Things sure have changed around here...

80 replies
So I haven't read this forum for a couple of years or so it seems ... wondering if anyone can give me a cliff notes update on what I've missed?

I was a long time lurker for years, bought a few WSOs, bounced around a lot but never really got involved because I had nothing really to share (or I felt I didn't).

Then in late 2009, that massive Offline Marketing thread started by Dexx went absolutely bonkers with all sorts of great info in it. I'm aware that AP disappeared off the face of the planet (I did get 'sucked in' by his offering btw) but I learned plenty to get out there and have a dip.

For a variety of reasons I stopped lurking here as much - a combination of looking at a couple of other forums, making a go of it myself, and I won't deny the whole AP thing left a bitter taste in my mouth. I can't remember exactly how long I have been away - I drifted without even realising I was to be honest - but I got the email from Freelancer saying the site had been purchased and thought I should come back and check things out.

First thought I had was - wow where did everybody go? Dexx, Michael Hiles, Vagabond, DogScout, AndrewCavanagh - there are a number of guys I remember who seem to have moved on or don't post much anymore - do we know why?

Also, back then directories and site rentals were all the rage, but it seems to have died off now for whatever reason. I noticed a couple of big threads started by John Durham (who's now banned, was he shifty?) but apart from that people seem to be giving up on that model. Now it seems like every second post is on cold calling and selling, and not so much about how to help clients.

I'm not saying it's now better/worse or you guys getting amongst things now are in anyway inferior to the guys I was familiar with - but does anyone care to fill me in?
#changed #things
  • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
    Wish I could fill ya in but I am newbie myself. Filtered in from youtubeville after looking up how in the heck I am supposed to get the word out about my business with telemarketing and got swindled in by Jason Kanigan (ha! I kid).

    Pretty much Jason Kanigan, Claude Whitacare, Ewen, and a few others are putting out REALLY good information around here, not so much WSO this or that or even specific systems. Just some consistent things that if you read you sort of find out what their systems are about or even cobble together a myriad of insights and organize them into something that works for you.

    Edit: Oh I suppose you could look them up and pay them for some of their insights too.
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    • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
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      ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
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      • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
        Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

        Thanks, I think I'll give the war room a miss for the time being, this is the main forum I am interested in.
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        • Profile picture of the author thriftgirl62
          Originally Posted by XponentSYS View Post

          Andrew Cavanah as well as some of the others you've mentioned are still around.

          As of late, some of my favorite members here are Bob Ross (Jake), Ewin Mack, Eddie Spangler, Jason Kanigan, Claud Whitaker, TheBigBee and there are a few others I like, too.

          Watch anything from those mentioned above.

          John Durham isn't a fixture anymore. As an adult, he made the choice to leverage the brand he built here as a tool to defraud scores of members via a series of "cut and run" coaching programs. He's since been banned here and is broke (arguably always has been).
          Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

          WOW. Good to know although not much of a surprise there. Definitely join the WarRoom.
          Nice to be validated. Thanks!
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          When you make at least $100+ per month, we split the profit 80/20 and YOU get the 80% Until then, you keep 100% and I'll help you drive traffic, get backlinks and put the domain in your name too!
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    • Profile picture of the author gamletk72
      Same here, but I am getting the hang of it, so we'll share ideas as we go along, not to worry
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  • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
    Andrew Cavanah as well as some of the others you've mentioned are still around.

    As of late, some of my favorite members here are Bob Ross (Jake), Ewin Mack, Eddie Spangler, Jason Kanigan, Claud Whitaker, TheBigBee and there are a few others I like, too.

    Watch anything from those mentioned above.

    John Durham isn't a fixture anymore. As an adult, he made the choice to leverage the brand he built here as a tool to defraud scores of members via a series of "cut and run" coaching programs. He's since been banned here and is broke (arguably always has been).
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  • Profile picture of the author Tam Chancellor
    Yes, the offline marketing forum has changed. I also got burned by AP, but I miss those offline threads.I learned enough (or remembered enough) to go out on my own. I rarely lurk here because of the new focus and only started coming back because of WF purchase news.

    AP showed up on a couple of other forums. He was eventually outed and banned. The internet is global, but it's really a small world. I'm sure he's around somewhere laying the groundwork to scam others.

    I recently stumbled upon the Bob Ross 9x12 postcard system. I think I found it while doing a search for something else. It makes me sad that I wasn't around when the thread was live. I am thinking of using it as a new profit center and as a foot in the door for my consulting work.
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    • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
      Originally Posted by Tam Chancellor View Post

      Yes, the offline marketing forum has changed. I also got burned by AP, but I miss those offline threads.I learned enough (or remembered enough) to go out on my own. I rarely lurk here because of the new focus and only started coming back because of WF purchase news.

      AP showed up on a couple of other forums. He was eventually outed and banned. The internet is global, but it's really a small world. I'm sure he's around somewhere laying the groundwork to scam others.
      A story similar to my own! Your first paragraph sounds very familiar.

      It's funny, even after getting 'burned' by AP, his stuff did give a great kick start and he is the one name that sticks in my mind for introducing me to a ton of concepts that have been worthwhile since.

      Not defending what he did at all, but I half think myself lucky that the time I got scammed, I at least gained something out of it all.
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      • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
        Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

        A story similar to my own! Your first paragraph sounds very familiar.

        It's funny, even after getting 'burned' by AP, his stuff did give a great kick start and he is the one name that sticks in my mind for introducing me to a ton of concepts that have been worthwhile since.

        Not defending what he did at all, but I half think myself lucky that the time I got scammed, I at least gained something out of it all.
        It's a shame really. Just imagine the good he could have done (and the success he could have enjoyed) if he were an individual of ethics.

        But the reality is some people operate on a different plane of thought than the masses - and in cases such that of AP, are often dysfunctional at the core.
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        • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
          Originally Posted by XponentSYS View Post

          It's a shame really. Just imagine the good he could have done (and the success he could have enjoyed) if he were an individual of ethics.

          But the reality is some people operate on a different plane of thought than the masses - and in cases such that of AP, are often dysfunctional at the core.
          Too true.

          To build up a following like he did and then just blow it up has always boggled my mind (which is easily boggled mind you ... it boggles at the thought that my kick start into offline was due to a scam ... haha!)

          Wonder how much damage all that did to this sub forum? Along with Durham, who knows how many people have been turned off by a few shady operators.
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          • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
            Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

            Too true.

            To build up a following like he did and then just blow it up has always boggled my mind (which is easily boggled mind you ... it boggles at the thought that my kick start into offline was due to a scam ... haha!)

            Wonder how much damage all that did to this sub forum? Along with Durham, who knows how many people have been turned off by a few shady operators.
            I'm not sure in this case if the intent of building a brand under which to perpetrate a scam is what actually happened here..... as opposed to an attempt to build a coaching business.

            I saw the whole thing go down and from my experience, it looks more like dysfunction (caused by a disorderly personal and business life induced by dependency issues) got in the way of things.

            The intent may have been whole.... but quickly gave way to desperate deception when the aforementioned got in the way.

            As a whole, I don't see any lasting damage. People around here are pretty good at knowing "what time it is".
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            • Profile picture of the author dunkinbbb
              Originally Posted by XponentSYS View Post

              I'm not sure in this case if the intent of building a brand under which to perpetrate a scam is what actually happened here..... as opposed to an attempt to build a coaching business.

