54 replies
  • SEO
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I'm fazing out of SEO because Google seems to be clamping down on us smaller players. Facebook and Big have made the entry point into PPC much easier recently and that's where I'm at. What about you?

Buddy
#ppc #seo
  • Profile picture of the author joekoffi
    Originally Posted by BillyPilgrim View Post

    I'm fazing out of SEO because Google seems to be clamping down on us smaller players. Facebook and Big have made the entry point into PPC much easier recently and that's where I'm at. What about you?

    Buddy
    Facebook has made it quite easy to go with social PPC these days but not being keyword based, it's still less effective compared with search PPC
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    I hate PPC but yes I think that's where things are at currently. Google seems to hate small sites which is fustrating.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    PPC if you have the funds. Use SEO just as resource material for the content, like a thesaurus. SEO is nothing to rely on for your main source of traffic, unless you're doing hit and run type junk.
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  • Profile picture of the author tristatemedia
    i agree...fb is good but not for keyword ppc. i think the gateway to im is learning keyword research even if you outsource it. keyword research is a must for ppc and for seo.....no way around it............
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  • Profile picture of the author loaf1011
    PPC is scalable while SEO is not. If you rank #1 even on a high-volume keyword then your traffic is still limited. If you want to double your traffic you can't. If you want to double your traffic with PPC you can overnight!
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    • Profile picture of the author stodog77
      Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

      PPC is scalable while SEO is not. If you rank #1 even on a high-volume keyword then your traffic is still limited. If you want to double your traffic you can't. If you want to double your traffic with PPC you can overnight!
      SEO is not scalable and you can't double your traffic?

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      • Profile picture of the author loaf1011
        Originally Posted by stodog77 View Post

        SEO is not scalable and you can't double your traffic?

        You rank number one for something like "car insurance." Tell me how you're going to double your traffic.
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        • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
          Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

          You rank number one for something like "car insurance." Tell me how you're going to double your traffic.
          By ranking high for different but related searches? You know, doing pretty much the same stuff you'd do with PPC.

          However, it would seem like a position where doubling the traffic isn't really the first consideration. I'd try to double the conversions.
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          • Profile picture of the author loaf1011
            Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

            By ranking high for different but related searches? You know, doing pretty much the same stuff you'd do with PPC.

            However, it would seem like a position where doubling the traffic isn't really the first consideration. I'd try to double the conversions.
            ...and how long is that going to take you? Versus with PPC I can double my traffic literally overnight.
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            • Profile picture of the author PBScott
              Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

              ...and how long is that going to take you? Versus with PPC I can double my traffic literally overnight.
              PPC is definatly the easiest way to get more people, however people should be thinking in terms of profit, which one will double your profit faster, if PPC does it faster, that is where you should spend your time.

              SEO is generally a one time investment, everyone should do SEO each time they create a new page.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
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              Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

              ...and how long is that going to take you? Versus with PPC I can double my traffic literally overnight.
              Seriously?

              I have organic keywords that have ranked for years. Cost me practically nothing long term.
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              • Profile picture of the author PBScott
                Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                Seriously?

                I have organic keywords that have ranked for years. Cost me practically nothing long term.
                With PPC you could get a twenty million people per day boost if you want to pay for it... doesn't mean it's wise... but you could.

                You seem to be thinking in terms ROI yukon, and that is really the only sensible way to think.
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            • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
              Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

              ...and how long is that going to take you? Versus with PPC I can double my traffic literally overnight.
              Well, if the operative word in your first comment really is "overnight" you're technically speaking right. I didn't find it relevant enough, because I don't think it's how you should approach advertising. You might plan and execute for weeks to "increase traffic overnight" especially if it's a high-value campaign.

              SEO might take some time, but you've already done some of the work to rank so high in the first place.
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              Links in signature will not help your SEO. Not on this site, and not on any other forum.
              Who told me this? An ex Google web spam engineer.

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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
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          Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

          You rank number one for something like "car insurance." Tell me how you're going to double your traffic.
          Rank for buy auto insurance.

          If you ranked #1 for a root keyword like auto insurance it only gets easier to rank additional relevant keywords (more targeted traffic).

          Why would you only rank a single keyword/page when you've ranked a major root keyword (ex: auto insurance)? That's a total waste.
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        • Profile picture of the author stodog77
          Originally Posted by loaf1011 View Post

          You rank number one for something like "car insurance." Tell me how you're going to double your traffic.
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      • Profile picture of the author dennis09
        Originally Posted by stodog77 View Post

        SEO is not scalable and you can't double your traffic?


        He said overnight...

