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Since this is the place for offline...

by ewenmack
48 replies
Here's a quote I stumbled upon
from Dan Kennedy...

"The last place of marketing liberty is inside an envelope. No spam filter in the mail. No review process. No one is going to check what you're saying. No one will throttle your campaign. You can run any ad you like. Good luck with that in other media. No one will outbid you on the price of a stamp."
#offline #place
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

    Here's a quote I stumbled upon
    from Dan Kennedy...

    "The last place of marketing liberty is inside an envelope. No spam filter in the mail. No review process. No one is going to check what you're saying. No one will throttle your campaign. You can run any ad you like. Good luck with that in other media. No one will outbid you on the price of a stamp."
    Kennedy is a crotchety old man (about my age). But every time I hear him speak, even if it's a pitch, the deep insights just flow out of his mouth. And eventually a few of them seep into my little brain.

    I've listened to hundreds of hours of him live and on CDs. There was never a minute where I felt he was wasting my time.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Having done direct mail...I say Google Ads and Facebook right now would win over direct mail...less money, higher return on investment, quicker testing, and time considerations. And of the two, I'd go with Google Ads today.

    Direct mail only works when you have a tested piece that has been shown to convert...and targeted to an audience that you've paid to get access to (cheaper and quicker with the sources I mentioned).

    What a lot of marketers fail to realize, is that with direct mail, your piece has to be tested...this can take weeks and months...then the winner is rolled out to a mass audience that you have bought access to. All this can be done in days with online sources.

    Also, online, you can change your campaign in minutes.

    Now, if you're a local business, and you're targeting your local area...yes, direct mail can be a winner.

    Consider the cost of mailing 10 million letters compared to what an online campaign would cost. Google ads you can pay for the clicks...direct mail you paid whether they open the envelope or not.

    I appreciate your post, but I'm just not following his line of thinking. Maybe I'm overlooking something...
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Having done direct mail...I say Google Ads and Facebook right now would win over direct mail...less money, higher return on investment, quicker testing, and time considerations. And of the two, I'd go with Google Ads today.

      Direct mail only works when you have a tested piece that has been shown to convert...and targeted to an audience that you've paid to get access to (cheaper and quicker with the sources I mentioned).

      What a lot of marketers fail to realize, is that with direct mail, your piece has to be tested...this can take weeks and months...then the winner is rolled out to a mass audience that you have bought access to. All this can be done in days with online sources.

      Also, online, you can change your campaign in minutes.

      Now, if you're a local business, and you're targeting your local area...yes, direct mail can be a winner.

      Consider the cost of mailing 10 million letters compared to what an online campaign would cost. Google ads you can pay for the clicks...direct mail you paid whether they open the envelope or not.

      I appreciate your post, but I'm just not following his line of thinking. Maybe I'm overlooking something...
      Yup, yup, and yup.

      The only caveat to what you are saying is that for the last year a huge amount of people are locked at home bored stiff, with ever-expanding needs.

      My dad taught me at a very young age. "never sell your tools (even if you retire), because you never know what life is going to throw at you."

      So I have been testing a few postcards and the numbers say that people ARE very much looking at their physical mail.

      Enough so that I'm thinking of building another national brand off of mostly DM.
      ...at least for the first few quarters.
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Yup, yup, and yup.

        The only caveat to what you are saying is that for the last year a huge amount of people are locked at home bored stiff, with ever-expanding needs.

        My dad taught me at a very young age. "never sell your tools (even if you retire), because you never know what life is going to throw at you."

        So I have been testing a few postcards and the numbers say that people ARE very much looking at their physical mail.

        Enough so that I'm thinking of building another national brand off of mostly DM.
        ...at least for the first few quarters.
        Thanks for your feedback.

        I would say with postcards it depends on who you're trying to reach.

        Younger people are not going to respond as well as they would with online marketing.

        Older people would respond...

        Also would depend on the product. And I know that sounds like a cop-out...but I'm saying there are local products that could benefit from local direct mail...although, I would also say that would depend on the age group you're targeting.

        Direct mail has its place, but I would also suggest you try Google Ads.

        Last I checked EDDM was around .18 and then you have the cost of the printing...which depending on the size of the postcard varies. If you were sending out say 20,000 cards, I'd guess you are going to spend about $3000. Compare that to Google Ads and I'd say you would get a ton more exposure from Google Ads (just estimates off the top of my head).

        Personally, and this is just my opinion, and having spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising...from direct mail to online sources...I would hope you consider all the options and consider the "best bang for your buck".

        Having read most of your posts, I'm sure you'll do good at whatever you do.

        As I said, these are just my opinions. I always welcome someone telling me why I'm wrong and offering better ideas. I listen to any advice anyone gives
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


          Last I checked EDDM was around .18 and then you have the cost of the printing...which depending on the size of the postcard varies. If you were sending out say 20,000 cards, I'd guess you are going to spend about $3000. Compare that to Google Ads and I'd say you would get a ton more exposure from Google Ads (just estimates off the top of my head).

          Personally, and this is just my opinion, and having spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising...from direct mail to online sources...I would hope you consider all the options and consider the "best bang for your buck".
          EDDM (and mass direct mails to non-customers) are the exceptions, to me. You can waste a whole boatload of money mailing to mass audiences.

          But your customers? Joint venture customers? My experience is that the only thing more effective than a proven direct mail piece, is a phone call from a real salesperson.

          To me, it's not an either-or thing. Online offers contribute to offline sales just like offline offers contribute to online sales.

          Just like infomercials used to stimulate in store sales.
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          "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            EDDM (and mass direct mails to non-customers) are the exceptions, to me. You can waste a whole boatload of money mailing to mass audiences.

            But your customers? Joint venture customers? My experience is that the only thing more effective than a proven direct mail piece, is a phone call from a real salesperson.

            To me, it's not an either-or thing. Online offers contribute to offline sales just like offline offers contribute to online sales.

            Just like infomercials used to stimulate in store sales.
            I might not be understanding your post...

            you say "the only thing more effective than a proven direct mail piece, is a phone call from a real salesperson"...

            do you really mean that when it comes to advertising?
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              I might not be understanding your post...

              you say "the only thing more effective than a proven direct mail piece, is a phone call from a real salesperson"...

              do you really mean that when it comes to advertising?
              Just before that, I said "But your customers? Joint venture customers?" So I'm talking about highly qualified lists of people who would take your call.

              I would use the telephone to contact my own customers, or people who have previously bought what I have sold. Especially if it's a short list, and a highly profitable offer. But to the masses? Probably not.

              Direct mail? I would use for lists of highly qualified prospects, maybe the phone as well.

              What I would not do is do direct mail to a large audience that isn't qualified at all, if other means were available to me. Like PPC ads.

              One way that I've see work well is repeated direct mail pieces, (to get the easy sales) followed by a phone call (as a last effort). .

              These are not absolutes, of course. It depends on what you sell, and to whom...and the profit per sale.

              Of course, if you are offering a product with a low profit to a national audience, PPC ads and social media ads are cheap.
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              "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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          • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            EDDM (and mass direct mails to non-customers) are the exceptions, to me. You can waste a whole boatload of money mailing to mass audiences.
            Just another voice here.

