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Googles Next Slap Coming - But Ist It REALLY A Slap?

by Enfusia
85 replies
  • SEO
    • |
Hi,
We all know the blog link networks are getting de-indexed or already are. But was that really a slap?

Google's next BIG change is coming really fast. But is that a slap?

Hear me out.

First lets set the ground rules:
1. Google is not the Government, it's a business.
2. Marketers and guys with huge PPC spends on adwords are not Google's customers.
3. Google's customers are the searchers. Because they know if they have enough searchers (eyeballs with wallets) you will trip all over yourself getting as many of those eyeballs on your pages looking at your stuff as possible.
4. Google does not care about the marketer, nor should it. Google cares about the searcher and their experience, end of story.

So, pretend you're Google for a moment. And you have a bunch a little hair brained Nintendo playin, reddit surfin marketers gaming your BUSINESS by putting up crap spun content that pollutes your serps with junk that ticks off your customers.

They then load this crappy spun spam with links to push crappy thinly built affiliate sites up your serps so that the top of your serps no longer give your customer what they want.

If you were Google and this was happening what would you do. You would de-index that crap out of your serps and make your customers happy.

Like it, don't like it, if you were Google you would do it wouldn't you? Be honest!

Google's new slap is on it's way.

Again in this scenario you're Google.

The marketers can't be beat just by spankin their links. These guys are like a swarm of Bee's, they just keep coming until they find a weak spot and pow, they all run in and sting that spot like crazy.

So, these marketers are really good at SEO. They are on page maniacs. They piss meta tags and fart EMD's.

Now remember your Google and these guys are taking up nearly every single niche with their marketing and affiliate sites. These sites (the majority) don't have your adsense ads on them, so they make you no money and you're a business your job is to make money.

What do you do?

You adjust your content algorithm to deliver what the searcher (your customer) wants but that defeats these pesky marketers.

You do this with a new algo that does not rely on the exact keyword typed in but instead relies on the cumulative meaning of the page and other factors.

(in case you missed it re-read the underlined sentence's above 5 times, you now know the big change that's coming).

If you spend a lot of time in KW research (as you should) you've seen it. You know what I'm talking about. Stuffs ranking that makes you look at it and go "What the?"
You are seeing it more and more. You may even see stuff outranking some of your younger not so stable sites that stops you in your tracks cause you can't figure out why this would be above your site if the old rules were still in place.

This is the tip of the iceberg of what lies ahead.

But is it really a slap?

If you're Google, no it's just business.

Don't worry too much. If you're Google you still have to rely on a very few things to produce relevant serps.
1. Quality relevant content (the above is just a new way of determining relevance is all).
2. Social proof in the form of social signals.
3. Back links (votes, basically another form of social proof).

Here's my advice and you can take it or leave it (if you don't know me you'll likely leave it).

Immediately stop spamming the internet by running to buy every new wiki assassin blaster, or blog comment rocket spam blaster or whatever the latest spam blaster WSO is.

I did a test of 20 pages all for keywords that should rank pretty easy I put the first word of each title into a hat and pulled ten for this group and ten for that.

I ranked them all using the same exact links 25 auto approved high on page pr with 20 or less obls per page.

Group A I posted all the links buy hand and made relevant content posts.
Group B I used a super popular blog blaster software that was a big WSO here on the WF.

Results:
With the hand posted sites every single one of the pages is on page one of G with 5 in the top 5 (remember, these were easy pages to rank).

With the blog blaster group using the exact same links not one is on page 1 and most are not even on page 2.

My conclusion (although I cannot prove it but have suspected it for a while now) is that Google can identify the footprint some how of our blasting softwares? I know that sounds weird so I asked a friend who is Symfony certified who is an avid developer of Git and a pretty slick hacker on the weekends if this was possible or do I need an adjustment to my brain housing group resolution settings? (sorry, I'm a former Marine turned SEO Geek).
He said it is entirely possible and more than likely probable.

So, to wrap this up:

Google's not slapping you, they don't even care about you. They are making business decisions. We the marketers have kicked our own butts spamming the internet.

The sad, sad part is; when we need more link juice or whatever we then jump onto the NEXT spammy crappy blastomatic time bomb that the OTHER marketers sell us with our own fear.

For all our sakes could we please just stop.
Stop buying all the blastomatic spam shooters, stop buying all the new and improved auto bloggers now renamed as X because if they told you they were just the same crap with different name you wouldn't give them your money

Then, just quit spamming the internet, your not going to last long..

Thank you very much for reading.

Patrick
#coming #googles #slap
  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    best way is to just focus on great content and use link building methods such as guest posting
    articles, social bookmarking and social media and blog comments

    these are long term methods

    i think and agree that link building software is becoming more and more risky as google tweak and improve there algo

    paul
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  • Profile picture of the author zaco
    LOL @ 2. Marketers and guys with huge PPC spends on adwords are not Google's customers.

    Sorry but you are giving Google too much credit, I know they are a business and they need to make money, alot of users have spammed the web with the spamming / whatever tools they use so I have to agree on that...

    Google fills the first page with ads and you are telling me they don't care about PPC customers? I know they need people to use their services but they have already established that, now its the time where they force their policies on you, they tell you take it or leave it..

    I have done few tests and I can tell you Google cannot tell if the content is quality or no, this is all BS to scare people to write good content, the keyword density they mentioned is BS too, after I thought my website was overly optimized with 24% keyword density, I fixed it and boom! I lost my rank, my other site has the same keyword density and its climbing to the top positions every week...

    Long story short, Google cannot control the quality of the content so they tell you they will value it , you should write quality content for your users not for Google but you could be out ranked by sites that do not offer anything, sad but true.
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by zaco View Post

      LOL @ 2. Marketers and guys with huge PPC spends on adwords are not Google's customers.

      Sorry but you are giving Google too much credit, I know they are a business and they need to make money, alot of users have spammed the web with the spamming / whatever tools they use so I have to agree on that...

      Google fills the first page with ads and you are telling me they don't care about PPC customers? I know they need people to use their services but they have already established that, now its the time where they force their policies on you, they tell you take it or leave it..

      I have done few tests and I can tell you Google cannot tell if the content is quality or no, this is all BS to scare people to write good content, the keyword density they mentioned is BS too, after I thought my website was overly optimized with 24% keyword density, I fixed it and boom! I lost my rank, my other site has the same keyword density and its climbing to the top positions every week...

      Long story short, Google cannot control the quality of the content so they tell you they will value it , you should write quality content for your users not for Google but you could be out ranked by sites that do not offer anything, sad but true.
      You are correct that you can be outranked by junk content, that is true. And I think you are correct in saying that Google's algo's cannot YET determine if it's good or bad.

      But yes, I am telling you that Google's customers are not the adwords advertisers, they are in fact the searcher.

      G knows that if they have millions of people who want to buy stuff, there will ALWAYS be people who want to sell stuff.

      And yes, you are again correct with saying you should write quality for your users (Google's and your customers). But that is precisely the point of my entire page above.

      Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

        But yes, I am telling you that Google's customers are not the adwords advertisers, they are in fact the searcher.

        I agree with everything that you said but this.

        I equate Google to television.

        Google's users are their "audience". Google's advertisers are its "customers".

        But, as in the television industry, the price of advertising is driven by the size of the audience.

        Google puts more focus on its audience than its advertisers -- wisely I might add, because without a loyal audience of users, there will be no advertisers.



        As to your original post, I would like to validate and add something to it.

        I have always felt that good SEO is comprised of two steps:

        1. Doing the onsite optimization right the first time; and

        2. Building links -- creating more ways for people to find your content.


        In the link building game, there are generally -- in my mind -- three types of links:

        1. Links on pages that have a lot of readers, which naturally attract the search engines also;

        2. Links that are seen by search engines and few humans; and

        3. Links that are seen by no people and ignored by the search engines.



        I only attempt to get the first type of links. I want links on pages where humans will find them, and then click through to my pages.

        I feel that the search engines will give more value to the links from pages where humans spend their time. So, I focus first on getting links where I will be exposed to an audience of potential buyers. If I do this right, the search engines will find those links and credit me for them.

        Further, I have always believed that the trick of being Google is to locate and identify patterns, then strengthen or diminish the patterns found.

        The way that we always remain pertinent to Google is to build our onsite factors and inbound links in a way that I would want to see them, if I were Google.

        If the found pattern is a link network, then it can be assumed beyond doubt that those links were developed by marketers, rather than happy users. Therefore, those links would be diminished.

        Identifiable patterns generally indicate SEO shenanigans and can be used as a flag to identify those who are willing to try to manipulate the system.

        When I am building links, I work very hard not to follow any obvious patterns of activity. I seek a more natural or organic approach to link building.

        Instead of building links for search engines, I "follow the audience". And if Google likes my link structure, then they will like my pages in their search results.

        I am very keen to the idea of making the links to my websites not look like they were built by marketers. Instead, I want the links to my websites not to have any discernible patterns that would make me look like a marketer.

        One of the things that I believe strengthens me when I do a campaign is that my content is good, and therefore, some people will link to my content just because they like it. These are folks whom I never met, people whom I cannot reach by design, people who will link to my content, just because they like my content.

        The more people who are outside of my sphere of influence, who decide that my content is worth linking, the more likely that Google will see my linking structure to be different from everyone else out there. Therefore, Google will see me as a quality content webmaster, and not someone who is trying to manipulate the Google algorithm.

        I manipulate their algorithm extraordinarily well, by making myself look like someone who is not trying to manipulate their systems. :p

        You can never blaze your own trail in this world, if you spend your time following the masses.
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        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I agree with everything that you said but this.

          I equate Google to television.

          Google's users are their "audience". Google's advertisers are its "customers".

          But, as in the television industry, the price of advertising is driven by the size of the audience.

          Google puts more focus on its audience than its advertisers -- wisely I might add, because without a loyal audience of users, there will be no advertisers.



          As to your original post, I would like to validate and add something to it.

          I have always felt that good SEO is comprised of two steps:

          1. Doing the onsite optimization right the first time; and

          2. Building links -- creating more ways for people to find your content.


          In the link building game, there are generally -- in my mind -- three types of links:

          1. Links on pages that have a lot of readers, which naturally attract the search engines also;

          2. Links that are seen by search engines and few humans; and

          3. Links that are seen by no people and ignored by the search engines.



          I only attempt to get the first type of links. I want links on pages where humans will find them, and then click through to my pages.

          I feel that the search engines will give more value to the links from pages where humans spend their time. So, I focus first on getting links where I will be exposed to an audience of potential buyers. If I do this right, the search engines will find those links and credit me for them.

          Further, I have always believed that the trick of being Google is to locate and identify patterns, then strengthen or diminish the patterns found.

          The way that we always remain pertinent to Google is to build our onsite factors and inbound links in a way that I would want to see them, if I were Google.

          If the found pattern is a link network, then it can be assumed beyond doubt that those links were developed by marketers, rather than happy users. Therefore, those links would be diminished.

          Identifiable patterns generally indicate SEO shenanigans and can be used as a flag to identify those who are willing to try to manipulate the system.

          When I am building links, I work very hard not to follow any obvious patterns of activity. I seek a more natural or organic approach to link building.

          Instead of building links for search engines, I "follow the audience". And if Google likes my link structure, then they will like my pages in their search results.

          I am very keen to the idea of making the links to my websites not look like they were built by marketers. Instead, I want the links to my websites not to have any discernible patterns that would make me look like a marketer.

          One of the things that I believe strengthens me when I do a campaign is that my content is good, and therefore, some people will link to my content just because they like it. These are folks whom I never met, people whom I cannot reach by design, people who will link to my content, just because they like my content.

          The more people who are outside of my sphere of influence, who decide that my content is worth linking, the more likely that Google will see my linking structure to be different from everyone else out there. Therefore, Google will see me as a quality content webmaster, and not someone who is trying to manipulate the Google algorithm.

          I manipulate their algorithm extraordinarily well, by making myself look like someone who is not trying to manipulate their systems. :p

          You can never blaze your own trail in this world, if you spend your time following the masses.
          I appreciate your comment well spoken.

          I agree that your following statement is best practice: "1. Links on pages that have a lot of readers, which naturally attract the search engines also"

          Thank you for your reply.
          Patrick
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        • Profile picture of the author RnGWriter
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I manipulate their algorithm extraordinarily well, by making myself look like someone who is not trying to manipulate their systems. :p
          If what you are doing could be called manipulation then every form of marketing is manipulative; which of course it is . Google cannot really have a problem with a website marketing itself but as long as it offers something of value to the "audience", the website is simply aces in their books. ( if they had a book where they wrote down all the websites and their rankings).

          As far as the excellent point made by Enfusia, we should try to sum it up and have a slogan going, like "Quality, Not Quantity, Not Spammy".
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          • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
            Originally Posted by RnGWriter View Post

            If what you are doing could be called manipulation then every form of marketing is manipulative; which of course it is . Google cannot really have a problem with a website marketing itself but as long as it offers something of value to the "audience", the website is simply aces in their books. ( if they had a book where they wrote down all the websites and their rankings).

            As far as the excellent point made by Enfusia, we should try to sum it up and have a slogan going, like "Quality, Not Quantity, Not Spammy".
            Yes, as marketers we all manipulate the results in our favor.
            It's the same as manipulating wheat into bread.
            You can make bread that is whole grain and full of quality ingredients that will sustain you and keep you.

            Or you can make crappy white bread, deep fry it put sugar on it and sell it to cops.

            The staff of life or doughnuts the choice is yours!

            Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      Originally Posted by zaco View Post

      Google fills the first page with ads and you are telling me they don't care about PPC customers? I know they need people to use their services but they have already established that, now its the time where they force their policies on you, they tell you take it or leave it..
      Leave it? Maybe for Bing? Google has a big competitor with deep pockets. They have no such luxury you are suggesting. Not at all. Certainly not in 2012.