        Anyway, I prefer PPC but use them both. PPC for instant traffic and taking care of conversion issues before the SEO traffic kicks in. Iv'e also found it easier to land PPC clients than SEO but of course I have my own way of doing things.
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        • Profile picture of the author stodog77
          Originally Posted by dennis09 View Post

          He said overnight...
          He said you could double PPC overnight. Reread what he wrote bro.
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          • Profile picture of the author dennis09
            Originally Posted by stodog77 View Post

            He said you could double PPC overnight. Reread what he wrote bro.
            Unless it was edited it still reads the same to me, and unless youve got some wonderful explanation then I still agree with him on that small point. It's easier to get more traffic over night with PPC than it is with SEO. It's pretty widely known that this is true so I'm not too sure what the smily gifs are all about.
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            • Profile picture of the author stodog77
              Originally Posted by dennis09 View Post

              Unless it was edited it still reads the same to me, and unless youve got some wonderful explanation then I still agree with him on that small point. It's easier to get more traffic over night with PPC than it is with SEO. It's pretty widely known that this is true so I'm not too sure what the smily gifs are all about.
              Another facepalm. I don't disagree that you can get traffic faster with PPC. That is a given truth. What he said is SEO is not scalable and you can't double traffic, which is an insane statement, hence the gif (he is saying "what").

              PPC is scalable while SEO is not. If you rank #1 even on a high-volume keyword then your traffic is still limited. If you want to double your traffic you can't. If you want to double your traffic with PPC you can overnight!
              Maybe my reading comprehension skills aren't on par today, but I see it how it is written.

              Anyho, enough debating over this nonsense.
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  • Profile picture of the author inlinksseo
    SEO can transform your business into an instant lead generator. Your best way to do that is content marketing and to increase the effectiveness of that is to draw people to your content utilizing sites that will put you in front of millions/billions web users like Twitter PR 10 – Facebook/Linkedin PR 9 (Remember there are are only 10 - PR 10 sites and 100 – PR 9 sites in the world.)

    You want to create the illusion to followers, Facebookers, Linkers or just general readers that you are a thought leader. You created that by blogging, writing magnetizing, content or sharing thought leaders content that draw traffic and make people want to link back to you. That will drive massive traffic to your site 100% proven
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    • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
      Originally Posted by inlinksseo View Post

      SEO can transform your business into an instant lead generator. Your best way to do that is content marketing and to increase the effectiveness of that is to draw people to your content utilizing sites that will put you in front of millions/billions web users like Twitter PR 10 – Facebook/Linkedin PR 9 (Remember there are are only 10 - PR 10 sites and 100 – PR 9 sites in the world.)
      Their front pages are PR9-10 and that's what you see when you're using FB yourself. But your (nofollow) link probably doesn't end up on a high-PR page. My FB company page is quite old, but doesn't seem to carry any PR, and the same goes for the Twitter profile page. Oddly enough that's not true for my personal profile pages. I don't think PR is that relevant here.

      Doesn't mean that you're wrong on connecting to people on social media, and promoting your content/products. It's a good idea if you can find a good fit for your industry, target audience and product.
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      Links in signature will not help your SEO. Not on this site, and not on any other forum.
      Who told me this? An ex Google web spam engineer.

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  • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
    PPC depends on some SEO anyway because of quality scores. But building a business dependent on organic (luck) traffic is nothing short of insane. You have zero control over algorithms - and that traffic can be pulled out from under you over night.

    PPC traffic in your analytics also provides keyword data instead of [not provided] data from organic.

    Driving controlled targeted traffic to your site via PPC will give you true keyword data, including search volume, ctr and conversions. Only THEN put SEO effort in on the known keywords that convert to get some free organic traffic as a bonus, but not live or die.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by garyisonline View Post

      PPC depends on some SEO anyway because of quality scores. But building a business dependent on organic (luck) traffic is nothing short of insane. You have zero control over algorithms - and that traffic can be pulled out from under you over night.

      PPC traffic in your analytics also provides keyword data instead of [not provided] data from organic.

      Driving controlled targeted traffic to your site via PPC will give you true keyword data, including search volume, ctr and conversions. Only THEN put SEO effort in on the known keywords that convert to get some free organic traffic as a bonus, but not live or die.
      Uh... Adwords is also an algo., ever heard of quality score?
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      • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Uh... Adwords is also an algo., ever heard of quality score?
        Uh. Did you not read the very first line of the very post you were trying to mock?
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean DeSilva
    Did you know that 40% of Google traffic goes to the top three ad spots, for key terms that have high commercial intent?

    this tells us a couple of things. Number one, ignore paper click at your own detriment. Number two, there's still a lot of traffic to be had in SEO.

    I have personally found add words to be much easier to delegate. It's a simpler system that can easily be handled by a competent outsourcer. SEO on the other hand is a more complex game that requires more love and attention. I devote more of my personal time to making sure that myself and my clients are doing well on the SEO front.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by Sean DeSilva View Post

      Did you know that 40% of Google traffic goes to the top three ad spots, for key terms that have high commercial intent?

      this tells us a couple of things. Number one, ignore paper click at your own detriment.
      What's paper click?
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  • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
    I've been an SEO expert for years and every one of my website benefits highly as a result of that. I rank well for a multitude of keywords and get hundreds of thousands of FREE visits every month.

