Spying on competition???

chrisc58

16 years ago

Hi there,

I would also be interested in how this works and how to use it.

Thanks

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meadow.c

16 years ago

I think when you are working on a niche or investigating one. You can see, who are on top of results and what keywords they using. What makes them on to come up on top like from which sites/blogs they have back links etc.

Thanks
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dburk

16 years ago

Hi serjogins,

While you can use these tools for organic SEO, they are most useful for PPC advertisers. Much of the information relates to the keywords and how much each advertiser is spending on them.

Some tools will even show you the ad text for competitor's top performing ads.

A keyword may seem expensive while in actuality the ROI for the keyword determines how expensive it is. Would you rather have a keyword that cost $0.10 with a ROI of 5% or a keyword that cost $3.00 with an ROI of 250%? If you chose the former over the latter, you need to rethink what you are doing.

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serjogins

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi serjogins,

While you can use these tools for organic SEO, they are most useful for PPC advertisers. Much of the information relates to the keywords and how much each advertiser is spending on them.

Some tools will even show you the ad text for competitor's top performing ads.

A keyword may seem expensive while in actuality the ROI for the keyword determines how expensive it is. Would you rather have a keyword that cost $0.10 with a ROI of 5% or a keyword that cost $3.00 with an ROI of 250%? If you chose the former over the latter, you need to rethink what you are doing.

Yes, I understand all that, I have used the software, but apart from the fact that it showed me that I cannot compete with the big guys, it wasn't much help, so... maybe you guys can give me some advice on how to use this information...?

Thanks
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dburk

16 years ago

Hi serjogins,

Well you could use it to see where the "big guys" are and then you'll know where you need to avoid being. Or, you could study the "big guys" methods and use them on the medium or little guys.

How do you know you can't compete with the big guys if you don't try. Most of them started out as little guys and grew because they were smart, not because they were big. Big doesn't make you smart, but smart may make you big.

Thanks
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serjogins

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi serjogins,

Well you could use it to see where the "big guys" are and then you'll know where you need to avoid being. Or, you could study the "big guys" methods and use them on the medium or little guys.

How do you know you can't compete with the big guys if you don't try. Most of them started out as little guys and grew because they were smart, not because they were big. Big doesn't make you smart, but smart may make you big.

I know cause I tried, ended up waisting money and time. Basically I heard about using the info from these tools for testing a niche, but I'm not sure how it is done

Thanks
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dburk 16 years ago

Hi serjogins,

These tools give you insight into what your competitor is doing. You can see which keywords they are using and the wording of their ads. You can see how much they are spending (at least estimates). This can be very useful if you are competing with them, but you're right, it's not very useful if you are not competing with them.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the reason you wasted time and money is that you didn't learn why your time and money turned out to be a waste. I'm going to guess that it was because you couldn't tell which keywords were profitable and at what bid price they would make a profit.

At times like these it's good to remember folks like Thomas Edison. He tested over 2000 elements for the filament that finally worked in the light bulb. If your first effort failed, then figure out why it failed and try again after you have made improvements.

Now I can't reference Edison without mentioning some of my favorite quotes by him. Here are a few relevant ones:

"I readily absorb ideas from every source, frequently starting where the last person left off."

"Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration. Accordingly, a 'genius' is often merely a talented person who has done all of his or her homework."

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

"The first requisite for success is to develop the ability to focus and apply your mental and physical energies to the problem at hand - without growing weary. Because such thinking is often difficult, there seems to be no limit to which some people will go to avoid the effort and labor that is associated with it...."
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- serjogins 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dburk
  
  I'm going to guess that it was because you couldn't tell which keywords were profitable and at what bid price they would make a profit.
  
  So how do I do that?
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  dburk 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by serjogins
  
  So how do I do that?
  
  Hi serjogins,
  
  You use a tracking program or service that tracks costs and conversions down to the keyword level on each individual click.
  
