Google Just Penalize Another Link Network

ronrule

14 years ago

So how do services like text-link-ads stay in business? It's no secret why they exist.

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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Once Cutts started to refer to the 'naughty Russians' it was only a matter of time.

But if Google has got to SAPE, I doubt the naughty Russians will just give up. They'll find something new if they haven't already.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

Once Cutts started to refer to the 'naughty Russians' it was only a matter of time.

Yep it was/is only a matter of time. Kiss of death when Cutts comes out and says something. There was a Sape seller in the forums last week claiming it couldn't happen because Sape was different. No doubt Google will not be able to get every site but they can get enough that no one will want to sign up there and take the risk
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FakeItTilYouMakeIt

Banned 14 years ago

good riddance. been fighting with them for a month

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challanger 14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

But if Google has got to SAPE, I doubt the naughty Russians will just give up. They'll find something new if they haven't already.

Its obvious they will find something else. this war is going on

Originally Posted by ronrule

So how do services like text-link-ads stay in business? It's no secret why they exist.

Just wait and watch with time these will be affected soon too. :-)

Originally Posted by FakeItTilYouMakeIt

good riddance. been fighting with them for a month

matter of time
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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by FakeItTilYouMakeIt

good riddance. been fighting with them for a month

Have you noticed a difference?

Some SAPE sites taking a hit may just be part of whatever update is going on and not the downfall of their links. Very interesting though.

BTW, thanks for the spam

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FakeItTilYouMakeIt

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

Have you noticed a difference?

Some SAPE sites taking a hit may just be part of whatever update is going on and not the downfall of their links. Very interesting though.

BTW, thanks for the spam

You are very welcome!

No difference yet hummmm

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Marc_L

14 years ago

I don't think it's SAPE getting "slapped". Probably just an algo update and everybody is just panicking.

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ronrule

14 years ago

It brings up a good point though... at what point do you draw the line between an "ad" and a "link"?

Years ago I used to buy ads from a site called IndustryBrains, they got bought up by someone else and changed the model, but back then (2003-ish?) they placed text-based ads on a lot of prominent sites like Entrepreneur.com and others. They were not a "link buying" service, but a genuine advertising service. These ads were a simple text link, but they were highly visible and converted really well.

Today it seems those same ads would be considered spam.

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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

It brings up a good point though... at what point do you draw the line between an "ad" and a "link"?
.

A paid link by Google definition is one that passes page rank.

An ad should have nofollow attribute applied or use a script etc that doesn't pass PR.

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ronrule

14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

A paid link by Google definition is one that passes page rank.

An ad should have nofollow attribute applied or use a script etc that doesn't pass PR.

I guess my point is that not everyone who is buying or selling advertising is doing so with PageRank in mind. I still meet site owners who have no idea what PageRank even is, yet they're selling ads.

For example, a Jeep enthusiast forum selling ads to local shops... and knowing some of these guys I can guarantee you that neither the buyer nor seller have SEO in mind. When these small and backyard garages want a link that says "Jeep repair" or something, they're placing that ad because they want forum members to click it. The site owners have no idea what nofollow/dofollow is.

I dunno man, just seems to me like Google is just trying to preserve their position as "the only scraper site". Their whole business model is based on scraping content and putting text ads next to it, but whenever anyone else does it somehow they find a way to make it all about them.

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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

For example, a Jeep enthusiast forum selling ads to local shops... and knowing some of these guys I can guarantee you that neither the buyer nor seller have SEO in mind. When these small and backyard garages want a link that says "Jeep repair" or something, they're placing that ad because they want forum members to click it. The site owners have no idea what nofollow/dofollow is.

I get where you're coming from but it's like not knowing the speed limit isn't an excuse for speeding.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

after reading the forums that seroundtable is using for their reports I am not convinced. Seems the opinions are split on whether scape had anything to do with it.
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ronrule

14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

I get where you're coming from but it's like not knowing the speed limit isn't an excuse for speeding.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I mean, it's basically just one company making up rules dictating how all other companies are "allowed" to have revenue online. It's too bad Microsoft never got more traction with Bing, it would be nice to have some viable alternatives. Ah well, getting off topic now...