            I'm revising an old business, as part of a new venture (in testing mode) for Zip Zone EDDM co-op postcards. The old business: Independent Marketing Appraiser. I borrowed it from my days in Real Estate.

            Olden times, when there were Newspapers, Radio, TV, Val-Pak, Community Mailers, Specialty Publications, etc., etc...small businesses were bombarded with ADVERTISING salespeople, all of them pitching EYEBALLS, or LISTENERS or readers, viewers, audiences and such.

            A true SHOTGUN marketing approach normally reserved for big budget businesses, or those with coop ad programs, like big insurance.

            Anyhoo...what I found out way back then was, most ad spends for many momma and poppa biz were wastes of time and money.

            I see I'm beginning to wander...

            Smaller mailings, 2500 to 5000 are affordable, and AREA targeted, so a business on a co-op postcard can somewhat target all the age groups, because it is delivered to everyone. So it is on the biz to create or have created a promotion which is going to appeal to THEIR audience. So a pizza shop with a Football Party Special can appeal to young guys and an insurance agent can appeal to his grandfather who is thinking of retirement and future.

            But, as Ewen has shown us previously, if you get your hands on a good list, say of people coming back from vacation, then an envelope with an offer for a new bed could be very lucrative and very cost effective, so I might argue the envelope can and will beat Google, Facebook, et al, IFFIN it is sent to the right person at the right time.

            Is this the Warrior Forum, sometimes I forget where I'm at. So, there.

            GordonJ
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            • Profile picture of the author max5ty
              Originally Posted by GordonJ View Post

              Just another voice here.

              I'm revising an old business, as part of a new venture (in testing mode) for Zip Zone EDDM co-op postcards. The old business: Independent Marketing Appraiser. I borrowed it from my days in Real Estate.

              Olden times, when there were Newspapers, Radio, TV, Val-Pak, Community Mailers, Specialty Publications, etc., etc...small businesses were bombarded with ADVERTISING salespeople, all of them pitching EYEBALLS, or LISTENERS or readers, viewers, audiences and such.

              A true SHOTGUN marketing approach normally reserved for big budget businesses, or those with coop ad programs, like big insurance.

              Anyhoo...what I found out way back then was, most ad spends for many momma and poppa biz were wastes of time and money.

              I see I'm beginning to wander...

              Smaller mailings, 2500 to 5000 are affordable, and AREA targeted, so a business on a co-op postcard can somewhat target all the age groups, because it is delivered to everyone. So it is on the biz to create or have created a promotion which is going to appeal to THEIR audience. So a pizza shop with a Football Party Special can appeal to young guys and an insurance agent can appeal to his grandfather who is thinking of retirement and future.

              But, as Ewen has shown us previously, if you get your hands on a good list, say of people coming back from vacation, then an envelope with an offer for a new bed could be very lucrative and very cost effective, so I might argue the envelope can and will beat Google, Facebook, et al, IFFIN it is sent to the right person at the right time.

              Is this the Warrior Forum, sometimes I forget where I'm at. So, there.

              GordonJ
              Wny?

              Your plan is a waste of time and money.

              Because you think something might work doesn't mean it will.

              We have online marketing now...make use of it. Why would you try and pretend it isn't useful?

              Do you have any data that shows your idea will work?
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              • Profile picture of the author GordonJ
                Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                Wny?

                Your plan is a waste of time and money.

                Because you think something might work doesn't mean it will.

                We have online marketing now...make use of it. Why would you try and pretend it isn't useful?

                Do you have any data that shows your idea will work?
                Well, sure, 13 million dollars spent in testing ads has taught you something. Most of us small potato types, the one man band guys, don't get to spend other people's money (if applicable) to test Google, Facebook, and online marketing.

                I'm under no illusion that online marketing is the right thing for many...albeit, not all.

                I do know it is useful, under no pretense it isn't.

                But at lesser levels, those who don't fly their own jets, nor desire the mansions, cars and etc., simply want to make enough money to do what we want without a lot of slop and mess choose other routes.

                Data? Not sure what you mean. 10 mailed and delivered Co-Op postcards in six weeks almost all by referral tells us there is demand for our product, and although it surely won't afford me that Maserati, it will keep me in lottery tickets, so hope stays alive.

                See, if this were the ROBB REPORT forum, then maybe we would be more grateful, it is hard to appreciate the results of those with 13 MILLION dollars to spend, but we do appreciate you dropping a few crumbs here at the WF.

                GordonJ
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
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    • Profile picture of the author tonyna
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      So maybe I'm being too mean...

      I apologize.

      We spent 13 million dollars last year on ads and I discovered a thing or two.

      I sometimes forget that not everyone is on the same level as I am. That's fine.

      If there's anything I can help you with let me know
      Max5ty,

      I am your secret admirer for as long as I can remember.

      I look forward to your comments on everything related to marketing.

      I tried calling a phone number you put up at a time (419-296-2354) but it wasn't reachable.

      You are my marketing mentor and I would love a way to reach you either via email or phone number.

      Thank you Sir.
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  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    One of the reasons why consulting clients
    came to me when I did consulting to solve sales and marketing problems,
    was that I was media agnostic.

    Clients didn't want to feel pressured into one media.

    A friend who was a Adwords and Facebook ad expert had a client go to him to run ads to flush out investors with a minimum
    $10 million to invest.

    Clearly he knew that there was no clear targeting options on Facebook or Adwords for them.

    He came to me because I knew about audience selection.

    I knew there was a SIC code for the ultra wealthy who have there own inhouse investment firm and there was a mailing list for those.

    To prove a point I showed him the name and contact details of the family who own the most valuable private company in the US., the Koch family.

    Another audience selection category in the b2b space where companies are displaying signs online they are close to buying.

    For example the UK's largest homebuilder was researching solar panels.

    Now if you were in the solar panel business you would want to know that home builder was proactively looking for a supplier.

    If you were to ask me what companies are looking to buy solar panels now, I'd come up with at least three in under 5 minutes.

    In this case you haven't advertised to flush out leads, market intel has done it.

    As you can see there is no one media that is right,
    it's asking the right questions of where are the audience and knowing
    all the options that are available to best reach them.

    Best,
    Ewen
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post


      Clearly he knew that there was no clear targeting options on Facebook or Adwords for them.


      Ewen
      That's BS and we all know it.

      Could you elaborate more?
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


        Could you elaborate more?
        Happy to.

        I'm not the Facebook or Adwords advertising expert.

        Peter Lessard is.

        I'm just repeating back what he told me
        about the lack of targeting options to reach that specific group of investors.

        Not to say once he had the contact details of them
        that he may find a id match to them online and advertise to them from there.

        Best,
        Ewen

        P.S. Not to say those ad platforms haven't changed since he told me.

        I think we all would learn if you took a screenshot or did a Loom video
        showing us that specific targeting option within those ad platforms.
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        • Profile picture of the author max5ty
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          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
            Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

            He isn't shyt...

            quit believing everything you read.

            I guarantee you Ewen, I've not only spent more but made more than any of these so called experts.

            I'm not even selling anything. All I'm saying is listen to what I say and decide for yourself.

            I've been there. I'm not selling courses.

            Thanks for bringing this up
            It seems like you are wanting to attack people and not have a discussion about anything else.

