Once and for all: THERE IS NO SANDBOX!

russells

15 years ago

I've been building sites for nearly 2 years and I've never been 'sandboxed'.

~Russ

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paulgl

15 years ago

Unfortunately, this is not once and for all.
In fact, people join the WF just to rant about being in the
sandbox.

I've said many times before...

I wish there was a sandbox and more sites were buried in it.

What people think is a sandbox, is just the place your site sits
because google does not think it as good as sites above it.
Instead of making their site better, they sit, pout, and blame it
on the big bad google. They only have themselves to blame.

Because of the insanity with mini sites, exact domain match, thinly
made sites with little useful content, the rants will continue. Because
these techniques have been drilled and killed, the masses will continue
to be hoodwinked.

Even great sites will experience fluctuations. People somehow cannot stomach
that the internet is dynamic, and that their site should be #1 all the time. They
forget that google is striving to show the best site for the searches at that time
and place. So they panic.

FYI: We all have sites that fluctuate. But we don't put all of our eggs in the
google basket. I stopped relying on google a long time ago. Guess what? By
ignoring google and concentrating on real visitors, my rankings have actually
solidified. That's exactly how google tells you to do it. No, it's not a sure thing.
There are no sure things.

Paul

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paulgl

Even great sites will experience fluctuations. People somehow cannot stomach that the internet is dynamic, and that their site should be #1 all the time. They
forget that google is striving to show the best site for the searches at that time
and place. So they panic.

Hi Paul,

So what are you trying to say? That our websites don't exist in a vacuum?

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paulgl

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Paul,

So what are you trying to say? That our websites don't exist in a vacuum?

I wish I could take credit for that line, but was stolen from one of the greatest posts
here. I should have bookmarked that post.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

The sand box exists.

Its every page that is not ranked in the top five. So from a practical point of view anything that stops your site from ranking is a sand box. its all semantics. People don't give a fig newton what you call it. If they are not making money then its their sandbox.

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

The sand box exists.

Its every page that is not ranked in the top five. So from a practical point of view anything that stops your site from ranking is a sand box. its all semantics. People don't give a fig newton what you call it if they are not making money then its their sandbox.

Hi Mike,

You are so right!

The so called "Google Sandbox" exists in the minds of many webmasters. However, is something that only exists in our imagination real or imaginary?

Does reality exist or is it just imagined? When you can no longer distinguish reality from imagination are you still sane? I believe, for the sake of our own sanity, that we should insist that the "sandbox" does not really exist. But hey, that's just my reality, you own experience of reality may vary from mine.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

The so called "Google Sandbox" exists in the minds of many webmasters. However, is something that only exists in our imagination real or imaginary?

Not really my point though. the sand box DOES exist - not in imagination but in the serps. If a site drops or does not get to the top then thats a "sandbox" for that site. I am not trying to be cute but people are always going to claim this because something is really happening to their site no matter what you want to call it.

So its all semantics.

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bgmacaw 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

If a site drops or does not get to the top then thats a "sandbox" for that site.

I know what you mean. My favorite sports teams always go in the 'sandbox' whenever I bet on them.
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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Not really my point though. the sand box DOES exist - not in imagination but in the serps. If a site drops or does not get to the top then thats a "sandbox" for that site. I am not trying to be cute but people are always going to claim this because something is really happening to their site no matter what you want to call it.

So its all semantics.

Hi Mike,

Thanks. Your reply "really" is a perfect example of my earlier point.

What is "really" happening is not a sandbox, however the "sandbox" is indeed what they seem to imagine. The difference is in what is real and what is imagined. We must be careful to not lose touch with what is real or we may lose a grasp of our sanity. What I'm asserting is that this goes beyond semantics and crosses over into our perceptions of what is real.

P.S. You could perceive this post as a suggestion that discussing SEO in this forum could cause one to lose touch with reality and drive one to insanity. In fact, don't we often hear folks speak of how Google is driving them mad (as in insane)?

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markowe

15 years ago

My understanding of the sandbox is not when your site is deindexed altogether, but simply consigned so far down the listings that it has obviously been penalised in some way.

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by markowe

My understanding of the sandbox is not when your site is deindexed altogether, but simply consigned so far down the listings that it has obviously been penalised in some way.

Hi markowe,

So it never occurs to you that you simply have not yet earned the higher rankings? Do you really think your competitors' techniques are so inferior to your own, that your techniques couldn't have failed, that it must be a "penalty"? :confused:

Isn't this simply a failure of logic?

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dburk

15 years ago

Hi orvn,

You are stepping into contentious territory. You have the audacity to go after one of the most worshiped myths in the industry. What next, are you going to tell us that unicorns and mermaids are not real either?

There are a number of senior Warriors that have been trying to tell folks this for years on this forum. Google scientist and engineers have asserted that "there is no sandbox" from earliest days of this myth, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. Some people want to believe in it so badly, that you just can't convince them otherwise.

Please don't spoil that magical, mystical aura that surrounds SEO technology! Reality is harsh and your scientific approach is just going to ruin the market for magic beans and voodoo dolls.

