I Learned My Lesson Building Backlinks too Fast!

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I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
#backlinks #building #fast #learned #lesson
  • Profile picture of the author The Storm
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by The Storm View Post

      How long will it take for things to right themselves do you think?

      That is the million dollar question. I don't know but if anyone has any experience with their site being sent to the nether regions and coming back i would love to hear about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        That is the million dollar question. I don't know but if anyone has any experience with their site being sent to the nether regions and coming back i would love to hear about it.
        2-3 months, 3 is likely.
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      • Profile picture of the author Carlos Castro
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        That is the million dollar question. I don't know but if anyone has any experience with their site being sent to the nether regions and coming back i would love to hear about it.
        Are you sure it's just not doing the Google dance? Whenever you get high quality links back to your site, especially if it's a newer site your site will bounce around until the G algo decides where to place your site.

        If your site has been sandboxed the fastest way to get it out is to add a blog to it and post article snippets with links back to the articles every day.
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      • Profile picture of the author Domenic Carlson
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        That is the million dollar question. I don't know but if anyone has any experience with their site being sent to the nether regions and coming back i would love to hear about it.
        It depends where you get banned from and for what. We did an experiment concerning backlinks and got banned from Yahoo. It took us about a month or two but we got back into their good graces by deleting most of our unsavory links (after the experiment was over), but we had gone from page 1 to page 6 and it took 3-4 more months to get back to page #1.

        It probably wasn't that you got so many links so quickly (although that does hurt you), but it was where they were coming from. Those sources are clearly link farms and Google knows this, I'm sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyCee
    Yeh building backlinks too fast can be a problem as Google will see your site as spam. However, it also depends on the quality of the links your getting. I would pick quality over quantity all of the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Building backlinks fast is not a problem.


    The reason you've been penalized is because you RANDOMLY started getting 285 backlinks per day. You set off their spam filter. If you start from day one building 285 per day, and MAINTAIN it, you'll be fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Building backlinks fast is not a problem.


      The reason you've been penalized is because you RANDOMLY started getting 285 backlinks per day. You set off their spam filter. If you start from day one building 285 per day, and MAINTAIN it, you'll be fine.
      That's interesting, i did not know that. But i am going to build them slowly from now on. I just hope my sight will see the light of day again.
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  • Profile picture of the author craigc1980
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Building backlinks at a steady pace works with google. But too many will put up a red flag.

    Not only will google lower your ranking but your site can also get blacklisted for these actions.

    Google looks at this as a blackhat method for some reason.

    Im not sure if it is because they think it is a software people are using or just dont like fast link building in general.

    I have learned building tons of backlinks from bloggers seem to be ok but other methods for some reason search engines think your using some type of black hat voodoo tricks
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    • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
      Originally Posted by craigc1980 View Post

      Im not sure if it is because they think it is a software people are using or just dont like fast link building in general.

      I have learned building tons of backlinks from bloggers seem to be ok but other methods for some reason search engines think your using some type of black hat voodoo tricks
      Google wants backlinks to build up naturally - from other people link to your site because they find your site credible. If you get so many of these "natural" links overnight, well you're either a god incarnate or you've been using some underhanded means to get yourself links. 99.9% of the time, Google is more likely to believe the latter.
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      • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
        Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post

        Google wants backlinks to build up naturally - from other people link to your site because they find your site credible. If you get so many of these "natural" links overnight, well you're either a god incarnate or you've been using some underhanded means to get yourself links. 99.9% of the time, Google is more likely to believe the latter.
        Problem is Google SHOULDN'T /CAN'T / DOES NOT penalize/filter a website CAUSE that damn thing is out of site owner's control.

        :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author usearchme2
          Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

          Problem is Google SHOULDN'T /CAN'T / DOES NOT penalize/filter a website CAUSE that damn thing is out of site owner's control.

          :rolleyes:
          Glad you said that lol, i think that therefore ends this conversation !
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          • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
            Originally Posted by usearchme2 View Post

            Glad you said that lol, i think that therefore ends this conversation !
            People often forget the artillery of items conditioning Google rankings.

            Backlinks ALONE don't create problems. Thats my personal opinion.

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            • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
              Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

              People often forget the artillery of items conditioning Google rankings.

              Backlinks ALONE don't create problems. Thats my personal opinion.

              This is probably the most accurate reply in this thread so far... "my opinion" There's always very little open mindedness in these kinds of discussions. The only truth about Google's algorithm is nobody knows what is going on. The best we can do is to reverse engineer our own results.

              Unfortunately most people stop monitoring at the first event and make a final conclusion. "My site dropped after a lots of backlinks, therefore google drops sites with too many backlinks." Then off they go telling everybody they have tested it and know what they are talking about.

              They could be right, or wrong about the result but it is far from being a solid and well founded conclusion.

              I have tested and monitored things like this for the last three or four years and I still often change my mind. To reverse engineer something like the Google algorithm to get any kind of certainty, you will not only need thousands of sites and pages, you would also need many thousands of varying links, coming from many thousands of varying sites, relevant sites, non relevant sites etc.. and you would also need the changes to happen fast in order to see what is affected and how.

              The fact that Google can take weeks or months to respond to back links, I doubt anybody will ever be able to monitor the results accurately enough to get consistent results, it would take many years and by that time, the alg would have changed and the test would need to start all over again.

              The best we can do is to have our own gut feelings on what we think is happening, or we can produce some "probable" results - not definite. Nobody in this thread knows whether Google penalises a site for too many backlinks. My OPINION is this - they do not. Perhaps too many links from known spam sites or sites that appear spammy but that's about it.

              If they did penalise a site for too many backlinks coming in too fast then that would go against everything they suggest about being white hat.

              The same people that advise us never to build backlinks too fast are usually the same people to tell us how we should create content that's so good it goes viral. Really? In that case, exactly "how viral" should we go before the links come in so fast that we get penalised for doing it the right way? Everything is opinion.

              I have my own opinion and they go against what most people are saying in here. Doesn't make me right, or wrong. I won't bother with details but my findings are with new sites it has nothing to do with the amount of backlinks, it has everything to do with what Google thinks those backlinks are saying about the site. For new sites, Google often has a hard time figuring out what the content is about.

              For instance..

              Create a domain named dogfood.com but do not put any content on the site other than a page title that says dog food. Google thinks it's about dog food. Now fill it with content all about dogs and taking them for walks, cleaning them etc, but mention dog food only once. Now what is the site about? Is it dog food or dog cleaning or whatever. The domain name and title tag might be strong indicators but it's not the only thing that determines the result. For every one thing you do that tells Google your site is about one thing, you are doing many others that might make the algorithm re-evaluate.

              The more words in your article, the harder it makes the algorithm work to figure it out. The same goes for more pages on your site. Also the same goes with backlinks. If I have a site about dogs but get links from sites all about cars then I create problems for the algorithm. If my anchor text varies, I create more problems.

              In my OPINION this is what is happening with new sites and nothing else. It can take some time before your site settles, the more you do with it at the beginning, the more you confuse Google about the site content and what it should rank you for. Once the site has aged and settled then it responds differently (and faster) but is not set in stone. Here's a hint, when your site is new, the Google adsense preview tool is your best weapon to get a site ranking quickly.

              Take it all with a pinch of salt

              Lee
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              • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
                Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

                In my OPINION this is what is happening with new sites and nothing else. It can take some time before your site settles, the more you do with it at the beginning, the more you confuse Google about the site content and what it should rank you for.

                Lee
                Good reasoning. I think and I somehow believe part of the truth is this too. That could the reason why the engineers over there screw up so many times. It's like finding out the reason why your pet gets sick after you've fed it with tons of good food. But when you stop feeding these to it, it bounces back

                Hardi
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              • Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

                This is probably the most accurate reply in this thread so far... "my opinion" There's always very little open mindedness in these kinds of discussions. The only truth about Google's algorithm is nobody knows what is going on. The best we can do is to reverse engineer our own results.

                Unfortunately most people stop monitoring at the first event and make a final conclusion. "My site dropped after a lots of backlinks, therefore google drops sites with too many backlinks." Then off they go telling everybody they have tested it and know what they are talking about.

                They could be right, or wrong about the result but it is far from being a solid and well founded conclusion.

                I have tested and monitored things like this for the last three or four years and I still often change my mind. To reverse engineer something like the Google algorithm to get any kind of certainty, you will not only need thousands of sites and pages, you would also need many thousands of varying links, coming from many thousands of varying sites, relevant sites, non relevant sites etc.. and you would also need the changes to happen fast in order to see what is affected and how.

                The fact that Google can take weeks or months to respond to back links, I doubt anybody will ever be able to monitor the results accurately enough to get consistent results, it would take many years and by that time, the alg would have changed and the test would need to start all over again.

                The best we can do is to have our own gut feelings on what we think is happening, or we can produce some "probable" results - not definite. Nobody in this thread knows whether Google penalises a site for too many backlinks. My OPINION is this - they do not. Perhaps too many links from known spam sites or sites that appear spammy but that's about it.

                If they did penalise a site for too many backlinks coming in too fast then that would go against everything they suggest about being white hat.

                The same people that advise us never to build backlinks too fast are usually the same people to tell us how we should create content that's so good it goes viral. Really? In that case, exactly "how viral" should we go before the links come in so fast that we get penalised for doing it the right way? Everything is opinion.

                I have my own opinion and they go against what most people are saying in here. Doesn't make me right, or wrong. I won't bother with details but my findings are with new sites it has nothing to do with the amount of backlinks, it has everything to do with what Google thinks those backlinks are saying about the site. For new sites, Google often has a hard time figuring out what the content is about.

                For instance..

                Create a domain named dogfood.com but do not put any content on the site other than a page title that says dog food. Google thinks it's about dog food. Now fill it with content all about dogs and taking them for walks, cleaning them etc, but mention dog food only once. Now what is the site about? Is it dog food or dog cleaning or whatever. The domain name and title tag might be strong indicators but it's not the only thing that determines the result. For every one thing you do that tells Google your site is about one thing, you are doing many others that might make the algorithm re-evaluate.

                The more words in your article, the harder it makes the algorithm work to figure it out. The same goes for more pages on your site. Also the same goes with backlinks. If I have a site about dogs but get links from sites all about cars then I create problems for the algorithm. If my anchor text varies, I create more problems.

                In my OPINION this is what is happening with new sites and nothing else. It can take some time before your site settles, the more you do with it at the beginning, the more you confuse Google about the site content and what it should rank you for. Once the site has aged and settled then it responds differently (and faster) but is not set in stone. Here's a hint, when your site is new, the Google adsense preview tool is your best weapon to get a site ranking quickly.

                Take it all with a pinch of salt

                Lee
                Pretty much what I meant, though rather than content I pinned the problem on the backlinks. The site is new and it received tons of backlinks.

                Fair enough google might not of seen all of the backlinks but considering the site is new, depending on the diversity of his anchor, google might of seen it fit to re-evaluate in order to make sure they got the rankings right.

                It could be a million reasons, but I think its either google picked up the majority of backlinks off a fluke in quick succession or google simply wants to re-evaluate the site and its backlinks to make sure its previous rankings are viable compared to the source of links and the anchor used.

                That's my theory. Though truth is no one knows and no answer is right, nor are any correct. So the petty arguments that go on aren't won by anyone, nor are they ever resolved because truth is we'll never know. Unless ofcourse google employs you as a programmer to help on the algorithm.
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post

        Google wants backlinks to build up naturally - from other people link to your site because they find your site credible. If you get so many of these "natural" links overnight, well you're either a god incarnate or you've been using some underhanded means to get yourself links. 99.9% of the time, Google is more likely to believe the latter.
        I cant wait to meet the programmer who can code suspiscion, the concept of natural link building, or the concept of desire or want into binary 1's and zeros into a patentable algo.
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        • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
          Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

          I cant wait to meet the programmer who can code suspiscion, the concept of natural link building, or the concept of desire or want into binary 1's and zeros into a patentable algo.
          Meh, no need. Thousands of backlinks overnight just *sounds* artificial. That's all I was getting at.
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          • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
            Originally Posted by moneysoapbox View Post

            Meh, no need. Thousands of backlinks overnight just *sounds* artificial. That's all I was getting at.
            Nope, my site actually rank high when I send 3K links in 3 days. You can do anything if you know how...

            I already PM OP, if he is working on my suggestion, I guarantee his site will be back in a week. However, if he is still wondering around and do nothing, that may take weeks to months, eventually his site will come back, no big deal.

            All The Best,

            Kok Choon
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    • Profile picture of the author MyInterest
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      • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
        Originally Posted by MyInterest View Post

        I am totally agree with your statement. Google make blacklist the websites for these reasons.
        blacklist?

        Then you've to congratulate G for spending more money to hire human eyes to check the sites. Perhaps G could outsource to India

        Blacklisting websites is rare, unless it's absolutely necessary.


        Hardi
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        • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
          And I find it amusing when Shannon said this "My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page."

          Anyone knows what's wrong here?

          I don't want to reveal it.


          Hardi
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
            Originally Posted by Hardi Wijaya View Post

            And I find it amusing when Shannon said this "My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page."

            Anyone knows what's wrong here?

            I don't want to reveal it.


            Hardi
            Yes you are right Hardi it wasn't smart to put on so many backlinks to a site that was already on the first page, i was just trying to get to the top spot.
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            • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
              Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

              Yes you are right Hardi it wasn't smart to put on so many backlinks to a site that was already on the first page, i was just trying to get to the top spot.
              When you're on the way to the top, it's better to change your linking strategy. I can't tell you what to do, because I don't know your niche and your competitors. And I don't know the link history.

              But let me give you a rough idea according to a story of a client.

              This guy had bunches of 1-way links from forum profiles. He got no. 11 rank for a highly competitive keyword. And he got too ambitious. So, he ordered more links.

              Bomb... the rank dropped drastically and it took over 2 months to climb back. It went back to no. 29 and the ranking looked stagnant.

              That's the reason why he hooked up with my manager for SEO consultation. The manager suggested building strong links. She did some 2-way and 3-way linking. And the rank is beginning to climb.


              Hardi
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              • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
                Originally Posted by Hardi Wijaya View Post

                When you're on the way to the top, it's better to change your linking strategy. I can't tell you what to do, because I don't know your niche and your competitors. And I don't know the link history.

                But let me give you a rough idea according to a story of a client.

                This guy had bunches of 1-way links from forum profiles. He got no. 11 rank for a highly competitive keyword. And he got too ambitious. So, he ordered more links.

                Bomb... the rank dropped drastically and it took over 2 months to climb back. It went back to no. 29 and the ranking looked stagnant.

                That's the reason why he hooked up with my manager for SEO consultation. The manager suggested building strong links. She did some 2-way and 3-way linking. And the rank is beginning to climb.


                Hardi
                I just started using 3 way links so hopefully that will help along with adding unique content
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Gregory
    This probably should have gone here: Adsense / PPC / SEO Discussion Forum

    But regardless, I have a few questions for you.

    How old is your site?
    How long ago did this happen?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

      This probably should have gone here: Adsense / PPC / SEO Discussion Forum

      But regardless, I have a few questions for you.

      How old is your site?
      How long ago did this happen?
      My bad, i wan't thinking were to put it.

      My site is 2 maybe 3 months old and it happened a few weeks ago.
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      • Profile picture of the author HCLee
        For such new sites this is a common problem. Some people get the Google dance or Google sandbox when they build backlinks too many too quick. From experience, I would say it takes at least 6 months before your site can get some stability in ranking.

        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        My bad, i wan't thinking were to put it.

        My site is 2 maybe 3 months old and it happened a few weeks ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author blackcat123
    I think you could have spread it over a longer period of time. Then there wouldn't be such an issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by blackcat123 View Post

      I think you could have spread it over a longer period of time. Then there wouldn't be such an issue.
      Yes next time i buy a package i will do that for sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author blackcat123
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        Yes next time i buy a package i will do that for sure.
        We have to learn by our mistakes to succeed in the future. Hope everything will go fine for you in the future
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      • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        Yes next time i buy a package i will do that for sure.
        I may not make a difference with regards to the next package. Here's why...

