G00gle destroyed my business

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So far penalty recovery seems possible. I am guessing the ongoing Penguin update is still working with the same data from 3.0. I think g00gle has made a huge ordeal with their Penguin penalties. I've come to the realization I may want to make a new seperate online business - so I have two in different sectors. This one may be more service oriented.

Besides for waiting for months to recover - I guess it may be better to also work on another business while waiting for the ecommerce one to hopefully recover.
#business #destroyed #g00gle
  • Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

    So far penalty recovery seems possible. I am guessing the ongoing Penguin update is still working with the same data from 3.0. I think g00gle has made a huge ordeal with their Penguin penalties. I've come to the realization I may want to make a new seperate online business - so I have two in different sectors. This one may be more service oriented.

    Besides for waiting for months to recover - I guess it may be better to also work on another business while waiting for the ecommerce one to hopefully recover.
    Hire someone to recover your website instead of waiting for months....
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by ShoeNickel View Post

      Hire someone to recover your website instead of waiting for months....
      I have hired an organic SEO company to clean my site and realize after the fact they didn't nearly enough they did mostly disavow with a few link removals. If refunds in SEO were allowed I might ask for one. The owner of the company seems to be a good idea but I think they take Google too much at their word and did not do enough for recovery.

      I also hired linkdelete.com a month or two ago - they didn't get everything removed but I imagine they helped a lot.

      I also spent a decent amount of money and time contacting web owners and have had success removing many links. A lot of directory owners will ignore contact tho and some of them are hosted on web hosts that might not care much either way.

      On hrefs some keywords densitys went down 11 to 5 percent so i do think theres a good possibility if they do a penguin refresh in a few months it may give a big boost but as we can see its hard to say for sure with Penguin.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
    Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

    So far penalty recovery seems possible. I am guessing the ongoing Penguin update is still working with the same data from 3.0. I think g00gle has made a huge ordeal with their Penguin penalties. I've come to the realization I may want to make a new seperate online business - so I have two in different sectors. This one may be more service oriented.

    Besides for waiting for months to recover - I guess it may be better to also work on another business while waiting for the ecommerce one to hopefully recover.
    This is the most disgusting, and in-human types of collateral damage Penguin has on online business. It's outright corporate sabotage of small and start-up business's online. Now that you know not only the types of links that can penalize a website, out of business. You actually just need to look at your link profiles to see the exact place, that you could now place links for your now and future competitors.

    If it's good enough to tank you, it should be good enough to tank them too right?

    And as more and more penalized webmasters wake up to this glaring oversight by Google (Penguin). The more people will pick up on Neg-SEO link building. The new XR lists are no longer looking for high pr anything. The old blacklists, have now become the new AA-V lists.

    We will soon see such lists being sold publicly I bet. Oh wait, they are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

      This is the most disgusting, and in-human types of collateral damage Penguin has on online business. It's outright corporate sabotage of small and start-up business's online. Now that you know not only the types of links that can penalize a website, out of business. You actually just need to look at your link profiles to see the exact place, that you could now place links for your now and future competitors.

      If it's good enough to tank you, it should be good enough to tank them too right?

      And as more and more penalized webmasters wake up to this glaring oversight by Google (Penguin). The more people will pick up on Neg-SEO link building. The new XR lists are no longer looking for high pr anything. The old blacklists, have now become the new AA-V lists.

      We will soon see such lists being sold publicly I bet. Oh wait, they are.
      Yeah. It's really absurd. I'm against negative seo generally but g00gle has brought this mess upon their search engine. Allowing negative seo to work like this is absurd. G00gle messed up big time on this and considering its taking over a month to configure penguin i imagine even from their point of views they've messed up with this algorithm.
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  • Profile picture of the author Electrical
    Google didn't destroy your business. You simply based too much of your business on a false assumption. There's a saying about eggs and baskets...
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

      Google didn't destroy your business. You simply based too much of your business on a false assumption. There's a saying about eggs and baskets...
      Well part of the problem is g00gle dominating the search engines. My site ranks well for its keyword on the other ones. I do agree though more sources of traffic is the best but I think to effectively advertise cost plenty of money and I could better do that with money coming in. Two visits a day from Google seems a little absurd.

      An analogy I use with the way they penalize people now is if you're buying a car would someone rather go to a Walmart or a place that specializes in it - if looking for a top quality product at least.
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      • Profile picture of the author Electrical
        Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

        Well part of the problem is g00gle dominating the search engines.
        And Verizon dominates the phone books delivered to the residents of my area.

        That doesn't mean that I have to use only them, or use them at all.

        If I choose to use the phone book and finagle my way to the top of my section by using tactics they don't like, I can't complain if they put me at the end. And if the phone book was the only way I was getting people to call, then I screwed myself.

        Your quote was "G00gle destroyed my business". It's not Google's fault, they didn't destroy anything. You destroyed it by putting too much blind faith into an assumption that some techniques will keep your website at the top of some search engine.

        If your entire business relies on some employees of a non-related company making decisions that you like, then you should rethink your business model, not blame the other business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
    I get it but I think it's fair to hold businesses to a morla standard. I.e. If heads at Google say disavowing can gelp your site recover and that penalized sites can get back to good ranking on Google, etc.