    Anybody who tells you SEO isn't worth it probably hasn't achieved the position before. Yes, it's a gajillion times harder than PPC but yes, it's worth it. I mean, who wouldn't want all those free hits? Certain keywords can cost you $1/click with PPC but with SEO, it's totally free.

    Everyone complaining about Google being hard to predict or having algorithms that don't support the little guys doesn't know what they're doing. Yes, it's true in SOME cases, but not all. Many of my websites have not been altered for years and they still rank well. The bottom line is, if you're going to game the system instead of doing truely organic SEO, then yes, you do risk a chance of getting downranked with each new Google update. But if you're doing things the proper way, you'll have no worries of that. In fact, your rankings will probably IMPROVE with each new update...which is exactly what happens to my websites.

    My suggestion is to learn how to do SEO correctly and then use that to your advantage. This knowledge alone has probably saved me thousands of dollars in PPC.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReferralCandy
    I'm surprised by some of the negativity towards SEO here, and I'm wondering if I'm imagining something different? I've found that writing good blog content that's relevant in our niche, for instance, gives us lots of hits, clickthroughs to the main site, and ultimately, paying conversions. It's a strategy that works.

    If you're talking about indiscriminate link-farming, etc, then yeah, I imagine Google would punish that. Isn't the point of SEO to put out stuff that people want to see when they search for it?

    -v
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  • Profile picture of the author PBScott
    Speaking from a perspective of new websites, without a network. I think after you use proper white hat SEO practices to build your website, you should advertise as much as is profitable for you. This maximizes what you have already built. Then you should create more pages and market that as well.

    In my opinion SEO alone, these days, is not enough. maybe if you include a large Social Media marketing campaign it will be, but plain SEO takes a very long time, and you can't catch the competition with it alone.

    Many on here promote SEM (and call it SEO), I am afraid to do SEM myself, I am absolutely sure it works if done correctly, but incorrectly is a disaster. I am trying to build an actual business, I have stock, employees, an office and other things, so I cant afford to gamble.

    Real SEO is a must, and PPC is not the only kind of advertising, this shouldn't really be an either or type of decision, you should include everything you can think of, from Blog banners, to maybe even sponsoring kid's soccer teams.
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    • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
      Originally Posted by PBScott View Post

      Speaking from a perspective of new websites, without a network. I think after you use proper white hat SEO practices to build your website, you should advertise as much as is profitable for you. This maximizes what you have already built. Then you should create more pages and market that as well.

      In my opinion SEO alone, these days, is not enough. maybe if you include a large Social Media marketing campaign it will be, but plain SEO takes a very long time, and you can't catch the competition with it alone.

      Many on here promote SEM (and call it SEO), I am afraid to do SEM myself, I am absolutely sure it works if done correctly, but incorrectly is a disaster. I am trying to build an actual business, I have stock, employees, an office and other things, so I cant afford to gamble.

      Real SEO is a must, and PPC is not the only kind of advertising, this shouldn't really be an either or type of decision, you should include everything you can think of, from Blog banners, to maybe even sponsoring kid's soccer teams.
      Incorrect SEO is no more of a disaster than incorrect PPC. If you can't afford to gamble, then having real SEO is far more beneficial in the long run if you ask me.

      It also depends on your market. Certain industries are not as heavily established making it pretty easy to dominate the SEO rankings within 6-12 months. Other industries are not so easy requiring you to use PPC and social media before you get a foothold on the search engine rankings.

      I think the problem (and most confusing part) are all the opinions coming from people who don't know what they're talking about. I've been doing SEO for a long time so I know how to expect realistic results and realistic turnarounds and also know what it takes to be successful. Likewise, I also know the true benefits of SEO because I've done it successfully many times. SEO easily beats the crap out of PPC when it comes to ROI when you do it right. And "doing it right" doesn't mean luck but having a systematic way of approaching it. Unfortunately, most guys don't have this experience and will talk out of their ass and pass it off as knowledge when all they're really doing is sharing their failure.
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      • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
        Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

        I think the problem (and most confusing part) are all the opinions coming from people who don't know what they're talking about. I've been doing SEO for a long time so I know how to expect realistic results and realistic turnarounds and also know what it takes to be successful. Likewise, I also know the true benefits of SEO because I've done it successfully many times. SEO easily beats the crap out of PPC when it comes to ROI when you do it right. And "doing it right" doesn't mean luck but having a systematic way of approaching it. Unfortunately, most guys don't have this experience and will talk out of their ass and pass it of as knowledge when all they're really doing is sharing their failure.

