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Does Latent Semantic Indexing Matter?

by Mukul Verma
24 replies
  • SEO
    • |
Does Latent Semantic Indexing Matter?

It is called called LSI

Cheers,
Mukul
#indexing #latent #matter #semantic
  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

    Does Latent Semantic Indexing Matter?

    It is called called LSI

    Cheers,
    Mukul
    Yes.

    It all has to do with making your articles flow for a human, while ensuring that certain words and patterns are intact.

    ...and, in some cases, it's not wise to use the same exact key phrase over and over again.

    ...plus....search engines are getting better and better at analyzing your articles. This makes having at least some background on latent semantic indexing and analysis quite important.


    ...I could ramble on about this subject for days....
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Thanks Alexa and x3xsolxdierx3x

    x3xsolxdierx3x, I will be back in a few days to see your progress

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

      Thanks Alexa and x3xsolxdierx3x

      x3xsolxdierx3x, I will be back in a few days to see your progress

      Cheers,
      Mukul
      lol...thanks, Mukul! My progress as far as contributing to this thread?

      If you are interested in learning more, I have some core knowledge I don't mind sharing...

      I do think it is important, but, with all the consideration that one COULD give to article writing, just writing one article could be a VERY timely endeavor, especially if you are a Type-A personality, like me, who likes to make sure everything is as perfect as possible before releasing...

      I could sit and make adjustments for SEO and LSI for days...lol...that can serve as a bit of a hindrance to productivity, though....sometimes, the best thing to do is to just jump in there with a fundamental core working knowledge...
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      • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        lol...thanks, Mukul! My progress as far as contributing to this thread?

        If you are interested in learning more, I have some core knowledge I don't mind sharing...

        I do think it is important, but, with all the consideration that one COULD give to article writing, just writing one article could be a VERY timely endeavor, especially if you are a Type-A personality, like me, who likes to make sure everything is as perfect as possible before releasing...

        I could sit and make adjustments for SEO and LSI for days...lol...that can serve as a bit of a hindrance to productivity, though....sometimes, the best thing to do is to just jump in there with a fundamental core working knowledge...
        Then we are opposites, I wont sit and perfect, but my wife will. Her jobs to beautify things.

        I spent 8 hours to write the outsource guide (which the knowledge is all in me). Then she took is and spent 2 weeks on editing it, adding all the what is outsource etc...information....LOL. I dont get what takes that much time, but hey I guess its a good balance. You need that balance.

        Perfection is a killer. I am glad I am not a perfectionist.

        I am working with a business partner and they asked my content writer to do LSI. I am like what?? So I am trying to learn about it and what better place then my friends at Warrior

        Cheers,
        Mukul
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Originally Posted by Mukul Verma View Post

          Then we are opposites, I wont sit and perfect, but my wife will. Her jobs to beautify things.

          I spent 8 hours to write the outsource guide (which the knowledge is all in me). Then she took is and spent 2 weeks on editing it, adding all the what is outsource etc...information....LOL. I dont get what takes that much time, but hey I guess its a good balance. You need that balance.

          Perfection is a killer. I am glad I am not a perfectionist.

          I am working with a business partner and they asked my content writer to do LSI. I am like what?? So I am trying to learn about it and what better place then my friends at Warrior

          Cheers,
          Mukul
          lol...being a perfectionist can be a bit of a blessing AND a curse. Because of it, I'd like to think that my projects are VERY thoroughed and detailed, however, it is also the single source of 'missed opportunities', and, also, to a degree, lost profits....because, I'll just spend SO MUCH time working on one project. There definitely needs to be a delicate balance....

          I do think that my OCD and tendency to be a perfectionist, has helped to, at least, provide outstanding value to my customers.

          LSI/LSA is actually fairly straitforward.

          One has to consider that search engines are continually evolving, and with each day, LSI/LSA is become even moreso relevant AND imperative. With so many people also trying to game the system, this means that search engines have to be EXTRA smart in weeding these people out....LSI helps them to determine whether an article was written with the intent to trick the search engines OR with the intent to provide real quality information.

