they are reflexive delays in buying...usually because not enough trust has been established. Belfort teaches a couple generic deflections of the objection and the loops the prospect back into the next closing sequence.

                      Most of that I agree with. Objections are seldom real. They are just delays...or a polite way of saying "I'm not interested".

                      Balfort teaches selling as two parts. The first half is everything up until the first real closing attempt, and then the second half is playing catch getting objections and replying to them. I used to sell this way, and I have to tell you that it's effective...and exhausting.


                      Belfort is also big into trying to sell an outrageous amount of product on the first attempts (in his case stocks)...maybe starting out with a $300,000 order... and then lowering it until it matches the prospect's comfort zone....many times around the $5,000 mark.

                      This is one of those methods that I think don't translate well to most businesses. Even selling life insurance, starting off with a billion dollars in coverage would be ridiculous. There would be no way to justify it, even if the customer could afford it.

                      And Belfort even says in his book that his methods are built for outgoing cold calls. You wouldn't need most of what he teaches in retail (although I know tonality helps), or any inbound sales.

                      Anyway, that's enough beating that dead horse for now
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              • Profile picture of the author animal44
                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                I wonder why nobody else tries to expand on the use of language and tonality.
                Perhaps because it's BS...

                Makes a good angle to sell sales courses

                Take a look at this interview with Richard Branson:


                Who comes across as confident? Who looks uncomfortable? Who's um and arring and stuttering?

                Now, who's the hack on a salary and who's the billionaire...?

                Now, do you really think that tonality and body language matter...?
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                • Profile picture of the author socialentry
                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  Perhaps because it's BS...

                  Makes a good angle to sell sales courses

                  Take a look at this interview with Richard Branson:

                  Work hard, play hard: the Richard Branson business plan - YouTube

                  Who comes across as confident? Who looks uncomfortable? Who's um and arring and stuttering?

                  Now, who's the hack on a salary and who's the billionaire...?

                  Now, do you really think that tonality and body language matter...?
                  Yes.

                  It's a shame that oratory skills are lost upon Western audiences when they were once upon a time prized. To be able to express yourself correctly...to be able to convince your audience of your ideals is the foundation of political life.Indeed, it is the foundation of being a citizen.

                  Sure, I am certain that they are not a sina que non for barely breathing, but
                  if you are even a semi-decent speaker, why not use them?

                  Bragging about a lack of polish in speech is like bragging about a missing limb. It is the sign of a decadent culture.

                  Speaking of culture... you should look up Marcus Crassus, an excellent orator in his own right and easily one of the richest man in history.

                  Originally Posted by Plutarch

                  As for learning he chiefly cared for rhetoric, and what would be serviceable with large numbers; he became one of the best speakers at Rome, and by his pains and industry outdid the best natural orators. For there was no trial how mean and contemptible soever that he came to unprepared; nay, several times he undertook and concluded a cause when Pompey and Caesar and Cicero refused to stand up ,upon which account particularly he got the love of the people,
                  http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/crassus.html

                  I don't know about you but... compared to Crassus, your example seems a bit... quaint?
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Madoff didn't cold call.

        He asked his warm contacts about leads and used his position in society to get them to trust him.


        You've missed the point.

        Madoff taught family and employees how to scam people into buying dreams.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          You've missed the point.

          Madoff taught family and employees how to scam people into buying dreams.
          The family had no idea that his returns on investments were a lie. He had two accomplices, that worked in his office, that doctored the figures. His sons are the ones that turned him in after he confessed to them

          One of his brokers killed himself after he found out that it was a scam....and his clients lost most of their money.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The family had no idea that his returns on investments were a lie. He had one accomplice, that doctored the figures.

            One of his brokers killed himself after he found out that it was a scam....and his clients lost all their money.


            His son committed suicide after Bernie was convicted and Bernie took the fall, his family knew this. His brother (Peter) was sentenced for 10 years.

            Matter of fact everyone that wanted to know about the Madoff scam knew it years before he was convicted. The guy was investigated over a 16 year span before being convicted.

            Lol, those investors were all pie in the sky dolts. Now doubt those same clients are being ripped off by someone else today.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              His son committed suicide after Bernie was convicted and Bernie took the fall, his family knew this. His brother (Peter) was sentenced for 10 years.

              Matter of fact everyone that wanted to know about the Madoff scam knew it years before he was convicted. The guy was investigated over a 16 year span before being convicted.

              Lol, those investors were all pie in the sky dolts. Now doubt those same clients are being ripped off by someone else today.
              My post on the Madoff case was based on limited information I got from the news.

              To be honest, I didn't follow the case all that closely. I was never interested in learning how to scam investors. So I'll assume your post is correct.

              But now that we're talking about it, I think I'll buy a book that describes the entire drama. I bet there are lessons to learn there.

              Some of the most profound sales lessons I ever learned were from a self described con man. It was really easy to take what I learned from him and used it in a legitimate business. Just as it's really easy to learn sales techniques from Belfort and use them to sell a legitimate product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Lush
    The straight-line system is one of the best sales systems I've ever seen. You need to be a salesman to truly appreciate it though.

    Also, if you're not a reader, he has some video classes also - he's a pretty energetic speaker so its pretty easy to watch/listen.
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  • Profile picture of the author animal44
    So you need to be a convicted felon in order to be a great salesman...

    For the poor beginner, getting that cheque by the end of the week is not looking so good...
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    People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
    What I do for a living

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  • Profile picture of the author Lana2303
    I have heard a lot about this book. And more positive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eden A
    Thank you for the recommendation.
    I have seen his video course several time it's great!
    and helped me a lot to take it the next level, and for sure i'm going to
    read this book!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark68
    I'm interested in this book but there is some debate out there as to whether he paid back what he was supposed to in his settlement/fine/restitution with the courts and defrauded investors-separate from him "doing the time". Maybe he'll pay off the settlement with his earnings from the book?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Mark68 View Post

      I'm interested in this book but there is some debate out there as to whether he paid back what he was supposed to in his settlement/fine/restitution with the courts and defrauded investors-separate from him "doing the time". Maybe he'll pay off the settlement with his earnings from the book?
      There is no debate. He didn't pay it back.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark68
        True, there is no debate- bad choice of words. A simple google search will show that he paid about 11 million of the 100 million back. About 10 million was from seized property at the time of conviction-his houses cars etc. Very little effort has been made since then.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Mark68 View Post

          True, there is no debate- bad choice of words. A simple google search will show that he paid about 11 million of the 100 million back. About 10 million was from seized property at the time of conviction-his houses cars etc. Very little effort has been made since then.
          He tries (in his previous books and video) to make his crimes sound like just mistakes. But he knowingly scammed people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, without it bothering him at all. He ruined lives, and taught others how to ruin lives. But in the process, he created a masterful sales system that can work for just about any product or service....that is sold with the purpose of closing in one call. and most of what he teaches can be used in just about any business.

          His constant (in previous works) insisting that we sell ethically rings very hollow with me.

          But if you ignore all that, and just study what he has to teach about selling, it's a real goldmine of sound methodologies.

          I was speaking at an event once about marketing your business. I have a rather "worldly" way of talking. And I don't temper my language to suit the timid in the audience.

          After the speech a woman said to me " You gave really great advice. And I'm not going to let the fact that I don't like you personally stop me from benefiting from it"

          Her candor made me laugh. And she had the right mindset. Learn from the people who know, and know how to teach (Belfort is a master), and ignore how you feel about him as a person.
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          • Profile picture of the author eccj
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            He tries (in his previous books and video) to make his crimes sound like just mistakes. But he knowingly scammed people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, without it bothering him at all. He ruined lives, and taught others how to ruin lives. But in the process, he created a masterful sales system that can work for just about any product or service....that is sold with the purpose of closing in one call. and most of what he teaches can be used in just about any business.

            His constant (in previous works) insisting that we sell ethically rings very hollow with me.

            But if you ignore all that, and just study what he has to teach about selling, it's a real goldmine of sound methodologies.

            I was speaking at an event once about marketing your business. I have a rather "worldly" way of talking. And I don't temper my language to suit the timid in the audience.

            After the speech a woman said to me " You gave really great advice. And I'm not going to let the fact that I don't like you personally stop me from benefiting from it"

            Her candor made me laugh. And she had the right mindset. Learn from the people who know, and know how to teach (Belfort is a master), and ignore how you feel about him as a person.
            I have a hard time getting over the pitch of his voice when reading phone scripts.

            Maybe it was the recording quality but it's so high and enthusiastic I just can't imagine it working for phone sales?

            I must be missing something.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by eccj View Post

              I have a hard time getting over the pitch of his voice when reading phone scripts.

              Maybe it was the recording quality but it's so high and enthusiastic I just can't imagine it working for phone sales?

              I must be missing something.

              His voice is annoying. And my guess is that most of his reps had less than a radio voice as well. And they were mostly uneducated young men.

              And that's one of the things that impressed me the most. Even though he sounds like a con man (to me), and his voice is aggravating (to me)...he still sold millions of dollars of product a month. And he taught others...frankly less than bright..how to do it as well. His methodology is that good.

              Yes, he was unethical.
              Yes, he sounded like a low life hustler (at least his voice)
              And he isn't someone I'd ever want to hang around with.

              But his methodology is so well thought out, his understanding of human nature is so profound, his knowledge of the core of what makes people buy (or makes them object)...overcomes all of his flaws when pitching over the phone.

              And in his book (In many ways easier to stomach than his videos), he lays it all out. He is a gifted teacher, and it's impossible to not understand what he is saying.