        Can't doubt that you've had success ranking organically which can obviously have a good ROI...for now.

        Where I totally disagree with you is in tomorrow. Nobody, you OR the search engines themselves can tell you what the SERPs are going to look like in the future. You are building a "business" on what you see today ~ AND that is totally dependent on SERPs that you have ZERO control of. Nobody knows which algorithm knobs will be adjusted tomorrow...and to claim that you have any fool proof system is false.

        I wouldn't invest 50 cents in your business with that type of lack of control, dependency on a 3rd party's FREE blessing and lack of future outlook. THAT is not speaking from the ass and is far from failure...that, my friend, is basic business 101.

        Paid traffic first - which you have control over today and tomorrow.....then supplement that with SEO using the data from paid traffic. That is a solid business model with more control over tomorrow.
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        • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
          Originally Posted by garyisonline View Post

          Can't doubt that you've had success ranking organically which can obviously have a good ROI...for now.

          Where I totally disagree with you is in tomorrow. Nobody, you OR the search engines themselves can tell you what the SERPs are going to look like in the future. You are building a "business" on what you see today ~ AND that is totally dependent on SERPs that you have ZERO control of. Nobody knows which algorithm knobs will be adjusted tomorrow...and to claim that you have any fool proof system is false.

          I wouldn't invest 50 cents in your business with that type of lack of control, dependency on a 3rd party's FREE blessing and lack of future outlook. THAT is not speaking from the ass and is far from failure...that, my friend, is basic business 101.

          Paid traffic first - which you have control over today and tomorrow.....then supplement that with SEO using the data from paid traffic. That is a solid business model with more control over tomorrow.
          Here goes another guy who doesn't know how to do it. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

          I've got websites ranking well for 5+ years and benefitted from hundreds of thousands of FREE TRAFFIC without having to make much effort. I might have spent the first couple months optimizing. And then over the years, I might have spent an hour here or an hour there. But overall, I benefitted so much more than what PPC could have ever given me (EVEN IF I WANTED TO PAY FOR IT).


          Now let's address YOUR CONCERNS:

          1. "Nobody, you OR the search engines themselves can tell you what the SERPs are going to look like in the future. You are building a "business" on what you see today..."

          I understand the search engines, probably more than most people. The algorithms do not confuse me and Google's work has been for the most part, quite transparent to me. I have noticed many particular trends and patterns that make it easy for me to predict...actually, better yet...UNDERSTAND what it takes to get a high search engine ranking.

          I am building a business on the trends I see today, yesterday, and tomorrow. I can understand somebody like you not being able to do that because you're not an SEO expert. You don't have the knowledge. It's the same with stocks. If you know what you're doing, you can invest a ton of money and almost always get great returns. If you don't, then you'll lose money and say things like "the stock market is unpredictable", "it's not a good time to invest", blah blah blah, etc, etc.


          2. "...AND that is totally dependent on SERPs that you have ZERO control of..."

          You're right, I don't have control of the search engines. The same way I don't have control over my competitors or my consumer's changing demands, or the constantly changing trends. I don't have control over many factors of the industry that can ultimately decide my success.

          But you know what? I do have control over my understanding of the market. I do have control over the skills needed to quickly SENSE, PROCESS, and ADAPT to the changes. When the search engines change, I can read it right away to see if my website fits or doesn't fit and make the necessary changes to stay on top. So while I don't have any more control over the search engines than you do, I do have far more control over my ability to react to changes if needed be.


          3. "Nobody knows which algorithm knobs will be adjusted tomorrow...and to claim that you have any fool proof system is false."

          Ok, you're obviously speaking for yourself here. You're speaking from your lack of knowledge and your lack of comfort with the system.

          As I said before, I don't know anymore than you what algorithm changes will be made tomorrow...but I certainly understand the changes better and can adapt better. Whereas you're pulling out your hair and complaining for months, it might only be a quick 5-minute analysis and then a 30-minute adjustment for me. And even then...I rarely EVER make any SEO changes to my websites after algorithm changes because I've done such a proper and good job on my site that Google never feels a need to penalize them for any reason.

          Now of course, it wasn't always this easy for me. The first couple years learning SEO, I had to go through what you did. Which was the constant fear of Google algorithm changes. But the thing was I was paid by hundreds of clients to maintain those rankings. And with time I started to learn which tactics were timeless and which tactics were "trendy". And not longer after, I became a sought-after consultant and hired by different firms. And many years after that, I became the official GO-TO guy by people in my business network.

          As we speak, I'm doing a reverse SEO project for a large entity that recently got bad press. And my job is to rank 8...yes, that's EIGHT results on the first page so that it pushes the bad press down to page 2. And it's a hard job that I've been at for the past 4 months...but guess what, I've already successfully ranked 6 pages on there already and that's through several Google algorithmic tweaks. And my client thinks I'm doing a miracle but actually, I'm just doing the same thing I've been doing for years and being VERY successful with it.