          Whenever you publish and article/blog post, the search engines are ACTIVELY looking for whether or not your intent is to provide this quality of information and if it provides REAL value to the reader. Like I said, with the evolution of search engines, this is becoming more and more relevant nowadays....

          Understanding the fundamentals behind LSI can help one specifically tailor their article to be seen as valuable....which 'can' translate into one's article being trafficked more, and ultimate make more money....
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBeard
    A short quote on the definitve guide to why "LSI" shouldn't be in your SEO vocabulary.
    Latent Semantic Indexing and Google; One more time | Search Engine Optimization | Search Engines
    You have been warned; the ignorant, short sighted or snake oil peddlers professing LSI and Google, will get the smack from this author!! – unless yer talking about AdSense…
    That doesn't mean to say that Google doesn't use some kind of semantic analysis, but you need to get your terminology right.
    That also doesn't necessarily mean that links between semantically related content are more valuable either, but it is certainly more logical for users.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by AndyBeard View Post

      A short quote on the definitve guide to why "LSI" shouldn't be in your SEO vocabulary.
      Latent Semantic Indexing and Google; One more time | Search Engine Optimization | Search Engines
      That doesn't mean to say that Google doesn't use some kind of semantic analysis, but you need to get your terminology right.
      That also doesn't necessarily mean that links between semantically related content are more valuable either, but it is certainly more logical for users.
      LOL...

      That blog post is funny, if a little worrying.

      Of course Google uses semantic analysis... It is clear for all to see if you study it a little. Or a lot, like we do here.

      I'm not saying LSI is the holy grail of content creation, but it's not to be dismissed out of hand like that.

      I'm not peddling any "LSI program", I have no financial gain to be had by acknowledging it... but still, I'm saying that it is a factor.

      What's even funnier is how easily it flows into naturally written content without the author even knowing it.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        LOL...

        That blog post is funny, if a little worrying.

        Of course Google uses semantic analysis... It is clear for all to see if you study it a little. Or a lot, like we do here.

        I'm not saying LSI is the holy grail of content creation, but it's not to be dismissed out of hand like that.

        I'm not peddling any "LSI program", I have no financial gain to be had by acknowledging it... but still, I'm saying that it is a factor.

        What's even funnier is how easily it flows into naturally written content without the author even knowing it.
        I agree.

        Have you read the comments on that post, JayXtreme?

        Scroll down to the last one, by an "Adam J. Humphreys"
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        • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
          Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

          I agree.

          Have you read the comments on that post, JayXtreme?

          Scroll down to the last one, by an "Adam J. Humphreys"
          Yes, interesting stuff.

          The stuff that Adam J notices are the same as we do when we do this kind of research, and like yourself, we know it is worth paying attention to...

          Using the term L.S.I. is convenient, and maybe doesn't properly describe what we mean by it... but it is definitely there.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think some of the discussions on blogs, etc about LSA and LSI are over analysis or pseudo-intellectual ramblings. The simple explanation is synonym words and phrases that refer to the keyword phrase can be used by a writer and will be interpreted correctly by google.

            A skilled writer uses LSA without considering it. An unskilled writer should learn at least the function of LSI as it can improve writing ability. The value of LSI is the freedom to write in a flowing, non-keyword stuffed, manner as google will understand the focus of your text.

            LSI is similar to so many SEO and internet "protocols"....a basic overview of what it is and what it does is all most of us need. In depth details of LSI aren't critical to most marketers.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author lee schmidt
              I think "LSI" and "latent semantic indexing" are just fancy terms that marketers like to throw around to sound smart.
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              • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
                Originally Posted by lee schmidt View Post

                I think "LSI" and "latent semantic indexing" are just fancy terms that marketers like to throw around to sound smart.
                Sigh...some do....some KNOW what it means and the true application to content, and how that manifests into rankings and increased $$$. There is a bit of a historical context behind the evolution of the internet, with regards to why some content, that was once seen as valuable, may not longer be seen as valuable....