    The fact is at the moment Google isn't just some search engine, they dominate search engines right now and I think it's fair to ask for them to be moral as a company.
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    • Profile picture of the author Electrical
      Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

      I get it but I think it's fair to hold businesses to a morla standard.
      Yeah, I think you should go protest on Google's steps and demand that they do what you need for your business to survive. Tell them about morals in business

      The fact is at the moment Google isn't just some search engine, they dominate search engines right now and I think it's fair to ask for them to be moral as a company.
      I think it's adorable how naive you are being

      No offense brother, but if you are expecting other companies to use morals and basing your own company off of that, then it's time to go work for someone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    I believe you have said in other threads that you have a lot of spammy links pointing at your site created by people you hired. So ultimately you are responsible for your poor rankings, in Google's point of view.
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      I believe you have said in other threads that you have a lot of spammy links pointing at your site created by people you hired. So ultimately you are responsible for your poor rankings, in Google's point of view.
      Some webmaster mother f****r sent me hundred new links yesterday asking for hundreds of dollars to remove them when I was trying to get two links removed. This is the climate that Google has now created. It's fd up.
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

        Some webmaster mother f****r sent me hundred new links yesterday asking for hundreds of dollars to remove them when I was trying to get two links removed. This is the climate that Google has now created. It's fd up.
        Damn, just as I adjusted my network you tell me this, I could've made fortunes, ok time to reverse it, sorry customers I see new opportunities, lol j/k
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  • Profile picture of the author SEO-Dave
    What do you expect, if you got your rankings through spammy links when Google ignores them (penalty) or you have them removed (manual removal/disavow) you no longer have the backlinks which gave you the rankings.

    To regain the rankings you will have to match or better the backlinks you've removed and wait for them to age, but this time using whitehat SEO techniques.

    Google didn't destroy your business, you did. You used a risky business model of relying on Google traffic and gaining that traffic through means that Google disapproves of. I'm afraid if you plan to rely on a business model which relies on a third party, you'd better be sure you understand how the third party works.

    Learn from your mistake and don't repeat it.

    David
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by SEO-Dave View Post

      What do you expect, if you got your rankings through spammy links when Google ignores them (penalty) or you have them removed (manual removal/disavow) you no longer have the backlinks which gave you the rankings.

      To regain the rankings you will have to match or better the backlinks you've removed and wait for them to age, but this time using whitehat SEO techniques.

      Google didn't destroy your business, you did. You used a risky business model of relying on Google traffic and gaining that traffic through means that Google disapproves of. I'm afraid if you plan to rely on a business model which relies on a third party, you'd better be sure you understand how the third party works.

      Learn from your mistake and don't repeat it.

      David
      Bad links were done years ago. I listened to the people at Google that said you can recover by cleaning your site and it hasn't happened - even worse when trying to delete two links some india spam web owner sends me one hundred plus new links asking for money!
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
        Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

        Bad links were done years ago. I listened to the people at Google that said you can recover by cleaning your site and it hasn't happened - even worse when trying to delete two links some india spam web owner sends me one hundred plus new links asking for money!
        Google has never guaranteed that sites are recoverable. In fact, they have said that in some cases you are better off starting with a new site. Basically, they said they reserve the right to make the judgement on a website that "once a spammer, always a spammer."
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      • Profile picture of the author SEO-Dave
        Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

        Bad links were done years ago. I listened to the people at Google that said you can recover by cleaning your site and it hasn't happened - even worse when trying to delete two links some india spam web owner sends me one hundred plus new links asking for money!
        I wouldn't waste my time contacting the owners of the spammed domains, as you've found it's opening you up to extortion.

        Disavow all bad links including the 100 new ones. Consider Google has already discounted the spammy links, you are disavowing them as an act of showing Google (the manual reviewer who will review your site during a reinclusion request) you understand what you have done wrong and are trying to fix it so Google will trust your site again.

        If you've got a lot of bad links to specific webpages on your site consider disallowing them via your robots.txt file so they are taken completely out of the link cycle.

        If the webpages are important move the content to new webpages (new URLs and don't 301 redirect).

        It's a case of looking at any URLs you've spammed links for (obviously you can't do the home page), if they don't have worthwhile backlinks (good quality ones) disallow (which is basically a noindex and nofollow notification to Google.

        After all bad links are disavowed and you've checked there nothing else Google might disapprove of (whiter than white SEO) submit a Google reinclusion request and hope for the best.

        Again, since this is a links penalty don't expect rankings to recover completely, you've removed some of the reason why your site had good rankings and you've lost Google trust you have to re-earn the trust and build new quality links.

        As Mike said, you might never recover, no one has a right to Google traffic.

        One way I and others have had some success with recovering is move the site to a new domain and selectively 301 redirect old to new. Avoid 301 redirecting URLs you've added a lot of spammy links to. There's limited data on this, so it's a try and see as a last resort.

        David
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        • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
          Originally Posted by SEO-Dave View Post

          Disavow all bad links including the 100 new ones. Consider Google has already discounted the spammy links, you are disavowing them as an act of showing Google (the manual reviewer who will review your site during a reinclusion request) you understand what you have done wrong and are trying to fix it so Google will trust your site again.

          If you've got a lot of bad links to specific webpages on your site consider disallowing them via your robots.txt file so they are taken completely out of the link cycle.

          If the webpages are important move the content to new webpages (new URLs and don't 301 redirect).

          It's a case of looking at any URLs you've spammed links for (obviously you can't do the home page), if they don't have worthwhile backlinks (good quality ones) disallow (which is basically a noindex and nofollow notification to Google.

          After all bad links are disavowed and you've checked there nothing else Google might disapprove of (whiter than white SEO) submit a Google reinclusion request and hope for the best.