        1. Creating the exact same number of inbound links each day will generally raise a red flag.

        2. If the links originate from low-quality websites and blogs, they may be near worthless. You need to know the structure of the pages on which your links are created, including the number of outbound links on the pages, whether or not all the outbound links are relevant to your topic/niche, relevance of anchor text, variance of anchor text, the trust history of the pages and a few other important factors.

        Using the same keyword phrase anchor text for all your inbound links will also cause devaluation of your inbound links.

        3. If the link package seller is known to Google, then all bets are off and the above criteria will not matter anyway.

        When your site was at position or page #7, you would have done better by creating a random number of 1 to 7 good quality inbound links daily. Best case scenario would have these links coming from various type media (i.e. blog comments, forum signatures, press releases, feeder sites, etc.) - including regular dofollow and nofollow links.

        The key is to maintain a link building campaign that looks completely natural. Mass link building rarely meets this criteria.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    I said this before and I'll say it again:

    IF this is truly a backLink Filter / Penalization / whatever, t has to be the most STUPID thing Google ever invented.

    Why?

    Cause we can track new sites EASILY and kill them.

    Since new sites get top rankings for a couple days, ALL we need to to is check a new site at top, mark URL, check whois data, and send a big blast of backlinks to send that site to hell.

    ****, i can even create a script to check recently bought domain names with my chosen keywords to send them to hell!!!

    Now, IF Google is doing this ****, it has to be the MOST STUPID idea out of Google headquarters.

    They can devaluate those links, they can ignore them, but filter / penalize / sandbox / whatever it is, IS PURE EVIL cause a smart competitor can track new sites easily.

    Rant Off.

    P.S.: OP, many issues can send a new site down the drain, usually onsite issues. Have you checked everything?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      I said this before and I'll say it again:

      IF this is truly a backLink Filter / Penalization / whatever, t has to be the most STUPID thing Google ever invented.

      Why?

      Cause we can track new sites EASILY and kill them.

      Since new sites get top rankings for a couple days, ALL we need to to is check a new site at top, mark URL, check whois data, and send a big blast of backlinks to send that site to hell.

      ****, i can even create a script to check recently bought domain names with my chosen keywords to send them to hell!!!

      Now, IF Google is doing this ****, it has to be the MOST STUPID idea out of Google headquarters.

      They can devaluate those links, they can ignore them, but filter / penalize / sandbox / whatever it is, IS PURE EVIL cause a smart competitor can track new sites easily.

      Rant Off.

      P.S.: OP, many issues can send a new site down the drain, usually onsite issues. Have you checked everything?
      Well not sure exactly what you mean by checking everything, but all i know is shortly after i got my backlinks my site went bye bye
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      I said this before and I'll say it again:

      IF this is truly a backLink Filter / Penalization / whatever, t has to be the most STUPID thing Google ever invented.
      Yeah you have said it before and its been debunked many times before as well. You just choose every time to ignore it. The evidence is overwhelming even in this forum that too much spam backlinks tanks sites.

      The fact that new sites rank every day doesn't mean that you can tank them. If they have high quality on page PR backlinks they will insulate them from your spam backlinks. Google is not going to discount the solid backlinks they have. Their position was solidified based on the good links they had before your blast.

      Now if a new site that has little authority, weak backlinks (like forum, profile blog commenting etc) or just a few good ones all of a sudden rises to the top (or would have) on the strength of those links then they have nothing to insulate themselves for the "filter"

      Thats exactly what we see in this forum almost every other week. Stories of young sites without much authority falling like a rock after a blast of backlink building.
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      • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Thats exactly what we see in this forum almost every other week. Stories of young sites without much authority falling like a rock after a blast of backlink building.
        QDF - Query Deserves Freshness

        It has nothing to do with with backlink building, especially not on the very tiny scale most people who report this problem do it.

        Yes, if you spam out a new Viagra or natural weight loss site with 10K+ links in a week, you'll draw some attention to your site from the algorithm and probably tip off the Google web spam team too. Building any lasting property in certain heavily spammed niches requires a considerable amount of time and finesse to deal with Google's eagle eye (human and algorithmic) on these particular niches as well as cutthroat, long established, competition.

        Now, if you build 300 links in a week to your new bowling ball or knitting needle review site you won't even be noticed beyond the initial QDF period when you first get indexed and rocket to page #1. Then, the site drops to it's natural, non-QDF, level. Those 300 links fade out because some of them get deleted, devalued or moved and others simply never get indexed. Even worse, the building of backlinks stops due to laziness or misguided Googlenoia. Then the person who experiences this drop comes here and posts a whiny thread about building links to fast or .info domains are penalized or some other nonsense. (EDIT: Those who get some quality, real, authority links don't post this kind of thread though)

        BTW, I suggest anyone who wants to learn a little SEO, check out the top ranking sites for 'bowling balls' and 'knitting needles'. What do you think would need to do to beat those sites? What do you think would happen to your weakly linked, thin content, site on a brand new domain in those niches after the initial QDF boost?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bgmacaw View Post

          QDF - Query Deserves Freshness

          It has nothing to do with with backlink building, especially not on the very tiny scale most people who report this problem do it.
          Not what I was talking about. The people I am referring to have had their sites sitting in position for months and then drop from their position after a backlink blast. Kate D was just one example. QDF does not cover that.
          Honestly the only people I find denying this reality is Internet marketers. Its not a big dispute in SEO circles.
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          • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Not what I was talking about. The people I am referring to have had their sites sitting in position for months and then drop from their position after a backlink blast. Kate D was just one example. QDF does not cover that.
            I see this as an exception. The rule is that most people who post threads like this one have relatively new sites that are experiencing the QDF effect.

            As for the situation you mentioned, this has nothing to do with new link building. Coincidence isn't causality. As I mentioned in those threads, when I've seen something like this happen it's due to loss of old links due to deletion, movement or switching to nofollow or else an on-site problem such as WordPress database problems or hosting problems (site down, extremely slow loads, etc.). I've never seen a problem that could be tied to modest link building on the scale we're talking here (roughly 300-500 a week)

            The overall problem, which you have noted and we agree on, is the lack of stable authority links. Losing one authority link can cause a massive drop in rankings while gaining one can cause massive movement upward. Most people get unstable low value links, profile, social bookmarking, article directory links, blog comments/pingbacks and such. Nor do they try to reinforce those links with more links. Then they wonder why their ranking is so unstable.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by bgmacaw View Post

              I see this as an exception. The rule is that most people who post threads like this one have relatively new sites that are experiencing the QDF effect.
              There is no rule. I was referring to one thing and you were referring to another thing entirely. That is not QDF. QDF does NOT hold you in position for months.

              As for the situation you mentioned, this has nothing to do with new link building.
              You can claim it doesn't as much as you want but like I said we are not talking about the same thing so its off point. You can call it coincidence if you wish but to other people and the rest of the word its how tests are done. the idea is that if its repeated often enough its not coincidence. Its much more likely to be cause. Five hundred a week is not modest if you are doing the backlinks. That number is usually in reference to forum and provide backlinks and some serious blog commenting spam.

              So we agree on the quality issue but to me it goes hand in hand with quantity. You generally can't get five hundred links built yourself without going after low quality links

              Like I said this stuff is rarely contested (that building too fast is bad) in professional SEO circles partly because we KNOW that Google has looked at these things in the past. Heres a nice summary of the data that exists that confirms that these things are on Google's radar

              SEOmoz | Google's Patent - Information Retrieval Based on Historical Data.

              A money quote is this

              "The dates that links appear can also be used to detect "spam," where owners of documents or their colleagues create links to their own document for the purpose of boosting the score assigned by a search engine. A typical, "legitimate" document attracts back links slowly. A large spike in the quantity of back links may signal a topical phenomenon (e.g., the CDC web site may develop many links quickly after an outbreak, such as SARS), or signal attempts to spam a search engine (to obtain a higher ranking and, thus, better placement in search results) by exchanging links, purchasing links, or gaining links from documents without editorial discretion on making links."


              So we have Google listing the date and quantity of links as a factor to identify spam in one of its patents and we have sites dropping like rocks after maintaining their spot precisely when a backlink spam blast has been completed.

              Coincidence? Not likely.
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              • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                So we have Google listing the date and quantity of links as a factor to identify spam in one of its patents and we have sites dropping like rocks after maintaining their spot precisely when a backlink spam blast has been completed.

                Coincidence? Not likely.
                My first point, since it's totally escaping your grasp, is that what you're talking about only applies to truly massive link building in certain niches that are commonly and heavily spammed. It's obvious that not all keyword terms are monitored like this, even Google doesn't have the computing resources to accomplish this. It also only results in the new mass links being discounted or not counted, not a penalty to the site in question unless there are other factors in play that can be detected by visual inspector. Lastly, the patent you mentioned was to help Google combat massive site building scripts like YACG and Blogger Generator, not someone plodding along getting a lot of links manually or even with reasonable use of automation tools.

                Second point, a few hundred links isn't massive link building. Even several thousand isn't under most circumstances. I've pointed out several sites in previous threads of this nature which have gotten massive links overnight with no problem at all.

                What you're doing is making a bunch of noobs Googlenoid about getting stuff like sitewide links from common WordPress plugins, doing social bookmarking, using forum sigs and so forth. These common linking methods aren't a problem but you're giving people the false impression that they are.
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                • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
                  What you're doing is making a bunch of noobs Googlenoid about getting stuff like sitewide links from common WordPress plugins, doing social bookmarking, using forum sigs and so forth. These common linking methods aren't a problem but you're giving people the false impression that they are.
                  Google-noid - love it!

                  ... but this theory fits soooo nicely into the OP's newly minted White Hat Only persona.... aka The WF Backlinks Crusader. Saving newbs thru google-noid hysteria.
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                  • Profile picture of the author bay37
                    Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

                    Google-noid - love it!

                    ... but this theory fits soooo nicely into the OP's newly minted White Hat Only persona.... aka The WF Backlinks Crusader. Saving newbs thru google-noid hysteria.
                    rofl. Hilarious. :p

                    ---------------
                    Yeah all you guys should be checking seomoz and that other site for your backlinks info. And the true seo "crusaders", too.

                    A good indicator for quality info is - the amount of posts/day. You see, the more you know about SEO, the less time you need to spend working/testing (since you already know the "truth") - hence you can spend your days trolling forums, spreading the word. F*** yeah! That a life.
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                    • Profile picture of the author kposs
                      Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

                      A good indicator for quality info is - the amount of posts/day. You see, the more you know about SEO, the less time you need to spend working/testing (since you already know the "truth") - hence you can spend your days trolling forums, spreading the word. F*** yeah! That a life.
                      Or you're out actually putting your knowledge to use making more money!
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                      • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
                        In the Google TOS it says
                        or signal attempts to spam a search engine (to obtain a higher ranking and, thus, better placement in search results) by exchanging links, purchasing links,
                        and thats exactly what the OP did - PURCHASE LINKS
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jpaige
                          Originally Posted by Aussie_Al View Post

                          In the Google TOS it says

                          and thats exactly what the OP did - PURCHASE LINKS
                          So, if he manually built 2000 backlinks that day/week, it would've been okay? Any time, you're doing something unnatural, its going to raise a flag, whether you get a penalty or not, luck may be a bigger factor.
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                          • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
                            Originally Posted by Jpaige View Post

                            So, if he manually built 2000 backlinks that day/week, it would've been okay? Any time, you're doing something unnatural, its going to raise a flag, whether you get a penalty or not, luck may be a bigger factor.
                            Yeah thats right. It doesnt matter if your using software or whatever your using to get backlinks..if you just started a website and did 100 backlinks a day then that would be a normal thing..Right?

                            Google wouldnt un-index a website that did a bunch of backlinks per day from the beginning would it?
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by bgmacaw View Post

                  My first point, since it's totally escaping your grasp, is that what you're talking about only applies to truly massive link building in certain niches that are commonly and heavily spammed.
                  Says who? You. Not impressed. learn to read the link I just gave you before you talk about inability to grasp. What part of the patent or the analysis there is confusing you?

                  It's obvious that not all keyword terms are monitored like this
                  and where do you ascertain that its only viagra like sites? IN fact if anything Google cares less about ranking Porn, viagra and gambling sites. You can see that in the serps. Spoken like a non programmer who doesn't have the first clue. Everything that a bot does can be recorded and stored. once in the database the algorithm sorts. It doesn't have to do the sorting in every niche every day. You do not have a clue what niches Google applies it to or not. Your are fudging nonsense. NO? then present the evidence.
                  not someone plodding along getting a lot of links manually or even with reasonable use of automation tools.
                  Again fudging. Where in the patent does it name tools etc? Yes if you go along merrily manual linking you are not likely to hit that criteria but you claim that google finds five hundred in a week as normal growth is pulled out of thin air. You made it up. I've already stated that its the kind of links that you have to resort to that is the issue. Build five hundred without comment spam, forum/profile spam? NO you can get them if you have some solid content that people GIVE backlinks to. You can even achieve it through press releases but we all know what BUILDING backlinks means. Don't play clueless here. If you are building five hundred backlinks it s usually through - let me quote the patent you don't grasp"

                  " gaining links from documents without editorial discretion"


                  What you're doing is making a bunch of noobs Googlenoid about getting stuff like sitewide links from common WordPress plugins, doing social bookmarking, using forum sigs and so forth. These common linking methods aren't a problem but you're giving people the false impression that they are.
                  A) I'm not giving anyone a false impression. You are. Your pretending with a straight face that five hundred backlinks a week comes through means different than laid out in that definition of spam that Google is looking for.

                  B) You are violating board rules by advocating five hundred backlinks a week off of forum signatures and social bookmarking.

                  BUt hey keep pushing - especially B.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zen2health
      Well, Michael Graywolf wrote about a similar technique. He said you can tip over your competition by buying warez backlinks for their site. He didn't advise doing this, though. It's pure evil for sure. Obviously some sites can't be tipped over like amazon, wikipedia, about.com etc.

      Sorry first post, I was responding to someone on the first page, but missed their quote about tipping over new domains being evil or something.
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  • Profile picture of the author MisterMunch
    A good idea is to imitate the "inovators, early adopter" graph, when it comes to building backlinks.

    http://www.anythingresearch.com/Stra...tion-curve.png

    This will be the most natural link building. (Also profile links is no so natural, are they?)
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
    This happens on pretty much every domain I have that is less than about a year old, with much less links. A week, two weeks, six weeks or whatever, I'll bet it will be back again. Did you use the same anchor text in every link or vary it.

    Google takes some time (IMO) to figure out what a site should rank for. When you throw a variation of anchor text links at it, I think it makes Google work even harder to figure out what the site should rank for. Not a problem for an established site.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by L Wilson View Post

      This happens on pretty much every domain I have that is less than about a year old, with much less links. A week, two weeks, six weeks or whatever, I'll bet it will be back again. Did you use the same anchor text in every link or vary it.

      Google takes some time (IMO) to figure out what a site should rank for. When you throw a variation of anchor text links at it, I think it makes Google work even harder to figure out what the site should rank for. Not a problem for an established site.
      Yes i did use a variation of anchor text links. I haven't had a problem with my other sites. Some are on page 1 and some on page 2, but i did not build links too quickly too those sites either.
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  • Its not gone. It'll jump about abit with the addition of new links (as said about google has to analyze those links) and go straight back up in time.

    Read Terry kyles case study where his articles and blog would go up and down with new additions of links and go back up within a few days to a few weeks.

    Like said above, if addition of links would affect ranking, you could scout competition that look promising and delay their business by bombarding their new sites. And I'm sure if that was the case you'd see some of the larger sites doing it on the sly so to stop any upcomming competitors.

    I think with the vast amount of knowledge google staff have that they would not over look this.

    Guarantee it.

    Jay.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    The site is only 2 or 3 months old and you think a couple thousand backlinks has caused this drop?...

    Honestly, you're just getting started on that site.

    Google hasn't "punished" you, it hasn't even decided what to do with you yet!.... I can add over 3,000 back links to a 7 year old site and not see any issue.

    This has more to do with the age of your site, than it has to do with the back links. If you think adding back links like that to a domain is gonna hurt your ranking chances... You think wrong.

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      The site is only 2 or 3 months old and you think a couple thousand backlinks has caused this drop?...

      Honestly, you're just getting started on that site.