      I have done few tests and I can tell you Google cannot tell if the content is quality or no, this is all BS to scare people to write good content, the keyword density they mentioned is BS too, after I thought my website was overly optimized with 24% keyword density, I fixed it and boom! I lost my rank, my other site has the same keyword density and its climbing to the top positions every week...
      You forgot one key word - YET
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post



        You forgot one key word - YET
        Correct!

        But we also need to remember social and bounce rates.

        If you content is crap you get no social love and you have a high bounce rate. Which will EVENTUALLY allow others to beat you.

        So, already they do have a very limited and slow way to do it.
        But rest assured they are working on it.

        How do I know that?

        If it was my business I would be.

        Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author Miguelito203
      Originally Posted by zaco View Post

      LOL @ 2. Marketers and guys with huge PPC spends on adwords are not Google's customers.

      Sorry but you are giving Google too much credit, I know they are a business and they need to make money, alot of users have spammed the web with the spamming / whatever tools they use so I have to agree on that...

      Google fills the first page with ads and you are telling me they don't care about PPC customers? I know they need people to use their services but they have already established that, now its the time where they force their policies on you, they tell you take it or leave it..

      I have done few tests and I can tell you Google cannot tell if the content is quality or no, this is all BS to scare people to write good content, the keyword density they mentioned is BS too, after I thought my website was overly optimized with 24% keyword density, I fixed it and boom! I lost my rank, my other site has the same keyword density and its climbing to the top positions every week...

      Long story short, Google cannot control the quality of the content so they tell you they will value it , you should write quality content for your users not for Google but you could be out ranked by sites that do not offer anything, sad but true.
      Actually, getting ranked well in the search engines isn't just about satisfying its algorithm. There's a human aspect to it, too. Google actually has people that work to verify the quality of content that stays atop the search engines.

      Joey
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Miguelito203 View Post

        Actually, getting ranked well in the search engines isn't just about satisfying its algorithm. There's a human aspect to it, too. Google actually has people that work to verify the quality of content that stays atop the search engines.

        Joey
        True they do have human reviewers but I wonder how many because I see some serious garbage that has been in the #2 spot for a year or more and if they reviewed it they would just deindex this thing.

        The site has adults pooping their diapers as a clique. They use a name very similar to one of the big diaper companies. All the other results are for moms buying diapers including Amazon in the top 5. The pictures are quite graphic as well.

        It's been there for over a year. If they reviewed it I would think it would get put elsewhere at the minimum.

        Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Since Google makes changes / modifications / improvements to it's algo more than 100 times per year, that's a lot slapping!

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      Since Google makes changes / modifications / improvements to it's algo more than 100 times per year, that's a lot slapping!

      RoD


      Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

      You are correct that you can be outranked by junk content, that is 973true. And I think you are correct in saying that Google's algo's cannot YET determine if it's good or bad.


      Exactly. Anyone who is still convincing themselves otherwise are going to be in for a rough time. Sooner rather than later too.


      Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

      But yes, I am telling you that Google's customers are not the adwords advertisers, they are in fact the searcher.

      G knows that if they have millions of people who want to buy stuff, there will ALWAYS be people who want to sell stuff.
      This too. If there is no one to click on those ads, they aren't going to bring in much money now are they? Having the reader there to click on them in the first place takes precedence.
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      • Profile picture of the author JEasy
        I'll tell you this, If those advertisers stop spending money then no more Google. They do need searchers to facilitate their business because if they don't have any then advertisers won't spend money. Google will eventually burn itself out trying to keep up with this cycle.
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post


        This too. If there is no one to click on those ads, they aren't going to bring in much money now are they? Having the reader there to click on them in the first place takes precedence.
        I appreciate that you get my point.

        If you sell xyz widgets and I can bring you 1,000 xyz widgets customers per day you will follow my rules or I will make your competition rich.

        Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I think you can still call it a slap from Google-

    It's slapping your business down because it's not delivering quality content to Google's customers- people typing in the search term.

    Is it "just business"? Yes- but this "just business" decision is still a huge slap in the face to many people's sites.

    I agree with your post- all of this auto-crap isn't going to keep working. Real businesses have to deliver solid content- end of story.

    I'm just saying that you can still call it a slap, because that's what it is...
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

      I think you can still call it a slap from Google-

      It's slapping your business down because it's not delivering quality content to Google's customers- people typing in the search term.

      Is it "just business"? Yes- but this "just business" decision is still a huge slap in the face to many people's sites.

      I agree with your post- all of this auto-crap isn't going to keep working. Real businesses have to deliver solid content- end of story.

      I'm just saying that you can still call it a slap, because that's what it is...
      Agreed. My reasoning for wanting to view it differently is that people take slaps personally.

      I wanted people to step back from it and see it from a logical perspective. That's why I said "you're Google".

      When they do this, it is my hope at least that they will extrapolate and then execute their newly formed espousal with reason rather than an emotionally developed response.

      So yes, it is a slap. However, I was attempting to have people think instead of react. Which is not directed at your statement but rather directed at the fact that Rome for all her advancements is still very much the Mob.

      Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Joseph
      Agreed Justin,

      Solid original content, and hand-generated links will go A LOT farther then auto-generated nonsense now. The consumers are catching on, and Google is forced to keep their reputation strong - by any means necessary.

      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

      I think you can still call it a slap from Google-

      It's slapping your business down because it's not delivering quality content to Google's customers- people typing in the search term.

      Is it "just business"? Yes- but this "just business" decision is still a huge slap in the face to many people's sites.

      I agree with your post- all of this auto-crap isn't going to keep working. Real businesses have to deliver solid content- end of story.

      I'm just saying that you can still call it a slap, because that's what it is...
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      Jon

      "Success comes when people act together; failure tends to happen alone." -- Deepak Chopra

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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Jonathan Joseph View Post

        Agreed Justin,

        Solid original content, and hand-generated links will go A LOT farther then auto-generated nonsense now. The consumers are catching on, and Google is forced to keep their reputation strong - by any means necessary.

        Very true!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If you know your subject, you are using the right keywords in your article. If it's good, the search engines will find it.
    But...but it just couldn't be as simple as that. There just has to be a secret, an exact sequence/density/amount of fairy dust that Google wants to ensure your ranking!
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

      But...but it just couldn't be as simple as that. There just has to be a secret, an exact sequence/density/amount of fairy dust that Google wants to ensure your ranking!
      Ah, I see You and Ken are from the same Society!

      Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author troybh
        It really is as simple for google to count backlinks like has been said. If a page is indexed in google and gets at least a few organic views it is a relevant backlink. If not then it is a useless backlink. This is the only way google can possibly analyze backlinks to a site. As for examining quality content google is not there YET.
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    • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
      Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

      But...but it just couldn't be as simple as that. There just has to be a secret, an exact sequence/density/amount of fairy dust that Google wants to ensure your ranking!
      Yes, there is! And for $27 I'll share it with you! Just check out my sig!
      Signature

      I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post

        Yes, there is! And for $27 I'll share it with you! Just check out my sig!
        I knew it! Let me just click your sig.