          Again, since this is a links penalty don't expect rankings to recover completely, you've removed some of the reason why your site had good rankings and you've lost Google trust you have to re-earn the trust and build new quality links.

          As Mike said, you might never recover, no one has a right to Google traffic.

          One way I and others have had some success with recovering is move the site to a new domain and selectively 301 redirect old to new. Avoid 301 redirecting URLs you've added a lot of spammy links to. There's limited data on this, so it's a try and see as a last resort.

          David
          Hear that. There is no reinclusion request though because it is a Penguin related penalty. I've disavow and removed hundreds of links. I would think all my effort would show improvement to Google but I guess it's hard to say.

          I've considered redirecting my whole website, I guess that would be a last resort move. I want to give it a little more time to see if things can show improvement. It looks like Google is doing a lot of altercations with Penguin this past week so will see what that leads to. If need be a new site is definitely an option. I guess I may give it a couple of months and from there see what looks like it makes more sense to do.

          I figure either Penguin is going to be monthly, once every few months or maybe even more of an ongoing thing in which case there may be more noticeable serp changes in a faster amount of time.
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          • Profile picture of the author SEO-Dave
            Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

            Hear that. There is no reinclusion request though because it is a Penguin related penalty. I've disavow and removed hundreds of links. I would think all my effort would show improvement to Google but I guess it's hard to say.

            I've considered redirecting my whole website, I guess that would be a last resort move. I want to give it a little more time to see if things can show improvement. It looks like Google is doing a lot of altercations with Penguin this past week so will see what that leads to. If need be a new site is definitely an option. I guess I may give it a couple of months and from there see what looks like it makes more sense to do.

            I figure either Penguin is going to be monthly, once every few months or maybe even more of an ongoing thing in which case there may be more noticeable serp changes in a faster amount of time.
            How long ago did you have the ranking drop?
            How long since disavowing the links?

            I wouldn't expect any improvement for at least a month from fixing the problems without a reinclusion request.

            You can submit a reinclusion request at https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/reconsideration you don't need a penalty message from Google, though if you haven't got one be sure you actually have a penalty before inviting a manual review of your site!

            Why do you think you have a penalty? Be highly specific, not I lost a SERP or my traffic halved, give numbers like went from 10K visitors a day to 1K and it coincided with a Penguin update.

            Lots of webmasters think they have a penalty and it's not.

            Is your site still indexed? Check this search in Google:

            Code:
            site:example.com
            Did PR drop (if it did, sure sign of a penalty since PR hasn't updated in a year).

            David
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            • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
              Originally Posted by SEO-Dave View Post

              How long ago did you have the ranking drop?
              How long since disavowing the links?

              I wouldn't expect any improvement for at least a month from fixing the problems without a reinclusion request.

              You can submit a reinclusion request at https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/reconsideration you don't need a penalty message from Google, though if you haven't got one be sure you actually have a penalty before inviting a manual review of your site!

              Why do you think you have a penalty? Be highly specific, not I lost a SERP or my traffic halved, give numbers like went from 10K visitors a day to 1K and it coincided with a Penguin update.

              Lots of webmasters think they have a penalty and it's not.

              Is your site still indexed? Check this search in Google:

              Code:
              site:example.com
              Did PR drop (if it did, sure sign of a penalty since PR hasn't updated in a year).

              David
              Site is still indexed so it shows up if searching for the site like with site:example.com

              Page rank was at 0 though when it was checked a few months ago.

              There is no manual actions on my site so there is no option for a reinclusion request.

              My sites been doing bad in Google rankings since around the Penguin 2.0 update and has been that way since then.

              Webmaster tools does show impressions up by 69% - 4,69769% and clicks up 81% with 85 clicks but I'm not sure how much that means cause the serps seem to be updating a lot over the past week or so, so it can move around sometimes. It used to be something like 100 clicks a day according to people who worked on the site back in around 2007.

              Also wmt doesn't seem so accurate, one query shows shows it in position 8 with 1,000 impressions which I don't think is true cause I've searched it and it isn't even in the first few pages and hasn't gotten any clicks so something seems a little off there.


              Basically though- for the past year the site went down to like 1-8 visits from Google a day from around 100 visits a day since the Penguin 2.0 update and we had a decent number of directory and other weak links that I've at this point gotten rid of a majority of them as well as disavowed.
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              • Profile picture of the author Gadgetroid
                Penguin is deadly and still largely unknown in how it works. Google does'nt want the whole world to know how the algorithm works for their own good reasons.

                Some higher authority sites will contact you and tell you to remove some links or "nofollow" etc. So as a webmaster you think something is wrong and after weeks of research you figure out what is wrong and make amends. Months later you hover around same position you lost weeks earlier sometimes even better. On the hand the owner of that higher ranking site has lost real streams of traffic and income.

                Better check your traffic sources before you disavow those links. If your list is manageable actually checkout the sites and see if you can make contact with the sites owner especially if you are in a very specific niche that is hard to get backlinks. Sometimes easier to tell a guy that a penguin is sitting him than to have a look and run.

                What if you have been hit by penguin and find that nothing has been affected either income or traffic ( the links are bringing you the audience you want and your local stats show you are improving ).

                From observing the topic of penguin, its easy to agree that it will take sometime before the majority of web-masters are "penguin ready", - having left a site as it was after checking out the sources - I saw it recover as the web-masters of those sites updated there sites.

