am i out of my depth? SEO Please help.

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right.. long story short(er)..

i have been doing some local SEO for some SME's around my local area, and have generally been quite successful. i have a fairly good 'gist' on how SEO works, and with local SEO its seems quite straight forward.. good keyword research, a targeted domain name, good relevant backlinks on relevant and social networking sites and minimal competition... simples. some of neat little tricks i have picked up from alot of you guys have worked a treat aswell!
(thanks

i have been trying to build up a client portfolio for local SEO in order to get myself more business and eventually make an income through it.. recently i have been approached by a company i tried to get a dropship account through (unsuccessfully), they are are national pond and aquatic supplier and they want me to do the SEO for a spin off sister site for them. GREAT NEWS!! i cannot turn down the opportunity and really need some advice if possible.
i feel i may have jumped in at the deep end a little, (which is the only way to get ahead these days so i have to go for it.)
my main problem being that as this is a sister site to there main site, and they are selling the same products to the same market and no doubt will be using the same keywords.. im worried i will not be able to compete with the competition. especially because i know one of the main sites i am competing againts is their main site (which i know is maintained by a large professional SEO company)
i am willing to put all the hard work (and more) in, as this could be a big break for me.

previously with other business i have worked with (literally only a few) it has been quite easy.. for instance, for a local photography agency, i did abit of research and found that the best keyword was "(area) photographers".. so to me, the only domain needed was "area-photographers.co.uk". with a few relevant backlinks and little competition for this keyword, it worked very well and shot it straight to number one under the chosen keyword..
this will not work for this new project as they have a domain and site already.
also, with photography being a pretty straight forward service, this made it all abit easier, the main and only keyword i felt i should optimise for was an easy choice. infact just the one keyword was enough to get traffic booming within less than 2 months!
but with a large pond/aquatic equipment site, there are alot of products, webpages and ALOT of keywords to optimise for..
is the principal the same with local and national SEO?
is it really just a simple case of relevant backlinks to your site and good keywords? i understand that with the new penguin update, techniques like article spinning are a no go now, and i should focus on social networks and relevant backlinks.. i have some cool little tricks from posts on here, but i was using them for sites/keywords that had hardly any competition..

What exactly do i need to do?! i know that seems like a very nieve question, but i have only really optimized a site for 1-3 keywords as it was all very niche targeted services. "basingstoke photographers" "aldermaston skip company" etc etc etc.

how exactly do i optimize for more than one keyword? again, nieve question, but is it simply a case of working your keywords into your content, and then having a good backlink network to the site? what about anchor text and stuff like that.. say im 'backlinking' and i leave a link on a relavant forum or similar.. do i anchor text a keyword? if so, which one? do i leave multiple links with different anchor text? this cant look good surely? also if i have backlinks to site, will that push my page rank up for all keywords, or does each backlink i produce have to correlate to a specific keyword? obviously the site's content will be full of keywords anyway "pond pumps" "aquatic lighting" "fish tank gravel" etc etc etc. so by generically backlinking with no anchor text will push the rank up for all the keywords within the content anyway wont it??

ANY general SEO help for a site like this is very much appreciated. as i said this is a massive transition for me, going from local to national. and all help is very much appreciated.
ps i will have admin access to the site, so meta tags and on page SEO will be easy.

i apologise for the essay, i do like a good rant.
thanks again for any help in advance.
#backlink help #depth #national seo #newbie #seo #seo help
  • Profile picture of the author curious-george
    geez just seen how long this post actually is..
    a major thanks to anyone that actually reads the whole thing and replies!
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  • Profile picture of the author alexmw106
    do there domains have age? If so u could use senuke and build a pyramid with relevent content, then xrumer those links. Build lots of these pyramids.
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  • Profile picture of the author rightseosteps
    Link wheels and pyramids are less effective now, just guest blog for related sites like your own with backlinks to your site. Get more authority links, some .edu and .gov links should do the trick. If not i suggest you sign up to linkvana as they have a very great network of sites related to yours for contextual link building. Something like 150 word blurp links which is great for extra seo push, but it is expensive but way better then link wheels as google is becoming smarter over the years. Basically the more relevant links you get the better your rankings get, it's no longer the "get as many links from anywhere" anymore...
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by alexmw106 View Post

      do there domains have age? If so u could use senuke and build a pyramid with relevent content, then xrumer those links. Build lots of these pyramids.
      Originally Posted by rightseosteps View Post

      Link wheels and pyramids are less effective now, just guest blog for related sites like your own with backlinks to your site. Get more authority links, some .edu and .gov links should do the trick. If not i suggest you sign up to linkvana as they have a very great network of sites related to yours for contextual link building. Something like 150 word blurp links which is great for extra seo push, but it is expensive but way better then link wheels as google is becoming smarter over the years. Basically the more relevant links you get the better your rankings get, it's no longer the "get as many links from anywhere" anymore...
      Jesus. These are some bad suggestions. SEnuke and Xrumer are fine for throw away domains. You can't just blast links with a real business though. It is completely different than SEO for IM'ers.

      And .edu and .gov links and Linkvana? Really? Linkvana is garbage. .edu and .gov links are nothing special, especially the ones you can buy. The ones you can buy are complete trash.

      I don't have much time right now, but a few things... get them into authority directories like Yahoo, DMOZ, Best of the Web.

      I would probably be generating a keyword list of at least 100 keywords for a project like that. Maybe a lot more.

      Also, you said they have a site already maintained by a large SEO firm that is ranking quite well. Copy what they are doing. Analyze the shit out of that site. Comb through their backlink profile. Get as many of the same links as you can. Figure out what keywords they are targeting. They may have found some you miss in your research. They are giving you the blueprint right there.

      Lastly, it sounds like this project might be a bit out of your league. There is nothing wrong with telling the client that and recommending they find someone else. In fact, that might be the best thing to do. Alternatively, find someone that does know what they are doing and outsource the work to them. Maybe they will even teach you along the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author GodMode52
    Yeah you probably went too far here, there's a big difference in ranking money keywords and ranking local keywords. Homever make sure that you have a decent budget to play with , buy some high pr posts , keep anchor diversity etc. and that's it.
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  • Profile picture of the author limestone614
    Mike has nailed it, you have a model:

    Also, you said they have a site already maintained by a large SEO firm that is ranking quite well. Copy what they are doing. Analyze the shit out of that site. Comb through their backlink profile. Get as many of the same links as you can. Figure out what keywords they are targeting. They may have found some you miss in your research. They are giving you the blueprint right there.
    There's your answer right there, couldn't have word edit better myself.

    Might have to put your hand in your pocket, (their pocket) for some news links, they do wonders if on local and national newspaper sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author curious-george
    thanks for all your help guys!! very appreciated! how do i go about seeing exactly what there doing? is the a particular bit of software or a site where i can check all the backlinks for the main site?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kreator517
      Originally Posted by curious-george View Post

      how do i go about seeing exactly what there doing? is the a particular bit of software or a site where i can check all the backlinks for the main site?
      I use IBP to analyze SEO. Program takes a while and is really resource hungry but even the free trial version will show your their entire linking strategy, Allowing you to see what kind of sites have been linked to them, as well as enabling you to deduce the anchor-text rations. Run the "Google Optimization" Report first

      As for strategy, This project needs quality over quantity for your direct links.


      This being a corporate client (And surly paying corporate-level fees), you surely can afford to outsource a few things.

      . Make sure that at least 50% of your anchor text is either the naked url or generic text like "Click Here", "Visit us", etc. Divide the remaining 50% on the clients target keywords. If they specified a primary, you can still get away with optimizing up to about 20% of the total for a single keyword.

      Bite the bullet and manually create high-quality Web 2.0, Press releases, etc on high PR sites that automated programs don't work on (Hubpages, Squidoo, etc) then outsource the building of the tier 2 and 3 links

      This way, your client's money site will be 100% insulated and Panda-Penguin proof to boot.

      I'd be happy to handle some Tier 2 and 3 back-linking for you for a reasonable fee. PM me for details.
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  • Profile picture of the author Samung19
    Try Majestic SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author curious-george
    thanks guys! all this advice is literally priceless to me!
    to be honest, this client isnt going to be paying full whack, the fact they have approached me is because they are looking for a cheaper alternative to the current SEO company they use for the main site. so i wont be charging loads.. but the project alone is priceless to me as i learn best when 'on the job' as it were.. so this will hopefully teach me alot.
    your comments have been great, and after reading them and taking them in.. heres what i have come up with.. please tell me if im missing something, it seems alittle bare to be honest.

    Keyword research - i will look at the current SEO companies keywords, use the same ones and through further reasearch find some hidden niche keywords aswell.
    i may look to buy some software for this.. any suggestions on some good, cheap/free SEO software? i have seen some very good reviews on the 'Traffic Travis' SEO research software.. with it being free i trust the reviews, as they cannot be affiliated. is this worth getting?? or is there a better alternative?

    on site SEO - i have been told i will have full admin access to the site and so i will be able to edit meta tags and content aswell.. is this needed?? for a site like this, most of the keywords will be staright forward.. "pond pumps" "external filters" etc.. all of these will be on the page alot anyway.. will i need to do any on page SEO?? if so what would be suggested?? usually with previous clients i have built the site through 1&1 for them, so i include my keywords within the content/meta tags. but with this new project.. product pages will have the direct keyword on it already. so not certain it will be needed.
    ???

    Build backlinks - this is pretty self explanatory, from what you guys have said, it seems that quality links, as a posed to quantity are better for a site link this.. does this mean relvant forums and blogs are a no go then?? i have a affilate squidoo lens about a particular fish and its pulling in 3-400 visits a month. definatly worth putting the link on there, is it worth commenting on similar blogs with backlinks?.. backlinks to be 50% naked/generic anchor text. with the other 50% to be keywords from my list. i do like a good rant, so i will be building my own relevant blogs (product reviews etc) all linking back relevantly.. for example i will do a pond pump blog, keyworded right up with links back to the site.. will the link need to go back to the home page or the 'pond pump' section of the site? this is a big question actually.. should all my backlinks link back to the home page or the section of the page the link is relevant to? i will include links in directories and social bookmarkers. i will also use social media to produce backlinks, a couple of relevant videos on youtube, again with keyworded anchor text in description and title's.. reviews etc. twitter account linking back, facebook aswell. errrm, maybe a full high quality completly original articles all over 400+ words linking back.. i will also ask them to put a link on the main site aswell, as that does very well on google so no doubt has a good PR. so will be a good link to have as very relevant. maybe a full business review sites aswell.. i know that Qype has been bought by google, so might be worth creating a review page and posting a link on there.. also to try and get links on the same sites that the current SEO company has done for the main site. so through research, find where those links are, and get one aswell... NIEVE QUESTION ALERT : what does tier 2/3 etc mean?? with regards to backlinking?

    is that really it?? i feel like im missing something major.. it cant be that 'simple' can it??

    thanks again guys!!
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by curious-george View Post

      thanks guys! all this advice is literally priceless to me!
      to be honest, this client isnt going to be paying full whack, the fact they have approached me is because they are looking for a cheaper alternative to the current SEO company they use for the main site. so i wont be charging loads.. but the project alone is priceless to me as i learn best when 'on the job' as it were.. so this will hopefully teach me alot.
      your comments have been great, and after reading them and taking them in.. heres what i have come up with.. please tell me if im missing something, it seems alittle bare to be honest.
      I'll put this as nicely as I can. Under no circumstance should you be learning SEO "on the job" by f***ing around with someone's real business.

      I'm not a doctor, but maybe I will put a sign out, bring in a few patients, and learn as I go. :rolleyes:

      Originally Posted by curious-george View Post

      Keyword research - i will look at the current SEO companies keywords, use the same ones and through further reasearch find some hidden niche keywords aswell.
      i may look to buy some software for this.. any suggestions on some good, cheap/free SEO software? i have seen some very good reviews on the 'Traffic Travis' SEO research software.. with it being free i trust the reviews, as they cannot be affiliated. is this worth getting?? or is there a better alternative?
      Traffic Travis, Market Samurai, and all the other keyword tools out there are a complete waste of time. You need the Google Keyword Tool. You will probably want something to analyze the backlinks of the top competitors. I use SEOmoz and SEO SpyGlass.

      Originally Posted by curious-george View Post

      on site SEO - i have been told i will have full admin access to the site and so i will be able to edit meta tags and content aswell.. is this needed?? for a site like this, most of the keywords will be staright forward.. "pond pumps" "external filters" etc.. all of these will be on the page alot anyway.. will i need to do any on page SEO?? if so what would be suggested?? usually with previous clients i have built the site through 1&1 for them, so i include my keywords within the content/meta tags. but with this new project.. product pages will have the direct keyword on it already. so not certain it will be needed.
      ???
      There should not be any keywords in the meta keyword tag. Leave that empty. As or the rest of this, see my first point. There is a lot more onpage that needs done. There should be an audit of the site to look for canonical errors, duplicate content, broken links, keyword stuffing (believe it or not, some web designers still think it is a good idea to put keywords in hidden text :confused, proper site navigation, good internal links, crawling errors, etc.

      Originally Posted by curious-george View Post

      Build backlinks - this is pretty self explanatory, from what you guys have said, it seems that quality links, as a posed to quantity are better for a site link this.. does this mean relvant forums and blogs are a no go then?? i have a affilate squidoo lens about a particular fish and its pulling in 3-400 visits a month. definatly worth putting the link on there, is it worth commenting on similar blogs with backlinks?.. backlinks to be 50% naked/generic anchor text. with the other 50% to be keywords from my list. i do like a good rant, so i will be building my own relevant blogs (product reviews etc) all linking back relevantly.. for example i will do a pond pump blog, keyworded right up with links back to the site.. will the link need to go back to the home page or the 'pond pump' section of the site? this is a big question actually.. should all my backlinks link back to the home page or the section of the page the link is relevant to? i will include links in directories and social bookmarkers. i will also use social media to produce backlinks, a couple of relevant videos on youtube, again with keyworded anchor text in description and title's.. reviews etc. twitter account linking back, facebook aswell. errrm, maybe a full high quality completly original articles all over 400+ words linking back.. i will also ask them to put a link on the main site aswell, as that does very well on google so no doubt has a good PR. so will be a good link to have as very relevant. maybe a full business review sites aswell.. i know that Qype has been bought by google, so might be worth creating a review page and posting a link on there.. also to try and get links on the same sites that the current SEO company has done for the main site. so through research, find where those links are, and get one aswell... NIEVE QUESTION ALERT : what does tier 2/3 etc mean?? with regards to backlinking?
      For a real business, I would never do blog commenting, forum spam (or signatures), or any of that kind of linking. When you are doing SEO for a company like this, you hold their online reputation in your hands. The chances of a potential customer seeing any of these links is slim, but if they do, it looks pretty low class to be building links that way. I do not remember seeing companies like Apple, Best Buy, etc. building links through blog comments.

      Stay away from autoapprove shitty directories. The ones that most IM'ers use. Quality business directories, especially the paid ones can be worthwhile. Things like Yahoo, DMOZ, Best of the Web. I would probably set a budget of $1200 for just directories.

      Again, the other company has already given you a blueprint. Start there.

      Really, it sounds like you are way over your head. I hope you are being honest with them and telling them that you really do not know what you are doing. They should know what they are paying for. If not, well I hope you do not do any serious damage to their site that cannot be fixed by the next SEO.

      I will get off my soapbox now.
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