NEWS - Google Switching Over To Machine Learning | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

14 years ago

Is Amit Singhal still at Google? I know he does not like the whole "Terminator machines" . He did not say that phrase that is just my interpenetration. And he heads the core ranking team. At least I think he still does.

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SEO Genius 14 years ago

It seems that he is still at Google according to his site.

I think Amit did not like machine learning as it's hard to explain and ascertain why a particular search result ranks more highly than another result for a given query.

The explanantions for the results can be elusive/black boxes. It is harder to tweak and munipulate.

Rules based scoring allows for more control over search results.

Machine learning has come a long way and the proof is in the pudding - Google cannot beat Yandex.
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- Eduard 14 years ago
  
  Well, the future of ranking on Google sounds exciting. I just hope they find indicators of quality content that are hard to fake. Because at this point, likes and other stuff like that seem pretty fake-able or buy-able to me.
  
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RichBeck

14 years ago

Interesting post. This makes it even more important to build a "real" business instead of one based on "fads or loopholes."

The real question is where this leaves SEO.... Are more "traditional" SEO strategies such as link building diminished or even replaced by a much greater focus on "quality" content? It seems the SEO industry would be turned upside down....

Rich

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by RichBeck

Interesting post. This makes it even more important to build a "real" business instead of one based on "fads or loopholes."

The real question is where this leaves SEO.... Are more "traditional" SEO strategies such as link building diminished or even replaced by a much greater focus on "quality" content? It seems the SEO industry would be turned upside down....

Rich

This is my point exactly.

I sense a creeping panic running through every internet marketing guru out there as they are well aware of this. All the seo companies (smart ones) are also reassessing their strategies as we speak.

If you're in this for the long term then it matters but if you're just having a go then there are lots of systems that you can still make good money online.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

I sense a creeping panic running through every internet marketing guru out there as they are well aware of this.

Most gurus build their business around people, not search engines. You'd be surprised how much Google doesn't make a difference when you do that. If SEO as we know it stopped working tomorrow, most of them wouldn't even notice, let alone panic.

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by creature

Unless your traffic is derived mainly from Google searches, which you have boosted mainly through backlinks from thousands of crappy sites or blog posts...

My point exactly

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Most gurus build their business around people, not search engines. You'd be surprised how much Google doesn't make a difference when you do that. If SEO as we know it stopped working tomorrow, most of them wouldn't even notice, let alone panic.

I agree with you man. Yeah, most of the gurus wouldn't notice and even if they did then they've already got enough momentum to recover from any damages...

I guess, the reason why I bought this up is because most of thoses guru's certainly aren't going to as most of their business is built on the teaching of building backlinks as the backbone of their SEO. We wouldn't want to "scare" our loyal followers now do we? Well not until we've built another ship to jump to... Sorry, for my cynicism. This is only for you if the shoe fits.

If anything, this will be great for the IM community as - hopefully - our profession will get a lot more respect if there are more quality sites out there as opposed to spammy ones.

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nm5419

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

This is my point exactly.

I sense a creeping panic running through every internet marketing guru out there as they are well aware of this. All the seo companies (smart ones) are also reassessing their strategies as we speak.

They're panicking alright, but not because of Yandex. It's because of Google moving referral data into a pay-to-view model.

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SEO Genius 14 years ago

Originally Posted by nm5419

They're panicking alright, but not because of Yandex. It's because of Google moving referral data into a pay-to-view model.

And from what I understand driving everyone to Google Plus etc...

C'mon guys - wake up and smell the coffee!
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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

It's really news - it's been in progress for several years now.

<psst> This is posted in the wrong forum

@Rich...it's too complex to go into in a single post. For now, continue backlinking because it is important and it will ALWAYS have a role in both SEO and organic traffic generation.

More importantly, be careful who you listen to in forums - you tend to hear a lot of parroted, mis-interpreted information. You'll shoot yourself in the foot if you act prematurely on it.

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

It's really news - it's been in progress for several years now.

<psst> This is posted in the wrong forum

@Rich...it's too complex to go into in a single post. For now, continue backlinking because it is important and it will ALWAYS have a role in both SEO and organic traffic generation.

More importantly, be careful who you listen to in forums - you tend to hear a lot of parroted, mis-interpreted information. You'll shoot yourself in the foot if you act prematurely on it.