              I saw the whole thing go down and from my experience, it looks more like dysfunction (caused by a disorderly personal and business life induced by dependency issues) got in the way of things.

              The intent may have been whole.... but quickly gave way to desperate deception when the aforementioned got in the way.

              As a whole, I don't see any lasting damage. People around here are pretty good at knowing "what time it is".



              Sounds like the Jordan Belfourt defense - and Bernie Madoff and . . .

              never meant to defraud . . . things just got out of hand
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              • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
                Originally Posted by dunkinbbb View Post

                Sounds like the Jordan Belfourt defense - and Bernie Madoff and . . .

                never meant to defraud . . . things just got out of hand
                To be clear ..... not defending. I'm just stating the way I saw it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tam Chancellor
        Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

        A story similar to my own! Your first paragraph sounds very familiar.

        It's funny, even after getting 'burned' by AP, his stuff did give a great kick start and he is the one name that sticks in my mind for introducing me to a ton of concepts that have been worthwhile since.

        Not defending what he did at all, but I half think myself lucky that the time I got scammed, I at least gained something out of it all.
        I agree, but I would be the last to admit it.

        I doubt even AP would have the gall to come back and do it all again.
        I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I do know that he surfaced on two different forums.

        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

        I'm just a little tired of the same stuff all the time. I'd much rather have discussions about effectively scaling your business, treating this like a business, management techniques, fulfillment, processes, etc. but that's just me.
        I would love this type of discussion too. Michael Hines often talked about these subjects, but he always seemed to get shot down. I don't even think he posts here anymore.
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        • Profile picture of the author DABK
          It has changed. Used to be there were more discussions about structuring your business, positioning yourself, etc. How to sell is fine, but how to make a business out of the things you do is even better.
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  • It's funny how I researched a bit about AP. I had no idea who he was lol.

    Offline has definitely changed, but I wasn't here when those guys you mentioned were on here. I was just getting started during those times.

    Definitely some guys here who are strongly helping out the offline forum. Jason has been up here a lot, but I do feel like this section of the forum has slowly died down compared to a year or two ago, but it's still steadily growing back again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

    Now it seems like every second post is on cold calling and selling, and not so much about how to help clients.

    I'm not saying it's now better/worse or you guys getting amongst things now are in anyway inferior to the guys I was familiar with - but does anyone care to fill me in?
    It's funny you say every other thread is about cold calling...I don't get that feel at all. I can rationally see what you're saying from appearances; however, people are just dipping in very shallowly, wanting the easy answer...not realizing it's a complex topic and they're not going to learn it overnight. I rarely find questions I can get into detail answering. It's all surface stuff. We've definitely had times in the past 2 years where discussions went much deeper.

    I don't think I know who AP was. Dexx is a real pro and I've even bought some of his products. We talk on FB once in awhile and he ran for city council last year.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      It's funny you say every other thread is about cold calling...I don't get that feel at all.
      I wish I could say it's funny but it's definitely true. Forums go in cycles... these are topics that go through a hot streak for a while then die out then come back to life.

      I hate it when we go through a cold calling spurt... activity is down overall, it's the same old stuff all the time and it's just boring. I'm good at cold calling, making sales is relatively easy when cold calling, but I'm definitely not passionate about it to really want to see a bunch of stupid questions and long drawn out answers that people will never apply.

      Then some newbie has massive overnight success with cold calling (or insert any trendy technique) and releases a WSO then gets called out on faking it till he makes it a couple months later.

      I'm just a little tired of the same stuff all the time. I'd much rather have discussions about effectively scaling your business, treating this like a business, management techniques, fulfillment, processes, etc. but that's just me. I know you're passionate about sales and cold calling, way more than me so I get why you like it lol. I'm passionate about SEO... but stopped going to the SEO forum because of the same reason.... stupid questions that are the same today as they were 4 years ago, with the same cycles that happen in here. Blah... I'm crabby.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I wish I could say it's funny but it's definitely true. Forums go in cycles... these are topics that go through a hot streak for a while then die out then come back to life.

        I hate it when we go through a cold calling spurt... activity is down overall, it's the same old stuff all the time and it's just boring. I'm good at cold calling, making sales is relatively easy when cold calling, but I'm definitely not passionate about it to really want to see a bunch of stupid questions and long drawn out answers that people will never apply.

        Then some newbie has massive overnight success with cold calling (or insert any trendy technique) and releases a WSO then gets called out on faking it till he makes it a couple months later.

        I'm just a little tired of the same stuff all the time. I'd much rather have discussions about effectively scaling your business, treating this like a business, management techniques, fulfillment, processes, etc. but that's just me. I know you're passionate about sales and cold calling, way more than me so I get why you like it lol. I'm passionate about SEO... but stopped going to the SEO forum because of the same reason.... stupid questions that are the same today as they were 4 years ago, with the same cycles that happen in here. Blah... I'm crabby.
        Again, have you even looked at what I've been sharing.

        Exhibit A -- not about selling.

        Exhibit B -- not about selling, either.

        And if they can't even make ONE sale, how the hell can they "scale their business"??!

        A post like yours really takes the piss out of me. I share and share and share, and then someone like you has to come along and devalue the hell out of it.

        And maybe you've forgotten, but I've been a senior executive in the real world with big companies. Not to mention I have a real education--not one but several pieces of paper to hang on the wall. I have a TON of management experience--but that's not what this forum wants or needs. If it was, they'd be asking questions about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          Again, have you even looked at what I've been sharing.

          Exhibit A.

          Exhibit B.

          And if they can't even make ONE sale, how the hell can they "scale their business"??!

          A post like yours really takes the piss out of me.

          And maybe you've forgotten, but I've been a senior executive in the real world with big companies. Not to mention I have a real education--not one but several pieces of paper to hang on the wall. I have a TON of management experience--but that's not what this forum wants or needs.
          OMG... please share some more links to other things you've posted because you haven't done that nearly enough in the last couple years. No... I haven't forgotten, I don't think anyone has forgotten since you mention it all the time.

          People don't need to make sales if they can't deliver what they're selling. That's my point... everybody is worried about making sales when they don't know jack about how to deliver what they're selling.
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        • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
          Whoops.

          This got out of hand a bit!


          Let's move on, shall we? We're all passionate about our fields of expertise, I think that is pretty clear!

          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          And maybe you've forgotten, but I've been a senior executive in the real world with big companies. Not to mention I have a real education--not one but several pieces of paper to hang on the wall. I have a TON of management experience--but that's not what this forum wants or needs. If it was, they'd be asking questions about it.
          I'm obviously only new here Jason. What's your background, or can you point me in the direction where I can read about it? I reckon management is very underrated in this forum and I think it is one area iAmNameLess said he would like to see more of too.

          Management skills are useful in a lot of ways in the offline space - whether its your own business or understanding how your clients run, or can improve, theirs.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
            Terry,

            Are you AP?

            I didn't buy his stuff, so I don't care. I thought Dexx's thread was a
            good one. That was a long time ago in the world of IM.

            Things change. So do forums.

            Hope you find some things useful things here.
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            • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
              Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

              Terry,

              Are you AP?

              I didn't buy his stuff, so I don't care. I thought Dexx's thread was a
              good one. That was a long time ago in the world of IM.