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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I mean, it's basically just one company making up rules dictating how all other companies are "allowed" to have revenue online. It's too bad Microsoft never got more traction with Bing, it would be nice to have some viable alternatives. Ah well, getting off topic now...

I'm not sure what the problem is. At no point were Google a charity, public service or government department.

Sure they have guidelines on how to use their product but these guidelines are no secret. They're published and as a user you're encouraged to understand them.

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ronrule

14 years ago

Originally Posted by PaulBaker

I'm not sure what the problem is. At no point were Google a charity, public service or government department.

Sure they have guidelines on how to use their product but these guidelines are no secret. They're published and as a user you're encouraged to understand them.

That's not what I'm saying, man...

I know this is a stretch for a lot of people on this forum given what we all do for a living, my point was that there are a lot of people out there who run websites and don't pay any attention to "marketing them" or search engines. The Jeep forum I mentioned was just one example - there are thousands of enthusiast groups, racing clubs, offroad clubs, etc. These are run by guys who aren't web marketers, don't market their sites, and don't read Google's guidelines because SEO is the furthest thing from their mind. They're local clubs and groups, and they pay for club events by selling ads on their site to local vendors in their niche.

They have no reason to go look up Google's guidelines because they aren't marketing their sites or trying to drive traffic, it's all word of mouth from locals. Sites like that, and their sponsors who also aren't internet marketers, could be unfairly penalized because in Google's eyes they're "selling links" when really it's just a local or backyard shop who's supporting the club and wanting to reach their members.

Granted most of these types of clubs are small enough that they don't really appear on the radar in the first place, I'm just saying it's a bit heavy-handed on Google's part to assume that all links are for the sole purpose of passing PR unless explicitly marked as nofollow.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

I'm just saying it's a bit heavy-handed on Google's part to assume that all links are for the sole purpose of passing PR unless explicitly marked as nofollow.

You certainly are not the first to feel that way about google. The sentiment is popular after an algo change especially. However I can't see how it applies to Sape. They are well known for having hacked sites in their network. Google may not get all their sites but they can make it very risky to deal with them and frankly they should. Hackers profiting from hacking is bad for everyone.
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PaulBaker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

Granted most of these types of clubs are small enough that they don't really appear on the radar in the first place, I'm just saying it's a bit heavy-handed on Google's part to assume that all links are for the sole purpose of passing PR unless explicitly marked as nofollow.

I think you're worried about unnecessary stuff here. The guideline about paid links is for Google to protect itself against obvious attempts at manipulating the SERPs. I'm sure if any member of the webspam team ended up on one of the enthusiast sites they could/would exercise some discretion. I'm pretty sure the algo is unaware if money has changed hands or not and therefore not applying an automatic penalty.

anyway, back to the topic.

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challanger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

It brings up a good point though... at what point do you draw the line between an "ad" and a "link"?

Years ago I used to buy ads from a site called IndustryBrains, they got bought up by someone else and changed the model, but back then (2003-ish?) they placed text-based ads on a lot of prominent sites like Entrepreneur.com and others. They were not a "link buying" service, but a genuine advertising service. These ads were a simple text link, but they were highly visible and converted really well.

Today it seems those same ads would be considered spam.

Probably right....

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

It brings up a good point though... at what point do you draw the line between an "ad" and a "link"?

Sape wasn't exactly just ads vs links though. Scape is well known for having links on hacked sites which is beyond black hat.
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Cash37 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

It brings up a good point though... at what point do you draw the line between an "ad" and a "link"?

NoFollow tag would be the "official" answer
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IM Ash

14 years ago

From SearchEngineLand:

There are forum thread discussions at Black Hat World and Black Hat Group that have webmasters and SEOs claiming it was SAPE. One webmaster wrote:

Anyone that use SAPE links see huge drop in rankings today?

Many agreed, but not all.

That should have been: "Many disagreed, but not all".

