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I had an interesting conversation with a potential client today..

by ryanmckinney
33 replies
Hey Guys and Gals,

So I got a call back from a potential client today for some SEO work. We have back and forthed* on e-mail for about a week now.

He is looking for an SEO consultant to do some SEO work for a page on his site, the main domain is a pr4, the inner pages are pr3. The page he wants some SEO work on is a "classifieds" page he just got off the ground running.

He wanted to test my "skills" first, and said "this is the keyword, and this is the URL" that I have in mind to test you on.

So I told him (we are still on e-mail traffic here) - "I'll rank you for one keyword for a small set-up fee, and I will get to work (this has worked in the past to secure clients who are scared to take that large leap with someone over the phone they don't know and always leads to a full time client).

So finally, he called me.

We had a lengthy conversation, and it boiled down to this (in no certain order):

His compnay is an S-Corps, and has been on multiple tv shows and specials, he not a "fly by night business", been around for 12 years, he understands SEO and it's importance as he use to do his own some years back, but now does not have the time since he employees 20+ people. He owns multiple other online companies. He is not paying until he has results, which would then turn lucrative to do long-term contractual SEO work for his S-Corps and many other online businesses.

The company/guy checks out to his claims. So potentially a big deal, and 1 that would cover what 5,8,10 of my clients may cover, just with this 1 client.

I explained I am not in the business of giving away free work with no guarantee I will get compensated, he takes the SEO and runs. I have a gut feeling he wouldn't do that, but want to protect my back and use time wisely.

He mentioned he is all about setting something up and then paying for the results, he did not mention a contract in the same sentence with regards to this.


I already have 1 large business as a client, that I rank for keywords that allows them to take orders across the country.. the SEO part, does not worry me, it is the "prove your self before I pay but I will pay you good if you do" that worries me.

A part of me wants to tell him thanks but no thanks, the other part of me is saying "this guy can pay your rent, car, water bill, and some gambling money every month".

For my offline veterans, I ask you this: How would you handle this situation? Stick to your business model "no free work, I take money up front", or gamble, do the free work for a large business with huge potential pay-off that is not guaranteed?

Thanks in advance

Ryan
#client #conversation #interesting #potential #today
  • Profile picture of the author whatlljk
    free work devalues both the work itself and your image as a real professional. don't do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      I've known of (personally) bigger companies than 20 employees where the owner was quick to rip off people in the exact way you are speaking of. Does he have to provide free work to his potential clients? Probably not.

      I agree with the previous post in this thread. If you expect to be treated as a professional, you have to act like one.

      I don't own a 20 person corporation, however, I like to see results before I fully committ for SEO of anything else. When I have needed to have SEO work done, I've PAID for smaller projects to see the results. Your client has NO reason not to do the same.

      I would also caution you to not allow him to put it on his credit card. My instinct tells me that you're looking at a chargeback regardless of the resulting SEO work.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    When someone has to explain how big they are to you it is usually a sign to walk away from them. What does it matter what size his company is? The deal is he pays the set up fee up front. Period. If he doesn't like it tell him he can go somewhere else and beg for his bread.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Look, if his business is really as great as he says, which may be the case, then he should be able to afford to pay you. His bragging shows weakness in my opinion. I don't think he is going to pay you anyway.

    Him mentioning he is an S-Corp is not something that should put your mind at ease. If he was a sole prop it would be almost better. That way you could sue him if he doesn't abide by the agreement, and he wouldn't have to do any fancy stuff to avoid that! Right now, run away... dont turn your back and walk, just run. This is a no good situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
    That was my gut guys, number deleted! BOOM!

    On to the next.

    Just needed reassurance I wasnt crazy haha, new to client gathering and actually talking and selling my services per say, just never been approached in that way before...

    thanks for the slap back to reality!

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      By the way....SCorp is no big deal. I've had 2 when I was broke!
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      • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
        Originally Posted by David Miller View Post

        By the way....SCorp is no big deal. I've had 2 when I was broke!

        So.. how many you got now if ya' ain't broke?
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        • Profile picture of the author David Miller
          Originally Posted by ryanmckinney View Post

          So.. how many you got now if ya' ain't broke?
          I'm all about the DBA these days....SCorp was way too much agravation and lotsa love letters from the State and IRS....

          Oh yea....I'm not broke anymore!
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          • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
            Originally Posted by David Miller View Post

            ..I'm not broke anymore!

            lol congrats!
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    • Profile picture of the author RepATX
      THose who brag are often times the ones that have very minimal liquid cash flow. Most places would be okay with a test run. I have dealt with many of these types and often times I want to post this thread and see what they say after that.