              Things change. So do forums.

              Hope you find some things useful things here.
              Haha .. busted.

              I doubt even AP would have the gall to come back and do it all again.

              That thread did change my life though.

              Thanks for the reply.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                Yes, the AP thread itself was better than any WSO I've ever seen.

                It was a true road-map to improving the performance of just about
                any offline business.

                I borrowed a few things from it. I also added to it.

                If they hadn't locked the thread, I'm sure it'd still be going.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
            Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

            Whoops.

            This got out of hand a bit!


            Let's move on, shall we? We're all passionate about our fields of expertise, I think that is pretty clear!



            I'm obviously only new here Jason. What's your background, or can you point me in the direction where I can read about it? I reckon management is very underrated in this forum and I think it is one area iAmNameLess said he would like to see more of too.

            Management skills are useful in a lot of ways in the offline space - whether its your own business or understanding how your clients run, or can improve, theirs.
            "Passion" isn't the issue. It's what's being said, how it's being said, and the fact that he comes in here and complains every so often...and then leaves, contributing nothing of value. Wasn't that way two years ago.

            As for backgrounds, people have signatures.
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            • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
              Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

              "Passion" isn't the issue. It's what's being said, how it's being said, and the fact that he comes in here and complains every so often...and then leaves, contributing nothing of value. Wasn't that way two years ago.

              As for backgrounds, people have signatures.
              Ouch ... ok.
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    • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      It's funny you say every other thread is about cold calling...I don't get that feel at all. I can rationally see what you're saying from appearances; however, people are just dipping in very shallowly, wanting the easy answer...not realizing it's a complex topic and they're not going to learn it overnight. I rarely find questions I can get into detail answering. It's all surface stuff. We've definitely had times in the past 2 years where discussions went much deeper.

      I don't think I know who AP was. Dexx is a real pro and I've even bought some of his products. We talk on FB once in awhile and he ran for city council last year.
      Maybe it's hard to see for those who have been in amongst things ongoing, but that's just the impression I've got in the past week or two I've been around. As discussed above, it could well just be a cycle. That's not to say the cold calling stuff isn't valuable, mind you.

      Good to hear Dexx is going well, he always struck me as a very upstanding guy. A quick read of the monster offline thread in the main forum will show you AP (if you even care) - search by replies and you can't miss it.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Besides design, and the fact freelancer now owns WF, not much has changed at all.

    You still get scammers, product creators who position themselves, contributors who contribute to build their personal brand, idiots, newbies eager to learn by spending money, newbies eager to learn by spending countless hours reading threads by people who've never done anything in real life, just spouting out theory... affiliate offers out the ass, crappy products put out with rehashed material found in non-paid parts of the forum from 3 years ago... recycled and regurgitated techniques that somehow become "cutting edge"... a bunch of buzz words that essentially mean "marketing" but much sexier.

    Good Ole WF... Same old stuff.

    Really though, the quality of the forum in my opinion has steadily declined and probably will continue. This forum has changed from how to be able to help offline businesses with marketing, to how to pick up the phone and sell to businesses. Helping businesses "solve a problem", is just a line used nowadays to teach you how to sell to them, not how to actually solve a problem. I have nothing against cold calling, and I believe cold calling can be an effective way to get sales but it's not the only method out there. We're just going through another cold calling trend, it happens multiple times through the year... cold calling.. direct mailing.. cold walking... networking groups...linkedin...ppc.... facebook, etc. etc. etc. The forum goes through cycles.

    Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based).

    I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Besides design, and the fact freelancer now owns WF, not much has changed at all.

      You still get scammers, product creators who position themselves, contributors who contribute to build their personal brand, idiots, newbies eager to learn by spending money, newbies eager to learn by spending countless hours reading threads by people who've never done anything in real life, just spouting out theory... affiliate offers out the ass, crappy products put out with rehashed material found in non-paid parts of the forum from 3 years ago... recycled and regurgitated techniques that somehow become "cutting edge"... a bunch of buzz words that essentially mean "marketing" but much sexier.

      Good Ole WF... Same old stuff.

      Really though, the quality of the forum in my opinion has steadily declined and probably will continue. This forum has changed from how to be able to help offline businesses with marketing, to how to pick up the phone and sell to businesses. Helping businesses "solve a problem", is just a line used nowadays to teach you how to sell to them, not how to actually solve a problem. I have nothing against cold calling, and I believe cold calling can be an effective way to get sales but it's not the only method out there. We're just going through another cold calling trend, it happens multiple times through the year... cold calling.. direct mailing.. cold walking... networking groups...linkedin...ppc.... facebook, etc. etc. etc. The forum goes through cycles.

      Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based).

      I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale.
      Well, **** It, Nathan; I might as well quit helping then. Have you even looked at the stuff I've been sharing?

      I gotta tell ya, *I* don't think it's a "cold calling trend." I hardly sell anything here.

      And if you think it's crap, why are you here?
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        Well, **** It, Nathan; I might as well quit helping then. Have you even looked at the stuff I've been sharing?

        I gotta tell ya, *I* don't think it's a "cold calling trend." I hardly sell anything here.

        And if you think it's crap, why are you here?
        Are you really getting overly sensitive on me? If you think you might as well quit helping because I said what I feel, and it hurts your feelings then maybe you should. LOL

        I wasn't singling you out, and it's nothing personal but what you think or feel doesn't matter when we're discussing reality. The reality and statistics show that cold calling topics, are a trend that pops up a few times during the year that is statistically above the average posts about the topic through the entire year as a whole... the same thing happens with direct mail and other stuff. It's a forum... it's been like this for years and other forums are the same when it comes to that.

        That's the great thing about math.... the numbers remain the same whether we agree or disagree.

        As for reading your stuff... no.. I haven't. I'm sure it's really great stuff but I really don't care.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Are you really getting overly sensitive on me? If you think you might as well quit helping because I said what I feel, and it hurts your feelings then maybe you should. LOL

          I wasn't singling you out, and it's nothing personal but what you think or feel doesn't matter when we're discussing reality. The reality and statistics show that cold calling topics, are a trend that pops up a few times during the year that is statistically above the average posts about the topic through the entire year as a whole... the same thing happens with direct mail and other stuff. It's a forum... it's been like this for years and other forums are the same when it comes to that.

          That's the great thing about math.... the numbers remain the same whether we agree or disagree.

          As for reading your stuff... no.. I haven't. I'm sure it's really great stuff but I really don't care.
          So...how can you say what's being shared here if you aren't reading it?

          If this place sucks so bad for you and you aren't even reading the content, why are you here again??

          Talk about getting too big for your britches.

          If you've got some great ideas about growth and management, why don't you share them??
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

            So...how can you say what's being shared here if you aren't reading it?

            I'm done with you.

            If this place sucks so bad for you and you aren't even reading the content, why are you here again??

            Talk about getting too big for your britches.

            If you've got some great ideas about growth and management, why don't you share them??
            I said the quality of the offline forum has declined.. and it has overall, regardless of what godly information you're sharing. Never said this place sucks.. I do read content, just not much of yours since it always seems to be basically the same.

            Not too big for my britches bud, but I'm not one to just pat everyone on the back and say good job, keep it up, if I really couldn't care less.

