John Durham back at it....

202 replies
Checking my email this morning and I see an email from John who's attempting to set up another forum.

Apparently he's opening up some old domain that he used as forums in his past to supposedly benefit everyone who feels they "lost" out on his last two programs.

Any one else getting the emails as well?

Anyways I unsubscribed from his get response list and I'll be paying attention to make sure he honors my request to not receive any further communications from him.
#back #durham #john
  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    yeh I got it unsubscribed, funny how his girlfriend was on her last week and then we get an email from the old man himself, thought I might have had a phone call !
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    Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author umc
    I got the email too, but I'm not unsubscribing. I'm curious to see where it goes. I'm certainly not giving him any money or counting on him for anything, but if it doesn't cost me anything it isn't like everything he says is bad or wrong. His girlfriend showing up here (where'd she disappear to anyway, hmmmm) right before this does seem disingenuous, but whatever. Marketers tend to do whatever it takes to get noticed sometimes. His forum is currently just a parked domain, and he supposedly has a free report coming out that I wouldn't mind reading. In the end, he's going to have to do a lot to build any trust, and I hope that he gets things worked out for himself. I'm not going to wish him bad because I don't think he ever had bad intentions. Often our work mirrors our life, and my guess is that his life was out of control like his business ended up being. Maybe he'll get things under control and help some people. Like it or not, he did help a lot of people back in the day.
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    • Profile picture of the author wwjd
      I didn't disappear... I was just getting slammed personally and thought it best to just stay quiet and learn from the forum. Thanks UMC for your open mindedness and support. We appreciate it.
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      • Profile picture of the author nathanjacobs
        Well, I called it in the other thread.

        I'll stay subscribed. I always liked John, well until the WSO went bad but I didn't even dislike him much then. I understand things happen.

        What I don't understand though is how someone can work so hard, and gain celebrity status on here and just throw it all away. John had a valuable commodity in his reputation here, coulda earned him so much more money than he has pulled in. but now that's pretty tarnished.

        Lastly, his email also offered paid script writing. I suggest he offer a 10 minute phonecall and a free phone script tailored exactly to that persons business if they had purchased his WSO.

        That'd go a long way. Maybe on the call he might even apologize. I'd forgive him.
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        • Profile picture of the author umc
          Originally Posted by nathanjacobs View Post


          What I don't understand though is how someone can work so hard, and gain celebrity status on here and just throw it all away. John had a valuable commodity in his reputation here, coulda earned him so much more money than he has pulled in. but now that's pretty tarnished.
          What's so hard to understand? Real celebrities throw it away all the time. John was a message board celebrity, lol. People have real lives and real problems off the interwebs. People over-commit, have relationship problems, financial problems, mental and emotional issues, substance abuse problems, etc. The real lesson is not to put real trust in message board celebrities. I get feeling slighted or ripped off, and even ripping that guy that screwed you, but I don't get the confusion. We're on a message board where anyone can pretend to be anything they want. Look at me. I'm pretending to be freaking Doctor Phil. :p
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Nobody deserves a second chance... if you want a second chance you have to fight for it. I hope he fights for it and if he gets it, hopefully he's learned from it all. Hes helped a lot of people along the way. If he makes people first and money second he'd probably be more successful than before.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

              Nobody deserves a second chance... if you want a second chance you have to fight for it. I hope he fights for it and if he gets it, hopefully he's learned from it all. Hes helped a lot of people along the way. If he makes people first and money second he'd probably be more successful than before.
              Life is full of second chances, deserved or not. There wouldn't be many of us left standing if no one ever got a second chance.

              That doesn't mean you start with a clean slate, and it doesn't mean you earn trust back as easily the second time. That's what you have to fight for, and I think that's what you meant.

              Agree 100% with your last sentence. That's what's always worked for me.
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              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

              Nobody deserves a second chance... if you want a second chance you have to fight for it. I hope he fights for it and if he gets it, hopefully he's learned from it all. Hes helped a lot of people along the way. If he makes people first and money second he'd probably be more successful than before.

              That isn't it. I put money first, and I still always deliver what's promised, and more.

              It's just promising what you believe, at that moment, that you'll deliver...and then quitting when you have to produce. It isn't a moral issue, it's a weakness.

              I believe completely that John never set out to cheat anyone. I also believe that he lacks the commitment to produce, when it isn't fun anymore.

              I know a few guys like that. Great guys...will give you the shirt off their backs...and they make great money selling. But they get distracted with cheating on their wives, or gambling, or drinking, or drugs, or something else....and their commitments just aren't that important anymore.

              Very few people are truly evil, and set out to rip people off. But there are a lot of people that have grandiose dreams...and the knowledge to back it up...but don't have the discipline to deliver. I've never seen that change, either.

              In fact, most people are like that, and it is one reason most people are employees, and not owning a business.

              I have a speaker friend, in fact, my best friend....that called me the day before a speaking gig (that I set up for her), and told me she changed her mind. I asked if she was ill. She wasn't...she just wasn't in the mood to fulfill her commitment. And she wanted me to call the event planner for her, and tell them that she wasn't going to speak at their event (after they paid for rooms, equipment, and advertised her for months before)

              I ended up taking her place on stage (to compensate the person I book her with)....and then I had to give my own presentation. (her subject was unfamiliar to me, and I had to improvise most of it). I still made sales. I still made money, from her speech.

              But I'll never ask her to speak on stage with me again. Still close friends. But she taught me that she won't honor her commitments. Once is enough. I got the lesson.

              And how many times does someone take your money, and not deliver? If the answer is more than "once"...it's your fault. It's a shame. Some of John's reports were incredibly valuable. And he has a lot to offer.
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              • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                That isn't it. I put money first, and I still always deliver what's promised, and more.

                It's just promising what you believe, at that moment, that you'll deliver...and then quitting when you have to produce. It isn't a moral issue, it's a weakness.

                I believe completely that John never set out to cheat anyone. I also believe that he lacks the commitment to produce, when it isn't fun anymore.

                I know a few guys like that. Great guys...will give you the shirt off their backs...and they make great money selling. But they get distracted with cheating on their wives, or gambling, or drinking, or drugs, or something else....and their commitments just aren't that important anymore.

                Very few people are truly evil, and set out to rip people off. But there are a lot of people that have grandiose dreams...and the knowledge to back it up...but don't have the discipline to deliver. I've never seen that change, either.

                In fact, most people are like that, and it is one reason most people are employees, and not owning a business.

                I have a speaker friend, in fact, my best friend....that called me the day before a speaking gig (that I set up for her), and told me she changed her mind. I asked if she was ill. She wasn't...she just wasn't in the mood to fulfill her commitment. And she wanted me to call the event planner for her, and tell them that she wasn't going to speak at their event (after they paid for rooms, equipment, and advertised her for months before)

                I ended up taking her place on stage (to compensate the person I book her with)....and then I had to give my own presentation. (her subject was unfamiliar to me, and I had to improvise most of it). I still made sales. I still made money, from her speech.

                But I'll never ask her to speak on stage with me again. Still close friends. But she taught me that she won't honor her commitments. Once is enough. I got the lesson.

                And how many times does someone take your money, and not deliver? If the answer is more than "once"...it's your fault. It's a shame. Some of John's reports were incredibly valuable. And he has a lot to offer.
                Never said he was evil or had the intentions of ripping people off. I also believe everyone that is successful does put people first... even though you said you put money first, it becomes clear later on in your post that it really is all about people. Did you get your friend the speaking gig because it was about money? No, you were helping her out. Did you take her place because of money? Maybe, but you just said it was because you wanted to compensate the person you booked her with...those aren't really #1 money issues, those are people issues.

                I never denied value John provided. In fact, my post was really wishing him the best. I'm not one to be in the entitlement community, so I don't think second chances are a given, you have to earn them and I hope he does earn it.

                A common theme with John, at least from outside eyes it seemed that when his influx of cash from a WSO started slowing or dying, he lost interest and moved onto another WSO. I don't think anyone here who has followed the situation really believes he had this extravagant plan to rip people off, but do intentions really matter? Whether you plan to rip someone off or you don't plan on it but it happens anyway, isn't the result the same?

                It's going to take a lot for him to rebuild his reputation. I hope he's able to stick with it and do it.
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              • Profile picture of the author isaacsmithjones
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                Very few people are truly evil, and set out to rip people off. But there are a lot of people that have grandiose dreams...and the knowledge to back it up...but don't have the discipline to deliver. I've never seen that change, either.
                I was never involved with the John Durham stuff, so I can't really comment.

                But I couldn't agree more with your comment on discipline. I completely know the feeling of setting something up, and then not wanting to do it "when it's not fun any more". But you just have to push through it, or you'll lose momentum, upset people, and destroy opportunities.

                As you said, your friend never lost your friendship, but she's not gonna get any more of those great opportunities from you.

                I remember that I had to postpone one of my first speaking gig, because my sons were born that day. But I did my best to over-deliver when the speech was re-scheduled. Especially how it was a friend you had arranged it for me, and I didn't want to make him look bad.

                When these things happen, you have to think about the other people involved. It's not just about you any more.
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              • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                That isn't it. I put money first, and I still always deliver what's promised, and more.
                Do you really think any of us believe this about you Claude, that is just patently NOT true.
                Signature
                We do not have to become heroes overnight. Just a step at a time, meeting each thing that comes up ... discovering we have the strength to stare it down. - Eleanor Roosevelt

                Your opinion of yourself becomes your reality. If you have all these doubts, then no one will believe in you and everything will go wrong. If you think the opposite, the opposite will happen. It’s that simple.-Curtis Jackson- 50 Cent
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        • Profile picture of the author shelialhodges
          Originally Posted by nathanjacobs View Post

          Well, I called it in the other thread.

          I'll stay subscribed. I always liked John, well until the WSO went bad but I didn't even dislike him much then. I understand things happen.

          What I don't understand though is how someone can work so hard, and gain celebrity status on here and just throw it all away. John had a valuable commodity in his reputation here, coulda earned him so much more money than he has pulled in. but now that's pretty tarnished.

          Lastly, his email also offered paid script writing. I suggest he offer a 10 minute phonecall and a free phone script tailored exactly to that persons business if they had purchased his WSO.

          That'd go a long way. Maybe on the call he might even apologize. I'd forgive him.
          we have same opinion important is you will not give any money , the man only want share his knowledge why you unsubscribed, give him a chance ..
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wwjd View Post

        I didn't disappear... I was just getting slammed personally and thought it best to just stay quiet and learn from the forum. Thanks UMC for your open mindedness and support. We appreciate it.
        Your attempt at pre-selling was more than obvious.
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    • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
      Originally Posted by Jonwebb View Post

      exactly what did he do?
      Do some research at this point it really does not matter.

      John has a great writing style, he could use it to his advantage. He maybe getting his life back into order. If his ban were to be lifted here because of new owners, he should not be able to promote any WSO's
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonwebb
        Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

        Do some research at this point it really does not matter.

        John has a great writing style, he could use it to his advantage. He maybe getting his life back into order. If his ban were to be lifted here because of new owners, he should not be able to promote any WSO's
        in the time you took to wrote that post you could have answer my question.

        after reading those long ass thread...

        I've come to the conclusion that, its tough shits. John made some choices in the past that affected some people, its rough but you live and learn.

        John I attempting to do right by you all, that's more than I cam say about alot of people, In this world. Trust him or don't trust him...

        cry a river build a bridge and get over it

        - Jon
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  • Profile picture of the author squidface
    Banned
    nah....guys beyond help. Same old pattern to emerge.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveSki
      It looks like his Banned Status has been removed... View Profile: John Durham

      Will John speak up on this forum again?
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      • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

          Now THAT is an interesting development.
          Well, that's what all this pre-selling by his girlfriend was about. John is itching to start selling again, but knows it ain't going to be easy on the WF even after his ban is lifted. People don't forget real easily, so she comes in to soften up the crowd and hint at a new "thing" he's working on and implying that he somehow plans on making reparations.

          Next comes his email .... drum roll, please. Introducing the new, improved ..... blah blah blah
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          • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Well, that's what all this pre-selling by his girlfriend was about. John is itching to start selling again, but knows it ain't going to be easy on the WF even after his ban is lifted. People don't forget real easily, so she comes in to soften up the crowd and hint at a new "thing" he's working on and implying that he somehow plans on making reparations.

            Next comes his email .... drum roll, please. Introducing the new, improved ..... blah blah blah
            The actual "advertising" and part of the pre-sell is being done by his detractors... brilliant!

            Marvin
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            • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
              Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

              The actual "advertising" and part of the pre-sell is being done by his detractors... brilliant!

              Marvin
              Marvin...you nailed it.

              Gotta give credit to Russ. Using John's name in the thread title was a great marketing strategy.

              The "girlfriend" thread got over 1,600 views in a short period of time. I'm sure this one will do much better. Very wise to post here for sig views or future sig views, as the "controversy" will be ongoing.
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          • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            but knows it ain't going to be easy on the WF even after his ban is lifted. People don't forget real easily, so she comes in to soften up the crowd and hint at a new "thing" he's working on and implying that he somehow plans on making reparations.
            I don't think it will be too difficult. WF has over 700,000 members. That is a city! He will find a place to plug in I think.

            It will be -

            I'm sorry
            My life fell apart
            This is why
            I want to make it right
            Here is what I am offering
            Just to prove it here is some great free stuff
            Here is a low-cost report

            If he is smart (which I believe he really is) - he will not offer any type of services for sale. From now on it should be reports or something tangible.

            I think he can get it back together if he stays away from any type of service delivery model.
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            Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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  • Profile picture of the author bob ross
    John made the same mistake AP made, they sold products that relied on future content and delivery. great way to make some cash without doing anything but is almost guaranteed to end in disaster.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      And without fulfilling that content it was really all a lie to begin with. No matter what happened, what excuses were made, from the purchasers eyes it was a lie in the end.

      Originally Posted by bob ross View Post

      John made the same mistake AP made, they sold products that relied on future content and delivery. great way to make some cash without doing anything but is almost guaranteed to end in disaster.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Wow... (Feeling arms and legs just to make sure...) " I'm a Warrior again!".... Is this for real...?

        Did NOT see that comin!

        You are all partially right. I made some huge mistakes in 2012 and 2013... also went through a personal tragedy that about drove me crazy and it DID affect my work.... on top of all the smearing... But I lived to see a better day eventually and I want to make up to my customers whatever they feel has been lost, even if it takes a few years to gain that trust back.

        I have been a Warrior since 2000, so I'm gonna be around long enough to rise above the past reproach... Have been for almost 15 years. I will ALWAYS be a Warrior.

        On another note:

        There are apologies to be made, and mistakes to be corrected...and information to be shared.... but for now I have some consultations to do this afternoon, so first things first.

        I love you guys!

        Nathan, I will work hard to regain respect.

        Lost my Grandkids last year, which you know... and I just went off the deep end finally over that and had to go lick my wounds or just die... either one wouldnt have mattered last year.

        Thank God we can endure more than we think sometimes, because Im back, Im happy, Im living my dream life overlooking the river... and I have decided that the only way to handle this is to open up a free site for my customers and give them a real time help center and be devoted to it. Thats what made me successful in the first place. I just lost focus with all the personal issues...

        I can't change the past, but I can be a real time help center today and keep my nose to the grindstone helping people and eventually they will all know that what I was going through would have been enough to make any man fold, and that my intentions were not bad.... Some wouldn't ever get that I guess.... But I can try and just keep one foot in front of the other, because you are all worth trying for.

        I was so passionately in love with those kids...

        Now it's time to be great again...for them and for me, and for all the people who were hurt by my actions... You guys have a better man here than you had before, I have learned alot of major lessons in the last year. Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks...?

        believe me... Enough pain can change even the most incorrigible person from the inside out...

        When you have been through that kind pain and humiliation, and facing your name being splattered all over, watching people just destroy you, the one who you thought could never fall... and then when you carry around for a year that you know you let all your friends and customers down... it changes you... you learn things, about yourself and about life.

        You know what the good part is?

        You achieve a certain mastery of yourself, finding your way back out of that dark place and back into the light. Your joy is 100 times more full, and your determination to do the right things is 100 times as strong.

        It's hard facing my friends right now... I have lost at least 30% of my following... People who use to love me hate me now... and the ones who still do, are a bit skeptical and I understand.

        All I can do is give and give and share my heart out until everyone feels they have more than could possibly be expected. That's simply all a man can do. In any event, I can help people. It's what I do best.

        I'm back and I am going to Rock again!

        It's good to be a freakin Warrior! I'm sorry for anyone who has been hurt, and the only thing I can do now is be the best I can be for you... if that doesn't change your feelings over time, then I am sorry I lost a friend. I can only do right hence, I don't have a time machine...

        Some say a tiger doesn't change his stripes...No he doesnt. I had a couple of years of screwing up and now Im changing my stripes back to bein a MACHINE!!

        For those of you who know...I can't say anything other than "It just drove me crazy when we lost". You KNOW I'm that passionate (Those who have been around) ...And I am ALWAYS going to go crazy for love, and I am ALWAYS going to give 1000%, I'm always going to be the top salesman wherever I go, and I am always going to produce champions... and I'm always going to crash hard when I crash.

        But Im NEVER going to fall like that again, because there is no hurt deeper than what has already passed, and no trouble or obstacles bigger than the ones I already face online...and if a man can get through all of this then I guess not much can take him down again....Im going to get through it!

        I am in the light, back to joy and success... and I'm ready to f'n rock n roll!

        Gotta go right now though....there are phone calls to make.

        Much love guys!

        JD- The Telemarketing Jedi

        Ps. Dan, you are spot on about the apologies... Maybe you can also imagine that they might be sincere, just possibly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Welcome back, John.

          People who have had family tragedies or huge family disappointments understand how that can take precedent over anything else in your life.

          That said - it's going to be a long road back on the WF so take your time and don't try too hard.

          Life goes on - kids grow up - business has ups and downs.

          kay
          Signature
          Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post


          Ps. Dan, you are spot on about the apologies... Maybe you can also imagine that they might be sincere, just possibly.
          I was never angry at you. It was more of an empathy - like "Oh damn...he just bit the bullet. That sucks."

          I could lay out a sob story too (a lot of us could) - deaths, broken promises, lessons learned, tears cried, meals missed, friends lost, homes wrecked, lives destroyed, and addictions conquered.

          I too have people who will never, ever trust me again, and rightfully so.

          I'm sure, if you work your ass off, and give more than you ever gave, and never take money unless you are already delivering - people will forget about all of this. Hell, let's just let the drama go right now.

          You still know who you took money from. I'm sure you feel a responsibility to them.