            Best,
            Ewen
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            • Profile picture of the author max5ty
              Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

              It seems like you are wanting to attack people and not have a discussion about anything else.

              Best,
              Ewen
              No Ewen...it's not that.

              Have you spent over a million dollars in one single month on ads?

              I'm trying to tell you that there is a lot of people that want to tell you how it should be done...but they haven't put up the money to test it.

              I have absolutely no reason to tell you anything that isn't true because I have never ever or will I ever sell anything on this forum. When I post something it's because it's what I know to be true.

              I've been there...I've spent the money...I've written many of the blog posts that are out there...I've done the Facebook ads for most of the big names...

              I'm not asking anyone to believe me. All I'm saying is to look at the facts and statistics and decide
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              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                No Ewen...it's not that.

                Have you spent over a million dollars in one single month on ads?

                I'm trying to tell you that there is a lot of people that want to tell you how it should be done...but they haven't put up the money to test it.

                I have absolutely no reason to tell you anything that isn't true because I have never ever or will I ever sell anything on this forum. When I post something it's because it's what I know to be true.

                I've been there...I've spent the money...I've written many of the blog posts that are out there...I've done the Facebook ads for most of the big names...

                I'm not asking anyone to believe me. All I'm saying is to look at the facts and statistics and decide
                I still haven't seen your evidence that we can select an audience
                on either Facebook or Google ad platforms
                that match investors who have invested at a minimum of $10 m.

                Best,
                Ewen
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                  on either Facebook or Google ad platforms
                  that match investors who have invested at a minimum of $10 m.

                  Best,
                  Ewen
                  Facebook... White Male over 40 CEO and 2 or more cars would put you in the ballpark real fast.

                  Then you could get real cute and use something like ( https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national...-united-states ) and target based on the zip code of the above group.

                  Wont give you a target audience of those that HAVE "invested" but would be a hell of a start to those that COULD invest. And again are you shooting for 6 digits or 9?
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                  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    Facebook... White Male over 40 CEO and 2 or more cars would put you in the ballpark real fast.
                    It seems like we can't select an audience in the Facebook
                    or Google ad platform who have invested
                    $10m or more then?

                    If we can, can we select what type of investments they are?

                    Best,
                    Ewen
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                    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                      It seems like we can't select an audience in the Facebook
                      or Google ad platform who have invested
                      $10m or more then?

                      If we can, can we select what type of investments they are?

                      Best,
                      Ewen
                      ok so lets REALLY break this down.. anyone in those 50 zip codes that are over 40, a CEO and have 2 cars will have an amount of money. I would say that anyone worth north of $400,000 will have invested... maybe not in X specifically, but invested none the less.

                      So you are now thinking but Savidge4, I said invested more than $10,000,000, not $400,000 and knowing demographics the way i do, the variable of 2 cars or more is what creates that separation, or a better term helps separate the cream from the milk. The variable CEO is also working in our favor with this. Individuals in the lower spectrum of wealth would be more inclined to list themselves as " Entrepreneurs " than CEO, and there would be less investable income.

                      This is not really about "If we can", but decreasing the target from an ocean of possible to a lake. I get you are thinking that YOUR method would reduce the number to a POND.. and further reduce the number to a sink full of water. Someone that has invested 10,000,000 in X specifically. But the old school / new school question is are you looking for ONE client that meets your ideal customer, or are you looking for 10? are you looking for a 6 digit payout or 9 digit payout?

                      The difference is YOU are looking for a very specific low laying red mcintosh apple on the tree, and I would be looking for red apples.

                      Yes Ewen.. your list will give you a small set of names and numbers to contact specifically who you are looking for... and as I said above in my longer post if the goal is met by doing so.. then by all means. BUT the moment the goal is a little broader in scope.. I dont want ONE client I want 5 or 6 or 30 You have to expand the Short list that YOU would be working from.

                      My personal methodology will never focus on a one of anything, not enough eggs in the basket so to speak. I dont want A client ( been there done that ) I want plural client(S). The effort to find 10 is not so much greater than the effort to find 1. And looking at the macro end of this the micro focus I want this persona that has this and this and has done this and this is SO NARROW, you are by default leaving money on the table.. and when we are talking $10,000,000 investments that sounds like a lot of money.

                      Are you going to buy a list for $200 and hopefully get ONE client, or are you going to spend $10,000 in ad spend to get 10+.

                      Ewen, im in no way arguing the point that your method works... I KNOW it does, I employ it... BUT that doesn't make it the only way. Read your own words 7 posts up. Im discussing... Im sharing my methodologies and how this might be accomplished.

                      If in the end both methods work.. does it really matter? My ultimate sales preference is to meet face to face, after that I want to sell / onboard through an online funnel, and my last choice is a phone call. That's me, that's how I work best... more power to me for knowing my strengths and my weakness'. Basically making a barely warm call on a $10,000,000 investment - im just not exuding confidence on the idea. Bringing them in across a funnel and they are reaching out to me - now thats a whole other ball game - just saying.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post



                        This is not really about "If we can", but decreasing the target from an ocean of possible to a lake. I get you are thinking that YOUR method would reduce the number to a POND.. and further reduce the number to a sink full of water. Someone that has invested 10,000,000 in X specifically. But the old school / new school question is are you looking for ONE client that meets your ideal customer, or are you looking for 10? are you looking for a 6 digit payout or 9 digit payout?
                        How do you base that without seeing the size of the list?

                        Or am I wrong in that you have seen a list of investors that have invested $10m or more and the selects as to what investment types they invest in?

                        Have you seen the select option of how much liquidity they have?

                        Best,
                        Ewen
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                        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                          How do you base that without seeing the size of the list?

                          Or am I wrong in that you have seen a list of investors that have invested $10m or more and the selects as to what investment types they invest in?

                          Have you seen the select option of how much liquidity they have?

                          Best,
                          Ewen
                          Have I had my hands on such a list? ( spent $10,000,000 or more? the how aspect, meaning what exactly they have invested in no ) Invested $10 Million as a matter of fact yes. Actual "liquidity" is not so much a variable at this level, if the investment, or spend has legs or is deemed worth the investment, the funding can be made available - its just how it works at that level. and honestly who has $10,000,000 liquid, and the answer is no one - its not a simple "oh let me write you a check for that" type of scenario.

                          We can do some real simple net investigation and determine the size of said list. In the United states right now there are approximately 614 Billionaires. I would suggest ALL of them have made investments in this category in one way shape or form or another.

                          We can dig a bit deeper and find that there are 18,600,000 millionaires in the United States. Interestingly in the United States there is a bit of a jog in the numbers because of those 18.6 million there are actually only 11.8 Million "millionaire house holds"

                          We can quickly find that there are 46.8 Million millionaires in the world with a total net worth of 158 Trillion dollars. and looking at a quick average that would suggest on average a millionaire will have a net worth of 3 million. Obviously far below the ability to invest 10 Million right?

                          Through the wonders of the internet we can find pretty fast that the number of households with a net worth of 10 million is 1.35 million homes give or take a bit.

                          And some further digging we can find that there are about 70 thousand with net worths in excess of $50,000,000

                          We can then start looking at how age my give us an indicator... the AVERAGE age of a millionaire in the United States 62 Years OLD. 35% of Millionaires in the United states are over the age of 65. The average age of a Billionaire is actually slightly higher at 66.