        Hm, wait a minute something is off...

        Oh.

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        • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
          Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

          I knew it! Let me just click your sig.

          Hm, wait a minute something is off...

          Oh.
          (Hehehe...)
          Signature

          I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Silvey
        Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post

        Yes, there is! And for $27 I'll share it with you! Just check out my sig!

        ROFL! Dang spilt Pepsi down my shirt.
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  • Profile picture of the author Skaught27
    Google slaps aren't as drastic as they claim from everything I've noticed. Just be aware of them and adapt!
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    Google makes changes in order to maximize profits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marc Marseille
      Posting original content, guest posting, blog comments that make sense, and social media interactions is definitely the right answer. The problem is all of this is excruciating tedious work and that is why a lot of marketers use softwares. The only other real alternative is finding Good outsourcers to manually to this work...
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Enfusia, thanks for the excellent, solid post. I (naturally) have just a couple of points of difference.

        You say "Google doesn't care about marketers."

        I say, "Google has to care about marketers, because ultimately they are the ones paying the bills."

        We can eliminate this apparent disagreement with a slight change in terminology:

        Rather than call the spam blaster types "marketers", let's use the more accurate term: "parasites"...

        Problem solved.
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        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Enfusia, thanks for the excellent, solid post. I (naturally) have just a couple of points of difference.

          You say "Google doesn't care about marketers."

          I say, "Google has to care about marketers, because ultimately they are the ones paying the bills."

          We can eliminate this apparent disagreement with a slight change in terminology:

          Rather than call the spam blaster types "marketers", let's use the more accurate term: "parasites"...

          Problem solved.
          Touche!
          Great way to put it.

          Of course you had something to offer
          I've seen many of your comments around and your thought processes always seem to be solid.

          One of the things I am attempting to do with this is to get people to think.

          "Hmmm? If I am spamming the net and I am continuously getting slapped. Then why do I attempt to solve the last slap with the newest shiny shiny that auto spams some new area of the web that has not been slapped YET?" (keyword yet).


          Then when that new and improved super shiny gets slapped they yet again run en mass to the next new super shiny.

          I just want people to think about that for a moment.

          The definition of insanity is to repeat the same action over and over but expect a different result.

          Patrick
          [edit to ad]
          P.S. The reason I say they don't care about the marketers is not that the G is cold and heartless. But, they know if they have 1,000,000 people a month who want sports tickets (as an example only) you will do nearly anything to make a $1 per sale clear profit from those customers. So, as they change things you will adapt as evidenced by all the questions of what do I do now here on the forum within 24 hours of the latest slap.
          That was my point. Yes, the marketers are paying the bills. But they know for a fact that if they have the buyers there will always be eager marketers.
          [end of edit]
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          • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

            *snip*

            One of the things I am attempting to do with this is to get people to think.

            *snip*
            I think this is the biggest problem. The people who are actually smart enough to think things through either never tried these "shiny shiny" things or jumped off the bandwagon as soon as they saw what was what.

            Everyone else? They clicked out of this thread as soon as they were sure that you weren't announcing the end of their "trick".
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            • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
              Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

              I think this is the biggest problem. The people who are actually smart enough to think things through either never tried these "shiny shiny" things or jumped off the bandwagon as soon as they saw what was what.

              Everyone else? They clicked out of this thread as soon as they were sure that you weren't announcing the end of their "trick".

              The problem is you are correct....sigh...
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  • Profile picture of the author housewarrior
    Hello Patrick,

    You know what? When I scan the new posts and run across a one sentence question, then I SUSPECT the sender!

    Yours is a super post!

    I stay in trouble in certain of my favorite hangouts for blasting Google. Ha! I blast em because some folks take Google at their word and believe that Google has everyone's best interest at heart when in reality Google has Google's best interest at heart. They are one of the most ruthless businesses to come down the pike since business was invented. JP Morgan should smile.

    Having said that, it is their business, and they demand that we play by their rules, which if not nice, is fair.

    My problem with this whole thing is that if the Group A way is the only way to get your pages to the top, then everyone is truly equal, which makes a Sunday blogger equal to me, a guy trying to make some dough by doing whatever extra I can to get my results to the top.

    Google is going to take their cut either way, you see, but it sort of puts the whole old fashioned Internet marketing industry into the questionable category for a viable biz model.

    Therefore, I have decided to back away from oldthink. Pushbutton is out and good old fashioned get it and dig it work is back in. I'm looking at new ways, and one in old way particular that I have used since 2002, that is Google proof and Panda proof, but one that requires more brain work and key pounding than these silly link blasters. Definitely hands on and not set it and forget it.

    It hurts me to see folks down in that barrel still in the old rut of snapping up the next great new gimmick based on the old SEO paradigm that will only lead to heartache. Many, thinner, and used up, give up and just vanish through the cracks at the bottom of the barrel.

    It's a new IM world out there now, and love it or hate it we have to deal with it if we're going to keep working it.

    Norm


    Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

    Hi,

    Group A I posted all the links buy hand and made relevant content posts.
    Group B I used a super popular blog blaster software that was a big WSO here on the WF.

    Results:
    With the hand posted sites every single one of the pages is on page one of G with 5 in the top 5 (remember, these were easy pages to rank).
    Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by housewarrior View Post

      Hello Patrick,

      You know what? When I scan the new posts and run across a one sentence question, then I SUSPECT the sender!

      Yours is a super post!

      I stay in trouble in certain of my favorite hangouts for blasting Google. Ha! I blast em because some folks take Google at their word and believe that Google has everyone's best interest at heart when in reality Google has Google's best interest at heart. They are one of the most ruthless businesses to come down the pike since business was invented. JP Morgan should smile.

      Having said that, it is their business, and they demand that we play by their rules, which if not nice, is fair.

      My problem with this whole thing is that if the Group A way is the only way to get your pages to the top, then everyone is truly equal, which makes a Sunday blogger equal to me, a guy trying to make some dough by doing whatever extra I can to get my results to the top.

      Google is going to take their cut either way, you see, but it sort of puts the whole old fashioned Internet marketing industry into the questionable category for a viable biz model.

      Therefore, I have decided to back away from oldthink. Pushbutton is out and good old fashioned get it and dig it work is back in. I'm looking at new ways, and one in old way particular that I have used since 2002, that is Google proof and Panda proof, but one that requires more brain work and key pounding than these silly link blasters. Definitely hands on and not set it and forget it.

      It hurts me to see folks down in that barrel still in the old rut of snapping up the next great new gimmick based on the old SEO paradigm that will only lead to heartache. Many, thinner, and used up, give up and just vanish through the cracks at the bottom of the barrel.

      It's a new IM world out there now, and love it or hate it we have to deal with it if we're going to keep working it.

      Norm
      We need to build solid businesses not the kind that even have to worry about a slap.

      So, I agree 100% with where you are saying your headed.

      Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author ruman2k7
        I've read in Searchengineland that Google already de-indexed lots of links of BMR, and also, Google is thinking of taking down link network services. Google always likes content, and according to my experience, I think building links varying anchor text would give benefit, and just like old times, "Link Diversity" is the key to the success. Building links from one single source would be too risky.
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        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
          Originally Posted by ruman2k7 View Post

          I've read in Searchengineland that Google already de-indexed lots of links of BMR, and also, Google is thinking of taking down link network services. Google always likes content, and according to my experience, I think building links varying anchor text would give benefit, and just like old times, "Link Diversity" is the key to the success. Building links from one single source would be too risky.
          In my opinion you are right.

          Links from all over the net.
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  • Profile picture of the author stephenwaldo
    Searchers are not Google's customers - They're the product being sold.

    Advertisers are Google's customers - Defined as who Google is trying to make money from.

    Yes, Google cares about searchers because they like to offer advertisers a quality product, but priorities will always be like so...

    Google's List of Priorities:
    1. Brand
    2. Money
    3. Search
    This is just how it is; they're a business first and foremost. Anyone who says otherwise is just bein' silly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      Originally Posted by stephenwaldo View Post

      Google's List of Priorities:
      1. Brand
      2. Money
      3. Search
      This is just how it is; they're a business first and foremost. Anyone who says otherwise is just bein' silly.
      I disagree. Search is #1. It always has been. And if they let it drift too far from the #1 spot, the brand and money pile goes to hell in a hand basket. They have a multi-billion dollar corporation (Microsoft) on their heels. What will let Bing pass them is if their search engine delivers up poor search results.

      That and that alone will give Bing the advantage.

      There is no brand and no money without the search. Search is the horse that goes before the cart. And they can't screw it up - 'cause Bing will take their brand and their money if they do.

      But I'm just silly like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post

        I disagree. Search is #1. It always has been. And if they let it drift too far from the #1 spot, the brand and money pile goes to hell in a hand basket. They have a multi-billion dollar corporation (Microsoft) on their heels. What will let Bing pass them is if their search engine delivers up poor search results.

        That and that alone will give Bing the advantage.

        There is no brand and no money without the search. Search is the horse that goes before the cart. And they can't screw it up - 'cause Bing will take their brand and their money if they do.

        But I'm just silly like that.
        Agreed!

        That is one of my sub points but it is in precise alignment with you own espousal.

        Yes they care about brand but just like no one says give me an adhesive bandage, no one says search it on the internet thingy. They say Google it.
        So, there brand is fairing well.

        From my chair you are correct in that it is search foremost and the wheels of search are the searchers.

        This means if G cares foremost about search then they care foremost about the searcher which was my sub point.

        And yes, if they drift to far from #1 by alienating the searchers Bing will be there ready to scoop up all those eyeballs with wallets for there gain.

        Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    Very interesting points of view in this thread. Whatever happens with Google affects everyone online, in a way or another.

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  • Profile picture of the author WFmarketer
    Nah, Google has a good strangle hold. In business, they are looking to get more money for it. They don't care as much about innovating and improving search.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by WFmarketer View Post

      Nah, Google has a good strangle hold. In business, they are looking to get more money for it. They don't care as much about innovating and improving search.
      It is because they want more money that they have to innovate and improve their search engine and it's algorithm. It's simple: poor results means no users. No users means no one for advertisers to sell to. If advertisers have no one to sell to they stop advertising. If advertisers stop advertising Google makes no money.

      Why is this such a difficult concept for people to wrap their heads around. :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

        It is because they want more money that they have to innovate and improve their search engine and it's algorithm. It's simple: poor results means no users. No users means no one for advertisers to sell to. If advertisers have no one to sell to they stop advertising. If advertisers stop advertising Google makes no money.

        Why is this such a difficult concept for people to wrap their heads around. :confused:
        Thank you, thank you, thank you!

        You boiled down to one sentence what I have posted in about 10 replies.

        If you don't understand what I wrote because I am unclear or my writing style stinks please read what Joe said above.

        This is precisely (distilled down) my main sub point.

        Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      Originally Posted by WFmarketer View Post

      Nah, Google has a good strangle hold. In business, they are looking to get more money for it. They don't care as much about innovating and improving search.
      Well, a little, itty bitty corporation called Microsoft disagrees. In fact, they have millions upon millions wrapped up in the notion that Google's stranglehold is anything but permanent. Do you not see that if they rest on their laurels concerning their search engine that they will lose advertising money to Bing?

      Bing sees it. I see it. But you don't?
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  • Profile picture of the author mikerenville
    I think you articulated very accurately the reality of what Google is attempting and ultimately will be successful in doing and that is providing relevant and trusted information and resources to its users. Thanks! I now know what I need to do to be successful!
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  • Profile picture of the author sevaans
    I was reading an interesting comment on a dmoz blog post the other day that mentioned that you really have to wonder how worthwhile increasing the effectiveness of the search algorithm is as a ROI. If most of the money is coming from their adsense business, and google search is doing okay, but not actually making any money (other than a place to place the ads), how much money can be justifiably spent on it? I thought that was a good question.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sevaans View Post

      I was reading an interesting comment on a dmoz blog post the other day that mentioned that you really have to wonder how worthwhile increasing the effectiveness of the search algorithm is as a ROI. If most of the money is coming from their adsense business, and google search is doing okay, but not actually making any money (other than a place to place the ads), how much money can be justifiably spent on it? I thought that was a good question.
      I couldn't tell you whether Adwords ads or Adsense ads bring in more money for Google, I wouldn't know. What I do know though is that if they allow their search results to go to crap, it won't really matter.

      You think because a crap site has Adsense slapped onto it that it is suddenly an asset to Google? Quite the opposite, really. Users will be less likely to click the ads and more likely to click the back button. If the content on the web page was poor, readers won't want to know what kind of advertisements are willingly associated with it.

      Google's survival depends on top quality search results. There is no other way around it and no other way to rationalize it. If you intend to pull in traffic through the search engine, you are going to have to get on board.
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  • Profile picture of the author BHeard
    Google like the rest of us look for ways to stop what is tantamount to spamming in any flavour or variety.
    If you take up space in online real estate and fill it with mindless data, it gives the rest of us a small sigh of relief every time they find a new algorithum to knock them down. Our clients sites usually move up in ranks with each new slap because we do not use spam black hat tactics.. Its like the real world, if you cheat you usually get found out eventually.
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  • Profile picture of the author lennyk1313
    I agree completely that at the end of the day the original content is king, and social interaction is becoming more and more so. Yes it does take time to write good content that people will be interested in, as well as to set a good footprint in social interaction to get the word out there about your product/service, but I believe if you put the time in to it it will pay off in the long run. Quick link blasting may get you there quicker, but how long will it last, we shall see. Because it takes a long time to process all this work, a better solution may be a an outsourcing for an article writing as well as manual link building vs. the blasting services.
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  • Profile picture of the author bladening
    Google does not care about the marketer, thats hurt my heart
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  • Profile picture of the author footfoot
    Algorithms can't identify quality very well but people can.
    Google has thousands of people that manually comb the search results:
    Work from Home as a Google Quality Rater - WAHM.com
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  • Profile picture of the author QualityVideoTestimonial
    I would say that google should avoid spammers and content coming from automated software as they added no value to the Internet users. Think as a search engine user, what would you expect as a search result? Is that crap or original, valuable and reliable information.

    I have seen some of hot niches, you get different list of search results, but finally ended up landing on a same affiliate link. so what value you are getting ???
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    • Profile picture of the author saunds
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by saunds View Post

        Is anyone here saying that Google's primary responsibility is towards Adwords avertisers, Adsense publishers or Searchers, in particular? While they are all Google's customers and worthy of great customer service, respectfully, none of them are Google's primary responsibility, legally speaking, agreed?
        Legally speaking, Google's fiduciary responsibility is to their stockholders.

        Google ultimately fulfills that fiduciary responsibility by serving the interests of searchers, who in turn generate the clicks that advertisers and publishers depend on.

        Screw the searchers, and the clicks go away, advertisers lose business, publishers (including the search results) have insufficient inventory, and ultimately the stockholders lose both value of and return on their investment.

        Boil the fluff away, and Google still has to keep searchers happy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Legally speaking, Google's fiduciary responsibility is to their stockholders.

          Google ultimately fulfills that fiduciary responsibility by serving the interests of searchers, who in turn generate the clicks that advertisers and publishers depend on.

          Screw the searchers, and the clicks go away, advertisers lose business, publishers (including the search results) have insufficient inventory, and ultimately the stockholders lose both value of and return on their investment.

          Boil the fluff away, and Google still has to keep searchers happy.
          PrEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcisely!!!!!!!!!!!

          You are absolutely correct.

          Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author xrcv
    Advertisers are google's customers..that is clear. Google cannot be against manual link building, because there currently isn't a site on the net that ranks with natural links...only a very few (tim ferriss blog and sites of that type) and they do not offer 'normal' information - people link to them because they offer unique and weird approaches to things..not what the average user is looking for. Try and find a website that currently ranks page one for a big search and has even 10% naturally created links - you won't be able to. It's all blog networks, web2s and comments (which are still pretty powerful..go figure). The only type of natural link so far are forums.

    Think about big searches - insurance, health, viagra, so on. What was the last time you linked to those things? And yea, when I buy viagra online I for sure post the website on my facebook or my high authority personal blog so that everyone will know my d*** isnt working...Are you joking?? And of course if you are fat and you bought a new weight loss book you will link to that too and post on your fb wall...GTFO

    There were 87k domains registered in the last 24 hours...good luck reviewing them manually. And are new sites now dependent on stupid fat stay at home moms who work as manual reviewers, whos opinion is absolutely biased not to mention they are probably complete idiots because they don't have another job and stay at home all day..yea right. To rate a website you;d have to have at least 10 people reviewing it and averaging the votes..good luck with that.

    G doesn't have to make all those amazing changes.. they just have to better than bing. That's all.

    The thing g is currently doing to counter spammy sites is they artificially disappear and reappear the site a f**** ton during the first month in an effort to discourage marketers. Just ignore that and keep building spammy comments and AMR blasts to your site..you will be page one in a month or two. And do not ever have your site in the WebMaster tools.. it always boggles my mind how may people still do that.
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  • Profile picture of the author SamDermot
    Banned
    Of course, Google is working for the society, for the searchers it tries to supply relevant search result.

    We should understand that we have to quality work for better result.
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  • Profile picture of the author daveshu
    Google is definitely not JUST about the marketers who pay them using PPC. I have used it extensively, I paid them £6000 one month (about $10,000 at the time), then one day - BAM!

    I got the message "your adwords account has been permanently banned"

    According to Google some of my ads were to "low quality content" and that was that - no way to appeal, no one to talk to, just out on my ear and no more paid advertising.

    It does feel like they're attacking site owners, maybe thats because most of the site owners hit are trying to make a living and putting that above quality for the visitors?
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  • Profile picture of the author radivoj
    Well if Google gonna start to penalize site that overuse SEO then no site will be safe so anybody can hurt your site ranking using negative SEO , if you are think that Google decision is good to penalize site for overuse SEO to provide users better experience which you think it will help you to rank your site higher if you have better quality content then your competition, if you think like that then you are definitely out of your mind because if your site is ranked higher then your competition, then somebody can easily just sent couple of thousands spammy links to your single page using same anchor and Google will penalize you for over optimization regardless how good and quality your site is to the users you still gonna be penalized for overuse SEO ...
    Google has forced the relevance of negative SEO, If Google wants to be aggressive and careless with their penalties, then we need to show them this is easier to exploit than link building manipulation...stupid decision by Googles recent algorithm change, If they're willing to penalize sites so easily, this is what the SEO will turn into...
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  • Profile picture of the author jonathanleger
    Fact:

    It's still all about the links in Google (spammy or otherwise).

    Proof:

    How Google Makes Liars Out of the Good Guys in SEO | SEOmoz

    End of Story.
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by jonathanleger View Post

      Fact:

      It's still all about the links in Google (spammy or otherwise).

      Proof:

      How Google Makes Liars Out of the Good Guys in SEO | SEOmoz

      End of Story.
      Hi Jonathan,

      I read your blog post when I got in my mail (I'm on your list and it's one of the few lists I enjoy being on).

      Yes, Google is about links. I don't see how they could adjust their algo to remove that factor completely.

      However, I have many times (so it was no accident) seen that low quality links (I tried setting up a video scraper link site once as an example) drop me like a hot potato in the serps and it can take months (if ever) to get my site back to page 1.

      I have seen this many times and kept records (I keep records of all the link types and counts to each of my sites).

      Yet I have taken a stubborn site sitting on page 1 #9 (as an example only) and moved it to #1 or #2 with one contextual, high on page PR, VERY low obl link.

      I have done this or similar many times as well.

      So quality does count.

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Agree with the Op but I always get a laugh when a subject obviously starts in the main section and gets pushed to the SEO section. It is always filled with people who think they are so much better than people who spam google and yet we know some are this very week slamming their list mercilessly or holding a viewer hostage on a sale page with a popup " Wait don't go" with the latest make money online whiz bang product because the affiliate dollars look good.

    Its like they have no idea that outside of Internet marketing groups like this the wider population sees them exactly like they do the link spammers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Agree with the Op but I always get a laugh when a subject obviously starts in the main section and gets pushed to the SEO section. It is always filled with people who think they are so much better than people who spam google and yet we know some are this very week slamming their list mercilessly or holding a viewer hostage on a sale page with a popup " Wait don't go" with the latest make money online whiz bang product because the affiliate dollars look good.

      Its like they have no idea that outside of Internet marketing groups like this the wider population sees them exactly like they do the link spammers.
      If I started the thread in the wrong area my apology. This is only my 2nd thread and so I may have been mistaken.

      I can assure you, I am not one of the list slamming link spammers ( I know you were not saying that I was) just sayin.

      Yes, most people in mainstream have an opinion about marketers that's for sure.

      Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

        If I started the thread in the wrong area my apology. This is only my 2nd thread and so I may have been mistaken.
        Patrick my man - you did not even cross my mind. Agreed and thanked your post. its just that whenever these SEO threads hit the main board they always attract a merry bunch of followers who though decrying SEO have precious little to say about other scuzzy marketing practices (as defined by the greater populace).

        Inevitably the threads get moved to the Seo section and we end up reading the first two pages from posters like they are holding their nose while If we go to the main board and cry down say sales pages/WSOs that promise " $3,000 in day from scratch easy as pie . you can do it too" or object to getting our email slammed by every new product launch because we had the trust of signing up for a list, we might even be told that its our negativity why we object or be told people stupid enough to believe it somehow on some level deserve it.

        It s the nature of humanity. Every family believes their smell is cleaner than the other. The solution for both is to go bathe and I do agree that link spammers need to bathe and SEO needs a cleaning but it is far from the only thing in internet marketing that needs the dirt washed out.
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        • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Patrick my man - you did not even cross my mind. Agreed and thanked your post. its just that whenever these SEO threads hit the main board they always attract a merry bunch of followers who though decrying SEO have precious little to say about other scuzzy marketing practices (as defined by the greater populace).

          Inevitably the threads get moved to the Seo section and we end up reading the first two pages from posters like they are holding their nose while If we go to the main board and cry down say sales pages/WSOs that promise " $3,000 in day from scratch easy as pie . you can do it too" or object to getting our email slammed by every new product launch because we had the trust of signing up for a list, we might even be told that its our negativity why we object or be told people stupid enough to believe it somehow on some level deserve it.

          It s the nature of humanity. Every family believes their smell is cleaner than the other. The solution for both is to go bathe and I do agree that link spammers need to bathe and SEO needs a cleaning but it is far from the only thing in internet marketing that needs the dirt washed out.

          Yup,

          Agreed!

          There are many things that need a scrubbing in our industry. I was just attempting to shed light on one of them.


          I am glad this thread got moved to wherever it did because many of the people who I see making truly intelligent and honorable comments on the forum are commenting here and I truly appreciate your input and feedback.

          Thank you all.
          Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Agree with the Op but I always get a laugh when a subject obviously starts in the main section and gets pushed to the SEO section. It is always filled with people who think they are so much better than people who spam google and yet we know some are this very week slamming their list mercilessly or holding a viewer hostage on a sale page with a popup " Wait don't go" with the latest make money online whiz bang product because the affiliate dollars look good.

      Its like they have no idea that outside of Internet marketing groups like this the wider population sees them exactly like they do the link spammers.
      Lol, don't forget with each new popup comes that ever degrading price reduction.

      That one is hilarious!

      I was on a squeeze page once (can't remember the CB product) & I swear the price went from something like $97 down to $19, or something similar, the page had 3 or 4 popups that kept reducing the price each time I tried to leave the page.

      Classic fail!
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  • Profile picture of the author jonathanleger
    I read your blog post when I got in my mail (I'm on your list and it's one of the few lists I enjoy being on).
    Thanks for reading. I'm glad you like what you're getting.

    Yes, Google is about links. I don't see how they could adjust their algo to remove that factor completely.
    We are certainly in agreement on this point.

    So quality does count.
    Yes, quality counts. I'm not arguing with that.

    My beef is with people who think that things like bounce rates and social signals play a significant part in the SERPs right now. They don't.

    Will they in the future? Perhaps. But Google's been making claims for years that their next algo change will improve this-or-that, remove SPAM, etc., and yet the sites I follow who just cannon-blast their sites with all manner of links from all manner of sites still rank well. In fact, many of them are doing better post-Panda than they were before.

    The deindexing of the big link networks like BMR was manual. It was not algorithmic. I use many other link networks that have staying-properties that BMR did not (such as the blogs being owned and hosted by the users) that still rank my sites and pages quite well.

    Studies like the one I linked to at SEOMoz prove what some in this thread have rightfully stated: Google cannot tell the difference between quality and spam. It uses the link profile to determine that, and link profiles can be gamed.

    Dan Anton of BackLinksIndexer.com fame (which I highly recommend) said to me recently, "Google's most powerful algorithm is the one they pretend the have."

    True words.

    Jon
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by jonathanleger View Post


      My beef is with people who think that things like bounce rates and social signals play a significant part in the SERPs right now. They don't.

      Jon
      I agree with the above and in no way made reference otherwise.

      As far as stuff ranking that's spamming, again agreed. But it shouldn't be.
      Yes, I know, should or shouldn't doesn't matter it is ranking.

      Example: I use 1 way links and have for years. You have human reviewers (I know I have had a couple of articles I've had to redo) but most do not.

      There are so many crappy link farms it's insane.

      So my beef is with using the crappy ones then they get taken down and then they jump on the next crappy one until it goes down. (Ok, that was only one of my points, but one of my main ones).

      In all things truth and quality endure. (yeah, that may be complete horse pucky but I wish it were true).

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author jonathanleger
    There are so many crappy link farms it's insane.
    When those link farms stop working, people will stop using them.

    I don't endorse using networks that allow spam and unreadable garbage, either, but the bottom line is that they do work. Google cannot tell the difference. My own analysis of the SERPs I work to rank for proves this again and again. There are certainly sites ranking for those keywords that have good quality link profiles, but mixed in among them are the ones with pure spam profiles -- and they still rank.

    If a person has a quality site with quality content, no matter how spammy their link profile is they can rank. Of course, those links have to be built at the right speed and in the right way, but it doesn't matter much where they come from.

    The only reason why the quality content matters at this point is that Google's human reviewers will deindexed or manually penalize low-quality sites that make it to the top of SERPs for significant keywords. But from what I am seeing in the SERPs they don't base the penalties on the link profile -- they base it on the content quality and to a lesser extent the on-page SEO (if it's too obviously over-optimized you might get penalized).

    I'd love it if I could just write high quality content and have it rank in Google. Google wants you to think that's all it takes, but what it really takes is links aimed at the content. And whose got time to sit around and wait for other people to do that for them? We're in business here.

    Jon
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    • Profile picture of the author Svetislav
      Jonathan I agree with all you said.. but I am wondering if I have a good quality site ranked and somebody from competition sent thousands backlinks with the same anchor point to my site will Google penalize me for ? I just come across brand new news regarding coming Google over optimization penalty and it talking about that having many same kw anchor it will get you site penalized easy here's the article SEO News - SEO News - Over Optimization Penalty Is Coming



      Originally Posted by jonathanleger View Post

      When those link farms stop working, people will stop using them.

      I don't endorse using networks that allow spam and unreadable garbage, either, but the bottom line is that they do work. Google cannot tell the difference. My own analysis of the SERPs I work to rank for proves this again and again. There are certainly sites ranking for those keywords that have good quality link profiles, but mixed in among them are the ones with pure spam profiles -- and they still rank.

      If a person has a quality site with quality content, no matter how spammy their link profile is they can rank. Of course, those links have to be built at the right speed and in the right way, but it doesn't matter much where they come from.