              And for the people here that are in sales, but don't like Belfort or his evil ways, I get it. But you are letting your "virtue" get in the way of learning some real high end selling technique.

              This reminds me of the book Uncensored Sales Strategies: A Radical New Approach to Selling Your Customers What They Really Want - No Matter What Business You're In by Sydney Biddle Barrows. It is a remarkable book about how to run a service business. But the fact that Barrows ran a call girl service keeps many from reading the book. A mistake, if you have a service business...as almost everything she teaches applies to most any business.

              The purpose of this thread was to share with some of you a book I just read that teaches some incredibly effective sales techniques. And if you sell anything over the phone, this is the book to read.

              Anyway, I gave it a shot.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                And for the people here that are in sales, but don't like Belfort or his evil ways, I get it. But you are letting your "virtue" get in the way of learning some real high end selling technique..
                Let's be very clear about something. HE LIED TO MAKE SALES. The people he trained, who sold for him, LIED TO MAKE SALES.

                EVERYTHING he told his prospects, in order to get them to buy, was a LIE.

                That's not selling. That's conning. It's ripping off, but it's not selling.

                Could he teach people how to sell by lying to the prospect?

                You bet! He's real good at that. Proven track record.

                Could he teach people how to sell, just as well, without lying?

                In my opinion, No. He's been lying all of his sales career to make sales.
                He doesn't know any other way.

                Ron
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                  Let's be very clear about something. HE LIED TO MAKE SALES. The people he trained, who sold for him, LIED TO MAKE SALES.

                  EVERYTHING he told his prospects, in order to get them to buy, was a LIE.

                  That's not selling. That's conning. It's ripping off, but it's not selling.

                  Could he teach people how to sell by lying to the prospect?

                  You bet! He's real good at that. Proven track record.

                  Could he teach people how to sell, just as well, without lying?

                  In my opinion, No. He's been lying all of his sales career to make sales.
                  He doesn't know any other way.

                  Ron
                  Ron;

                  I know. I know he lied. I know he exaggerated. But that is immaterial to the techniques.

                  Whether it was a lie, the gospel, or somewhere in between, the techniques worked.

                  If you read the book, you'd see that he isn't teaching you how to lie, he's teaching you how to sell. What he teaches works. And you don't have to sell something shady for it to work.

                  If he wasn't using the system to sell overpriced stock, and instead was using it to sell gym memberships...it would work exactly the same way.

                  You asked "Could he teach people how to sell, just as well, without lying?"

                  To me, that's the core question, and I know the answer is yes. In fact he makes a good living now training salespeople to sell lots of different products and services over the phone. They are all legitimate products.

                  Anyway, if you read the book, you'd know what I mean.

                  A side note; I don't know this to be true, but I suspect it. He hired young guys that were eager to make a fortune, and they did.

                  I wonder how many of them knew the stock they sold were grossly overpriced. I have a pretty good understanding of his entire sales system (I have his course and read every book by him). It would have worked as well, whether the salesperson thought it was a great offer or a scam.

                  Belfort gives every indication to me that he is a psychopath. There is no doubt that he knew he was scamming people, and it didn't bother him at all. But the methods he taught/teach work just as well with a legitimate offer.

                  Why do I think this? You just can't get 1,000 psychopaths in a room together. Some of these guys had to believe they were real stock brokers selling real value. And the techniques worked for them too.

                  Added a little later;

                  Let's use this as an analogy.

                  Let's say Belfort taught how to drive a car. how did he learn how to drive a car? He was a get-a-way driver for the mob. But he studied driving, and became a fantastic car driver. And he is also a gifted instructor in how to drive a car.

                  To me, you (and a couple other) are hung up on the fact that he was a get-a-way driver for the mob.

                  And your argument to me is "He can't teach you how to drive, only how to drive a get-a-way car for the mob. And his driving skill only works if you are working for the mob"

                  But you can really learn how to drive...from Belfort....without working for the mob.

                  OK, you now have my best argument. You'll read the book or you won't.

                  My purpose was to share a resource I thought you guys would benefit from.
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                  • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Ron;

                    I know. I know he lied. I know he exaggerated. But that is immaterial to the techniques.

                    Whether it was a lie, the gospel, or somewhere in between, the techniques worked.

                    If you read the book, you'd see that he isn't teaching you how to lie, he's teaching you how to sell. What he teaches works. And you don't have to sell something shady for it to work.

                    If he wasn't using the system to sell overpriced stock, and instead was using it to sell gym memberships...it would work exactly the same way.

                    You asked "Could he teach people how to sell, just as well, without lying?"

                    To me, that's the core question, and I know the answer is yes. In fact he makes a good living now training salespeople to sell lots of different products and services over the phone. They are all legitimate products.

                    Anyway, if you read the book, you'd know what I mean.

                    A side note; I don't know this to be true, but I suspect it. He hired young guys that were eager to make a fortune, and they did.

                    I wonder how many of them knew the stock they sold were grossly overpriced. I have a pretty good understanding of his entire sales system (I have his course and read every book by him). It would have worked as well, whether the salesperson thought it was a great offer or a scam.

                    Belfort gives every indication to me that he is a psychopath. There is no doubt that he knew he was scamming people, and it didn't bother him at all. But the methods he taught/teach work just as well with a legitimate offer.

                    Why do I think this? You just can't get 1,000 psychopaths in a room together. Some of these guys had to believe they were real stock brokers selling real value. And the techniques worked for them too.

                    Added a little later;

                    Let's use this as an analogy.

                    Let's say Belfort taught how to drive a car. how did he learn how to drive a car? He was a get-a-way driver for the mob. But he studied driving, and became a fantastic car driver. And he is also a gifted instructor in how to drive a car.

                    To me, you (and a couple other) are hung up on the fact that he was a get-a-way driver for the mob.

                    And your argument to me is "He can't teach you how to drive, only how to drive a get-a-way car for the mob."

                    OK, you now have my best argument. You'll read the book or you won't.

                    My purpose was to share a resource I thought you guys would benefit from.
                    Well said. And I'm one of the Belfart haters. BUT, I'm going to get it today, read it. And then form my opinion. Thanks,

                    GordonJ

                    PS. You had me at mob.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    . He hired young guys that were eager to make a fortune, and they did..
                    Claude, the above quote is where you are focusing.

                    My focus is this: "They would not have made those sales, without the lies. That's why Belford's pitch, which he insisted they follow, had them lying to the prospect, every step of the way.

                    It's the same with Madoff. He wouldn't have made the money he did, without the con. The investors, would not have invested with him, thus no sales.

                    You picked Belford's book to promote, not me.

                    You could have picked any one of hundreds of sales books to promote. Guys with integrity and proven methods like Bill Good, who I saw mentioned in another thread. (pits & cherries)

                    I bought Bill's first book, over 30 years ago. I know his material, have used it, know that it works as described.

                    Bill and guys like him, didn't make a career out of training salespeople to con their prospects.

                    You and I have a different opinion on what is acceptable. I'll leave it at that.

                    Ron
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post


                      Bill and guys like him, didn't make a career out of training salespeople to con their prospects.

                      You and I have a different opinion on what is acceptable. I'll leave it at that.

                      Ron
                      No. I have failed to make you understand what I was saying. And for that, I apologize.

                      Added later; I am a huge fan of Ben Feldman. For decades he was the top life insurance salesman in the world. I've read every book he wrote, listened to every recording, and watched every video of him on stage and in action.

                      He was a real Legend in the life insurance business. And I've used what I learned from him to break sales records ......Like being the third top agent in a year (1977, I believe) out of 2,200 agents....

                      It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that much of the life insurance he sold was to members of the Youngstown Ohio mob...and that he kicked back much of his commission to get the sales. Not illegal at the time, but it sure is now.

                      And my thought was "So? What he taught worked. It worked so well that thousands of agents have profited from what he taught. And I've profited greatly from it...and nothing I learned from him is in any way immoral"...

                      And nothing Belfort teaches in the book is even remotely immoral. Why am I promoting this book here? Because it involves one call selling over the phone. And there are lots of people here that are trying to follow that model.

                      And I felt a moral obligation to let people know that this book is out there. Now, in my mind, that obligation has been met.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                        I am a huge fan of Ben Feldman.
                        It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that much of the life insurance he sold was to members of the Youngstown Ohio mob...and that he kicked back much of his commission to get the sales. Not illegal at the time, but it sure is now..
                        So the mob was doing lead gen. all those years ago.

                        They provided the life insurance lead that Ben Feldman sold insurance to.

                        And Feldman was paying them money each time he made a sale.

                        Of course the mob wasn't a licensed agency. So, yes, it's illegal for them to participate in OR receive monies involving the sale of insurance products.

                        It's the same thing for real estate, I hear.

                        Thanks for pointing that out.

                        Ron
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                        • Profile picture of the author eccj
                          Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                          So the mob was doing lead gen. all those years ago.

                          They provided the life insurance lead that Ben Feldman sold insurance to.

                          And Feldman was paying them money each time he made a sale.

                          Of course the mob wasn't a licensed agency. So, yes, it's illegal for them to participate in OR receive monies involving the sale of insurance products.

                          It's the same thing for real estate, I hear.

                          Thanks for pointing that out.

                          Ron
                          I'm guessing here.....

                          But it's more likely that the mob was using life insurance to launder money. The IRS caught on to this and redefined what a life insurance contract was sometime in the late 70's. Now these contracts that the mob was using would be called Modified Endowment Contracts and would not have the same tax benefits that a life insurance contract would have.