      Google hasn't "punished" you, it hasn't even decided what to do with you yet!.... I can add over 3,000 back links to a 7 year old site and not see any issue.

      This has more to do with the age of your site, than it has to do with the back links. If you think adding back links like that to a domain is gonna hurt your ranking chances... You think wrong.

      Jay
      Well everyone is going to have their opinion but it looks like they did decide what to do with me and that information is on the last page of Google.
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Gregory
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        Well everyone is going to have their opinion but it looks like they did decide what to do with me and that information is on the last page of Google.
        That may be true, but what some of us are trying to tell you is that the reasoning behind your thinking is inaccurate. We're just trying to help you understand the situation you are dealing with based on background and experience in this matter.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
          Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

          That may be true, but what some of us are trying to tell you is that the reasoning behind your thinking is inaccurate. We're just trying to help you understand the situation you are dealing with based on background and experience in this matter.
          I hear you and thank you but i wonder if i bought another backlink package and sent 2,000 links to another one of my sites would it see the same fate?
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

            I hear you and thank you but i wonder if i bought another backlink package and sent 2,000 links to another one of my sites would it see the same fate?
            Is the site the same age?

            Same keywords?

            Same structure?

            Same content?

            Same content published on the same days?

            If you answered No to these questions, then your answer is no. Every single site is different..

            Thus gets treated differently by Google.

            Jay
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            Bare Murkage.........

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            • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              Is the site the same age?

              Same keywords?

              Same structure?

              Same content?

              Same content published on the same days?

              If you answered No to these questions, then your answer is no. Every single site is different..

              Thus gets treated differently by Google.

              Jay
              Well no of course not but that still doesn't explain why (if you believe Google doesn't penalize) it is on the last page.
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            • Profile picture of the author Raghu Natrajan
              Hello Jay, can u please explain how to build back links.
              Raghu Natrajan
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Gregory
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      The site is only 2 or 3 months old and you think a couple thousand backlinks has caused this drop?...

      Honestly, you're just getting started on that site.

      Google hasn't "punished" you, it hasn't even decided what to do with you yet!.... I can add over 3,000 back links to a 7 year old site and not see any issue.

      This has more to do with the age of your site, than it has to do with the back links. If you think adding back links like that to a domain is gonna hurt your ranking chances... You think wrong.

      Jay
      That's exactly where I was going with my first question. It is ridiculous to think you will have any sort of stabilized rankings with a site that new. Now maybe if it was a really low competition longtail keyword you were targeting it might have had the potential to stay based solely on the fact that google may not be able to find anything else that would even be related to the targeted keyword, but even in that scenario you are still likely going to see ranking drops and bounces all over the place.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
        Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

        That's exactly where I was going with my first question. It is ridiculous to think you will have any sort of stabilized rankings with a site that new. Now maybe if it was a really low competition longtail keyword you were targeting it might have had the potential to stay based solely on the fact that google may not be able to find anything else that would even be related to the targeted keyword, but even in that scenario you are still likely going to see ranking drops and bounces all over the place.
        Well my other sites are staying pretty much on page 1 or 2 and one of them is older than the one that got sent to Google wasteland. Yes it is a long tail keyword with low competion.

        I understand bouncing all over the place but, last page after i send 2,000 backlinks and Google can't figure out where to put me?
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        • Profile picture of the author Lutz80
          Are all the backlinks even indexed yet I use these packages quite often myself and have never really had a issue usually the 2k backlinks are going to show up periodically anyway , unless you went and pinged the whole list usually it takes quite some time for google to find all of those links and index them etc. so it usually ends up looking natural. That is just my experience on the issue and most of the time with sites that new as others have said will bounce around depending on the quality of site, content, linking structure, and all of the baclinks and other content you put out there.

          But this is all just from my own experiences and others who I know. So anyway good luck to you getting back up in the search engines.

          Zac
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  • Profile picture of the author aim73
    I think this is the million dollar question and the SEO world is divided on this anyway.

    But for what it's worth, this has happened to me too. The site came back after three weeks, much stronger. Another site didn't come back until 6 months. So who knows.

    I'm more wont to believe what Fernando Veloso said that there could not possibly be such a "rule" in Google. At the very worst, it will probably signal a "human" to check it. But if you've got a site with good articles and is non-spammy at all, then I don't think there's anything to be worried about at all. But that's just my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnsongt
    I agree building them too fast and with low quality rank is not the best way to rank your page higher instead of 10-300 pr3's get 10 pr8-9's.
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  • Break it down this way.

    Rather than penalize you, see it from Googles point of view.

    They see a rather large amount of backlinks going to your website all of a sudden. Now that shows flags for them, and tells them that the site might need re-evaluation to make sure it is infact being given the most relevant rankings.

    So to prevent worser customer service, they move the site way below visibility in order to do a re-evaluation of the site to make sure that 1. a massive change has not been applied to the site in questions hence the new links, thus rendering it off topic to the placings it once had.

    Or to make sure that the site is still relevant.

    These again are my warped opinions of what's going on. But then again with Google giving away nothing a lot of the gurus make their own assumptions. Hence I have too.

    Though my theory sounds reasonable in my eyes.

    Jay.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Jason Perez O'Connor View Post

      Break it down this way.

      Rather than penalize you, see it from Googles point of view.

      They see a rather large amount of backlinks going to your website all of a sudden. Now that shows flags for them, and tells them that the site might need re-evaluation to make sure it is infact being given the most relevant rankings.

      So to prevent worser customer service, they move the site way below visibility in order to do a re-evaluation of the site to make sure that 1. a massive change has not been applied to the site in questions hence the new links, thus rendering it off topic to the placings it once had.

      Or to make sure that the site is still relevant.

      These again are my warped opinions of what's going on. But then again with Google giving away nothing a lot of the gurus make their own assumptions. Hence I have too.

      Though my theory sounds reasonable in my eyes.

      Jay.
      Yes i couldn't have said it better. I totally agree that this is what is going on.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          How on earth does moving the site "way below visibility" help them to "do a re-evaluation" - what exactly can they "re-evaluate" with it in one position in their SERP's that they couldn't "re-evaluate" with it in another position?!



          If you'll excuse the observation, only someone who had already made up his mind in advance could "agree" with that!
          I agree that what he is saying makes sense. People can change their mind and be swayed one way or another to agree or disagree. Before i was not sure exactly why they did it but i had a feeling from reading all the stuff about building links too fast.
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          How on earth does moving the site "way below visibility" help them to "do a re-evaluation" - what exactly can they "re-evaluate" with it in one position in their SERP's that they couldn't "re-evaluate" with it in another position?!



          If you'll excuse the observation, only someone who had already made up his mind in advance could "agree" with that!
          Backlinks effect serps - right? Pretty much undeniable.

          The causation being implied here is that they affected serps negatively. So then if you're in agreement with that then we must agree that backlinks affect serps.

          So the addition or subtraction or the type of links will have an effect. A algo is determining the proper placement in the serps for a site that has had a significant increase in links ... so where should the algo place the site in the serps whilst it reorganizes or calculates the proper place for the site with all these new backlinks? Position 1? Position 7 ... position 21 ... Page 9 ?

          There's at least 20 threads in the SEO Adsense PPC forum of this exact scenario, and without fail each site [ as far as I recall ] has returned to its former glory - OR - to the place in the SERPs it rightfully belonged after QDF wore off.

          Many people do this ... My NEW'ish site is sooo awesome ... Ive done such a masterful job on page seo'ing it and backlinking it and Ive created such awesome content that google is just loving it!!! Im already on page 1. When the truth is - they were all the while getting an artificial BOOST in the serps for FRESH NEW relevant content. Now they go and add a boatload of backlinks ... now the algo has to change your position. You've changed the formula [ which was bound to change anyway when their QDF boost went away ]

          Many folks cant come to grips with the notion that perhaps their site ended up closer to where it rightfully belongs ... and of course it MUST be the backlinks.

          Let's see where this wonderful page 1 worthy masterpiece ends up in 3 weeks.

          Having been thru this issue 3 times ... I know what Id be doing. and that is .... pouring on more content and backlinks. Mainly backlinks. In all the searches on google ive done - never seen a top 5 for a competitive term that didnt have copius amounts of backlinks. So ... you can get em slow or fast or not at all - your call.

          Good Luck!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author gjurovski
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    • Profile picture of the author marcdonovan
      This is just google dance. They have stated publicly that there is no blacklisting for links.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by gjurovski View Post

      I had a same problem with my last web site.
      I put too many links too fast and I had a problem with Google.
      I am glad i am not the only one who has had this issue.

      Sure someone could take a website and spam it death with backlinks to send them to the Google desert(those who say Google doesn't mind backlinks too fast or it won't hurt you) but how many people have actually done it?
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  • What I meant is, rather than leave the site high above in the serps. To reduce bad customer experience (incase a change of topic has been made on the site), they could move it down while the site is re-crawled.

    Then again that is my theory, could be wrong or right But since the change came along as soon as he used the backlinks, unless it was coincidental then what other reason could it be?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Jason Perez O'Connor View Post

      What I meant is, rather than leave the site high above in the serps. To reduce bad customer experience (incase a change of topic has been made on the site), they could move it down while the site is re-crawled.

      Then again that is my theory, could be wrong or right But since the change came along as soon as he used the backlinks, unless it was coincidental then what other reason could it be?
      right that is the point i was trying to make. The site has good content. I did all my SEO stuff right. It is not a spam site. That is just too much of a coincidence IMO.
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  • Would be interesting to see when the site goes back up, where it stands on page 1. Based on what is taught/said. The site should come back stronger, though do keep us posted.

    Mine usually come back stronger, though I've never tried a blast as big as 2000 links in a week before. I'm interested in seeing the following:

    whether it drops a few places, then slowly crawls back up as links are picked up.

    It instantly comes back stronger.

    Or whether it stays in the same position as before due to the links not being sufficient enough to boost it past the high competing sites.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Yes i will let you know when it comes back and where it does come back at. I really think if it would have stayed there all this time i would have made some sales by now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Radix
        Where are the backlinks being posted?

        If they plopped a bunch of backlinks to your site on a known link farm or some equally shady place, that'll do it almost every time.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
          Originally Posted by Radix View Post

          Where are the backlinks being posted?

          If they plopped a bunch of backlinks to your site on a known link farm or some equally shady place, that'll do it almost every time.
          Well i bought them here on the forum, I am not going to say from who because i wouldn't want anyone to lose business because people getting paranoid about backlinks. It wasn't their fault anyway it was mine for not telling them to spread them out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Gregory
    Well if you are so sure of this, why not buy the this same backlink package, direct them all at your competitors sites and just knock em out of your way.

    In fact, if you really want to test this I have no problem sending you a link to one of my sites that I would love for you to attempt to take down by sending massive amounts of links at it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

      Well if you are so sure of this, why not buy the this same backlink package, direct them all at your competitors sites and just knock em out of your way.

      In fact, if you really want to test this I have no problem sending you a link to one of my sites that I would love for you to attempt to take down by sending massive amounts of links at it.
      Well other people have said the same thing has happened to them so i don't know. I didn't know this was such a touchy/hot subject.
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    • Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

      Well if you are so sure of this, why not buy the this same backlink package, direct them all at your competitors sites and just knock em out of your way.

      In fact, if you really want to test this I have no problem sending you a link to one of my sites that I would love for you to attempt to take down by sending massive amounts of links at it.
      Think you got the wrong idea, atleast if that was directed at me.

      If not then excuse me for being paranoid hehe.
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Originally Posted by Peter Gregory View Post

      Well if you are so sure of this, why not buy the this same backlink package, direct them all at your competitors sites and just knock em out of your way.

      In fact, if you really want to test this I have no problem sending you a link to one of my sites that I would love for you to attempt to take down by sending massive amounts of links at it.
      I second that :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr.organizer
    Banned
    THis is so true building backlinks too fast will make GOOGLE very suspicious and can cause your site to be penalized
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    • Profile picture of the author yukinari84
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Building backlinks fast is not a problem.


      The reason you've been penalized is because you RANDOMLY started getting 285 backlinks per day. You set off their spam filter. If you start from day one building 285 per day, and MAINTAIN it, you'll be fine.
      Yep. Dead on. Consistency is important when building backlinks. If you just start blasting tons of backlinks to your site out of nowhere, that can be cause for a red flag.

      Originally Posted by Mr.organizer View Post

      THis is so true building backlinks too fast will make GOOGLE very suspicious and can cause your site to be penalized
      Not always, but done in the way the OP has done it, then most likely, yes.

      There are some other things you need to consider when getting backlinks:

      1. Quality of the links.
      2. Don't just promote your homepage. Deep link into your site.
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      • Profile picture of the author gamefan
        It might be Google dance. Will see if it is back in several days.
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      • Profile picture of the author FriendlyRob
        It still doesn't make sense to me that Google would penalize a site for building backlinks too fast. Depending on how you look at it, you have no real control over the number of links to your site.

        Everyone on this forum who has a website could create a backlink to your site...tonight!

        That would be thousands of links to your site, and there is nothing you can do about it. I always figure that a company that size has smart people in charge. That being said, they should be aware that you have no control over what links lead to your site.

        I'm not denying what happened to you, I would just urge you to consider other causes.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
          Originally Posted by FriendlyRob View Post

          It still doesn't make sense to me that Google would penalize a site for building backlinks too fast. Depending on how you look at it, you have no real control over the number of links to your site.

          Everyone on this forum who has a website could create a backlink to your site...tonight!

          That would be thousands of links to your site, and there is nothing you can do about it. I always figure that a company that size has smart people in charge. That being said, they should be aware that you have no control over what links lead to your site.

          I'm not denying what happened to you, I would just urge you to consider other causes.
          I am open to other causes and i would love to hear why.
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          • Profile picture of the author dburk
            Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

            I am open to other causes and i would love to hear why.
            Hi Shannon,

            I believe 4morereferrals nailed it when he said QDF. What you experienced is identical to what most webmasters experience. This same drop in rankings occurs whether you build mass backlinks or none at all.

            It's due to the effect of Freshness factor (QDF -Query Deserves Freshness). This is a well known feature of Google's algorithm that effects every new page in the same way. The more competitive the keyword the more dramatic the swing in rankings will be. Since your website is new, nearly every page on your site is going through the ranking drop at nearly the same time.

            It's probably just a coincidence that your link building was done just prior to the QDF effect wearing off. At the very least you must question your previous assumption since you have not allowed for the QDF effect in your initial conclusion.

            When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. When your new website suddenly drops in ranking, think QDF, not penalties.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
        Originally Posted by yukinari84 View Post

        Yep. Dead on. Consistency is important when building backlinks.
        Perhaps it's the 'dance' or something else.

        G doesn't penalize a site without human eyes physically checking it. Just imagine how many employees they've to hire!

        So, there's no substantial evidence in this matter. If there's, then G algo will hate the major news syndication such as Reuters, ABC, etc.

        Besides, competition can easily sabotage by supplying competing sides with million links if there's such thing.

        Some can argue that quality matters. I'd suggest giving us lots of evidences first. Because I've seen lots of contradicting things.


        Hardi
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      • Profile picture of the author culvers
        So my little site thats only getting a couple of links per week is plodding along. Suddenly someone picks up on that hilarious post i made a couple of days ago and it spreads around the internet and i get thousands of links in a couple of weeks. Naughty me for writing stuff that people like - to the bottom of the SERPS with you boy!

        :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          Originally Posted by culvers View Post

          So my little site thats only getting a couple of links per week is plodding along. Suddenly someone picks up on that hilarious post i made a couple of days ago and it spreads around the internet and i get thousands of links in a couple of weeks. Naughty me for writing stuff that people like - to the bottom of the SERPS with you boy!

          :rolleyes:

          Yes being popular will come with a price. But hey ....

          "All the kids are doing it!"
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Originally Posted by Mr.organizer View Post

      THis is so true building backlinks too fast will make GOOGLE very suspicious and can cause your site to be penalized
      Did google patent an algo that contains "suspicion"? I think my PC is suspicious I might be cheating on it with a MAC? What ta do?

