PBN - Risk to Reward Integrations

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Hi,

This is something I've been wondering lately and hoping that members who have networks on larger scales could offer there advice.

I am going to be building out some domains and am wondering how I should approach these new sites to avoid de-indexing.

Basically these are a few footprints that I feel may be of major importance but I am not totally sure. And these type of footprints are a bit different because there are pros and cons of removing or keeping them (unlike most footprints).


1) Homepage Setup:

I have always set up my homepage as full post excerpts because almost always the most amount of power resides there. However, to me this is probably a huge footprint because almost every PBN uses this method. While tons and tons of legit sites use this a blog feed homepage, it still is an obvious sign of a PBN and may act as a gateway or yellow light to check for other footprints.

Added to that nearly every old domain I buy previously had a static html homepage. Most likely you would think if it was revived by the old webmaster it would at least opt for a more magazine/business boxed homepage look rather than 2005 lame blogger feed look -- especially if it was a business/corporation.

But of course this comes down to risk-reward. Is the added safety worth the loss of link power by linking from innerpages and making the homepage more "legit"?

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2) Spyder Spanker or .htaccess blocks

This comes down to either being more afraid of competitors reporting you, or google mirroring popular backlink analyzers user agent strings to fish out networks.

I dont know. But if someone put me to work for google spam team my initial instinct would be to do run useragent strings of ahrefs, moz, etc, to easily find pbns.

So this come down to risk analysis more than whats clearly better.

Are you more likely to get nailed by G or get nailed by a competitor? Block or not block?


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3) Rebuilding Sites Using Articles/Info/Persona/Pictures from Archive

Remaking the blog exactly as it was prior and updating it appropriately is probably the best way to appear real and legit.

However, this means using the old owners name, pictures, about me, etc.

What is the likelihood that the prior owner will type if his old domain, see you posing as him and start making calls to registrars to get you taken down?


Hoping someone that manages a large network can answer this based on his research, opinion, and experience.

Thanks
#integrations #pbn #reward #risk
  • Profile picture of the author IMCapitalist
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      1) You are on the right track with your thinking.

      2) It is a potential footprint. I use Spyder Spanker, but not on every site.

      3) I'm not a fan of rebuilding the old site. Maybe if they happen to be in the same niche, but it is rare to find a good domain that is also in the same niche you are targeting.

      And to play devil's advocate, couldn't it actually be seen as less natural to see a domain be let go, bought by a new owner, and then continue with the same content?
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Build legit feeder sites & you won't have to worry about most of that stuff in OP.
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    • Profile picture of the author LaneB
      1 last crucial bit that is KILLING people with the Skyfall update.

      Randomize your hosting of your PBNs across quality hosts and log into them with a VPN.

      Google is deindexing entire IP ranges and is also tracking IP addresses to identify networks......
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
        Originally Posted by LaneB View Post

        1 last crucial bit that is KILLING people with the Skyfall update.

        Randomize your hosting of your PBNs across quality hosts and log into them with a VPN.

        Google is deindexing entire IP ranges and is also tracking IP addresses to identify networks......
        You do not need a VPN to log into them. Unless you are using Chrome or logging in while logged into Google accounts, Google has no way of tracking that. Of course, if you are doing either of those things, a VPN would not help anyhow.

        I agree with using good hosts though.
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        • Profile picture of the author momoneyman
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Build legit feeder sites & you won't have to worry about most of that stuff in OP.
          Well, yes, that is the ideal scenario.

          But what details does that entail? And I know what you're going to say. So to be more specific what role are we taking on as the webmaster for said feeder site? Are we a new guy whose bought an old domain by accident or simply because he liked the name; and now we're building a real new money/info site on a similar topic governed by the relevance to the domain name?

          Would that suffice?.... Or are we the old webmaster making rebuilding his old site with a twist?

          Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

          1) You are on the right track with your thinking.

          2) It is a potential footprint. I use Spyder Spanker, but not on every site.

          3) I'm not a fan of rebuilding the old site. Maybe if they happen to be in the same niche, but it is rare to find a good domain that is also in the same niche you are targeting.