                          We can then really start looking at Geographic details. California, New York, and New Jersey may have the highest concentration of "Millionaires" but the cost of living and the tax burden would overall decrease the ability to invest. The states that I would be targeting would be Florida, Texas, Illinois, Nevada, Georgia, and Washington. If I had to expand out a bit more I might include Massachusetts and Connecticut. A side note here... California and New York are where most millionaires live.. as in like 45%, but my research has shown that generally ( loose term ) n these states the percentage of available funds is smaller vs the other States

                          ALL of these things I am listing to some degree or another if you specifically understand the target, can be used within Facebook and Google to narrow the list. Age, location, number of properties, number of cars, sex, race... it all plays in putting an ad in the right place.

                          We can really really start breaking some things down and look at professions... With "Billionaires" there are 4 major categories: Finance, Tech, Retail, and Real Estate that account for about 50% of the 614 billionaires in the United States. Throw in they own 4 or more cars and on average own 9 properties and targeting gets kinda easy.

                          In probably less than a weeks time a person could really have a list of the 614 Billionaires in the United States. Names, address', Social Media, websites, and address, and probably maybe not a direct cel phone but a number of contact.

                          And to really answer the question at hand, how do I base things without knowing the size of the list... it cant be any greater than 1500 names would be an educated guess.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                            Have I had my hands on such a list? ( spent $10,000,000 or more? the how aspect, meaning what exactly they have invested in no ) Invested $10 Million as a matter of fact yes. Actual "liquidity" is not so much a variable at this level, if the investment, or spend has legs or is deemed worth the investment, the funding can be made available - its just how it works at that level. and honestly who has $10,000,000 liquid, and the answer is no one - its not a simple "oh let me write you a check for that" type of scenario.

                            We can do some real simple net investigation and determine the size of said list. In the United states right now there are approximately 614 Billionaires. I would suggest ALL of them have made investments in this category in one way shape or form or another.

                            We can dig a bit deeper and find that there are 18,600,000 millionaires in the United States. Interestingly in the United States there is a bit of a jog in the numbers because of those 18.6 million there are actually only 11.8 Million "millionaire house holds"

                            We can quickly find that there are 46.8 Million millionaires in the world with a total net worth of 158 Trillion dollars. and looking at a quick average that would suggest on average a millionaire will have a net worth of 3 million. Obviously far below the ability to invest 10 Million right?

                            Through the wonders of the internet we can find pretty fast that the number of households with a net worth of 10 million is 1.35 million homes give or take a bit.

                            And some further digging we can find that there are about 70 thousand with net worths in excess of $50,000,000

                            We can then start looking at how age my give us an indicator... the AVERAGE age of a millionaire in the United States 62 Years OLD. 35% of Millionaires in the United states are over the age of 65. The average age of a Billionaire is actually slightly higher at 66.

                            We can then really start looking at Geographic details. California, New York, and New Jersey may have the highest concentration of "Millionaires" but the cost of living and the tax burden would overall decrease the ability to invest. The states that I would be targeting would be Florida, Texas, Illinois, Nevada, Georgia, and Washington. If I had to expand out a bit more I might include Massachusetts and Connecticut. A side note here... California and New York are where most millionaires live.. as in like 45%, but my research has shown that generally ( loose term ) n these states the percentage of available funds is smaller vs the other States

                            ALL of these things I am listing to some degree or another if you specifically understand the target, can be used within Facebook and Google to narrow the list. Age, location, number of properties, number of cars, sex, race... it all plays in putting an ad in the right place.

                            We can really really start breaking some things down and look at professions... With "Billionaires" there are 4 major categories: Finance, Tech, Retail, and Real Estate that account for about 50% of the 614 billionaires in the United States. Throw in they own 4 or more cars and on average own 9 properties and targeting gets kinda easy.

                            In probably less than a weeks time a person could really have a list of the 614 Billionaires in the United States. Names, address', Social Media, websites, and address, and probably maybe not a direct cel phone but a number of contact.

                            And to really answer the question at hand, how do I base things without knowing the size of the list... it cant be any greater than 1500 names would be an educated guess.
                            What you have described are suspects, not 100% buyers.

                            100% buyers are those that have bought a similar thing before.
                            and not some of them, but all of them.

                            Claude has posted about his experience between suspects and buyers of
                            vacuum cleaners from door to door salesmen.

                            Big difference in the value between the two groups.

                            Best,
                            Ewen
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                            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                              Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                              What you have described are suspects, not 100% buyers.

                              100% buyers are those that have bought a similar thing before.
                              and not some of them, but all of them.

                              Claude has posted about his experience between suspects and buyers of
                              vacuum cleaners from door to door salesmen.

                              Big difference in the value between the two groups.

                              Best,
                              Ewen
                              I intentionally, maybe to the point of over intentionally, tried to get this discussion to a point of middle ground. Both sides in this could be right.

                              And again I am not disagreeing that people that buy before will buy again.. we know this to be true... its fact, I get it. BUT there is the other 99% that have NOT bought, and what percentage of those might if not would buy? And again, I will say, this is what separates 6 digits from 9 digits.

                              Low laying "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada"... there are only so many. The overall pool is SMALL. broaden that to say "Red Apples" and the pool of potential buyers increases 10 fold 100 fold 1000 fold.

                              YOU can live a comfortable life seeking "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada" OR you can make the lives of MANY comfortable and focusing on "Red Apples". I could live very well on the 500 business' around me that have bought what it is I sell... but its not me, its not my family, it is the welfare and well being of the multitude of people ( and their families ) that I surround myself with - AKA my employees.

                              You are using your circle of influence as examples.. and that's great... Peter I believe is still pretty much a one man show... Claude is pretty much a one man show... I believe you are pretty much a one man show as well... Im not... I dont know max5ty's exact details but something tells me with $13 Million in ad spend last year... he or she is not alone either.

                              I have called this already, that there is simply a fundamental financial gap in the 2 sides of this discussion... again... 6 digits and 9 digits. MY personal / business financial needs as a business owner with employee's is FAR greater than say Claude his wife and maybe 1 or 2 additional staff. Claude can wait out his 7 year buyers cycle.. he can get lists of those that bought before... is he going to make 7 digits in a year doing this?

                              What happens if I decide tomorrow that I am going to make an investment and buy a kick ton of vacuums tomorrow to sell on the internet... do you think I will make 7 digits? could I make 8 digits? The answer in both cases would be YES... and I would NOT have a list of pre existing buyers to be working with.

                              And don't for 2 seconds think in this flippant tail backwards economic environment we are in right now... with cash in hand, I could not buy 5 or 6 40 foot trailer loads of a name brand product... Just to throw an idea out there a Name like KIRBY... There isn't a dealer within 100 miles of me in any which direction and there is what 2 or 3 dealers in my state total... the deal could be made... im pretty sure in person in home demo sales have been down in the last year.

                              Selling is only 10% of the battle... inventory and its cost, is where the money is made... and actual physical goods... Claude is one of the last, of an incredible breed of people - and I am saying that with the utmost respect. In terms of brick and mortar "Vacuum" shops... 5 maybe 10 years.. they probably will not exist.. and all of that sales knowledge and experience will have retired, and be lost forever.