      I have to wonder if this article is now under suspicion? I m sure it got more than a few thousand backlinks to it today

      English Actress Accuses Polanski of Abuse in 1980s - ABC News

      Ooops I just placed another "red flag" backlink to it - wonder if my link is the one that will trigger the google sandbox for this page? :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
        Originally Posted by kingston.knudsen View Post

        Alright I have a couple pieces of advice, just to see if you can solve this problem.

        1. If at anytime your site reappears in the ranking higher up, then please make sure you tell us here because this could well turn into a nice little case study!

        2. You should keep continually building links to it, don't just stop now! It's not a good thing at all and will only make sure you stay on the last page. Of course drop the load to something you can ACTUALLY handle to build this similar amount everyday. Maybe 20 -50 depending on how many backlinks you have to the site right now.

        I experienced this with one of my sites a while ago, I blasted a few hundred a day out of nowhere for a few days. it went from about 100 rank down to page 2. And guess what, i stopped building links and 3 weeks later it was completely deindexed from google for that keyword. So I have a question, you said you did this 2-3 weeks ago, well when did it move to the last page? and if it moved to the last page a couple days ago, i was wondering if you were building those backlinks for a couple of days, and then the last 2 weeks you didn't touch it at all? If so, I wanted to let you know that I got my website back in place after a month of being deindexed by writing a couple of press releases and submitting them to websites. This was the gradual way of building 20 or so backlinks a day. Sure enough my site was back in business.

        Please keep us updated as its too soon to determine what actually happened.
        Yes i will let everyone know if and when it moves back up in rankings.

        I am still building backlinks to it at the rate of 8 a day with three way links
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      • Profile picture of the author RalphRobert
        Yes, true. How many links do you need to create every week? Is there any criteria?

        How do we get backlinks from search engine?

        Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author ebizman87
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

        My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

        So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

        Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
        Instead of building a lot of links to your main site, it's better to INCREASE the page rank of an external site such as WEB 2.0 sites that are linking to your main site.

        Let's say you've an EZA Article linking to your site. Actually by building a lot of back links to your EZA article, you're increasing the page rank of that article thus improving your main site's ranking over a long term..

        If you had blasted 1000 of links to that article, it won't have any side effects to your main site because everyday EZA has been getting a lot of links and traffic all over the Internet.

        Imagine having 10 EZA articles with PR4 linking to your main site instead of having 20 articles with PR0?

        Which one will give you better ranking to your site?

        I've seen many reports and threads posted by people who had success by BLASTING 100 links a day to an external WEB 2.0 site that'll eventually help to increase their main site's ranking on GOOGLE.

        Of course it's not a good idea if you're SPENDING 15 hours a day building back links for other people's site such as EZA but if you have an automation tool to automate everything, then I highly recommend you to do that..
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      • Profile picture of the author BillWynne
        You need to use a "drip" system when it comes to article submissions or commenting.

        Does anyone know how many backlinks a day would be appropriate and keep you under the radar?

        I would imagine that the older your site the more backlinks would come naturally to your site. Think of all the backlinks coming to wikipedia from all the people that use it as a research site.

        Good post
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonB
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.
    You must have purchased some profile links?

    I don't think the links were added to your link count in 7 days.. I just think it took 7 days for them to get to your order and complete it.

    Google didn't count the 2,000 links that fast, shoot, I don't think its even possible..., but you never know, its Google.

    Sorry to hear about that...

    I still think you might have been penalized for something else, if in fact you were penalized.

    What site did you have the links built for?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by GuruCreation View Post

      You must have purchased some profile links?

      I don't think the links were added to your link count in 7 days.. I just think it took 7 days for them to get to your order and complete it.

      Google didn't count the 2,000 links that fast, shoot, I don't think its even possible..., but you never know, its Google.

      Sorry to hear about that...

      I still think you might have been penalized for something else, if in fact you were penalized.

      What site did you have the links built for?
      Yes they were profile links and no Google probably didn't count the links that fast. But like i said earlier a few days maybe after all those links were added my site was out of there.
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  • Profile picture of the author mfleisch
    Shannon.. I've been there. I know that some people don't take the speed of link building too seriously but I've been Google slapped - so I know what can happen. When I launched a new affiliate site, I came blazing out of the gate and built tons of inbound links. Although I was moving up the rankings I got penalized and could never build my ranking back to where it was originally.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by mfleisch View Post

      Shannon.. I've been there. I know that some people don't take the speed of link building too seriously but I've been Google slapped - so I know what can happen. When I launched a new affiliate site, I came blazing out of the gate and built tons of inbound links. Although I was moving up the rankings I got penalized and could never build my ranking back to where it was originally.

      Thanks i am glad some people believe me.:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    I didn't get a chance to read the other replies but the top few, but have you considered that google is reevaluating where to rank your site. It had you where it's calculations thought you should be. Now you have a butt load of new links that are coming in that are from random places I'm sure.

    Now google might be wondering where your site is most relevant where it knew before.

    If getting a huge amount of new links in a matter of days played such a big role against your ranking, then going viral would be a horrible thing. What if your brand new site posted an article that got picked up by MSN's frontpage? How many backlinks would you get in that first couple of days? In most cases more then 2000.

    Your site is too new to think that you had a solid ranking. It takes months to years to maintain a solid position in rankings.

    In no way do I know either way as fact, but this makes way more sense to me with what I've done with sites thus far.

    Travis
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by petelta View Post

      I didn't get a chance to read the other replies but the top few, but have you considered that google is reevaluating where to rank your site. It had you where it's calculations thought you should be. Now you have a butt load of new links that are coming in that are from random places I'm sure.

      Now google might be wondering where your site is most relevant where it knew before.

      If getting a huge amount of new links in a matter of days played such a big role against your ranking, then going viral would be a horrible thing. What if your brand new site posted an article that got picked up by MSN's frontpage? How many backlinks would you get in that first couple of days? In most cases more then 2000.

      Your site is too new to think that you had a solid ranking. It takes months to years to maintain a solid position in rankings.

      In no way do I know either way as fact, but this makes way more sense to me with what I've done with sites thus far.

      Travis
      I have to disagree about it taking months to years to get a solid ranking. It all depends on the keywords you are going after and how strong your competition on the first page of Google is.
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      • Profile picture of the author petelta
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        I have to disagree about it taking months to years to get a solid ranking. It all depends on the keywords you are going after and how strong your competition on the first page of Google is.
        Of course, but as you have seen your ranking wasn't set in stone in only a couple months. It always has to do with competition and the numbers. Thats why I said months to years. Some niches require years. Some months.

        Don't touch that site for a few months and then check to see where you are ranked. That will let you know if you really got "sandboxed" from a link package or if it's just Google's normal reevaluations I've seen happen often. Of course, I don't expect you to do that because you are trying to build it as a business.

        I've seen these posts a million times now and it never ends up being the dreaded too many links too soon situation in the end.

        Like stated before, your competition would just be backlinking your sites if that was the case.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonB
    I definitely don't see anything about how you built your backlinks and how many Google sees for them to penalize it...

    There are several upon several other ways for your website to have been penalized...

    I'm only showing you to have a total of 151 backlinks pointing to your site... And 0 are showing from Google.. Out of the 2000 profile links you ordered a couple of weeks ago, I see about 25 indexed in a few Search Engines, but none in Google.

    I suggest you do this, if you haven't already.

    Fetch as Googlebot

    In order to use Fetch as Googlebot, you'll need to have added and verified your site in Webmaster Tools
    1. On the Webmaster Tools Home page, click the site you want.
    2. On the Dashboard, under Labs, click Fetch as Googlebot.
    3. In the text box, type the path to the page you want to check.
    4. In the dropdown list, select the type of fetch you want. To see what their web crawler Googlebot sees, select Web.
    5. Click Fetch.
    The above will basically tell you why your site was put where it was put with the Search Engine... Give it a shot and see what they come up with.

    And you can always request reconsideration of your site.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by GuruCreation View Post

      I definitely don't see anything about how you built your backlinks and how many Google sees for them to penalize it...

      There are several upon several other ways for your website to have been penalized...

      I'm only showing you to have a total of 151 backlinks pointing to your site... And 0 are showing from Google.. Out of the 2000 profile links you ordered a couple of weeks ago, I see about 25 indexed in a few Search Engines, but none in Google.

      I suggest you do this, if you haven't already.

      Fetch as Googlebot

      In order to use Fetch as Googlebot, you'll need to have added and verified your site in Webmaster Tools
      1. On the Webmaster Tools Home page, click the site you want.
      2. On the Dashboard, under Labs, click Fetch as Googlebot.
      3. In the text box, type the path to the page you want to check.
      4. In the dropdown list, select the type of fetch you want. To see what their web crawler Googlebot sees, select Web.
      5. Click Fetch.
      The above will basically tell you why your site was put where it was put with the Search Engine... Give it a shot and see what they come up with.

      And you can always request reconsideration of your site.
      Thanks for taking a look at my site, i will look into your advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author etctan
    What I notice when you after you add some backlinks into your site, google will reduce your ranking. But after sometime your rank will slowly move up again if nothing is done.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Do you really think Google found those 2,000 backlinks in 7 days?
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBlackSEO
    Shannon, I never understand when people setup a brand new website then throw hundreds or even thousands of links at them. Patience is all it takes and by having a lack of it you will probably find yourself moving backwards.

    I have found some of my sites progress nicely with just a few decent links per day. Even every other day. You do not need thousands of links to rank. It's more a case of how you are building your links and how many links point to the pages where your links are on. And when I say 'how many links' I am meaning 'aged' links.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by AndyBlackSEO View Post

      I have found some of my sites progress nicely with just a few decent links per day. Even every other day. You do not need thousands of links to rank. It's more a case of how you are building your links and how many links point to the pages where your links are on. And when I say 'how many links' I am meaning 'aged' links.
      Good stuff as usual Andy. You can even get more than a few each day as long as you don't build them. I can hear the naysayers saying how does Google determine you built them. They don't they just consider the places where self backlinks can be had easily as low quality. Yaou have people doing thousands of backlinks and can't touch the top five yet.

      This is why I am quite happy (even though it nixed my own product here) about the new changes at WF. You couldn't talk about quality when everyone was talking about blasts and thousands and tens of thousands of crappy backlinks. ow you try and push your xrummer "SEO" tactics and your post may be gone Now more and more people are asking about good ways of building links. Quality over quantity is making a come back.
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        Now more and more people are asking about good ways of building links. Quality over quantity is making a come back.
        Not an attempt to discredit the WF ... but you cant just unring the bell.

        Now that the knowledge of those tools exists and they are easily located [ thanks google ] - I seriously doubt the WF new rule enforcement will have the slightest overall impact, or a quantum shift ... business as usual everywhere but here - and in some case - same as it ever was - just obfuscated with more marketer lingo in the ads.

        There's a bellyfull of TOS violating crap in WSO as I type this - seems the only dangerous TOS violations where those that used backlinks and backlinks automation to do so - all other rancid TOS violations are just fine.

        Guess we'll see.
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  • Profile picture of the author Davioli
    I've said this time and time again.. its not the speed or quantity if your baclinks that boxes your website... it is the LACK OF DIVERSITY.

    You've basically sent to your page a few thousand totally same type of links.

    The overcomplication of SEO by people continues to amaze me to this day...
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  • Profile picture of the author seoforu
    Yes..it's correct-Google penalizes all those sites whose backlinks increases too fast...so keep that in mind...after all Google is a genius.
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Originally Posted by seoforu View Post

      Yes..it's correct-Google penalizes all those sites whose backlinks increases too fast...so keep that in mind...after all Google is a genius.

      Yes sir - I met google for lunch the other day. "It" truly is brilliant! Cheap ass ******* tho - made me pick up the check.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
        Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

        Yes sir - I met google for lunch the other day. "It" truly is brilliant! Cheap ass ******* tho - made me pick up the check.
        Now, that was funny and i get it Google doersn't penalize or at least you don't think it does.
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

          Now, that was funny and i get it Google doersn't penalize or at least you don't think it does.
          I KNOW they do something, as I have experienced the same thing as you on multiple sites. Im not willing to call it a penalty. It may "feel" like a penalty.

          I dont deny the irrefutable fact your page is now severely lower in the rankings ... but Im NOT onboard with a hard n fast rule that the causation is ONLY a large influx of new low quality backlinks. Nor am I willing to say google has intentionally programmed in a PENALTY into their algo.

          We just dont know for sure.

          We for example dont know - if your original content - before the backlinks, actually deserved to be on page 100 - position 995 ... but was getting some sort of artificial new content boost. [ aka QDF ].

          What we do know is that BL's change your serps. By adding BL's you change the algo's computational output for where your site should be - as compared to where it was. For all we know it should have been result # 2,002 ...with no links - or the links you had, but the new backlinks put you at where you are now... a potentially better pace than where you might be without them.

          Since we've seen soooo many of these scenarios result in the pages returning ... this could be part of the process. Like a algo recalculation purgatory until its finished the computational evaluation of your site. Maybe your "in queue" to be repositioned in the serps to a better place. I dont believe "everything" google does is real time ON THE FLY.

          Maybe because its finding so many links .. on such a frequent basis - the algo is designed to hold off from bumping you around tooo much - that it puts you in the position you are now until the links it keeps uncovering / finding and cache'ing stabilize?

          There's many things it COULD BE ... but you nor I nor really any of the posters piling on with "yeah - you built too many links too fast!" know for sure.

          Think the whole "too many links to fast penalty" thing thru a bit further - and I think you might see its not all that logical.
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
            Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

            I KNOW they do something, as I have experienced the same thing as you on multiple sites. Im not willing to call it a penalty. It may "feel" like a penalty.

            I dont deny the irrefutable fact your page is now severely lower in the rankings ... but Im NOT onboard with a hard n fast rule that the causation is ONLY a large influx of new low quality backlinks. Nor am I willing to say google has intentionally programmed in a PENALTY into their algo.

            We just dont know for sure.

            We for example dont know - if your original content - before the backlinks, actually deserved to be on page 100 - position 995 ... but was getting some sort of artificial new content boost. [ aka QDF ].

            What we do know is that BL's change your serps. By adding BL's you change the algo's computational output for where your site should be - as compared to where it was. For all we know it should have been result # 2,002 ...with no links - or the links you had, but the new backlinks put you at where you are now... a potentially better pace than where you might be without them.

            Since we've seen soooo many of these scenarios result in the pages returning ... this could be part of the process. Like a algo recalculation purgatory until its finished the computational evaluation of your site. Maybe your "in queue" to be repositioned in the serps to a better place. I dont believe "everything" google does is real time ON THE FLY.

            Maybe because its finding so many links .. on such a frequent basis - the algo is designed to hold off from bumping you around tooo much - that it puts you in the position you are now until the links it keeps uncovering / finding and cache'ing stabilize?

            There's many things it COULD BE ... but you nor I nor really any of the posters piling on with "yeah - you built too many links too fast!" know for sure.

            Think the whole "too many links to fast penalty" thing thru a bit further - and I think you might see its not all that logical.
            Well thanks for your detailed response. You obviously know a lot about SEO and backlinks. Whatever the reason is i just wish it would come back to where it was or close to where it was.
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            • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
              Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

              Well thanks for your detailed response. You obviously know a lot about SEO and backlinks. Whatever the reason is i just wish it would come back to where it was or close to where it was.

              Not sure if you have a single page or a blog - but if the latter - you might continue to build content for it and keep a steady flow of incoming links.

              Good luck man - I hope it pops back to where it was and better for you soon.

              Mine went all the way off the index for 3 weeks. It now alternates between #2 and #4 - page 1.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                Don't worry man, you're site will come back. Listen to 4morereferrals and keep building backlinks.

                That's what matters right now. If you stop building backlinks because you think you've been penalized you'll be sacrificing consistency and link velocity. So keep building backlinks.

                And to me this just sounds like a google dance. Happens all the time with a huge influx of backlinks. Bunch of backlinks hit. Site disappears. Keep building backlinks...site returns at a higher position.

                Happens to almost all of my sites when building backlinks.
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          • Profile picture of the author Carlos Castro
            Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

            I KNOW they do something, as I have experienced the same thing as you on multiple sites. Im not willing to call it a penalty. It may "feel" like a penalty.

            I dont deny the irrefutable fact your page is now severely lower in the rankings ... but Im NOT onboard with a hard n fast rule that the causation is ONLY a large influx of new low quality backlinks. Nor am I willing to say google has intentionally programmed in a PENALTY into their algo.