Yes, you are right BIG Mike. It is a complex discussion and is probably in the wrong forum. And yes backlinking will still play a part but it's role will diminish dramatically.

And yes you are right, there is a lot of mis-information floating around. And yes, Google has been working on this for a few years now.

And I think it's only fair that newbies hear about this now so they can plan for the long term...If anything, this will just encourage them to place more emphasis on value

Technology always changes a lot faster then we anticipate and when this does happen there will be a great reckoning in the IM world.

Just wanting to create awareness so we can all put in contingency plans now. I don't think we can act too prematurely on this one as Google is already valuing sites with social relevance - especially with their Google Plus One.

I say "only the paranoid survive in business"

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RichBeck

14 years ago

Big Mike,

I agree... I would not abandon those "tried and true" methods until there is solid evidence Google has changed.... But, even then, I am sure some smart and industrious people will figure ways to "stack the deck" in their favor.....

Rich

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Mary Wilhite

14 years ago

I wonder if this is starting already or it's still for the far away future?

By the way, you mentioned that yandex is beating up Google in russia
that's interesting to hear since G is still the biggest one around.

What's the market share between Yandex and Google in Russia?

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mary Wilhite

I wonder if this is starting already or it's still for the far away future?

By the way, you mentioned that yandex is beating up Google in russia
that's interesting to hear since G is still the biggest one around.

What's the market share between Yandex and Google in Russia?

In Russia, I think it's 60% to 70% plus market share, is Yandex.

The last Panda update was an attempt from Google with machine learning, and see how that shook everyone?

Wait till they release the "beast".

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GuerrillaIM

14 years ago

Can you explain to me how "machine learning" differs from using an "algorithm".

I can't see how one can be separated from the other. If they start taking more factors into consideration then they still will use an algorithm to interpret the data.

The factors Google look at have always been changing. I can't see what you have said that is different from what Google already do.

Top marks for trying to drum up a little controversy but I won't be throwing in the towel just yet.

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

Can you explain to me how "machine learning" differs from using an "algorithm".

I can't see how one can be separated from the other. If they start taking more factors into consideration then they still will use an algorithm to interpret the data.

The factors Google look at have always been changing. I can't see what you have said that is different from what Google already do.

Top marks for trying to drum up a little controversy but I won't be throwing in the towel just yet.

I think this video might be able to explain it better then me:

seomoz.org/blog/smx-advanced-andy-atkins-kruger-talks-international-seo-and-yandex-whiteboard-friday

Sorry, just add www before that link as I cant use links in my posts yet.

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dv8domainsDotCom

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

Can you explain to me how "machine learning" differs from using an "algorithm".

I can't see how one can be separated from the other. If they start taking more factors into consideration then they still will use an algorithm to interpret the data.

The factors Google look at have always been changing. I can't see what you have said that is different from what Google already do.

Top marks for trying to drum up a little controversy but I won't be throwing in the towel just yet.

Somewhat of an example is given in the wiki article on Yandex: a search on "Gone with the Wind" will yield a major amount of Movie, Book (and general website) results. Machine Learning Allows the Engine to "Learn" that the majority of searchers seem to lean towards "Movie" results, rather than 'Book' or 'General websites' (even if they do not specify "movie" in the search).

-- Fun factors for future-SEO concerns might be: "HOW" to manipulate this (and yes, what any SEO does is, at it's core, manipulation)
-- How are these categories determined
-- How is weighting assigned for specific phrases?
-- Things like that.

So now to rank for phrase like "Gone with the wind", our "mental algorithm" tells us the basics: Certain % of keyword mention, certain % of strong/em tags, specific usages of H1/H2/H3 (etc etc), and then begin developing an offsite back-linking strategy to anchor-target to that phrase.

With machine learning, there could be any number of other variables and subtleties that the machine "learns" about a particular search, it's results, and how the visitor perceives the usefulness of those results by awarding a "click-through" to a given page. In a sense, it 'does' become part of an algorithm, but only for a specific search and/or category of site (and would not affect "non-learned" search results that are derived from some general algorithm.

Higher level of adaptability that is focused on categorical relevance of a given word/phrase in the context of the searcher, time period, and search term.