                Hope these thoughts help
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            • Profile picture of the author SEO Power
              Originally Posted by SEO-Dave View Post

              You can submit a reinclusion request at https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/reconsideration you don't need a penalty message from Google
              This is ludicrous. Algorithmic penalties cannot be appealed with a reconsideration request. If your site is penalised algorithmically, you'll have to make the necessary changes and wait for it to recover. You can only file a reconsideration request if your site is penalised manually and you get a WMT message.
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              • Profile picture of the author SEO-Dave
                Originally Posted by SEO Power View Post

                This is ludicrous. Algorithmic penalties cannot be appealed with a reconsideration request. If your site is penalised algorithmically, you'll have to make the necessary changes and wait for it to recover. You can only file a reconsideration request if your site is penalised manually and you get a WMT message.
                You're right, I'm out of date on this one.

                Looks like I missed the change, must get more sites penalized for testing!

                Thanks for the info.

                David
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  • Profile picture of the author edpudol1973
    Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

    I guess it may be better to also work on another business while waiting for the ecommerce one to hopefully recover.
    If I were you, I will go on that path also. Just let the old site sit in your hosting for at least 2-3 months before starting working on it again.

    Create new business, and avoid the mistake you've made in your first business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by edpudol1973 View Post

      If I were you, I will go on that path also. Just let the old site sit in your hosting for at least 2-3 months before starting working on it again.

      Create new business, and avoid the mistake you've made in your first business.
      It certainly is a learning experience, at the least if I make way in online buiness again I know what not to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Electrical
    Xelaetaks, when you talk about Google destroying your business and say how they should be moral, ask yourself how moral you were being when you fraudulently manipulated Google to show your website higher than it deserved to be. That alone is immoral, since it goes against Google's wishes and the way that they want their website to be used.

    Everything you ever did for SEO, other than post good content on your website which other websites link to voluntarily and without payment or trade, is immoral and wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
      Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

      Xelaetaks, when you talk about Google destroying your business and say how they should be moral, ask yourself how moral you were being when you fraudulently manipulated Google to show your website higher than it deserved to be. That alone is immoral, since it goes against Google's wishes and the way that they want their website to be used.

      Everything you ever did for SEO, other than post good content on your website which other websites link to voluntarily and without payment or trade, is immoral and wrong.
      Well my brother owned the business before me so I'm not all guilty but I understand. Also like a number of people we used a reputable SEO company years ago and of course a lot of what they did then is now considered to be spammy. It Was the way tons of sites on the web were ranking back then tho but I understand with the Google animals now if you do that you can get tanked in serps. It still is a problem with negative seo tho which I guess acocrding to Google disavowing should be able to help with
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Google is like an ailment, give it the right drugs and dosage and it will respond to treatment.

    Same with immunization, if given the appropriate vaccines you will be immuned to certain diseases.

    Going back to the subject, if you build backlink from high PR, low OBL, unique content and relevant site you are almost certain of good ranking when done in the appropriate quantity.

    Likewise negative SEO or whatever it's called will be a thing of the past.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulgl
      If google destroyed your business, then you never had a real business.

      A real business:

      Has a business plan that included an ad budget, completed research on viability
      and marketshare, substantial capital, potential marketing strategies, etc.

      Your business plan included nothing but how to get google to send you
      visitors. Oh and $10 for a domain, hosting, and wordpress. * g a g *

      I visit dozens of real businesses in person and online each month. I can't
      name a single one who puts all (if any) hope in google.

      I wish google would dump heaps of crap on the lot of you. The internet is
      full of IMers who don't have real business and do not belong online.

      The truth hurts.

      Paul
      Signature

      If you were disappointed in your results today, lower your standards tomorrow.

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      • Profile picture of the author Electrical
        Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

        I visit dozens of real businesses in person and online each month. I can't
        name a single one who puts all (if any) hope in google.
        The underlined part is a silly thing to say and if it's true it shows how limited of a scope these "real businesses" you visit have.

        There's nothing wrong with putting some hope into Google. It is, in fact, the major search engine that millions (billions?) of people (consumers) use.

        I get a lot of business from Google and I am happy with it, so yes, I do have hope in Google. My only contention with the OP is him depending on 100% Google and then blaming them for his bad decision/s.
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  • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
    @paulgl -My brother was running the business for a while before me but I agree, diversified traffic would be what I want at the end of the day - that said, Google traffic is signficant. Basically if the site can get back to making money I'd be down to put earnings towards advertising on facebook and other avenues to build it up a bit more.

    @Stop Byte - They do, people don't know for sure how well the disavow tool works but I guess in some cases it may work.

    @HusnainMeerzadeh - Back in 2007-2010 that's how a lot of sites were ranking so mistakes were madr when building links at the time. In looking back though - sticking to more gray/white hat link building methods would have been smarter wnd SEO's who worked on my site years ago messed up in that regard.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

    Google destroyed my business
    Google didn't destroy your business, they created it.Your business only existed because you found a way to manipulate theirs. You're only "out" because they fixed their error.

    All I can offer is a suggestion: plan your next business without Google. Real businesses don't need organic rankings, that's for the little guys to fight over. Sure, it helps, no question, but if the life or death of your entire business is based on organic rankings, you're always on borrowed time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Electrical
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      All I can offer is a suggestion: plan your next business without Google.
      Why?


      That's like telling an extermination company in the 1980's not to use the phone book because they might stop giving them out every year.


      If the resource is there, why not take advantage of it? Google is there and people WILL make money using it. There's no need to ignore it, that would be, well, ignorant.
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      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
        Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

        Why?