                For the sake of this thread, and because I'm in a bit of a rush today...here is a snippet of something I wrote:

                "....Since Google is interested in protecting their brand as a search engine, they want to direct internet users to relevant information. If not for LSI, articles could look something like this:

                Example 1 – Raptor four wheelers:

                Raptor four wheelers are best. I love to eat fried chicken with my dog, and I like deer hunting. I find myself getting stressed out, and my doctor told me get the dog, so I did. I still love fried chicken, so I’m going to go ride my Raptor four wheelers.

                ....This meaningless paragraph is 50 words long. I injected the keywords, “Raptor four wheelers” twice, so it’s pretty much optimized at prime keyword density. If I went on to write 1000 words of junk like this, but maintained keyword density of 2.1%, I could still land on the front page, at least as of a few years ago. These days, you may get on the top page initially, but you probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than staying there long term. If you’re into gambling like this, buy the lottery ticket. It’s a much safer “investment” than writing articles of this nature...."
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  • Profile picture of the author CDawson
    Banned
    I think it does. Just like speech, writing can be a powerful tool.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBeard
    @JayXtreme

    Certainly going back 2 years you have been telling people to read up on LSI, so what you are defending is nothing to do with selling a product, but that doesn't mean you are not defending something.

    Here is an admission of guilt

    I have used the term LSI on my blog countless times up until 3 years ago when I finally learnt the real difference, because I hang out with my betters and learn from them.


    The blog post I referenced is as close to factually correct about LSI as it relates to Google as you will find anywhere on the net.

    There is no question there is some kind of semantic analysis going on - Google hire lots of information retrieval specialists for a reason.
    Matt Cutts is an IR geek and has presented at SIGIR about adversial IR.

    It is quite true Google have growing and improved infrastructure, which they are using to speed up information retrieval. If anything that makes the use of LSI specifically less likely becaue it doesn't scale.

    x3xsolxdierx3x

    Sorry, you are stuck in a terminology rut
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by AndyBeard View Post

      @JayXtreme

      Certainly going back 2 years you have been telling people to read up on LSI, so what you are defending is nothing to do with selling a product, but that doesn't mean you are not defending something.
      I'm not emotionally attached enough to defend something without strong evidence though, Andy....

      I'm much more of a stat man like that. I need numbers, results and figures before I do anything.

      Having said that,

      I do think the whole discussion here is destroyed because of these three letters:

      L.S.I.


      Ironic, isn't it. The very term we use to describe a process is destroying discussions about a topic. Purely because the term isn't tightly fitted with what we are actually discussing.

      Maybe I'm a little guilty of using this term because it is "easy" to label a process.

      Here is an admission of guilt

      I have used the term LSI on my blog countless times up until 3 years ago when I finally learnt the real difference, because I hang out with my betters and learn from them.
      ?.... Strange.

      The blog post I referenced is as close to factually correct about LSI as it relates to Google as you will find anywhere on the net.
      I disagree.

      It's a strong post, intended to spark debate.

      Most in the blogging community would simply consider it to be link-bait. Although there are some good points, and I wouldn't dismiss the blog post as easy as he is dismissing the process he talks about.... it does seem like it's more publicity than meat. Without reading more from the blog, I can't really comment any more.

      There is no question there is some kind of semantic analysis going on - Google hire lots of information retrieval specialists for a reason.
      Matt Cutts is an IR geek and has presented at SIGIR about adversial IR.
      And this is where we agree

      off topic: Have you been present at any SIGIR sponsored events?.. Just curious.

      Peace

      Jay
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      Bare Murkage.........

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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Let's take LSI out of the classroom and into the real world here for a moment. I'll give you an example that defines LSI from a perspective that allowed me to make money because Google uses LSI as a way to serve up search results.

        I have an ecommerce site. I sell physical products. I also wholesale and distribute physical products. These products all come from Europe and I sell them here in the States.

        So one day I get a call from a store owner looking to buy a certain product. We'll call the product "X" for this discussion. He needs 300 units of product X and went looking for them on the internet.

        He typed "X distributors in Europe" into Google. I know that because I'm able to match certain search terms in my log with customer requests.