                          Feldman was probably, I don't know for sure, selling these contracts to the mob at the time and it was kinda sorta legitimate. I hope that he wasn't doing anything more sinister than that.

                          If the mob was placing a lot of money in these contracts they would ask for a rebate on commission. You can ask your real estate agent the same thing in most states. However, with life insurance the rates are set by actuaries and are accepted by the state insurance commissioner so the agent cannot change the cost of a policy.

                          Back in the day an agent could give some of his commission money to the person that bought the policy or as a referral fee. Not so today because that is now considered selling without a license.

                          Today agents have to go through Anti Money Laundering training. I've been through it at least five times. A lot of this came about after 9-11 but most of it was used to combat the mob.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                            Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                            I'm guessing here.....

                            But it's more likely that the mob was using life insurance to launder money. The IRS caught on to this and redefined what a life insurance contract was sometime in the late 70's. Now these contracts that the mob was using would be called Modified Endowment Contracts and would not have the same tax benefits that a life insurance contract would have.

                            Feldman was probably, I don't know for sure, selling these contracts to the mob at the time and it was kinda sorta legitimate. I hope that he wasn't doing anything more sinister than that.

                            If the mob was placing a lot of money in these contracts they would ask for a rebate on commission. You can ask your real estate agent the same thing in most states. However, with life insurance the rates are set by actuaries and are accepted by the state insurance commissioner so the agent cannot change the cost of a policy.

                            Back in the day an agent could give some of his commission money to the person that bought the policy or as a referral fee. Not so today because that is now considered selling without a license.

                            Today agents have to go through Anti Money Laundering training. I've been through it at least five times. A lot of this came about after 9-11 but most of it was used to combat the mob.
                            Yeah, "guessing" may not be the best approach, eh?

                            I'm just going by what Claude wrote, which had nothing to do with laundering money or Endowment Contracts, etc.

                            Sounded like, from Claude's description, there were monies received based on the sale of of an insurance policy . And of course without a license that's illegal.

                            Claude wrote: "It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that much of the life insurance he sold was to members of the Youngstown Ohio mob...and that he kicked back much of his commission to get the sales. Not illegal at the time, but it sure is now."

                            It always comes down to "Intent" and whether the "intentions" were to circumvent the law.

                            Ron
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                          So the mob was doing lead gen. all those years ago.

                          They provided the life insurance lead that Ben Feldman sold insurance to.

                          And Feldman was paying them money each time he made a sale.

                          Of course the mob wasn't a licensed agency. So, yes, it's illegal for them to participate in OR receive monies involving the sale of insurance products.

                          It's the same thing for real estate, I hear.

                          Thanks for pointing that out.

                          Ron
                          No. The mob wasn't providing lead generation. Many of his large sales were to people connected to the mob.

                          And he made many of these sales by rebating part of his commission back to the buyer. He didn't pay the mob. It was solely a rebate to the insurance buyer, to get the policy issued...and the person covered. This was a common practice back then, but discounts and rebates are now not allowed. Nothing evil taking place here.

                          Feldman didn't break the law. Many of his clients were in the construction, trucking, and trash removal business..heavily connected to the mob. It wasn't money laundering. It was rebating to get the sale.

                          Feldman didn't just sell to the mob. He sold almost exclusively to business owners in Youngstown Ohio. And the mob was strong in the 1970s, when most of these sales took place. Of course, many of his larger sales were to mob members. They had families the same as everyone else. And they were the market that was available.

                          I've sold vacuums to mob members. But only a few. (In Pennsylvania) Frankly their credit wasn't strong enough to qualify for financing. In life insurance, credit isn't an issue.

                          Frankly, I'm not sure why this discounting practice became illegal. Maybe it had to do with insurance companies getting into the mutual fund and investment business.


                          Originally Posted by eccj View Post


                          If the mob was placing a lot of money in these contracts they would ask for a rebate on commission. You can ask your real estate agent the same thing in most states. However, with life insurance the rates are set by actuaries and are accepted by the state insurance commissioner so the agent cannot change the cost of a policy.
                          I'm very sorry, I wasn't clear about this. The mob didn't get the rebate, the insurance buyer (the insured) did. The mob wasn't buying the insurance, and individual...who happened to be in that business...bought the policy. There wasn't any money laundering, or paying the mob to do business.

                          Frankly, at the time...in Youngstown Ohio...the mob was so involved in so many businesses that it would have been nearly impossible to make large sales to business owners...without making sales to mob members...or people connected to them.

                          The only reason I brought Feldman up at all was that his methods worked just as well for me, even though I wasn't selling life insurance to any mob connected people

                          Just as the techniques taught by Belfort work just as well whether the person using them is selling junk or something really good for the customer.

                          And that analogy got lost. My fault.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                      You picked Belford's book to promote, not me.

                      You could have picked any one of hundreds of sales books to promote. Guys with integrity and proven methods like Bill Good, who I saw mentioned in another thread. (pits & cherries)

                      I bought Bill's first book, over 30 years ago. I know his material, have used it, know that it works as described.
                      I want to address that. I've read both of Bill Good's books. The first one was an eye opener for me. There are maybe a dozen other books on telephone prospecting/selling that I would wholeheartedly recommend.

                      Here's the thing. I've read over 2,000 books on selling over the past few decades. I know that, because I have more than that in my library at home.

                      And to be blunt, at my age and level of experience, it's rare that I read a book that adds much to what I already know. There are probably 3 people on this forum (past and present) that can say the same thing.

                      I wanted to let you guys know about this book because it covers new ground. It talks about facets of selling...important ones...that I haven't read about before.

                      Frankly, I was doing some (but not all) of what is in Belfort's book before I read it. But I hadn't read about it before...anywhere.

                      And so, because Belfort's book covered new ground, covering essential concepts in selling...along with the actual techniques to go along with these concepts, I decided to share my find with you guys.

                      If you ever get a chance to see (on video) Belfort's Straight Line Selling course, you would be in awe of what you could learn. This book is simply the much cheaper and more condensed version of it.

                      And my desire to learn.... and my desire to share these valuable resources when I find them....overcame my personal revulsion of Belfort as a human being. Notice, I didn't recommend his first two "Wolf of Wall Street" books. Two books about his life (which I'm not interested in), and about how he got arrested and turned in his friends to get a lighter sentence. Something else I'm not interest in. I actually read most of those two books, and thy are pitiful attempts to make what he did seem cool. It wasn't cool.

                      Some of the best sales lessons I've ever learned were from people I didn't like, didn't trust, or simply wouldn't want to meet. But if they know something I don't....I'll certainly read their book.

                      Anyway, That's all I wanted to say.
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          • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            He tries (in his previous books and video) to make his crimes sound like just mistakes.
            All crimes are a mistake, whether well-rationalized or not.

            Thank you.
            Signature

            "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

              All crimes are a mistake, whether well-rationalized or not.

              Thank you.
              Yes, serious crimes...as I have pointed out repeatedly.

              And by the way, you are the other person that is an expert on phone selling. I think you'd enjoy the book.
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              • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Yes, serious crimes...as I have pointed out repeatedly.
                Serious is a relative term. :-)

                And by the way, you are the other person that is an expert on phone selling. I think you'd enjoy the book.
                Although I formally retire in 11 days, I have ordered the book on your recommendation. At least now I should have time to read it. It has been years since I have had time to read any book - other than yours, of course. :-) I figured I'd catch up on my reading once I was officially declared dead.

                Thank you.
                Signature

                "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Hi Claude,

    His comeback has been inspired.

    As for his selling, I'd have to check out the course but if it's about helping folks and allowing them to buy from you of their own choice - versus the hard sell - I am for it.

    Not sure if the course would go along those lines though.

    Different strokes, different folks.

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      Hi Claude,

      His comeback has been inspired.

      As for his selling, I'd have to check out the course but if it's about helping folks and allowing them to buy from you of their own choice - versus the hard sell - I am for it.

      Not sure if the course would go along those lines though.

      Different strokes, different folks.

      Ryan
      Ryan; It's impossible to get someone to buy without it being their choice. But his sales system is all about one call closing. And in his business it was cold calling wealthy people and getting them to invest big in stocks, all in one call.

      He teaches how to do it well and professionally...but to some it's the very definition of a hard sell.

      But you can take pieces of what he teaches and apply it to any approach, and product, any temperament.
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      As for his selling, I'd have to check out the course but if it's about helping folks and allowing them to buy from you of their own choice - versus the hard sell - I am for it.

      Not sure if the course would go along those lines though.

      Different strokes, different folks.

      Ryan
      Well, Ryan, I'm almost through my first round with this "Straight Line System" and here's what I've gathered from it so far, in relation to your comment (query?) ...

      He preaches ethical persuasion, but his own ethics still seem a bit questionable?

      On the other hand, his sales teachings (mindset and techniques) are quite impressive.


      But like most skills, the techniques in this course are neither good nor evil.

      It really comes down to individual intent, and what you decide to use them for.

      Are your personal intentions to guide people, and help them make good buying decisions, that will truly improve their lives...

      Or, are your intentions just to manipulate people, and make a fast buck, without regard to the other person's best interest?
      (of course, I'm not talking about you personally, Ryan. I've read many of your posts, and believe you to be the epitome of ethics, and good intention. I'm just speaking in general terms.)



      All the best,
      SAR
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  • Profile picture of the author Alangile
    Thanks for the recommendation! It is necessary to read ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zazz
    Thanks for the book suggestion!
    Amazon says it was published September 26, 2017
    That's wow! recent.