        That's like telling an extermination company in the 1980's not to use the phone book because they might stop giving them out every year.

        If the resource is there, why not take advantage of it? Google is there and people WILL make money using it. There's no need to ignore it, that would be, well, ignorant.
        No, it's like telling a guy who knows a lot about bugs that he should start an extermination business because the phonebook exists.

        Of course you should take advantage of it as a resource. My point is that you shouldn't start a business that's based on a need to rank. If you have no plan other than SEO, then you have no plan. I can tell you with 100% certainty that every website I run or am involved with would continue to get traffic and make money if Google went away completely. Some would have less traffic, others would see no decrease. Organic SEO should be part of a strategy, not the only strategy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Electrical
          Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

          My point is that you shouldn't start a business that's based on a need to rank. If you have no plan other than SEO, then you have no plan.
          I agree and I've said that the entire thread. But that's not what you said earlier when you posted "Plan your next business without Google".

          Google is a major asset and ignoring it would be silly, silly I say!
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          • Profile picture of the author ronrule
            Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

            I agree and I've said that the entire thread. But that's not what you said earlier when you posted "Plan your next business without Google".

            Google is a major asset and ignoring it would be silly, silly I say!
            That's exactly what I said and meant. "Plan your next business without Google" means that when you're deciding what your next business will be, focus on the business itself. If you can't do that without thinking about Google, then you don't have a business. SEO is part of a marketing plan, and that doesn't come into play until the business objective and market need is clearly defined.
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            • Profile picture of the author Electrical
              Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

              That's exactly what I said and meant. "Plan your next business without Google" means that when you're deciding what your next business will be, focus on the business itself. If you can't do that without thinking about Google, then you don't have a business. SEO is part of a marketing plan, and that doesn't come into play until the business objective and market need is clearly defined.
              So when planning a business, one should ignore whether there are or aren't ways to promote said business to the customer?

              Wouldn't marketing possibilities have a substantial role in the original layout of the business model?
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              • Profile picture of the author ronrule
                Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

                So when planning a business, one should ignore whether there are or aren't ways to promote said business to the customer?

                Wouldn't marketing possibilities have a substantial role in the original layout of the business model?
                You seem to be confusing planning a business with planning how you will MARKET the business. I also never said "ignore Google" - I said plan your business without them.

                If organic SEO is your only plan for getting traffic, you need to rethink the model. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.
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                • Profile picture of the author Electrical
                  Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

                  You seem to be confusing planning a business with planning how you will MARKET the business. I also never said "ignore Google" - I said plan your business without them.

                  If organic SEO is your only plan for getting traffic, you need to rethink the model. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.
                  I'm just going off of what you said. You said "Plan your next business without Google".

                  When I look at your business in your signature, I know that you had Google in mind when you planned it, and if Google (or a giant search engine like Google) didn't exist your business would have been planned differently.

                  You see, if I was "Thinking about starting an eCommerce website?" and found your business website via Google, what would I be expecting? If I was one of those people who was looking to start an eCommerce website, should I ignore the 800lb gorilla when planning my business?
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                  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
                    [quote=Electrical;9717537]I'm just going off of what you said. You said "Plan your next business without Google".

                    Exactly. Plan your next business without Google. That means Google should not be an integral part of your business. That doesn't mean it's not a piece of your marketing plan.

                    When I look at your business in your signature, I know that you had Google in mind when you planned it, and if Google (or a giant search engine like Google) didn't exist your business would have been planned differently.

                    You see, if I was "Thinking about starting an eCommerce website?" and found your business website via Google, what would I be expecting? If I was one of those people who was looking to start an eCommerce website, should I ignore the 800lb gorilla when planning my business?
                    Actually, that link has nothing to do with Google (nor does it have anything to do with my business). That's for human beings. But to answer your question, yes, I do think you should ignore organic SEO when starting an eCommerce site and I've discussed this topic on the blog.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Electrical
                      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

                      Actually, that link has nothing to do with Google (nor does it have anything to do with my business).
                      ronrule.com isn't a business?

                      You keep saying these wacky things...

                      ronrule.com IS a business and when you developed the idea for that business you had Google in mind. If Google or some other large search engine didn't exist to sort the internet out then ronrule.com, the business, wouldn't exist in it's same form.
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                      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
                        Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

                        ronrule.com isn't a business?

                        You keep saying these wacky things...

                        ronrule.com IS a business and when you developed the idea for that business you had Google in mind. If Google or some other large search engine didn't exist to sort the internet out then ronrule.com, the business, wouldn't exist in it's same form.
                        lol, no it's not. I'm not a consultant, don't offer services, and I'm not available for hire. It's a blog, not a business. The site has never been optimized, marketed, and the words I use are based on sentence structure not keywords. I tweet when I post something new, occasionally mail my list, and that's it. Lately I've been doing more updates to the subpage about the electric car I'm building than blogging about eCommerce anyway.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Electrical
                          Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

                          lol, no it's not. I'm not a consultant, don't offer services, and I'm not available for hire. It's a blog, not a business.
                          My mistake, I thought you were using it to sell your book and get e-mail addresses, something that many businesses use the exact type of website to do. My mistake.

                          I agree with your later point of not depending on Google. But planning your business without Google is different. Some business only exist because Google is there to give them 40%+ of their business. And if Google never existed, those profitable businesses wouldn't either.

