Rand Fishkin is "Getting More Worried About the Effectiveness of Webspam"

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Earlier yesterday, Rand Fishkin, CEO & Co-Founder of SEOmoz, posted an interesting article regarding Spam, which was followed by an interesting response from Aaron Wall of SEO Book.com.

I found these postings particularly interesting because Spam is all too often a topic of heated debate here on these forums.

What is Spam? What isn't Spam?

Google and the other search engines denounce spam and do what they can to help eliminate its influence in order to provide a more "organic" search experience for users. That being said, people still promote and practice SEO tactics that are arguably considered spam. What is and isn't spam isn't universally agreed upon.

Some people think that forum signature links, such as mine, are spam, regardless of the quality of posts that the owner of said links makes. Others feel that they're perfectly normal and promote active participation in forum discussion.

Some feel that blog commenting as a method of link building is spam, while others see it as harmless and serving the same purpose as forum signature links. The more incentive people have to comment, the more likely they are to actively visit that particular blog and take the time to comment.

Sure, abuse can happen in both scenarios, but isn't that what moderation is for?

Some people here promote "spinning" articles and other nonsense which really clogs up the web with tons of... crap that I know annoys me when I come across it, stuff that I definitely consider spam.

What does everyone here think about the articles that I linked above? After reading them, how would all of you define what is and isn't considered SEO SPAM?

Hearing people's perspective on this would be interesting and potentially make for good discussion. =)
#fishkin #rand #rand fishkin #seo #spam
  • Profile picture of the author jsherloc
    Great idea for debate, unfortunately it always comes down to "ethical stand-offs", opinions with no factual references, and a lot of hypocritical statements spewed out along the way for some reason. The fact is, none of us will ever agree on what is SPAM and what is not SPAM.

    To me, all IM aside, as an internet browser I believe that crappy spun content is probably the WORST form of spam that affects the MOST browsers on a daily basis. A link on some blog or forum profile will not be seen by the majority of internet browsers. Ofcourse, this is just my opinion and I do realize everything is connected and related. But realistically, to me, spun crap content affects everyday users lives way more than any other type of "linkbuilding". These are jamming up the organic results with unreliable nonsense.

    To be honest, I think that the Internet is just as "promotional" or "commercial" now as it is educational for the most part, at least for most niches. So I see SPAM in just about every "crevice" of my online experience. Sad, but true.
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    • I'm sure that everyone has their own definition of spam and probably a subjective one at that. My definition of spam would have to be any content that is of little or no value TO ME and consumes time and/or resources.

      I also have to agree with the point that in some ways google promotes spam. As far as SEO is concerned this is the main motivation for a number of "spamming" techniques. Think how much of this spam would we see if google didn't consider profile backlinkgs or forum posts, blog comments, articles (spun or original), and everything else under the sun.

      I think the sad state of SEO is that whatever helps you rank in google will become this sort of new-age spam so long as it can be artificially manipulated. On the other hand I think people don't give google enough credit. Is spam really a problem? First of all how would anyone know that there is too much "spam" without relying on antecdotal evidence? Last time I checked it's rather difficult to find all the websites that have been deindexed by google. When you type in a search how often do you look past page 2 of the results, maybe you should try reading through pages 3-4,000 and tell me if google is doing a good job or not.

      It's also possible that google trying to fight off all the spam was a round about way of achieving their goal. Ideally google wants to provide the best user experience. Perhaps people thought that meant they were putting all this effort into combating spam online but maybe the pendulum has swung the other way. Is it possible that this "spam" adds quality to their search engine?

      Something else worth pondering: Who is google catering to now? Maybe the users they are trying to provide this quality to has a different set of values from us (after all SEO experts and IMers aren't the only people using google last time I checked). In this day and age its funny but it seems that regulation has become the norm. People want to point at the SERPs and say "Oh my God there is a spam problem, we need regulation faster and more of it." I'm sure this makes for great headlines and blog posts but is this the reality? To me it seems like the problem is exaggerated and taken a bit beyond its context.

      One last point regarding spam and regulation; the problem with regulation is that you give the offending party all the power. Say I'm a spammer or some SEO Black Hat IMer and I spam blog post like mad crazy. Now blog owners have to change their posting/linking policy, and the search engines have to discount or devalue this type of backlink. Who is losing out there? Sure the Spammer will be affected for like a day or so until he/she moves on and finds something else to ruin, but in reality it's all the people that genuinely post on all these forums and appreciate the link that they "earned" that lose out. In that situation who is ACTING and who is REACTING?