Doesn't mean that it cannot be studied, learned, and exploited. Time will tell.

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Derek S

14 years ago

well my sites are all ranked #1 on both Yandex and Google, so bring it on I guess. I cant see Yandex even being a blimp on googles radar.

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creature

14 years ago

I knew this would be inevitable after IBMs Cleo beat human champions at Jeopardy.

I for one heartily welcome such a change - this should really put a dent in the overwhelming amount of pure garbage being added to the web every day because of "dominate Google with no effort" schemes based upon buying backlinks, scraping content, etc.

If the competition winners actually become based upon "who has the better (more relevant and useful) unique content" in any given niche, I say "well done, Google".

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guitarjosh

14 years ago

All you need to know about it: Google Machine Learning to Trump Backlinks? | User vs Links

(watch the vid)

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SEO Genius 14 years ago

Originally Posted by guitarjosh

All you need to know about it: Google Machine Learning to Trump Backlinks? | User vs Links

(watch the vid)

Thanks guitarjosh
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mojojuju

14 years ago

I'd be shocked to learn that Google doesn't already use machine learning to a large extent when determining how sites rank in their search results.

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Andyhenry

14 years ago

Yet another false reason to panic.

I'm going to completely ignore all of this and do what I always do - test what works and keep doing that.

I've never had any adverse effects from any Google updates so I don't care what they change - at the end of the day they still want to find useful relevant results that are what their searchers were looking for.

Nothing really changes.

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nothing to see here.

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creature 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Yet another false reason to panic.
Nothing really changes.

Unless your traffic is derived mainly from Google searches, which you have boosted mainly through backlinks from thousands of crappy sites or blog posts...
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wowcolombia1

14 years ago

Well i think this is awesome because there well be no more backlink problem...But i think there can be more competition of people putting good content...But this sounds interesting talk more about this please

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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Hey mister moderator,

Thanks for changing this thread over to the right forum

I posted this in the main forum because I wanted newbies to see this post. Most of them won't bother to come over to this forum as they are n't aware of how this is going to affect their business in the long run - especially with the "change in tide" coming soon.

I just don't want to see the further exploition of newbies being fed this constant drible that backlinking is KING when it is papable that things are going to change very SOON!

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MikeFriedman

14 years ago

None of this is new, and frankly is a little suspicious coming from someone pimping a viral marketing product (no SEO needed) in their signature.

Yandex has been beating Google in market share in Russia for quite awhile.

One thing that you completely ignored in your post is that the machine learning aspect of their search engine has nothing to do with why they are beating Google. In fact, your post is rather misleading in that it would lead a reader to believe that the machine learning capability of Yandex's search engine is the reason they are beating Google in Russian. That is far from the truth.

They were beating Google before they ever launched it.

In fact they did not launch MatrixNet (their machine learning technology) until 2009.

Google's engine previously had serious struggles with the Russian language because the language is a rather complex mess. Google has worked to correct these early mistakes, but it was already too late.

Yandex did not have these issues, were able to secure the top market share in their homeland, and haven't looked back.

Yandex is far from becoming anywhere near as popular as Google though worldwide. They are currently the 8th or 9th most popular search engine I believe. Much like the SERPs, anything past the top 3 is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

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MikeFriedman 14 years ago

Oh and one other thing, before you try telling us that the sky is falling, you should actually try using Yandex. I'll bet that you haven't.

Run 50 popular searches in Yandex. Then run the same 50 popular searches in Google. I bet you will be pretty surprised at how similar the results are, especially near the top.
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SEO Genius

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

None of this is new, and frankly is a little suspicious coming from someone pimping a viral marketing product (no SEO needed) in their signature.

Yandex has been beating Google in market share in Russia for quite awhile.

One thing that you completely ignored in your post is that the machine learning aspect of their search engine has nothing to do with why they are beating Google. In fact, your post is rather misleading in that it would lead a reader to believe that the machine learning capability of Yandex's search engine is the reason they are beating Google in Russian. That is far from the truth.

They were beating Google before they ever launched it.

In fact they did not launch MatrixNet (their machine learning technology) until 2009.

Google's engine previously had serious struggles with the Russian language because the language is a rather complex mess. Google has worked to correct these early mistakes, but it was already too late.