                          It just seems like if people exclude from the planning process the giant search engine that so many people use these days, they might not start a business that would have been profitable.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ronrule
                            Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

                            My mistake, I thought you were using it to sell your book and get e-mail addresses, something that many businesses use the exact type of website to do. My mistake.

                            I agree with your later point of not depending on Google. But planning your business without Google is different. Some business only exist because Google is there to give them 40%+ of their business. And if Google never existed, those profitable businesses wouldn't either.

                            It just seems like if people exclude from the planning process the giant search engine that so many people use these days, they might not start a business that would have been profitable.
                            We may actually be saying the same thing here, just approaching it differently - I'm with you on that. I just see a lot of people center their entire business around Google, and then they end up here starting threads like this one.

                            If your business was started because one day you said "Ooh, I'm going to get awesome-keyword-domain.com and then I'm going to build a site and rank the shit out of that site and get all of this free traffic and some percentage of those people will click ads or buy X" then you're going to end up like our friend Xelaetaks here.

                            When I say "Plan your business without Google" I mean "don't do that". That's not a business, it's a temporary revenue stream. Build a brand, and incent visitors to visit "because it's you" not because Google thought that's what they were looking for.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
                              Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

                              We may actually be saying the same thing here, just approaching it differently - I'm with you on that. I just see a lot of people center their entire business around Google, and then they end up here starting threads like this one.

                              If your business was started because one day you said "Ooh, I'm going to get awesome-keyword-domain.com and then I'm going to build a site and rank the shit out of that site and get all of this free traffic and some percentage of those people will click ads or buy X" then you're going to end up like our friend Xelaetaks here.

                              When I say "Plan your business without Google" I mean "don't do that". That's not a business, it's a temporary revenue stream. Build a brand, and incent visitors to visit "because it's you" not because Google thought that's what they were looking for.
                              The best way I've thought to build up brand online is putting money into facebook advertising for a consistant amount of time. I've yet to find a way to build up traffic to an ecommerce site like search results can but I am looking into it. To be profitable without relying on Google would be the ideal situation.

                              With a store outside the internet it seems a bit easier cause you get passing by traffic, online a lot of people simply search for products they want. A lot of pages on my site are simply educational articles in the niche but I think penalty is what holds some of the content from ranking much.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ronrule
                                Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

                                The best way I've thought to build up brand online is putting money into facebook advertising for a consistant amount of time. I've yet to find a way to build up traffic to an ecommerce site like search results can but I am looking into it. To be profitable without relying on Google would be the ideal situation.

                                With a store outside the internet it seems a bit easier cause you get passing by traffic, online a lot of people simply search for products they want. A lot of pages on my site are simply educational articles in the niche but I think penalty is what holds some of the content from ranking much.
                                People who are searching for products by name will always be an easier sell than people searching a category keyword, but you can still be in Google results without SEO. I know there a lot of mixed feelings about AdWords here on WF, but I for one am a huge fan and prefer it over organic SEO. The mistake people make is in thinking the "max bid" needs to be THEIR bid. It doesn't. They see a keyword and it's $6 a click and they say "I can't afford PPC because $6 per click is too expensive", but they don't have to bid $6 per click. You can bid 30 cents if you want. Bid what you can afford and what makes sense for your margins. Your ad will be shown less, but that's OK because you're only paying for it when it's clicked. I'm never the high bidder on any keywords, but I get profitable traffic all day long at a controlled cost. No waiting for rankings, no cluttering up pages with content, no trying to balance a page around a keyword. If I want ten keywords to point to the same page, I can have that without wasting a minute on SEO.

                                If I had to start a brand new site right now, with no knowledge of how well that site converts, I'd only do PPC. I'd test a broad variety of keywords and after I've had a few thousand visitors and could establish a realistic baseline conversion rate, I'd start kicking out the keywords that didn't convert and focus my cash on the ones that did. And then if I found some consistent performers, maybe do some basic optimization for those specific phrases to offset the PPC budget, but I wouldn't turn the PPC budget off, even if I made it to #1 organic. Even if I'm #1 organic today, I might not be tomorrow - it's not always an algorithm change that unseats you, an aggressive competitor may be trying to rank on that word, so the results can change at any time. My operating costs, however, are there whether I make money that day or not, so it's not worth betting my business on rankings when I can guarantee whatever position I want through paid traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author yogyogi
    Believe me there are SEO's who can work with you in recovering you website. To name the biggest are the 'moz' who creates the case studies of every panda and penguin update. They understand google search engine laws very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author misshang
    First if you do care about your business, don't negative optimize your page/site. Try different ways of driving traffic other than natural search result, build your list, use social media to interact with your customers, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

    Re: G00gle destroyed my business
    As much as I detest google and consider them to be the scum sucking filthy hypocrites of humanity... to be fair, we, as online marketers who expect to get search traffic, have sort of chosen voluntarily to go to war with Google (and the other search engines).

    Google wants to serve users with relevant, useful INFORMATION, and agrees to refer people to useful relevant information pages. We want to get our SALES pages to rank up there, get clicked on, and sell product, so we set out to make our sales pages seem to be informative and relevant. We are working at cross purposes. Period.

    Having elected to wage war on Google, we can't very much cry foul when they launch a rocket into our position.

    I'm just saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    I know the cliche "don't have all your eggs in one basket" gets a bit old but when building an online business it's necessary to follow that rule.

    Depending on SEO for income is a very scary thing, you can't control it, and you can't really scale effectively anyway.

    RonRule has said some very wise things in this thread and I'd recommend you reread it all. It's important.