      I'm sure at some point the search engines will have to draw their line in the sand and state where they "really" stand when it comes to "spam", but until that day we can't allow spammers to dictate how we do SEO. Well at least thats my half a cent opinion lol and sorry that was way more then I had planned on posting.
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      ...writes many things that are off topic, tangential, and completely wrong......

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      • Profile picture of the author dburk
        Originally Posted by HunterSnake View Post

        Earlier yesterday, Rand Fishkin, CEO & Co-Founder of SEOmoz, posted an interesting article regarding Spam, which was followed by an interesting response from Aaron Wall of SEO Book.com.

        I found these postings particularly interesting because Spam is all too often a topic of heated debate here on these forums.

        What is Spam? What isn't Spam?

        Google and the other search engines denounce spam and do what they can to help eliminate its influence in order to provide a more "organic" search experience for users. That being said, people still promote and practice SEO tactics that are arguably considered spam. What is and isn't spam isn't universally agreed upon.

        Some people think that forum signature links, such as mine, are spam, regardless of the quality of posts that the owner of said links makes. Others feel that they're perfectly normal and promote active participation in forum discussion.

        Some feel that blog commenting as a method of link building is spam, while others see it as harmless and serving the same purpose as forum signature links. The more incentive people have to comment, the more likely they are to actively visit that particular blog and take the time to comment.

        Sure, abuse can happen in both scenarios, but isn't that what moderation is for?

        Some people here promote "spinning" articles and other nonsense which really clogs up the web with tons of... crap that I know annoys me when I come across it, stuff that I definitely consider spam.

        What does everyone here think about the articles that I linked above? After reading them, how would all of you define what is and isn't considered SEO SPAM?

        Hearing people's perspective on this would be interesting and potentially make for good discussion. =)
        Hi HunterSnake,

        [sigh] To me this is just another "linkbait" article based on a popular yet controversial topic. Exactly what Rand is known for. Don't get me wrong, I like Rand and I consider him a masterful linkbait marketer. He does a great job of promoting his business by using a method I like to call "Populist Promotion".

        As a Populist promoter, he looks for the political angle on topics and exploits that for the controversial advantage. He masterfully writes content that focuses on the emotional aspects of the topic which adds fuel to the controversy.

        Since this is an Internet Marketing forum, I think members here are best served by studying Rands linkbait tactics, not his emotionally charged conclusions. For this article in particular, I do not even buy the premise of his article, which seems to be that Google has been charged to "fight spam".

        Google's not in business to be a "spam fighter", they are are search engine charged with giving relevant results to search queries. I believe it is more important to them to deliver relevant and useful search results, and the only resources expended on filtering spam should be to serve that end. They have no obligation beyond that to "fight spam".

        The whole notion of Google being some sort of "web nanny" that is in the business of punishing spammers, or penalizing websites, is extremely misguided. Google is just trying to give good results in their search engine and to help advertisers make good money from sponsored listings.

        I think even though most of those websites have engaged in aggressive promotional campaigns, they do represent relevant and useful search results, regardless of promotional backlinks, which you may, or may not, consider to be spam. I think those search results demonstrate Google's excellent capacity to deliver relevant and useful results irregardless of the promotional nature of many, but not all of their backlinks. For all we know, those promotianl links may have had little or no direct impact on the rankings. Kudos to Google!

        Articles like this one are more entertaining than useful. Folks that are looking for useful information should take these emotionally charged linkbait articles as such. It always gives me a bit of a chuckle when I hear folks quoting Rand as if his linkbait posts are credible facts. There may be a few facts sprinkled into them, but for the most part they are just populist opinions, not accurate facts.

        On the Definition of Spam
        • Spam = Totally self-serving and unwanted.
        • Spammy = promotional in nature.

        If we were to define "spam" as anything that is promotional, which I don't, we could argue that Google is the biggest server of spam on the planet, due to their AdWords and AdSense programs. I believe that is just too broad of a definition and dangerous to our freedom to hold such a purist attitude. That is the path to social dictatorship and the loss of our financial freedom.

        I believe we are justified in our fear of anti-capitalists that want to rob us of all that we earn and turn it over to a centralized government power to dole out in exchange for obedience to them as our master. I believe it is important that we get the definition of spam right, our very freedoms may come down to how this definition is handled. There is a political struggle going on right now in America that may hinge, in part, on how "spam" is defined. Please keep that in mind as you consider definitions that could lead to oppressive government policies. Please people, let's not label all promotional activity as "spam", lest we shall doom our industry and our future as a free people.
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