                              Times have changed if you like it or not... YOU dont have to change - YOU have your level of comfort... but YOUR level and mine - are extreme opposites, not by greed but by circumstance.

                              Both methods work.. its just that plain and simple - one may take a little more work ( oh no not work ?!?!?! ) but in the end the payoff is far greater - 6 digits, 9 digits.

                              PS Claude... Im sorry to bring you into this middle of this, but for this conversation, in this group, you are a universal common denominator. and I tried to keep this to a both side are equal level.. It seems that right is more important than having a discussion.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                                I intentionally, maybe to the point of over intentionally, tried to get this discussion to a point of middle ground. Both sides in this could be right.

                                And again I am not disagreeing that people that buy before will buy again.. we know this to be true... its fact, I get it. BUT there is the other 99% that have NOT bought, and what percentage of those might if not would buy? And again, I will say, this is what separates 6 digits from 9 digits.
                                Again, an insightful post I want to comment on. This isn't really for you, because I think you know this...but just to clarify for some.

                                It isn't just buyers VS non-buyers as a list.

                                There are so many layers of "degrees in which they are likely to buy". that small marketers like I can take advantage of, and so can bigger businesses.

                                There are your own past customers.
                                The customers of people who sold what you sell.
                                The customers of marketers who sell by the same media you sell.
                                The people who bought something that naturally fits what you sell.
                                People who fit the same demographic of the majority of your customers.

                                There are more, but you see an ever widening market. And all of these people are worth seeing.

                                The exception (in my opinion) is if you sell something like "apples" that have such a wide appeal, that you may want to just get a list of people who have bought through the mail before (if you sell by mail) or advertise where these buyers would see your offer.

                                In my business (or at least when I was selling in people's homes), I found that any list of names with any commonality to all with my customers, bought at at least double the rate as a general prospect with a job and good credit (the essential qualifications).

                                Even the names of people that had borrowed money at the same finance company (a huge list) as the company I used to finance my sales.....bought far more than twice as often as someone with no connection (to me or how I sold) at all.

                                So, the universe of buyers can expand exponentially before you start just trying to attract anyone at all.

                                One of the many advantages of a company with sharp people doing research is that you can find all the people that are somehow more likely to buy than most, and test every single appeal, offer, and price.

                                I've done all of those things, but in a more clunky manual way. And my universe is small.


                                By the way, I'm just cranky because I missed a good sized sale today...and knew precisely when I lost it, and why. When you are essentially a one man band, every sour note comes from you.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                                I intentionally, maybe to the point of over intentionally, tried to get this discussion to a point of middle ground. Both sides in this could be right.

                                And again I am not disagreeing that people that buy before will buy again.. we know this to be true... its fact, I get it. BUT there is the other 99% that have NOT bought, and what percentage of those might if not would buy? And again, I will say, this is what separates 6 digits from 9 digits.

                                Low laying "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada"... there are only so many. The overall pool is SMALL. broaden that to say "Red Apples" and the pool of potential buyers increases 10 fold 100 fold 1000 fold.

                                YOU can live a comfortable life seeking "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada" OR you can make the lives of MANY comfortable and focusing on "Red Apples". I could live very well on the 500 business' around me that have bought what it is I sell... but its not me, its not my family, it is the welfare and well being of the multitude of people ( and their families ) that I surround myself with - AKA my employees.

                                You are using your circle of influence as examples.. and that's great... Peter I believe is still pretty much a one man show... Claude is pretty much a one man show... I believe you are pretty much a one man show as well... Im not... I dont know max5ty's exact details but something tells me with $13 Million in ad spend last year... he or she is not alone either.

                                I have called this already, that there is simply a fundamental financial gap in the 2 sides of this discussion... again... 6 digits and 9 digits. MY personal / business financial needs as a business owner with employee's is FAR greater than say Claude his wife and maybe 1 or 2 additional staff. Claude can wait out his 7 year buyers cycle.. he can get lists of those that bought before... is he going to make 7 digits in a year doing this?

                                What happens if I decide tomorrow that I am going to make an investment and buy a kick ton of vacuums tomorrow to sell on the internet... do you think I will make 7 digits? could I make 8 digits? The answer in both cases would be YES... and I would NOT have a list of pre existing buyers to be working with.

                                And don't for 2 seconds think in this flippant tail backwards economic environment we are in right now... with cash in hand, I could not buy 5 or 6 40 foot trailer loads of a name brand product... Just to throw an idea out there a Name like KIRBY... There isn't a dealer within 100 miles of me in any which direction and there is what 2 or 3 dealers in my state total... the deal could be made... im pretty sure in person in home demo sales have been down in the last year.

                                Selling is only 10% of the battle... inventory and its cost, is where the money is made... and actual physical goods... Claude is one of the last, of an incredible breed of people - and I am saying that with the utmost respect. In terms of brick and mortar "Vacuum" shops... 5 maybe 10 years.. they probably will not exist.. and all of that sales knowledge and experience will have retired, and be lost forever.

                                Times have changed if you like it or not... YOU dont have to change - YOU have your level of comfort... but YOUR level and mine - are extreme opposites, not by greed but by circumstance.

                                Both methods work.. its just that plain and simple - one may take a little more work ( oh no not work ?!?!?! ) but in the end the payoff is far greater - 6 digits, 9 digits.

                                PS Claude... Im sorry to bring you into this middle of this, but for this conversation, in this group, you are a universal common denominator. and I tried to keep this to a both side are equal level.. It seems that right is more important than having a discussion.

                                Can we both agree that client duty of care covers financial risk
                                if you are using client's money for advertising?

                                Then can we agree that we would go for highest probability of return on money?

                                If we can then would you agree that running ads to those that have bought similar products or services in the past
                                meet that highest probability ?

                                Once that commitment is made then we can divert some of that profit into lower probability audiences?

                                Best,
                                Ewen
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                                • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                                  Can we both agree that client duty of care covers financial risk
                                  if you are using client's money for advertising?

                                  Then can we agree that we would go for highest probability of return on money?

                                  If we can then would you agree that running ads to those that have bought similar products or services in the past
                                  meet that highest probability ?

                                  Once that commitment is made then we can divert some of that profit into lower probability audiences?

                                  Best,
                                  Ewen
                                  Ewenmack...I love your posts and I love your insights.

                                  I really do...

                                  You're brilliant.

                                  A lot of things I disagree with...but that's life...and that's how we learn from each other.

                                  But, one of the things in this post I'll bring up:

                                  If we can then would you agree that running ads to those that have bought similar products or services in the past
                                  meet that highest probability ?


                                  If you just got cancer...you won't fit this.

                                  If you just injured your back you won't fit this.

                                  If you just had a loved one die, you won't fit this.

                                  If you just got married, you won't fit this.

                                  If you just...

                                  scientific probabilities are great, but they won't build your company beyond where you are.

                                  There are studies after study that prove my point and I'll post some of them.

                                  I love your post. It brought up some great discussion.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                                    Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                                    Ewenmack...I love your posts and I love your insights.

                                    I really do...

                                    You're brilliant.

                                    A lot of things I disagree with...but that's life...and that's how we learn from each other.

                                    But, one of the things in this post I'll bring up:

                                    If we can then would you agree that running ads to those that have bought similar products or services in the past
                                    meet that highest probability ?