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orvn

15 years ago

Thanks guys!
I get some sort of an odd and perverse pleasure from discovering that I discovered a myth (:
I think I have enough for a top ten list, lol.

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orvn

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Not really my point though. the sand box DOES exist - not in imagination but in the serps. If a site drops or does not get to the top then thats a "sandbox" for that site. I am not trying to be cute but people are always going to claim this because something is really happening to their site no matter what you want to call it.

So its all semantics.

Right, but it's awful misleading semantics!

The word "sandbox" by etymology suggests a closed distinct place, where sites are taken to frolic and play around, wouldn't you say?

The term itself is too counter-intuitive to equate it as the same thing as simple as a low SERP position due to poor practices.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by orvn

The term itself is too counter-intuitive to equate it as the same thing as simple as a low SERP position due to poor practices.

I don't think people really think about frolic when they say their site has been sandboxed. They mean that its trapped and they can't move it up. Maybe the term is a bit misleading to those of us deep in SEO. You are correct on that but some sites do drop like a rock when certain things are done.

You can say its the algo but the page is still stuck where it is - not getting traffic and thats why people will always revert to that word until there is another word to use that is as common as the term sandox.

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orvn

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Bottom line....no one knows if there's a sandbox effect or not.

I think further experimentation in the manner that I suggested would answer the question (i.e.- whether or not malicious sites can rise up in SERPS again quickly)

I enjoyed the way you shrewdly termed it as "the sandbox effect" rather than just "the sandbox", which suggests and ongoing process rather than a concrete noun, reenforcing your point and discrediting mine :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

You can say its the algo but the page is still stuck where it is - not getting traffic and thats why people will always revert to that word until there is another word to use that is as common as the term sandox.

Any serious fall in rank that Google administers to someone performing SEO to their site, ends up being a result of the sandbox, eh?

Hm.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by orvn

Any serious fall in rank that Google administers to someone performing SEO to their site, ends up being a result of the sandbox, eh?

Hm.

No man not what I meant. Not just a fall. People use that when their sites are stuck. Nothing they do moves them. there is somethng that is stopping the site from moving up in the algo. You can call it the sandbox or something else but thats what they are referring to in my experience.
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101millionAds

15 years ago

Originally Posted by orvn

Right, but it's awful misleading semantics!

The word "sandbox" by etymology suggests a closed distinct place, where sites are taken to frolic and play around, wouldn't you say?

The term itself is too counter-intuitive to equate it as the same thing as simple as a low SERP position due to poor practices.

I had a website that just vanished for 9 months.

Where the heck was it all the time then??

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cbpayne

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Biggy Fat

You know, come to think about it, I can't prove that it DOES exist, and no one can prove that it DOESN'T exist, so I guess we're all wrong haha. Let the debate continue.

Historically, what was known as the sandbox and used by Google as tthe sandbox was easy to prove and there was a very specific criteria to diagnose a site that was in it. They just do not use it anymore.

Originally Posted by 101millionAds

I had a website that just vanished for 9 months.
Where the heck was it all the time then??

Its rankings dropped!!!! No one is denying that rankings do not go up and down in response to link building campaigns or other SEO changes. That is just a rankings change!!!! It is NOT what Google used to use as the "sandbox".

I repeat what I said above ... if you been around SEO long enough, you know exactly what the sandbox was. What people use that term for today is not what the sandbox was.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by orvn

There is no sandbox. Although if you're really very terrible, your SERP position is hurt.

At least not in my experience, and in the past month I've been putting sites up that are dangerously black hat for testing purposes.

In one case, one of my obsolete sites got infected with a XSS cross-site scripter that was iframing to like 4 different sites.

Well, for experiment's sake, I copied the iframe injection code and put it all over the place, making my site appear to be some manner of hideous mutated link farm viral reproduction centre.

I'm pretty sure that when the Googlebot saw it, it shat bricks. Sadly, I had to remove the site because my hosting company started complaining and asking me WTF I was doing, but the site was up for about a month and was reindexed several times, during that period.

The site dropped SO LOW in the rankings that Googleing it's exact URL brought it up on page three, with a whole bunch of DNS directories preceding it, LOL!

Interestingly, none of the sites that were involved in the cross-site scripting ring that I experimented with were removed from Google. Even sites that had a malware warning on them were STILL findable via the SERPs.

It is with these experiments that I humbly propose that THERE IS NO GODDAMNED SANDOX!

Stop complaining about it. Your pages are probably just dancing. What the hell do you think you did that was so awful that Google insisted on putting you in time-out anyways?

Disagree with me? Well explain why.

You don't even know what the sandbox is, so you'll have to forgive some of us if we don't embrace your conclusion. If anything, your experiment confirms that there might in fact be a sandbox as opposed to disproving its existence.

Bottom line....no one knows if there's a sandbox effect or not.

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aaron_nimocks

15 years ago

Wow haven't heard sandbox in a long time.

I wrote a stick about in at DP in 2006.

Google Sandbox FAQ

Why do people still keep going on and on about it? Probably because there is still a sticky at DP and all OLD content relating the subject doesn't get deleted and is still available for people to read.

Do I believe there is still a Sandbox, don't know, haven't tested in a long time.

Check out that FAQ I posted though, seems ages ago.

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jhonsean

15 years ago

Too many discussions and I find more useful and informative for as a new seo. In my opinion sandbox is only a part of google. Its look like this google-the president sandbox-police. Its just for me i hope it helps.

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joma12

15 years ago

not every page can be on page one as there are simply too many pages avaiable it depends on the specifique keyword and the unique content too but most is SEO related also it takes some time before you can rank on the 1st page with a specific keyword try an other and you will see your rank will be different.
I had a site it was for years on place 17 or lower than I optimized did som SEO and now after 3 week it ranks on page 1 third entry. Also dot forget there are websites which pay to be listed first so they pass before you.

Do simply proper SEO and put valuable and original content which is not findable on other sites and you will make it to page 1

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orvn

15 years ago

Originally Posted by joma12

not every page can be on page one as there are simply too many pages avaiable it depends on the specifique keyword and the unique content too but most is SEO related also it takes some time before you can rank on the 1st page with a specific keyword try an other and you will see your rank will be different.
I had a site it was for years on place 17 or lower than I optimized did som SEO and now after 3 week it ranks on page 1 third entry. Also dot forget there are websites which pay to be listed first so they pass before you.

Do simply proper SEO and put valuable and original content which is not findable on other sites and you will make it to page 1

I think you're replying to the wrong thread.

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amo992

15 years ago

Originally Posted by orvn

I'm pretty sure that when the Googlebot saw it, it shat bricks.

This sentence amuses me.

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dvduval

15 years ago

You are dealing with a super computer that takes into account trillions of pieces of data. The "sandbox effect" is more something that is observed by humans trying to explain why their site isn't ranking. It is becoming increasingly difficult to beat this amazing super computer known as google, but there are many ways to get traffic to your site through google, and it starts with creating a site people love. Get that right and you will take Sandbox out of your vocabulary.

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rain21

15 years ago

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markowe 15 years ago

Originally Posted by rain21

everyone wont go there, only people who do SEO with high competitive keywords can go there for sometime .. Google Sandbox FAQ

I am really not some 'sandbox proponent' - I don't care what you call it, there just seems to be an effect whereby your site is consigned to an exceptionally low ranking that is out of all proportion to its quality, SEO factors etc. It is what the OP said - your site doesn't even rank for its own domain name. It's like the G making very very sure that your site does not come up in any searches, except extreme obscure long-tails. So it's not like Google saying 'Your site isn't that great' and putting it on page 7, it's like saying, 'Go and play on page 450 for a while'.

The fact that people say they have never experienced this is bully for them, but I have seen it plenty of times, including on sites that I felt were of a good quality, with original, informative content.

But I have never heard this idea that it happens to sites optimised for very competitive keywords - interesting, as a couple of recent 'flops' of mine have targeted just such keywords, hmm...
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Biggy Fat

15 years ago

Until Matt Cutts himself says the words "There is no Google sandbox", you will ALL be wrong. There is no concrete proof to the contrary, so none of you will be able to prove yourselves right.

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markowe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Biggy Fat

Until Matt Cutts himself says the words "There is no Google sandbox", you will ALL be wrong. There is no concrete proof to the contrary, so none of you will be able to prove yourselves right.

Wait, if Matt says there IS NO sandbox then there definitely IS one? Or hang on, it's a bluff - he knows we are expecting him to try to throw us off the scent, so he is actually telling the truth to confuse us! Darn, he's a tricky one and no mistake.

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cbpayne

15 years ago

All those who think the sandbox exists, go and get a history lesson in SEO. Those who have been around long enough know exactly what the sandbox was and that google stopped using it.

What those who think the sandbox is, is just that drop in ranking after the new content gets after that initial QDF boost it gets. That is NOT the sandbox.

If your rankings stay low after that initial QDF boost, then you have a crap site, with crap SEO or you are just in a niche that is very competitive. That is NOT the sandbox!

I have said before, that the reason that I love the Warrior Forum, is that I want all my compeitors to come here to get their SEO advice. I wish they would spend more time blaming myths for their problems.

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Biggy Fat

15 years ago

You know, come to think about it, I can't prove that it DOES exist, and no one can prove that it DOESN'T exist, so I guess we're all wrong haha. Let the debate continue.

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Latsyrc

15 years ago

I am concerned about 3 of my websites that not been in the top 1000 for over 2 months. I am fairly new to this game, so I am not sure what is going on. They were in positions 3-4 for several months before this happened. I was under the impression that the Google dance only lasts a couple of weeks. My sites did come back for 2 days and disappeared. My site has not been deindexed and it is not a spam or MFA site. No changes really to SEO either. Sorry if my post is annoying, I would just like to know what is going on since they were money makers.

ETA: Not talking about my blogs in my siggie either.

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Once and for all: THERE IS NO SANDBOX!

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