Talk about poor reporting and what is worse - people just accept what was written as factual!

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FakeItTilYouMakeIt

Banned 14 years ago

Here is my theory... it is going to be very very difficult to take down SAPE. They don't have one big traceable network, they have small (ok not small) collections of hacked sites. They sell a set package of links to a limited number of clients, 200 seems to be the magic number. Once the hacked sites in that collection are "full" they move on to filling the next collection of hacked pages, no overlap. So basically you could get the list of URLs for one of their "collections" and the list of client's links they are "injecting" (list was identical on all the hacked sites I found) but so what? Google takes down that relatively small network and they just switch their clients to a new collection. Small potatoes. Hope they penalize the folks buying these links though at the same point could be clueless laymen trusting a shady SEO. Tough call

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MikeFriedman

14 years ago

The "evidence" Barry presented is horseshit. One is a thread with absolutely no agreement or conclusive evidence that Sape was hit at all. The other is a completely empty thread.

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

The "evidence" Barry presented is horseshit. One is a thread with absolutely no agreement or conclusive evidence that Sape was hit at all. The other is a completely empty thread.

Exactly this.

They confirmed there's a rumor, lol.

...besides, If SAPE is posting links on unsuspecting sites/pages they don't own, that would be literally impossible to shut down. Good luck trying to hit a target that never stops moving.

Obviously these types of links would only be useful for churn & burn sites, which makes the target that much more difficult to hit (for Google).

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PaulBaker 14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

They confirmed there's a rumor, lol..

Quote of the day.

Obviously these types of links would only be useful for churn & burn sites

WSO of the day.
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- yukon Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by PaulBaker
  
  Quote of the day.
  
  WSO of the day.
  
  Lol, the only WSO you would see from me would be pay by Western Union, forget that Paypal refund crap.
  
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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

...besides, If SAPE is posting links on unsuspecting sites/pages they don't own, that would be literally impossible to shut down. Good luck trying to hit a target that never stops moving.

People never learn. This has been said about every link scheme that has ever been created. Shutting down has never been about getting every last site. It just has to do with making it so that the scheme is no longer profitable for those running it or too risky for those using it. Absolutely no network is impossible to track down enough to really hurt it if it sells links to the public in a free flowing system.

Every network owner who allows people to place links in their network without very close moderation has one serious disadvantage - the "stupid" or "Greedy" customer. People say as long as you use Sape intelligently you will be fine. However multitudes won't and its those that can unravel large chunks of any network. You find one guy/gal that is linking to the same site from ten thousand different Sape network sites and you can then cross reference with all the sites linking FROm those pages. Further you will have customers trying to rank for terms that are dead giveaway for the "spaminess" of what they are trying to achieve. this is why alot of services went undergound and stopped advertising to the public.

The greatest "footprint" of a public network isn't anything on the pages before the links are placed. Its the customer's link and the fact that it can be cross checked. Google WILL slap Sape. OF course since they know the size of it they will wait until they can do so with programmatic assistance. Doesn't mean Sape will go out of business entirely but much less people will be willing to use them when they hear the horror stories of customer sites getting penalized (not just network sites deindexed)

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yukon

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

People never learn. This has been said about every link scheme that has ever been created. Shutting down has never been about getting every last site. It just has to do with making it so that the scheme is no longer profitable for those running it or too risky for those using it. Absolutely no network is impossible to track down enough to really hurt it if it sells links to the public in a free flowing system.

Every network owner who allows people to place links in their network without very close moderation has one serious disadvantage - the "stupid" or "Greedy" customer. People say as long as you use Sape intelligently you will be fine. However multitudes won't and its those that can unravel large chunks of any network. You find one guy/gal that is linking to the same site from ten thousand different Sape network sites and you can then cross reference with all the sites linking FROm those pages. Further you will have customers trying to rank for terms that are dead giveaway for the "spaminess" of what they are trying to achieve. this is why alot of services went undergound and stopped advertising to the public.