            You should probably chill out before someone asks if you need some midol.
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    • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Really though, the quality of the forum in my opinion has steadily declined and probably will continue. This forum has changed from how to be able to help offline businesses with marketing, to how to pick up the phone and sell to businesses. Helping businesses "solve a problem", is just a line used nowadays to teach you how to sell to them, not how to actually solve a problem. I have nothing against cold calling, and I believe cold calling can be an effective way to get sales but it's not the only method out there. We're just going through another cold calling trend, it happens multiple times through the year... cold calling.. direct mailing.. cold walking... networking groups...linkedin...ppc.... facebook, etc. etc. etc. The forum goes through cycles.

      Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based).

      I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale.
      Gotta say I agree with this. Selling is no doubt important, but delivery, over-delivery, and confidence in your product is vital and the confidence in knowing you can kill your potential clients expectations can only boost your selling ability.
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    • Profile picture of the author Underground
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Besides design, and the fact freelancer now owns WF, not much has changed at all.

      You still get scammers, product creators who position themselves, contributors who contribute to build their personal brand, idiots, newbies eager to learn by spending money, newbies eager to learn by spending countless hours reading threads by people who've never done anything in real life, just spouting out theory... affiliate offers out the ass, crappy products put out with rehashed material found in non-paid parts of the forum from 3 years ago... recycled and regurgitated techniques that somehow become "cutting edge"... a bunch of buzz words that essentially mean "marketing" but much sexier.

      Good Ole WF... Same old stuff.

      Really though, the quality of the forum in my opinion has steadily declined and probably will continue. This forum has changed from how to be able to help offline businesses with marketing, to how to pick up the phone and sell to businesses. Helping businesses "solve a problem", is just a line used nowadays to teach you how to sell to them, not how to actually solve a problem. I have nothing against cold calling, and I believe cold calling can be an effective way to get sales but it's not the only method out there. We're just going through another cold calling trend, it happens multiple times through the year... cold calling.. direct mailing.. cold walking... networking groups...linkedin...ppc.... facebook, etc. etc. etc. The forum goes through cycles.

      Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based).

      I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale.

      Don't know why, but I always had you down as one of the people you refer to who just want to sell, sell, sell any old shit they think my turn them a quick buck. Maybe because you're very driven about getting sales. Obviously I was wrong. I wish this place was more about how to offer great service and be a professional. Your post was spot on.

      There are pro's who post gems here on how to do that, but really do they get much interest since they'll probably make the 'opportunity seekers' (who make up the bulk of the place) eyes glaze over because it requires a bit more effort than they'd like.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        I wish this place was more about how to offer great service and be a professional.
        Here's your opportunity. Post something about "how to offer great service and be a professional".
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        • Profile picture of the author Underground
          Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

          Here's your opportunity. Post something about "how to offer great service and be a professional".
          I get your point about people should do that too instead of expecting others to all the time, but your post here is going to an extreme to the point of silliness. No one is saying everyone should be only posting case studies and informative posts 100% and this place can't be used for other discussions.

          It's your opportunity to do that too don't forget, rather than go around laying down demands on what people should post.

          I've tried helpful threads in the past about how to do things proper on IM related forums and learned that it's not wise to reveal your exact business if your concept is unique as you''ll have a 100 mindless, bottom-feeding lemmings sh*ting in your pool and ripping you off and badly applying your stuff and devaluing your stuff while robbing you of your USP and competitive advantage. I definitely will not be opening myself to that.

          When I have proper generalized business case studies to post though that I'm happy are statistically significant enough to warrant passing on, or something of value to post, I will.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
            Good enough. I'm not complaining. Just sayin' if there's something that you want to see more of here than please do. I wish there was there were a way to display on the main page, some of the great threads and posts that have been made in this section . Maybe with the new owners that will change.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Underground View Post

        Don't know why, but I always had you down as one of the people you refer to who just want to sell, sell, sell any old shit they think my turn them a quick buck. Maybe because you're very driven about getting sales. Obviously I was wrong. I wish this place was more about how to offer great service and be a professional. Your post was spot on.

        There are pro's who post gems here on how to do that, but really do they get much interest since they'll probably make the 'opportunity seekers' (who make up the bulk of the place) eyes glaze over because it requires a bit more effort than they'd like.
        I've never really considered myself a good sales person. I'd consider myself good on the phone, and I'm able to sell things but there are sales people out there that can sell products or services they don't believe in and are excellent at it. I'm not one of those people. I believe in keeping it as simple as possible. There are some more advanced things I've worked in here and there but overall I like to keep it simple.

        I think the longer you do this, what you need, what you do, your strategies and outlooks change. We all change, depending on where we are at the time.

        I've had amazing runs of sales, awesome months, and maybe that was why I seemed more driven by sales. However, I quickly found out that sales can ruin your business, reputation and name when you can't deliver, or can't deliver fast enough, or your support is lacking, communication is lacking or if you outsource, your management of the outsourcers is lacking.

        I appreciate the depth that comes with running a business. You really do never stop learning.

        We all know sales are important... but if you're just trying to learn to sell, you're light years behind. Once you have the sales, you have a ton of other hurdles to jump. It's almost unbelievable the amount of adversity you have to overcome at different points in business. Sales is just one small part of that... the very first step I suppose.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    I apologize Jason... Obviously my post that wasn't even about you but a generalization really struck a nerve.

    I should make this clear though, so you know and others know. I don't really care what you post, it doesn't interest me (generally). That's not meant to be offensive, I'm just not interested. I've liked some stuff you've posted, I like stuff that Claude has posted, Andrew, Chris Rivers, etc. but lets face it... I'm not the person you're trying to appeal to or help.

    The people that interest me, are the ones that are getting started and already have some success and they're trying to figure out processes, strategies for scaling, improving operations, etc. That is what interests me. People that are learning advanced SEO and have questions that are extremely in depth... that's what I like.

    Just because I don't log into WF to follow you around and read your posts and the link drops you make, doesn't mean I don't think what you have to say is valuable. It just means that it isn't what I'm interested in. Take it how you want
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
    Characterize me as a Kanigan groupie if you must but that is simply a product of developing a business first then attempting to figure out how to sell. That is, I had all the friggin fulfillment ready to go but no clue how to generate a sale.

    Just from my little perspective: being able to effectively communicate, break thru to prospective customers is everyhing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
    Nutshell: without sales, you have no business.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
      Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

      Nutshell: without sales, you have no business.
      In my case I just had a boat load of intellectual property with many of the business systems in place. But absolutely agree with you: a business with no customers is not really a business -- its just a bunch of stuff you created sitting there.
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  • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
    Ok, I'll attempt to redress the balance a little. I've been around here for some time and because I took action around the time of the original AK Offline Gold thread; I've been doing this stuff full time for over 5 years.

    So this is about fullfillment ...

    An example of the things I do for one particular client, to justify charging $525 a day for my services.

    It's not pretty, there is no magic, I operate on my own, from home, I don't outsource, and I'm not in the same league as iamnameless or other prominent contributors to this forum.

    But it's real.

    The client contacted me by filling in an enquiry form on my website around 18 months ago,

    Here's the exact text:

    "I am interested in increasing our SEO position in various markets , is this something you coudl help us with ?
    I am also potentially interested in looking at other web based marketing ideas"

    We talked on the phone and had a long discussion, almost an argument actually, about the work that needed doing. At one point in the discussion the client said "you sound like you don't want the work, is that the case?"

    I explained that I was busy, and that I knew that I could help her, but that what she thought she wanted, wasn't what she needed.

    Positioning I guess.

    I told her that I'd need 2 days a month to work on her business and that the cost would be $1,050 per month.

    She told me that her budget would only stretch to $525 a month

    So we agreed on that, with the proviso from me that it would take twice as long to get results.

    The first step was for me to request admin access to her Google Analytics account, so I could benchmark where she was in terms of traffic and stats.

    In my request email, I also pointed out that the "home" nav link on her site pointed to a duplicate home page with a index.php extension, and suggested that she have her web guy fix that.

    I also took a look at the site backlinks in AHREFS and highlighted that her previous seo company had over optimised for certain search terms with low level links.

    And I fired up SEO Powersuite Rank Tracker and ran a rankings report.

    After this initial research, my proposal was to produce a blueprint, benchmarking where "we" were now, the opportunity available, what work was required, and timescales/cost to do the work. I charged $1,050 for the blueprint.

    Fulfillment:

    1) I identified all the 404 errors on her site (via the seo report facility in ahrefs) and liaised with her web guy to get them 301 redirected.

    2) I set up adwords campaings for a specific service that she offered. It was a fight to get her to agree to this as she'd run adwords in the past with minimal results. I checked out the previous campaign in her adwords account and told her why it hadn't worked in the past. She agreed a $300pm budget for adwords. The monthly spend is now approaching $500 because it works.

    3) She buys traffic by advertising on other websites. Every time a renewal invoice comes in (2 or 3 times a month), she runs it by me. I get the traffic stats from Google Analytics, put a value on it by referencing traffic costs from ppc, visit the site in question to assess it, then make a recommendation to her.

    4) I identified the primary traffic keyword (1,900 exact month searches per month) and built a couple of high quality, high pr links)

    5) I added another Adwords campaign for a seasonal event

    6) The site already had a "request a brochure" (actually, numerous brochures) function. This was generating approx 150 requests per month. Each request was being dealt with manually by a member of staff. In a 3 hour meeting, I convinced her to set up an Aweber account so that we could automate the reply and delivery of the pdf. That saved about 25 hours a month of manual labour.

    7) I took over the running of her main email list in a different autoresponder.

    8) Her web guy retired, so I liaised with his replacement on updates that he proposed. Typically, changes to the site have been made without thinking about seo consequences, page name changes for example. I catch these oversights and recommend solutions.

    9) I compiled an excel spreadsheet for downloads and subscribers and update it monthly.

    10) Periodically, I'll visit the website, fill in forms etc. to check that things work and to get feedback as a site user. Yesterday, for example, I noticed that the way that the mob version of the site had been set up was poor. I won't go into details, that's a post in itself. I pointed this out and suggested a solution.

    That's a lot of work for $525 a month

    This business owner is sharp, successful and really pushes the limits. When we meet, about twice a year, our discussions can get quite heated, but we always get to an agreed plan of action. I respect her, she respects me.

    But, there's more that we can do to improve her marketing.

    So yesterday, along with my suggestion about the mobile site, I also suggested that we can take this to a higher level. She asked how much? I quoted her $2,100 a month via email, at midnight, then I went to bed.

    There was no reply in my inbox this morning

    Then a couple of hours ago, this came in ...

    "Hi tony , I am afraid that my marketing budget really won't stretch that far ....I could go up to £1k. Per month at a push ???

    I would love to work with you a bit more if possible"

    I haven't replied yet, but I will accept the increase in my monthly fee to $1,500 from $525 and I'm prepared to deliver whatever it takes to justify that increase. I know that I will be pushed hard.

    Fairly soon, I'll be asking her for referrals, what do you think my chances are?

    Doing this stuff isn't technically difficult, it just requires that you actually care about delivering value to your clients.

    Yes, experience helps, but anyone, like me, can build the required experience by getting out there and doing it. I started 5 years ago by building websites for local businesses and progressed from there.

    Look, I'm not sat on a beach, pushing buttons and watching money dump into my paypal account, but who is?

    Tony
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    • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
      Originally Posted by tonyscott View Post

      So yesterday, along with my suggestion about the mobile site, I also suggested that we can take this to a higher level. She asked how much? I quoted her $2,100 a month via email, at midnight, then I went to bed.

      There was no reply in my inbox this morning

      Then a couple of hours ago, this came in ...

      "Hi tony , I am afraid that my marketing budget really won't stretch that far ....I could go up to £1k. Per month at a push ???

      I would love to work with you a bit more if possible"

      I haven't replied yet, but I will accept the increase in my monthly fee to $1,500 from $525 and I'm prepared to deliver whatever it takes to justify that increase. I know that I will be pushed hard.


      Tony
      Hey Tony, kudos for posting , however I don't get this part, if what you're doing is working and working well and reading between the lines you appear to suggest it is, then why hasn't her marketing budget been able to be increased significantly more than the 100% considering it wasn't much of a marketing budget in the first place . Surely what you're doing is bringing in more than an extra £500 a month to her business by now and whilst she wouldn't reinvest the whole lot I think she's trying to yank your chain with her 'my budget wont stretch' BS or she doesn't fully appreciate the profits your marketing has provided for her business?
      Signature

      Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
    Hi Mike,

    I get your point.

    I'm happy with the deal though. I knew she'd come back with a lower offer, so I inflated my asking price to take account of that.

    And I like working with her, she's engaged in the process. I find that preferable to working with companies who can, and do pay me more, but have little involvement beyond writing the cheques and occasionally asking for an update.

    Tony
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      "Passion" isn't the issue. It's what's being said, how it's being said, and the fact that he comes in here and complains every so often...and then leaves, contributing nothing of value. Wasn't that way two years ago.

      As for backgrounds, people have signatures.
      My last apology was a little sarcastic... But let me address this and give you another one.

      As far as complaining, weren't you complaining that not enough people "Thanked you" for your contributions? Weren't you complaining that someone asked you to transcribe something? I think we can all complain if we want but don't be a hypocrite.. You're a grown man... If I come in and say what I think to be true, and you consider it complaining then what are you doing when you throw a fit over not getting enough "thanks"?

      As for contributing nothing of value... I don't think you even believe that for a second.

      The fact is, I know you contribute.. you know I've contributed. I am sorry that you felt my original post was a personal attack on you, it really wasn't intended as such, it was just very matter of fact. Once I saw you took it personally once again, then I made some personal statements that I probably shouldn't have. For that, I do sincerely apologize, it was unnecessary, but it's also unnecessary to be so defensive about my statements.

      You disagree that we're in a cold calling trend right now, but statistically speaking... we are. I'm not saying cold calling is a trend, but yes, it is a trend on this forum right now because forums go in cycles. It's not really up for debate... you can't debate statistics. I think you take that personally because that is your bread and butter, nobody is dissing it or saying it isn't relevant, just the fact that it is trending right now... just like direct mail does, linked in, PPC, networking and other topics. SMS used to be a popular trend and still comes in cycles. This is how a forum works... there's no need to take that personally. There's no need to think that it's funny... the numbers don't lie.

      I stand by my original post 100%... and I think it is utterly ridiculous to be offended by that. Seriously... there is no need to be getting emotional over it.

      You really shouldn't care what I think about anyone's contributions. You have your own fan club, and while I do respect what you do, I will never be a part of it. This is not a personal attack, but I don't need to pat you on the back so you feel some sort of validation, you should feel that anyway from helping others.

      Jason, I can respect you without always agreeing with you or following you around reading everything you post. At no point have I ever said what you do, say, post, whatever, is worthless. There's value in it for sure, and while I do think you go very in depth and sometimes what you do say DOES interest me, I'm different than you. I have different outlooks, different things that interest me, different opinions and definitely a different personality.

      I obviously know that sales are important... I believe you can't survive without sales... but I also believe that too many people fail because they overcomplicate things. I think anyone can make sales... it's easy. That's the easiest part of everything in my opinion and I don't have the training, knowledge, and probably the skills you do when it comes to selling... but I can make sales.

      Do you know what separates the true professionals from people that are almost professionals? Let's use MMA for an example.... it isn't a natural talent that is the separation... it is the basics. Those that are professionals do the basic things very very well. In internet marketing... it is the basics that make the biggest impact... same with offline marketing. It's not complicated.

      You dive deep in those areas because that's your specialty and it appeals to certain people. I'm just not one of them. That does not mean I don't think you're qualified, or that I think you're just trying to create authority for yourself or push some crap product. I don't believe that at all. I respect your knowledge and many other peoples knowledge but it doesn't mean I have to be interested in everything you say.

      Overall... my belief is if you can't sell... and you can't deliver what you can't sell, then you have no business in being in business.

      I never meant to offend you... at first. And while I do apologize, I must say that I think it's a bit crazy for you to have been offended by my original post... later on I can't blame you but really, it was nothing about you.

      (EDIT: I realize I suck at apologizing... I don't get much practice, so please don't get offended by the apology lol, that's the best I can do.)
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        Overall... my belief is if you can't sell... and you can't deliver what you can't sell, then you have no business in being in business.
        If you really believe that ... then you are going to be richer - faster - then most
        people.
        Signature

        Selling Ain't for Sissies
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    • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
      Originally Posted by tonyscott View Post

      Hi Mike,

      I get your point.

      I'm happy with the deal though. I knew she'd come back with a lower offer, so I inflated my asking price to take account of that.

      And I like working with her, she's engaged in the process. I find that preferable to working with companies who can, and do pay me more, but have little involvement beyond writing the cheques and occasionally asking for an update.

      Tony
      Yeh I can see your reasoning for sure Tony, I got some who are engaged and its great, I got others who are engaged and a PITA ;-) then I got ones who like you say just write the cheques and leave me alone to get them results, personally I prefer the latter ones
      but totally get that others would prefer your type of client .

      Nice share mate keep it going.
      Signature

      Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author joecarson1
    Interesting comments here.......

    I think the Warrior Forum needs a "Sales Systems-Techniques-Experiences forum and if it did then allot of issues noted in this thread would be cleared up.

    We really need to split the conversations of "fulfillment" and "sales" into two different forums.

    Then we could all stay on topic vs. battling each other, as sometimes happens,

    How do we send a message to the powers that be to simply do this?
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by joecarson1 View Post

      Interesting comments here.......

      I think the Warrior Forum needs a "Sales Systems-Techniques-Experiences forum and if it did then allot of issues noted in this thread would be cleared up.

      We really need to split the conversations of "fulfillment" and "sales" into two different forums.

      Then we could all stay on topic vs. battling each other, as sometimes happens,

      How do we send a message to the powers that be to simply do this?
      Wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, but I think no matter which topic you like more, you can still learn a lot from differing views.

      The problem when a forum adds other sub forums, or even main forums, is that it kills activity overall.
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      • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        The problem when a forum adds other sub forums, or even main forums, is that it kills activity overall.
        I agree with this too.

        Thanks to everyone who chimed in to bring me up to speed somewhat and sorry for the can of worms I seemed to open!
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

          I agree with this too.

          Thanks to everyone who chimed in to bring me up to speed somewhat and sorry for the can of worms I seemed to open!
          It's fine; Nameless PMed me like a gent and we discussed it. He got where I was coming from when I explained, and I see his point.

          I also agree chopping the forum up is a bad idea.

          Imagine having a bunch of ultra-categorized file folders for every kind of receipt or record.

          Contrast with one big fat file.

          Which is more likely to result in you 'losing' information (misfiled)?

          I was originally High "C" in the DISC profile, supposed to like being really organized (shifted to a D in the past several years, and talked to the DISC people about it), but there are definitely diminishing returns.

          For everyone who thanked Nameless for his post up at the top (#15) where he said the forum needed more management/growth-type posts...where are you? Let's see you contribute something. If you want the forum topics to change, you have to change them. I've been writing about these kinds of topics lately. But IMO it goes over the heads of just about everybody, and the questions that keep getting asked are not on those subjects.
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  • I just want this forum to stay as it is. It has already changed in the last few weeks. I think it should stay as it is and just continue to Improve without having to make massive changes.

    Glad things worked out between Jason and iAmNameLess.

    Best of luck to everyone getting into the offline marketing world. Let's allow for this forum to grow.
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  • Profile picture of the author themusiccoach
    @JasonKanigan man you really are an asset to this forum. A true doer and walker and talking only to call attention to action. I am willing to bet that as a whole the industry has got smarter because it is is very difficult to carry secrets and not get caught. Of course, their are shell games to found on every corner but you think your cable co and cell phone are not robbing you openly under the guise of 'service fees" and yet when a person flakes out it is emblematic of something


    Come on.

    Buyer BE WHERE?
    Signature

    Peace And Possibilities,

    Kyle O -
    Prinicipal , Student, and Teacher
    The Web Traffic School

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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    I agree with IAM on what would be nice to see here on this forum along with the sales stuff.

    Never see case studies, never really see someone giving a specific example of a client they have and saying what theyre going to do and asking for more ideas (Of course I don't mean giving business names/ URLS etc but I don't know it seems a lot of people are pigeon holing their clients into services that they offer rather than creating solution specific to each clients needs.

    One of the main talking points I bring up with prospects/ clients is how many new clients do you want/ can you realistically handle per month ?
    Signature

    Mike

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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

      I agree with IAM on what would be nice to see here on this forum along with the sales stuff.

      Never see case studies, never really see someone giving a specific example of a client they have and saying what theyre going to do and asking for more ideas (Of course I don't mean giving business names/ URLS etc but I don't know it seems a lot of people are pigeon holing their clients into services that they offer rather than creating solution specific to each clients needs.

      One of the main talking points I bring up with prospects/ clients is how many new clients do you want/ can you realistically handle per month ?
      I don't see how to do this without it being self-promotion. Unless the question is asked directly, like it was recently in the Copywriting section; then you're responding to a specific question.
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      • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        I don't see how to do this without it being self-promotion. Unless the question is asked directly, like it was recently in the Copywriting section; then you're responding to a specific question.
        Ok, I'll bite Jason

        I like your posts, I read most of them and having done more than a little cold calling/door knocking myself, it's clear that you're an expert in your field.

        The reality however is than any post is a self promotion of sorts. If you contribute anything of value, how can it not be?

        Questions effectively were being asked:

        "Now it seems like every second post is on cold calling and selling, and not so much about how to help clients."