    I'm a fan, but for some reason, I immediately associated him with The Mooch, when the Mooch came on the radar earlier this summer.

    So Belfort and Anthony Scaramucci to me have very similar styles.
    (Colbert caricature of the latter comes to mind, for some reason)
    As long as I don't buy into his pipe dreams, I always enjoy when he puts on a show ... despite his sometimes annoying voice.

    Greed trumps annoying voice?

    I recall the "Sales Mooch" was putting a lot of importance on the pitch of voice when reading a phone script - in the videos where he was teaching his sales method. How is that rendered in the book? You can't hear him in a book...

    So I wonder if, to best learn from Belfort, the best way is to SEE the guy perform, as opposed to just reading him. So see him perform. and then read him to complement that body of work?

    Anyway, I will surely buy his new book Thx for the link!

    ---
    Funny, one of the book coments goes:

    "Its interesting that in the beginning of the book Jordan does apologize for his actions and reminds you the reader to do the right thing for the buyer your client."

    That is probably a requirement by his lawyer, haha.
    Like someone selling a book that teaching you how to pick locks, but telling you to use that knowledge to only do good thinks.

    So Belford embraced the "dark side" of the force ... I mean of selling
    ... which is the force if you can master it Jedi-like
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Bryan Zazz View Post

      I always enjoy when he puts on a show ... despite his sometimes annoying voice.

      Greed trumps annoying voice?
      First, I never made the connection of styles with "The Mooch" and Belfort, but now that you've pointed it out, yeah.

      It isn't that greed trumps annoying voice. It's that sales skills trump an annoying voice. To me, Belfort sounds like a New York gangster that sells stolen guns. His voice, mannerisms, and way of thinking are repellent to me.



      Originally Posted by Bryan Zazz View Post

      I recall the "Sales Mooch" was putting a lot of importance on the pitch of voice when reading a phone script - in the videos where he was teaching his sales method. How is that rendered in the book? You can't hear him in a book...

      So I wonder if, to best learn from Belfort, the best way is to SEE the guy perform, as opposed to just reading him. So see him perform. and then read him to complement that body of work?
      I'm glad you brought this up. It's more than just the tone of voice...it's the cadence, amplitude, timing, certainty in the voice, "caring" in the voice...and more.

      And I don't think you can really get that without seeing it in a video. The good news is that there are lots of Belfort sales training videos on Youtube, and they show the way he does it.

      And this is really advanced selling. I've mentioned this before, the reason hypnosis works is that the subject believes the hypnotist's suggestion of reality. And for that belief to transfer, the hypnotist has to sound certain...absolutely certain. It's this transference of certainty that drives hypnosis. And Belfort teaches the same thing..how to transfer certainty to the prospect. And it's done mostly through how you speak (and body language and facial expressions in person), even more than what you say.

      Watch a great actor...a slight change in expression can carry loads of meaning. A shift in posture, a raised eyebrow, leaning forward slightly, lowering your voice slightly...can make a big difference. And it's that kind of thing Belfort is talking about.

      And it works powerfully. Belfort talks about tonality, because he sells over the phone.
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      • Profile picture of the author eccj
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        First, I never made the connection of styles with "The Mooch" and Belfort, but now that you've pointed it out, yeah.

        It isn't that greed trumps annoying voice. It's that sales skills trump an annoying voice. To me, Belfort sounds like a New York gangster that sells stolen guns. His voice, mannerisms, and way of thinking are repellent to me.





        I'm glad you brought this up. It's more than just the tone of voice...it's the cadence, amplitude, timing, certainty in the voice, "caring" in the voice...and more.

        And I don't think you can really get that without seeing it in a video. The good news is that there are lots of Belfort sales training videos on Youtube, and they show the way he does it.

        And this is really advanced selling. I've mentioned this before, the reason hypnosis works is that the subject believes the hypnotist's suggestion of reality. And for that belief to transfer, the hypnotist has to sound certain...absolutely certain. It's this transference of certainty that drives hypnosis. And Belfort teaches the same thing..how to transfer certainty to the prospect. And it's done mostly through how you speak (and body language and facial expressions in person), even more than what you say.

        Watch a great actor...a slight change in expression can carry loads of meaning. A shift in posture, a raised eyebrow, leaning forward slightly, lowering your voice slightly...can make a big difference. And it's that kind of thing Belfort is talking about.

        And it works powerfully. Belfort talks about tonality, because he sells over the phone.
        This whole thread has been really interesting to me.

        I've been interested in one phone call closing of late because it has shown it's profitable use in my business almost by accident (long story).

        The thing is, it's profitable for me to do it but I've never hired anyone else as a W2 employee so I'm trying to see if I can scale this thing. If I can then this will bring another leg to the stool of my business making it MUCH more safe.

        I don't care if Belfort's voice is annoying personally. I've learned to talk differently on the phone so I have a hard time accepting that his voice and tonality is how it should be done.

        Whenever I call other business owners I call as another business owner; no high pitch, no going up in tonality, it's all business. The same way Chet Holmes teaches it.

        Belfort does the opposite. Maybe it seems supper high because he already has a high voice and if, say, with a Midwestern voice read the script it would still work.

        IDK, I've ordered the book so we will see.

        Has anyone here tried calling with the same tonality and type of script? I guess that's the real question.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by eccj View Post


          Belfort does the opposite. Maybe it seems supper high because he already has a high voice and if, say, with a Midwestern voice read the script it would still work.

          IDK, I've ordered the book so we will see.

          Has anyone here tried calling with the same tonality and type of script? I guess that's the real question.
          As I've said, Belfort's voice is a distraction and works against him. It's that the techniques he uses are so solid, that they overcome his aggravating voice.

          He doesn't give you an entire script, because almost nobody reading the book will be selling what he sold. But the methodology works in hundreds of different industries.
          And yes, before I listened to Belfort videos and read his books, I already used much of what he teaches (and uses himself). He didn't originate how he sells, he just explains it well.

          If you were to give this book to a highly productive phone salesperson, selling high end deals over the phone...in one call....they would read the book, nodding their head in agreement..and occasionally smiling because they learned something new.

          That was my experience as well.

          There is a forum member here that goes by Misterme. He's about the best I've ever talked to on the subject of selling. A guru in his own industry. If he read the Belfort book, I'm pretty sure he would say what I said, or thereabouts.

          When he talks about "Tonality" it isn't about the pitch of your voice. It's about using your voice to captivate attention and keep it. It's about conveying emotion, conviction, empathy. It's a huge part of what actors learn.

          Heck, Ben Feldman (world's greatest life insurance salesman) had a lisp, a high pitched voice, and sounded like a weak kitten with asthma. He also slumped when he walked and talked slowly..If you saw him on the street you would think he was a weak old man.

          Watching him speak on stage was shocking. Could this really be the guy that outsells all the Greats? Yes. Why? Because of the conviction in his voice. Every word, every syllable, every inflection....every pore in his body exuded Certainty...certainty that you should buy life insurance from him. And that's what Belfort teaches... and that's what I do.

          There. Now you know the real secret to great selling.
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          Originally Posted by eccj View Post

          Has anyone here tried calling with the same tonality and type of script? I guess that's the real question.
          I did, I modified the script in his booklet to my needs, it was fun.

          I did limited A/B testing to compare with Claude's methods. Claude's both had higher closing rate and also it was less time consuming. Also while in the SLP training he says to loop thrice at most, but in my case the vast vast majority of the time, it's either loop/rebutt once or the guy is not going to buy.

          it works but it requires you to be on the ball all the time and it can be tiring after a while.

          For what it's worth...YMMV
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  • Profile picture of the author alnodeya
    Thank you Claude for the recommendation, I bought it electronically so had it instantly on my iPad. I'm a third of a way through it so far and trying to soak it all in. Very easy to read and learning lots. Will promise to be responsible with this new power
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    "The Wolf Of Wall Street" played by Leonardo DiCaprio is the true story of Jordan Belfort.

    Even while the movie was being made there were some suspicious activities going on:

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...al-red-granite

    His story was also covered by the show "American Greed" in 2015.

    It is a good book Claude. Thanks for your post.
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  • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
    I just want to say that I found this whole thread extremely interesting and I'd like to thank Claude for starting it.

    Marcia Yudkin
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    Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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    • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
      First, it is JORDAN not Jordon. When someone spells my name wrong, Gordan, they get automatic demerits in my mind, so let's give the guy a correct spelling.

      I have the book in my hand. I also have a couple of Claude's books on my Fire open.

      Belfart's book (spelling on purpose, to show disrespect for the stinky man) didn't offer anything new, in my opinion, those familiar have seen his straight line before. For me, spend your money on Claude, not Jordan.

      Selling seems so contrived and manipulative. So let me tell you about a guy, who doesn't have a book, and his wildly successful sales system, OK?

      We called him Toothpick Pete. A consumer electronics superstar.

      He would come to work, find a spot near the TVs or VCR's and lean back and close his eyes, you almost had to wake him up.

      His pitch was like this: You looking at TV's?
      PROSPECT: Yes.
      PETE: Then buy this one.

      Left most customers mystified. Why this one?

      Because, Pete would say, it is the one I bought for my mother.

      If pressed, Pete would say, Look around. See all those young guys in their 20's, most won't last a year, and they want to make a fast buck, you'll never see them again. I've been doing this for a decade, it is my career. I know what I'm talking about and most of my business comes from repeat customers. Buy this one or go get one of those kids to wait on you, they'll sell. you anything.

      That was his long pitch. And for the time I worked with him, he was the top salesman in 3 different chains of consumer electronics.