            We just dont know for sure.

            We for example dont know - if your original content - before the backlinks, actually deserved to be on page 100 - position 995 ... but was getting some sort of artificial new content boost. [ aka QDF ].

            What we do know is that BL's change your serps. By adding BL's you change the algo's computational output for where your site should be - as compared to where it was. For all we know it should have been result # 2,002 ...with no links - or the links you had, but the new backlinks put you at where you are now... a potentially better pace than where you might be without them.

            Since we've seen soooo many of these scenarios result in the pages returning ... this could be part of the process. Like a algo recalculation purgatory until its finished the computational evaluation of your site. Maybe your "in queue" to be repositioned in the serps to a better place. I dont believe "everything" google does is real time ON THE FLY.

            Maybe because its finding so many links .. on such a frequent basis - the algo is designed to hold off from bumping you around tooo much - that it puts you in the position you are now until the links it keeps uncovering / finding and cache'ing stabilize?

            There's many things it COULD BE ... but you nor I nor really any of the posters piling on with "yeah - you built too many links too fast!" know for sure.

            Think the whole "too many links to fast penalty" thing thru a bit further - and I think you might see its not all that logical.
            What you describe is exactly what happens. When Google finds high quality links incoming it does a recalculation of where your site should be, thus the "Google Dance." Once it's done the site all of a sudden reappears either where it was or ranked higher. It has happened to me several times.

            Don't confuse this with the sandbox or some kind of penalty. The sandbox occurs during the early life of a site (you can get out of it with a blog).
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  • Profile picture of the author sallycev
    Do you think it would make a difference if you purchase an older domain name for "seasoning" reasons?

    Or would that have no affect?

    I'm asking because I'm about to buy a couple domains for some new projects.

    Hoping that you folks with more experience might know how much difference it might make?

    Thanks,
    Sally
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  • Profile picture of the author itcoll
    this happened to one of my sites recently.So what i did was build links to internal pages and the site attained good SERP position again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt-Marketing
    sorry to here that shannon.

    I hope google forget about you and
    put you back on the first page mate.

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author nettech
    Maybe it was a case of 'honeymoon period' over for your new domain, obviously the sheer number of linkz didnt help either!
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    Zaheer

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  • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Hey Shannon, I guess you are very confuse with all kinds of "noise" here... but I got to say this - building links too fast with 2,000 links in 7 days?

    7 days is nothing, I build 3K links in 3 days and guess what, my 8 days old new site rank for all my targeted keywords! I'm not just talking here, see this prove:

    7 Days New Site with Hundreds of Visitors

    You must know what you are doing, I highly recommend you get Daniel Tan Rank Mover, his WSO will reveal the secret of building backlinks, and the question is not about building links fast or slow, but... see Daniel Tan WSO.

    If you want to know more about why I can build 3K links in 3 days still rank high, PM me or ask your questions on my thread, I'll be glad to share!

    Kok Choon
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  • Profile picture of the author giseo
    go slow the first year then ramp it up. you built links way too fast for such a young domain.

    google and study link velocity as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulgl
      Go slow in the first year, only if you want to make zero money until
      year two and let your competition get a one year jump on you.

      Paul
      Signature

      If you were disappointed in your results today, lower your standards tomorrow.

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    • Profile picture of the author bsl1964
      I have had this happen to me by building links too fast. Usually after a period of time the site will climb up in the rankings again. The Google dance can be very frustrating to say the least!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    This thread is a good example of why making your buisness's bottom line dependent on Google is completely idiotic.

    I am glad I switched to list building and video marketing instead.

    Chris
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author misterkailo
    If you want reassurance, I had 50+ domains that were deep down in the search engine abyss for a few weeks before popping back up to first page and staying there. 2-3 months is still "brand new" so don't sweat it. Keep working on your content and linkbuilding.

    Think of this as a way to deter spammers. A typical spammer would quit once they see that their site no longer rank well on Google, and move on to the next project. Don't get me wrong... I felt like quitting as soon as I saw bunch of my sites ranking in 20 page+, but I continued to work hard and they eventually came back.
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  • Profile picture of the author Toby.T
    I am so slow at backlinking only roughly 5 original articles a day, sometimes less if I am busy. Hopeing in two months it pays off and Google do not penalise me at all along the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana Forsythe
    I bet I know where you got those 2,000 backlinks ;-) I ordered the same package on an established site that had tons of backlinks already and google kicked me for it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by Dana Forsythe View Post

      I bet I know where you got those 2,000 backlinks ;-) I ordered the same package on an established site that had tons of backlinks already and google kicked me for it.
      I just made a new BFF
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

        I just made a new BFF
        Shannon ... I feel so jilted ...
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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
          Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

          Shannon ... I feel so jilted ...
          lol wow this thread took on a life of its own somewhere and it's quite amazing!

          4moreferrals you know i have great respect for you and your SEO knowledge.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post


            4moreferrals you know i have great respect for you and your SEO knowledge.
            Shannon when it comes to SEO two sites are really good.

            Seomoz (probably my favorite) and Seobook. Don;t go off some random guy on WF - thats right that includes me. As you saw from the link I gave the idea that you can build backlinks too fast is not controversial in the professional seo world.
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Originally Posted by Dana Forsythe View Post

      I bet I know where you got those 2,000 backlinks ;-) I ordered the same package on an established site that had tons of backlinks already and google kicked me for it.
      What does that mean?
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  • Profile picture of the author threelegs61
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Yes, same thing happened to my younger brother. He got carried away building to many backlinks. His site was top ranked on Google for multiple keywords one minute and then dropped like a stone... BIG PROBLEM!! In my opinion probably caused by building large volumes of backlinks in a relatively short period of time. In addition, his site domain was less than 12 months old. I always build backlinks manually on a steady but consistent basis,around 50 -100 links per month and this works well for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author sqnwk
    Does any one know how google differentiates from link spam and a site that suddenly gets popular and is talked about? As both link building results would look similar (i.e sudden random spikes)
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
      Originally Posted by sqnwk View Post

      Does any one know how google differentiates from link spam and a site that suddenly gets popular and is talked about? As both link building results would look similar (i.e sudden random spikes)
      Now them is fighting words in this thread, you are going to get people on one side who say Google (Google is dumb that way) don't know the difference throw a million links at your site (it could happen)

      Then their is the other side who will say Google will sandbox your site especially a new site for building links too fast. Google needs to reevaluate your site to determine the best place to put you and make sure you are not a spam site.

      Now how do they know the difference? from link spam and a site that gets popular? I really don't know and unless anyone here works for Google and knows their algorithm they don't know 100%. But from what i read their have been case studies and my site is not the only one this has happened to.
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  • Profile picture of the author mrdeflation
    ROFL...

    If this was actually true I could OWN the first page for VERY hard keywords just by "spamming" my competitors and having google drop them off the top spots.
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  • Profile picture of the author joetheseo
    "Backlinking too fast"

    Well, let's rephrase that.

    Buying spam backlinks is bad.

    But you can't manually create too many backlinks.



    Although one time I dumped 3 articles into UAW at once, and Google didn't really like that site.. .hehe
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  • Profile picture of the author Marcel Pamphile
    Backlinks aren't everything.

    You need a healthy variety of references. do follow, no follow, text, video
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    • Profile picture of the author paulgl
      There is no do follow, and it's nofollow.
      And what the heck is a healthy dose of those?

      I'll skip a healthy dose of nofollow, thank you.

      I have no video either. That's the first I've heard
      about needing video.


      Paul
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      If you were disappointed in your results today, lower your standards tomorrow.

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  • Profile picture of the author Hen8neH
    Hi,

    In my experience, the real danger is getting too many backlinks too fast for new sites. I got sandboxed a couple times because of that, but it was never irreversible. After a few months of existence for your site, many backlinks doesn't seem to be a problem, but I never got more than say 50 new backlinks/day. There are degrees in how fast you build these, and in your case, it was way faster than I ever did, so I'll definitely keep your experience in mind to not overdo it.

    Damien
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
    Not trying to stir this up again or anything like that, but there were a few people on this thread that were interested on what became of my site.

    Well i am glad to say that it came back to the 1st page of Google in the 4th spot.

    I am out of the sandbox. (ducks)
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnnyw1
      Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

      Not trying to stir this up again or anything like that, but there were a few people on this thread that were interested on what became of my site.

      Well i am glad to say that it came back to the 1st page of Google in the 4th spot.

      I am out of the sandbox. (ducks)
      Did you do anything in particular to get your site back to page 1? any new link building methods, new content added to your site etc.?? Or was it more a case of playing the waiting game for it to come back?

      It would be very interesting to hear from you on this. Oh and thanks for starting this post it has been a great read hearing from everyone!
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Spoon
        Originally Posted by Johnnyw1 View Post

        Did you do anything in particular to get your site back to page 1? any new link building methods, new content added to your site etc.?? Or was it more a case of playing the waiting game for it to come back?

        It would be very interesting to hear from you on this. Oh and thanks for starting this post it has been a great read hearing from everyone!
        Hi Johnny,
        No i did not do anything at all to my site. Well that is not totally true. I do use three way links. This site adds about 8 links a day to my site up to 250 over a period of time. Other than that i didn't do anything.
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        • Profile picture of the author snobants
          Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

          Hi Johnny,
          No i did not do anything at all to my site. Well that is not totally true. I do use three way links. This site adds about 8 links a day to my site up to 250 over a period of time. Other than that i didn't do anything.
          Please, can anyone send or write one tutorial about how to make a safe 3 ways links (SAFE)

          tks
          stive
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          • Profile picture of the author paulgl
            Why is this crazy thread of building links fast now 4 pages long?
            Please, build your links slow. It will help the rest of us who are hard
            at work.

            Paul
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            If you were disappointed in your results today, lower your standards tomorrow.

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            • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
              Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

              Why is this crazy thread of building links fast now 4 pages long?
              Please, build your links slow. It will help the rest of us who are hard
              at work.

              Paul
              Lol, exactly.

              LISTEN UP PEOPLE!

              DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT build links too fast!

              5 links a week MAXIMUM!
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              • Profile picture of the author snobants
                Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

                Lol, exactly.

                LISTEN UP PEOPLE!

                DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT build links too fast!

                5 links a week MAXIMUM!
                5 links in one week ? :confused:
                only give a good position if have a Very hight PR.
                i do ~1600 links in 5 days to one website with 2 years old and dont dance.
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                • Profile picture of the author dburk
                  Originally Posted by snobants View Post

                  5 links in one week ? :confused:
                  only give a good position if have a Very hight PR.
                  i do ~1600 links in 5 days to one website with 2 years old and dont dance.
                  You are a perfect candidate for the new backlink removal service, We'll need to remove ~1595 of those links for you each week, that's too much removal work to do on your own!
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                  • Profile picture of the author snobants
                    Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                    You are a perfect candidate for the new backlink removal service, We'll need to remove ~1595 of those links for you each week, that's too much removal work to do on your own!
                    why??? in my awstats appear my 500 links after one weak
                    link:mywebsite dont show nothing of this, need more time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Trapped
      Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

      Not trying to stir this up again or anything like that, but there were a few people on this thread that were interested on what became of my site.

      Well i am glad to say that it came back to the 1st page of Google in the 4th spot.

      I am out of the sandbox. (ducks)
      It never was a sandbox, it was just in queue (as someone earlier mentioned) due to the new incoming links.

      A huge inbound of links not always puts a red flag, think about the big news posts...they could go viral and get hundreds of thousands of inbound links within just few days, and all from indexed pages, would it make sense for Google to penalize such sites?

      This bounce in SERPs from my experience happens in two occasions:
      1). Site is new and there is a constant link building process, so once you see it on page 40 then on page 2 and back on page 15, very normal.
      2). A heap of incoming links in short period of time. Algorithm trying to figure out a best ranking position, so it just randomly slams you on the deep pages, but then when you return you return with better SERP ranking.

      However, to not suffer such "jump" in SERPs (specially with established pages) it would be wise to build links slowly, however whenever you got a news worthy page...don't just hesitate, slam it hard and slam it with quality inbound links too.

      Just my 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author craig88
    There is a few things to consider first:

    If you build links up too quickly or in general, Google can knock your site down a few places/pages and then after a while you can go higher than you was originally, it is a filter that Google has.

    You can not damage a site with too many links as much as people think as competition would just spam their rivals.

    Building too many links too quickly with the same anchor text is the main reason for drop in rankings.
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  • With this 'blackbox' Google you can never be sure what causes the drop. But, in general, these too many links at once might cause with very high probability the drop indeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author WareTime
    Good backlinks in quantity never hurt you. Purchased or automated ones can. Why?

    When you buy a package of backlinks and a few hundred new ones show up on your site daily. No problem. When Google sees that same few hundred appearing on new sites daily they know what is going on. Now if the seller offers you links and never uses those same links to other sites, your less likely to get caught.

    Google is not perfect, but they aren't stupid either.
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  • Profile picture of the author hitmark
    Links should be natural.
    So, I would counter with - depends on how you're building links.

    I mean, think about it. "Building links" itself is paradoxical in terms of organic SEO.... Why not think of it as Building an extremely link-able site and networking it appropriately?
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  • Profile picture of the author seoforu
    That is true indeed...Google punishes you for building backlinks too fast.So one must remember to build backlinks slowly but regularly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
      Originally Posted by seoforu View Post

      That is true indeed...Google punishes you for building backlinks too fast.So one must remember to build backlinks slowly but regularly.
      When will the insanity in this place end This myth just needs to die, or else stay at DP

      You guys can keep regulating the flow of incoming backlinks and i'll keep blasting and shooting up the SERPs.
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    • Profile picture of the author SledgeHammer
      Originally Posted by seoforu View Post

      That is true indeed...Google punishes you for building backlinks too fast.So one must remember to build backlinks slowly but regularly.
      It's a myth !

      Google will not penalize you in anyway !
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  • Profile picture of the author Aira Bongco
    Thanks for the heads up Shannon,

    I guess a common error for us is that we tend to look for shortcuts. We think that if we do a particular thing like build backlinks too fast, we can reach our goals faster. But it's sad that it needs to happen to you. But thanks for informing us warriors of what happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author mcampbell075
    I've seen before in a forums that building too many links on a old website is fine. Is that true?
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  • Profile picture of the author Working Vagabond
    I have never experience the so called "sandbox" myself but I hear many people talk about it, usually with sites that are pretty new. I have to say that Fernando Veloso makes an excellent point above about competition sabotage. If Google really did penalize sites for building backlinks too fast, or for getting backlinks from suspicious sites, then IM's would spend a great deal of time locked in a competitive arms race trying to sabotage each others sites by building lots of suspicious links.

    Maybe this does go on and I am just too naive to have realized.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaarrrggghhh
    I personally do not get this theory at all.

    Websites take a while to 'settle' in the search engines and that takes time but it has nothing to do with backlinks. Just think how many competitors you could take out!

    Although if it did, everything that went viral on the net would make you loose Google rankings?

    Just think of the millions of backlinks that could be created if just one of your articles went viral - even on a new site.

    This theory just does not make sense at all. There are other more important factors that determine where you website will settle in the search engines and realistically, it seems to be between three to six months of age, minimum.

    New sites tend to jump all over the place until they settle. My new sites rank all over the place...page 1, position 1, back to position 200, then back to page 1, etc. That is all NORMAL.

    As long as your site is being found when you do:
    site:http://YOURDOMAIN.com

    If it comes up, then it is still there, it is just still dancing around and there is nothing unusual about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author autoboy
    The reason you've been penalized is because you RANDOMLY started getting backlinks per day. You set off their spam filter. If you start from day one building same backlinks per day, and MAINTAIN it, you'll be fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author steveniam
    Nobody really know whether building too many backlinks in a short period of time may end up being sandbox by Google. Maybe it could be other reasons.

    Let me share my experiences. My blog was on the first page of Google (3 to 9) for a quite a while. For reasons unknown to me my site suddenly disappear out of sight for the last six months. Suddenly it appear again 3 weeks ago on the first page and ranked second if the 3 sponsored links are not included in the counting.