        "Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based)."

        "I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale."

        And I tend to agree, what's the point in making a sale if you don't know what to deliver. You can't outsource talking to a client face to face. You can't outsource understanding their problems. You can't outsource sussing out what they need to do for the good of their business, then persuading them to pay you to do it.

        It's worth remembering that the offline forum started as a response to Andrew Cavenagh's thread in 2008 about the opportunity that exists for online marketers to make money, helping offline businesses with their marketing.

        That was all about talking to business owners 1 on 1

        It wasn't about teaching people to be cold callers

        There are many ways to get in front of businesses and personally, cold calling would be right at the bottom of my list.

        Why?

        Well it's poor positioning

        If you're ringing up offline businesses, with whom you have no relationship, trying to sell them on how you can help them with their online marketing, there's a disconnect ...

        Because fairly obviously, you (not you personally) can't do it for yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be cold calling in the first place ...

        See what I mean

        So yes, personally, though I value and appreciate your prolific contributions, I'd like to see a return to the origins of this forum.

        Ideas and case studies about how we can help offilne businesses take advantage of this new industrial revolution, whilst getting well paid for it.

        It's not a difficult thing to do, compared to affiliate marketing for example, you just have to genuinely care about delivering value.

        Tony
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by tonyscott View Post

          Ok, I'll bite Jason

          I like your posts, I read most of them and having done more than a little cold calling/door knocking myself, it's clear that you're an expert in your field.

          The reality however is than any post is a self promotion of sorts. If you contribute anything of value, how can it not be?

          Questions effectively were being asked:

          "Now it seems like every second post is on cold calling and selling, and not so much about how to help clients."

          "Too many people here get caught up with selling, and different strategies to get the sale that they often only use one strategy for selling with no focus on the delivery of whatever they're selling (especially if it is service based)."

          "I think the forum would be much better off if it stopped being about how to get your first sale, and moved towards how to deliver on your first sale."

          And I tend to agree, what's the point in making a sale if you don't know what to deliver. You can't outsource talking to a client face to face. You can't outsource understanding their problems. You can't outsource sussing out what they need to do for the good of their business, then persuading them to pay you to do it.

          It's worth remembering that the offline forum started as a response to Andrew Cavenagh's thread in 2008 about the opportunity that exists for online marketers to make money, helping offline businesses with their marketing.

          That was all about talking to business owners 1 on 1

          It wasn't about teaching people to be cold callers

          There are many ways to get in front of businesses and personally, cold calling would be right at the bottom of my list.

          Why?

          Well it's poor positioning

          If you're ringing up offline businesses, with whom you have no relationship, trying to sell them on how you can help them with their online marketing, there's a disconnect ...

          Because fairly obviously, you (not you personally) can't do it for yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be cold calling in the first place ...

          See what I mean

          So yes, personally, though I value and appreciate your prolific contributions, I'd like to see a return to the origins of this forum.

          Ideas and case studies about how we can help offilne businesses take advantage of this new industrial revolution, whilst getting well paid for it.

          It's not a difficult thing to do, compared to affiliate marketing for example, you just have to genuinely care about delivering value.

          Tony
          Maybe you don't know...I teach people how to SELL. 1-on-1 or on the phone. People CHOOSE to ask about making calls. And it's not poor positioning. If you knew how to teach people how to have conversations, it's not to push for the sale; it's to FILTER to find fit. Your post is rampant with misinformation.

          PS I have never needed a "case study" to sell my services.
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    • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
      Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

      I agree with IAM on what would be nice to see here on this forum along with the sales stuff.

      Never see case studies, never really see someone giving a specific example of a client they have and saying what theyre going to do and asking for more ideas (Of course I don't mean giving business names/ URLS etc but I don't know it seems a lot of people are pigeon holing their clients into services that they offer rather than creating solution specific to each clients needs.
      This sort of stuff is always great IMO. I find sharing experiences with specific examples as one of the best ways to really grasp what we're trying to do here. Theory is great, but showing how it is applied in real life situations is invaluable.
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  • Profile picture of the author larsjorgenbr
    Is the AP thread still around to read even if it's closed?
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    • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
      Originally Posted by larsjorgenbr View Post

      Is the AP thread still around to read even if it's closed?
      I've been curious about the same thing, just didn't get around to asking. Don't recollect ever hearing about it.
      Signature

      Robin



      ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
    At risk of being pegged as AP reincarnated again () here it is

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...thly-fees.html

    Beware it's a monster!
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  • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
    FWIW Tony I liked your post. Case studies are a great way to learn and learning how to help businesses is vital - growing your business on referrals is difficult if you're not providing value to the people who will be doing the referring!

    Jason, to call it 'rampant with misinformation' is a bit harsh in the least.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by TerryLBD View Post

      FWIW Tony I liked your post. Case studies are a great way to learn and learning how to help businesses is vital - growing your business on referrals is difficult if you're not providing value to the people who will be doing the referring!

      Jason, to call it 'rampant with misinformation' is a bit harsh in the least.
      The guy is misrepresenting what I do. He's talking from a position of not knowing anything about it.

      There are MANY ways to get clients. All are effective if you know what you're doing and stick with them. I use several myself. Why don't you disparage him for saying cold calling is a garbage way to get them? If you expect me to sit back meekly, you're mistaken.

      Let me tell you something. This morning I trained a tv show producer for an hour on how to call potential sponsors & advertisers. Normally it's 2-3 hours 1-on-1 plus 2 hours of video training. He made six dials. Two appointments with highly qualified prospects. Don't tell me it doesn't work.

      Maybe when someone talks smack about what YOU do, someone who I've never heard of before, you'll be a little bit peeved.

      I have helped literally thousands of people for free on this forum. Never heard of this guy.

      And it's easy to talk about referrals...GETTING them is another thing entirely.

      You want questions on business and management? Ask some! (Nobody's asking any...because I don't think they know what to ask.)
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      • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        The guy is misrepresenting what I do. He's talking from a position of not knowing anything about it.

        Why don't you disparage him for saying cold calling is a garbage way to get them?

        You want questions on business and management? Ask some! (Nobody's asking any...because I don't think they know what to ask.)
        Hello Jason, well you've heard of me now :-)

        I do genuinely respect what you do.

        I do know something about it because I've read the majority of your posts and they are chock full of valuable information about making sales.

        Having spent 15 years working on commission only in the financial services industry, entire weekends in mass cold phone call sessions in a dedicated room where people rang a bell when they got an appointment (me included) and 3 years from 6 till 9 pm every monday night in a room with others on the phones setting appointments - I do know a little about it.

        I do know that it works ...

        I just think that this internet thing offers easier, and for the majority, less soul destroying ways to interact.

        The fact remains that this is an offline marketing forum, not a sales forum, or a business and management forum, even though I understand that you have massive credibilty in those areas.

        Maybe thats why though, people are not asking you questions about it?

        Here's what I don't get ...

        I never said "cold calling is a garbage way to get them"

        That's you putting words in my mouth

        And in my experience, paraphrasing what someone says leads to miscommunication, and that doesn't lead to closes.

        Around where I live, I'd ring you up and suggest that we talk it out over a beer - that's geographically difficult.

        I'm sure I could learn a lot from you, face to face

        With respect

        Tony
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by tonyscott View Post

          Hello Jason, well you've heard of me now :-)

          I do genuinely respect what you do.