      Now Belfort somewhat covers this, but as he says in his introduction, he can sell anything to anybody.

      What Pete did, and I think many of the "straight liners" do, is not just act the authority, but BE THE AUTHORITY.

      Pete would cut to the chase, Buy it because I told you to.

      What else did you need to know?

      That is about as straight a line as it gets. Of the 3 10's, Pete had certainty before he ever engaged. It is a very powerful strategy which gets results.

      If I walked in Claude's store and asked him which one he would buy for his mother, I'd walk out with whatever brand he told me.

      Don't we all work toward being THE authority (or one of them) in our own lines of expertise?

      GordonJ
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  • Going back a bit to the "compliment" thing to build rapport.

    Many feel it can come across as insincere and full of false flattery.

    One way round this (apart from being sincere) is to justify to compliment.

    Along the lines of -

    "I like your office because_______"

    Your dress, suit, tie, earrings (whatever) looks great because_______"

    Your company is fantastic because _______"


    This tends to work because you are giving a solid "reason why" for the compliment.


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Going back a bit to the "compliment" thing to build rapport.

      Many feel it can come across as insincere and full of false flattery.

      One way round this (apart from being sincere) is to justify to compliment.

      Along the lines of -

      "I like your office because_______"

      Your dress, suit, tie, earrings (whatever) looks great because_______"

      Your company is fantastic because _______"


      This tends to work because you are giving a solid "reason why" for the compliment.


      Steve
      Not really. Those just shows that you are willing to put a little more forethought in to your sucking-up.
      Signature

      "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Going back a bit to the "compliment" thing to build rapport.

      Many feel it can come across as insincere and full of false flattery.

      One way round this (apart from being sincere) is to justify to compliment.

      Along the lines of -

      "I like your office because_______"

      Your dress, suit, tie, earrings (whatever) looks great because_______"

      Your company is fantastic because _______"


      This tends to work because you are giving a solid "reason why" for the compliment.


      Steve

      Steve;

      Another way to do it is to ask a question that implies a compliment..like "May I ask where you get your suits?" Or when you find out that they have a hobby, or something you are genuinely interested in...ask their opinion. Personally, I never fake this. I never want to pretend I'm interested in something when I'm not...it derails the conversation.

      Another way is to give an opinion that you already know they will agree with, like "I think it's important that we shop locally, don't you?". But don't say it right after they said that they thought we should shop locally.

      And never guess. I've had customers say "We like to shop locally" when they buy from me, and I don't think of it as a compliment at all...although I say that agree with them.

      I'll be honest with you guys, I don't do much of that anymore. Asking questions in a friendly way...actually listening to what they say.....builds rapport for me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Going back a bit to the "compliment" thing to build rapport.

      Many feel it can come across as insincere and full of false flattery.

      One way round this (apart from being sincere) is to justify to compliment.

      Along the lines of -

      "I like your office because_______"

      Your dress, suit, tie, earrings (whatever) looks great because_______"

      Your company is fantastic because _______"


      This tends to work because you are giving a solid "reason why" for the compliment.


      Steve
      Thanks Steve,

      My staff member that dishes out the compliments does actually do what you say.

      They justify their compliment by giving a valid reason.

      In my previous post all of the salespeople I was talking about were female and in most cases they are selling to females.

      Maybe that is why I feel very uneasy about the compliments and why Claude and F and others feel uneasy about it.

      Most of the compliments are things like "I like your earrings they really go well with XXXXX"

      "Where did you get them?"

      It kills me everytime I hear them use it but the success rate and increase in average dollar sale speaks for itself.

      The comments are not insincere and the person genuinely is interested in whatever they have payed a compliment to but for someone else it just wouldn't work.

      I recently attended this salesperson's wedding and was blown away by the huge turnout and the comments that everyone made.

      There is a crazy skill in developing a true social network where someone understands the entire network, knows their name, relationships, family details etc etc.

      This person has all of that data saved for hundreds and hundreds of people.

      A bit Rainman if you ask me but seriously loved by both customers and the huge group of people they influence.

      They can instantly remember customer's kids names and the schools they go to. The clothes they were wearing, their favourite colours and so on.

      The reason they can remember these these things is they are actively listening and they know the power of really getting to know people. BTW - they don't use Facebook and have never.

      I think women are just so much better at relationships and the ones that can sell too could run rings around most other people.

      I've heard Claude talk about a convention he went to one year when he was having outstanding results yet he didn't win the top sales award. It was a woman who outsold him by a significant amount.

      Claude might share that story here or reference it, if he's previously posted the story somewhere.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        I've heard Claude talk about a convention he went to one year when he was having outstanding results yet he didn't win the top sales award. It was a woman who outsold him by a significant amount.

        Claude might share that story here or reference it, if he's previously posted the story somewhere.

        Best regards,

        Ozi
        It was for the company that made the vacuums I sold in people's homes.

        I met the winner of the company record for net sales in a calendar month. It was a woman who made 60 sales that month.

        I talked to her for a few hours. she wanted to talk to me because she thought I did a remarkable job selling 25 out of 26 presentations (in the contest month). She told me that she sold 60, and I asked her how she did it....

        She said she went on 120 presentations that month.

        Now, these aren't ten minute presentations. They are at least a couple hours..including writing it up. My guess is that she actually worked 10-12 hours a day...every day.

        She thought I was the better salesperson because I close almost all my presentations.

        But of course she was really the better salesperson because she sold more than twice what I sold.

        I think her secret was simply endurance.

        And now that we are on that subject, I think women are far better at "tonality" and rapport than men. It comes to them more naturally.
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        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          And now that we are on that subject, I think women are far better at "tonality" and rapport than men. It comes to them more naturally.
          You left out the most important fact. Men are fish.

          Thank you.
          Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author animal44
        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        There is a crazy skill in developing a true social network where someone understands the entire network, knows their name, relationships, family details etc etc.

        This person has all of that data saved for hundreds and hundreds of people.

        A bit Rainman if you ask me but seriously loved by both customers and the huge group of people they influence.

        They can instantly remember customer's kids names and the schools they go to. The clothes they were wearing, their favourite colours and so on.

        The reason they can remember these these things is they are actively listening and they know the power of really getting to know people.
        Dead right. I'd attribute my success in part to this... A sizable part....

        Originally Posted by Oziboomer View Post

        I think women are just so much better at relationships and the ones that can sell too could run rings around most other people.
        Sexist claptrap Men can be just as good. Maybe the Alpha types might have to work a little harder at it... Most women do it more naturally,..

        BTW I have a huge collection of sales material including Belfart's SLS and his book... I still think he's a sleazebag.
        His cold call opener would result in, at best, a hang up from me...
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        • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Dead right. I'd attribute my success in part to this... A sizable part.....
          My crews hated it when I hired women. They generally put them to shame, but they burnt out quickly. Only had a few that lasted any significant length of time.
          Signature

          "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    After reading the comments...which were all very interesting, I was wondering if most people stopped to remember one seemingly overlooked thing as they were hearing about Belfort's great telemarketing skills:

    It took thousands and thousands of calls...hangups, etc. to build his empire. They were preying on the weak and vulnerable and obviously they found them.

    When you read about his "super" skills it's easy to think they work on the majority of the people...they absolutely do not!

    So, just because someone reads about what worked for Belfort and his boiler rooms, remember it took years and many many many no's and hangups to get where he got. It only takes a small amount of all those calls to be suckers for his game, and then they played those suckers for every dime they could squeeze out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      It took thousands and thousands of calls...hangups, etc. to build his empire. They were preying on the weak and vulnerable and obviously they found them.

      When you read about his "super" skills it's easy to think they work on the majority of the people...they absolutely do not!
      He addressed that in the book. They would ask one or two qualifying questions and move on. It was much more a matter of sorting than selling. Very easy to get them off the phone.

      The purpose of the methodology he teaches is to make it more likely that the person will stay engaged once they are qualified and show an interest.

      Although I didn't remember any specific numbers, I'm sure they had to make dozens or even hundreds of cold calls before they found one that "clicked". I seem to remember that these guys would make maybe 300 calls a day. At the outrageous commissions they paid, just one sale a day would make you wealthy.

      I worked with a telemarketer cold caller once that did the opposite approach, try to engage and sell everyone. He was expert at creating rapport and keeping them on the line. But very few actually bought. Eventually I figured out that it would have been much faster to just let the unqualified/disinterested ones go on about their day.

      What Belfort teaches makes selling easier. And most really great salespeople are doing what he teaches anyway. Belfort just explains what they are doing that is different from most.

      My guess is that most of what he did and teaches came from his early days as a legitimate broker...and the training he received there. I don't think his insights on "tonality" would come intuitively.

      And this isn't directed at you.

      I suspect that most of the posts deriding the book are coming from people who haven't read it. ...or even have seen his Straight Line Selling Course.

      I'm pretty confident that anyone here is intelligent enough to get something of value out of the book, if they are in the selling profession.
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Eventually I figured out that it would have been much faster to just let the unqualified/disinterested ones go on about their day.
        I always trained my people that as soon as the heard the 'N' in 'No' getting ready to exit the prospects mouth, to immediately hang up and call someone who's ready to say, Yes."

        I'm pretty confident that anyone here is intelligent enough to get something of value out of the book, if they are in the selling profession.
        Book arrived from Amazon, today. Looking forward to reading it. Official retiring in two days. Reading a book is my first 'treat' as I move into the next chapter of my life. I'm just happy that I did well for myself and my people without ever reading it, beforehand.