                                    If you just got cancer...you won't fit this.

                                    If you just injured your back you won't fit this.

                                    If you just had a loved one die, you won't fit this.

                                    If you just got married, you won't fit this.

                                    If you just...

                                    scientific probabilities are great, but they won't build your company beyond where you are.

                                    There are studies after study that prove my point and I'll post some of them.

                                    I love your post. It brought up some great discussion.
                                    You are right.

                                    If you just bought burial insurance, you aren't going to be buying more.

                                    If you bought a wedding dress, you won't be buying one anytime soon.

                                    If you bought a super yacht you probably not going to be buying another anytime soon.

                                    We have been specifically talking about investors, the size of their investments
                                    the type of investments they invest in and amount of liquidity they have.

                                    Some of these audiences have been spoken to on the phone confirming they are interested in investing,
                                    what type of investment and dollar range.

                                    What we haven't discussed is Peter's client's specific need.

                                    See, no one media, audience fits all situations
                                    and until we honor client duty of care the discussion
                                    shouldn't be about the media/audience until
                                    we fully understand what the client is wanting to achieve.

                                    I don't know fully.

                                    Peter came to me
                                    with his client's needs.

                                    This whole discussion has been making a whole lot of assumptions about a client circumstances.

                                    No probing questions have been asked within this discussion to seek to understand the client's individual needs, situation and constraints.

                                    Once again, it's client duty of care should be at the front and center of the discussion.

                                    Best,
                                    Ewen.
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                                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                                  Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                                  Can we both agree that client duty of care covers financial risk
                                  if you are using client's money for advertising?

                                  Then can we agree that we would go for highest probability of return on money?

                                  If we can then would you agree that running ads to those that have bought similar products or services in the past
                                  meet that highest probability ?

                                  Once that commitment is made then we can divert some of that profit into lower probability audiences?

                                  Best,
                                  Ewen
                                  Can we agree? kinda? depends on your client base right?

                                  Lets jump this back to the OP - and mailers. Depending on the client and their level of trust with my services, what you are laying out would be a 2 step operation. IF and I think we all know its a BIG IF.. the client actually has a "client list" the mailer that subset would get would differ from a mass mailing no? A basic "Thanks for your patronage" vs "hey come check us out" right?

                                  So that is what this OP's specific campaign would look like... but what would my service look like? It would be a bit different. I would be analyzing the online presence of the business. How that business is appearing in google 3 packs. How diverse is the business' online citations? I would bring all of these things up to par, or at the very least a level of effectiveness before we even get into the idea of a mailer.

                                  Let me give you an example of a business / product that is MISSING on this point. Do a search for "sharkskin ventilated roof mat". A product I personally buy and use - but aside from that.. I tell you about it, and you go search it and then what? You cant buy it ANYWHERE ( online ) or are you pointed anywhere offline to buy it if you really keep looking? its a negative on that as well.

                                  If I were to send a "mailer" to home builder or roofers - people that buy this type of thing, and will buy again, and they get out on the net and search around a bit.. what happens? Chances are better than good the sale will be lost.

                                  Want to talk client duty? No online presence that is easily found equates to loss of sale. And that translates in a poor use of the clients funds.

                                  In many many verticals and market spaces today... MAIL is a doorway.. and the online presence is either the validation of trust or path to a sale. The landscape has changed.. Mail and phone calls is no longer the PRIMARY avenue of selling, it is the vehicle to get people there. And there are many many people in this world in advertising in particular that don't seem to understand that.

                                  I would suggest for mail to work in todays world.. the online presence needs to be on point.

                                  So do we agree? I'm not so sure we do... but that's all good. My experience and philosophies would have a fairly precise online presence in place before the mailers even began. by DEFAULT.. I would have the path for "Red Apples" in place long before I even began with "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada".
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                                  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                                    Can we agree? kinda? depends on your client base right?

                                    Lets jump this back to the OP - and mailers. Depending on the client and their level of trust with my services, what you are laying out would be a 2 step operation. IF and I think we all know its a BIG IF.. the client actually has a "client list" the mailer that subset would get would differ from a mass mailing no? A basic "Thanks for your patronage" vs "hey come check us out" right?

                                    So that is what this OP's specific campaign would look like... but what would my service look like? It would be a bit different. I would be analyzing the online presence of the business. How that business is appearing in google 3 packs. How diverse is the business' online citations? I would bring all of these things up to par, or at the very least a level of effectiveness before we even get into the idea of a mailer.

                                    Let me give you an example of a business / product that is MISSING on this point. Do a search for "sharkskin ventilated roof mat". A product I personally buy and use - but aside from that.. I tell you about it, and you go search it and then what? You cant buy it ANYWHERE ( online ) or are you pointed anywhere offline to buy it if you really keep looking? its a negative on that as well.

                                    If I were to send a "mailer" to home builder or roofers - people that buy this type of thing, and will buy again, and they get out on the net and search around a bit.. what happens? Chances are better than good the sale will be lost.

                                    Want to talk client duty? No online presence that is easily found equates to loss of sale. And that translates in a poor use of the clients funds.

                                    In many many verticals and market spaces today... MAIL is a doorway.. and the online presence is either the validation of trust or path to a sale. The landscape has changed.. Mail and phone calls is no longer the PRIMARY avenue of selling, it is the vehicle to get people there. And there are many many people in this world in advertising in particular that don't seem to understand that.

                                    I would suggest for mail to work in todays world.. the online presence needs to be on point.

                                    So do we agree? I'm not so sure we do... but that's all good. My experience and philosophies would have a fairly precise online presence in place before the mailers even began. by DEFAULT.. I would have the path for "Red Apples" in place long before I even began with "red mcintosh apples grown in Canada".
                                    Good point with all the channels being an option.

                                    If they are all profitable no point in killing them off.

                                    I made a post about Adwords and Direct mail today
                                    and how taking one winning media ad campaign
                                    and adapt it to another media channel.

                                    As I type this it's waiting for approval.

                                    Best,
                                    Ewen
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                                    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                                      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                                      Good point with all the channels being an option.

                                      If they are all profitable no point in killing them off.
                                      I dont think its an option - thats kinda the point. I have researched the snot out of this at a local market level. A business selling by mail with no online presence will get negligible response. A business with just a social media presence will get a better response. A business with a website but not easily found in search will get a tick higher response.. and a business that can be found with ease online socially and search gets 3 and 4 fold response.

                                      Online is used as validation. People get a mailer, and go online and look. As a web developer AND a mail marketer I can track this stuff.. mailers went out on Wednesday and you can clearly see the increase in direct initiated visits ( typed URL directly ) and search related visits. In the days following, the direct initiated visits drop but the search related visits actually elevate.

                                      my thinking here is they threw out the mailer, and search for X and remember the name because it is where it needs to be, and they click. Meaning you have used the mailer as the path that puts blinders on the searcher as they are specifically looking for YOU, and they find you.

                                      If we are talking about conversions right? actually making your client money, I have the data that says you HAVE TO do it this way or you are throwing money out the window.

                                      For me as a service provider... "Ideal Customer" right? I want to sell mailer services, I had better be sure they have an online presence, because the effect of my mailer efforts DEPEND on that other aspect.