          And to play devil's advocate, couldn't it actually be seen as less natural to see a domain be let go, bought by a new owner, and then continue with the same content?
          Last point you are correct. However, when I say rebuild I mean everything matches old owner. Whois, address, name, about page. Identity theft basically.

          Then any new content is a continuation and relevant to the old copied site, however, with some obl's of course.

          Guess my logic is, if a manual reviewer sees the old site he wouldnt even think twice if it was exactly the same. Where as a new guy on an old domain piggy backing of the prior owner is subject to scrutiny and more inspection.

          Originally Posted by LaneB View Post

          1 last crucial bit that is KILLING people with the Skyfall update.

          Randomize your hosting of your PBNs across quality hosts and log into them with a VPN.

          Google is deindexing entire IP ranges and is also tracking IP addresses to identify networks......
          I have thought of this extensively and have have never gotten a definitive answer. However, I doubt blacklisted IP's are a great idea.
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          • Profile picture of the author jinx1221
            Originally Posted by momoneyman View Post

            Guess my logic is, if a manual reviewer sees the old site he wouldnt even think twice if it was exactly the same. Where as a new guy on an old domain piggy backing of the prior owner is subject to scrutiny and more inspection
            I see what you're saying, but on the other hand, people register dropped domains everyday. Using the previous owner's name/address for registration and their exact same previous content could possibly raise legal issues.

            If your site is going to be under scrutiny, it will be whether you have exactly the same as the previous owner, or all new.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
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            Originally Posted by momoneyman View Post

            Well, yes, that is the ideal scenario.

            But what details does that entail? And I know what you're going to say. So to be more specific what role are we taking on as the webmaster for said feeder site? Are we a new guy whose bought an old domain by accident or simply because he liked the name; and now we're building a real new money/info site on a similar topic governed by the relevance to the domain name?

            Would that suffice?.... Or are we the old webmaster making rebuilding his old site with a twist?
            I don't setup my network sites like most people on this forum. I build legit sites that feed traffic & links back to my main money sites/pages. I build legit content for traffic on my feeder sites. I aim to get traffic to help me build organic links (long term SEO). I also only mess with same niche domains (established same niche traffic/link profiles). I don't go looking at domain auctions.

            I also don't care If Google knows I own a network of sites (legit sites). My pages rank because I own a couple of established authority sites. The feeder sites trail the main sites in the SERPs for same/similar keywords.

            Look at BIG authority sites, they usually have a network of feeder sites. Example, animalplanet.com is part of a network of sites (below). Go to the animalplanet.com site & look at their footer (OUR SITES).
            • hxxp://www.ahctv.com
            • hxxp://www.animalplanet.com
            • hxxp://www.animalist.com
            • hxxp://www.destinationamerica.com
            • hxxp://www.discovery.com
            • hxxp://www.tudiscovery.com
            • hxxp://tv.discoveryfamilia.com
            • hxxp://kids.discovery.com
            • hxxp://www.discoveryfitandhealth.com
            • hxxp://discoveryfamilychannel.com
            • hxxp://www.investigationdiscovery.com
            • hxxp://www.oprah.com
            • hxxp://www.sciencechannel.com
            • hxxp://www.tlc.com
            • hxxp://www.velocity.com
            • hxxp://www.3net.com
            • hxxp://www.apl.tv
            • hxxp://news.discovery.com
            • hxxp://revision3.com
            • hxxp://testtube.com
            • hxxp://www.discoveryeducation.com
            • hxxp://www.discoverymusicsource.com
            • hxxp://www.discoveryaccess.com
            • hxxp://www.sourcefed.com

            You might see some people claim a local business can't setup legit feeder sites, wrong, there's no reason a local plumber can't own a dozen or so legit how to plumber sites to help rank his local plumber site.

            Partselect.com is another good example, they create tutorials on how to replace appliance parts that they sell. That could just as easily be a feeder site (tutorial site backlink source) for a local appliance repair business. I personally buy from partsselect.com & recommend them. They also have a mini-network of sites:
            • hxxp://eldisgroup.com
              • hxxp://www.partselect.com
              • hxxp://www.partselect.ca
              • hxxp://www.easyapplianceparts.com
              • hxxp://www.appliancehelp.com

            Think of your business as owning subsidiaries (legit feeder sites). Expand new sites as needed.