          Hopefully, one day you learn how to maximize the benefits of SEO for your business instead of overlooking it as an ineffective/unpredictable gimmick. I have just as much control over my SEO rankings as a PPC guy over his PPC rankings. Yes, I'm THAT comfortable with SEO.
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          • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            Here goes another guy who doesn't know how to do it. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
            Puhlease. You don't know me from Adam. I've been marketing online since 1994, affiliate marketing since '96, before Google was even a thing.

            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            But overall, I benefitted so much more than what PPC could have ever given me (EVEN IF I WANTED TO PAY FOR IT).
            Imagine how much income from paid traffic you're leaving on the table. Sad.

            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            I can understand somebody like you not being able to do that because you're not an SEO expert. You don't have the knowledge.
            Quite the assumption as you know not of whom you speak.

            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            2. "...AND that is totally dependent on SERPs that you have ZERO control of..."

            You're right, I don't have control of the search engines.

            That is exactly my point. You have no control over what you're depending on for traffic. That is why SEO should be a supplement, a bonus, not the means to sustaining your business.

            I'm not saying not to do SEO. Nor am I saying that it doesn't have its place. Of course it does, and organic traffic has an awesome ROI. But you don't control your placement. I know you want to think you do from your track record, but trust me...you don't. And since you're SO dependent on organic rankings, I hope you never have to learn what so many other experts have learned before you.

            Note: I'm strictly talking control here.

            No matter how good you think you are, and how stupid everybody else is, you still have no control over the behemoths where you're getting your free traffic.

            And on top of that, you don't even have the analytics data anymore. Another penalty of relying soley on SEO.

            Using PPC, you've got ALL SORTS of data. And using that true data, from the stuff you do control, apply that to SEO, the parts you don't control.

            Example. From a PPC campaign, within a few short days you can know for a fact which keywords are worth pursuing before putting any SEO effort in on them.

            You can't honestly tell me that all of your SEO targeting converts as expected. That is...3 months down the road once and if you finally get positioned.

            SEO without PPC is like tuning a radio, waiting 90 days, then hoping you landed on a station...that you actually wanted to land on....and that it will play the tunes you were actually hoping for.

            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            3. "Nobody knows which algorithm knobs will be adjusted tomorrow...and to claim that you have any fool proof system is false."

            Ok, you're obviously speaking for yourself here. You're speaking from your lack of knowledge and your lack of comfort with the system.
            No. I am speaking from almost 20 years of practical hands on experience. It has nothing to do with comfort. It has everything to do with building genuine businesses based on things I dictate and control. Depending on a 3rd party for free blessings is foolish.

            Even though rankings have worked out for 5 years or so, that doesn't mean it's a smart way to build a business. There are people who hit it big in Vegas too.

            Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

            one day you learn how to maximize the benefits of SEO for your business instead of overlooking it as an ineffective/unpredictable gimmick. I have just as much control over my SEO rankings as a PPC guy over his PPC rankings. Yes, I'm THAT comfortable with SEO.
            One day I'll learn? OK.

            I benefit from SEO quite nicely thank you. But I know its place. And if rankings were to change tomorrow, my paid traffic, the part I actually control, will always sustain my businesses.
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            • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
              Originally Posted by garyisonline View Post

              No matter how good you think you are, and how stupid everybody else is, you still have no control over the behemoths where you're getting your free traffic.

              And on top of that, you don't even have the analytics data anymore. Another penalty of relying soley on SEO.
              You don't actually have any control over those behemoths or ad networks when doing PPC. There's the assumption that they're treating you as the paying customer that you are, and not changing their business too much in the fear of destroying it, but the landscape might still change for whatever reason.

              I hear Adwords costs have doubled in 2013 for some competitive keywords. A savvy manager can probably combat that by using all sorts of maneuvers, but that's just an example of the fluid nature of the system. You need to stay top of the latest changes wether you're using PPC or SEO.

              I think it's easy enough to move from SEO to PPC if you need to. Probably also the other way around. Of course it may be painful at first because "pure SEO" user might not have a budget for PPC traffic.

              If you're talking about "not provided" - yes, you can have the Analytics data even if you're not using Adwords.
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              • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
                Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

                You don't actually have any control over those behemoths or ad networks when doing PPC. There's the assumption that they're treating you as the paying customer that you are, and not changing their business too much in the fear of destroying it, but the landscape might still change for whatever reason.
                There are elements with anything that are out of your control, even with yellow page ads. But generally with paid placements you will have much more control than SEO - control over things like images, banners, titles, devices, budgets...even day parting. <-- which is a good way to avoid competition btw.

                Whereas with SEO, you may appear somewhere eventually...or may not at all. Your optimized snippet may be used...or not. Depending on areas and search preferences you may or may not appear across the board...or even rank differently depending on other circumstances.

                Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

                I hear Adwords costs have doubled in 2013 for some competitive keywords. A savvy manager can probably combat that by using all sorts of maneuvers, but that's just an example of the fluid nature of the system. You need to stay top of the latest changes wether you're using PPC or SEO.
                Staying on top of things indeed. SEO for any keyword(s) has a significant cost attached to it too...along with the additional cost of waiting for results.

                With everything it's all a matter of keeping track of performance. With paid traffic, once you get your conversion ratios set for certain keywords and their bids you should spend as much as you possibly can every single day.

                It's that setting and optimizing that can create riches as you constantly build sustainable money machines. That is the type of granular control you have with PPC.

                Then you take that full bank of data from your proven money keywords and run hog wild with SEO to get that free bonus traffic. Which may or may not be predicable.

                I see so many people in their keyword research leave keywords on the floor because of the SERP competition. SHEESH! It may not be worth the SEO effort, but dang, PPC the thing and see if it's a winner!

                Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

                I think it's easy enough to move from SEO to PPC if you need to. Probably also the other way around. Of course it may be painful at first because "pure SEO" user might not have a budget for PPC traffic.
                If an SEM is running a real business their SEO is generating profit. That profit could and should be reinvested into any means necessary to scale their winnable traffic. PPC or not.

                Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

                If you're talking about "not provided" - yes, you can have the Analytics data even if you're not using Adwords.
                Not the detailed data you get from campaign tracking, keyword conversion tracking etc. I can get pinpoint accuracy on PPC where organic data is severely lacking.
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  • Profile picture of the author stodog77
    Anyone that says SEO is a waste of time, or is not scalable, has no clue what they are talking about. SEO has certainly changed, but when done properly still gives you a ginormous ROI. Of course you shouldn't depend on SEO solely...dah. If you want to succeed long term you have to diversify your traffic, whether it be PPC, SEO, media buys, social media etc..
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by stodog77 View Post

      Anyone that says SEO is a waste of time, or is not scalable, has no clue what they are talking about. SEO has certainly changed, but when done properly still gives you a ginormous ROI. Of course you shouldn't depend on SEO solely...dah. If you want to succeed long term you have to diversify your traffic, whether it be PPC, SEO, media buys, social media etc..
      Your site doesn't come up for me in Google when I type 'Best SEO Firm.' Just thought you should know.
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      • Profile picture of the author stodog77
        Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

        Your site doesn't come up for me in Google when I type 'Best SEO Firm.' Just thought you should know.
        Yeah so? I don't actively optimize my marketing site. With the exception of some sig links on marketing forums I am active on and a bunch of natural links. It used to rank in the top 3 naturally, but when Google devalued EMDs it took a dive. It isn't my core business. It probably equates to 5% to my total income yearly. If I decided it was that important, I would get it done. In fact just to appease "the most interesting douche on WF" it's my next project. I'll send you a PM when it is done.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
    SEO isn't a bad thing or a waste of time. As long as:

    A) You use it for bonus traffic. Not life or death of your business traffic. Just search this forum for those tear filled posts of those who built their "businesses" on the foundation of sand that is organic traffic.

    B) You don't build your business dependent on it...since you have zero control over constantly moving organic rankings/traffic.

    C) You do PPC first, to determine the true traffic data AND which are really your keywords that are worth putting full SEO effort into.

    blah blah blah, if you don't build your business on SEO "obviously has never ranked" and you aren't as good as me blah blah blah etc. etc. ~~ so full of it.

    Controlled targeted convertible paid traffic can run LAPS around SEO very quickly and without worrying about it disappearing in your sleep.

    SEO for organic rankings should be a supplement to actual controlled paid traffic. Basic common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author poojaseo
    I go to the SEO not in PPC because PPC required money.It is a paid link but seo is free to generate backlink and it is very effective for long periods of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author arianna143
    PPC is the best source to get the real visitors. The display ads of the Google Adword is one of the powerful tools which helps to increase the website sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Neale
    Doubling PPC traffic overnight isn't possible for all businesses. I have managed many local business PPC programs for many years and there are only so many people looking for an "accountant" or a "plumber" on any given day in a city of a few 100 thousand people. It's easy to max out all the traffic AdWords can give you.

    What I noticed in 2013 is that almost every business niche we manage the cost per click almost doubled. Thus the cost per lead almost doubled.