          "Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it." Powerful stuff.
          Signature
          Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

            I could lay out a sob story too (a lot of us could) - deaths, broken promises, lessons learned, tears cried, meals missed, friends lost, homes wrecked, lives destroyed, and addictions conquered.

            I too have people who will never, ever trust me again, and rightfully so.
            Everyone who has been in business for any length of time has them.

            Its part of learning and growing.

            John,
            Glad to see your alive and healthy.
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            Selling Ain't for Sissies
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post


            "Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it." Powerful stuff.

            Wow. Powerful. Thank you Dan.
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            • Profile picture of the author atrbiz
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              Wow. Powerful. Thank you Dan.
              Welcome back sir.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

            I was never angry at you. It was more of an empathy - like "Oh damn...he just bit the bullet. That sucks."

            I could lay out a sob story too (a lot of us could) - deaths, broken promises, lessons learned, tears cried, meals missed, friends lost, homes wrecked, lives destroyed, and addictions conquered.

            I too have people who will never, ever trust me again, and rightfully so.


            I'm sure, if you work your ass off, and give more than you ever gave, and never take money unless you are already delivering - people will forget about all of this. Hell, let's just let the drama go right now.

            You still know who you took money from. I'm sure you feel a responsibility to them.

            "Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it." Powerful stuff.
            Same here. Tragedy hits us all. If you are 50 years old..you have almost certainly suffered horrendous loss.

            And it's the same with me. I have people that will never do business with me again. And they are in the right. Fortunately, most of that is decades past.

            And I've never had a bad dealing with John, but I know the story.

            John; Apologies won't help. Not really. Restitution or delivering what you owe will go a long way. People need to see evidence. Long posts sharing ideas is wonderful. But it isn't proof of anything. Make good on old promises, and you'll be surprised how much that will help.

            Don't tell them. Show them.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Indeed Claude, that is what I am in the process of doing.

              All of this will be addressed on a new membership site that I'm creating for free for my customers, which will be more valuable than any product I have ever created, just like the telemarketing forum was more valuable than any product I ever created, and just as my free posts are. I do appreciate all the advice. I am just going to go on helping people and spreading good will as I have said, and making up to old customers is a part of that. For anyone who feels I havent offered them $39.00 worth of value, there are plans set in motion to take care of that.

              -JD
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            • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              John; Apologies won't help. Not really. Restitution or delivering what you owe will go a long way. People need to see evidence. Long posts sharing ideas is wonderful. But it isn't proof of anything. Make good on old promises, and you'll be surprised how much that will help.

              Don't tell them. Show them.
              Claude,

              Agreed....

              I've heard the following regarding personal relationships....

              It is not if you screw up.... It is when.... When you screw up, the important thing is what you do to make things right. - Unknown
              Some may think it applies to business relationships as well... I'm sure others will not.

              All The Best,

              Rich Beck BCIP, MCSD, MCIS
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          Nathan, I will work hard to regain respect.
          I'm afraid that if you think it is a matter of regaining respect, you've missed the entire point of everything that has happened and the backlash involved. Gaining respect should be the last thing on your mind right now.

          For me, you wasted my time and effort to help. Other people lost out on money.. I understand personal issues but your lack of follow through made a bad situation worse. You need to understand that it isn't the events that happen in your personal life that make things bad, it is the way you respond, react, and recover that defines who you are personally and professionally.

          You say you're a warrior and always will be but that's not how warriors act. Greatness doesn't cower in moments of adversity.

          Nobody gives a damn about you gaining respect. Most people whether they hate you or not, still respect the knowledge you have.

          Your life has been about sales... selling... etc. Right now, you need to be focused on NOT selling, and work on making things better with the people you wronged. If I were you, I wouldn't sell a damn thing, for a very long time.

          If you want to be great, then you have to stop talking like that. Everything you said was about yourself... you're going to need to switch that up and make it about others instead of what you've gone through, what you're doing, what you're going to do. You want to be great, you want to be a machine, etc. but what about the people that wanted a refund, what about the people that are unhappy with you, what about the people that trusted you?

          You know that I've done real life reputation management, not just the ORM crap, and you also know that I'm very good. You have to prevent yourself from selling any product or service right now. You have a lot of work to do if you ever want to use this forum as a medium to push any kind of product like you used to. If I were you, I'd focus on helping other people in exchange for no money. Work on delivering on your last few WSOs, even to people you refunded, or charged back.

          If you're in business long enough, things will happen, people will complain... you will make a lot of mistakes. Lots of trials and tribulations. I hope you have learned from your mistakes and come out better.

          The fact is you will never regain the amount of trust you once had, people may forgive, but they don't forget. So that leaves you with a couple options that will define your character:

          1.) You continue selling because there's a new newb with a credit card at their fingertips every 10 minutes.
          or
          2.) You start delivering awesome stuff and make amends with people, rebuilding your name, allowing new people to see what you deliver, and you can eventually sell whatever crap you want.

          #2 will take a long time, a lot of work, and really your only long term option. If you take option #1 you're probably STILL going to make a bit of money, but it won't last. So the decision is either money quick, or people first and money later. I'm anxious to see what you decide.
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  • Profile picture of the author atrbiz
    John Durham is officially unblocked, let's see what type of comeback he makes...
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Nathan "I will earn your respect" , means "I will come back and do right by you". It's just another way of saying it. And thank you for the bulleted advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author flnz400
    lol these boards are so full of lulz these days...

    But you're all missing the meat and potatoes from all the drama: If someone is so good at cold calling/selling, why on earth would they need to come back on this forum... for anything? (not to mention to sell anything)

    They wouldn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
      Originally Posted by flnz400 View Post

      lol these boards are so full of lulz these days...

      But you're all missing the meat and potatoes from all the drama: If someone is so good at cold calling/selling, why on earth would they need to come back on this forum... for anything? (not to mention to sell anything)

      They wouldn't.
      I don't know...I'm really good at what I do. I come here for interaction and to give away the things I learn through experience. It's fun.
      Signature
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Why do coaches coach football if they really know how to play? This is an age old question.

    Many great salesman dream of becoming sales trainers. It's not such a strange dream.
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    • Profile picture of the author flnz400
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Why do coaches coach football if they really know how to play? This is an age old question.

      Many great salesman dream of becoming sales trainers. It's not such a strange dream.
      It must just be your love for the game bud.

      So you're never going to release another WSO again, correct?

      Because you make plenty of money from running your own call center, and selling directory listings for your own directory right?

      I mean who am I kidding, this is John Durham, he builds 20 million dollar directories in his sleep... WSO money?? Pffftttttt chump change
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by flnz400 View Post

        It must just be your love for the game bud.

        So you're never going to release another WSO again, correct?

        Because you make plenty of money from running your own call center, and selling directory listings for your own directory right?

        I mean who am I kidding, this is John Durham, he builds 20 million dollar directories in his sleep... WSO money?? Pffftttttt chump change

        My intention right now is to make things up to my customers. That is it. Will I ever release products again? Yes. Of Course I will. What is a sales trainer with no training products?

        I don't have any at the moment and that may be awhile down the road, right now I have only thought as far as opening up a resource center for my customers and making things right, I will think about moving forward later. WSO? I don't know about that... Products? Yes. For my list...

        The only WSO's I see in the future are free reports to generate opt ins.

        On another note:

        I understand that you are trying to express some resentment here... I didnt mean to slight you and ignore that, but figured since the questions were asked, I may as well answer them directly...

        I'm sorry if my past experience with directories sites offends, or seems unbelievable. No I do not run a call center at the moment, but YES I have run a few of them, and have intricate knowledge of telemarketing. Being a former telemarketing manager and call center business owner entailed wearing a lot of different hats, so I apologize for coming across as a know it all, but , well... We all have our forte's.

        I have seen alot of sales in my time. I hope you can learn something from that, if you want, but if not... I understand. All I can say is that the knowledge and experience will continue to be shared, with whoever wants to participate... Some don't, and that's alright.

        Originally Posted by flnz400 View Post

        It must just be your love for the game bud.
        Believe it or not, thats true. I think all sales trainers (not just myself) choose to do that over other things because they have a love for the game. Good ones make alot of money.

        Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

        The actual "advertising" and part of the pre-sell is being done by his detractors... brilliant!

        Marvin
        It would be even more brilliant if you knew it was intentionally done that way. Right now you are only guessing...

        I think pre-selling is a strong word, a better one is "raising awareness". If I did not know how to do that or understand the value of it, then I couldn't teach anyone anything.

        She does run some facebook sites though, and did come here to learn, and HAS learned a thing or two... She is excited about finding this place.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          It would be even more brilliant if you knew it was intentionally done that way. Right now you are only guessing...

          I think pre-selling is a strong word, a better one is "raising awareness". If I did not know how to do that or understand the value of it, then I couldn't teach anyone anything.

          She does run some facebook sites though, and did come here to learn, and HAS learned a thing or two... She is excited about finding this place.
          John, for someone trying to repair damage done to your reputation, I think an honest, straightforward approach would have gone a lot farther. I wasn't your customer, so I don't have a dog in the fight, but when "she" showed up with her hints of great things to come, pretending that she was here on her own behalf, rather than to test the waters or "raise awareness" as you say, it just came off as really disingenuous. This is your battle. Why drag some girlfriend in? It didn't you either of you any favors to do it that way. Just my thoughts on it.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            John, for someone trying to repair damage done to your reputation, I think an honest, straightforward approach would have gone a lot farther. I wasn't your customer, so I don't have a dog in the fight, but when "she" showed up with her hints of great things to come, pretending that she was here on her own behalf, rather than to test the waters or "raise awareness" as you say, it just came off as really disingenuous. This is your battle. Why drag some girlfriend in? It didn't you either of you any favors to do it that way. Just my thoughts on it.
            Thank you. I'm sorry to have offended. She truly is a great person by the way, and well worth getting to know. The raising of awareness was inadvertant to her coming here to learn about face book. However it did prove to be useful, as I couldn't speak for myself, though that wasn't the original intention
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            John, for someone trying to repair damage done to your reputation, I think an honest, straightforward approach would have gone a lot farther. I wasn't your customer, so I don't have a dog in the fight, but when "she" showed up with her hints of great things to come, pretending that she was here on her own behalf, rather than to test the waters or "raise awareness" as you say, it just came off as really disingenuous. This is your battle. Why drag some girlfriend in? It didn't you either of you any favors to do it that way. Just my thoughts on it.
            Yeah, it was pretty transparent. The minute I read her first post, I knew John was on his way, somehow.

            It's one way to test the waters.

            John; Just a note that you're going to have tons of bad posts, on every thread you post on, until you clean up your mess. Personally, I'd stop posting until that's done. A few posts by satisfied customers ...before you jump back in, will add tremendous credibility to what you say after that.

            Personally, if it were me, I may have waited another few years, and reinvented myself, to come back to a different crowd...or just gone to a different pond. Who knows.

            Twice in my life, I've done something so wrong to a group of people, that they wanted me to leave....A Lot.

            Once, I stayed, and made it better. It took months to repair the damage, but I did. And a couple of strong friendships came out of it. and some people never forgave me. And I don't blame them a bit. I wouldn't have forgiven me either.

            And once, I escaped my problem, by moving to another state...and left several people paying for my greed and stupidity. That bridge will never be repaired.

            Both of these things happened decades ago, thank goodness. But the event where I left? I have nightmares about it. It's a wound that will never heal....in anyone involved.

            Good luck.
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        • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          It would be even more brilliant if you knew it was intentionally done that way. Right now you are only guessing...

          I think pre-selling is a strong word, a better one is "raising awareness". If I did not know how to do that or understand the value of it, then I couldn't teach anyone anything..
          Actually I was only posting about what I saw happening, and I still think it was a brilliant strategy. Whether or not it was done intentionally was something I wasn't concerned with. But it did add another tool to my toolbox .

          I was using the word "presell" since it was used in the prior post with no judgement on my part, hence the quotes.

          Welcome back!

          Marvin
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    • Profile picture of the author mak25
      Now if we could only get David Miller back here, discussions would get even better.

      Glad you're OK John.
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    • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Why do coaches coach football if they really know how to play? This is an age old question.

      Many great salesman dream of becoming sales trainers. It's not such a strange dream.
      No great football players coach when they are capable of still tearing up the gridiron. Great athletes only move on to coaching when they can't hack it on the field anymore. It's a ridiculous analogy.

      Great salespeople can become trainers yet they still spend all of their time selling their own products. They are still selling!
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Why do coaches coach football if they really know how to play? This is an age old question.

      Football coaches? Well, because they're either too fat or too old and can't play anymore, ha ha.

      Poor analogy!

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      • Profile picture of the author John Regal
        Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

        Football coaches? Well, because they're either too fat or too old and can't play anymore, ha ha.

        Poor analogy!

        This is definitely negative thinking bro. Who would tell themselves that they`re too old or too fat to play haha
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Fixin to write you here in a minute Mak Daddio!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I'm a believer Claude. I think it will be fine. People will hate me, and that will not go away, and some won't... But I figure out of 31,000 individual sales, if only 50 people are pissed wanting a refund then, it can't be THAT bad. Especially if Im willing to work on getting it to them and there was never even a refund policy to begin with on the product, nor did it really fail. I just disappeared after the initial , as promised, 30 days, for which I AM truly sorry. I just got done talking to someone on the phone an hour ago (A Warrior) who has made several deals and MONEY with the program everyone is upset about... Never was a forum hopper, aside from my own the WF is the only forum I attend...and a guitar forum. I believe people can live beyond their failures and come back.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      I'm a believer Claude. I think it will be fine. People will hate me, and that will not go away, and some won't... But I figure out of 31,000 individual sales, if only 50 people are pissed wanting a refund then, it can't be THAT bad. Especially if Im willing to work on getting it to them and there was never even a refund policy to begin with on the product, nor did it really fail. I just disappeared after the initial , as promised, 30 days, for which I AM truly sorry. I just got done talking to someone on the phone an hour ago (A Warrior) who has made several deals and MONEY with the program everyone is upset about... Never was a forum hopper, aside from my own the WF is the only forum I attend...and a guitar forum. I believe people can live beyond their failures and come back.
      I think this tells us all how your stay here will be. Can't be THAT bad, your WSO didn't fail even though you were banned because of it, it's not your fault that they didn't notice there wasn't a refund policy, you're on the phone with people who are happy with you but phone calls to people who aren't would go much further.

      I'm worried that you're either delusional or not taking this seriously. You have an opportunity here, but so far you're missing out on it and setting yourself up for failure.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I think this tells us all how your stay here will be. Can't be THAT bad, your WSO didn't fail even though you were banned because of it, it's not your fault that they didn't notice there wasn't a refund policy, you're on the phone with people who are happy with you but phone calls to people who aren't would go much further.

        I'm worried that you're either delusional or not taking this seriously. You have an opportunity here, but so far you're missing out on it and setting yourself up for failure.
        These were my thoughts exactly. Sending in the girlfriend to lay the groundwork, saying that there was no refund policy, the phone call with the "happy" customer ... yada yada yada. This whole thing is just sooo lacking in sincerity. A lot of pretty words, and a lot of excuses and minimizing.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            It's insincere to tell the truth and say there wasnt a refund policy but Im going to give em anyway and build a free forum for people to benefit from?

            Saying Im sorry, instead of making up a fake profile , marketing under a different name and burying the past like most losers do?

            Okay... There are going to be certain people who NOTHING speaks to, and I get that.
            Yes, considering the circumstances. You walked away and you think that a lack of a refund policy is important? It remains to be seen if the free forum will benefit them. I would have quietly built it and offered it before making a big deal of it. It's on the list of things that haven't happened yet at this point.

            I'm just telling you the impression that these two threads have given me and it's not one that inspires trust. Take it or leave it. I don't care either way.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Yes, considering the circumstances. You walked away and you think that a lack of a refund policy is important? It remains to be seen if the free forum will benefit them. I would have quietly built it and offered it before making a big deal of it. It's on the list of things that haven't happened yet at this point.

              I'm just telling you the impression that these two threads have given me and it's not one that inspires trust. Take it or leave it. I don't care either way.
              Sue, I hope you dont ever have to walk in the shoes that made me have to walk away. Still it was my own bad and I have UTTERLY stood up and admitted it. I could easily have invented a new profile like half the people who ever got banned and came in here selling everything but the kitchen sink...but I didnt... I am taking my own bad name and saying Im sorry and rebuilding it with worn out tools, and I certainly hope that if you ever fall like I did, that you will love yourself , your name, and your causes enough to do the same.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                Sue, I hope you dont ever have to walk in the shoes that made me have to walk away. Still it was my own bad and I have UTTERLY stood up and admitted it. I could easily have invented a new profile like half the people who ever got banned and came in here selling everything but the kitchen sink, but I didnt... I am taking my own bad name and saying Im sorry and rebuilding it with worn out tools, and I certainly hope that if you ever fall like I did, that you will love yourself and your causes enough to do the same.
                ... and I wish you well with it and I'll just leave it at that.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                Sue, I hope you dont ever have to walk in the shoes that made me have to walk away. Still it was my own bad and I have UTTERLY stood up and admitted it. I could easily have invented a new profile like half the people who ever got banned and came in here selling everything but the kitchen sink...but I didnt... I am taking my own bad name and saying Im sorry and rebuilding it with worn out tools, and I certainly hope that if you ever fall like I did, that you will love yourself , your name, and your causes enough to do the same.
                This attitude, along with the only 50 people are complaining, along with the I didn't have to refund anyone because I didn't have a refund policy, along with the girlfriend trick, along with implying that what you're doing is noble because you're not sneaking back in under a different name, along with the fact that you're hyping a product that doesn't yet exist and unhappy former customers should be grateful for that small favor ...

                along with the notion that I or anyone else would walk away from customers if only we had to walk in your shoes for a moment ... is all complete BS, John. Do you actually think that you're the only one here who has gone through hard times or for one reason or another, had difficulty fulfilling our obligations to our customers? I can tell you for certain that is not the case. You chose to walk away. Others didn't.

                Not being your customer to start off with, I didn't form any strong opinions about you before, but now that you've come back here and opened your mouth .... John honestly, I trust you less now that I know you better.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I think this tells us all how your stay here will be. Can't be THAT bad, your WSO didn't fail even though you were banned because of it, it's not your fault that they didn't notice there wasn't a refund policy, you're on the phone with people who are happy with you but phone calls to people who aren't would go much further.

        I'm worried that you're either delusional or not taking this seriously. You have an opportunity here, but so far you're missing out on it and setting yourself up for failure.
        Nathan, you are using strong words. I have been here for 15 years. I had some failures last year, I have apologized til Im blue in the face and have created solutions to rectify the situations.