The greatest "footprint" of a public network isn't anything on the pages before the links are placed. Its the customer's link and the fact that it can be cross checked. Google WILL slap Sape. OF course since they know the size of it they will wait until they can do so with programmatic assistance. Doesn't mean Sape will go out of business entirely but much less people will be willing to use them when they hear the horror stories of customer sites getting penalized (not just network sites deindexed)

If people are building these types of links for long term sites, well, that's their problem. They'll figure out they screwed up sooner or later. Still, a churn & burn site wouldn't be a big deal If a guy didn't mind rebuilding every few weeks. Google isn't going to deindex/discount the entire web, so the guys hacking sites/pages for links have an endless supply of link sources.

For the record, I don't give a $#@% about SAPE links, too much work IMO.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Google isn't going to deindex/discount the entire web, so the guys hacking sites/pages for links have an endless supply of link sources.

Agreed...Thats true enough plus others will always pop up (there are already others just like it) even if sape does go out of business. Sape however has come from the undergound status to the point where middlemen are selling them as a service for lots of people who are not into churn and burn. That seems to me why they are even being talked about in regard to Google taking action. SO my comments was in that regard. Google can no more totally eradicate hackers than the government can get rid of all weed but if things just get too above board you can expect some clamping down

Churn and burn is overrated to me. Its just my personality. I rather work on something that has a future and regular income without all the drama of having to start over and over and over again. I got into my own business for security,equity, being in control and less drama.
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Marc_L

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Doesn't mean Sape will go out of business entirely but much less people will be willing to use them when they hear the horror stories of customer sites getting penalized (not just network sites deindexed)

From what I have seen this is already happening. The more stories like this that get put out the more likely they stay away from SAPE.

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Lanx

14 years ago

the thing is, google is an artificial authority, they only have made up rules that we have to follow...

now this is different than googles rules for ppc, that is TOTALLY fine, that is their network and all that, and basically they look bad if they have 10,000 pron ads.

however, their rules for search are inane, they are basically bullying the www, with their values, because, they have money.

what do they do? they collect data.

ie has been a leader for a long time (yes we all know it sucks)

then firefox takes root

google comes out with chrome, it calls home... oh well

google pays firefox to have default search google...

google develops an entire eco system (android) just to be in that spot

now we can applaud google for taking these reactive decisions, which by all accounts are correct, however,... they are still manipulating a free and open www.

while it's true no one is "forcing" you be on googlebot,
bing/yahoo sucks
they even index slow

it's like saying... you could setup your own solar power in your backyard if you don't want to pay the ONE and ONLY electric company...

google cannot target sape, sape from what little some of us know or share has been around for 5 years, and that other search engine (yandex?) can't even touch it.

google probably made their usual "shotgun" approach to an update/patch and that's just moving waves.

since some of us are fighting/using sape and we all saw that idiot cutts tweet about russians, that's what we're looking for.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lanx

google cannot target sape, sape from what little some of us know or share has been around for 5 years, and that other search engine (yandex?) can't even touch it.

Thats just wishful thinking if you think about it. I see alot of Sape sellers claiming this because Sape is so big. However there are more ways to hit a service than getting all their sites. You just have to get enough of their customers. The idea (not stated by you mind you) that Sape has no footprint is also false. Simple cross checking a hundred found sites with their customer's website gives anyone with a backlink checker thousands of other customers. Google would take time to do it because instead or running a checker they would want to do it programmatically.

never say never
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Lanx

14 years ago

i would actually like to see them target sape, kinda thorny in a niche i have.

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MikeFriedman

14 years ago

Pretty good example of link bait. I'm sure that article is getting linked to from every IM and SEO forum on the planet right now.

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Pretty good example of link bait. I'm sure that article is getting linked to from every IM and SEO forum on the planet right now.

Plus Barry has a sweet setup. He constantly posts articles that get mad links using nothing but content from forums as a source while the rest of us have to do real research.
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nik0

Banned 14 years ago

People are just plain stupid, I knew about SAPE for over a year and always kept it quite, by the time I mentioned it on this forum there were already 3-4 people reselling these links.