    Other than that... my recommendation is that instead of just deleting all the links, start building new, legit links along with deleting the crappy old ones. Start approaching your SEO in a different light, instead of relying on SEO, build a brand. Use Facebook PPC, Pinterest, Adwords, post in related forums, maybe use offline marketing techniques to drive business. You don't have to be depending on Google for anything, though when you get some love from them it is nice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
    Thanks. I find Google PPC to be a little over my budget at the moment but I have had some luck with facebook ads and find them reasonably priced. I haven't seen conversions from Facebook though but my guess is it might be more of a long term game- advertise for a month or two before people think to go through with a buy on a site, etc.

    I'm also looking into more linking opportunities since that does seem essential even with working on recovery.

    I also added these 100 garbage links that were sent to me onto the disavow tool by a spammy web directory owner so hopefully that covers that. The idea I've heard about Google is to get your site in a position where they would look stupid to not rank you which I think sounds like the right idea.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

      Thanks. I find Google PPC to be a little over my budget at the moment but I have had some luck with facebook ads and find them reasonably priced. I haven't seen conversions from Facebook though but my guess is it might be more of a long term game- advertise for a month or two before people think to go through with a buy on a site, etc.
      In that case, Facebook is actually a lot more expensive than AdWords. Zero ROI is a waste of money.
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      • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        In that case, Facebook is actually a lot more expensive than AdWords. Zero ROI is a waste of money.
        True point. I was thinking about that too - it could be Facebook doesn't get conversions like PPC might on Google and Bing.
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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by Xelaetaks View Post

      Thanks. I find Google PPC to be a little over my budget at the moment but I have had some luck with facebook ads and find them reasonably priced. I haven't seen conversions from Facebook though but my guess is it might be more of a long term game- advertise for a month or two before people think to go through with a buy on a site, etc.

      I'm also looking into more linking opportunities since that does seem essential even with working on recovery.

      I also added these 100 garbage links that were sent to me onto the disavow tool by a spammy web directory owner so hopefully that covers that. The idea I've heard about Google is to get your site in a position where they would look stupid to not rank you which I think sounds like the right idea.
      If you can afford 25 cents per click, it's in your budget. It will be infinitely more profitable than facebook... people searching for exactly what you're selling vs people looking at pictures of cats and posting selfies and doing everything but look for products to buy, which do you think will convert?

      The most successful facebook campaigns aren't actually driven by Facebook, they're driven by Google. Set up adwords remarketing, drive people to the page with Facebook, stalk them with remarketing banners later. But even that combination isn't as good as search - the trick with AdWords is sticking with it long enough for the click and converdion Dara to mean something. Some words won't convert, but you won't know that with a couple hundred clicks. I would start with specific products, exact match the name and land them right on the product page. Never advertise your homepage, always send the visitor to a specific product or subcategory.
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      • Profile picture of the author Xelaetaks
        Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

        If you can afford 25 cents per click, it's in your budget. It will be infinitely more profitable than facebook... people searching for exactly what you're selling vs people looking at pictures of cats and posting selfies and doing everything but look for products to buy, which do you think will convert?

        The most successful facebook campaigns aren't actually driven by Facebook, they're driven by Google. Set up adwords remarketing, drive people to the page with Facebook, stalk them with remarketing banners later. But even that combination isn't as good as search - the trick with AdWords is sticking with it long enough for the click and converdion Dara to mean something. Some words won't convert, but you won't know that with a couple hundred clicks. I would start with specific products, exact match the name and land them right on the product page. Never advertise your homepage, always send the visitor to a specific product or subcategory.
        Thanks. That sounds like a plan. I'll look into trying an adwords campaign like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Electrical
        Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

        If you can afford 25 cents per click, it's in your budget. It will be infinitely more profitable than facebook... people searching for exactly what you're selling vs people looking at pictures of cats and posting selfies and doing everything but look for products to buy, which do you think will convert?
        I've had the same problem with Adwords as I've had with SEO, I can't find anyone who actually knows what they are doing to set it up for me.

        I offered good money, I found so-called experts who specifically know local PPC (since I'm a local oriented business), and they got me thousands of clicks thru to my website. But I got 0 calls from them.

        My website does pretty well converting organic visitors from Google, but every single PPC visitor hit the back button, so however the "Pro" set it up, he was aiming it the wrong people.

        And then I'm back at the beginning.
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        • Profile picture of the author ronrule
          Originally Posted by Electrical View Post

          I've had the same problem with Adwords as I've had with SEO, I can't find anyone who actually knows what they are doing to set it up for me.

          I offered good money, I found so-called experts who specifically know local PPC (since I'm a local oriented business), and they got me thousands of clicks thru to my website. But I got 0 calls from them.

          My website does pretty well converting organic visitors from Google, but every single PPC visitor hit the back button, so however the "Pro" set it up, he was aiming it the wrong people.

          And then I'm back at the beginning.
          You said something that caught my attention here... you said the word "call". If your conversion is a phone number, how do you know it isn't working? Are you showing a different phone number for PPC visitors and tracking by which number is called? Does that number stay visible (via a cookie) so if the user bookmarks and comes back later you know they were originally driven by a paid click vs. organic? If you aren't tracking it properly, you may actually be getting conversions from PPC but aren't just properly counting them.