            Keep in mind I've never once had a Google slap on any of my sites.
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            • Profile picture of the author PBMax
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              You might see some people claim a local business can't setup legit feeder sites, wrong, there's no reason a local plumber can't own a dozen or so legit how to plumber sites to help rank his local plumber site.
              Do you think it's okay to interlink same-niche sites OR link to a single client from all of the blogs/sites in your network (if the network is niche-specific?)

              They would essentially be feeder sites.

              Like your plumber having 8 sites that are in the "plumbing" genre, all have a relatively good amount of user value and are built better-than-average. The plumber links to his main site in posts and, perhaps, in the footer. He DOES NOT link to competitors or waste juice on linking out to authority sites.

              The 8 sites are simply a funnel.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
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                Originally Posted by PBMax View Post

                Do you think it's okay to interlink same-niche sites OR link to a single client from all of the blogs/sites in your network (if the network is niche-specific?)

                They would essentially be feeder sites.

                Like your plumber having 8 sites that are in the "plumbing" genre, all have a relatively good amount of user value and are built better-than-average. The plumber links to his main site in posts and, perhaps, in the footer. He DOES NOT link to competitors or waste juice on linking out to authority sites.

                The 8 sites are simply a funnel.
                I wouldn't suggest not linking out to relevant authority domain/pages for the sake of trying to save link juice. If it makes sense, link out but don't link out to another domain/page that you don't own that's targeting the same keyword.

                You have to be careful that you don't put your site/page in a position of ranking other peoples domains for your own target keywords. Use domain names as outbound link anchor-text in that case.

                When you build your links on the same webpage/s as relevant authority sites it associates your domain/page with the authority domain/page. Think of it as that old saying rubbing elbows, which basically means associate yourself with like minded people (having similar tastes or opinions).

                The SEO version is a related:domain.com Google search.







                Originally Posted by PBMax View Post

                I own a restaurant...
                You could build sub-niche free recipe feeder sites based on each category of your restaurant menu. If you have a BBQ meat section on your restaurant menu build some BBQ recipe sites from public domain recipes (ex: This recipe was submitted by: bbqrestaurant.com), link to your money page that's targeting the keyword BBQ.

                If you have a decent camera you could also start taking photos of your food & build public domain image galleries as feeder sites targeting food keywords.

                Organic traffic loves public domain sites (free long term organic links).
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            • Profile picture of the author momoneyman
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              I don't setup my network sites like most people on this forum. I build legit sites that feed traffic & links back to my main money sites/pages. I build legit content for traffic on my feeder sites. I aim to get traffic to help me build organic links (long term SEO). I also only mess with same niche domains (established same niche traffic/link profiles). I don't go looking at domain auctions.

              I also don't care If Google knows I own a network of sites (legit sites). My pages rank because I own a couple of established authority sites. The feeder sites trail the main sites in the SERPs for same/similar keywords.

              Look at BIG authority sites, they usually have a network of feeder sites. Example, animalplanet.com is part of a network of sites (below). Go to the animalplanet.com site & look at their footer (OUR SITES).
              • hxxp://www.ahctv.com
              • hxxp://www.animalplanet.com
              • hxxp://www.animalist.com
              • hxxp://www.destinationamerica.com
              • hxxp://www.discovery.com
              • hxxp://www.tudiscovery.com
              • hxxp://tv.discoveryfamilia.com
              • hxxp://kids.discovery.com
              • hxxp://www.discoveryfitandhealth.com
              • hxxp://discoveryfamilychannel.com
              • hxxp://www.investigationdiscovery.com
              • hxxp://www.oprah.com
              • hxxp://www.sciencechannel.com
              • hxxp://www.tlc.com
              • hxxp://www.velocity.com
              • hxxp://www.3net.com
              • hxxp://www.apl.tv
              • hxxp://news.discovery.com
              • hxxp://revision3.com
              • hxxp://testtube.com
              • hxxp://www.discoveryeducation.com
              • hxxp://www.discoverymusicsource.com
              • hxxp://www.discoveryaccess.com
              • hxxp://www.sourcefed.com

              You might see some people claim a local business can't setup legit feeder sites, wrong, there's no reason a local plumber can't own a dozen or so legit how to plumber sites to help rank his local plumber site.