Anyway, as the network contains a lot of hacked sites it would be pretty disastrous for the unaware webmasters that see their site getting deindexed.

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challanger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marc_L

From what I have seen this is already happening. The more stories like this that get put out the more likely they stay away from SAPE.

Originally Posted by nik0

Anyway, as the network contains a lot of hacked sites it would be pretty disastrous for the unaware webmasters that see their site getting deindexed.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Churn and burn is overrated to me. Its just my personality. I rather work on something that has a future and regular income without all the drama of having to start over and over and over again. I got into my own business for security,equity, being in control and less drama.

Originally Posted by yukon

For the record, I don't give a $#@% about SAPE links, too much work IMO.

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Pretty good example of link bait. I'm sure that article is getting linked to from every IM and SEO forum on the planet right now.

All you guys should check this

http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...why-we-do.html

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Becker13 Banned 14 years ago

Even if SAPE did not get hit, the network pretty much sealed its fate the second they got big.

I love how people think Google is like the man watching their every SEO move...But is to stupid to do BASIC stuff like watch black hat world and WF to catch blatant networks like sape

Cmon now....Large scale mass advertised networks are a thing of the past...If your putting your sites or even worse, clients sites on these your out of your mind

Do yourself a favor a build your own private network. 100x more effective and 100x more safe.
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CTRTheme

Banned 14 years ago

Buildtherank and SAPE private blog network got hit? What's next? ALN?

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Becker13

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by CTRTheme

Buildtherank and SAPE private blog network got hit? What's next? ALN?

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CTRTheme

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Becker13

Google is cracking down on blog network every day. Please avoid joining private blog network. If you want just create one by yourself. But it is expensive to buy a lot of C IP.

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dennis09

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CTRTheme

Google is cracking down on blog network every day. Please avoid joining private blog network. If you want just create one by yourself. But it is expensive to buy a lot of C IP.

HINT: A network isn't "private" if others are allowed in.

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MikeFriedman 14 years ago

Originally Posted by RogerMayer

so is SAPE a public network?

If anyone else knows about it, it is a public network.
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dennis09 14 years ago

Originally Posted by RogerMayer

so is SAPE a public network?

Can you, Google or anybody else buy a link? Take that answer and apply it to my previous post.
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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Becker13

I don't care what any of you say. You all just jealous - When CTR releases his/her content creation bot I am buying that sucker. Let that loose on a blog and I can have 500 pages of content in a day or two then rinse and repeat. Flip KM and Wicked Article Creator. It will smoke them all like Usain Bolt versus the Moonwalk.

Warock Content Robot RULES!!!

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nik0

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I don't care what any of you say. You all just jealous - When CTR releases his/her content creation bot I am buying that sucker. Let that loose on a blog and I can have 500 pages of content in a day or two then rinse and repeat.

I am with you!

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wpxo

14 years ago

Yes, what CTR is doing is a more viable and long-term strategy than building 1 page sites and trying to get them ranked in Google.

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FredJones

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

I dunno man, just seems to me like Google is just trying to preserve their position as "the only scraper site". Their whole business model is based on scraping content and putting text ads next to it, but whenever anyone else does it somehow they find a way to make it all about them.

Could not agree more. Google, to me, seems to want to become the only "go ogle" player in the market.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Churn and burn is overrated to me. Its just my personality. I rather work on something that has a future and regular income without all the drama of having to start over and over and over again. I got into my own business for security,equity, being in control and less drama.

While there's no universal observation that can be made about this, I personally prefer to go this route also.

And then, I remember a bad Panda hurt that I have had in 2011 - Panda, which was meant to be for content originality quality etc, and nothing to do with backlinks - and that one site hit had cost me $5,000 per month thanks to a false positive from Google (I had written the content, so I knew exactly what was written, that it was perfectly original novel high quality etc etc etc)... So even though you may build your best website and web asset which is clean, unfortunately Google can still go badly wrong. Not that it means you should also be badly wrong and use the churn-and-burn as your strategy, but unfortunately being clean also guarantees nothing.

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