    Just a while ago I checked again and it is now ranked FIRST on google (without counting the 3 sponsored links). I am in a competitive niche with a search volume of 50,000 for the month of June. In this niche there are quite a number of authority sites (wiki etc) with domains ages ranging from 4 to 5 years to more than 10 years. My domain is only about 2 years.

    I have done nothing. No backlinking, no submission to directories etc. Just post new articles daily for the last six months and I have archive of at least 5000 articles in my blog.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Lol, when will people know that Google is not a person and their spiders cannot think?
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    • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Lol, when will people know that Google is not a person and their spiders cannot think?
      What? The spiders can think, just that it is programatic.

      Google puts a lot of work towards adding spam detection to their algorithm (as well as Bing). Caffeine has allowed them the resources to do this more intensely.

      A page being sent to the last page of results indicates that the site has been filtered or penalised - it won't be the sites true ranking. This is different to the "sandbox effect" where a page disappears totally from the search query. Often your result (in the last pages of results) is surrounded by other pages that should be on the front page too, or at least in the top 100 results.

      What caused it? Who knows! Remove the links and see if your page comes back. That is all that will tell you if it was caused by the new poor quality links.
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      • Profile picture of the author dburk
        Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

        What caused it? Who knows! Remove the links and see if your page comes back. That is all that will tell you if it was caused by the new poor quality links.
        Yeah! That's the ticket! Remove the links!

        I'm inspired! Next week I will launch my new course on how to remove your backlinks.
        • Learn the optimim removal velocity formula
        • Discover the best backlink removal tools and how to use them
        • Learn the secrets of my slow drip drop method
        • Discounted pricing on my new "All Manual" link removing service performed by trained specialist that reside in the top Nigerian Womens Prison System.

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        • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
          Originally Posted by dburk View Post

          Yeah! That's the ticket! Remove the links!

          I'm inspired! Next week I will launch my new course on how to remove your backlinks.
          That's some good spin right there. I was talking about the 2000 spammed links he added right before the site got penalised.

          If the links are poor quality, from a poor quality neighborhood, then they might be what is triggering the penalty. If he added 2000 links over night I highly doubt they are from quality sites. Removing the links will prove if it is what triggered the filter/penalty or not.

          Google spends a lot of time looking for spammy sites. Surely 2000 poor links to an already poor site indicates that the site is spam? Do you think Google doesn't have the know-how to program that into their algorithm, or do you think that such a site isn't spam?

          You cannot compare a piece of link bait or a news article going viral to someone botting 2000 profiles or comments.

          • The viral news article/link bait will usually come from an already established site with a good history and link profile. Google already trusts the site.
          • The people creating profile links or spamming comments are doing so to new sites without any quality links and no Google trust.
          • The sites linking to the viral article will usually be genuine sites that are also established - often on the front page.
          • The links won't be hidden deep into a site like a forum profile that has only 1 or 2 inner links from its own site.
          • The viral article will usually get links from relevant sites or at least relevant parts of a site. Quality sites use some form of categorisation to keep them user friendly.
          • A forum profile usually contains no other relevant keywords on the page.
          • A viral article won't be surrounded by links to other poor quality sites.
          • A blog comment on a dofollow blog is usually surrounded by heaps of links to everything from ugg boots to viagra.
          There is nothing wrong with getting a lot of links in a short period, it is the quality of links that will affect your site.
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          • Profile picture of the author dburk
            Hi Fraggler,

            While you did a great job of presenting your argument, I don't by the premise. His website was not penalized, therefore the whole argument is based on a fallacy.

            From my experience, When Google finds spam links, they devalue them. They never penalize the website they point towards, at least not that I've ever seen. If Google ever did such a thing you would see businesses spring up overnight to help you rank based on getter your competitors penalized.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

        What? The spiders can think, just that it is programatic.

        Google puts a lot of work towards adding spam detection to their algorithm (as well as Bing). Caffeine has allowed them the resources to do this more intensely.

        A page being sent to the last page of results indicates that the site has been filtered or penalised - it won't be the sites true ranking. This is different to the "sandbox effect" where a page disappears totally from the search query. Often your result (in the last pages of results) is surrounded by other pages that should be on the front page too, or at least in the top 100 results.

        What caused it? Who knows! Remove the links and see if your page comes back. That is all that will tell you if it was caused by the new poor quality links.
        I stopped reading after you said spiders can think.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialbookmark
    Fast link building for new domains surely will be punished by Google. But if you own old domains don't worry about fast link building for it as its well known for Google and other search engines.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by socialbookmark View Post

      Fast link building for new domains surely will be punished by Google. But if you own old domains don't worry about fast link building for it as its well known for Google and other search engines.
      This is nothing but a lie.
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      • Profile picture of the author Carlos Castro
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        This is nothing but a lie.
        I concur. A site may dance when you build links quickly, but I have never experienced any type of penalty. EVER!
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    • Profile picture of the author Aaarrrggghhh
      Originally Posted by socialbookmark View Post

      Fast link building for new domains surely will be punished by Google. But if you own old domains don't worry about fast link building for it as its well known for Google and other search engines.
      Huh? Another theory? Would love to see what evidence you have on this as I have NONE that would be remotely even close to what you are saying.

      I have been doing SEO for over 10 years and I couldn't make that kind of statement, or, at least I would not.

      Look, the 'software' doesn't see any links you submit immediately. They have to 'discover' your links. Now, I'm sure the software may have some way of determining spam type stuff, but I don't think it has to do with the number of backlinking at any one time. There are lots of backlinking that goes on, especially with blogs and trackbacks in which you have no control of. Again, there are also lots of things that go viral instantly and can receive millions of backlinks...relevant backlinks or not, you would have absolutely no control over them.

      If you are just out promoting your site, and you are using software that helps you get that job done more timely and efficiently, Google's software is not going to penalize you. They have others way of doing that. Google and every major search engine is all about using software on a super duper large scale to gather and information quickly and link to it...you are worried about a few hundred or thousand of links going to your site?

      If that is what you are worried about, then don't do it. But I just don't understand that theory at all. Too many changes take place with the search engines to know exactly what happens all the time, heck, they don't even know why most of the time either!

      Produce quality content, do your seo optimization both on-site and off-site, submit to directories, submit to social sites, submit your rss feeds, submit to blog directories, submit to video directories, etc. and you will outlast anyone...although you will always dance in the search engines as sites come and go.
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  • Profile picture of the author Julien Duc
    Interesting... thanks for sharing your experience with us, even though I'm sure there are many other variables to take into consideration. Make sure you check you check your rankings again in a few days.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    Okay. Here is where I disagree with you.

    If building backlinks too fast meant you get labeled as spam, then doesn't that mean all I have to do to get my site ranked above yours and anyone else's in my way is to build fast, crumby backlinks to their site?

    Think about it. You don't have ANY control over your backlinks. One way links can be generated by anybody. This whole idea that too fast or too many backlinks is garbage because it would mean that I could go around and ruin someone else's site without actually owning it or being affiliate with it.

    Google doesn't want people to be able to ruin another person's rankings. For this reason, it isn't effective.

    However, building backlinks very quickly will get your site ranked lower or de indexed temporarily. This is known as the Google dance. It can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks or even months.

    Google does this to make sure no one knows exactly how the backlinking affects their SEO and can't game the system. They take you out of the rankings so you are blind to whatever happens while they are reevaluating your position.

    I doubt you will be hurt permanently by this.
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  • Profile picture of the author DNChamp
    this is a great post because im in the same boat as the OP.....exept with mine the domain itself is not listed. I to went crazy with backlinks. In Google webmasters it shows 2,161 links to the MAIN DOMAIN...i was stupid not to set those links pointing to other links but I know now.

    My diffrence is with the OP he had it indexed and then fell way back...MY domain does not show up AT ALL except for other links (bookmarks, web 2.0 etc) showing up for my site. When I do site:DomainHere.com it comes back with no results.

    I sent an emial to google to reconsider my site but becasue it does not show up at all via the site: search is it reasonable to have it come back at all?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ronald Nzimora
    this is a big lesson for those, like me that are crazing about link building.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joel Gray
    I am not sure about the 2000 links in seven days thing but I know for sure you can build 1000 backinks every 2 or 3 weeks and it will HELP your website move up to the first page of Google, I have done it with several sites/blogs for some 18 to 20 keywords/keyword phrases. One of the keyword phrases returns 455 million competitors and I got one of my blogs to position #4 four times in the last 3 months but it has settled at #7 for the time being. And I continue to add content on a regular basis and build backlinks monthly to keep them on the first page, due to if I stop adding content and building backlinks that site will fall to page #2 or sometimes #3 within 60 to 90 days. So in a nutshell all SEO really comes down to is, backlinks, content and activity. So build your backlinks as fast as possible, update your site/blog with fresh content and do it on a regular basis and that is pretty much about it.


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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    It really doesn't adress the competitor issue.

    If these tactics worked, competitors could spam you into oblivion. That does not work.

    There probably is something like the Sandbox, though I've never encountered it.

    I've seen temporary drops in rankings a lot from building links fast.

    It works like this:

    A site receives a lot of new links.

    Google wants to bring the most relevant (contextually) from a trusted source (high quality backlinks) and the FRESHEST results. A lot of new links is interpreted as the content being fresh. Like how news spread virally on the internet.

    That's why your site may surge quickly in the rankings. For very competetive niches, this may last only a few minutes. Similar to posting an Ezinearticle that hits first page for about 10 seconds and then never to be seen again. For less competetive keywords, your FRESH content may stay there for days or weeks, but eventually it will fade unless it's now established as THE piece of content for the keyword.

    That probably accounts for most of these 'omg my site dropped after building links'.

    Then again, I have seen some big fluctuations in rankings after building links fast. Eventually the links will count though.

    There is no getting around the fact that domain and content age is still a significant factor for Google. It's simply to weed out spam, which will likely not last a year.
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  • Profile picture of the author Domenic Carlson
    I really wonder if it was the amount of links or the quality. I mean you did buy them - therefore they probably came from linkfarms.
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    • Profile picture of the author gregorysr
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
        People are still throwing in theories and pushing shameless plug in this discussion. And Shannon is gone

        Hey Shannon... (if you're somewhere else)

        Do this -- Create highly SE-optimized pages.

        You'll see the movement.



        Hardi
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        • Profile picture of the author uniqueape
          This is one crazy thread on link building!

          I build links all the time for clients who have websites that are 1 to 6 months old i build about 1000 to 1500 links per month.

          On a fairly new website yes your rankings will go up and down, and you will
          disappear off and on for a short time but if you are consistent and keep building links, the Google dance will soon stop and you will get your index ranking to stabilize. Normally within 6 weeks at most the dance stops and the site ranking gets pretty stable. The key is being consistent and keep building links.

          But the idea that building a lot of links is bad just is not true as long as you are building links on authority sites and not link farms.

          In my opinion why this happens is most of my clients have sites 1 to 6 months old that have just set there with very little or no link building done on them since they purchased them. They decide to get seo work done and buy links.
          Yes Google is going to see this as strange you go from nothing to several hundred links a week and your site will disappear for a short time but it will come back.

          I just do not buy that you can only build 5 links a week or something that is just not true in my experiences with building links.

          Many in this thread suggest if building a lot of links is bad you can build links on there sites i agree with that completely.

          I will take your 1000 links and raise you 1000 on any of my sites new or old.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dellco
    If you think 2000 links is excessive, wait till you see a site that someone posted on my blog in the comments.

    That site is only one month old, and has 46,000 links....

    AND, it is a one page site. An EMD cum MFA.

    Is this guy crazy or what? Sometimes, I think there's many people out there who really are either crazy or stupid, I don't know which is the case........

    Google definitely penalized the site, and I think this is one guy who needs a link removal service....if there's such a thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Just a Minion
      It's not the number of links. Maybe the quality of links.

      2000 links? Were these worthless profile links?

      To illustrate the point - if your website suddenly received thousands of quality links because you had secret US military documents from Afghanistan - do you think you would be on the first page of Google, or the last page?
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  • Profile picture of the author Hardi Wijaya
    The theory about penalty for building link too fast is not totally proven. Reason is that some people apparently seen it happen, but could not give precise explanation. On the other hand, some people don't see this, they deny it.

    Matt Cutts did mentioned that Google never penalizes sites that build links too fast, because it may not be done by owners. It could be the competitors.

    What I suspect is that there's a mechanism to put a new site 'on hold' if incoming links are being generated too fast. This isn't a penalty, in my opinion. It's just a measure to prevent new sites to ruin the listing.


    Hardi
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  • Profile picture of the author D Baker
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    I am sorry to burst your bubble, but what you are saying simple doesn't make sense. Just take a minute and think about it.

    If I am an affiliate marketer and by building many backlinks in a short period of time will get my site punished by Google, than I would simply create a lot of backlinks to all of the competition and get them punished and clear the way for top google rankings.

    This doesn't make sense and I doubt very much that Google is doing that.

    I think that due to the fact your site is only 3 month old is the main cause for the sudden drop and the Google Dance can take effect even after 6 months.

    I may be wrong, but the way I see it, There is no way Google punished websites for building links to fast because that will give anyone the power to kick any site he wants from Google by simply creating many backlinks to that site.
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  • Profile picture of the author BobV
    I believe that there is nothing wrong with wanting to have your website be on the first pages of the search results. However I would disagree in saying that building backlinks too fast is wrong, and is thus punished by Google.

    Falling from number seven to the last page is all part of the game. It's just like riding a bike. There is nothing wrong with wanting to go fast, but if you go to fast, sometimes you lose control, or slip and fall. However just like learning to ride a bike, building backlinks is a trial and error process.

    Eventually, through experience and some trial error (not too much though, or you will run the risk of being blacklisted) you will figure out the right amount of backlinks that will steadily move your site up the search results ladder, but not too fast as to alert Google's SPAM "sensor".

    I hope this helps.
    Bob
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    What a lot of hooey in this thread. Paranoia. Assigning a factual conclusion with absolutely no real proof to support it.

    The fact is, you can get thousands of links in incredibly short order and not raise even the tiniest flag at Google. But please, you who are worried about getting a mythical penalty from Google for getting too many backlinks too fast please -- I BEG YOU -- build backlinks to your sites very, very, very, very slowly. No more than 3-4 links a week or so. That's exactly what I think you should do. That will keep you COMPLETELY off Google's radar (and completely out of the competition).

    Oh, and whatever you do... WHATEVER YOU DO... DON'T submit your pages to Digg. Sometimes sites submitted to Digg get thousands of backlinks in a SINGLE DAY. That would absolutely ENSURE that your site will be penalized by Google, sent to the bottom of the search results, just like every other URL that hits this page:

    Digg - The Latest News Headlines, Videos and Images

    Oh, and never, ever submit press releases for your site. Those will KILL your ranking. Sometimes press releases get hundreds or even thousands of backlinks from news sources and other sites in just a matter of a couple of days.

    OH! And don't submit your pages to any social media sites. Man, if your page gets popular there you could end up getting hundreds of backlinks in just hours. Google will SURELY penalize your site when that happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author joetheseo
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Ya well that's different then building backlinks fast naturally.

    I've built 50 backlinks per day on a new site without seeing any problems.

    But 2,000 links in one day? You got problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marketing Ignite
    Totally correct and I cant believe companies are still selling this crap about thousands of links...Its the quality and the trust of the link that counts in the end. If you are just starting out with SEO, I would strongly recommend to get up to date and learn everything you can yourself even if you outsource as there are lots of SEO companies that still does this (no names mentioned). The basic rule applies: Google does not care about your site but only about the quality of the search results. Why would they want websites that participates in spam to show up in the top?
    They would lose so many users and Google is much smarter than that so SEO has to be taken to deeper levels...
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
      Originally Posted by Marketing Ignite View Post

      The basic rule applies: Google does not care about your site but only about the quality of the search results.

      Think whatever you want about how you think Google should provide search results...but the fact still remains that link spamming still works wonders.

      Google just doesn't reward "quality" on-page content like some of you think they do/should, and building a great site with the hope that the links will just naturally flow in just doesn't work, unless perhaps you have the advertising budget of Hewlett Packard.

      Originally Posted by Marketing Ignite View Post

      Why would they want websites that participates in spam to show up in the top?
      Yet...our sites still do They seem more interested in building such useless features as Google Instant. For some reason, people think Google operates on about the level of Skynet (from Terminator), but it does not.

      Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author mysticmadness
    there are many factors asnd one of those is age of site. if in small time you get too popular than either you a rockstar or spammer.

    i do believe in link velocity..........
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by mysticmadness View Post

      there are many factors asnd one of those is age of site. if in small time you get too popular than either you a rockstar or spammer.

      i do believe in link velocity..........
      Link velocity is a good thing. It's the link decay once the linking campaign is over is that's likely the problem...
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  • Profile picture of the author sbp8610
    Let me tell a story.

    There once was a newbie (me!) who used to read through the warrior forum day and night and believed whatever he read. Whenever his site dropped down in the serps he worried that it would never come back but it ALWAYS did, even stronger than before.

    He eventually realized that there's no such thing as building links too fast and began to build massive amounts of links to his site. He got better serps position, began to make sales, and then used the money to buy Xrumer... the mother of all link building tools. From then on out it was money in the bank... the end
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  • Profile picture of the author mysticmadness
    in one of google conference they told that they determine the whole pattern to see if links are genuine, bought ot exhanged. somehow i believe them.
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    • Profile picture of the author kposs
      Originally Posted by mysticmadness View Post

      in one of google conference they told that they determine the whole pattern to see if links are genuine, bought ot exhanged. somehow i believe them.
      I believe them too (well usually, I'm sure they've got some misinformation campaigns, but I digress), but that does not necessarily have anything to do with how quickly you build links. For example, Google can track history of each link, the location of the link, the IP diversity of your link profile, and many other factors.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
      Originally Posted by mysticmadness View Post

      in one of google conference they told that they determine the whole pattern to see if links are genuine, bought ot exhanged. somehow i believe them.
      ...and we know that whatever Google says is 100% true and that they never have an hidden motives.:rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

        ...and we know that whatever Google says is 100% true and that they never have an hidden motives.:rolleyes:

        They will lie through their teeth so it comes down to what the serps show. I don't know about you Tom but I am seeing less and less sites at the top on forum and profile backlinks ALONE. I think you know this because you are mixing it up yourself. I think alot of the people who complain about seeing an affect go heavy/exclusive on one kind of backlink. Now those who say they are worthless all together well we know different on that. way different
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          They will lie through their teeth so it comes down to what the serps show. I don't know about you Tom but I am seeing less and less sites at the top on forum and profile backlinks ALONE. I think you know this because you are mixing it up yourself.
          altough...at least for me, the main reason I mix up my links is as a safety net feature. I certainly could rank on 100% profile links, but that is just stupid and short-sighted, IMHO. You never know what google will value in 3 months, or 3 years from now. I don't build links just to rank today, I build links that will give me the best chance to rank long-term. Not to mention, there are some pretty kick ass automation of non-forum links these days so it makes my life a whole lot easier. Despite perhaps some perception of me, i've never been a one backlink trick pony.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

            altough...at least for me, the main reason I mix up my links is as a safety net feature.
            I like them right now in fact. various reasons. Harder to reverse engineer. actual chance of naturally increasing PR. often enough Higher on page PR and domain link to anchor text link conversion through a secondary site.


            You never know what google will value in 3 months, or 3 years from now.
            What??? You as chicken little? SO the only thing we really disagree on is when those links might become devalued? I mean besides blasting. I don't know tom we might grab a beer one day and laugh about the good old days when we disagreed . Me and you nearly on the same page? Who woulda thunk?


            Not to mention, there are some pretty kick ass automation of non-forum links these days so it makes my life a whole lot easier.
            Just stop it now. We are even agreeing on some automation software too. I need a drink right now. Worlds are colliding. Seinfeld bizarro world. its too much

            But you know it actually feels better. Hmm. Too strange though. I might have to drop in on your forums and post a Google video and say backlinking is dead or something just to feel more normal being flamed again. LOL.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              What??? You as chicken little? SO the only thing we really disagree on is when those links might become devalued?
              Well, I still don't think there will be a mass devaluation, at least during the next couple of years. Of course, i know others disagree with me What I am more worried about the fact is that I have some keywords that rank extremely well in pretty competitive niches. ...and to be honest, competitors, often act like little b&tches:rolleyes:

              If my sites/pages didn't rank well, it wouldn't matter. But, if joe blow somehow gets Google's attention because my site is kicking their arse in google, and google desides to take a manual look at my backlinks and potentially manually devalue some of them, I want as wide a diversity as possible to help prevent a negative outcome from that.

              Tom
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

                If my sites/pages didn't rank well, it wouldn't matter. But, if joe blow somehow gets Google's attention because my site is kicking their arse in google,
                Tom
                One day, hopefully not too far away, when I don't have to work i hope to locate a really competitive term (that I can actually bare to look at ) that has two xrumer high priests with strong wills. I can do up a big bucket of popcorn and watch the backlinks fly between the two of them in the millions of backlinks as they try and unseat the other from the top spot back and forth.

                Thats the thing I always see with relying on just forum links. Too easy to ignite an arms race. I don't think diversification is just a safety net for you- not buying that at all. Thats why I let you guys go with the keyword "backlinks". That and its target number one for reverse engineering. By the way whatever happened to Angela's ezine article that used to rank? or do i have the wrong keyword?
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  One day, hopefully not too far away, when I don't have to work i hope to locate a really competitive term (that I can actually bare to look at ) that has two xrumer high priests with strong wills. I can do up a big bucket of popcorn and watch the backlinks fly between the two of them in the millions of backlinks as they try and unseat the other from the top spot back and forth.

                  Thats the thing I always see with relying on just forum links. Too easy to ignite an arms race. I don't think diversification is just a safety net for you- not buying that at all. Thats why I let you guys go with the keyword "backlinks". That and its target number one for reverse engineering. By the way whatever happened to Angela's ezine article that used to rank? or do i have the wrong keyword?
                  I believe you mean Angela's GoArticle (which, BTW, pretty much sucks lately, IMHO). It was quite odd, but for you'll see Terry has his GoArticle at spot 2/3. For about a month his article was flipping with Angela. One would be top 5, the other back at 50 or something. this flipping would occur hourly almost it seemed. Then, about a month ago Terry unseated her and Angela's stayed back at 50 or something at Terry stayed up at 2/3.

                  Not even sure what is up with Angela herself though. You would think that with the change here at WF she would be actively seeking out backlinking communities, but that has not been the case it seems.

                  Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author D Baker
      Originally Posted by mysticmadness View Post

      in one of google conference they told that they determine the whole pattern to see if links are genuine, bought ot exhanged. somehow i believe them.
      Do you really think Google will tell you anything different than that ???
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      • Profile picture of the author JackScanlan
        In my experience, building links too fast won't hurt you as long as they are quality links. Make sure they relate to the keywords that you are promoting. That will give more value to the links that you build.

        But either way, a link is a link. Basically what happens when you build link, at any speed, is that you drop out of the SERPS briefly as the search engines try to decide where you should be placed. It's called the "Dance".

        It happens to almost every site, especially if it is new. You may not see it as much with a more established site. But your site will come back. It may be a few days, or a few weeks. Just continue to build quality links, and your site will slowly move up the rankings.

        In my experience, often times people confuse not ranking immedietely for competitive keywords, as a punishment. Really it just takes time. Stick with it and you will see results.

        Jack
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  • Profile picture of the author sparckyz
    Good thread. I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes rather than make my own

    No 2k backlinks from linkfarm directories

    thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author NickP
    Ok, everyone on here should buy a back-link package to facebook and you tube. Let's try to get them de-indexed.
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  • Profile picture of the author jhonsean
    To professionals like other SEO's building backlinks for them is easy so then it is fast done with the experts but in the other hand like newbie in SEO world there is so many things that will be gained and experiences to take.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    The thing with automation is that we all use SE footprints to find them. If we can do this, so can Google. I doubt it would be all that hard for Google to cross-check of a link comes from a site with one of these footprints, or if a lot of your links share these footprints.

    And the day may be coming close where bloggers, forum and site owners get tired of the auto-posters and redirect their anger at the real cause, which is Google. If Google did away with "linking" as a ranking factor, comment and profile spam would end tomorrow.

    On the other hand, it could be years before Google does anything. I've made predictions about Google before that were correct, but was surprised at how long it took them to make the changes.

    I think the solution is the same as it's always been...Diversify and use higher-risk tactics on lower value assets and use lower risk strategies if/as the property value increases.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      The thing with automation is that we all use SE footprints to find them. If we can do this, so can Google. I doubt it would be all that hard for Google to cross-check of a link comes from a site with one of these footprints, or if a lot of your links share these footprints.

      And the day may be coming close where bloggers, forum and site owners get tired of the auto-posters and redirect their anger at the real cause, which is Google. If Google did away with "linking" as a ranking factor, comment and profile spam would end tomorrow.

      On the other hand, it could be years before Google does anything. I've made predictions about Google before that were correct, but was surprised at how long it took them to make the changes.

      I think the solution is the same as it's always been...Diversify and use higher-risk tactics on lower value assets and use lower risk strategies if/as the property value increases.
      Even if Google can use those footprints to see that the majority of your links were coming from them, the worst thing that will happen is a devaluation.

      That's why varying your link sources as much as possible is smart and will probably protect you from such a devaluation.

      I really don't think there is any way to get rid of linking as a ranking factor. Any alternative short of reviewing every single site on the web will be just as easy to manipulate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

        Even if Google can use those footprints to see that the majority of your links were coming from them, the worst thing that will happen is a devaluation.

        That's why varying your link sources as much as possible is smart and will probably protect you from such a devaluation.

        I really don't think there is any way to get rid of linking as a ranking factor. Any alternative short of reviewing every single site on the web will be just as easy to manipulate.
        The worst thing(s) that can happen is getting your site/ip banned and your adsense account dropped and the amount of time and money spent on automation wasted.

        Getting rid of the value placed on auto links shouldn't be confused with getting rid of all linking for SEO purposes. As a matter of fact, getting rid of the auto links will HELP the value of real links.

        Google can easily create a tag such as <nolinkjuice> </nolinkjuice> and every link between these two tags won't pass any link juice. This tag could easily be placed in WP templates, for example, so no links in the comments have any link juice.


        I've addressed the human review factor many times over the years.

        1. They don't have to review every site. Only the top sites for their money keywords. Do the math. I've done it many times, it's very possible for Google to pay people to check the top SERPs, to the point of, I assume they do it.

        2. They can use the google toolbar to track all sorts of stuff. If you want to fake stuff, you'll need to download the toolbar for each "deception", since each has an indivicual ID number which proxies, etc won't get around. And, microsoft owns Bing. There's all sorts of data they can collect to aid in ranking pages.

        Can you explain exactly how this deception works? I mean if you click too many times on a link in the SERPs, how do you know those clicks fall within Google's math expectations?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          The worst thing(s) that can happen is getting your site/ip banned and your adsense account dropped and the amount of time and money spent on automation wasted.

          Getting rid of the value placed on auto links shouldn't be confused with getting rid of all linking for SEO purposes. As a matter of fact, getting rid of the auto links will HELP the value of real links.

          Google can easily create a tag such as <nolinkjuice> </nolinkjuice> and every link between these two tags won't pass any link juice. This tag could easily be placed in WP templates, for example, so no links in the comments have any link juice.


          I've addressed the human review factor many times over the years.

          1. They don't have to review every site. Only the top sites for their money keywords. Do the math. I've done it many times, it's very possible for Google to pay people to check the top SERPs, to the point of, I assume they do it.

          2. They can use the google toolbar to track all sorts of stuff. If you want to fake stuff, you'll need to download the toolbar for each "deception", since each has an indivicual ID number which proxies, etc won't get around. And, microsoft owns Bing. There's all sorts of data they can collect to aid in ranking pages.

          Can you explain exactly how this deception works? I mean if you click too many times on a link in the SERPs, how do you know those clicks fall within Google's math expectations?
          I highly doubt Google is going to go around banning people for incoming links that anyone including your competitors could have placed.

          And there would be plenty of mistakes if human reviewers were put in place. That would be worse than any algorithm because humans make false judgements, mistakes, and are biased no matter how you want to look at it. There would be no way to depend on human reviewers to make unbiased, non-judgemental decisions. It would leave way too much room for error on the table.

          And about faking it. I'm not a programmer so I can't give you a way to game that. But I'm sure there are people who would find a way. SEO's and black-hatters, whatever you want to call people who build links ALWAYS find a way. It's not going to end no matter what ranking factors come into play.

          It's been that way since the beginning and it's going to continue to be that way. As long as there is money to be made from search, people are going to find a way to game that. And this is something I'm very confident in.

          On a side note, about 9 months ago I remember reading a thread declaring that Google was going to go after blog comment spam. And from what I read blog comment spam was supposed to be dealt with years ago. (I wouldn't know, I haven't been online that long). And to this day, it still works.

          Google is spending more of its resources developing amazing(laugh) products like Instant and less of its revenue on web spam.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

            I highly doubt Google is going to go around banning people for incoming links that anyone including your competitors could have placed.

            And there would be plenty of mistakes if human reviewers were put in place. That would be worse than any algorithm because humans make false judgements, mistakes, and are biased no matter how you want to look at it. There would be no way to depend on human reviewers to make unbiased, non-judgemental decisions. It would leave way too much room for error on the table.

            And about faking it. I'm not a programmer so I can't give you a way to game that. But I'm sure there are people who would find a way. SEO's and black-hatters, whatever you want to call people who build links ALWAYS find a way. It's not going to end no matter what ranking factors come into play.

            It's been that way since the beginning and it's going to continue to be that way. As long as there is money to be made from search, people are going to find a way to game that. And this is something I'm very confident in.

            On a side note, about 9 months ago I remember reading a thread declaring that Google was going to go after blog comment spam. And from what I read blog comment spam was supposed to be dealt with years ago. (I wouldn't know, I haven't been online that long). And to this day, it still works.

            Google is spending more of its resources developing amazing(laugh) products like Instant and less of its revenue on web spam.
            I'm tired of playing this game of "moving target".

            You said the worst thing that can happen was Google drop your site. I corrected you about worse things that could happen. My comment was stating facts, not an opinion as to whether Google will or want do what they will do. We do know they ban Adsense accounts for little or no reason, so your opinion is potentiall harmful to those that would believe you that there is little risk.

            And I also diagree with you stating opinions as facts, such as Google spending more in Instant than spam. My own opinion based on my research and experience is that Google spends about 90% of the algo resources on SE spam detection and spam removal rather than direct ranking factors...A lot of SEO if just getting past Google's spam filters for both content and links.


            Here's something we agree on, and I posted above. And this is the key...I have no doubt Google will act, but the question is when. This month? Three years?

            On a side note, about 9 months ago I remember reading a thread declaring that Google was going to go after blog comment spam. And from what I read blog comment spam was supposed to be dealt with years ago. (I wouldn't know, I haven't been online that long). And to this day, it still works.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I'm tired of playing this game of "moving target".

              You said the worst thing that can happen was Google drop your site. I corrected you about worse things that could happen. My comment was stating facts, not an opinion as to whether Google will or want do what they will do. We do know they ban Adsense accounts for little or no reason, so your opinion is potentiall harmful to those that would believe you that there is little risk.
              Actually this is what I said:

              Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

              Even if Google can use those footprints to see that the majority of your links were coming from them, the worst thing that will happen is a devaluation.
              Nothing about a site being dropped. A devaluation of links...sure. A de-index, I don't think so. You think manipulation is bad now....wait till they start banning sites for incoming links and people start spamming competitors.

              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              And I also diagree with you stating opinions as facts, such as Google spending more in Instant than spam.
              Let me clarify. Everything I post on this forum is my opinion based on my own experiences. Sorry if you thought that my statements were trying to be construed as fact. Just as you say that in your opinion 90% of their algo resources are devoted to spam detection and removal, I say they devote a lot of resources to developing new products. I'm sure products like Instant weren't cheap to design and implement though.