  As I'm sure you are already aware, we call the cost of a click CPC and earnings per click EPC. When you have enough clicks and conversions to determine your EPC then you know that is the maximum you can bid without losing money.
  
  Obviously, you won't know what your EPC is when you launch a new campaign, so you are likely to lose some money while you gather this critical data. If you plan for this initial investment period you are certain to make a profit given enough time. Of course, this assumes you have a commercially viable offer to begin with.
  
  Thanks
  
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IowaGal

16 years ago

Originally Posted by serjogins

Hi, I have heard a lot about spying on competition, but I'not sure how to use that information. I used Spyfu and Affiliate Elite to get the competition keywords, but I have no idea how to use that information, because generally what I get are these websites that generate thousands and thousands of clicks per day usually using some very broad and expensive keyowords which I have no chanse of competing with anyway, or targeted but expensive keywords that I have still no chanse of competing with. So here are my 3 questions:
1) What for do you use spying on competition? (just spying, market testing, etc..?)
2) What are you looking for when you spy?
3) How do you use the information that you find?

Really hope to learn a lesson here

)

Cheers

P.S Maybe some1 can recommend a great blog or free resource website on this topic

First I head over to Google and enter in a very broad phrase related to the website that I'm working on. I use the top three listings and then head over to https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal so that I can gather competitor's Keywords. This gets me a nice large list of words to consider.

Once I have the list, I run it through Wordtracker to see which of these words have the most traffic and the least amount of competition.

I then cherry-pick these keywords to see which ones might work for a website.

- Kristine

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serjogins

16 years ago

Thanks IowaGal! Do you use it for SEO or for PPC advertising?

Thanks
1 reply

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IowaGal 16 years ago

Originally Posted by serjogins

Thanks IowaGal! Do you use it for SEO or for PPC advertising?

You're welcome.

I actually use that method for SEO purposes.

For PPC I use a different method which is similar but the process is a little different.

- Kristine
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serjogins

16 years ago

Kristine, Could you explain your process for PPC as I intend to use spying for PPC.

Thanks
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freetraff

16 years ago

This is absolutely ethical to spy on your competition (unless you are doing something illegal like breaking into the hosting of your competition).

Lots of people are doing it.

Lots of marketers create tools that help to spy on your competition.

A fresh tool was recently released by famous Brad Callen - watch this video where he shows how this tool works.

If famous gurus who think about their reputation do that, you can do the same.

Thanks
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RebeccaL

16 years ago

Originally Posted by freetraff

This is absolutely ethical to spy on your competition (unless you are doing something illegal like breaking into the hosting of your competition).

Lots of people are doing it.

Lots of marketers create tools that help to spy on your competition.

A fresh tool was recently released by famous Brad Callen - watch this video where he shows how this tool works.

If famous gurus who think about their reputation do that, you can do the same.

I know alot of people in the blackhat game and the general consensus is that that tool is black hat and unethical in the eyes of search engines. I would not touch it if you care about your sites.

I also think this thread seems sus. A new-ish person asking about something relating to a new product, then another new-ish person recommending it (Shorwood, also conveniently recommending another product by the same seller).

*red flag*

Thanks
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IowaGal

16 years ago

Originally Posted by RebeccaL

I also think this thread seems sus. A new-ish person asking about something relating to a new product, then another new-ish person recommending it (Shorwood, also conveniently recommending another product by the same seller).

*red flag*

I'm almost embarrassed to ask but what is "sus"? That's the first time I've ever seen that term used.

I know a lot of things but that isn't one of 'em.

- Kristine

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dburk

16 years ago

Hi Kristine,

I can't speak for RebeccaL, but I took "sus" to be short for "suspect" or "suspicious". And... after she pointed it out, I admit it does look a little "sus" to me as well. Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. :confused:

Thanks
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IowaGal

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Kristine,

I can't speak for RebeccaL, but I took "sus" to be short for "suspect" or "suspicious". And... after she pointed it out, I admit it does look a little "sus" to me as well. Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. :confused:

Thanks Don - that makes sense to me.