                                      The flip side of this for me the service provider.. A potential client comes to me and says hey can I get some mailers, and I look and dont like what I see... I bring them in the office and show them the data. You want me to send mailers.. sure, but we need to get this and this and that in order first.. will you be paying by check or credit card?

                                      And in the END.. for those clients that have bought mailer services in the past... and it sucked.. but they continue to anyways because they were clueless it sucked. and you make the changes and show the direct effect? I call this client retention. I call this fiscal responsibility for my clients.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                                      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                                      I made a post about Adwords and Direct mail today
                                      and how taking one winning media ad campaign
                                      and adapt it to another media channel.
                                      Absolutely this is true.. a funnel is a funnel is a funnel. The process of bait, lander, and sale works universally - and the details ( header, text, and opt-in /purchase ) are universally the same.

                                      A next level option in all of this is to use TWITTER ( of all platforms?! ) to test these things for FREE. You can test headlines ( tweets ) based on response ( retweets and likes ).

                                      Keeps the old quality score up on the adwords account. which in turn lowers cost, and increase position.

                                      Repeated success in all of this isnt by accident. Trial and error on the actual ad platform.. or mailer testing for that matter is detrimental to the overall effect... knowing how to get it right before hand is the key.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

      A friend who was a Adwords and Facebook ad expert had a client go to him to run ads to flush out investors with a minimum
      $10 million to invest.
      Lets go back to this...

      I think I have identified the actual size of this "Target Audience" is pretty small. I went back and have looked at my $10,000,000 investment list and the number was 138 ( and the list is from 3 years ago ) My list excluded LLC and Corps and was specifically "personal Investment"

      Lets get real and honest about this scenario... aside from say Elon Musk... how many of the Jumbo size investors even spend any amount of time online? How many of these Jumbo sized investors even open their own mail?

      There would be a couple of strategies to employ to get at these people.

      #1 would circle of influence.. you have to use "Six Degrees of Separation" You have to find the guy that knows the guy that actually knows the guy you are trying to get a meeting with to put in a word.

      #2 You have to research the snot out of the "Suspect" and send a highly personalize and probably expensive piece of lumpy mail ( collector sports jersey or the like )

      #3 I saw a video where Gary Vaynerchuk explained a strategy that he got in front of the guy he wanted to by creating content targeting the daughter and SHE then shared the content with the father - and closed a $6 Million dollar deal

      This isnt selling toasters... this isnt selling a training course... This is BIG LEAGUE stuff.. and a piece of paper in an envelope or a cold call just aint going to get it.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        Lets go back to this...

        I think I have identified the actual size of this "Target Audience" is pretty small. I went back and have looked at my $10,000,000 investment list and the number was 138 ( and the list is from 3 years ago ) My list excluded LLC and Corps and was specifically "personal Investment"

        Lets get real and honest about this scenario... aside from say Elon Musk... how many of the Jumbo size investors even spend any amount of time online? How many of these Jumbo sized investors even open their own mail?

        There would be a couple of strategies to employ to get at these people.

        #1 would circle of influence.. you have to use "Six Degrees of Separation" You have to find the guy that knows the guy that actually knows the guy you are trying to get a meeting with to put in a word.

        #2 You have to research the snot out of the "Suspect" and send a highly personalize and probably expensive piece of lumpy mail ( collector sports jersey or the like )

        #3 I saw a video where Gary Vaynerchuk explained a strategy that he got in front of the guy he wanted to by creating content targeting the daughter and SHE then shared the content with the father - and closed a $6 Million dollar deal

        This isnt selling toasters... this isnt selling a training course... This is BIG LEAGUE stuff.. and a piece of paper in an envelope or a cold call just aint going to get it.
        Early on I posted about the investment arms of the ultra wealthy called Family Offices.

        That means the decision makers on behalf of the ultra wealthy.

        I also pointed out that there are lists of investors that have been spoken to on the phone,
        been qualified as to the size of the investment and open to finding out about investment opportunities in a certain sector.

        All filtered to match your target.

        Best,
        Ewen
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          Early on I posted about the investment arms of the ultra wealthy called Family Offices.

          That means the decision makers on behalf of the ultra wealthy.

          I also pointed out that there are lists of investors that have been spoken to on the phone,
          been qualified as to the size of the investment and open to finding out about investment opportunities in a certain sector.

          All filtered to match your target.

          Best,
          Ewen
          ok and? I am a founding member of a medical start up that organizes a group of doctors in a community and develop and ancillary service on the back end of a LLC. WE have spent a lot of money on lists... I never found a mailer that was effective. Online efforts were FAR better - and fairly easily targeted. In both cases we could geographically target. In both cases we could target a specific type of doctor. In both cases we could identify the use of the ancillary service.

          BUT one was at the mercy of a gate keeper, and the other was a direct communication with the doctor his or herself. One was us reaching out to them, and the other was them reaching out to us.

          THIS very experience has changed the methods on which I do things. I dont like the constant chase... I need another, and another, and another. Its freakin stressful. But what happens when they are coming to you? and not only when you actively do something, but actually constantly are contacting you? You cant achieve this with Cold Calling.. ads in the newspaper.. ads in trade mags.. or with mailers.

          Sure an ad may work... but how does it work the 2nd time, the 3rd time the 4th? I think we ALL can agree that there is a degree of conversion degradation correct?

          What happens if on the potential clients time... They find you for the first time.. because they are looking? It was mind blowing in my instance how many were "Looking" and how many of those that were "looking" and were within the parameters of a "Ideal Customer" were NOT on the lists. Lists are not a Holy Grail... a starting point maybe. Obviously somewhere somehow there is value in them because in this very thread I have made mention of a number of lists I have purchased. And I cant even begin to count how many lists I have created and used to find clients.

          I would more than argue there is a better way... and for me, it was a point of contrast mind shift in the way I do things. Mailers, Ads on and offline, PPC all of it.. its a faucet... you can turn it on and you can turn it off. I dont plan on going out of business tomorrow.. the business owners I provide services for I am pretty sure feel the same way.

          Why would I provide a service that will get a client a customer today to make it look like I did something for them... isnt it in my best interest to get them a client today, tomorrow, the next day, the day after that and so on. You can do just that, with online efforts. Lists are starting points.. they are far from the answer to everything.

          Let us know how Peter does with his list. I know things are different in the States than in Canada.. I would be more inclined to develop an LLC with 10 people with $1,000,000 to invest vs 1 whale at $10,000,000. I think we say it here all the time its just as easy to find 1 as it is 10... but you know, sometimes, its just easier to find the 10 than it is the one.
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    What we have here... Is a failure... to communicate


    There is kinda 3 groups of thought within this small group that is "regulars" on the offline board. There are hardline offliners, there are hybrids ( use both ), and there are onliners for offline business'.

    Being the guy I am and the way I see things, these groups have a tendency of being defined by age... The older crowd is pretty set in the offline methods and have not really ever made a transition to online advertising. They may use the technology but the ideology of its use is deeply rooted in old school offline principles.

    The ( in general ) younger crowd is obviously more hip to the times and wouldn't use offline methods if you paid them.. they just dont understand the whole idea

    Then there are those of us in the middle... I can speak for myself and say that I employ BOTH methods. The platform may be different - mailbox vs facebook ads but the message adjusted for method of delivery is exactly the same.

    Simple numbers... on the best of days I can get a mailer to produce between 3 and 7% conversion... with online methods those numbers are starting points, and once optimized I have a tendency to run in the 11 to 20% conversion area.

    So as max5ty has asked - "WHY?" The short answer in relation to this group specifically? You cant teach an old dog new tricks. ( no offense to the old dogs in the group )

    The L - O - N - G - E - R answer is I would suggest that optimally you would want to employ both methods. A quick personal scenario for you... I sell satellite internet services - My primary best customer does NOT have internet in their home. Once the target customer is away from their home they are in some other city for work every day, so targeting by say geographic location when the potential target is online would be a miss... BUT a mailer to address' that I have mapped to not have access to DSL or cable... its like sitting ducks really. "Old School" mail is simply in this instance a better approach.

    I can define that line a little further and suggest that anytime the advertising goal is to reach " L O C A L " Online is not always the best - there are instances it has its advantages, don't get me wrong - but in terms of "Conversions" online conversion percentages are hit and miss, and the offline efforts have a tendency of being far more consistent - more expensive, YES, BUT more consistent.

    There is another variable at play here as well... and it comes down to the wallet at the end of the day... $13 Million in ad spend, figuring somewhere between 6 and 20% of cost translates to a NINE digit Gross ( 123,456,789.00 ) at the end of the day. Most people that are probably reading this wont ever make $13 million in their lifetime let alone NINE digits.

    So what we have is 2 fold.. we have a Generation Gap ( for the lack of a better term ) and we have an Economic Gap.

    I would suggest that there is really no wrong way - as long as the way is A) profitable, and B) meets your end goal financial needs. Its great to have a list of past customers or buying customers or whatever and have the ability to reach and and touch them either by mail or by phone... BUT that list is "SHORT" by default.

    If in my business of say web design only contacted past customers or customers that had websites within my community I would have a customer base of about 3000 or so prospects - many of which I have already sold to leaving me maybe 500? BUT if I go out and seek the remaining small business' without websites Im no longer targeting 500, I am targeting 7000 to 15,000 roughly.

    The EASY way is to target the 500... however, long term financially, digging into the 7 to 15K category makes sense... but, yes it is more work. The expense of reaching the 7 to 15k with offline methods would be through the roof... online targeting however is "Affordable" so in a way it comes down to a means to an end. Again this balancing act is is not always teetered to the online methods case and point would be Satellite Internet sales.

    But lets use bed buying as an example... targeting people that went on vacation is GREAT.. fine and dandy.. but I just bought a mattress and haven't been on "vacation" since Nov of 2019 - and I am obviously not alone... and how did I determine where to buy my mattress? a web search - more specifically google maps and local listings for places that sold " Mattress' " As suggested above, when specifically targeting "Local" online with exceptions is the better of 2 the options. It comes down to being in front of a buyer when they are ready to buy... the chance that a mailer is delivered at that exact moment "Happens" but the opportunity to be in front of a prospective customer when they are searching is a no brainer ( if as max5ty stated is done correctly )

    Again I am not picking a side here... I use both.. I understand both sides of this discussion. As long as the execution of what ever method you are using produces the financial results you are looking for does it really matter? Just keep in mind there is without question financial disparity between the 2 methods ( as per the regular members of this group ) is $100,000 your goal, or are you shooting for $100,000,000+ in Gross?
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  • Profile picture of the author pikemo2012
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Kennedy is a crotchety old man (about my age). But every time I hear him speak, even if it's a pitch, the deep insights just flow out of his mouth. And eventually a few of them seep into my little brain.

      I've listened to hundreds of hours of him live and on CDs. There was never a minute where I felt he was wasting my time.

      Originally Posted by pikemo2012 View Post

      Kennedy is an irritable elderly person (about my age). However, every time I hear him talk, regardless of whether it's a pitch, the profound bits of knowledge simply stream out of his mouth. Also, ultimately a couple of them saturate my little cerebrum.

      I've tuned in to many long stretches of him live and on CDs. There was never brief where I felt he was burning through my time.
      Thank you for taking one of my posts, running it through an article spinner, and posting it here.

      You post shows a genius that can only come from deep insights.
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      "Be kind. For everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".....Ian Maclaren
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Thank you for taking one of my posts, running it through an article spinner, and posting it here.

        You post shows a genius that can only come from deep insights.
        Usually when you read a spun piece, you KNOW its a spun piece. I would have to say if that is the result of a bit of software, i might could be in at this point... thats crazy good. ( with the exception of the last "brief" moment )
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          Usually when you read a spun piece, you KNOW its a spun piece. I would have to say if that is the result of a bit of software, i might could be in at this point... thats crazy good. ( with the exception of the last "brief" moment )
          Now that you mention it, it is pretty good. I used to have spinning software that I used to rewrite entire sentences. Every sentence would have 3 or 4 versions that read well. But the sentences were complete, I didn't switch words in the sentences.

          I used them to submit articles to article sites and on my client's websites. They all read well.

          But I know what you mean, the usual spun articles are barely readable.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        Look at the bright side, they did not sin versa you. (vice versa = sin versa, see?)



        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Thank you for taking one of my posts, running it through an article spinner, and posting it here.

        You post shows a genius that can only come from deep insights.
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        • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
          Originally Posted by DABK View Post

          Look at the bright side, they did not sin versa you. (vice versa = sin versa, see?)
          So your saying then that Sin Versa You x vice versa = Sin versa see

          - Sin x vice versa = You See

          So then answer to the thread is a simple equation
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

            So your saying then that Sin Versa You x vice versa = Sin versa see

            - Sin x vice versa = You See

            So then answer to the thread is a simple equation
            SV x VV = C
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          • Profile picture of the author DABK
            I'm but a simple mortal, I did not see. Thanks for enlightening me.


            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            SV x VV = C
            Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

            So your saying then that Sin Versa You x vice versa = Sin versa see

            - Sin x vice versa = You See

            So then answer to the thread is a simple equation
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  • Profile picture of the author Sebulba
    This is a wonderful thread.


    Brings back memories of the old WF.


    Keep it up.


    Seb
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  • Profile picture of the author grace green
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by grace green View Post

      amzn.to/???
      <<Spam link edited by moderator>>

      this has to be the DUMBEST attempt at link promotion I have seen to date on this forum. The product being linked to, is "UNAVAILABLE". For the love of god man. Its bad enough you are just linking crap in posts.. but to post a link that is not capable to convert?

      I can see the post now.. I have been posting links to my product for the last year and have not made any money, what am I doing wrong?
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  • Profile picture of the author philipp lahm
    I know it. I've listened to hundred of hours of him speak. very interesting
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  • Profile picture of the author homeriscool
    Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

    Here's a quote I stumbled upon
    from Dan Kennedy...

    "The last place of marketing liberty is inside an envelope. No spam filter in the mail. No review process. No one is going to check what you're saying. No one will throttle your campaign. You can run any ad you like. Good luck with that in other media. No one will outbid you on the price of a stamp."
    This is damn good info.

    I'm getting pummeled in the Google Ads game at the minute.

    People are bidding crazy money for my once "cheap" keywords.

    I'm seriously thinking about direct mail.
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