      If you had allowed him to do this, you would be considered an easy work target and thats no fun.

      Good looking out and following that deeper gut feeling..

      Originally Posted by ryanmckinney View Post

      That was my gut guys, number deleted! BOOM!

      On to the next.

      Just needed reassurance I wasnt crazy haha, new to client gathering and actually talking and selling my services per say, just never been approached in that way before...

      thanks for the slap back to reality!

      Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author TolyZ
    You say that this guys knows SEO, yet he wants you to GUARANTEE him top1 spot? I'm sorry, but in SEO there is no guarantees. Honestly don't do it.

    Just ask him, when he goes to the store and buys "brand new TV" that suppose to have awesome picture, does he pulls that sh*t? "Oh Let me take it home, test drive it for a month and then I'll let you know if I'll pay you".

    Honestly it looks unprofessional on his part.
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    • Profile picture of the author swilliams09
      I would give him some satisfied clients as reference and expect some sort of payment or contract upfront, but no I wouldn't do spec work. I used to get people wanting me to create designs or videos and pay me afterwards. Usually I end up not getting paid or they would try to talk me down on price as "the work is already done'. A deposit shows seriousness of intent.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by TolyZ View Post

      You say that this guys knows SEO, yet he wants you to GUARANTEE him top1 spot? I'm sorry, but in SEO there is no guarantees. Honestly don't do it.

      Just ask him, when he goes to the store and buys "brand new TV" that suppose to have awesome picture, does he pulls that sh*t? "Oh Let me take it home, test drive it for a month and then I'll let you know if I'll pay you".

      Honestly it looks unprofessional on his part.

      That was something I basically said to him, but it a more tactful approach in still trying to convince him into something up front for me to start.

      "Well, do you give away *this product* in hopes you will get more business from people?"

      He also kept trying to say this (man the more I talk about this, the more it starts to tick me off!) : "If you are confident enough in your work, you should have no problem in providing results first". I told him well, google "this high competitive keyword" and call this company from the first page, talk to the owner, namehere.

      He dodge the statement completely.

      This is a good learning experience, so far all of my potentials have been easy to deal with..
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Yes you made the right move. First of all he was making you chase him. Not enough pain on the table. Then you offered a trial with a small down payment. That's good. I use this "monkey's paw" approach often...I'll write the report or do the initial thing...and if you like it, then I'll deduct that amount from the larger amount we agree upon later. Keeps you from getting used for free education by prospects who then disappear.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

      Yes you made the right move. First of all he was making you chase him. Not enough pain on the table. Then you offered a trial with a small down payment. That's good. I use this "monkey's paw" approach often...I'll write the report or do the initial thing...and if you like it, then I'll deduct that amount from the larger amount we agree upon later. Keeps you from getting used for free education by prospects who then disappear.

      Jason, that is exactly what has worked in the past. Small amount up front, taken away from the actual amount "set up fee" at a later date.

      Now that I think of our convo more and more, he was sort of arrogant, but I just let him talk (isn't that what we are suppose to do? Lol)..

      But when he started talking about free work, I was just told him that is not how I do things.

      Again, learning the art of "selling", I don't have time to do anything for free anyways.. well unless I am giving a free fanpage away that takes about 5 minutes to do
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Bucker
    My friend, the end result is that you want the sale. So let’s all not get so caught up in this guy’s personality or exactly how he is dealing with this and automatically dismiss him or his abilities.

    He is a dominate business owner, there are a great number of these men who are arrogant it comes with the dominate personality at times. I deal with a client face to face who owns several businesses and is a multi millionaire and guess what, I don’t like his arrogance. I am not after a friendship though I am after his money.


    He also may be operating out of fear because he has been ripped off before doing this exact thing. Now you seem to be acting in fear that you might get ripped off. Fear gets us nowhere and makes us no money.


    If he wants to know he is getting value before he pays and you want to get paid before you render services, I would suggest you refer him to your other big client as a reference. Let him know you understand why he is cautious this is not new to you. He has a right to be cautious based on the service some of your competitors give. This is why you will be glad to give him contact information for those you have helped.


    Let’s think of ways to close this guy instead of talking about how he may not be credible, has an attitude or may not measure up to all his claims. It will all come out in the process anyway if he is legit or not.


    So how do we close this deal? First off your references for him to personally call and check, second say I completely appreciate that you ask for something free. And quite frankly I would be disappointed if you did not. However, I cannot help but to think you are testing me. So I am going to go ahead and past the test and tell you no, but thank you for the test. I worry about any business owner such as myself and you who cannot hold their value. I do not think I could do business with such a person.