          I do know something about it because I've read the majority of your posts and they are chock full of valuable information about making sales.

          Having spent 15 years working on commission only in the financial services industry, entire weekends in mass cold phone call sessions in a dedicated room where people rang a bell when they got an appointment (me included) and 3 years from 6 till 9 pm every monday night in a room with others on the phones setting appointments - I do know a little about it.

          I do know that it works ...

          I just think that this internet thing offers easier, and for the majority, less soul destroying ways to interact.

          The fact remains that this is an offline marketing forum, not a sales forum, or a business and management forum, even though I understand that you have massive credibilty in those areas.

          Maybe thats why though, people are not asking you questions about it?

          Here's what I don't get ...

          I never said "cold calling is a garbage way to get them"

          That's you putting words in my mouth

          And in my experience, paraphrasing what someone says leads to miscommunication, and that doesn't lead to closes.

          Around where I live, I'd ring you up and suggest that we talk it out over a beer - that's geographically difficult.

          I'm sure I could learn a lot from you, face to face

          With respect

          Tony
          Nice post. I appreciate it.

          Now check this one out. Precisely the kind of real management training content people have been asking for in this thread. The kind people pay big money for.

          It's been up all day. Nobody understands what I'm talking about in it, apparently. They've gone back to asking "how do I sell."
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
            All these jabs at different people, all this "I have to defend myself so I don't look like I was wrong" is what always seems to happen with older forums. Some people here get real defensive and it ends up not being very conducive to learning. One of the posters here, no need to mention any names, is the reincarnation of passive aggressive.

            The best threads are when someone has a problem and people offer realistic suggestions. ie the one where the guy posted a postcard that was getting horrible conversion and the cumulative knowledge of WF posters helped create a better one.
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            • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
              The best threads are when someone has a problem and people offer realistic suggestions.
              So what's your problem Robert?

              Tony
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            • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
              Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

              The best threads are when someone has a problem and people offer realistic suggestions. ie the one where the guy posted a postcard that was getting horrible conversion and the cumulative knowledge of WF posters helped create a better one.
              I agree to a certain extent however what irks me is when the persons asking the questions don't give any details of the business or their needs etc etc , they ask a one line question like 'how do I get more clients for a bridal wear store ?' and expect respondees to cover loads of possibilities and then when they do the OP's reply by saying yes we've done that, no they cant do that etc etc so wasting the respondees time

              If people could set the scene a lot better then the answers would be more specific rather than generic 'try direct mail and PPC'
              Signature

              Mike

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              • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                Mike,

                Exactly right. I call them "hit & run" inquiries.

                They provide almost no details yet they expect detailed answers.

                I responded to one here.
                http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...bjections.html

                There are members here who could help but choose not to bother, as not enough information
                is provided to make a worthwhile response. It's too bad. We'd have a ton more helpful threads

                Some of these threads fill up with "robo-posters" hoping to get their sig seen, parroting some
                spew they've heard but have no idea whether it's valid. That's the nature of a forum, unfortunately .
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  • Profile picture of the author TerryLBD
    I read a bloke thanking you for your contributions but providing his own opinion on what things he will find valuable. Not sure that is talking smack, or worth being attacked because you have never heard of him.

    Probably best to move on.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
      Hey folks, it's an open forum.

      You want to see case studies?

      Post them.

      Want to see more about "delivery"
      or "helping clients"?

      Post it.

      No one is stopping you.

      Others are going to post what they
      are interested in. If it's sales/selling than
      so be it.

      Ball's in your court.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Look I think we are getting het up on whether posts/ threads are self promotional or genuine helping, if its promotional and people end up clicking on a sig link and becoming a customer, so be it, if not, so be it, if its not promotional but people PM asking for stuff then its up to the people to sort out a business or free transaction agreement.

    We are here to learn, to teach , to share and hopefully to grow , we can learn a lot by sharing and teaching just as by asking, recently , well in fact most of the time, theres been too many people (me included) willing to say 'that's not right' to the way someone does things yet how do we know for sure, theres so many ways to achieve the same (or very similar) outcomes now .

    Ron nails it on the head so lets start one when I get enough time I will !
    Signature

    Mike

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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Not everyone got caught up in the AP hype- I saw through his act pretty much right away. But it's hard to derail a moving train.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ell-_____.html

      Things are definitely not as interesting around here. But that might be on me. I'm not really doing any Offline marketing anymore so maybe it's just not relevant to me. I'm more into finding the best recipe for Mangoritas.
      Signature
      We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

      Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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      • Profile picture of the author moodykitty
        Wow! I've been away for a couple years! I still see a few familiar faces... Iamnameless, you still have the same avatar

        I've been doing my own thing quite successfully - selling on Etsy and love it!

        I popped in because a friend who owns his own business wants his website updated and my husband decided to volunteer me... Having always done the WP sites I'm not looking for anything fancy, just wondering if there are any good, free themes out there. It's for a construction type business.

        Hope you all are well and have been successful over the years!
        Signature
        I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
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  • Yes, and still in some ways the most important part as you need sales to keep your operation going, but I wholeheartedly agree that there's much more to a successful business than just the ability to sell.
    Signature
    TEXTPEDITE

    SEND MASS TEXT MESSAGES FOR FREE!
    www.Textpedite.com
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    IAM, sales is the first step, yes and no, for me it depends what people/ businesses are providing.

    Salesforce sell , Apple sell ,but they had the service /products in place and very favourably created first and now the reputation and positioning does a chunk of the selling for them

    Of course we arent anywhere near that level but on say a localised field we could be similarly positioned and have a favourable reputation that does a lot of the selling for us eg case studies , proven results in related industries/ markets etc .

    When first starting out I think selling is needed of course , marketing too alongside the selling, else nobody will know of the start up , many businesses then rest on their laurels somewhat and throttle down their marketing/sales efforts and become 'happy with where they are now' and that's where they remain , others reinvest money/time/skills and grow , where am I going with this , I don't know , help quick someone throw in an objection to shut me up ;-)
    Signature

    Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author tonyscott
    Ok, I object Mike

    It's an unspecified objection, that you'll never be able to work out, but here's what I'm thinking ...

    I know that my marketing could be better, and I know that what you're saying has legs

    But hey, I'm making six figures and I have done for the last 20 years, I have a bunch of properties that I rent out to students, and if my business went under tomorrow, so what ...

    You've got through because you're sharp, and I like that, it reminds me of me 30 years ago

    But I have no reason to take risks, or to attempt to understand what you're talking about

    Unless you got some magic beans?

    We've all met these people

    It's a hard sell

    I just quote really big numbers and jolt them out of their comfort zone

    Because at that point it's just a game

    And it can be enjoyable, if whilst attempting to persuade, you forget about the money

    A bit like dating ...

    Tony
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  • iAmNameless is a Boss. Read his stuff
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  • Jason K also has really good info. Read his posts.

    The forum does seem less quality then a few years ago.

    I've personally found that the BEST info is buried in the longer posts of the Warriors, you can basically figure out the puzzle pieces by researching TONS!!. No single WSO or strategy is better than the other, but figuring out how the entire online / offline marketing, sales, & technology system works.....THEN finding your niche and how you can apply those strategies is the best plan for long term business success.
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