        Thank you.
        Signature

        "He not busy being born, is busy dying." - Bob Dylan • "I vibe with the light-dark point. Heavy." - Words that Bob Dylan wishes he had written.

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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post


          Book arrived from Amazon, today. Looking forward to reading it. Official retiring in two days. Reading a book is my first 'treat' as I move into the next chapter of my life. I'm just happy that I did well for myself and my people without ever reading it, beforehand.

          Thank you.
          Believe me, you ready use everything that you could learn in this book. I suspect you'll just be nodding your head in agreement as you read it.
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          • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Believe me, you already used everything that you could learn in this book.
            Edited for correct tense. :-)

            Thank you, but I think you hold my talent and success in much too high regard. It's not that I didn't work my ass off. It was that I was willing to work my ass off longer, smarter and harder than the guy sitting next to me. lol
            Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      After reading the comments...which were all very interesting, I was wondering if most people stopped to remember one seemingly overlooked thing as they were hearing about Belfort's great telemarketing skills:

      It took thousands and thousands of calls...hangups, etc. to build his empire. They were preying on the weak and vulnerable and obviously they found them.

      When you read about his "super" skills it's easy to think they work on the majority of the people...they absolutely do not!

      So, just because someone reads about what worked for Belfort and his boiler rooms, remember it took years and many many many no's and hangups to get where he got. It only takes a small amount of all those calls to be suckers for his game, and then they played those suckers for every dime they could squeeze out.
      And of course you are correct! He preyed upon those who would listen.

      I didn't read his book. I have read the court documents, which were much more informative than the book. They tell us what he was really doing...how he was doing it...and to whom.

      Just the facts.

      You'll learn much more about Belfort's actual "sales techniques" from his victim's statements, than you will from this thread, his books or video's.

      Someone in this thread mentioned "exaggeration" as a way to describe what Belfort did. I'd invite that same person to show us where, in the charges that were filed concerning Belford's activities, the word "exaggeration" was mentioned or even appears.

      Ron
      https://www.longislandpress.com/2014...ims-speak-out/

      "The former Wall Street charlatan--partly fueled by an insatiable drug habit, he professes in the book; mostly fueled by greed and reckless criminality, counter prosecutors--tricked then bilked countless victims out of millions, according to court documents, interviews with attorneys on the case, short-changed investors and his own book. In other words, the shyster not only lied, cheated and robbed unsuspecting people, but destroyed their lives.

      Louis E. Dequine, Jr., a former Golden Gloves boxing champion, got burned by Stratton Oakmont, according to his Northport-based attorney Timothy Dennin, and suffered a stroke years later under extraordinary stress. Both he and his wife have since died.'
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  • Profile picture of the author Sergey123
    Jordan is a tough guy, he's not to blame for being a wolf among the sheep?
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    • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
      Originally Posted by Sergey123 View Post

      Jordan is a tough guy, he's not to blame for being a wolf among the sheep?
      What about leading lambs to slaughter? Just wondering, is all.
      Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Sergey123 View Post

      Jordan is a tough guy, he's not to blame for being a wolf among the sheep?
      I want to address that.

      Tough guys don't take advantage of others and destroy their lives.

      And you can be a tough guy, aggressive, ambitious, even greedy...without ruining other people's lives.

      And even if he's not to blame for being a wolf among sheep, the sheep have a right to exist...and they made the laws. And the laws are to discover the wolves and separate them from the sheep.

      The problem with being a wolf among sheep is that you eventually run out of sheep that aren't aware that you're a wolf. And sheep eventually fight back...that's what laws are for.
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      • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        And you can be a tough guy, aggressive, ambitious, even greedy...without ruining other people's lives.
        You can also be a raving narcissist. The secret to narcissism is learning how to make it a character trait that you harness and maximize to your benefit, rather than letting it run free and become a destructive force in your life and career.

        Unfortunately, most people recoil when they hear the word, narcissist, without understanding what the word means at anything more than a surface level, based on the most common stereotypes and misconceptions. Even the dictionary's one sentence description is laughable.

        Besides that, "You go to war with the army you have."

        Thank you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark68
    Great thread. I won't restate anything here except if you want to get his info and judge without paying go to audible.com they will give you your first audiobook free with a no charge 30 day membership.

    I did that and I am listening to the 7 hr audible version. His voice is annoying but its free, and yes I wonder how he didn't annoy customers over the phone.

    I have also reserved a copy of the printed book from my local library. Claude posted a link in the thread to a webpage for the Belfort book resources.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Mark68 View Post

      Great thread. I won't restate anything here except if you want to get his info and judge without paying go to audible.com they will give you your first audiobook free with a no charge 30 day membership.

      I did that and I am listening to the 7 hr audible version. His voice is annoying but its free, and yes I wonder how he didn't annoy customers over the phone.
      One of the best sales points I can think of for his sales methods is that his voice is annoying. One of the most annoying voices I've heard in a man

      But his voice inflection, use of language, and timing more than make up for it. The material is that good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Mention Belfort and you'll get controversy. I say take what you can and apply it ethically.

    Tonality is a real thing; I've been hired to teach it and that initially caused some head-scratching as it was mostly unconscious competence on my end.

    At TCE we use a callflow rather than a rigid script. But our salespeople are experienced so typically the problem is not what to say exactly, but to remind them to follow the consistent process steps.

    You can use knowledge for good or evil...it's up to you to make that choice. The same power that heats your house can zap you to death.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      Tonality is a real thing; I've been hired to teach it and that initially caused some head-scratching as it was mostly unconscious competence on my end.

      I can see that. In fact, until I watched the Straight Line Selling DVDs I had no idea such a thing existed. I was doing most of it, but it was unconscious.....

      If I was sincerely interested in what they were saying, the tonality just came out naturally.
      And I conditioned myself to be interested..in the moment.

      This kind of training reminds me of the first time I read How To Master The Art Of Selling by Tom Hopkins...way back in 1981.

      Sure, I had been doing some of what was in the book, but the fact that it was explained....so that I understood why it was working, and gave scripts to make my selling far more effecting.....

      I felt like I had discovered fire.

      I got a little of that feeling when I watched the Belfort DVDS.
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      • Profile picture of the author animal44
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Bragging about a lack of polish in speech
        Nobody's bragging. I'm saying it's not important. If it was important, Branson wouldn't be a billionaire...

        Joe Sugarman said that if you have the right list, you could scrawl your offer on the back of an old envelope and people would still buy. This is the equivalent.

        Belfart's talking about faking tonality and body language in order to persuade people to buy... He even says that in his course - "fake it until you make it". Soon as you "fake it", people will pick up on that and trust is lost. And trust is pretty much the most important thing in business... indeed in any relationship...

        Lose trust and you'll lose sales...

        Note what Claude says...
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        If I was sincerely interested in what they were saying, the tonality just came out naturally.
        That is the way you get your tonality and body language right, without even consciously thinking about it... or "faking it until you make it"...
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Nobody's bragging. I'm saying it's not important. If it was important, Branson wouldn't be a billionaire....
          Tonality isn't important to building a business. But it is important to establishing rapport in a one (or two) call sales system.

          Branson is a billionaire for thousands of reasons. Thousands of factors contribute to creating a massive personal wealth. I'm pretty sure Branson would be just as rich...if he were deaf, missing an arm, or stuttered. His determination, strength of character, business acumen, and sheer willpower would get him there.

          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Joe Sugarman said that if you have the right list, you could scrawl your offer on the back of an old envelope and people would still buy. This is the equivalent..
          That's right. With a good enough list you just need an offer that matches the list. Your sales letter doesn't even need to have correct grammar or spelling.
          But everything counts. A good copywriter can boost response to even the best list. Headlines can create a huge swing in response. The guarantee, appeal, testimonials...all of it effects response. I know you know this.

          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Belfart's talking about faking tonality and body language in order to persuade people to buy... He even says that in his course - "fake it until you make it". Soon as you "fake it", people will pick up on that and trust is lost. And trust is pretty much the most important thing in business... indeed in any relationship...

          And (Again, I assume you know this) It helps if there is a reason given for a "special offer". But the reason doesn't have to be real...or even make complete sense. And in selling stock over the phone, a prospect's greed (and other emotions) over ride much of their BS meter.

          You said in an earlier post that you would hang up on Belfort. So would I. But it's because we are aware of what's happening. We are insiders. We aren't your average customers.

          Lose trust and you'll lose sales....
          I wish Belfort wouldn't say "Fake it till you make it". It's not even accurate."Fake it till you make it" means acting successful until you are successful. You don't fake sincerity until you really are sincere. I always act interesting in the customer, an interested in what they are saying. But it's rare that I'm truly interested. I become interested "in the moment" as a matter of habit and training.


          Belfort teaches (among other things) tricks in voice modulation to simulate additional meanings.
          It isn't as complex as "faking sincerity". I doubt if his reps were smart enough to make that distinction. He taught them how to modulate their voices to trigger a perception. Sometimes with simply lowering your voice....slowing your rate of speech...or speeding up the rate of speech. It's simpler than "acting as if". and I suspect (but don't know) that this is more effective over the phone where the prospect has no view of the rep, the office, or what's happening before or after the call.

          My impression is that his training to his reps was how to say (in language and tone) maybe 25 short techniques....and a very short pitch. I doubt if these guys could really think on their feet to truly fake emotion or interest.

          I think I could teach 99% of Belfort's "Tonality" in an hour, and have most people use it effectively enough to benefit from it. But that's a far cry from learning how to completely fake emotion like a trained actor. Even though I suspect that Belfort really understands why his methodology really works. I suspect that most people he has trained just follow the examples...without any real understanding of what they are doing.