    I will deliver as I promise and I will hand you the evidence you need of previous proven results. We will have a long relationship and provide a great service to each other. I am excited about working with you. So, lets start out small…. I will charge you _____ for this first transaction. You will get _____ results and we will start our journey together. Here are three suggestions of where we can start ……… Which would you like to go with first?
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by Michael Bucker View Post

      My friend, the end result is that you want the sale. So let's all not get so caught up in this guy's personality or exactly how he is dealing with this and automatically dismiss him or his abilities.

      He is a dominate business owner, there are a great number of these men who are arrogant it comes with the dominate personality at times. I deal with a client face to face who owns several businesses and is a multi millionaire and guess what, I don't like his arrogance. I am not after a friendship though I am after his money.


      He also may be operating out of fear because he has been ripped off before doing this exact thing. Now you seem to be acting in fear that you might get ripped off. Fear gets us nowhere and makes us no money.


      If he wants to know he is getting value before he pays and you want to get paid before you render services, I would suggest you refer him to your other big client as a reference. Let him know you understand why he is cautious this is not new to you. He has a right to be cautious based on the service some of your competitors give. This is why you will be glad to give him contact information for those you have helped.


      Let's think of ways to close this guy instead of talking about how he may not be credible, has an attitude or may not measure up to all his claims. It will all come out in the process anyway if he is legit or not.


      So how do we close this deal? First off your references for him to personally call and check, second say I completely appreciate that you ask for something free. And quite frankly I would be disappointed if you did not. However, I cannot help but to think you are testing me. So I am going to go ahead and past the test and tell you no, but thank you for the test. I worry about any business owner such as myself and you who cannot hold their value. I do not think I could do business with such a person.


      I will deliver as I promise and I will hand you the evidence you need of previous proven results. We will have a long relationship and provide a great service to each other. I am excited about working with you. So, lets start out small.... I will charge you _____ for this first transaction. You will get _____ results and we will start our journey together. Here are three suggestions of where we can start ......... Which would you like to go with first?
      Thanks for this feedback!

      Point taken.

      I like the "script" of sorts, this is nice, and yes I am after his money!

      I appreciate everyone's feedback here, only about 45 days into my offline career.

      I have spoken to my other big client, and he is more than happy to talk with this gentlemen as a reference.

      Thanks again.

      Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author DNChamp
    I like to know who made the very first contact? Did he contact you via your website? Did you cold call him? How did the first contact take place? Also see if he is willing to give you one of his products/services as trade for the 1 keyword (if it is something you like) so if you do your job then you can say no more product money only. If you fail your job he is not out real money just a product.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by DNChamp View Post

      I like to know who made the very first contact? Did he contact you via your website? Did you cold call him? How did the first contact take place? Also see if he is willing to give you one of his products/services as trade for the 1 keyword (if it is something you like) so if you do your job then you can say no more product money only. If you fail your job he is not out real money just a product.
      I give away a free report on my website, and my auto responder contacts 2 days after, asking if they liked the report (a GP report), and if I can help with anything, to which he responded via e-mail and it started a series of e-mails.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mar
        On a completely different scale from this, we sometimes have visitors in our store asking for the price of a postcard and what the discount would be if they purchase 10. My answer has been "If I have to negotiate the price of the cards, the price goes up." Ok, I don't do that often but there isn't enough margin for me to negotiate discounts for postcards. I am worth more than that.

        As are you ....

        I know the market is difficult and when you're looking for new clients, you can feel vulnerable. I think your final shot to this man is to tell him that you give great value for money. Your prices are being held until end of January 2012 and after that, there's a price increase of x%. Also, include in this final email an e-invoice through paypal or your payment processor for the full amount. He might surprise you and pay it .

        Margaret

        ps - make sure you specify the exact work you will do for this fellow and the terms and conditions for it when you create the invoice.
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  • Profile picture of the author jhuman
    check out the book "Pitch Anything" by Oren Klaff.

    typically, these larger deals tend to have the dance and pony show but you have to get to a point where you just say, "are you in or out?" then move on because you're wasting valuable time in catering to a discussion that may never materialize. Sure, you've gained experience and blah blah, blah but often times business people will use the illusion of money making potential as leverage and protecting your valuable skills as a scarce resource meaning that it is not available to anyone will make the potential client move forward. And make sure you don't use the illusion on yourself too.

    I found it to be incredibly satisfying when I could pick and choose the Client and just tell the client, listen, this is what I could do for you and this is how much it is going to cost you. Are you in or out? Then move on, no hard feelings.