          Another thing about phone-based conversions (and we deal with this this ALL the time with TV products) is that the CLICK and the CALL often happen at different times. I don't know what your business is, but let's say you're looking for a cleaner or a moving company or some other service. You're "researching" at the office, but you aren't in a position to call yet. So you look around, make your decision, then bookmark the site you want to do business with or email the link to yourself to remember. Later that evening, the next day, week, whenever it's convenient, THEN you get around to calling. That's a disconnect that can make your marketing seem ineffective when really it isn't. (We call this "drag" in the infomercial business - the period in which we've stopped advertising but sales are still coming in. This can be as little as a weekend or as long as a couple months depending on how strong the media campaign was).

          Putting that aside, if you're 100% certain that you're adequately tracking paid clicks separately from organic clicks, then I would venture a guess that the keywords you're targeting or the page you're sending visitors to just aren't right. You should never send a visitor to your homepage, always send them to the most relevant page - the same page Google would drop them on if you were ranking organically for that phrase. Other than that, it may just be the wrong keywords. Sometimes broad match phrases, the ones you're probably bidding on, have more competition on them which means the user searching has more choices.

          If I searched "tampa moving companies" I would get all of the moving companies in the area in my results, both paid and organic. But if I searched for something more specific (a smaller city like Oldsmar, or a "mini city" like Westchase) I would get fewer results and thus any of those companies would likely convert higher for those phrases than they convert on the larger city.
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          • Profile picture of the author Electrical
            Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

            You said something that caught my attention here... you said the word "call". If your conversion is a phone number, how do you know it isn't working? Are you showing a different phone number for PPC visitors and tracking by which number is called? Does that number stay visible (via a cookie) so if the user bookmarks and comes back later you know they were originally driven by a paid click vs. organic? If you aren't tracking it properly, you may actually be getting conversions from PPC but aren't just properly counting them.
            Excellent question. I have a kinda odd way that I was tracking it (I'm not currently doing PPC since it failed in the past and I haven't found anyone who I trust to do it now).

            First, the amount of calls per month was exactly the same during the period I had Adwords going as it was before (and after).

            Second, I would look calls up in Google Analytics. I have 50 towns surrounding me, so let's say I got a call from people in Englewood, Caldwell, and Montclair during the day and those people told me that they found me thru my website (I ask). Later on that night I would lookup those towns in Analytics and see whether they found me via PPC or organic. I would also see the landing page that they got to the website thru.

            So while I was getting hundreds of PPC visitors, none of them corresponded with the ones who actually called.


            Another thing about phone-based conversions (and we deal with this this ALL the time with TV products) is that the CLICK and the CALL often happen at different times. I don't know what your business is, but let's say you're looking for a cleaner or a moving company or some other service. You're "researching" at the office, but you aren't in a position to call yet. So you look around, make your decision, then bookmark the site you want to do business with or email the link to yourself to remember. Later that evening, the next day, week, whenever it's convenient, THEN you get around to calling. That's a disconnect that can make your marketing seem ineffective when really it isn't. (We call this "drag" in the infomercial business - the period in which we've stopped advertising but sales are still coming in. This can be as little as a weekend or as long as a couple months depending on how strong the media campaign was).

            Putting that aside, if you're 100% certain that you're adequately tracking paid clicks separately from organic clicks, then I would venture a guess that the keywords you're targeting or the page you're sending visitors to just aren't right. You should never send a visitor to your homepage, always send them to the most relevant page - the same page Google would drop them on if you were ranking organically for that phrase. Other than that, it may just be the wrong keywords. Sometimes broad match phrases, the ones you're probably bidding on, have more competition on them which means the user searching has more choices.

            If I searched "tampa moving companies" I would get all of the moving companies in the area in my results, both paid and organic. But if I searched for something more specific (a smaller city like Oldsmar, or a "mini city" like Westchase) I would get fewer results and thus any of those companies would likely convert higher for those phrases than they convert on the larger city.
            I had the PPC guy put up ads for specific services and aim those at landing pages for those services. Those landing pages do well organically.

            I'm thinking the problem is just an incompetent PPC manager. And I don't know enough about it to see what exactly he was doing wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Delboy Trotter
    so it's time for you to start not relating upon google, google isn't the only way to get traffic, try social medias while waiting from recovering or ppc, you can get more traffic than from SE,
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Maybe a lead capture form would work better for you than calls (or at least in addition to it). Get their email, phone, name, best time to contact, etc. Don't make any mandatory, take whatever they are willing to provide and then reach out to them. For one because you can track that submission down to a specific keyword (which you can't do if they are calling) but also because lot of people simply won't call and prefer to communicate online. Right now you don't know what's working and what isn't. You may be spending 80% of your money on keywords that aren't doing jack, when you could instead be spending it only on the 20% that's producing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Electrical
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      Maybe a lead capture form would work better for you than calls (or at least in addition to it). Get their email, phone, name, best time to contact, etc. Don't make any mandatory, take whatever they are willing to provide and then reach out to them. For one because you can track that submission down to a specific keyword (which you can't do if they are calling) but also because lot of people simply won't call and prefer to communicate online. Right now you don't know what's working and what isn't. You may be spending 80% of your money on keywords that aren't doing jack, when you could instead be spending it only on the 20% that's producing.
      I have a contact submission form on the sidebar of every page on my website. I also have a direct e-mail link in addition to the phone number.

      People use all 3 methods but they call far more than the other 2. I think most people want an instant response and to schedule something right then and there. That's why I don't get many voicemails when I miss calls, the potential customer just calls the next company on the list.

      You are 100% right about me not knowing what is working and what's not. I really need to get with a good PPC manager.
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