        Now, nowhere on my site does that phrase exist. However, the product is on my site, the word Europe is on mysite, and so is the word wholesale. Wholesale and distributor are two words that can be interchanged to some degree and are definitely symantically related.

        My customer typed the above phrase into Google, and Google served up my webpage as the first result even though the keyphrase the customer typed in is nowhere on my site. But Google's algo is able to put together a reasonable arguement that the chosen long tail keyphrase typed in would fit be a good fit with my site. And it was.

        Bottom line...I ended up selling over $5000 worth of product 'X' to that customer over a 2 year period.

        To me the power of LSI is not in the manipulation of keywords included on a webpage for the benefit of getting rankings, rather it is the result of having clearly defined and focused web pages so that a search engine can determine through a specific algo what the intention of the webpage is about.

        In essence, what Alexa describes is more or less the way it works. If your webpages are clearly about a specific topic Google has the ability through LSI to interpret the meaning of the page and assign a given value to that page relative to what other ways there are to express a particular phrase, especially in the long tail which is where LSI really shines.

        ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBeard
    The key point about not using the term is as Dave suggested, it limits your perspective - even LSA limits your perspective.

    I hate linking to Wikipedia, but there is a point
    hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_semantic_indexing

    (ok so I deliberately broke the link)

    Search that page for a reference to Google or SEO

    Even search engine only appears once.

    If it was thought to have some relationship with Google search results, I am sure the IR people who no doubt police those pages would have allowed at least one reference (from a reliable source) to get through.

    I don't attend SIGIR or have anything to do with them, because I can't even fathom all the math on that Wikipedia page. Here is a recap of Matt's presentation.
    Jeff's Search Engine Caffè: Matt Cutts SIGIR Industry Day Presentation: WebSpam and Adversarial IR: The Road Ahead

    Bill, Google does some really wonderful, and sometimes really stupid and freaky things - just as easily as they can send you some unexpected relevant traffic, they can suddenly rank you for some low converting almost unrelated term... and possibly kill or dampen your traffic on keywords that convert.

    I hope you added some content to pick up more relevant traffic related to those keywords
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  • Profile picture of the author rgenterprise
    If you're a good writer (or hire one) LSI is and should be something that occurs naturally. This whole obsession with making sure your articles include LSI keywords is a recent thing in the past couple yrs. Does it matter if it does? That depends on the person. People can rank just fine for their targeted keyword(s) and have been doing so for years without focusing on LSI.
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    • Profile picture of the author abednego
      Originally Posted by rgenterprise View Post

      If you're a good writer (or hire one) LSI is and should be something that occurs naturally. This whole obsession with making sure your articles include LSI keywords is a recent thing in the past couple yrs. Does it matter if it does? That depends on the person. People can rank just fine for their targeted keyword(s) and have been doing so for years without focusing on LSI.
      Yup, thats true - short and to the point.

      If you're having to "throw it in", you won't sound natural. Providing quality writing will get you better traffic... who cares if its not a lot - if its all junk?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Wow, thanks all for this insight on LSI

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author IMTMarketing
    Some advanced group of internet marketers often use the label "LSI-Latent Semantic Indexing"

    Without getting into any complex mathematical formulas... I just call it advanced SEO Content Writing Protocol- using keyword related themes, and keyword relationship patterns.

    One way to see keywords that are related "relationship" Is some search engines show a drop down window-menu when someone types in a keyword, and other related keywords that are grouped etc often appear...

    Thought I would share some research, and some of you might find it interesting?

    I have been visiting the forum for some time, but just registered, I have to post 15 times, before I can post links... PM if your interested in the link urls...

    Latent Semantic Indexing: An overview



    Latent Semantic Indexing- LSI
    The course will also discuss recent applications of machine learning, such as robotic control, data mining, autonomous navigation, bioinformatics, speech recognition, and text and web data processing.
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    For website owners all LSI means is to make sure that your text is highly relevant and that you are aware of how it links to similar subjects. It is all under the umbrella of "topical relevance". Google loves it.
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