Yandex did not have these issues, were able to secure the top market share in their homeland, and haven't looked back.

Yandex is far from becoming anywhere near as popular as Google though worldwide. They are currently the 8th or 9th most popular search engine I believe. Much like the SERPs, anything past the top 3 is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

You are right on all points MikeFriedman. And just to reassure you of my motives - I have taken the "NO SEO" out of my signature

I'm actually not advocating Yandex. I couldn't care less for Yandex.

My point was simply that there are huge changes around the corner and it seems to me that there is a huge elephant in the room that no-one is willing to discuss.

I still do backlinking for my sites and clients as well and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

But I've also been around long enough to know that change is inevitable and that change is happening as we speak.

The panda update is tiny compared to the massive shift in how we will be doing SEO soon.

Okay, maybe this message is a little premature but I can't help thinking that I really need to re-evaluate my business approach when there are over 10,000 engineers working on this thing.

If you had told me that they were just starting now then I would breathe easier but they have been working on this for 3 years now, which means the due date is sooner then later.

And when it does change - assuming that it will be soon, many families will be affected by this.

Let's just hope I'm wrong. But if I am right, then you can thank me later

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

My point was simply that there are huge changes around the corner and it seems to me that there is a huge elephant in the room that no-one is willing to discuss.

This is the major flaw of your point.

A) that it is around the corner
B) that only you are wise enough to be considering these things.

Google is the leader with search engines in the markets they really care about (except China). They do everything incrementally. Panda and their reviewer ratings are the beginning of those changes BUT sorry no - They are not going to just throw a switch and change overnight , round the corner or whatever you want to call it. This is a real company with shareholders competitors and sensible business practices with testing phases and protocols.

Look at social signals. A year ago people were doing the same thing you are doing now - jumping up and down and figuring that twitter and Facebook were going to force Google to abandon what they used. What have we seen - incremental changes. A year from now Social signals will be a bit more and then a little more. Rather than SEOs burying their heads like Ostriches like you claim we are already adopting

So this chicken little theatrics of running around claiming everything is about to change is false and so is the idea that all SEOs besides yourself are so in terror that they don't want to talk about it is just more of the same.

So stop with all the "creeping panic among gurus" nonsense and all the SEO companies are "reassessing their strategies" foolishness. Tomorrow every SEO company including my own isgoing to get to working on the algo that Google has NOW and still will have in some similar form early next year and a year from now. As Google changes we will also incrementally. We will not and should not reassess what we are doing now based on what might be in three years. Our customers still have businesses to rank NOW with families to feed NOW and mortgage payments to me made NOW.

IF you don't understand this then you shouldn't be speaking for SEOs or SEO companies. Not to put down Russian but Google has bigger fish to fry. If Google was going to make a sudden change the gamble would not be based on beating Yandex it would be beating Baidu. Google will tweak and add with Panda, reviewers and social signals more and more. It will not be a sky is falling overnight change.

Switch to decaf.

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MikeFriedman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

You are right on all points MikeFriedman.

Yes, I know.

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

And just to reassure you of my motives - I have taken the "NO SEO" out of my signature

You still have the same offer in your signature. Just because it no longer says "NO SEO" doesn't hide the fact that it is blatantly obvious what you are trying to do here.

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

My point was simply that there are huge changes around the corner and it seems to me that there is a huge elephant in the room that no-one is willing to discuss.

Hardly around the corner, and Google makes "huge" changes all the time. That is nothing new. There was May Day, Caffeine, Panda... and an average of 400 algorithm tweaks a year.

You also completely ignored Yukon's point that a machine learning system is still ultimately controlled through the setting of its parameters by people.

Good luck with your WSO. So far the prelaunch hype looks like it is failing.

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tebor79

14 years ago

Since backlinking and SEO is dead I'll just click the link in your sig that will get me $2mil in 1 month with no SEO required.

Problem Solved!

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

Lol, I'm willing to bet most people don't even know what machine learning is.

Let the paranoia begin.

I worked off-line for 10 years coding manufacturing machines that involved machine learning.

The simplest way to explain machine learning is, you have a minimum & maximum value (control points).

If the min/max value is reached the software compensates to bring the values back into a controlled area.