          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Note what Claude says...

          That is the way you get your tonality and body language right, without even consciously thinking about it... or "faking it until you make it"...
          Yup. Being sincere automatically gives you the best tone/cadence/image. But you can study what that tone is (or the important parts anyway) and imitate it even if you don't feel it.
          Sure, my wife can tell when I'm faking emotion...but customers can't.

          We all do it. Have you ever met someone you weren't interested in, but listened with a smile...asking all the right questions? It comes natural to many of us. And most of us can do it well enough to get by.

          And even if half the people can see past Belfort's fake tonality. The other half doesn't.
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          • Profile picture of the author animal44
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Sure, my wife can tell when I'm faking emotion...but customers can't.
            Are you sure. Most people feel something in their gut when body language doesn't match up with the words. This is why I have few sales friends. They always appear false to me.

            Not everyone acts on their gut instinct, but I'm certain they still feel it.

            You can't truly fake this. Ask any body language expert to teach you how to fake it and you'll find they can't. Because they don't know. Body language (and tonality for that matter) is far from an exact science.

            IMHO to get good enough for it to make any significant difference, you need to have a lot of practice. And why bother, when you can just sell stuff that you genuinely believe in...
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            We all do it. Have you ever met someone you weren't interested in, but listened with a smile...
            Me? No. I'm real good at letting people know where they stand...
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              Are you sure. Most people feel something in their gut when body language doesn't match up with the words. This is why I have few sales friends. They always appear false to me.

              Not everyone acts on their gut instinct, but I'm certain they still feel it.

              You can't truly fake this. Ask any body language expert to teach you how to fake it and you'll find they can't. Because they don't know. Body language (and tonality for that matter) is far from an exact science.
              Earlier in my sales career I noticed that women could read my subtle facial signals better than men. Women are simply better at reading emotions than men are. .

              Much later, I found that I could actually feel these emotions of interest, sincerity, concern,...in the moment. Actors do it. most people can't do that. And you mentioned that body language experts don't really know how to fake emotion. I agree. And Belfort can't perfectly fake it as well. But most people. I've found, respond to certain triggers, even though the emotion isn't truly faked. In fact, Belfort's Tonality material gives the triggers that simulate emotional involvement. And that's what people pick up.

              I have to agree though that in person, it's harder to pull off. But over the phone, it's a simpler matter of imitating tonality. And I think that Belfort's reps would have had a much more difficult time with in person sales.

              Sometimes, I'm not in the mood. Sometimes I just don't like the people I'm talking to......and in those instances, I have to fake my rapport with them. It may not be perfect, but it's better than no rapport at all. And most people are oblivious. I can tell by their reactions.


              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

              IMHO to get good enough for it to make any significant difference, you need to have a lot of practice. And why bother, when you can just sell stuff that you genuinely believe in...
              I want to address that.

              Yes, in many instances (maybe most) that's all you need to do to create the best tonality.
              But some salespeople are incapable of projecting this tonality naturally. And it's impossible to do in print, without copywriting skills....to be able to best describe your offer...to convey that belief you have. To imply scarcity...imply a huge demand for your offer.

              Business owners who believe in their offers hire copywriters who are less impressed by the offer...to write the sales letters. Why? Because there is a construction...a reading pathway in the letter...a structure to a great appeal. And belief isn't enough.

              And in selling, belief isn't enough. Although for many, belief in the product will create the proper tonality. But not for all. Belief isn't enough, by itself, to make sales. I'm talking about sales to people who are not proven rabid buyers. Maybe you and I are talking about two different audiences.

              It's not a matter of tonality working or not working. It's that it helps. And knowing how to create the rapport...when you aren't really feeling it...increases sales.

              Selling stuff you believe in doesn't mean you can ignore sales skills. And in print, you can't ignore copywriting skills, can you?
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

          Nobody's bragging. I'm saying it's not important.
          We'll let's see:

          Red Corner:
          Crassus
          -fielded Roman armies with his private wealth.
          -led Roman armies when he wasn't making money
          -Did not consider you wealthy unless you could field an army.
          -Thought oratory skills were important.
          -He was part of the first triumvirate.
          -his death contributed to a civil war in Rome as Pompey and Caesar struggled to fill the power vacuum.
          -He was one of the wealthiest man in history. During his era, he was certainly the first amongst peers.
          -We still talk about him 2 millenias after his death

          Blue corner:
          Richard Branson
          -Would not have been considered wealthy by Crassus by virtue of not have enough money to field an army
          -I think he is helping children in Africa? Or give to charity? I don't check tabloids so I don't know. You'd have to fill me in on the details.
          -Sent a man in space 50 odd years after the Soviet Union.
          -If he dies, ? happens
          -Do not think that oratory skills are important.
          -We talk about him a lot while he is living especially on internet marketing forums.

          Joe Sugarman
          - Good copywriter I think?
          -Presumably does not think oratory skills are important?
          -If he dies, ? happens

          I mean thanks for sharing your opinion but... there's an imbalance in terms of achievements that's a bit hard to gloss over.
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          • Profile picture of the author animal44
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            Crassus
            Don't ever recollect this name in my high school history - though I did sleep/daydream through most of it...
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            -We still talk about him 2 millenias after his death
            We don't... You do...

            One name that did come up in high school history and many times afterwards - He even featured in Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, so he was obviously "someone" - is Socrates. He was supposedly a great orator. He lived as a virtual slave most of his life and was executed for his beliefs. His oratory skills didn't help him much...

            As Claude said, Branson has made it despite his shyness and stuttering. As have many of the modern billionaires...
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by animal44 View Post


              As Claude said, Branson has made it despite his shyness and stuttering. As have many of the modern billionaires...
              This "Who makes more money?" back and forth between you and Socialentry is nonsensical.

              Tonality is really important in such a small set of circumstances. Selling over the phone is about it....and to a lesser degree, selling in person.

              And Tonality isn't the elephant in the room. It's just a way to mimic rapport with the person on the phone

              To be honest, I only brought up Belfort's book and his subject of tonality because it was new material to some. At least it wasn't something I've seen before, even in books on body language.

              But how important is it in selling? If you aren't doing everything else well? Not important at all. And If I were back in the field, it may have made a 5% difference in sales.

              What Belfort gave his minions was a simple script to strictly adhere to, and a way to handle objections. And tonality allowed them a semblance of rapport with the prospect.

              But mostly? it was his demand to stick to the damn script.
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              • Profile picture of the author OptedIn
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                But how important is it in selling? If you aren't doing everything else well? Not important at all. And If I were back in the field, it may have made a 5% difference in sales.
                Based on your waistline, allow me to put this terms that will hit home for you. Developing your own successful telemarketing persona, while starting from a basic recipe that has the fundamental ingredients of any successful regimen, each of us brings our own additional dashes of seasoning to the overall recipe - and yes, tonality is certainly one of them'

                But mostly? it was his demand to stick to the damn script.
                Precisely. In my room, this came above all else, regardless of your success when deviating from the provided material. This was due to the fact that while someone can deviate from the script and increase their sales (which can have ethical issues depending on what they are saying), they are setting a bad example for the rest of the room, can encourage others to adopt the deviation from the script and ultimately creating chaos in the operation.

                I made all of my callers a promise that I would coach them for as long as was needed, that I would teach them every single thing I knew in an effort to help them become one of the best associates in the room, as long as they didn't deviate from the script by so much as a single word, regardless of any temptation brought about by what they observed in others. I also told them that once they did deviate from the script, they were dead to me.

                Those that couldn't stick to the script never lasted long, once they began to stray. Not because I was a hard-ass and got rid of them, but because they started to overthink what they were doing and told themselves that if a little deviation from the script was good, then a bit more would be even better. That never worked out. They became too smart for their own good and ultimately failed on their own, by creating an incoherent jumble of a presentation. I let them death spiral as an example to the others in my room.

                There's a very good reason why we made you stick to the script. That was because anyone with a modicum of intelligence and drive, regardless of tonality or anything else, would be successful if they did so. What more could a telemarketer ask for? lol

                Thank you.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by OptedIn View Post

                  There's a very good reason why we made you stick to the script. That was because anyone with a modicum of intelligence and drive, regardless of tonality or anything else, would be successful if they did so. What more could a telemarketer ask for? lol

                  Thank you.
                  I think every sales manager has had this experience....

                  The new guy...with little product training and almost no sales training...outsells everyone else in the office. For me, it happened all the time.

                  Why?

                  Three reasons that come to mind...
                  1) Unbridled belief in what they were selling..You can call it enthusiasm, I suppose. But this belief transferred to the customers.

                  2) Work ethic. When you are new in sales, you have a tendency to think of it as you would any other job...do your work, and work 8 hours a day. Laziness comes after you see the others in the office goofing off...and then one of these losers takes you aside and tells you "How this business really works"...And a new jaded time waster is created.

                  3) They do what they are told by their manager. They don't have any choice, they have no idea what else to do. So they stick to the script (if it's that type of selling), and don't try to cut corners.

                  The problem with salespeople that don't have a decade of experience behind them...they don't know the difference between a stylistic change and a sales killing mistake.
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              • Profile picture of the author animal44
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                This "Who makes more money?" back and forth between you and Socialentry is nonsensical.
                Not sure what you read, but that's not what I wrote...

                Point of order - and I woke in the middle of the night remembering this - the richest man in history was actually Mansa Musa of Mali. According to this wikipeadia entry worh 400 billion in todays money vs Crassius at 200 million to 20 billion...


                I guess I must have been born with super powers as I'm able to sell without using all this Tonality and body language BS... I even do it in inappropriate dress. I also seem to be able to pass on those super powers to my proteges, none of whom have been corrupted by this sale industry propaganda...

                I subscribe to the Woody Allen school - "90% of success is turning up". Stop wasting your life stressing over trivialities and just do it. I've had great success without "learning to sell". And I do it simply by getting out there and having a conversation - a real genuine conversation...
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                • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  I guess I must have been born with super powers as I'm able to sell without using all this Tonality and body language BS... I even do it in inappropriate dress. I also seem to be able to pass on those super powers to my proteges, none of whom have been corrupted by this sale industry propaganda...

                  I subscribe to the Woody Allen school - "90% of success is turning up". Stop wasting your life stressing over trivialities and just do it. I've had great success without "learning to sell". And I do it simply by getting out there and having a conversation - a real genuine conversation...
                  And, having a conversation, in and of itself, isn't selling. Though, it probably looks that way to someone without much sales experience.

                  It may start there, but it's not that simple. Which is why everybody can't "just do it", and be successful. It takes some know how, skill, experience, courage, patience, persistence and a thousand other things, to develop the ability.

                  Selling is as much about Listening, as it is speaking. Even the way you breath communicates something to the other party.

                  The fact that we are still having these types of discussions, after all of the threads regarding sales and how to sell indicates the complex nature of the subject.

                  Ron
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                  • Profile picture of the author animal44
                    Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                    And, having a conversation, in and of itself, isn't selling.
                    Quite correct. People don't like to be sold to, however, they do like to buy...

                    And Claude agrees with me... even though he probably doesn't realise it...

                    A couple of months back Claude posted a story about how he was selling to people and he realised they weren't going to buy. So he stopped selling and had a (real) conversation with them. And....

                    Closed the sale!

                    Funny that, eh?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                      Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                      Quite correct. People don't like to be sold to, however, they do like to buy...

                      And Claude agrees with me... even though he probably doesn't realise it...

                      A couple of months back Claude posted a story about how he was selling to people and he realised they weren't going to buy. So he stopped selling and had a (real) conversation with them. And....

                      Closed the sale!

                      Funny that, eh?
                      The idea of selling as something you "do" to someone is a lay persons understanding of sales.

                      It shows a complete misunderstanding of the sales process.

                      To an untrained novice, the sales process sounds just like a conversation, during which, someone decided to buy something.

                      But, a real sales professional always knows the difference.
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                      • Profile picture of the author animal44
                        Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                        To an untrained novice, the sales process sounds just like a conversation, during which, someone decided to buy something.
                        So Claude stopped having a conversation to have a conversation...

                        No wonder you're so poor...
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                        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                          Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                          The idea of selling as something you "do" to someone is a lay persons understanding of sales.

                          It shows a complete misunderstanding of the sales process.

                          To an untrained novice, the sales process sounds just like a conversation, during which, someone decided to buy something.

                          But, a real sales professional always knows the difference.


                          Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                          So Claude stopped having a conversation to have a conversation...

                          No wonder you're so poor...
                          Gentlemen....

                          Any conversation with an agenda is a sales presentation.

                          Ron is right, A great sales presentation (especially in consulting) sounds like a real conversation. But that's because it is. Even when you are genuinely trying to help the person....it's a sales presentation...if you are hoping for a certain outcome. Even recommending a movie to a friend is a sales presentation.

                          I always thought of selling as "Clear communication". To me , that's the core essence of selling. Sales techniques are simply triggers that steer a conversation away from minutia, and back to the subject of the conversation.

                          And Animal is right in that really high level selling (which he does) is really a conversation. What he doesn't state is that his conversation is the result of years of practice...and his conversation has a purpose, which makes it a sales presentation.

                          And maybe we are distracted by the word "presentation". A one way information dump is a form of presentation. But I'm using the word to describe any directed conversation with a purpose.

                          About "techniques". Any eloquent speaker is using technique. A good grasp of language is a tool in persuasion. Techniques are just a way to artificially create a great conversation with a purpose. Just like "Pick up artists" use techniques to create an interesting personality and interesting conversation. While other men are simply better at it unconsciously. But whether you do it unconsciously...or consciously....using specific language is a technique.

                          In my experience, when talking to a CEO, it's more a conversation than a scripted sales presentation. But we both have an agenda. We aren't "shooting the breeze". There is a reason we are talking. Our conversation has a purpose, or we are wasting each other's time.

                          And great sales presentations aren't just you talking at your prospect. Great sales presentations are interactive....directed conversations.

                          You two are arguing points that, at their core, are almost the same thing.

                          As far as my saying that I stopped selling, and just had a conversation...I don't remember that specific post (lots of posts, fleeting memory), but what I probably meant was that I told the customer that I stopped selling, as a way to lower resistance. It's also possible that I really did stop selling, and another opportunity/need/reason to buy just popped up on its own.

                          But I must say that for the past ten years or so, my sales presentations really just sound like conversations. And on the surface, they are. But there is always a direction, a purpose to the conversation. Whether it's noticeable to the customer or not.

                          After 40,000 sales presentations, the "technique" is almost all unconscious. I'm not even aware of it. But the direction is always there.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post


                  I guess I must have been born with super powers as I'm able to sell without using all this Tonality and body language BS... .
                  As I've said before...if I used tonality (as taught by Belfort) in my earlier years...my sales may have gone up by 5%. It isn't the most important part of selling.

                  I strongly suspect you are doing most of it anyway. Most interesting conversationalists do it already.

                  As far as body language...most of what I read is nonsense. We all have personal micro-movements that are habits that can be easily read incorrectly. Only the most obvious ones (like crossing your arms and frowning) are easily interpreted.

                  And I've read quite a lot about NLP...bought a few sales NLP programs....and Belfort talks about it in his book. Most of it is nonsense, in my experience.



                  Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                  It may start there, but it's not that simple. Which is why everybody can't "just do it", and be successful. It takes some know how, skill, experience, courage, patience, persistence and a thousand other things, to develop the ability.

                  Ron
                  Ron; I'm glad you brought that up.

                  I've trained hundreds of sales people. And when they start out, they have varying degrees of "natural talent". Some are more expressive, some are simply better listeners. Some naturally know how to explain things clearly...and some don't.

                  I've met one person in my life (that I recruited) that had no sales experience but took to it naturally. In other words, he needed no real sales training at all.

                  But maybe another 10-20% needed very little training. Some people are just likable, agreeable, and are skilled conversationalists. And what Belfort teaches about tonality...my guess is that most successful salespeople (in any industry) are doing most of that already. Probably without specific training.

                  My guess is that Belfort recruited mostly guys that had little conversational aptitude...so he had to teach them how to simulate being an interesting...and interested...conversationalist.

                  And again, the reason I thought this book was important is that this particular area of sales skills hadn't been address before (to my knowledge)

                  By the way, the biggest hurtle I had in recruiting and training salespeople was that they had a cultural conditioning that selling something was somehow...wrong.....somehow it was less than ethical. It was a big hurtle to overcome.
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                • Profile picture of the author eccj
                  Originally Posted by animal44 View Post

                  I subscribe to the Woody Allen school - "90% of success is turning up". Stop wasting your life stressing over trivialities and just do it. I've had great success without "learning to sell". And I do it simply by getting out there and having a conversation - a real genuine conversation...
                  What's the other 10%?
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                  • Profile picture of the author animal44
                    Originally Posted by eccj View Post

                    What's the other 10%?
                    Ask Woody Allen...
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                    People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
                    What I do for a living

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  • Profile picture of the author GrowthMonger
    Yes, it is a great book indeed, thanks for sharing!
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  • Profile picture of the author bobmcalister
    his close is the most effective close I have ever used...would love to have been trained by him.
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  • Profile picture of the author jlwilliams
    I just got the book and wil read it as soon as I'm done with what I'm reading now. I've seen some of his videos and he does have a knack for teaching valuable information.

    A couple words on his ethics and his past. He is a recovering addict. Short version of the long story, I've known a great many addicts. Some were people close to me who I couldn't just walk away from. There comes a time, after decades of being clean, when I let go of who they were and what they did. Anybody who used hard drugs and claims they didn't do dishonest, unethical things isn't being truthful. It's part of the big package. So, I'm sure that Belfort on 'ludes and coke did a ton of unsavory things. A decade or two later, I'm willing to let that go. He has learned from who he was and what he did. Now he's selling the useful pieces of his experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by jlwilliams View Post

      I just got the book and wil read it as soon as I'm done with what I'm reading now. I've seen some of his videos and he does have a knack for teaching valuable information.

      A couple words on his ethics and his past. He is a recovering addict. Short version of the long story, I've known a great many addicts. Some were people close to me who I couldn't just walk away from. There comes a time, after decades of being clean, when I let go of who they were and what they did. Anybody who used hard drugs and claims they didn't do dishonest, unethical things isn't being truthful. It's part of the big package. So, I'm sure that Belfort on 'ludes and coke did a ton of unsavory things. A decade or two later, I'm willing to let that go. He has learned from who he was and what he did. Now he's selling the useful pieces of his experience.
      His checkered past has nothing to do with his drug addiction. It has everything to do with the fact that he sold overpriced stocks that were near worthless, and robbed thousands of families of their investment. The very personification of a con man.

      He learned his lesson after he was caught and put in prison. His sales methods are certainly valid and incredibly effective. But as a man?

      I've read this book and seen most everything Belfort put out. His training is outstanding. But that never makes me forget who he is....or what he did.
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