              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              My own opinion based on my research and experience is that Google spends about 90% of the algo resources on SE spam detection and spam removal rather than direct ranking factors...A lot of SEO if just getting past Google's spam filters for both content and links.
              I don't know what you're doing to be having so much trouble getting past spam filters...but I never have any problems and I've used quite a bit of manipulative links on my sites. In fact, I've only ever had one site hit some sort of filter and there is no real evidence that it had anything to do with links or on-site content. I sold a website and after the sale it dropped for the SERPS for 2 months. It could have very well been something with the sale and the site being down for a short time. It returned to the same position after that period of time.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post




                I don't know what you're doing to be having so much trouble getting past spam filters...but I never have any problems and I've used quite a bit of manipulative links on my sites. In fact, I've only ever had one site hit some sort of filter and there is no real evidence that it had anything to do with links. I sold a website and after the sale it dropped for the SERPS for 2 months. It returned to the same position after that period of time.


                Go back and QUOTE where I said I had trouble getting past spam?

                How do you get from "90% of Google's algo is for spam" to me having problems with spam?

                And if you've never had a site dropped for spam, you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

                I can't wait to see how "off" your next response is...Can we at least pretend to deal with a point I actually make?
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                • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  Go back and QUOTE where I said I had trouble getting past spam?
                  I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that you saying that a lot of SEO is getting past the spam filters meant that when you SEO you have had trouble getting past spam filters.
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  A lot of SEO if
                  just getting past Google's spam filters for both content and links.
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  How do you get from "90% of Google's algo is for spam" to me having problems with spam?
                  See above.

                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  And if you've never had a site dropped for spam, you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.
                  So have you had a site dropped for spam or not? From this statement, I would assume yes. From your statement above I would assume no because you never said that you have had trouble getting past spam filters.

                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  I can't wait to see how "off" your next response is...Can we at least pretend to deal with a point I actually make?
                  What's your point again? That Google is going to find ways to get rid of the value placed on links and move to a different system for ranking websites. Ok, got it.

                  While I do think things will continue to evolve, it is my opinion that there will always be emphasis placed on links. I may be incorrect...however I remain strong in my position that whatever system Google decides to implement, there will be a way to manipulate.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                    Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

                    I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that you saying that a lot of SEO is getting past the spam filters meant that when you SEO you have had trouble getting past spam filters.

                    So have you had a site dropped for spam or not? From this statement, I would assume yes. From your statement above I would assume no because you never said that you have had trouble getting past spam filters.

                    Nice moving target argument again. YOU are WRONG about Google's algo. I'm sticking to my original point and won't let you use distraction to evade the point.

                    And you have no real experince now do you?

                    But I'll play along...I've done SEO for 14 years, BEFORE Google was even a search engine.

                    Yep, I've had plenty of sites dropped for spam. I actually once held 18 of the top 20 spots in Google for a very lucritive keyword.

                    I actually had to go back and remove MY OWN spam pages because I was afraid another webmaster would see my spam, report me and get all my pages dropped?

                    Does this count?

                    Also, almost 14 years to the day (I know because today is a birthday of someone very special to me) I put "las vegas" on a web page 150 times. Back then, the algo was simply a matter of who repeated the keywords the most times would rank the highest.

                    That afternoon I get an email from a friend telling me the engines are now banning pages/sites that repeate their kewords too much. I spent the whole night undoing what I spent the morning doing.

                    Does this count as not getting past spam filters?

                    The problem with you attempt to disparage me and my comments is that both of my statements are true:

                    I have had pages dropped for spam.

                    I don't have a problem getting past spam filters now and haven't for quite a while.

                    Not to mention, I said "research". Reading is fundamental. This means I may have read that Google spends 90% of their efforts on spam reduction and my comments weren't based on my own pages being dropped...Funny when you have made a couple of deductions, they always assume the "worse case scenario" with regard to how you interpret my comments.


                    I played along, now back to you being wrong about how Google spends their money again...




                    What's your point again? That Google is going to find ways to get rid of the value placed on links and move to a different system for ranking websites. Ok, got it.
                    Good, you can read. Would have save a lot of the BS above.

                    While I do think things will continue to evolve, it is my opinion that there will always be emphasis placed on links. I may be incorrect...however I remain strong in my position that whatever system Google decides to implement, there will be a way to manipulate.
                    And your opinion is factually wrong. There are already links that don't count.

                    One example is that Nofollow was a Google creation along these lines. Nofollow did NOT exist when I first started SEO.

                    I agree with you. I never said links won't be included in linking algos. I said, that Google WILL devalue or dismiss AUTO links. And if Google doen't web masters (programmers) will.

                    Again, you are making an argument that doesn't exist. My argument is that Google will devalue auto links. No more.

                    I base my opinion on the outrage of link spam at many of the portal script communities and the blogosphere. Community portals like KickApps have made the entire communties nofollow and are very anti-auto linking due to being spammed. Webmasters are getting mad. I believe this will escalate, not decrease over time.

                    I also base my opinion on programs like Scrapebox, xrunner and ubot (program your own) that now are very popular and being used by more and more people.

                    These auto-links do NOT help Google rank pages in any way now and only hurt some webmasters. It's really just a matter of how well Google can ID them, and I believe if we can find the, Google does.

                    I'm not making any moral judgements on link spamming, only predicting what Google (or webmasters) will be forced to do something, especially if there's ever a backlash towards Google for being the actual cause of all the link spam.

                    And you may not want to have a contigency plan in "just in case"...But I do, and I suggest others do to. I also said I don't know when the change will happen, which means we shouldn't stop auto linking now.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      Nice moving target argument again. YOU are WRONG about Google's algo. I'm sticking to my original point and won't let you use distraction to evade the point.
                      When did I evade the point? I said I got it. You keep looking for reasons to point out how wrong I am when I've acknowledged your point and disagreed with your opinion.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      And you have no real experince now do you?
                      What??? I may not have 14 years of experience, but I hardly think that spending 100s maybe 1000s of hours learning, practicing, and in some places teaching SEO doesn't count for some kind of experience.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      The problem with you attempt to disparage me and my comments is that both of my statements are true:

                      I have had pages dropped for spam.

                      I don't have a problem getting past spam filters now and haven't for quite a while.
                      Then why not say that instead of saying:

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      A lot of SEO if just getting past Google's spam filters for both content and links.
                      You see when I see someone saying, "Alot of SEO is getting past Google's spam filters", I logically assume that they have to work or have had to work to get past them....which is something I personally have never had to do.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      Not to mention, I said "research". Reading is fundamental. This means I may have read that Google spends 90% of their efforts on spam reduction and my comments weren't based on my own pages being dropped...
                      So you MAY have read that Google spends 90% of their time? Or you DID read that? If you DID read that, could you please link to it.

                      If you only MAY have read that then it's nothing more than your opinion which makes it about as solid as my opinion on what Google's spends its money on.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      I played along, now back to you being wrong about how Google spends their money again...
                      While I have already said that I may be wrong, I'd like you to point out what specifically I am wrong about? My opinions on what the future holds? I certainly can't be wrong about something that hasn't even happened yet.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      And your opinion is factually wrong. There are already links that don't count.
                      When did I say that there weren't links that didn't count?

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      Again, you are making an argument that doesn't exist. My argument is that Google will devalue auto links. No more.
                      Actually, you're argument was that incoming links could also get your site de-indexed and your Adsense account banned as evidenced from the following quote.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      The worst thing(s) that can happen is getting your site/ip banned and your adsense account dropped and the amount of time and money spent on automation wasted.
                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      These auto-links do NOT help Google rank pages in any way now and only hurt some webmasters. It's really just a matter of how well Google can ID them, and I believe if we can find the, Google does.
                      I acknowledged in my first post in this thread that Google can definitely find these links but that I don't think anything but a devaluation would occur...to which you responded that they could also de-index a site and ban your Adsense account. I have seen no evidence that people have been de-indexed for incoming links or anyone has had their Adsense account banned for incoming links. Until I see clear indisputable evidence that it has happened, I will continue to hold strong to the position that the worst thing that will happen is your links being devalued.

                      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                      And you may not want to have a contigency plan in "just in case"...But I do, and I suggest others do to. I also said I don't know when the change will happen, which means we shouldn't stop auto linking now.
                      I said in my first post that it is a good idea to build links from a variety of sources. If we both agree that incoming links will play some part in the algorithm no matter what, I'd say that my statement would count as some sort of contingency plan. After all, if incoming links are a factor than Google can't devalue every kind of link. So therefore, having a variety of link sources will protect yourself from a devaluation of a certain kind of link.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post


            And there would be plenty of mistakes if human reviewers were put in place. That would be worse than any algorithm because humans make false judgements, mistakes, and are biased no matter how you want to look at it. There would be no way to depend on human reviewers to make unbiased, non-judgemental decisions. It would leave way too much room for error on the table.

            And about faking it. I'm not a programmer so I can't give you a way to game that. But I'm sure there are people who would find a way. SEO's and black-hatters, whatever you want to call people who build links ALWAYS find a way. It's not going to end no matter what ranking factors come into play.
            .
            I wanted to focus on this bit...

            Do some research...Spend a day researching patents and reports issued by the major engines. At least put in 1/100th of the effort I have.

            If you do, you will find a Yahoo report that says human clicks tracking give better results than any algo they came up with. And you'll find all sorts of reports and patents showing human activity either equals or exceeds artificial algos.

            Basically, your entire premise is that a computer formula can't better predict what people want than real people.

            <laugh break> </laugh break>

            BTW, if you're not a programer why are you telling people it can be cheated if you can't name a single techinique to do so?

            And, I can cheat with ON Page, been doing it for years. I can cheat with links. Been doing that too for years. I'm adding my own links, and I bet you are too, which totally cheats the entire premise of "page rank" and "lin pop", with each link being a "citation" or "vote" for another site. It's not a vote by a real person which is the original intention, it's a link posted by a bot, pretending to be a real person.

            Therefore, we need to be consistent in our logic and say since people metrics can't be used since they can be cheated, any technique that can be cheated can't be used. So now we need to get rid of links and on-page content too. I will admit, that will solve the problem of page and link spam.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I wanted to focus on this bit...

              Do some research...Spend a day researching patents and reports issued by the major engines. At least put in 1/100th of the effort I have.

              If you do, you will find a Yahoo report that says human clicks tracking give better results than any algo they came up with. And you'll find all sorts of reports and patents showing human activity either equals or exceeds artificial algos.

              Basically, your entire premise is that a computer formula can't better predict what people want than real people.

              <laugh break> </laugh break>

              BTW, if you're not a programer why are you telling people it can be cheated if you can't name a single techinique to do so?

              And, I can cheat with ON Page, been doing it for years. I can cheat with links. Been doing that too for years. I'm adding my own links, and I bet you are too, which totally cheats the entire premise of "page rank" and "lin pop", with each link being a "citation" or "vote" for another site. It's not a vote by a real person which is the original intention, it's a link posted by a bot, pretending to be a real person.

              Therefore, we need to be consistent in our logic and say since people metrics can't be used since they can be cheated, any technique that can be cheated can't be used. So now we need to get rid of links and on-page content too. I will admit, that will solve the problem of page and link spam.
              I wasn't referring to SERP clicks. It was in response to you saying that Google could institute manual reviews for the top 100k sites.

              When did you ever even bring up the human click tracking in this thread?

              You said and I quote,
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


              I've addressed the human review factor many times over the years.

              1. They don't have to review every site. Only the top sites for their money keywords. Do the math. I've done it many times, it's very possible for Google to pay people to check the top SERPs, to the point of, I assume they do it.
              I was simply responding to that statement.

              And yes I said that I am not a programmer. But I do compete in the search engines. And since the beginning, people have been manipulating the system. It is my opinion that no matter what happens, people will find a way to manipulate it. If you want to dispute that you can. But history shows a different story...one where people find ways to game the system.

              For some reason whenever I say something, you assume that I'm declaring it an absolute fact, yet when you state something its just your opinion. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that what people say on a forum is their opinion.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post


                And yes I said that I am not a programmer. But I do compete in the search engines. And since the beginning, people have been manipulating the system. It is my opinion that no matter what happens, people will find a way to manipulate it. If you want to dispute that you can. But history shows a different story...one where people find ways to game the system.
                Again, you are twisting my words. You are NOW actually agreeing with me and making my point for me.

                Your little comment in red is actually funny, as it's totally made up. I never disputed this. Do you really need to make up fake disagreements?

                Yes, people will always game any system.

                They game pages. They game links. And people will try to game human metrics. So what?

                Google will either react or go out of business.

                Google IS trending to people metrics. Deal with it or not, that's your choice but don't tell me the sky isn't blue. And don't tell me Google won't react to link spamming or that they aren't trying to develope anti-cheating strategies for everything they do, including human metrics.

                And if Google is really concerned about being cheated, it would seem to me that a combinations of ranking factors which include on page, real human activity, and linking would be harder to cheat than just on page and linking...What am I missing?
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                • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  Again, you are twisting my words. You are NOW actually agreeing with me and making my point for me.

                  Your little comment in red is actually funny, as it's totally made up. I never disputed this. Do you really need to make up fake disagreements?

                  Yes, people will always game any system.

                  They game pages. They game links. And people will try to game human metrics. So what?

                  Google will either react or go out of business.

                  Google IS trending to people metrics. Deal with it or not, that's your choice but don't tell me the sky isn't blue. And don't tell me Google won't react to link spamming or that they aren't trying to develope anti-cheating strategies for everything they do, including human metrics.

                  And if Google is really concerned about being cheated, it would seem to me that a combinations of ranking factors which include on page, real human activity, and linking would be harder to cheat than just on page and linking...What am I missing?
                  I never said that google won't react to link spam. I clearly stated towards the beginning of this that it is my opinion that Google will devalue links not de-index a site.

                  It makes no rational sense to me to de-index sites with manipulative links. As soon as they start doing that it is going to be war in the SERPS. And I have yet to see a site de-indexed for incoming links. There have been situations where someone has said that's the reason...when really there were any number of reasons which could have caused it.

                  When have I twisted your words? Point that out for me please.
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        • Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Google can easily create a tag such as <nolinkjuice> </nolinkjuice> and every link between these two tags won't pass any link juice. This tag could easily be placed in WP templates, for example, so no links in the comments have any link juice.
          ???????????

          They already did 5 years ago

          it'a called rel="nofollow"

          I would have thought someone with your experience would know that
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  • Profile picture of the author Slin
    There is a now famous post on another forum (not going to name any names) where a user used a program called scrapebox (a web spamming tool) and decided to blast it towards his competitors site.

    I mean, if he used it on his own he would drop from the serps right?

    And guess what? His competitor dropped...like a rock.

    Until a few days later where he came back in the number one spot!

    Keep watching your site and keep building links to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Summer1
    I agree, build your backlinks naturally is a good idea.

    But what i have heard, if your site is new, sometimes Google places you in the first page sometimes it won't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rucco
      Well I just got done reading 5 months worth of interesting posts on this thread. Regardless of the various conflicting opinions, one question still remains....

      What happened to his site? Did it ever come back? Or is it just sitting in it's rightful spot on Google?
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    What happened to his site? Did it ever come back? Or is it just sitting in it's rightful spot on Google?
    Probably a typical case of he wasn't happy with his results and was quick to judge and point the blame at something, in this case, building backlinks too quickly.
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    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author jtooder
    Page 3 of this thread, it came back to Page 1 #4 spot.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
      Originally Posted by jtooder View Post

      Page 3 of this thread, it came back to Page 1 #4 spot.
      What an absolute shocker!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author mOrrI
    Originally Posted by Shannon Spoon View Post

    I just wanted to start this thread to let anyone know that doesn't that you can build backlinks too fast, Google will punish you.

    My site was on the first page of Google 7th position and after i bought a backlink package that added 2,000 backlinks in 7 days it went to the last page.

    So anyone who tells you to go crazy on backlinks that Google doesn't mind, does not know what they are talking about.

    Now before i bought the package i read several times that you need to build your links slowly. Man, i wish i would have listened. Lesson learned.
    Mental Note Taken!
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  • Profile picture of the author mozesteven
    I don't believe if the building links too fast will hurt your site. It depends to the age of your site. CNN everyday automatically build thousand or million links to CNN's site. However, CNN never ever be banned by search engine.

    If your domain just bought a couple weeks ago then have thousand links building, I think it will make the SE curious.

    Sorry if I am wrong.

    Regards,
    Mozes
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