Humans set & control the min. & max. values in the software, which is an algorithm.

In other words, nothing is changing, other than human edited algoritham changes which have been happening 24/7 365 since Google first started up.

Carry on, nothing to see here...

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MaverickUK

14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Lol, I'm willing to bet most people don't even know what machine learning is.

Let the paranoia begin.

I worked off-line for 10 years coding manufacturing machines that involved machine learning.

The simplest way to explain machine learning is, you have a minimum & maximum value (control points).

If the minimum value is reached the software compensates to bring the values back into a controlled area.

Humans set & control the min. & max. values in the software, which is an algorithm.

In other words, nothing is changing, other than human edited algoritham changes which have been happening 24/7 365 since Google first started up.

Carry on, nothing to see here...

Words of wisdom right here. People always assume change is bad, however this could well mean those of us making quality content will rule the roost and these little buggers ranking at the top with autoblog crap and content that looks like it was written like a cave man, will take a hit.

As long as quality, informative content rules, I'm all for it. Let a machine learn all it wants and reward my plentifully.

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

This why I have money invested in Baidu [BIDU] stock.

The China government created a monopoly on China search, as long as this continues I'll keep buying BIDU stock.

With Baidu their search doesn't have to be good, in fact their search could suck, thanks to their monopoly & the distrust of Google by China Gov. Which is funny all by itself, considering both China Gov. & Google are so similar (do as I say, not as I do).

I've researched Yandex about six months ago, they have no Gov. monopoly so I'll never invest any money. As a search engine I think they are to isolated to take on Google, doesn't matter If they have a better product or not, they missed the boat & didn't scale up 10 years ago.

Can things change with Yandex scaling up? Sure things can change in the future, but unless they have some heavy financial backing I doubt their much of a threat to Google anytime soon.

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Oranges

14 years ago

SEO Genius?:rolleyes:
Isn't the current G! algo. part of a machine?

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michael scott

14 years ago

Another attempt at hyping social signals. Panda update being one step closer to killing SEO? All my sites actually got a boost after the recent panda. As a matter of fact, I found new types of links and strategies that google loves since Panda.

I remember when Google instant first came out. SO MANY people claiming SEO is dead!

This is simply the concept of evolution taking place. The strong gets stronger, and the weak get filtered out. More and more newbs who try IM are failing faster, while the ones who learn to adapt and change are making a killing.

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by michael scott

This is simply the concept of evolution taking place. The strong gets stronger, and the weak get filtered out. More and more newbs who try IM are failing faster, while the ones who learn to adapt and change are making a killing.

That pretty much sums it up.

The daily paranoia tripping is targeting folks that are new to seo.

Everyone else that knows better is thinking "Yea, whatever"!

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ankushkohli

14 years ago

I don't know whether Google will use machine learning or not but I'm sure, soon or later, it'll not be easy to rank the website through SEO efforts.

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g_noe

14 years ago

Seo gurus would be out of job?
Don't think so.

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36burrows

14 years ago

As if social media can't be manipulated just like backlinks?

If anything, it's easier to get Facebook likes over backlinks.

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JSProjects 14 years ago

Originally Posted by 36burrows

As if social media can't be manipulated just like backlinks?

If anything, it's easier to get Facebook likes over backlinks.

I was thinking the same thing. If likes, +1's, whatever, begin to gain more weight then that's fine by me.
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agmantz

14 years ago

Very interesting information about Yandex.

But I still believe the present SEO techniques is still in play whatever changes may take place just continue building quality content and links.

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mojojuju

14 years ago

OMG THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER!!!

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dburk

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

This is my point exactly.

I sense a creeping panic running through every internet marketing guru out there as they are well aware of this. All the seo companies (smart ones) are also reassessing their strategies as we speak.

If you're in this for the long term then it matters but if you're just having a go then there are lots of systems that you can still make good money online.

Originally Posted by SEO Genius

In Russia, I think it's 60% to 70% plus market share, is Yandex.

The last Panda update was an attempt from Google with machine learning, and see how that shook everyone?

Wait till they release the "beast".

Originally Posted by mojojuju

OMG THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER!!!

LOL, you gotta love these "chicken little" posts.

Almost always followed by a WSO to survive the "sky is falling" catastrophe. :rolleyes: