Black hat this black hat that

14 years ago

It is a really tricky question - In my opinion, all kinds of SEO have a sort of black hat.

In the ideal world, you should post some amazing posts and articles, and people should just LOVE and share your brilliant work.

Whoops, new web site, no authority, no links - how can people find that brilliant content?

I know it is a little "on the edge," but I think you get my point.

So if I should try to nail it down, yes - automated SEO where you blast almost the same anchor text out to thousands of the same types of sites probably doesn't last long.

They key is trust and diversity - that means links from trust worthy websites, and from different types of websites.

Is forum posting black hat? Well submitting to 2 thousand forums only with a profile link, I think it is just a matter before that option dries out. Does it look natural? no

What about participation in a related forum, answering other, participate in a debate - and leave several links in your signature. That is different - then you build yourself both an audience plus establishing trust.

Is blog commenting spam? Yes, if you just submit an auto spun comments to thousands of blogs.

However, again, if you focus on relevant blogs and read and comment - fine!

The next and very important is social signals - if your site are mentioned on Twitter and FB, social bookmarking.

Some might say it is black hat, but "helping the audience" finding a site that actually has quality would probably not harm you.

So variation in sources, build some links - start with 5-10 a day on different platforms, and grow it slow and easy, and you should be safe.

Actually, SEO has not changed that much - a link from an authority site gives more credit than thousand crap links.

So perfect ON SITE SEO, internal link building with your primary keyword and external links from different sources and you should be safe home.

Good luck!

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GGpaul

14 years ago

Thanks. I plan to just GET INVOLVED , NO software, NO blasting. I just want to find relevant blogs/forums/sites where I can participate and promote my site.

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

I reject the premise that one company (Google) has the moral authority to label anything "Black" as in bad ( with its racial overtones) . To me "Black hat" is spamming and hacking. I'm of course aware of Google's definitions but as long as I conduct my business in a way that doesn't allow them or makes it unlikely they will sanction me according their rules thats the end of my concern. Look a t buying links. You will be hard pressed to find any SEO company that doesn't buy links at som point. Its rampant and pervasive. We all know that large and small companies buy links. Google knows it and has even been caught themselves doing it. Major retailers get ton loads of links not naturally but because they run million dollars campaigns that get people linking to them

I hear buying domains is black hat but what company out there doesn't buy up other companies and use their marketing assets? Companies like Adobe, Google, Microsoft, ABC, Disney, Microsoft and on and on give followed links to their partners and subsidiaries all on the basis of money exchanging hands.

Besides black hat has no definition anymore. you even have people running around claiming guest blogging is black hat because you are writing just for a link.

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Outsourcingnerd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I reject the premise that one company (Google) has the moral authority to label anything "Black" as in bad ( with its racial overtones) . To me "Black hat" is spamming and hacking. I'm of course aware of Google's definitions but as long as I conduct my business in a way that doesn't allow them or makes it unlikely they will sanction me according their rules thats the end of my concern. Look a t buying links. You will be hard pressed to find any SEO company that doesn't buy links at som point. Its rampant and pervasive. We all know that large and small companies buy links. Google knows it and has even been caught themselves doing it. Major retailers get ton loads of links not naturally but because they run million dollars campaigns that get people linking to them

I hear buying domains is black hat but what company out there doesn't buy up other companies and use their marketing assets? Companies like Adobe, Google, Microsoft, ABC, Disney, Microsoft and on and on give followed links to their partners and subsidiaries all on the basis of money exchanging hands.

Besides black hat has no definition anymore. you even have people running around claiming guest blogging is black hat because you are writing just for a link.

I agree - another known way to boost your rankings is a private blog network. I know several SEO companies that run and operate their own blog network.

So they have an advantage because they just need to distribute content in their own network.

A lot of people are saying that blog network are dead - yes, they one that have general access for a little monthly fee.

All it requires for Google is a buy access and test those networks and then de index the blogs within that particular network.

But the private network? No, they are working just fine.

One thing I think it is important to remember - negative SEO. Would it be fair that you could spam your competitor's site with a few thousand crappy links, and then he lost he rankings? no.

What happens is that Google simply removes the value from the spammy links.

Else you just buy access to a crap blog network, buy a few links to a site that is stupid enough to claim directly that they sell links, point the stuff to your competitor and the contact Google and tell about your "naughty competitor."

Google even considers giving the webmasters a tool to disallow links.

Here is what Matt Cutts from Google has to say.

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hilarious89

14 years ago

I think the best seo technique is white hat seo. Though black hat seo is very effective still for it your site can be banned at any time by the search engines.

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Daniel Ray

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GGpaul

Exactly when or what is black hat?

I'm just a bit confused.

In the end, are you violating the Google quality guidelines?

I ask myself if something is trying to 'trick' Google into thinking something is more than it actually is...

Here's an official Google blog post about quality that relates to your question.

Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Another step to reward high-quality sites

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retsek

14 years ago

blackhat, whitehat. I don't like using those words really ..cause it creates a separation; puts a label on people. On the other hand, there's people on both sides that proudly wear these labels.

Staying within Google's guidelines has alot to do with intent and execution. To illustrate that read this tweet from Cutts today. https://twitter.com/mattcutts/status/229955587536982016

I recommend reading those two links. The same general criteria can be applied to things like Guest Posts, Blog Comments, and even Directories.

In the end, if you want traffic from Google - you have to abide by their rules and guidelines. Likewise, if you can't follow Facebook guidelines or even the WSO guidelines here ..you're out.

So if you feel Google doesn't have the right to define what is right and what is wrong for THEIR own search results, you should probably block them with robots.txt and stop complaining.

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Daniel Ray

14 years ago

Originally Posted by retsek

So if you feel Google doesn't have the right to define what is right and what is wrong for THEIR own search results, you should probably block them with robots.txt and stop complaining.

I think you're being really harsh to the original poster. They were just saying that it's confusing... They were saying they didn't know if they were doing things wrong, and just asked for some direction.

Geez man, chill out a little bit.

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GGpaul

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Ray

I think you're being really harsh to the original poster. They were just saying that it's confusing... They were saying they didn't know if they were doing things wrong, and just asked for some direction.

Geez man, chill out a little bit.

No I don't think Retsek was directing that to me. He's just stating it. Besides I enjoy reading what Retsek has to say =).

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retsek

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Ray

I think you're being really harsh to the original poster. They were just saying that it's confusing... They were saying they didn't know if they were doing things wrong, and just asked for some direction.

That wasn't directed at the OP.

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by retsek

So if you feel Google doesn't have the right to define what is right and what is wrong for THEIR own search results, you should probably block them with robots.txt and stop complaining.

I don't think theres anyone in this thread that says Google can't define what is right and wrong for their own search engine. Where people become mindless drones is when they run around especially on forums behind Google and claim that this person or that site is doing something wrong or black as in bad (despite the clearly racist overtones of defining things wrong by color) because ONE company says it does not suit them.

But your point as to what people should do to their site if they don't like it is ridiculous, illogical and contradictory. I don't have to do anything to my site. Its my site. I have the same rights you are claiming for Google based on ownership. I don't need to put Robot.txt for them not to crawl MY site. It belongs to me and thats my choice. They don't ask me to sign any terms of service before they crawl my site.

SO if I want to buy a domain and set it up and they wish to crawl it and the links help me rank. Thats not my problem. Thats all on Google

. Frankly to be honest people running around on behalf of Google do more complaining and whining about rules than Google ever does. Google knows there are a whole lot of companies they like that have links based on finances not organic reasons and they don't really care that much (of course they will never say so)

You ought to know this - you are on record you would buy links and thats black hat according to many peoples definition but if someone wants to buy advertising fo their site theres no moral issue or anything "black" about them buying it anymore than its "black" for a company to take out advertising in a news paper.

Can Google claim its immoral if you don't use the nofollow tag? Companies can say anything they want but when I see all the big corporations and retailers that Google loves so much and rank very highly giving followed links to their partners, sister and affiliate sites I don't have to find the argument compelling

People need to learn to think for themselves not just mouth everything Google says. I go along with a good bit and lean alot more "white" hat than most but still got to engage the noggin and see where it just isn't consistent.

BY all means do your best not to be sanctioned by them but you don't have to drink all their koolaid

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retsek

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I don't think theres anyone in this thread that says Google can't define what is right and wrong for their own search engine.

Didn't you say this:

I reject the premise that one company (Google) has the moral authority to label anything "Black" as in bad

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you ? Aren't you saying that you reject the notion that Google has the right to decide what is wrong ? You didn't say search results, but if we're talking about Google -- we're obviously talking about inclusion and placement in their search results.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

But your point as to what people should do to their site if they don;t like 'it is ridiculous, illogical and contradictory. I don't have to do anything to my site. Its my site. I have the same rights you are claiming for Google based on ownership. I don't need to put Robot.txt for them not to crawl MY site. they don't ask me to sign any terms of service before they crawl my site.

Yeah that comment I made was harsh. Webmasters also have the same rights Google does. However, my point is Google doesn't owe anybody a slice of their traffic. If you want to contend for that traffic, you either follow their guidelines OR engage in tactics that don't. If Google penalizes sites in future because of those tactics, then that's their right.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

You ought to know this - you are on record you would buy links and thats black hat according to many peoples definition but if someone wants to buy advertising fo their site theres no moral issue or anything "black" about them buying it anymore than its "black" for a company to take out advertising in a news paper.

Yes, I buy links, that's my right. However, I understand that in regards to my site's relationship with Google that it is risky and may be harmful to that relationship. So ...if I want to keep that relationship in a good standing, i either don't do it or when I do it ...it's done in a way that doesn't seem paid.

It has nothing to do with morals. Buying links is simply against their guidelines. And google's definition of "paid links" is not crystal clear either. For example, Yahoo Directory can be considered a paid link, but it's not necessarily against their guidelines.

You can donate to a charity or sponsor a local event and they may link to you. That's not necessarily a paid link, and it goes back to intent. The big companies you talk about do that stuff all the time. I don't believe it's some of kind double standard on Google's part.

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by retsek

? Aren't you saying that you reject the notion that Google has the right to decide what is wrong ?

Of course I am. I flat out reject it. Now if somebody comes to me and says well this is wrong FOR ME then thats an entirely different point. In that case they are admitting to it being an issue of their own personal choice which I agree Google has the right to claim.. I reject the right of one company however to determine that something is just generally wrong just because they say so.

If Google penalizes sites in future because of those tactics, then that's their right.

Again Like I said no one has said otherwise. MY first and last post state that I do what I do and try and protect myself from sanctions they may decide to place. Do I therefore call my actions "black". nope.

It has nothing to do with morals. Buying links is simply against their guidelines.

Whether you choose to admit it or not "Black" and "white" hat have the connotations of wrong and right. We can play Ostrich but its a well known fact that "Black" hat implies doing something wrong.

You can donate to a charity or sponsor a local event and they may link to you. That's not necessarily a paid link, and it goes back to intent. The big companies you talk about do that stuff all the time. I don't believe it's some of kind double standard on Google's part.

IF you don't know what I am taking about then just say so - don't go inventing things that were never said AGAIN. This has nothing to do with sponsoring local events. Where did I say anything about sponsoring events (Seriously in EVERY conversation I have with you you INVENT something never said just to improve your point). I am talking about listing of Partners and affiliates and other sites owned by a company not sponsoring any charity or event :rolleyes:.

It is a double standard because it meets the definition not because you agree or don't agree. If a link cannot be paid for then a link on the basis of a financial relationship is a violation of that. Simple fact. There are ton loads of companies that give the entities followed links and even a certain company called Google has done it (seen it with my own eyes").

Originally Posted by retsek

By the way Mike, I am black just like you. I don't see the racial overtones.

Thats fine but if you are implying thats a unique perspective of mine then you would be generally uneducated to many racial debates that have gone on for many years. The use of the word black for something wrong and white for something good has a long history of controversy and many people of color have objected to colors being used that way.

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angelina10

14 years ago

I don't use black hat because it is illegal.

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Daniel Ray 14 years ago

Originally Posted by angelina10

I don't use black hat because it is illegal.

illegal? where would there be a law against black hat?

It does violate some policies, but I've never heard of any laws relating to black hat seo...
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GGpaul

14 years ago

I stopped using black hat. Hell, I don't even backlink at all -_- but focus mainly on-page.

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seoace

14 years ago

99% of the people here don't understand what is blackhat.

What most of the SEOs are doing is grey hat. Not black hat.

Guest blogging with your "targeted" keyword as anchor text? White hat? No, Grey hat.
Building web 2.0s? Grey hat.
Manual blog commenting on relevant niche blogs? Grey hat.

Whenever you build a link with the intention to increase your SERPs, that is grey hat. (Keyword: intention). Automation does not make the hat darker. Its the intention of manipulating the search engines to try to rank your site higher when you build a link back to your site with your anchor text. No matter if its manual or by automation.

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retsek

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seoace

Whenever you build a link with the intention to increase your SERPs, that is grey hat. (Keyword: intention). Automation does not make the hat darker. Its the intention of manipulating the search engines to try to rank your site higher when you build a link back to your site with your anchor text. No matter if its manual or by automation.

Spot on...

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Michael Nguyen

14 years ago

There is no hat in my book - All I care about is providing results to clients but at the same time making sure the website doesn't get deinex / penalized. I do what it takes to rank websites. Websites starts to rank well once you get into the grey hat side of things and your job is to push the greyhat boundaries

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papifiar

14 years ago

Blackhat in adsense is very risky, dear your account

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Tom Burlingham

14 years ago

I think seoace got it right about a lot of things people think of as whitehat are actually greyhat. For myself, I always ask "Is this technique making the web a better & more honest place?'