    I think people forget that money is just paper. Money needs people to exist, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy money but as soon as you realize that no matter how much money someone has, the most powerful person in the room will be the person that is able to just walk away.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by jhuman View Post

      check out the book "Pitch Anything" by Oren Klaff.

      I Will look into that, I have been soaking in as many books as I can over the last 45 days.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Reading more is fine, but don't get stuck in "analysis paralysis."

    Qualify your prospects In or Out, without emotion. They either want to do business with you, or you don't chase them and waste your time & energy doing so. It's much easier and quicker to find other people who do want to do business with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
      Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

      Reading more is fine, but don't get stuck in "analysis paralysis."

      Qualify your prospects In or Out, without emotion. They either want to do business with you, or you don't chase them and waste your time & energy doing so. It's much easier and quicker to find other people who do want to do business with you.

      I am definitely not stuck there, I have been "taking" action, prospecting, filling the pipeline. I just like a good read. Dan Kennedy's name comes up often, I need to check him out.. just finished how to win friends and influence people.. going to read it again.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by ryanmckinney View Post

        I am definitely not stuck there, I have been "taking" action, prospecting, filling the pipeline. I just like a good read. Dan Kennedy's name comes up often, I need to check him out.. just finished how to win friends and influence people.. going to read it again.
        Hi, I wasn't saying that you *were* stuck there, just a friendly warning *not* to get stuck there.

        I know you take action.

        Yes, Dan Kennedy is good...I've been reading and working with his stuff since around 1994.

        Just want you spending your time finding prospects that urgently need what you offer, rather than chasing people who want to fool around
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        • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
          Originally Posted by kaniganj View Post

          Hi, I wasn't saying that you *were* stuck there, just a friendly warning *not* to get stuck there.

          I know you take action.

          Yes, Dan Kennedy is good...I've been reading and working with his stuff since around 1994.

          Just want you spending your time finding prospects that urgently need what you offer, rather than chasing people who want to fool around
          In the 'beginning' (2 months ago), I found every excuse in the book not to take action! "I need to finish my site" - "I need to upgrade paypal" , "it's the weekend, I'll start Monday" "It's 74 degrees outside, I'll wait until its in the 60s" .. I was spending my time finding reasons to NOT take action.

          It is funny when you start to take action, things start working out, strange how that works!

          Now comes the learning curve of talking to business owners -

          Ryan
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Bucker
            My friend it looks like you will be fine between the mountain of advice you have gotten here. Do me a favor and PM me once you get results. I would like to know where it goes. Regardless if you close this guy or not you have good techniques to use now.
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  • Profile picture of the author kenyaengineering
    Great business, hefty pay! If the business is indeed great then let him pay you something. Insist on some sort of payment or just fore-go it all together. Maybe your chasing them will waste you.
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  • Profile picture of the author rideotm
    If it don't feel right, it usually ain't right...he probably has a slew of clients with heel marks on their backs from him running all over them. I bet he can't or won't provide references
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanmckinney
    Definitely Michael!

    Posting here is not just for my self, but the other newbies in the shadows who do not want to ask questions for whatever reasons. The WF is great, someone is always here to help -

    I am not afraid of asking the question, If I do not know the answer.. and I value a lot of the feedback here from people who are talking on experience.

    This was something I never came across in my young offline career, I knew the first place I was coming was right to this section.

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author CageyVet
      I do a fair bit of work through online freelance sites and see this kind of request for work all the time. The client will not pay till they see results.

      This is because of a few reasons....

      1- they are looking to rip you off. This is the case about 25% of the time. They will find any excuse to not pay you because you did not achieve the results on time, as stated or what ever.
      2- they are afraid of the internet in general and do not want to get ripped off themselves. This is about 15% of the time.
      3- they have been burned in the past with people saying they will SEO the hell out of their site with no real results. They want to see results the next time. This happens about 50% of the time.
      4- the last 10% are just the weird cases that do not fall into any of the top 3. Things like the client is just an idiot, they are in debt etc.

      There are three ways to deal with any of these pay after results clients.
      1- take the chance and do the work, then hope to get paid in the end.
      2- go through an escrow services agency to secure the payment with a 3rd party till the work is completed. This shows that they client IS willing to pay and it shows you ARE willing to complete the work properly to get the money released.
      3- just do not deal with them. There are clients EVERYWHERE, go find clients that are easier to deal with. This is what I always do for local clients, for online clients I go through Escrow.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeff Chandler
        I started out doing a few free jobs hoping to land a large client. In one case, I did a free job to get in the door of a major multi-national corp, then was completely stiffed on the bill for some subsequent work.

        I learned my lesson and don't do any of those types of free projects anymore. Although I have bartered some custom work in exchange for something I needed from a client.
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