Don't worry about being cynical - I know that as I've gotten older I tend to have less and less patience in a lot of areas

Thanks

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IowaGal 16 years ago

Originally Posted by serjogins

Kristine, Could you explain your process for PPC as I intend to use spying for PPC.

I actually use tools such as Keyword Research Tool & Keyword Tracking | Keywordspy.com and SpyFu together to see what keywords are currently being bid on by the competition.

I'll also keep tabs on the websites that seem to be consistent in AdWords since those that stick around are usually the ones that are most successful.

I do check out the site to see what the landing page looks like but NEVER click on their ads - to me that's unethical - every time you click to check someone out you cost them money - and I wouldn't want someone to do it to me.

I take note of what keywords they use on their landing page, what other pages are linking to and from that page and if they're using an opt-in form or another method such as linking to an affiliate site and such.

freetraffic brings up a great point - I would absolutely check out that tool by Brad Callen as that will save you a heck of a lot of time.

Hope that helps - Kristine
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- shorwood 16 years ago
  
  I personally use Affiliate Elite and PPC Web Spy. I don't bother with monthly fee tools like SpyFu. When I use these tools, I don't generally look at what the big companies are doing, as they have millions of dollars to spend. I look for the little/medium guys that are succeeding, and I copy them. I find the people that are doing something as close to what I am doing as I can, and I copy them, as they are succeeding with likely the same resources as me.
  
  Once I am making quite a bit of money, I then take a look at some slightly bigger guys and follow their strategies, then look for bigger guys, etc. You cannot compete with the big guys right off the start. You have to work your way up. You aren't a professional the first time you do it.
  
  That is how I use these tools, and it has worked well for me. I hope it helps you. Good luck!
  
  Thanks
  
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serjogins

16 years ago

thanks shorewood! How do you pick out the little/medium guys?

Thanks

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shorwood

16 years ago

You're welcome!

First I do a search for the main keyword related to my niche. Then I check out the advertisers for that keyword. Obviously I ignore ones that I know are huge companies that I could never compete with. (those ones are kind of obvious).

When I am looking at the competition, I look for a few things:

1. Are they using a simple squeeze page? Big companies do not use squeeze pages, and if they do they are generally very fancy with a lot of graphics and a fancy web design. I look for ones with a simple template and not a really fancy web design or a lot of fancy graphics. The little/medium guys do not put a lot of money into creating insane and pretty squeeze pages, so the simple ones are almost for sure guys in the same or similar situation as you, so they would be good people to copy.

2. Blogs. Big guys don't use blogs with PPC, but I have seen some of the little/medium guys use blogs instead of websites to promote/sell their products or services. If you find a blog, they are almost certainly a little/medium guy that you can copy successfully and compete with.

You can generally tell when looking at their webpage if they are someone you can compete with. Then you look for slightly more complicated and often prettier websites as your campaign becomes more and more profitable. Eventually you can compete with the big guys!

Again, Good luck!

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shorwood

16 years ago

I wasn't recommending his products. serjogins asked what tools we used, so I told him what I personally used. I did not tell anyone that they should use these tools. And yes, I did mention two products from the same seller, but maybe that is because he is a talented marketer and makes the best software? Also, one of them is free, and does the same as many paid ones, so it is a very useful tool.

And yes, it is considered black hat to spy on your competition. Tools like Affiliate Elite, Web PPC Spy, SpyFu, and Keyword Spy are blackhat, but the search engines cannot tell if you are using them, and the search engines will not do anything to you. The reason they are considered black hat is because they are used to take advantage of all the work your competition has previously done. It has nothing to do with the search engines, it has to do with your competition.

And why does someone recommending a product seem sus?

Thanks

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glofish

16 years ago

I'm a Mac user, so link-assistant tools are great. I also use web-based SpyFu.

Thanks

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