              Partselect.com is another good example, they create tutorials on how to replace appliance parts that they sell. That could just as easily be a feeder site (tutorial site backlink source) for a local appliance repair business. I personally buy from partsselect.com & recommend them. They also have a mini-network of sites:
              • hxxp://eldisgroup.com
                • hxxp://www.partselect.com
                • hxxp://www.partselect.ca
                • hxxp://www.easyapplianceparts.com
                • hxxp://www.appliancehelp.com

              Think of your business as owning subsidiaries (legit feeder sites). Expand new sites as needed.

              Keep in mind I've never once had a Google slap on any of my sites.
              Hey Yukon,

              Yea I agree with you here 100%.

              This is really where a personal network and legit website/network become synonymous of each other.

              I've been thinking of doing that for a while for local businesses; acting as a more authorative and content heavy directory service, that doesnt rent links though but rather connects people to professionals.

              I've also got a domain thats perfect for something different on a more blogger oriented view.

              The only issue is the immense amount of time it takes to make one of these sites. The way you are suggesting.

              From what I'm inferring; the fact you are trying to generate real traffic really means you have to have exceptional content, a goal oriented vision/theme to your site, outreach and good legit seo.

              It now almost becomes that you are buying expired domains to build white hat sites to link to your money sites.

              One could argue that now making the expired domains at least from an seo perspective is harder than that of your money sites. Since I highly doubt you are powering your expired domains with other expired domains, to then finally link to your money site -- or maybe you are

              Likely you are doing more whitehat seo and integrating social and maybe similar blog outreach.

              This traffic generation angle for PBNs definitely makes this a whole other game.

              It sounds great for futureproofing your network as well as possibly attracting real links to help thwart expired domain link decay -- however the time invested and ROI might not be worth the magnitude of effort this approach would take for most people who want a 50 domain network or so.

              just my thoughts
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  • Profile picture of the author PBMax
    Originally Posted by momoneyman View Post


    2) Spyder Spanker or .htaccess blocks

    This comes down to either being more afraid of competitors reporting you, or google mirroring popular backlink analyzers user agent strings to fish out networks.

    I dont know. But if someone put me to work for google spam team my initial instinct would be to do run useragent strings of ahrefs, moz, etc, to easily find pbns.

    So this come down to risk analysis more than whats clearly better.

    Are you more likely to get nailed by G or get nailed by a competitor? Block or not block?
    I guess I don't understand this part. If you block Google bots, how will they include your site in the SERPs? How will it rank?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by PBMax View Post

      I guess I don't understand this part. If you block Google bots, how will they include your site in the SERPs? How will it rank?
      It's not blocking Google bots. It's blocking Ahrefs, Majestic, Moz, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author PBMax
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        It's not blocking Google bots. It's blocking Ahrefs, Majestic, Moz, etc.
        Ah, so people can't see behind the curtain. Smart. Are there any free plugins for this?
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by PBMax View Post

          Ah, so people can't see behind the curtain. Smart. Are there any free plugins for this?
          None. You can do it in the .htaccess file, but that is not quite as effective.
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          • Profile picture of the author PBMax
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            None. You can do it in the .htaccess file, but that is not quite as effective.
            Just found one called Link Privacy. You have to sign up on their website, but you can download it free. The plugin allows you to check every bot out there on the "deny" list.
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    • Profile picture of the author danparks
      Originally Posted by PBMax View Post

      I guess I don't understand this part. If you block Google bots, how will they include your site in the SERPs? How will it rank?
      You block ahrefs and other backlink checkers, but you DON'T block Google bot.
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  • Profile picture of the author sweezeter
    Try and make your sites appear as natural as possible. That's what has worked for me in the past and the services that I use. The ones that look like churn and burn PBN's get burned fast. The ones that look legitimate and that are built well seem to last the longest and have not been hit at all from what I can tell.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by sweezeter View Post