    We will be putting increased focus on SEO again (after a 18-24 month hiatus) for 2014. SEO starts looking very attractive again when a clients cost per lead jumps from about $30 a lead to $60 per lead.
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    • Profile picture of the author jeffreyrogers
      SEO and PPC they both are the good methods for the website promotion. PPC is paid service which increase product sales quickly and if you have no enough money then you can do search engine optimization (SEO).
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  • Profile picture of the author steveproxy
    PPC can provide you clear idea which keywords converts for your business which are just to place in showcase yet they are competitive. so better to do PPC for some time frame thereafter you can go for organic SEO .
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  • Profile picture of the author pritikris
    According to me, SEO and PPC both are important. Both techniques helps to receive traffic from search engines.
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  • Profile picture of the author dinkO14
    Definitely PPC if you have money for invest, here is simply reason why PPC - it is unlimited traffic when you have enough money to invest.
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  • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
    "Imagine how much income from paid traffic you're leaving on the table. Sad."

    - Gary, I think you're trying to make a comparison of PPC success vs SEO success and totally not getting what I'm benefitting from. My SEO success benefits more than PPC ever could. And I know because I am regularly hired to do both for my clients. And I can see in the both the short-term and long-term which results best. And I do it again and again for a wide variety of industries and under different budget ranges.

    Right now, for my MAIN website....that is, my MAIN business and source of internet income. I dominate niche so thoroughly that if you so much as mention my industry keyword in a BROAD usage, or short-tail, or long-tail, whether through analytical well-though-out handpicked choices from Google Trends, or simple a random combination of keyword that you might dig up in your head....my site EASILY shows up multiple times on the first page of Google search results.

    And not only am I on the first page but often the first 2-3 results within the TOP 5 results on the first page. And for many of the MOST FAVORABLE terms in my industry, I easily outrank Wikipedia, Amazon, Yelp, and whatever else giant directory that may be hogging the top spots.

    And I managed to do all this ORGANICALLY and without requiring a constant effort, or budget set aside. From a single keyphrase alone (not even my top one), I pull 5,000 CLICKS every month. And I managed achieved the same success with dozens of other keyphrases. And I get all this traffic absolutely FREE! FREEEEEEEE! FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

    And you're going feel sorry for me because I didn't do PPC?

    No, my friend. I feel sorry for you. It doesn't matter how successful your PPC campaign might be. At your best success, your links are going to be sitting in the blindspots...where users don't like to look...which don't carry as much authority and favorability to web audiences. And you are going to PAY for these spots. And it is YOU that has to come up with all sorts of keyword strategies so that you can beat around the bush and pay less money for favorable keyphrases.

    You pay more money for less clicks and less keyphrases to hold maybe ONE POSITION in an AD POSITION on the search engine results...whereas I...pay ZERO MONEY to hold several on the first page...and again, I completely dominate the niche.


    Also...I'm sorry, but you're not an expert in SEO.

    I'll believe that you have 20 years of experience, I don't think you would lie about that. But in no way are you're going to convince that you know SEO as well as I do (I'm not even sure you know PPC as well as I do...but it's ok, we don't need to go there). I'll reply to your thoughts and tell you how it works for me.



    "But you don't control your placement."

    Ooooh, good one. With PPC, you can just pay your way to the top. Pay more than the next guy and you "WIN" for sure, right? And with SEO...you could do a ton of work but there's no guarantee than you'll get the top position. Makes sense.

    Here's how I see it. Both PPC and SEO are a gamble. PPC, it's a smaller gamble because you get to see right away if the being on top actually brings results. SEO, is a much larger gamble because you have to spend a lot of time before getting to the top and seeing if it brings results.

    Well for me...if you don't know your market and/or you're a very small fish in a big pond, then yes, doing PPC is probably better. But when it comes to longterm and getting the most rewards possible...SEO easily beats PPC. The "you don't control your placement" becomes a moot point because in the long run, assuming you knew how to do both SEO and PPC correctly...you would definitely achieve the favorable SEO rankings for sure. Yes, some industries take more time but the benefits are certainly there.



    "You can't honestly tell me that all of your SEO targeting converts as expected."

    - Well, first off... I can. I'm an expert, that's what experts do. Clients come to me with their budgets and expectations and I tell them HOW MUCH and HOW LONG. I have the experience to know if it's an easy job or a big job. I don't freak out or cry or quit when I'm not yet successful yet because I have far very realistic expectations about time & cost. It might not always be 100%, but it needs to be very close to that...personally I feel anybody who delivers less than 95% in the field of SEO is totally not an expert.

    I think most people underestimate the amount of work they have to do in SEO, and then cry and quit when it doesn't go their way. Additionally, I think they don't even know how to do it. So first you have to know what is required...and then you have to know how to do it. So there are 2 different failures that happen there.

    So going back to what you said...I'm going to tell you straight up...ALMOST ALL my SEO projects convert exactly as expected. Now of course, I'm not gonna go out there and pick fights with Amazon on the rankings or kill myself to be #1. But getting to the #4 or #5 spot is totally doable for many industries. I have a hand in many of these difficult industries myself. But the bottom line is...it's totally doable and I've been paid small fortunes by clients to make these "miracles" happen. So I can say it quite confidently that yes, TOTALLY DOABLE. Like...it's that easy for me. I'm not a self-proclaimed genius, I just know how to do it, ok?