      The only reason why the quality content matters at this point is that Google's human reviewers will deindexed or manually penalize low-quality sites that make it to the top of SERPs for significant keywords. But from what I am seeing in the SERPs they don't base the penalties on the link profile -- they base it on the content quality and to a lesser extent the on-page SEO (if it's too obviously over-optimized you might get penalized).

      I'd love it if I could just write high quality content and have it rank in Google. Google wants you to think that's all it takes, but what it really takes is links aimed at the content. And whose got time to sit around and wait for other people to do that for them? We're in business here.

      Jon
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by jonathanleger View Post

      When those link farms stop working, people will stop using them.

      I don't endorse using networks that allow spam and unreadable garbage, either, but the bottom line is that they do work. Google cannot tell the difference. My own analysis of the SERPs I work to rank for proves this again and again. There are certainly sites ranking for those keywords that have good quality link profiles, but mixed in among them are the ones with pure spam profiles -- and they still rank.

      If a person has a quality site with quality content, no matter how spammy their link profile is they can rank. Of course, those links have to be built at the right speed and in the right way, but it doesn't matter much where they come from.

      The only reason why the quality content matters at this point is that Google's human reviewers will deindexed or manually penalize low-quality sites that make it to the top of SERPs for significant keywords. But from what I am seeing in the SERPs they don't base the penalties on the link profile -- they base it on the content quality and to a lesser extent the on-page SEO (if it's too obviously over-optimized you might get penalized).

      I'd love it if I could just write high quality content and have it rank in Google. Google wants you to think that's all it takes, but what it really takes is links aimed at the content. And whose got time to sit around and wait for other people to do that for them? We're in business here.

      Jon
      I actually agree with EVERY THING YOU JUST SAID!

      In my earlier post I also agreed with exactly what you just said (before you even said it).

      My statement was (in effect) I wish it wasn't true!

      Like you said G want's you to believe that you could write Great content and rank. Well, that's what I mean. That's what I wish was true.

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author jonathanleger
    Jonathan I agree with all you said.. but I am wondering if I have a good quality site ranked and somebody from competition sent thousands backlinks with the same anchor point to my site will Google penalize me for?
    I've read a few reports where people claimed that those kinds of links from competitors were bringing down their ranking, but after hashing it out with them it usually comes to light that there are other things causing the problem.

    Google would be starting a web-war if your competition could bring you down simply by flooding your site with spam links. There would be countless people working to bring down the sites that outrank them. The SERPs would look very different than they do now, I promise you that.

    Google is far from perfect, but the people who engineer it aren't stupid either. Who links TO you doesn't cause penalties. If you link out to "bad neighborhood" sites, that could certainly cause penalties. Or if the links bring you to the top of the SERPs and a manual review shows that your content quality is low or you use spammy on-page SEO, that can cause a penalty.

    Most of what you're reading about how people were "penalized" for getting links from blog networks, etc., isn't a penalty at all. It's really this:

    1. A site got links from blog networks. Those links caused them to rank well.

    2. Google deindexes the blog networks. Those links are no longer counted, and the site's ranking falls.

    3. The webmaster of the site posts at the forums that his site's been "penalized" when it hasn't -- it just lost the links that were ranking it.

    I hope that eases your fears a bit. Just focus on quality content, good (non-spammy) on-page SEO and getting lots and lots of links to your site.
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  • Profile picture of the author leorocking25
    Google administrator may think about some changes in the content,design and some others important issues.
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    • Profile picture of the author styledoesmatter
      The problem with what the OP says is that Google's #1 ranking factor is RELEVANCY.

      In the same way searchers are going to be pissed when they see a supermodel-thin affiliate site sitting at #1, they're going to be a wee bit upset when they see a page that is only tangentially relevant to their search.

      Google has ALWAYS put relevancy before authority and probably always will. Otherwise, Google, Facebook, and NYtimes.com would dominate every keyword.

      Long live EMDs, and single keyword-focused content!
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      • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
        Originally Posted by styledoesmatter View Post

        The problem with what the OP says is that Google's #1 ranking factor is RELEVANCY.

        In the same way searchers are going to be pissed when they see a supermodel-thin affiliate site sitting at #1, they're going to be a wee bit upset when they see a page that is only tangentially relevant to their search.

        Google has ALWAYS put relevancy before authority and probably always will. Otherwise, Google, Facebook, and NYtimes.com would dominate every keyword.

        Long live EMDs, and single keyword-focused content!
        Hi, please read what I said about that this is just a new way of determining relevancy.

        I understand the value they place on relevancy and that is one of the main points actually.

        Thanks, Patrick
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        • Profile picture of the author styledoesmatter
          Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

          Hi, please read what I said about that this is just a new way of determining relevancy.

          I understand the value they place on relevancy and that is one of the main points actually.

          Thanks, Patrick
          I read your OP. But it is just your opinion about what Google is going to change re: relevancy. They may get a bit better at the science of relevancy in the future, but they will always try to put the MOST RELEVANT results first. There's no "new way of determining relevancy" --an article is either about red widgets or blue widgets, not both.
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          • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
            Originally Posted by styledoesmatter View Post

            I read your OP. But it is just your opinion about what Google is going to change re: relevancy. They may get a bit better at the science of relevancy in the future, but they will always try to put the MOST RELEVANT results first. There's no "new way of determining relevancy" --an article is either about red widgets or blue widgets, not both.
            Yes it's still all about relevancy and links.

            What I said was they seem to be minimizing the effect of an EMD and relying on cumulative page markers to supply the algo with the relevancy information.

            I do nothing but rank sites for a living and I see patterns because it's what I do all day every day.

            Patrick
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            • Profile picture of the author styledoesmatter
              Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

              Yes it's still all about relevancy and links.

              What I said was they seem to be minimizing the effect of an EMD and relying on cumulative page markers to supply the algo with the relevancy information.

              I do nothing but rank sites for a living and I see patterns because it's what I do all day every day.

              Patrick
              That's how I spend my days too (or more accurately, my VAs). Of course, EMDs haven't mattered much in YEARS. This is nothing new my friend : )
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  • Profile picture of the author radivoj
    Well with the last update in Google Webmaster their said they work hard to prevent good site get slap by competition you can check it here - Can competitors harm ranking? - Webmaster Tools Help
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  • Profile picture of the author smileverse
    however, i do believe in the quality, relevancy and originality of the content and i do apply the same in my websites to stay as google friendly one.
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  • Profile picture of the author trilogy9013
    I couldn't agree more!! I feel like so many people just don't understand SEO and jump at the next big thing. But then again, i suppose that is the way business goes and some people make their living (sadly) off of people who fall in to temptation of outsmarting google only to realize that it doesn't work or it won't last forever. Either way, it is a breath of fresh air when you realize that that nonsense doesn't work and there has always been one way to do SEO and it still works today.

    The game hasn't changed, it is just clamping down on the rules that have already been set. Put yourself in google's shoes and you will leap to the top 5% of marketers when it comes to effective SEO.
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