      Try and make your sites appear as natural as possible. That's what has worked for me in the past and the services that I use. The ones that look like churn and burn PBN's get burned fast. The ones that look legitimate and that are built well seem to last the longest and have not been hit at all from what I can tell.
      This guy is smart.
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    Here's a reason why it's sometimes worth investing in crapper looking TL domains to get a link back from one of the top juiced pages that it contains. i.e. PA not DA in some cases. You can make the homepage look even crapper than the old one as long as you hold the linkjuice from the page that is being linked nicely to.
    Something to watch out for big time is your competitors. Never underestimate the lengths they will go to to take you down. If they find your network, it's often goodbye with a manual review from google. This is where you might think that Spyder spankr and other tools might protect you, but I fear not.
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    I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    I know it's directed elsewhere but this "Do you think it's okay to interlink same-niche sites OR link to a single client from all of the blogs/sites in your network (if the network is niche-specific?)" might not be safe.

    Nobody can ever tell you what is "Safe". You might get a good couple of years of traffic out of your plan and then it could all die overnight (could be six months, could be a week). If you can risk that then it might be worth doing. Invest in SEO and invest outside of SEO is probably your best bet. Sometimes I think for local business there is just not enough getting out there in the community. Business cards, sandwich boards, pimping in local shop boards has served me well in a particular niche in seaside resorts in the UK.
    Master SEO and the world is your oyster but don't rely on it unless you take the plunge, too.
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    I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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    • Profile picture of the author PBMax
      Originally Posted by DPM70 View Post

      I know it's directed elsewhere but this "Do you think it's okay to interlink same-niche sites OR link to a single client from all of the blogs/sites in your network (if the network is niche-specific?)" might not be safe.

      Nobody can ever tell you what is "Safe". You might get a good couple of years of traffic out of your plan and then it could all die overnight (could be six months, could be a week). If you can risk that then it might be worth doing. Invest in SEO and invest outside of SEO is probably your best bet. Sometimes I think for local business there is just not enough getting out there in the community. Business cards, sandwich boards, pimping in local shop boards has served me well in a particular niche in seaside resorts in the UK.
      Master SEO and the world is your oyster but don't rely on it unless you take the plunge, too.
      I agree that offline/old school marketing (ie. mailers, door hangers, flyers under windshield wipers, etc) is very effective.

      As to the proposed plan, if what the other guy was saying is true about a small biz owner having a handful of feeder sites all pointing to his own, then I've simply echoed his idea and made a decent hypothetical around it.

      You don't think it's safe to have legit, informative, user-friendly sites within the same industry pointing to a main site?
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      • Profile picture of the author DPM70
        Oh yeah, it's safe for a while - and heck, I'd follow Yukon's plan all the way. But I'd never rely on that as my customers source for any business. All I'm saying is have something else, as well.
        Edit:Maybe I'm preaching to the masses here, but sometimes I worry that too many take too much stock in the power of online SEO. In plenty of niches, I'm not sure I'd even bother.
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        I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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        • Profile picture of the author PBMax
          Originally Posted by DPM70 View Post

          Oh yeah, it's safe for a while - and heck, I'd follow Yukon's plan all the way. But I'd never rely on that as my customers source for any business. All I'm saying is have something else, as well.
          Edit:Maybe I'm preaching to the masses here, but sometimes I worry that too many take too much stock in the power of online SEO. In plenty of niches, I'm not sure I'd even bother.
          I get that. I own a restaurant and I get tons of traffic from review sites alone, that and offline efforts. I don't do any SEO for it - and we're in a competitive niche.

          But as for my client, I do have a PBN that I'm building that will be part of my overall plan.
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  • Profile picture of the author deezn
    To add to Yukon's point.

    Lawyers, Legal Forms, Law Books & Software, Free Legal Information - Nolo.com
    Car Accidents. Settlement of Claims, Lawsuits, Injury Cases & More | by Nolo
    AllLaw.com - Legal Information, Legal Forms & Law Resources

    Same company (Nolo is the main brand but not parent). The footers are sitewide and link to each other, and they're at the top of A LOT of queries. Sometimes both.
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