        Using words like delusional on me are not necessary. My opprtunity will not go away because you are concerned if I am delusional. My obligation is to make up what was lost and to go on delivering valuable knowledge, only to people who want it. I am way beyond selling in forum posts. That isnt what this is about. I think you are being hot headed. I dont know what more I could say...Im just going to go on with my plan. You can keep making this point if you like.

        Im sorry if you are pissed at me, I am older than you and have been a warrior three times longer and have had 10 times more successes in my time, but I respect you because you are a young aggressive buck, and I use to be that, but Im not what you are now. Thank you for the scoldings.

        I really dont need anyone to tell me what to expect at the forum I have been at for fifteen years. Im just gonna do my thing , make up for my inconsistencies, work hard...and whoever wants to be a part can and whoever doesnt doesnt have to.

        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        These were my thoughts exactly. Sending in the girlfriend to lay the groundwork, saying that there was no refund policy, the phone call with the "happy" customer ... yada yada yada. This whole thing is just sooo lacking in sincerity. A lot of pretty words, and a lot of excuses and minimizing.
        It's insincere to tell the truth and say there wasnt a refund policy but Im going to give em anyway and build a free forum for people to benefit from?

        Saying Im sorry, instead of making up a fake profile , and marketing here under a different name, burying the past like most losers do?

        That's insincere?

        Okay... There are going to be certain people who NOTHING speaks to, and I get that.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          Nathan, you are using strong words. I have been here for 15 years. I had some failures last year, I have apologized til Im blue in the face and have created solutions to rectify the situations.

          Using words like delusional on me are not necessary. My opprtunity will not go away because you are concerned if I am delusional. My obligation is to make up what was lost and to go on delivering valuable knowledge, only to people who want it. I am way beyond selling in forum posts. That isnt what this is about. I think you are being hot headed. I dont know what more I could say...Im just going to go on with my plan. You can keep making this point if you like.

          Im sorry if you are pissed at me, I am older than you and have been a warrior three times longer and have had 10 times more successes in my time, but I respect you because you are a young aggressive buck, and I use to be it, but Im not what you are now. Thank you for the scoldings.

          I really dont need anyone to tell me what to expect at the forum I have been at for fifteen years. Im just gonna do my thing , make up for my inconsistencies, work hard...and whoever wants to be a part can and whoever doesnt doesnt have to.
          I'm not telling you what to expect, I'm telling you what the reality is that you seemed to have numbingly escaped. Your opportunity will go away not because I'm concerned you may be delusional, but because you're already not owning up to your issues. What happened is not my fault, your customers, your friends or enemies, it is your fault. Nobody can share that burden with you. Actually, it seems that you don't even think of it as a burden any longer.

          The whole refund policy is complete BS. Under the Uniform Commercial Code and Consumer Protection Act, you HAVE to have a refund policy clearly stated on a receipt, or invoice or else a consumer can file suit for 3X damages and easily win when refusing to refund. Having no refund policy means that you can't claim you don't offer refunds, it means there are no stipulations on refunds and if there are, you can be sued for unfair and deceptive business practices.

          You're the master sales person, do you think people are inclined to believe the words you type without seeing action? You said you don't know what more you can say, it's not about what you can say... you're not going to be able to sell me on anything... what I'd like to see you do is own up to everything instead of passing blame.

          Yes, you've been here longer... you're older than me.. the whole 10x more successes I doubt, but okay. I'm not trying to scold you, and the reason you think I'm pissed is probably incorrect. I'm over the fact that you wasted my time and effort, kind of... the thing that really bothers me now is that you have this opportunity to make things right but already started with the excuses and not owning up for the issues.

          Until you're able to man up and admit that it is your fault, alone, without blaming any personal circumstances that caused it, without blaming your customers, without having any excuse for why it happened...until you're able to sincerely apologize without a grand plan to pull people into a sales funnel, and until you're able to see this as an opportunity to help people versus selling them.... I will never stand behind you, you won't have my support, I won't avoid speaking my mind, and I certainly won't overlook any inconsistency. Your apology was half assed without taking full fault. I think you can do better... if you don't think so, then continue on with your master plan.
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          • Profile picture of the author Matt Lee
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            I'm not telling you what to expect, I'm telling you what the reality is that you seemed to have numbingly escaped. Your opportunity will go away not because I'm concerned you may be delusional, but because you're already not owning up to your issues. What happened is not my fault, your customers, your friends or enemies, it is your fault. Nobody can share that burden with you. Actually, it seems that you don't even think of it as a burden any longer.

            The whole refund policy is complete BS. Under the Uniform Commercial Code and Consumer Protection Act, you HAVE to have a refund policy clearly stated on a receipt, or invoice or else a consumer can file suit for 3X damages and easily win when refusing to refund. Having no refund policy means that you can't claim you don't offer refunds, it means there are no stipulations on refunds and if there are, you can be sued for unfair and deceptive business practices.

            You're the master sales person, do you think people are inclined to believe the words you type without seeing action? You said you don't know what more you can say, it's not about what you can say... you're not going to be able to sell me on anything... what I'd like to see you do is own up to everything instead of passing blame.

            Yes, you've been here longer... you're older than me.. the whole 10x more successes I doubt, but okay. I'm not trying to scold you, and the reason you think I'm pissed is probably incorrect. I'm over the fact that you wasted my time and effort, kind of... the thing that really bothers me now is that you have this opportunity to make things right but already started with the excuses and not owning up for the issues.

            Until you're able to man up and admit that it is your fault, alone, without blaming any personal circumstances that caused it, without blaming your customers, without having any excuse for why it happened...until you're able to sincerely apologize without a grand plan to pull people into a sales funnel, and until you're able to see this as an opportunity to help people versus selling them.... I will never stand behind you, you won't have my support, I won't avoid speaking my mind, and I certainly won't overlook any inconsistency. Your apology was half assed without taking full fault. I think you can do better... if you don't think so, then continue on with your master plan.

            Errr... Remind me never to piss off Nameless!
            Signature
            "One of the Most Successful Offline WSO's Ever!
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        • Profile picture of the author globalpro
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          Im sorry if you are pissed at me, I am older than you and have been a warrior three times longer and have had 10 times more successes in my time, but I respect you because you are a young aggressive buck, and I use to be that, but Im not what you are now. Thank you for the scoldings.

          I really dont need anyone to tell me what to expect at the forum I have been at for fifteen years. Im just gonna do my thing , make up for my inconsistencies, work hard...and whoever wants to be a part can and whoever doesnt doesnt have to
          John,

          Even though Nathan's posts can be blunt (even come off as sounding harsh), I think he is in the group of people that would like to see you get things right, but...

          the statements above don't sound like words on contrition, but more like words of defiance.

          Face it, the burden is totally on you as to whether you will ever be made completely welcomed here again, but I think you have plenty that would like to see that happen. The past is the past and how long you were here and what you did don't matter any more. It's what you do from now on that will count.

          So, let's move on, and personally I hope you do what it takes to make things right. You always struck me as a pretty decent guy with a lot of issues to resolve, so if that's the case, then work towards the future and making things right.

          Oh, and this may be hard as a salesman, but try to stop 'selling' your redemption and let your works tell the tale.

          All the best.

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            There are people who started their posts by saying "I didn't lose any money" who then go on to post multiple times in an accusatory and angry way.

            Now we have people who joined THIS YEAR - jumping on the bash-wagon as if this has something to do with them.

            There are a few people who want exactly the wording they think John should use - and exactly the right "tone" they think he should take....and they are posting again and again with each post more angry than the last.

            John posted that 50 people asked for refunds...someone says "what about those that didn't ask for a refund" and someone else claims "you should refund everyone". WSO's are not required to come with a refund guarantee - and people that didn't ask for a refund two years ago shouldn't be asking now.

            I've seen scammers come and go here - often with a lot money from members. I've seen WSO sellers get in over their head or have a personal crisis and end up disappearing.

            It's rare to see someone come back and try to get it right. Some will give John a chance and some won't. Those who weren't harmed and weren't here - need to back off. People on this forum are better than that - at least they used to be.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              I guess I forgot how rough it could be in here, yesterday was a bit shocking on the system... I'm just gonna go on with my work quietly for now. You are right Kay, this may take some time. Gonna take it slow. Thanks to all my friends here. I love you guys.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              It's rare to see someone come back and try to get it right. Some will give John a chance and some won't. Those who weren't harmed and weren't here - need to back off. People on this forum are better than that - at least they used to be.
              Redemption Kay is an action, not words. If you read through all of his arrogant posts in this thread and think that this is redemption ... well, it's not what I call redemption. I don't have to lose money to John to have an opinion on it, nor does anyone else. From the moment that he attempted to "play" us with the girlfriend trying to soften up the crowd, it was easy to see what was going on. John's attempt at a comeback. If he were serious about winning people over, he would have done the actions first. Make that forum. Make those customers happy that he left hanging first.

              I think perhaps you and John are friends. Great. Stand by him, but he's going to have to sell himself to us himself. Somebody else's word isn't going to cut it. Only his actions are and right now, he's done more harm than good to his already bad reputation.

              Yeah, it inflamed me when he said, Sue, if only you had to walk in my shoes .... blah blah blah.

              Well, I have a little scandal myself. I undercharged and oversold my time for a WSO ... and it wasn't pennies. It was $500 bucks per shot and it sold well. The project for each customer would have taken 6 weeks. It became obvious to me that with the amount that I had sold and my gross miscalculation of the time and effort it would require, and the expense of outsourcing some of it, that I would never be able to fulfill these orders.

              I had six weeks to play with for the customers most in a hurry. I worked my ass off on other projects to keep cash rolling in and refunded them with an explanation of how this WSO wasn't a good idea. They were happy and appreciated the explanation and the $500 back. A few of my customers had a lot of money and were in no hurry, so they went to the bottom of the list. I paid every one of them back and it took months.

              It was the scandal that never happened. It would have been bigger than this one because of the amount of money involved. There was not a single unhappy customer and my reputation didn't suffer one bit. I could have just disappeared and kept all the money of course, but I would never have been able to live with myself if I did that. I didn't have to redeem myself or make public apologies. The action I took to rectify the problem was the redemption

              As for personal sorrow, he most certainly isn't the only one who has endured personal sorrow. I won't get into mine, but most everyone has at least one story. It is not an excuse for walking away from customers and using it as one instead of just saying that he really screwed up and it's entirely his own fault is a mistake on his part.

              John is a salesman and like a salesman, like a poster above said, he is trying to "sell" this redemption ... rather than "doing" it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Suzanne -

                No one gets redemption in one thread. I understand the anger of some but not the continued attacks of others.

                When someone new here - jumps in to compare a WF member to a serial killer....this has gone too far! No one should be OK with that.

                People have been able to vent in this thread and that was needed. But at some point the argument has been made - the anger expressed - and it's time to stop shouting.

                As for personal sorrow, he most certainly isn't the only one who has endured personal sorrow.
                People react differently to stress and loss. I can identify because I've had times in my own life where I did just walk away...and I never tried to go back. I didn't take money but I took trust and friendship and tossed it away.

                You can't judge how someone else should "react" - because you aren't inside their skin and you don't know what their breaking point is.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Suzanne -

                  No one gets redemption in one thread. I understand the anger of some but not the continued attacks of others.

                  When someone new here - jumps in to compare a WF member to a serial killer....this has gone too far! No one should be OK with that.

                  People have been able to vent in this thread and that was needed. But at some point the argument has been made - the anger expressed - and it's time to stop shouting.
                  The serial killer thing was over the top and not a good comparison, but Kay ...no one gets redemption in 1 or 1,000 threads. As I said, redemption is not talk. It is action. John should have stayed under cover until he could come back with his happy former customers and forum in place. The tone of his posts and the excuses and the arrogance in announcing how much he has done for people ... all of that has done him more harm than good. He really needs to get those customers squared away and then come back.
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveSki
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              There are people who started their posts by saying "I didn't lose any money" who then go on to post multiple times in an accusatory and angry way.

              Now we have people who joined THIS YEAR - jumping on the bash-wagon as if this has something to do with them.

              There are a few people who want exactly the wording they think John should use - and exactly the right "tone" they think he should take....and they are posting again and again with each post more angry than the last.

              John posted that 50 people asked for refunds...someone says "what about those that didn't ask for a refund" and someone else claims "you should refund everyone". WSO's are not required to come with a refund guarantee - and people that didn't ask for a refund two years ago shouldn't be asking now.

              I've seen scammers come and go here - often with a lot money from members. I've seen WSO sellers get in over their head or have a personal crisis and end up disappearing.

              It's rare to see someone come back and try to get it right. Some will give John a chance and some won't. Those who weren't harmed and weren't here - need to back off. People on this forum are better than that - at least they used to be.

              Kay… Are you absolutely right about this? Everyone here has the right to condemn John’s behaviour but we should still love the man. I asked, “Why not just refund everyone?” in order to let it be his decision and not my demand.

              If you take someone’s money by promising them something in return and you fail to deliver everything you promised your are under a moral obligation to set things right. And as IamNameLess said “The whole refund policy is complete BS. Under the Uniform Commercial Code and Consumer Protection Act, you HAVE to have a refund policy clearly stated on a receipt, or invoice or else a consumer can file suit for 3X damages and easily win when refusing to refund. Having no refund policy means that you can't claim you don't offer refunds, it means there are no stipulations on refunds and if there are, you can be sued for unfair and deceptive business practices.”

              John is lucky that his buyers haven’t organized together to file suit.

              You saying that “those who weren't harmed and weren't here - need to back off” is a demand on your part. What if you were being mugged on the other side of the street. Using that logic passerby’s on the opposite side shouldn't say anything because they aren't being harmed and are not there on the same side walk that you are bleeding on but they have a moral duty to speak out when they witness someone else being harmed.

              Just my personal opinion and the last time I checked everyone here still has the right to speak what’s on their mind. This isn’t communistic China who can shut people up by force. You demanding they back off is just throwing more wood on the fire.
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            • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              There are people who started their posts by saying "I didn't lose any money" who then go on to post multiple times in an accusatory and angry way.

              Now we have people who joined THIS YEAR - jumping on the bash-wagon as if this has something to do with them.

              There are a few people who want exactly the wording they think John should use - and exactly the right "tone" they think he should take....and they are posting again and again with each post more angry than the last.

              John posted that 50 people asked for refunds...someone says "what about those that didn't ask for a refund" and someone else claims "you should refund everyone". WSO's are not required to come with a refund guarantee - and people that didn't ask for a refund two years ago shouldn't be asking now.

              I've seen scammers come and go here - often with a lot money from members. I've seen WSO sellers get in over their head or have a personal crisis and end up disappearing.

              It's rare to see someone come back and try to get it right. Some will give John a chance and some won't. Those who weren't harmed and weren't here - need to back off. People on this forum are better than that - at least they used to be.
              Wrong! It doesn't matter if the people commenting were harmed or not. This type of behavior damages the forum as a whole. It effects everyone that does business here. I've personally spent a lot of money with other Warriors. It's a great resource that could get destroyed by folks doing bad business.
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              • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

                Wrong! It doesn't matter if the people commenting were harmed or not. This type of behavior damages the forum as a whole. It effects everyone that does business here. I've personally spent a lot of money with other Warriors. It's a great resource that could get destroyed by folks doing bad business.
                Okay, if the people commenting have no skin in the game, what is the point of their posts as well as your own?

                "get destroyed"??? I *hope* you are greatly underestimating the intelligence of the people here (including the moderators.).

                Marvin
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                • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                  Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

                  Okay, if the people commenting have no skin in the game, what is the point of their posts as well as your own?

                  "get destroyed"??? I *hope* you are greatly underestimating the intelligence of the people here (including the moderators.).

                  Marvin
                  The point is obvious. I have no idea how a person that openly ripped off other members gets a free pass back in to do business.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                    Originally Posted by longrobnc View Post

                    The point is obvious. I have no idea how a person that openly ripped off other members gets a free pass back in to do business.
                    You want to continue this discussion? Then take it to the OT forum, and I'll be more than happy to point out the errors of your ways .

                    Marvin
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                    • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                      Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

                      You want to continue this discussion? Then take it to the OT forum, and I'll be more than happy to point out the errors of your ways .

                      Marvin
                      Why don't you scurry off to the OT forum. I'll be right here.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Wrong! It doesn't matter if the people commenting were harmed or not. This type of behavior damages the forum as a whole. It effects everyone that does business here. I've personally spent a lot of money with other Warriors. It's a great resource that could get destroyed by folks doing bad business.
                  B.S. in my opinion.

                  If this forum can't take mistakes, failure and second chances - it's not much of a forum to begin with. The WF is more likely to be "destroyed" by intolerant, self righteous types with control issues that make them want to dictate words someone else uses.

                  This is starting to sound like one of those "we are Warriors" threads. It's a word, people. It's a forum - not some sort of courageous movement.

                  And I do think if you were not harmed two years ago - if you didn't ask for a refund that wasn't received two years ago - you have no business posting multiple angry tirades today. By all means, have your say - then let it go.
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                  • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    B.S. in my opinion.

                    If this forum can't take mistakes, failure and second chances - it's not much of a forum to begin with. The WF is more likely to be "destroyed" by intolerant, self righteous types with control issues that make them want to dictate words someone else uses.

                    This is starting to sound like one of those "we are Warriors" threads. It's a word, people. It's a forum - not some sort of courageous movement.

                    And I do think if you were not harmed two years ago - if you didn't ask for a refund that wasn't received two years ago - you have no business posting multiple angry tirades today. By all means, have your say - then let it go.
                    The operative word in your post was "in my opinion". You are untitled to your own opinion, and the rest of us are entitled to ours. I have been personally ripped off by Warriors and I think that more policing is in order.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      personally ripped off by Warriors
                      By John??? Or by nameless "Warriors"???

                      IN MY OPINION, a member who has been helpful here for many years before he did a crash and burn - who has been thanked 6500+ times....deserves a chance.

                      think that more policing is in order.
                      Policing was done AT THE TIME - but appoint yourself chief of police and go for it. Whatever....I'm done.
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                      • Profile picture of the author longrobnc
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        By John??? Or by nameless "Warriors"???

                        IN MY OPINION, a member who has been helpful here for many years before he did a crash and burn - who has been thanked 6500+ times....deserves a chance.



                        Policing was done AT THE TIME - but appoint yourself chief of police and go for it. Whatever....I'm done.
                        He was in here dropping pearls to get those thanks as a way to entice folks to buy from him. You can't be this naive.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                          You are conjecturing about what happened here years before you joined and you think I'm naive? If so, I'd choose that over vindictive.
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                          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        By John??? Or by nameless "Warriors"???

                        IN MY OPINION, a member who has been helpful here for many years before he did a crash and burn - who has been thanked 6500+ times....deserves a chance.



                        Policing was done AT THE TIME - but appoint yourself chief of police and go for it. Whatever....I'm done.
                        You seriously reckon a guy who has taken people's money and bailed on more than one WSO should be allowed to sell here again ? What do you think May happen ? Yeah let's let him rip some more people off.
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      • Profile picture of the author misterme
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        if only 50 people are pissed wanting a refund then, it can't be THAT bad...
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I think this tells us all how your stay here will be. Can't be THAT bad, your WSO didn't fail even though you were banned because of it, it's not your fault that they didn't notice there wasn't a refund policy, you're on the phone with people who are happy with you but phone calls to people who aren't would go much further.

        I'm worried that you're either delusional or not taking this seriously. You have an opportunity here, but so far you're missing out on it and setting yourself up for failure.
        I'm afraid I also picked up on that, sorry to say because I liked John. Yeah... that certainly portends a character flaw when a guy comparatively minimizes his wrongdoing.

        "So I stole the jewelry but hey I didn't kill any one, right? Besides, who got hurt? Their insurance covered it. Anyway I didn't really steal it. Sure, I took it and I'm sorry about the trouble that caused, but I didn't steal it. I'm not a thief." That's how the guilty reason and justify rather than seeing themselves as they really are because they want to see themselves as good people.

        Not to make this a psych lesson, no one's either good or bad, that's too absolute. We're complex critters. We all have good and bad parts.

        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        I just disappeared after the initial , as promised, 30 days, for which I AM truly sorry.
        But sometimes people do turn around. Thing is, I'm not hearing it in these words.

        Here's the thing about people actually turning around.

        It takes a lifetime of forming a bad behavior to make it part of a person. They have years in, and it's natural for them to do. So to turn around, well, that doesn't happen in a day. Or a few weeks. Or a few months. It can take a few years. New behaviors take just as much time as old behaviors to form, solidify and become so strong, so entrenched, that they past the test.

        What's the "test"?

        This. It's easy to be on good behavior when things are going okay. But whatever craziness made John shirk his responsibilities and run, if anything close to that or like that ever happens again to his circumstances, then if his new found religion isn't strong, the easiest thing for a guy to do is revert back to however they acted last time. It's like a knee jerk reaction.

        And if they don't do that, then you know they've changed.

        Personally I've got nothing against you. Good luck, John.
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        "Best book on answering objections I have seen... it's for photographers but it has brilliant techniques you can use in any business." - Claude Whitacre. When They Say That, You Say This (Amazon Kindle)
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveSki
      John, you say that there was no refund offered on that WSO. Why not just promise everyone a refund anyway and then make good on it? This is a golden opportunity to turn your critics into raving fans if you do the right thing.

      After all the wrong Jordan Bellfort did, he is still going strong. I saw him speak in Brisbane this past week and he claims he will earn more money this year than he made on Wall Street.

      He still owes $100 million in fines and has set things up to prevent the government from collecting it. That’s probably why he’s using an Australian Booking Agent. But he claims he intends to pay it all to reimburse those who got burnt.

      So if Jordan can bounce back by selling sales training… you can do the same. A master persuader will not stop until he sets things right.

      Jordan burnt thousands for big bucks… You only messed up on a low price WSO with 50 people or so??? You should easily be able to bounce back and repay those who feel they got burnt. Earn their trust back, Love them, and they will become your raving fans!

      Cheers,
      SteveSki
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    Lots of promises. That's what got you in trouble in the first place, wasn't it John?

    I would think an adept business person such as yourself would make good on the promises BEFORE telling the world, in the same way I believe a shitty WSO peddler would announce this grand scheme to the forum without having anything tangible to back it up.

    Either way, we're all giving you far more publicity than you deserve.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Nameless...

    I'm owning up to it and handling it man...I don't get what you think I'm not getting. Seriously bro. You come off like I think I don't have to own up and handle my issues. I'm sitting here saying it a hundred times. Again, I have 50 complaints out of 31,000 sales, and I'm handling them. If you dont want to accept me back into your graces then dont... I am actually reconsidering how graceful I actually think of you as, and that bothers me.

    In any event, Im sitting here handling my issues as we speak. I dont know why you continually say Im not taking it seriously when thats exactly what I came here to do. Tell people we are going to reopen the forum that was lost and issue refunds. WTF bro?. Am I doing that for my health? Would you prefer that I go nameless and come here just to take anonymous advantage of the various markets and not be a friend with a name to the forum?

    Life is what you perceive... Can you not perceive when something is not advantageous to a person, like coming here under my own name and trying to do the right thing, the HARD way...? I guarantee that half the people who have been banned here for their own stupidly are now respected gurus with new names, and who never owned up to their failures, and tried to do it the way Im doing it. THE RIGHT WAY I think. End of my case man. Think what you want.

    Ps. Just because some guy hates you because you wont refund his five grand for services rendered and he is complaining, does that make you bad? You ever been in a refund dispute?

    I think Im doing alot better than that by trying to resolve the issue and over deliver.

    Nothing I say to you is going to change your disposition even if you see my point. i do hear in your words that you dont believe in me but that you havent entirely thrown me out, so thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      John, posts like the one a couple posts above, as well as several others in this thread, are NOT helping you accomplish what you claim you want to achieve.

      Stop playing the victim card and making excuses. I'm sorry you went through some hard times, but sh*t happens to all of us. That's life.

      Stop making arrogant, ridiculous statements about how you're so sure you've had "10 times more successes" than Iamnameless or any other member here - unless you can back that up with proof, which you can't.

      And most of all, please stop being so self-righteous by making statements that infer you're the first / only person on this forum who's ever owned up to his/her failures. That's not humility - it's grandiosity.

      The more you say things like that, the worse it makes you look.

      I don't mean to be harsh, but some of your statements in this thread really do suggest you aren't getting it. You can talk like this 'til you're blue in the face, the cows come home, and hell freezes over - and accomplish absolutely nothing.

      (And I absolutely agree with what umc, Suzanne, and others have said about having your girlfriend come here JUST prior to you making your "comeback". Bad move, and no, we're not stupid.)
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    • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Nameless...
      I'm sitting here saying it a hundred times. Again, I have 50 complaints out of 31,000 sales,
      Only 50 that you are aware of. What about the ones that don't file complaints. You never finished the 90k challenge. The original concepts were great, but you were going to show results of 90 days worth of work That failed,you gave away some free reports to try and make up. Than started with the next fiasco.

      Instead of coming here with a new sig promoting something that does not exist. Create a few threads giving away free value. If this place never changed owners you would not be here. They should take your war room membership and sig file way so you can not benefit from the forum right now.

      You have blinders on how you see the world from the inside. We see the world differently than you do. We are on the outside and see that you need to change instead of making another promise.. Take Claude Whitacre ,UMC and iamnamless advice they are stating facts that would help you more than hurt. Stay off the forum till you have put something together to help those you left high and dry in your last WSO. When it is done than come back.
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  • Profile picture of the author umc
    I think that the reason people are having a hard time with your comeback John, and why they can't see you as owning up to it, is because you are coming here really excited about your comeback. Your excitement is certainly great for you, but to those that feel slighted it probably comes off as a slap in the face. Yeah, you're acknowledging your wrongs, but with a side of excitement about possibilities for the future and while tooting your own horn about how you're going to make up for what you did before without having anything ready to go yet. Right now that rings hollow for those people with an ax to grind because they were left in the shadows of your unfulfilled promises in the past. I don't have one myself, but your posts here kind of rub me the wrong way and I wasn't even slighted.

    And honestly, having your girlfriend come here to roll out the red carpet (even it if it stained from your own blood) is just cheesy marketing antics. You'd do better just to say that's what it was from the both of you than to continue saying that she came here for any other reason. I mean, come on, she just happened to come here bearing your name in her username and her first thread, and then the dominoes fall into place where you come back. People aren't stupid and don't like being played.

    I'm on your list. Your first communication with me was to announce the things that you're going to do in the future, but the only thing you had ready to go was a sales pitch for your phone scripts. You really need to have those promises of freebies ready to go before you start selling. I respect your knowledge and have spoken up against people that were imputing bad intentions to you in your previous negative interactions, as I don't think anything was intentional, but whether or not it was you need to show that you can actually deliver before asking anything from others. Talk is cheap, and you know that without me telling you. So prove the haters wrong and execute on that talk. That will silence the doubters, not you coming here to defend yourself or make promises of a brighter future while expressing your excitement to be back. That's not engendering good feelings among those that aren't happy to see you, and honestly your posts in this thread and the shenanigans surrounding your reemergence aren't making me feel great about it and I was actually looking forward to it. Time to step up man and walk that talk.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by umc View Post

      I think that the reason people are having a hard time with your comeback John, and why they can't see you as owning up to it, is because you are coming here really excited about your comeback. Your excitement is certainly great for you, but to those that feel slighted it probably comes off as a slap in the face. Yeah, you're acknowledging your wrongs, but with a side of excitement about possibilities for the future and while tooting your own horn about how you're going to make up for what you did before without having anything ready to go yet. Right now that rings hollow for those people with an ax to grind because they were left in the shadows of your unfulfilled promises in the past. I don't have one myself, but your posts here kind of rub me the wrong way and I wasn't even slighted.

      And honestly, having your girlfriend come here to roll out the red carpet (even it if it stained from your own blood) is just cheesy marketing antics. You'd do better just to say that's what it was from the both of you than to continue saying that she came here for any other reason. I mean, come on, she just happened to come here bearing your name in her username and her first thread, and then the dominoes fall into place where you come back. People aren't stupid and don't like being played.

      I'm on your list. Your first communication with me was to announce the things that you're going to do in the future, but the only thing you had ready to go was a sales pitch for your phone scripts. You really need to have those promises of freebies ready to go before you start selling. I respect your knowledge and have spoken up against people that were imputing bad intentions to you in your previous negative interactions, as I don't think anything was intentional, but whether or not it was you need to show that you can actually deliver before asking anything from others. Talk is cheap, and you know that without me telling you. So prove the haters wrong and execute on that talk. That will silence the doubters, not you coming here to defend yourself or make promises of a brighter future while expressing your excitement to be back. That's not engendering good feelings among those that aren't happy to see you, and honestly your posts in this thread and the shenanigans surrounding your reemergence aren't making me feel great about it and I was actually looking forward to it. Time to step up man and walk that talk.

      I am excited about making things right, you are correct. I am excited about earning my names worth back. people have ALWAYS benefitted greatly from my work, so I am excited for them too. As for nameless... I am not going to out him and go into details but Nathan YOU SPECIFICALLY I have had chat conversations with (And still have them) , where I stayed up for hours until 2 in the morning counseling you because you were scared out of your mind by customers who were chasing you down... i am sure you are not as bad a person as they made you out to be.

      On top of that I spent even more hours advising and practically writing you entire reports via text message when you were starting your office... AND I NEVER CHARGED YOU A DIME... Today I charged someone $250 for a half hour of consultation that will end up being very worthwhile for them... You got that time and counsel for FREE

      I put in ALOT of time doing things to help people that are not for money or personal gain, I have even tried to enlist YOU in some of those efforts, but you couldnt afford the time to do something for free, even for a good cause. I'm not going to be specific. Nuff said.

      Im backin out of this thread. How soon we forget. I have acknowledged the issuies, the forum will be here next week and it will be greatly beneficial for anyone who wants to take FREE advantage of it. This isnt a pre launch, it's an announcement of an effort to make restitution for anyone who wants to participate.

      Much love guys. Yes for you too Nathan, always man.
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      • Profile picture of the author umc
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        I am excited about making things right, you are correct. I am excited about earning my names worth back. people have ALWAYS benefitted greatly from my work, so I am excited for them too. As for nameless... I am not going to out him and go into details but Nathan YOU SPECIFICALLY I have had chat conversations with (And still have them) , where I stayed up for hours until 2 in the morning counseling you because you were scared out of your mind by customers who were chasing you down... i am sure you are not as bad a person as they made you out to be.

        On top of that I spent even more hours advising and practically writing you entire reports via text message when you were starting your office... AND I NEVER CHARGED YOU A DIME... Today I charged someone $250 for a half hour of consultation that will end up being very worthwhile for them... You got that time and counsel for FREE

        I put in ALOT of time doing things to help people that are not for money or personal gain, I have even tried to enlist YOU in some of those efforts, but you couldnt afford the time to do something for free, even for a good cause. I'm not going to be specific. Nuff said.

        Im backin out of this thread. How soon we forget. I have acknowledged the issuies, the forum will be here next week and it will be greatly beneficial for anyone who wants to take FREE advantage of it. This isnt a pre launch, it's an announcement of an effort to make restitution for anyone who wants to participate.

        Much love guys. Yes for you too Nathan, always man.
        Well, you did a good job of making that reply to me about you and Nathan. You ignored everything else. Seems like JD is just going to do JD, and in doing so I'm sure that you'll help some people. You're just not doing a good job of coming back in style. Well, I guess tacky is a style. Anyway, I just tried to offer some perspective since you seem to have a hard time understanding why others might not be as giddy as you. I certainly wish you the best and was trying to help while you chose to ignore many points and just keep hammering the JD and Nathan show. Listen more than you talk (I know, hard for a telemarketer) and you might just learn something from people that were here while you were banned. Or maybe you're just more interested in speaking your truth than listening to that of others. Don't let ego get in the way of learning real lessons. It seems that your comeback needs to be about more than just righting wrongs and restoring your own name. It kind of seems like even your offers of restitution are becoming more about promoting how great you are for coming back and offering such.

        I'm just here because I find this fascinating and I always liked your stuff. I kind of identified with you and had a few conversations back in the day. Anyway, good luck. Now you can quote me and yell at Nathan some more, lol.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by umc View Post

          Well, you did a good job of making that reply to me about you and Nathan. You ignored everything else. Seems like JD is just going to do JD, and in doing so I'm sure that you'll help some people. You're just not doing a good job of coming back in style. Well, I guess tacky is a style. Anyway, I just tried to offer some perspective since you seem to have a hard time understanding why others might not be as giddy as you. I certainly wish you the best and was trying to help while you chose to ignore many points and just keep hammering the JD and Nathan show. Listen more than you talk (I know, hard for a telemarketer) and you might just learn something from people that were here while you were banned. Or maybe you're just more interested in speaking your truth than listening to that of others. Don't let ego get in the way of learning real lessons. It seems that your comeback needs to be about more than just righting wrongs and restoring your own name. It kind of seems like even your offers of restitution are becoming more about promoting how great you are for coming back and offering such.

          I'm just here because I find this fascinating and I always liked your stuff. I kind of identified with you and had a few conversations back in the day. Anyway, good luck. Now you can quote me and yell at Nathan some more, lol.
          Thank you, didnt mean for the defensiveness to come off that way. What you are saying makes sense. lol. I dont want to yell at Nathan, this stuff really doesnt turn me on at all.

          Im just going to do the right thing and not defend even though its hard to hold your tongue, being called names, and listening to people "politely" make suggestions about your character. There are higher principles that run these situations and I will operate according to them, and in that TEACH some young people some stuff they think they might know and dont, maybe even some old pro's. My excitement is because I woke up this morning and I was a Warrior again, didnt mean to seem overly enthusiastic. But if you had a chance to earn the good will attached to your name back after all that slamming last year, and make up for your mistakes...you would be excited. Thank you for a rational post. You make sense.
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            Nameless...

            I'm owning up to it and handling it man...I don't get what you think I'm not getting. Seriously bro. You come off like I think I don't have to own up and handle my issues. I'm sitting here saying it a hundred times. Again, I have 50 complaints out of 31,000 sales, and I'm handling them. If you dont want to accept me back into your graces then dont... I am actually reconsidering how graceful I actually think of you as, and that bothers me.

            In any event, Im sitting here handling my issues as we speak. I dont know why you continually say Im not taking it seriously when thats exactly what I came here to do. Tell people we are going to reopen the forum that was lost and issue refunds. WTF bro?. Am I doing that for my health? Would you prefer that I go nameless and come here just to take anonymous advantage of the various markets and not be a friend with a name to the forum?

            Life is what you perceive... Can you not perceive when something is not advantageous to a person, like coming here under my own name and trying to do the right thing, the HARD way...? I guarantee that half the people who have been banned here for their own stupidly are now respected gurus with new names, and who never owned up to their failures, and tried to do it the way Im doing it. THE RIGHT WAY I think. End of my case man. Think what you want.

            Ps. Just because some guy hates you because you wont refund his five grand for services rendered and he is complaining, does that make you bad? You ever been in a refund dispute?

            I think Im doing alot better than that by trying to resolve the issue and over deliver.

            Nothing I say to you is going to change your disposition even if you see my point. i do hear in your words that you dont believe in me but that you havent entirely thrown me out, so thank you.
            Your definition of owning up to it is sad stories, pity parties and blaming other events. You'd be better off just saying "I'm sorry, I really messed up but will try to make it up to you all" and leave it at that. The reason I don't believe you, is because you still have excuses... if you can't see that then you need to reread through this thread. If you don't see how your apology seems insincere because you pushing the blame on other events, then you either lack common sense or are blind. I'm wanting to see an apology that has no excuses or ties into it... that's all... if I see that then its all good and I'll just be waiting to see how things go for you.

            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            As for nameless... I am not going to out him and go into details but Nathan YOU SPECIFICALLY I have had chat conversations with (And still have them) , where I stayed up for hours until 2 in the morning counseling you because you were scared out of your mind by customers who were chasing you down... i am sure you are not as bad a person as they made you out to be.

            On top of that I spent even more hours advising and practically writing you entire reports via text message when you were starting your office... AND I NEVER CHARGED YOU A DIME... Today I charged someone $250 for a half hour of consultation that will end up being very worthwhile for them... You got that time and counsel for FREE

            I put in ALOT of time doing things to help people that are not for money or personal gain, I have even tried to enlist YOU in some of those efforts, but you couldnt afford the time to do something for free, even for a good cause. I'm not going to be specific. Nuff said.
            LMAO you're straight up lying now. I promise you, you don't even have my cell phone number, you've never texted me, you've never given me some free report via text. We've had a few skype conversations.. we don't STILL have them. You've been too chicken shit to come to me personally, the only way you will, is to respond to me through this thread.

            I've never been dishonest about my issues with customers... I used to never give refunds, I had a NO refund policy on any work performed. I've pissed off a lot of people before I even started my office, and I've learned a lot. I've had a full blown AG investigation over 3 complaints. I've had 8 total customers who have filed BBB complaints and probably about another 10 that were very unhappy. I've had 3 civil suits directly related to work performed. The first step I took was to change my refund policy, because taking a loss on work performed is way less than the time involved dealing with legal issues and arbitration or mediation. The second step I took was to reach out to everyone that was unhappy, or complained... whether I felt that everything was good on my end or not, I reached out to them and it went a long way. The third step I took, was to call every single customer I've had and find out what I need to step up, I asked for them to be completely honest about what they thought could be improved, if there was anything they were unhappy about, etc. I found out that the people I considered happy customers, were for the most part happy but there were common issues many of them shared with me. The 4th step, is my current step to improve systems to make sure projects are completed on time and even ahead of schedule, continuous customer outreach to understand issues well after the main project is delivered.

            The advice I've given you in this thread is real... its based on REAL experience not just a plan. I've dealt with my issues head on.

            Anyway, nice job on the mudslinging... I promise you that you don't want me to sling some back. I've just been trying to help... If you thought the stuff that came out before was bad, you have no idea... I'll hold back for now but you should really think about what I've said, none of it was really attacking you.

            And yeah... I don't have to donate reports to WSOs even if it's for a good cause. I sponsor children through compassion personally and through the business. I do a lot of donations, fundraisers and other things for countless animal rescue organizations... I make it mandatory that anyone that works for me does 10 hours of volunteering each month for different causes. What you do for people with cancer, and other problems is great, I have no issue with that, I don't even know why you're making it an issue.

            The biggest problem I have with you John... and if you fixed it I'd be in full support of you... the problem is when it comes to apologizing it's not YOU taking FULL responsibility, but when it comes to everything else it's all about you and not other people. I don't need to know about the good you've done, I don't need to know how much you charged someone today, I don't need to know any of that... what I need to know, if you even give a damn, is that you accept blame and want to make it better, not that the WSO was successful, not that you didn't have a refund policy, none of that matters. What matters is that you see that the issue was you, not any of the surrounding events. Once you can own up to THAT, then I think you have a real chance for change but if you don't truly see that then there's nothing left to discuss.
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            • Profile picture of the author nathanjacobs
              Well, I was ready to give John a chance. I never asked for a refund, and never will. I've gotten a lot of value out of John's posts and I do feel like I got more than I paid for the WSO by reading all his posts over the time I have been here.

              But the second you wrote something about iamnameless that talked about how he came to you worried about something, I lost all willingness to want to learn from you again. Saying that about him portrays him as weak, and from all of the posts I have ever read he seems like a really smart guy who takes care of business. That sentence could hurt his reputation here and that's not cool.

              Good luck man. I know you can make a comeback. That one was a little too far. I even thought iamnameless would have given you a chance a few posts ago. Not now it looks like.
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              • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
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                Promise Big.
                Deliver Bigger.
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              • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
                Originally Posted by nathanjacobs View Post

                Well,..... But the second you wrote something about iamnameless that talked about how he came to you worried about something, I lost all willingness to want to learn from you again. Saying that about him portrays him as weak, and from all of the posts I have ever read he seems like a really smart guy who takes care of business. That sentence could hurt his reputation here and that's not cool.
                Not to mention that's an ethical violation ..... to mention one's confidential conversations that takes place in a client vs. coach setting.

                Not only was that move an unethical "sucker punch", it portrays JDs complete lack of professional accumen (as do the excuses also).

                Ethics aside, it's a "business 101" mistake... one for which Nathan can now seek damages.

                "Oops."
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Hey john what's up?

    I haven't read the thread but welcome back.
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  • Profile picture of the author digichik
    Welcome back John. I know that you took the time to reach out and help me, at a difficult time in my life, no charge, only wanting to see me succeed. I know that many of your posts, free information, were more valuable than many of the WSOs I paid for. I know that, I too am flawed, and have needed forgiveness and received it.


    I wish you much success in rebuilding your reputation and business.


    Your positive posts made this forum a much more interesting place.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Id rather have County Durham back!!!
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    Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author squidface
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveSki

      Moderated: You quoted a previously banned user, whom we just banned again under an alias. I didn't want to just delete your whole post because you put a lot of thought/effort into it. You can delete it if you feel your post is no longer relevant with the offensive post you responded to removed. Your choice.
      Have a heart. John has freely given a lot of value to others and comparing him to a killer is extremely unfair. Or are you just saying that John is a Psychopath?

      Not all Psychopaths are bad.

      In “The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Success” we learn that Unlike a BAD PSYCHOPATH, some are able to dial up or down qualities such as ruthlessness, fearlessness, conscience and empathy to get the very best out of himself - and others - in a wide range of situations. See: Why psychopaths are more successful - Telegraph

      John may have displayed some Psychopathic traits but he is definitely one of the good ones and deserves to be given the chance to redeem himself. He has been very successful in the past, has helped a lot of people and will no doubt continue to help a lot of people.

      Haven’t you ever experienced personal challenges and screwed up while under great stress? Have a hart and give the guy a chance. He may be a bit of a Psychopath but I’ve never seen him attack anyone like others are now doing to him.

      Are you a psychopath? Take the test at www.thegoodpsychopath.com
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Sue, I lost some of my mailing list in all of this, and being here saying this at the WF is helping me reach those customers, in order to make it right with them. Please understand that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Isn't this mostly a discussion that belongs in the OT forum where opinions can be spewed forth? There really is a difference between advice and opinion.

    Those offering advice here have offered it without feeling the need to repeat the same thing ad nauseam.

    Which is more likely to be listened to and taken to heart?

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Indeed, this has nothing to do with offline marketing, but however it is, I am fine personally. I understand its going to be a road. I am thankful for the opportunity.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Sue, I lost some of my mailing list in all of this, and being here saying this at the WF is helping me reach those customers, in order to make it right with them. Please understand that.
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Indeed, this has nothing to do with offline marketing, but however it is, I am fine personally. I understand its going to be a road. I am thankful for the opportunity.
      I think it probably was the right place for you to do it, I just don't agree with how. The offline section is where everyone knows you and whether they were a customer or not they certainly did follow you so it makes perfect sense to me.

      I just wish you were able to see my point but there's no need to keep going on about it, just do your thing, that will be more telling than any speculation at this point. You may think I'm just throwing sticks and stones at you but that's definitely not the case.

      Time will reveal all I suppose.
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      • Profile picture of the author misterme
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I just wish you were able to see my point
        If he were able to see and agree with your point, there wouldn't have been any need to make the point.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    50 ÷ 31,000 = 0.0016129032258 = losing a reputation?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      50 ÷ 31,000 = 0.0016129032258 = losing a reputation?


      "I've been in banks 31,000 times in my life, and only robbed 50. And now I have a reputation as a bank robber? It's not fair. I only robbed a bank 0.0016% of the times I've been in one."
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        "I've been in banks 31,000 times in my life, and only robbed 50. And now I have a reputation as a bank robber? It's not fair. I only robbed a bank 0.0016% of the times I've been in one."
        That's sort of how I meant it. It's a small percentage of revenues to have drama about
        refunding or settling. And seemingly a lot of revenue to play with: 31k x selling price?

        REVENUES ARE NOT YOUR MONEY UNTIL THE DUST HAS SETTLED AND EVERYBODY IS HAPPY.

        I used to administer civil cases resolved via arbitration instead of court. Most were silly
        that they could not be resolved. (Why I did not go on to law school.) Many of the
        cases were commercial construction related. A lot of arbitrators were guys who
        founded medium to large construction firms and in 30 years never had a dispute
        that went to court or arbitration.

        One such gentleman served as arbitrator on one case and was so disgusted by the
        parties and their attorneys that he never served as arbitrator again.

        Maybe I've become jaded about leopards changing spots. I met a guy who was in
        prison for a 30 year sentence (habitual criminal, juvie record, embezzlement, some
        violent crimes). He even wrote a book about his turnaround and now appears to be
        a productive member of society. Married, kids, suburbs... My gut reaction to him
        is very, very negative. I think he just did not want to be in jail anymore and it's all
        a mask.

        Truth percolates to the top.

        Dan

        (My view in general, not about JD specifically - except the 31k and fifty data
        and settling instead of perhaps harming and losing your rep.)
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    This is all speculation on my part just based on what I observe in these threads, and I don't know John personally, but it looks to me from a distance that he is really good at cold calling, selling, building enthusiasm, getting people fired up, etc., and not so great in follow up and fulfillment. It is a common set of personality traits I've seen in many, many, great salespeople I've worked with or managed.

    Ir seems simple--I think if he focused on his strengths, and delegated his "non-strengths" to a competent detail person/support team that can work on the back end, he'd be unbeatable.

    Once I read a book or article that said companies need a "Mr. Outside" and a "Mr. Inside."

    Mr. Outside is great with the public, the press, the investors, socializing, schmoozing, selling, making speeches, appearing on TV, driving revenue, etc., but gets bored with delivery.

    Mr. Inside is good at detail, follow-up, organization, scheduling, etc., and hates talking to people outside the company.

    It is rare to find both sets of qualities in the same person.

    John seems to be a classic Mr. Outside. He needs a Mr. or Ms. Inside to handle fulfillment.

    All this may seem obvious to him and others, but a lot of this drama can be avoided completely with structural changes to his business.

    Make sense, or do you want a refund on this post?
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      This is all speculation on my part just based on what I observe in these threads, and I don't know John personally, but it looks to me from a distance that he is really good at cold calling, selling, building enthusiasm, getting people fired up, etc., and not so great in follow up and fulfillment. It is a common set of personality traits I've seen in many, many, great salespeople I've worked with or managed.

      Ir seems simple--I think if he focused on his strengths, and delegated his "non-strengths" to a competent detail person/support team that can work on the back end, he'd be unbeatable.

      Once I read a book or article that said companies need a "Mr. Outside" and a "Mr. Inside."

      Mr. Outside is great with the public, the press, the investors, socializing, schmoozing, selling, making speeches, appearing on TV, driving revenue, etc., but gets bored with delivery.

      Mr. Inside is good at detail, follow-up, organization, scheduling, etc., and hates talking to people outside the company.

      It is rare to find both sets of qualities in the same person.

      John seems to be a classic Mr. Outside. He needs a Mr. or Ms. Inside to handle fulfillment.

      All this may seem obvious to him and others, but a lot of this drama can be avoided completely with structural changes to his business.

      Make sense, or do you want a refund on this post?
      Right on.
      CEO and COO
      President and VP of Operations or Operations Manager...
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    The Circus has its PT Barnum back
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  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    Stockholm Syndrome anyone?
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    • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
      Originally Posted by Rearden View Post

      Stockholm Syndrome anyone?
      Nope, not even close or a reasonable analogy... John contributed a lot of useful information before the fall. And I bought the WSO before the fall as a way of saying thanks for all the useful information he had contributed.

      What had the Stockholm captors contributed before the ":event"?

      Marvin
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      • Profile picture of the author Rearden
        Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

        Nope, not even close or a reasonable analogy... John contributed a lot of useful information before the fall. And I bought the WSO before the fall as a way of saying thanks for all the useful information he had contributed.

        What had the Stockholm captors contributed before the ":event"?

        Marvin
        Please refer to Claude Whitacre's bank robbery analogy above.

        I think everyone here possesses grace and would accept an apology if done the right way.

        Lord knows everyone at one point or another has screwed up.

        Do the right thing -- make amends and move on.

        Either way, as the old saying goes:

        "Any publicity is good publicity."
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

        Nope, not even close or a reasonable analogy... John contributed a lot of useful information before the fall. And I bought the WSO before the fall as a way of saying thanks for all the useful information he had contributed.

        What had the Stockholm captors contributed before the ":event"?

        Marvin
        Stockholm Syndrome isn't just related to the original event.. I think he's talking about it in general. In the original standoff, they contributed by not attacking them violently, the hostages refused help and defended them lol. It's a psychological issue where victims have empathy and some emotional connection to the people abusing them usually in a non-violent way.

        I think it's a reasonable analogy. About as reasonable as the thinking that as long as you contribute prior to doing something wrong, the wrong doing is okay. Not that I agree with that line of thinking, but I find it within reason for people to think like that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Stockholm Syndrome isn't just related to the original event.. I think he's talking about it in general. In the original standoff, they contributed by not attacking them violently, the hostages refused help and defended them lol. It's a psychological issue where victims have empathy and some emotional connection to the people abusing them usually in a non-violent way.

          I think it's a reasonable analogy. About as reasonable as the thinking that as long as you contribute prior to doing something wrong, the wrong doing is okay. Not that I agree with that line of thinking, but I find it within reason for people to think like that.
          I will admit I am a poor communicator... I tend to say things in sound bytes with the expectation people have the background to understand my meaning. Sometimes that is not the case.

          So... I am not defending John per se. But I am pointing out his many contributions to this forum for quite a few years before this all happened.

          I haven't check the history of the people (non-hostages) involved prior to that standoff. Perhaps they did contribute, and maybe not. For people thinking the Stockhom situation is relevant, maybe they should provide some facts showing how it relates to this situation rather than depending on innuendo.

          A fuss has been made about refunds and not delivering what he had promised, all valid points.

          And as someone who DID have skin in the game of buying the WSO, I already explained why I did buy it and how a refund is irrelevant to me.

          So far, I haven't heard (or maybe not noticed) anyone who did buy the WSO complaining. Most of the complaints I've heard sound like they are from people who are disappointed in how the whole thing turned out, but with no skin in that game.

          And their advice sounds mostly pretty sound... when said once. More than that and it starts to sound like a cause rather than trying to be helpful.

          This seems to be a perfect example of other people I know who got in over their heads but were not bad people. Bad decisions were made along the way, and they learned from them.

          And yes, I've been WAY over my head in the past. But I got out not only because I was hustling, but I also had *help* from my friends. And yes, they all knew I had messed up to get in those situations .

          Hope that helps clarify my position.

          Marvin
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

            I will admit I am a poor communicator... I tend to say things in sound bytes with the expectation people have the background to understand my meaning. Sometimes that is not the case.

            So... I am not defending John per se. But I am pointing out his many contributions to this forum for quite a few years before this all happened.

            I haven't check the history of the people (non-hostages) involved prior to that standoff. Perhaps they did contribute, and maybe not. For people thinking the Stockhom situation is relevant, maybe they should provide some facts showing how it relates to this situation rather than depending on innuendo.

            A fuss has been made about refunds and not delivering what he had promised, all valid points.

            And as someone who DID have skin in the game of buying the WSO, I already explained why I did buy it and how a refund is irrelevant to me.

            So far, I haven't heard (or maybe not noticed) anyone who did buy the WSO complaining. Most of the complaints I've heard sound like they are from people who are disappointed in how the whole thing turned out, but with no skin in that game.

            And their advice sounds mostly pretty sound... when said once. More than that and it starts to sound like a cause rather than trying to be helpful.

            This seems to be a perfect example of other people I know who got in over their heads but were not bad people. Bad decisions were made along the way, and they learned from them.

            And yes, I've been WAY over my head in the past. But I got out not only because I was hustling, but I also had *help* from my friends. And yes, they all knew I had messed up to get in those situations .

            Hope that helps clarify my position.

            Marvin
            All fine points... my point isn't related just to the Stockholm heist, but just stating that Stockholm Syndrome is certainly relevant. You're thinking that it is only one incident that happened because of the name, but there are hundreds and I thought it was as relevant as anything you, Kay, John, or I have said.
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              By John??? Or by nameless "Warriors"???

              IN MY OPINION, a member who has been helpful here for many years before he did a crash and burn - who has been thanked 6500+ times....deserves a chance.



              Policing was done AT THE TIME - but appoint yourself chief of police and go for it. Whatever....I'm done.
              If it were a member you didn't particularly care for, or someone that was against a certain group of people here, then you wouldn't think they deserved a chance. The amount of "thanks" somebody received being used as a gauge of what the person deserves or doesn't deserve is mind blowing... I've been here for a while and haven't heard something so ridiculous.

              The reason he was unbanned is because the new owners didn't know why he was banned, saw that he was active and gave him member status again. They didn't find out until afterwards why he was banned, and since it was too late they're letting it ride and will ban him again if there's anything fishy going on.

              I'm pretty sure they reached out to him about it too.

              Like I said before... time will reveal all. Whether he should have received a second chance or not, is irrelevant now that he has it. IMO he received a lot of second chances... but that's not the point. Since there's nothing anyone can do about it now, we might as well drop the senseless debate, wait and see. Hope for the best or hope for the worst... I personally don't care what happens at this point, I just didn't like the way he went about all this. Hopefully he takes it seriously and does well.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

                "get destroyed"??? I *hope* you are greatly underestimating the intelligence of the people here (including the moderators.).
                I think you might be the one underestimating the intelligence of the mods. The mods had nothing to do with this decision.

                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                The reason he was unbanned is because the new owners didn't know why he was banned, saw that he was active and gave him member status again. They didn't find out until afterwards why he was banned, and since it was too late they're letting it ride and will ban him again if there's anything fishy going on.
                Quoted for truth.

                The unbanning had nothing to do with past contributions. It was simply a matter of being someone who spent a good amount of money posting and running WSO's. Simple as that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
    John if you took people's money and never provided the product or service you robbed their money. Simples - just give it back. Stop talking about yourself and making excuses, just put it right and cut the BS. I don't care if you have been a warrior longer than me because I've never took any bodies money and not given them what they paid for.
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    • Right actions in the future are the best apologies for bad actions in the past.

      from Tryon Edwards



      from Psychology Today ( http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...-power-apology)

      Intention and Attitude

      There are also two important underlying aspects of an apology—intention and attitude. These are communicated nonverbally to the person to whom you are apologizing. If your apology does not come sincerely, it will not feel meaningful to the other person.

      Bad Apologies from (https://ccr.byu.edu/content/power-apology)

      Bad apologies are usually patronizing, staged, insincere, or generalized, and do not take responsibility. Bad apologies can strain relationships and cause bitterness to remain.

      sorry JD, but you turned 1 Apology into 2 !

      1. an apology for your past WSO or whatever you did
      2. and now for your way you went about it
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

        Right actions in the future are the best apologies for bad actions in the past.

        from Tryon Edwards



        from Psychology Today ( The Power of Apology | Psychology Today)

        Intention and Attitude

        There are also two important underlying aspects of an apology—intention and attitude. These are communicated nonverbally to the person to whom you are apologizing. If your apology does not come sincerely, it will not feel meaningful to the other person.

        Bad Apologies from (https://ccr.byu.edu/content/power-apology)

        Bad apologies are usually patronizing, staged, insincere, or generalized, and do not take responsibility. Bad apologies can strain relationships and cause bitterness to remain.

        sorry JD, but you turned 1 Apology into 2 !

        1. an apology for your past WSO or whatever you did
        2. and now for your way you went about it
        Also:

        "1.) Responsibility
        2.) Remorse
        3.) Redress
        4.) No Repetition"



        (These steps are from Dr. Laura.)
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Ghenghis Khan forgave Jamukha who fomented revolt against his rule.

    I learned a great deal from John`s posts and I hope he stays.
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  • Profile picture of the author Climb Online
    My take on this kerfuffle is that JD is kinda like that one uncle ( insert any relative or family friend) that almost everyone has.

    They show up at get together's, have great stories and even sage words, but you know by the time the
    party is over your gonna slip them a Benjamin for gas money or rent or whatever the latest run of bad luck brings. LOL.
    Signature

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    - Roy H. Williams

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    • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
      Originally Posted by susie haynes View Post

      My take on this kerfuffle is that JD is kinda like that one uncle ( insert any relative or family friend) that almost everyone has.

      They show up at get together's, have great stories and even sage words, but you know by the time the
      party is over your gonna slip them a Benjamin for gas money or rent or whatever the latest run of bad luck brings. LOL.
      That's why he just needs a support team to complement his strengths. I forget who said it, but on one WSO alone he had 31,000 sales (IIRC). Let's say it was $10. Even after affiliate commissions, there should be plenty to hire a VA. Especially when there is so much help available in WF on how to do just that.

      With the right help, he could generate millions from WF alone.
      Signature
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      - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

    it looks to me from a distance that he is really good at cold calling, selling, building enthusiasm, getting people fired up, etc., and not so great in follow up and fulfillment...
    a lot of this drama can be avoided completely with structural changes to his business.
    Make sense, or do you want a refund on this post?
    The error in that logic is that you're assuming JD would want to bother with having someone do the follow up and fulfillment. He may not. When he was allegedly up to his neck and overwhelmed, what stopped him from getting help then, you may wonder?
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      The error in that logic is that you're assuming JD would want to bother with having someone do the follow up and fulfillment. He may not. When he was allegedly up to his neck and overwhelmed, what stopped him from getting help then, you may wonder?
      My thought too. This may be a solution going forward, but it wasn't the reason for the previous problems.

      And have you guys noticed that John isn't replying to every post now?
      Eventually, we'll all lose interest...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Good point, Claude. When people who don't know me at all starting posting what I "think"....I have to chuckle and go find something interesting to do.
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        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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        • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
          Originally Posted by misterme View Post

          The error in that logic is that you're assuming JD would want to bother with having someone do the follow up and fulfillment. He may not. When he was allegedly up to his neck and overwhelmed, what stopped him from getting help then, you may wonder?
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          My thought too. This may be a solution going forward, but it wasn't the reason for the previous problems.

          And have you guys noticed that John isn't replying to every post now?
          Eventually, we'll all lose interest...
          I hear ya, and I don't know what went on. It's all speculative commentary from my chair.

          I suggested it because it seemed like every post in the thread was back and forth on the symptoms but not the problem.

          You say it wasn't the reason for the previous problems, so what was it? The guy has tons of experience with WSOs. He wouldn't just bail in the middle of one. Whatever the case, he clearly needs support help, or we'll be having this conversation in September.

          I don't know what stopped him before. Maybe he doesn't even know. It doesn't matter. All that matters is he obviously has talent. Let's help him build around that.
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          - Jack Trout
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

            in the thread was back and forth on the symptoms but not the problem.

            You say it wasn't the reason for the previous problems, so what was it?
            The pain of not fulfilling was not as great as the pain of fulfilling.
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            • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              The pain of not fulfilling was not as great as the pain of fulfilling.
              I've seen salespeople like this many times. They shut down when it comes to service. It bores them to tears. They like the adrenalin of making the kill. He fits the profile: Hunters, not farmers.

              If I were his life coach, and I'm half kidding here because most "life coaches" are messed up, I'd tell him to set himself up where he never has to worry about fulfillment.

              Pay someone else to fulfill, run the forums, whatever, then move on to the next WSO or whatever. He could have 5 of them running at once throwing off cash.

              If someone were to say, well he just didn't want to do it that way, I say why wouldn't he? He's got the experience. He would know it would take a few people to take care of that volume. So it's got to be some other reason but again I'm just goofing around speculating. It just seems a shame to waste talent.

              Read this:
              https://www.facebook.com/john.carlto...04475139426874
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              Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
              - Jack Trout
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                If someone were to say, well he just didn't want to do it that way, I say why wouldn't he? He's got the experience. He would know it would take a few people to take care of that volume. So it's got to be some other reason but again I'm just goofing around speculating. It just seems a shame to waste talent.

                Read this:
                https://www.facebook.com/john.carlto...04475139426874
                Yeah, Carlton is a class act.

                (Now back to kicking John Durham)
                It isn't about staying with your expertise. John wasn't outside his area of expertise. He didn't deliver what he could have easily delivered.

                Durham is good enough (I certainly consider him as good as I am in selling), that 3 hours of great content on selling (or whatever the subject was) could have been recorded in 5 hours...including the recording time. For coaching? It simply doesn't take that much time to deliver.

                For example, I'm constructing an 8 hour webinar series on selling. It will take me a total of maybe 20 hours to put it all together, including recording time. (Not including construction of Power Point slides).

                It takes a couple of weeks to write an entire book. Not a 10 page Kindle book, but a real book. It doesn't take that long.

                On some video series I done, it took longer to construct the sales letter (or sales video) than the actual deliverables.

                For 4 years I had a newsletter that I wrote by myself, 16 pages a month. It took me about 20 hours a month to research, write, edit, format, and mail. Eventually, I got tired of doing it. And I E-mailed about 180 people, each paying me $39.95 a month...telling them that I was going to stop. Yep, that's over $7,000 a month...that I got tired of delivering.

                But I didn't charge anyone after I stopped delivering. So, nobody hates me (that I know of)

                You know why I stopped? The pain of delivery was greater than my desire for the money.

                It wasn't that John couldn't deliver. The pain of delivery was just more than his desire to deliver what was paid for. And the pain of refunding the money, was greater than his desire to play fair. Everyone has problems. Almost all of us have suffered great losses.

                But we keep our promises. And to successful business owners, that's an absolute.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                Wow! Over 4,000 views. Congrats are in order to Rus Sels and company.
                Way to go, Russ!

                Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                It just seems a shame to waste talent.
                I know. I know, Joe. Those pesky old ethics just get in the way. Seems some folks here insist on putting such things as Behavior and Trustworthiness ahead of talent and money. It boggles the mind.

                My oh my...what can you do?

                I know. let's have a little music to lighten the atmosphere. Here's an old standard that seems to fit.the occasion. Everybody dance now.

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                • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                  Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

                  Wow! Over 4,000 views. Congrats are in order to Rus Sels and company.
                  Way to go, Russ!

                  I know. I know, Joe. Those pesky old ethics just get in the way. Seems some folks here insist on putting such things as Behavior and Trustworthiness ahead of talent and money. It boggles the mind.

                  My oh my...what can you do?

                  I know. let's have a little music to lighten the atmosphere. Here's an old standard that seems to fit.the occasion. Everybody dance now.

                  Al Wilson - The Snake (lyrics) - YouTube
                  I'm not saying put talent and money ahead of trustworthiness, etc. I mean, look at me. I'm a dead ringer for Brad Pitt. I mean exact. And did I cash in on my over-powering good looks? No. At least, not yet.

                  Seriously, I get that his pain was greater or not greater, etc, I understand. And I don't know the WSO world, but the way he did them feels like those local businesses that give 75% off Groupons and then are stunned when they get swamped, and THEN DO IT AGAIN. That doesn't make sense to me given his experience.

                  UNLESS it's all a long con.
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                  - Jack Trout
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                  • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
                    Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                    I'm not saying put talent and money ahead of trustworthiness, etc. I mean, look at me. I'm a dead ringer for Brad Pitt. I mean exact. And did I cash in on my over-powering good looks? No. At least, not yet.

                    Seriously, I get that his pain was greater or not greater, etc, I understand. And I don't know the WSO world, but the way he did them feels like those local businesses that give 75% off Groupons and then are stunned when they get swamped, and THEN DO IT AGAIN. That doesn't make sense to me given his experience.

                    UNLESS it's all a long con.
                    I'm sorry, Joe... you handsome devil. I was pickin' on you a bit

                    You're a sales guy. Me, too. I'm an old sales guy. A number of posters/members here have sold for a living, so they'll understand this bit of truth.

                    The one thing a salesperson must maintain...at all costs...is integrity.

                    You do whatever you need to do...to maintain integrity between you and the customer, even if it costs you sometimes. You do it because it's the right thing to do and it would bother you to the point of sleeplessness and other things, if you didn't.

                    Any of you sales guys/gals disagree with this?

                    Joe, I don't have the answers to the questions that you're asking, but I do recognize the absence of integrity when it's presented.

                    "UNLESS it's all a long con."

                    Without a commitment to integrity, what else can it be?
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ... John Durham swims back into the pond of still waters.
    Signature

    .

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    What really boggles my mind is the number 31,000 sales keeps popping up and allegedly, a cheap WSO (looks like a 3-price tier that ended at $49). There's certainly been enough time since John was banned to make reparations to the measly 50 people who are unhappy, if that's all there really was. What's so hard about knocking off those refund requests one by one until they're done before he returned to get back to doing business here?

    As for the no refund policy, that's pure BS. That WSO still exists, although closed, and

    Hi Langdon,

    Yeah there is a 30 day money back guarantee. I need to add that to the copy.

    Thanks for the reminder!
    (regarding the refund guarantee) Wow Langdon, you just increased my sales potential!

    Can't believe I forgot to add that!

    Thanks again!
    John posted an email address in the members forum for all refund requests and then deleted the post. The email given was xxxxxx@gmail.com

    To no surprise, he has ignored emails sent there as well, so I opened a PayPal dispute and provided screen shots of his sales page (with the guarantee) and his post in the forum before he deleted it.

    I suggest everyone who wants a refund to open a PayPal dispute. If anything, it will definitely "red flag" his account and force PayPal to take notice.
    Still no response on my refund request ... looks like I will have to escalate my PayPal dispute. Also, all refund requests in the members forum are being deleted.
    Then the girlfriend has a post in the closed WSO defending her boyfriend, again lying about the refund policy, which John clearly stated above.

    I read the ad copy. I don't see a refund policy anywhere on it. John did run the coaching forum for 30 days, as promised in the ad copy. The proof of that is on the forum itself, and it looks to me like he provided a bunch of content, personal guidance, and useful resources, after looking at the forum itself. It is HIGHLY comprehensive. It is not customary to refund someone on services rendered, and for him to have granted someone access to his private private training area would be considered a service in my book.

    I see a lot of damage has been done to him, and I see alot of people bashing him on the refund subject... but when I read the ad copy I don't see a refund policy, and when I look at the forum it does appear he was going above and beyond. It looks like someone started screaming for a refund, where there wasn't one advertised then others just started jumping on board... I don't know about his other WSO's but the complaints on this one don't seem to be fair or valid. The trueprosperityforum IS being reopened this week and he is going to try to make everyone happy after a years absence, but honestly I don't see where he did anything other than what his ad copy said here. It was an unfair campaign against him in my book, as it pertains to this particular WSO. One can argue, however it doesn't erase the fact the the argument is based on a refund policy that doesnt exist.
    Her post was posted on 18th June 2014, 01:02 PM, well after that WSO was closed and it is a lie, clearly intended once again to act as shill for John. When a customer asked John how long they would get support in the forum, he replied:

    The forum will be perpetual and ongoing, the training will be as well, as you will be able to ask questions perpetually.. The forum content grows daily as does the community, making this an information investment that grows in value over time.
    I'd say that's pretty clear evidence that there was a refund policy in place, that he chose to ignore it and that he's lying about it here and that his girlfriend is lying also. Does that sound like redemption to you?
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    Wow talk about a pile on.

    Whether or not I forgive someone has more to do with who I am than who they are.

    IMHO - If you feel like you lost money to John, let him know and ask for the money back. If he doesn't provide it, let others know about that. He was allowed back on the forum, so try to work it out.

    If you didn't lose any money to John, then you have no dog in the fight.

    And if you think John should use the exact words you want him to use or else you will hold a grudge, I urge you to rethink the position.

    Everyone says things differently. Grudges and offense do no good for anyone.

    Sure - decide never to do business with him again. The group attack that is happening here is just not needed, and will do ZERO to resolve the situation.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      Wow talk about a pile on.

      Whether or not I forgive someone has more to do with who I am than who they are.
      ......
      Actually, at this point, I wouldn't buy a piece of bubble gum from JD or his girlfriend. Pretty audacious to come back and say "Wow, I'm a Warrior" and then lie through his teeth at this pathetic ruse of a redemption. I took a few moments to read the WSO in question.

      Read This
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post


      Whether or not I forgive someone has more to do with who I am than who they are.


      If you didn't lose any money to John, then you have no dog in the fight.

      And if you think John should use the exact words you want him to use or else you will hold a grudge, I urge you to rethink the position.

      Sure - decide never to do business with him again. The group attack that is happening here is just not needed, and will do ZERO to resolve the situation.
      I don't know if you're passively aiming this at me, but if you are, I'll respond. If you aren't, then maybe I can clarify for others who may be thinking what you posted.

      It doesn't matter to me who forgives John... That's great that you do. I have no problems with it if everyone forgives him.

      There's a lot of things lost here, and money is just one of those things. I never lost tangible money to John, but I did lose time trying to help him. Time, trust, and money are things people lost, and I believe that money is the least valuable of those 3 things. Everyone has a right to be in the discussion no matter what their stance on the issue is.

      I care about the exact words he used to apologize, which came off more opportunistic than sincere, along with the excuses tied to it. I don't want to see a script he uses to apologize, I just wish it didn't come across the way it did because I genuinely want him to switch things around and do well.

      I also don't really see a group attack on him personally. I can easily forgive him, but I don't really think he cares about forgiveness, and lets face it, I'm not really his target audience anyway.

      This discussion goes far beyond money.... I wish the majority on this forum could see beyond the dollar signs, it would be a much better place. It's not just an issue of refunds IMO... the bigger issue is trust.
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      • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I don't know if you're passively aiming this at me, but if you are, I'll respond. If you aren't, then maybe I can clarify for others who may be thinking what you posted.

        It doesn't matter to me who forgives John... That's great that you do. I have no problems with it if everyone forgives him.

        There's a lot of things lost here, and money is just one of those things. I never lost tangible money to John, but I did lose time trying to help him. Time, trust, and money are things people lost, and I believe that money is the least valuable of those 3 things. Everyone has a right to be in the discussion no matter what their stance on the issue is.

        I care about the exact words he used to apologize, which came off more opportunistic than sincere, along with the excuses tied to it. I don't want to see a script he uses to apologize, I just wish it didn't come across the way it did because I genuinely want him to switch things around and do well.

        I also don't really see a group attack on him personally. I can easily forgive him, but I don't really think he cares about forgiveness, and lets face it, I'm not really his target audience anyway.

        This discussion goes far beyond money.... I wish the majority on this forum could see beyond the dollar signs, it would be a much better place. It's not just an issue of refunds IMO... the bigger issue is trust.
        I am definitely not pointing you out. Just looking over the thread and it just seems like a gang-attack. That is just my perspective.

        My whole point is that none of this will make a bit of difference. I'm talking about the outcome. Here are the outcomes:

        1) This thread will scroll into the history books.
        2) John will participate here.
        3) People who hang on to negative emotions will be carrying them around. John will not be affected.
        4) No one will have any money or time back. In fact, everyone is using even more time bashing.

        This whole entire process is completely unproductive. Not only that, all the bad feelings people are experiencing. Is it really worth it?

        For me, when I get mad about stuff or am on the negative side of something, it just throws off my whole mojo and makes me less productive.

        Once I do the cost/benefit analysis...it just isn't worth it and doesn't make WF a better place in any way.

        Has this thread accomplished anything?
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

          Has this thread accomplished anything? Anything?
          Yes it has. For those who were mulling over John's posts in this thread and the involvement of the shill girlfriend and trying to decide his sincerity and readiness to be welcomed back with open arms, it's been definitive to me. The simple fact that he and his girlfriend have been lying in this thread and the final post by the girlfriend in the WSO proves that John is not ready or worthy of selling on the WF at this point, and that's what his comeback is all about. He's itching to do it again.

          The last WSO wasn't the only one he bailed on. He has a history of it. From November 2012:

          I was one of those who bought this coaching course too, and how I regretted it. John didn't prepare anything at all and just basically wrote some posts on his forum as "training". The Skype Group which he created is a ghost town and he is hardly online at all. It seems to me that he was strapped for cash and wanted to make a quick buck out of us.

          We are all here to ask for our money back but seems like he has ran off with the cash. John if you are reading this do the decent thing and refund us the money.
          I have been waiting for soemthing to happen with this course. I sent John 2 emails asking when he was going to start doing something, but he never responded.

          Warning: If you buy from him, don't expect any service. He takes the money and then loses interest when it comes time to delivering.

          I am sorry to have to do this. Ususally these things can be worked out privately, but since he ignored my emails I have no choice.
          From another WSO:

          Today is February 20, 2012. I ordered the product on January 25, 2012. To date I have still received absolutely nothing.

          I do not know what the problem is nor do I care at this point. It has almost been a month. No return emails except 1 of many that I have sent. and NO
          PRODUCT. I have contacted my credit card company and paypal so I can get the money back. $39 is not a lot but I don't appreciate people stealing the few dollars I do have.

          I tried everything to get John Durham to respond, he didn't. So I can only assume that he is a scam. Why else would you do this? If you sell a product you should deliver or at least give an explanation.

          I am now skeptical about purchasing anything else from this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

          I am definitely not pointing you out. Just looking over the thread and it just seems like a gang-attack. That is just my perspective.

          My whole point is that none of this will make a bit of difference. I'm talking about the outcome. Here are the outcomes:

          1) This thread will scroll into the history books.
          2) John will participate here.
          3) People who hang on to negative emotions will be carrying them around. John will not be affected.
          4) No one will have any money or time back. In fact, everyone is using even more time bashing.

          This whole entire process is completely unproductive. Not only that, all the bad feelings people are experiencing. Is it really worth it?

          For me, when I get mad about stuff or am on the negative side of something, it just throws off my whole mojo and makes me less productive.

          Once I do the cost/benefit analysis...it just isn't worth it and doesn't make WF a better place in any way.

          Has this thread accomplished anything? Anything?
          I agree with everything you say. And it's the high road you take. I salute you.

          Two things;

          John came here and was fishing. You read the posts. To a fellow information marketer, I expected better. And John stirred the pot.

          Do I think there is a purpose to our bitching? Not really. We won't make the forum better by complaining.

          I'm not really mad at John. I can't be. He didn't do anything to me.

          But I consider him a peer. And that doesn't get done often. So, I take anything he does, that's way below his potential...... personally.

          And he got as close to being a friend, and any faceless forum member could get. And I expect more out of my friends.

          I think I'm done. John hasn't responded recently here. It's probably wise. This thread will die on its own, and will be forgotten.

          Yeah, I think I'm done.
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    • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      If you didn't lose any money to John, then you have no dog in the fight.
      Dan your an ol timer here, having lost money to him or not is not a ticket into the ring, many of us watched and knew / or could see / guess what was going on / about to happen (and your saying people should sit back and watch again?), we watched the start with a snappy tag line in the Sig, then along came the humble newbies with stars in theirs eyes of the riches to made and were oft blinded by the fancy words of a "salesman?" and the glitter of so many golden likes buzzing around.

      Now from a Sinner to Saint ? where do I remember a preacher man from?, I feel who ever left the gates of hell unlocked may have released the devil himself, but we will see, he has his chance and future actions will speak louder than any words that may be mumbled in the pits of muck and stench.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    If only we asked our own clients and prospects as many questions ! ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author John Regal
    i`ve heard good things about John Durham. His return is most welcome
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  • Profile picture of the author umc
    I agree with Dan about the piling on. At this point it seems that John has digressed and walked away from the thread after saying what he had to say. Nothing he can say at this point would satisfy anyone, as he's already said other things that weren't satisfactory. So what is to be gained at this point?

    Imagine if there was this much action about all of the other WSO sellers that ripped people off. Happens frequently and nobody cares. Let's not pretend that playground is clean. John probably shouldn't be allowed to sell anything for a long time, but neither should a lot of people for that matter. That whole section is fraught with peril, and it is one of those things where you have to enter at your own risk. I do understand why John in particular is singled out, as he built such a reputation and then fell short of what people thought of him to be, but at least he built something. Lots of people in there selling have never contributed anything outside of that area and don't contribute much inside of it while taking people's money.

    Eventually this thread will die down and he's done his part by leaving it be. We can keep it going, but it seems empty to do so when the guy isn't even trying to defend himself. In fact, not trying to defend himself might be the smartest move.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by umc View Post

      I agree with Dan about the piling on. At this point it seems that John has digressed and walked away from the thread after saying what he had to say. Nothing he can say at this point would satisfy anyone, as he's already said other things that weren't satisfactory. So what is to be gained at this point?

      Imagine if there was this much action about all of the other WSO sellers that ripped people off. Happens frequently and nobody cares. Let's not pretend that playground is clean. John probably shouldn't be allowed to sell anything for a long time, but neither should a lot of people for that matter. That whole section is fraught with peril, and it is one of those things where you have to enter at your own risk. I do understand why John in particular is singled out, as he built such a reputation and then fell short of what people thought of him to be, but at least he built something. Lots of people in there selling have never contributed anything outside of that area and don't contribute much inside of it while taking people's money.

      Eventually this thread will die down and he's done his part by leaving it be. We can keep it going, but it seems empty to do so when the guy isn't even trying to defend himself. In fact, not trying to defend himself might be the smartest move.
      HIs smartest move would be right actions - not words - to repair the past. Right actions from this point
      forward, and never anything close to a repeat of past improprieties/incompetence.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by umc View Post

      Imagine if there was this much action about all of the other WSO sellers that ripped people off. Happens frequently and nobody cares. Let's not pretend that playground is clean. John probably shouldn't be allowed to sell anything for a long time, but neither should a lot of people for that matter.
      Who said nobody cares? Of course, many of us care. What's different about this case?

      It was taken care of. He was banned. Now he's mysteriously unbanned. An alleged second chance. But it's the same old John. Nothing new. He said in this thread about not having a refund policy for the one WSO that got him banned and his shill girlfriend lied also. The banned WSO was mysteriously reopened to allow her to post her lies and then closed again. Here's the post where a customer asks about a refund policy. Here's his answer. Here's where he tells customers:

      The forum will be perpetual and ongoing, the training will be as well, as you will be able to ask questions perpetually.. The forum content grows daily as does the community, making this an information investment that grows in value over time.
      Read This for more quotes from some of his other WSOs and you will see a pattern of abandoning customers and not refunding them. Those are just a few of them.

      People talk about all the value he gave to the forum by gracing everyone with his knowledge by posting here. Well, he did a WSO about that.


      "POWER POSTING"- By John Durham- Advanced Thinking On How To Pump Out Profits From Posting!
      A Guide For How To Make $500 Per Week With Your Forum Signature

      So, perhaps that explains all those "valuable" posts. At least the customers in that WSO were happy, although it didn't look all that active.

      This really isn't about us not giving someone who deserves it a second chance. This is about a guy who has bailed on customers in numerous WSOs and then comes back "a changed man," ready to start doing business here again, who has lied to us in this thread about refunds and who knows what else at this point. Either he's lying to us about the refunds or he lied to his customers about the refund policy. Either way, I'm not seeing the kind of change that is deserving of another chance at selling here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Suzanne -

        I understand what you are saying but the big argument seems to be "so many people were hurt" yet the bulk of complaints are coming from a few who say "I wasn't hurt".

        If everything you say about John is true, does it matter? This isn't the same forum. It's not up to you or to me whether to give anyone a second chance. The new owners made the decision to remove the ban - they don't need our permission.

        This thread has been kept alive intentionally by a handful of posters - but even so there has not been a flood of people saying "I was harmed" or "I lost money". I think in order to regain any rep here, JD would have to make amends to those he harmed. Driving him away doesn't help them.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Suzanne -

          I understand what you are saying but the big argument seems to be "so many people were hurt" yet the bulk of complaints are coming from a few who say "I wasn't hurt".

          If everything you say about John is true, does it matter? This isn't the same forum. It's not up to you or to me whether to give anyone a second chance. The new owners made the decision to remove the ban - they don't need our permission.

          This thread has been kept alive intentionally by a handful of posters - but even so there has not been a flood of people saying "I was harmed" or "I lost money". I think in order to regain any rep here, JD would have to make amends to those he harmed. Driving him away doesn't help them.
          There might not be the same owners of this forum, but the core membership is exactly the same as they were, with the same ethics or lack of ethics that they had before forum ownership changed. They don't need our permission to unban John, but that doesn't mean that we need to accept that without comment.

          John's customers haven't flocked to this thread and probably don't know it exists, but for a few of them. The people here are people who DO sell here and DON'T rip off their customers, yet they are painted with the same broad brush that many Internet Marketeres are painted with, and that is of scammers and snake oil salesmen out to make a buck by any means they can. So, sellers like John, do hurt other sellers.

          What's sad is some of the complaints in his WSOs were from brand new people who had dreams and thought the WF was the answer. They believed John. Later in the thread, there were a couple who said things like ... "I thought Warrior Forum was an honest place to buy stuff and learn to make money online, but this is just a rip off." They didn't have any posts except for that one, so they left and never came back.

          I don't care if the unhappy customers aren't here to speak for themselves. Someone, no matter who owns this forum, needs to speak up for them. So I disagree Kay. I don't think that John should ever be allowed to sell here again. I think it was a mistake to unban him. He was banned for very good reason, and the fact these this "comeback" posts by John himself in this thread are based on lies, is justification enough for anyone to comment on his so called redemption. I'm sure he, and apparently you, you would like this thread to die, but it'll die when it dies. This is an unfolding story and to date, I have never seen a seller with that many complaints in his WSO threads being unbanned and allowed to sell here again.

          From a different WSO, one that wasn't closed by admins
          Today is February 20, 2012. I ordered the product on January 25, 2012. To date I have still received absolutely nothing.

          I do not know what the problem is nor do I care at this point. It has almost been a month. No return emails except 1 of many that I have sent. and NO
          PRODUCT. I have contacted my credit card company and paypal so I can get the money back. $39 is not a lot but I don't appreciate people stealing the few dollars I do have.

          I tried everything to get John Durham to respond, he didn't. So I can only assume that he is a scam. Why else would you do this? If you sell a product you should deliver or at least give an explanation.

          I am now skeptical about purchasing anything else from this forum.
          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

          The funniest part in those links is 300 people saying fraud/where's my refund/scam and then one person says "This looks great."
          Yeah, I saw that. Hilarious that some potential buyers do no due diligence at all, not even reading the sales thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ron Lafuddy
            Suzanne,

            I noticed it's gotten very quiet in here, after you've laid the facts out as they are, for all to see. Thank you for doing that and for being willing to "take the heat" from those who tried to dissuade you.

            Why on earth would anyone want this sort of thing to continue?

            I can only think that...they must have felt there was something for them to gain along the way. Even if others were scammed or ripped off in the process.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy View Post

              Suzanne,

              I noticed it's gotten very quiet in here, after you've laid the facts out as they are, for all to see. Thank you for doing that and for being willing to "take the heat" from those who tried to dissuade you.

              Why on earth would anyone want this sort of thing to continue?

              I can only think that...they must have felt there was something for them to gain along the way. Even if others were scammed or ripped off in the process.
              I don't fault anyone for being John's friend, even when he has done wrong. There are a lot of people who stick by others through thick and thin, and that's a commendable attribute to have in some cases.

              But trying to silence people on this matter, especially after I did some due diligence and discovered the lies ... that's going a little too far. The OP was a customer, and so were several others who received the email from John. They can, and did, speak for themselves. All the other customers who have moved on from WF or just don't read the Offline forum, I guarantee you they would have something to say about it if they were aware of this thread and aware that he is back.

              But I've discovered the lie, and that speaks volumes to me about John Durham's Redemption. So that's about all I have to say about it (unless something else comes up).
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    If anything, this thread is a good lesson in how not to handle your PR after a disaster. Now that would be a good WSO.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      If anything, this thread is a good lesson in how not to handle your PR after a disaster. Now that would be a good WSO.
      You just made me wonder how Reagan would have handled the Lewinsky affair (no pun intended)
      if he had gone there.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    The funniest part in those links is 300 people saying fraud/where's my refund/scam and then one person says "This looks great."
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    I hear ya and I understand, but if it was a long con, it was a massive undertaking. The guy didn't write snarky one-liners posts like me. Most of his posts were fairly detailed and helped a lot of people. In fact, several people have noted how much he helped them. That's a lot of work.

    (Sidenote: He did go through a stage where he acted like the "keeper of the keys" of the forum, and "passed" me one day with his stated approval. I just had to laugh at that one.)

    My opinion is still that he is type of guy everyone who has ever been on a sales team has seen before: Great cold caller, super enthusiastic, supportive, establishes rapport quickly, and knows how to close. On the flip side, they suck at turning in reports, follow-up and detail.

    I maintain that view because I'm so familiar with the pattern: Enthusiastic beginnings and chaotic endings. (Actually, I've had some girlfriends with this trait, but add in some bottle throwing and swearing in Korean.) I've known many sales types that fit that description exactly, so I never thought it was a planned program of shenanigans.

    As I've suggested, I believe he just needs to structure his business around his strengths.

    However, if I'm wrong, (and I have been before many times--just ask me about my idea for mobile pizza ovens in your car trunk), and your theory that he burned people on purpose and plans to again is accurate, well, that is a whole 'nother ballgame.

    And my ramblings are all armchair speculation, anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      My opinion is still that he is type of guy everyone who has ever been on a sales team has seen before: Great cold caller, super enthusiastic, supportive, establishes rapport quickly, and knows how to close. On the flip side, they suck at turning in reports, follow-up and detail.
      First, I'll say that I have not called JD a con man and wouldn't without definitive proof. I called him out for lying about the refund policy he said he didn't have and I pointed out the other WSOs that ended in a train wreck.

      So, let's say that as you suggest, he's a great salesman and can close the deal, but lousy on the delivery and details. Well folks, the delivery and details are the product here ...not the sales pitch, so not delivering the product is completely unacceptable.
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        First, I'll say that I have not called JD a con man and wouldn't without definitive proof. I called him out for lying about the refund policy he said he didn't have and I pointed out the other WSOs that ended in a train wreck.

        So, let's say that as you suggest, he's a great salesman and can close the deal, but lousy on the delivery and details. Well folks, the delivery and details are the product here ...not the sales pitch, so not delivering the product is completely unacceptable.
        I'm not calling him a con, either. My uncle was a con--he told dumb jokes like this:

        Q. What do you call a woman of the night who likes spaghetti?
        A. A pastatute.

        I agree delivering the product is paramount. I had a salesperson once who was great with customers--charming, engaging, smart and a great presenter--but horrible with follow up. No matter how good you are, clients don't care as much about who calls on them as getting their stuff on time.

        We teamed her with a killer support person, and it was heaven on earth. They made more money than the cotton candy vendor on opening day at the State Fair.
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  • Profile picture of the author iwillbeontop
    John,

    I couldn't care less about the reason you vanished.(Although, I'm compassionate if it involves death) You're back and you're trying to right the ship. You'll never regain some members loyalty and you will probably always have an asterisk next to your name.(Think Pete Rose) But it takes guts to come back and take all the mud either deserved or undeserved that has and will continue to come your way.

    How you came back, your recent replies etc, etc, blah blah, yada yada..... I personally don't care. You aren't my God and you're not perfect, you're a wealth of marketing information to me. If you refund those wanting refunds and pay your dues(Pro Bono) material.... You've earned a second chance imho.

    Make it up to those that welcome it and screw the others that have already made up their mind about you.

    I wished AP would have returned one of these years and sadly he never did. But you did John! I for one love a great second chance story! Earn our loyalty back and screw those that don't believe in second chances.
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  • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
    No answers John ? What's the crack your comeback gig not as rockin as you thought buddy. Are you going to pay the people you took money from and did not provide anything their money back ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    I'm having a hard time working out if John is back here because this place, and selling his wares here, makes him 10's of 1000's of $'s very quickly for very little work, or to genuinely make amends. It's a toughie. LOL.
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    • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
      Originally Posted by Underground View Post

      I'm having a hard time working out if John is back here because this place, and selling his wares here, makes him 10's of 1000's of $'s very quickly for very little work, or to genuinely make amends. It's a toughie. LOL.
      I'd say he is here to peddle his wares. Making amends would mean paying back the people whose money he took. Let's face it his only reason for being here is to make money , in my opinion !
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      • Profile picture of the author Underground
        Originally Posted by Advanpro View Post

        I'd say he is here to peddle his wares. Making amends would mean paying back the people whose money he took. Let's face it his only reason for being here is to make money , in my opinion !
        He IS here to peddle his wares. And to get that dopamine high of seeing his accounts fill with money at lightning speed as he sell shits to gullible people. Making amends does have to be part of that game plan though in order to get back to that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
          Originally Posted by Underground View Post

          He IS here to peddle his wares. And to get that dopamine high of seeing his accounts fill with money at lightning speed as he sell shits to gullible people. Making amends does have to be part of that game plan though in order to get back to that.
          Agreed, then it is not really making amends but merely starting the game all over again.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Not aimed at anyone in particular

    but given the WF, I wonder how many people /w bad credit are taking a whack at JD
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  • Profile picture of the author jabro
    I can't wait for the new WSO, "Rip-off Hundreds of People, Get Banned, Pay Off Owners of WF To Let Me Back In, Rip-off Same Hundreds Again".
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Does anyone else think we have beaten this into the ground enough?
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Does anyone else think we have beaten this into the ground enough?
        I'll bet there's at least 50 people who hope it continues...
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

          I'll bet there's at least 50 people who hope it continues...
          John; I don't mean them. The victims? They should keep posting forever, to warn the new guys away. But the people who really have no axe to grind?

          I just know that I'm actually tired of kicking John. Although, I think he deserves a harder kick.
          Jail time isn't out of the question. Fraud is a crime.

          Lord knows, I've done as bad in the dim past. But coming back here, just to test the waters, and disappearing again, shows mental instability. (In the way he did it).
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by umc View Post

            Well, John was supposed to have a new forum open by now according to his email to his list, and it appears to be a domain for sale and nothing more. Seems he could have delivered on that even if people here weren't exactly welcoming him. The "John Durham's Offline Bible Of Truth" report hasn't come out either as he promised. That just kind of says it all. Case closed. No amount of piling on makes any difference at this point. I tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, as God knows we've all messed up, but to come back in this manner is just an epic fail. I still wish him well as a person. As long as a person is breathing they have a chance to turn things around, but sometimes you burn bridges that can't be built again. "You can't go home again" is true here, especially after you were the one to burn it to the ground. It is probably time for all of us, including John, to move on.
            To be fair, to properly setup a forum can take some time. Did he give a launch date for either the report or forum?

            Despite everything I've said, I was hoping he had the tenacity to keep pushing forward through all the rubble and rebuild his trust.

            I think he can still do it but he's got to make better decisions and start grinding out the work. Nothing he can do can turn enemies into friends now, but he can turn indifferent people into friends, and friends into better friends.

            I'd like to see him surprise us.
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            • Profile picture of the author umc
              Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

              To be fair, to properly setup a forum can take some time. Did he give a launch date for either the report or forum?

              I'd like to see him surprise us.
              Like I said, he was supposed to have it open by now. 11 days ago he said that both would be released "next week". Since execution has been in question, it would have been smart to have those things ready to go. Maybe he meant by the end of next week, and he still has a few days.

              I'd like to see him surprise me too. So far I have been surprised, but not in a good way. I had high hopes for him.
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          • Profile picture of the author DWolfe
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            John; I don't mean them. The victims? They should keep posting forever, to warn the new guys away. But the people who really have no axe to grind? How would we know who has an axe to grind. We only know of 50 according to John. There could be others who never asked for a refund but dislike his Customer Service. Just like going to a below average restaurant it is easier to leave and never return than waste time asking for a refund.

            I just know that I'm actually tired of kicking John. Although, I think he deserves a harder kick. Very True !

            coming back here, just to test the waters, and disappearing again, shows mental instability. (In the way he did it).
            I dis-agree with the last comment, I doubt he could handle the heat and has just given up for now. Like a dog that is down and continues to get kick, it is just better to lay low or move on. One of the posters says John is great with the promotions but gets board with the actual fulfillment. If John cant handle the heat, he will never deliver a product IMO.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by DWolfe View Post

              I dis-agree with the last comment, I doubt he could handle the heat and has just given up for now. Like a dog that is down and continues to get kick, it is just better to lay low or move on. One of the posters says John is great with the promotions but gets board with the actual fulfillment. If John cant handle the heat, he will never deliver a product IMO.
              We just have different definitions of mental instability. Here is a link to a thread that describes, almost perfectly, what we have in this situation.

              http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...d-con-man.html

              These guys are usually labeled "Con Men". Maybe. But I've known guys like this. They always have some sort of underlying mental issue. No matter what they do, they don't think they are in the wrong. And even their apology, is laced with empty promises, and justifications for what they did.

              To me, that shows that something is wrong with their wiring. And it's very unlikely to get fixed.

              In a very bad analogy, my brother had severe schizophrenia, and was violent.

              The first several years, I told myself "He's my brother. And he has a disease. It isn't his fault"

              But after 15 years or so....I had to admit "This is just the way he is now. This is him".

              It's the same with serial con men. This is just the way they are. This is only an opinion.
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              • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                We just have different definitions of mental instability. Here is a link to a thread that describes, almost perfectly, what we have in this situation.

                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...d-con-man.html

                These guys are usually labeled "Con Men". Maybe. But I've known guys like this. They always have some sort of underlying mental issue. No matter what they do, they don't think they are in the wrong. And even their apology, is laced with empty promises, and justifications for what they did.

                To me, that shows that something is wrong with their wiring. And it's very unlikely to get fixed.

                In a very bad analogy, my brother had severe schizophrenia, and was violent.

                The first several years, I told myself "He's my brother. And he has a disease. It isn't his fault"

                But after 15 years or so....I had to admit "This is just the way he is now. This is him".

                It's the same with serial con men. This is just the way they are. This is only an opinion.

                I believe narcissism is the condition ....
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Despite everything I've said, I was hoping he had the tenacity to keep pushing forward through all the rubble and rebuild his trust.
                  I don't have the antipathy toward John that most here seem to have - but I think the above is astounding. Surely you are kidding.

                  You bash him over and over and over - but you are "hoping" he will keep going anyway? It's been a thread full of claims that he can't resurrect his reputation - he's lower than dirt - called a con man - a thief... If John was here to test the waters, he's found it shark infested.

                  ....and now people are asking where the freebies are that he promised? Now that's funny.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    I don't have the antipathy toward John that most here seem to have - but I think the above is astounding. Surely you are kidding.

                    You bash him over and over and over - but you are "hoping" he will keep going anyway? It's been a thread full of claims that he can't resurrect his reputation - he's lower than dirt - called a con man - a thief... If John was here to test the waters, he's found it shark infested.

                    ....and now people are asking where the freebies are that he promised? Now that's funny.
                    freebies? Now that's even funnier. Pages of unhappy customers asking for refunds. Customers asking for the product they bought in other WSOs .... hardly freebies.

                    Irregardless of our opinions of him, which all evidence seems to point to being correct, he should have made reparations to the customers that he lied to about refunds and to the customers that didn't receive product. He didn't need to send in a female shill before him and then come in with his big debut, all the time lying to us. How many times in this thread did he state that there was a no refund policy? Several. That's been disproven now.

                    Does someone who honestly wants to repair the damage that he alone is responsible for do it by lying to us? Give me a break. You act like John is the wronged person here.

                    He could easily have gained access here and quietly gone about his reparations. But no. He didn't and he probably never will. It was all a salesman's big show. All talk and all designed so that he can return here and stick it to them all over again.

                    Did you even bother to go back and read the last half of his WSOs Kay? You're normally so diligent about looking up people's histories.
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                    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      freebies? Now that's even funnier. Pages of unhappy customers asking for refunds. Customers asking for the product they bought in other WSOs .... hardly freebies.

                      Irregardless of our opinions of him, which all evidence seems to point to being correct, he should have made reparations to the customers that he lied to about refunds and to the customers that didn't receive product. He didn't need to send in a female shill before him and then come in with his big debut, all the time lying to us. How many times in this thread did he state that there was a no refund policy? Several. That's been disproven now.

                      Does someone who honestly wants to repair the damage that he alone is responsible for do it by lying to us? Give me a break. You act like John is the wronged person here.

                      He could easily have gained access here and quietly gone about his reparations. But no. He didn't and he probably never will. It was all a salesman's big show. All talk and all designed so that he can return here and stick it to them all over again.

                      Did you even bother to go back and read the last half of his WSOs Kay? You're normally so diligent about looking up people's histories.
                      This thread is interesting to me in a philosophical sense as I apply it to other people.
                      Mainly when hiring employees and trying to "read" them. I am also surprised to find
                      that I am not really a believer in second chances anymore - if it is a mess up like this
                      or worse, anyway.

                      --------------------

                      In the instant case, I think reparations should have been required before unbanning.
                      (Could be that they were and I just don't know it.)
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                      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        If John was here to test the waters, he's found it shark infested.

                        ....and now people are asking where the freebies are that he promised? Now that's funny.
                        Kay, with all due respect (and I do have a lot of respect for you) John came back to "shark infested waters" because of the things he has done - again and again and again. There were multiple instances, multiple WSOs and other projects, in which he made grandiose promises and then failed to deliver, usually followed by endless excuses and personal drama. He also, as others have pointed out, has a long history of not being honest. He has NO one to blame but himself for the unpleasant reception he found here upon his return.

                        ADDED to that, he, again, made all sorts of promises about making things right, and so on, which apparently included the "freebies" you mention. And, it seems, he has once again failed to deliver. So yes, people have a right to ask where they are - he's the one who promised them as part of his quest for redemption.

                        John created this mess and has only himself to blame. It's one thing to screw up, sincerely apologize, and do everything you can to make it right and get a second chance - and then actually follow through and make it right. But the pattern of behavior that John has exhibited over the years is one that simply is never going to change because it's deeply rooted in his character. He's come back and shown, once again, that he's all talk and nothing more. He didn't like the heat, so he walked away. Yeah, that's someone who really wants to make things right... He could have handled this thread entirely differently. He didn't. He showed his true colors once again, and he got called on the carpet for it.

                        Btw, I am a former customer of John's - from a few years ago. I didn't ask for a refund on the useless, grossly over-hyped product I purchased (I don't think he offered a refund or if so, I missed the window - I don't recall now), but what I started to see (from that WSO and his forum) was that he was all talk and no substance. There have been so many inconsistencies in his "stories" over the years that it's really rather pathetic.

                        Several thousand "thanks" under his name don't excuse all the broken promises, ripping people off again and again, and the blatant dishonesty.
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                  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    I don't have the antipathy toward John that most here seem to have - but I think the above is astounding. Surely you are kidding.

                    You bash him over and over and over - but you are "hoping" he will keep going anyway? It's been a thread full of claims that he can't resurrect his reputation - he's lower than dirt - called a con man - a thief... If John was here to test the waters, he's found it shark infested.

                    ....and now people are asking where the freebies are that he promised? Now that's funny.
                    In my opinion I didnt bash him, but seeing as how eager you are to be his life guard I can understand why you think that. You think I am kidding about hoping that he would continue on and make good on his new promises? I most definitely am not.

                    As for people upset about his freebies he promised now and hasn't delivered.. I don't find that funny either.. I guess you do?
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                  • Profile picture of the author umc
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


                    ....and now people are asking where the freebies are that he promised? Now that's funny.
                    I guess you're referring to me because I brought them up. First, let's not call them freebies as if they were some over delivering of value, as they were more a makeup for previous bad behavior. As for myself, I wasn't asking for anything, it was just another example of John not delivering. If you screw up and are offering something free or otherwise to try and rebuild your name, then sack up and deliver it. Do what you say that you're going to do. It really isn't harder than that, yet he can't seem to do it. I brought it up because I wanted to believe, and I've tried defending him, but there's no defense at a point. Eventually you've got to put up or shut up. Do what you say, or stop saying things.
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                  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    ... If John was here to test the waters, he's found it shark infested.
                    A little funny that John is now portrayed as in the innocent guppy in the waters full of sharks ?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
                      Originally Posted by tryinhere View Post

                      A little funny that John is now portrayed as in the innocent guppy in the waters full of sharks ?
                      Well considering he was trying to get all chummy with everyone...
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                      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                        Originally Posted by Eddie Spangler View Post

                        Well considering he was trying to get all chummy with everyone...
                        Something did seem a little fishy. I cod smell it.
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                        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

                          Something did seem a little fishy. I cod smell it.
                          You caught that smell because it did not have a tarpon it.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            Truth is, I was thinking more along the lines of chum than guppies...testing the waters. Wasn't thinking "innocent" at all.

                            I don't excuse or defend what John did - and I fully support anyone who was "taken in" posting their anger and frustration in threads like this. Those people seem to be in the minority - which surprised me. They are the ones who should be dictating terms and conditions and making demands in my opinion.

                            I don't see how you can reach restitution if the thread is nothing but a whack a mole thread. To achieve resolution for those who were harmed there has to be a path left open to crawl out of the hole.
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              I don't see how you can reach restitution if the thread is nothing but a whack a mole thread. To achieve resolution for those who were harmed there has to be a path left open to crawl out of the hole.
                              The thread, at least the shill girlfriend's and John's contributions to it have been nothing but a ruse and lies. You're still giving John credit for a "honest" attempt at restitution, when there has been nothing honest about it.

                              Fact is, he got unbanned and could have immediately, without any fanfare at all, gone about the business of repairing damage he did to others. He instead chose the shill and the Big Pitch, laced with lies and more excuses. This was to "win" us over ... not his customers.

                              We already addressed this earlier in the thread. Reparations is not just another BS sales pitch ... it's an action that only he can do and doesn't require an audience to do it.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              I don't see how you can reach restitution if the thread is nothing but a whack a mole thread. To achieve resolution for those who were harmed there has to be a path left open to crawl out of the hole.
                              Kay; You are taking the high road, and trying to be fair. I admire that.

                              The path to crawl out of the hole is to either give refunds, or deliver what was paid for.

                              That's the path. As soon as there is a few posts from his customers, where he's made it right....all this will probably stop. No matter what has been said, I think most of us would cheer John on, if he just delivered what was paid for.
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                              • for those looking to help JD - be Harsh

                                I for one, believe he is not a con man.
                                I know he has a lot of experience working the phones

                                a conman would continue, and not disclose, the "front person" so they could get what they wanted...esp. a long con

                                IMO - JD is unstable in some form, from some past....stupidity, Trauma, excuse syndrome, egocentric, drugs, senility, etc..,

                                I mean, How rational is it to come back here like he did???

                                so, IMO he needs the harsh reality that is being offered here

                                that is how we can help him.

                                I could be wrong, but Claude's posting above is a path back to the real world, and ironically, JD will probably benefit long term becoming a better person.

                                you can do it JD!

                                the only other path to salvation is for JD to "come clean" about what happened and offer his past customers free help until they are satisifed - IMO
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                                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                  Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post


                                  the only other path to salvation is for JD to "come clean" about what happened and offer his past customers free help until they are satisifed - IMO
                                  Thank you for the compliment. As soon as I read "come clean" I thought "That's what John will grab onto. And to him, "coming clean" means rehashing what happened, in the best light".

                                  We already know what "clean" looks like.

                                  By the way, as far as being harsh. .....harsh is good. Coddling is being an enabler.

                                  When I screwed up royally, my best friends were my harshest critics. They knew they didn't need to hold back.....or modify what they thought. And they were right.

                                  They expected a lot out of me. They took it very personally, when I let them down. And none of my friends were affected by my stupidity, except their expectations of who I was.

                                  Those are real friends.

                                  And to a much lesser extent, I feel that way about John.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                    And to him, "coming clean" means rehashing what happened, in the best light".

                                    We already know what "clean" looks like.
                                    Yeah ... there are already numerous JD sob story threads on WF explaining why stress and anxiety and life in general causes him to bail on paying customers. Who really wants another JD apology/excuse thread?

                                    How refreshing it would be just for him to cut the games, cut the excuses and just have come back after already making everything good with all those angry customers. This whole thread and his "comeback" would have been very different had he done that.
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              • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                We just have different definitions of mental instability. Here is a link to a thread that describes, almost perfectly, what we have in this situation.

                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...d-con-man.html

                These guys are usually labeled "Con Men". Maybe. But I've known guys like this. They always have some sort of underlying mental issue. No matter what they do, they don't think they are in the wrong. And even their apology, is laced with empty promises, and justifications for what they did.

                To me, that shows that something is wrong with their wiring. And it's very unlikely to get fixed.

                In a very bad analogy, my brother had severe schizophrenia, and was violent.

                The first several years, I told myself "He's my brother. And he has a disease. It isn't his fault"

                But after 15 years or so....I had to admit "This is just the way he is now. This is him".

                It's the same with serial con men. This is just the way they are. This is only an opinion.
                Actual quote from somebody who is never wrong or responsible, just all about what he can get away with - the son of someone who used to work for me:

                "I know I owe you more, but $50 is all I have. Take it or leave it. And, if you don't take the $50,
                I won't buy pot from you anymore."

                He has lost many jobs and it's never his fault. One time I know of, he was caught smoking pot in his car
                in the parking lot of his employer and he was fired. It would not have happened if "they" did not light it up...

                His other brushes with the law and domestic violence are much worse, but this is how he is.
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          • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            John; I don't mean them. The victims? They should keep posting forever, to warn the new guys away. But the people who really have no axe to grind?

            I just know that I'm actually tired of kicking John. Although, I think he deserves a harder kick.
            Jail time isn't out of the question. Fraud is a crime.

            Lord knows, I've done as bad in the dim past. But coming back here, just to test the waters, and disappearing again, shows mental instability. (In the way he did it).
            I have no personal axe to grind with John, but I have an axe to grind with any rip off artists. I just see so much of it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by Advanpro View Post

              I have no personal axe to grind with John, but I have an axe to grind with any rip off artists. I just see so much of it.

              I get it. Most "Rip off artists" here are newbies, and they disappear after their first failed WSO.
              They can be forgiven, because they are morons.

              John isn't a moron. Everything that has happened, he was aware of. This isn't his first rodeo. And that's the worst part.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I get it. Most "Rip off artists" here are newbies, and they disappear after their first failed WSO.
                They can be forgiven, because they are morons.

                John isn't a moron. Everything that has happened, he was aware of. This isn't his first rodeo. And that's the worst part.
                I think the worst part is coming back here under the ruse of making amends to those buyers he left in the dust, and not from just the one WSO ... 3 or 4 of them ... testing the waters, using his excellent copywriting skills in an attempt to sound sincere, all the while just itching at the chance to "do it again." The fact that the forum he said would be ready in a week isn't yet ready speaks volumes on John's ability and willingness to actually deliver what is promised.

                I imagine that John's desire to cash in on WSOs is so strong that he will go to Plan B and just open a new account. Hey John, if you're reading this and are going to Plan B, I strongly suggest that you just sell some stinking ebooks ... something that requires no support or follow-up of any kind from you. It might go better.
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  • Profile picture of the author umc
    Well, John was supposed to have a new forum open by now according to his email to his list, and it appears to be a domain for sale and nothing more. Seems he could have delivered on that even if people here weren't exactly welcoming him. The "John Durham's Offline Bible Of Truth" report hasn't come out either as he promised. That just kind of says it all. Case closed. No amount of piling on makes any difference at this point. I tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, as God knows we've all messed up, but to come back in this manner is just an epic fail. I still wish him well as a person. As long as a person is breathing they have a chance to turn things around, but sometimes you burn bridges that can't be built again. "You can't go home again" is true here, especially after you were the one to burn it to the ground. It is probably time for all of us, including John, to move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I'm all for warning people away from a bad business.

    JD does seem to be a drama king. To paraphrase, "Could not fulfill because of personal
    drama..." Lame.

    One of his posts in this thread he mentions that he forgot how rough it is here.
    He expected warm greetings? Rough is being a prisoner of war, or other events in real
    life, not forum comments.

    I give the owners a "do-over" on the decision to un-ban JD.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    How bad is it when your own users are sending you private messages on the WF, on Facebook, and even submitting tickets about some one else who they bought a product from and can't get any response from them?

    That's what happened and it was really bothersome because I had to take time out of my day to address the issues some one else created.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      How bad is it when your own users are sending you private messages on the WF, on Facebook, and even submitting tickets about some one else who they bought a product from and can't get any response from them?

      That's what happened and it was really bothersome because I had to take time out of my day to address the issues some one else created.
      Sometimes you don't want credit for somebody else's moves.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Yeah exactly, every one of them asked me if I knew how to get in touch with him about the very issues discussed in this thread. I felt sorry for them as they were people who were my own customers but I couldn't help them at all.

        Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

        Sometimes you don't want credit for somebody else's moves.
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        • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          Yeah exactly, every one of them asked me if I knew how to get in touch with him about the very issues discussed in this thread. I felt sorry for them as they were people who were my own customers but I couldn't help them at all.

          Why were they asking you Russ ?
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  • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
    I am a compassionate person who feels empathy for JD with regard to the events that transpired in his personal life.

    I went through a personal tragedy in the mid 2000s that had a huge adverse effect on my personal life and in turn, caused me to lose control of my business and professional life.

    So, like JD........ I've got experience in losing my @$$.

    Wanna know what i learned? (And, JD take note because I'm already seeing you do this here)

    Here if is.....

    In the end, the WHY of it doesn't matter. ALL that matters is what's happened..... HAPPENED.

    Not to sound insensitive because I'm not trying to be... but I want to be real..... the REALITY IS nobody really cares about the story anymore. It's not appropriate to keep telling it.

    I get WHY you feel compelled to tell it..... but don't. In your business life, let the story go. From now on, it's for your PERSONAL life ONLY. Mixing those 2 together got you in hot water..... don't get on that train again.

    With respect to this forum and your business life, the only thing you should start doing..... Is DOING....... doing right by tying up those lose ends.

    Never tell your story again. No need for that. Life goes on. I realize I may seem crass or like some kind of jerk but sometimes I'm cool with that in persuit of whats real

    No disrespect meant - I'd talk to one of my coaching members the same way (and have).
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  • Profile picture of the author AussieT
    Maybe we should all get back to work on our offline businesses now!
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    • Profile picture of the author Advanpro
      Originally Posted by AussieT View Post

      Maybe we should all get back to work on our offline businesses now!
      Maybe you should not have stopped working on yours to make such a useless comment. Maybe we should all just constantly work on our businesses and never post here at all in that case !!
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