    "Using PPC, you've got ALL SORTS of data."

    Ok...this line right here makes me doubt your technical ability. Here's why...

    There are tons of helpful data online in regards to figuring out how to succeed with SEO and PPC. Both are different strategies to achieving the same goal (building quality traffic).

    With PPC, you basically build the traffic by going through Google's adwords program and looking at all the helpful indicators of price, metrics, and geographical location, and language, and suggested alternatives, etc, etc....and then targeting keywords you think best fit the audience you're going for. Obviously here...Google is going to give you a pretty little tool because they want you to spend money doing PPC.

    Now with SEO, it's not the same. Google doesn't readily give you as much free information...but nonetheless the helpful data DOES EXIST but requires more technical ability to get to that. For example with SEO...the first thing I do is scope the competition. I type in the desired keywords into Google and see who comes up. Then I check out every single competitor within the top 20 results.

    And it takes some time but I take a quick look at their websites, then dig into the code, then look at their content organization, their backlinks, social media presence, and use a variety of other helpful SEO tools to give me details about their website. And it doesn't take long before I start to see trends and patterns and probable reasons as to why they rank so high. I am being very very brief with my explanation of this btw (there are many more factors than I'm listing here), the actual work itself is far more methodical and meticulous than what I am explaining here.

    Then I go back to my client and explain how long and how much it would cost to OUTDO the efforts of the competitors. But nonetheless the method is systematic and full of helpful data and obvious indicators that you would benefit from if you knew how and where to look.



    "Even though rankings have worked out for 5 years or so, that doesn't mean it's a smart way to build a business. There are people who hit it big in Vegas too."

    - There are people who hit it big in Vegas? This is EXACTLY why I know you're not an SEO expert. You talk about SEO like it's a crapshoot. I bet you actually think I'm doing this all with luck (as if I didn't systematically engineer my ranking success again and again and again). Dude...I put in a relatively nominal effort and benefit for 5+ years free of charge. You can bet your ass off that if things were to suddenly downrank, I could easily do it again and potentially benefit for another 5+ years. Heck, it'll take even less effort because the hard work is done, only minor tweaks needed...assuming you did it right in the first place.

    I think it ultimately comes down to effort, knowledge, and skill. It costs me a lot less time and money to do SEO than it does to do PPC. And so I'm doing the SEO because it's so damn easy and obvious for me...and really, I love the benefits. I don't know how you can call my method "not smart" when I'm getting more traffic than you with less effort. And if I had to re-do it again, SEO would probably remain the better option that takes less effort and gives better results.

    I get far more traffic than you and I pay nothing. Just the fact that you can AFFORD TO PAY for your PPC makes me feel sorry for you. How much is a click nowadays? I'm going to pretend you only pay a mere $0.10 for each click (when we both know many people pay 5-10 times more than that). And let's say you're getting 10,000 clicks a month? So that's how much? $1000/month you pay for PPC?

    And I'm getting over 150,000 clicks from Google every month. Can you imagine if each click cost me $0.10?! OUCH! Hahaha. I mean...sure, it wouldn't matter if the clicks converted to sales. But the thing is they already convert, and I'm already ranked for all the most desirable keywords I could have ever dreamed of, AND I'm not paying a single cent for the traffic.



    "And if rankings were to change tomorrow, my paid traffic, the part I actually control, will always sustain my businesses."

    - This makes logical sense. Spreading out your lead generators so everything doesn't go down in one basket. Although I don't supplement my SEO with PPC, I supplement my SEO with social media and word-of-mouth and other things. Then again, me and you could very well be in different industries and in different positions. So no harm there...we all have to cater to our businesses and business strategies.

    With that said, I do have control over my SEO rankings. It's so easy for me. Google could change again if they wanted. I would simply re-analyze and alter my website around again. No big deal. In fact, I LOVE IT when Google algorithm changes...because they actually HELP my website, because I'm doing SEO correctly. I hope you understand there's a difference between the way I do SEO and the way you do SEO. And that your SEO results, while truthful and logical....do not represent the entire actuality of SEO field.




    P.S.: I'm not trying to convert you to SEO or dis on PPC. I'm just saying you shouldn't downtalk SEO when you haven't fully reaped its benefits and haven't yet figured out how to do it EASILY and EFFECTIVELY/EFFICIENTLY/PREDICTABLY.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      And you're going feel sorry for me because I didn't do PPC?
      Yes.

      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      It doesn't matter how successful your PPC campaign might be. At your best success, your links are going to be sitting in the blindspots
      I don't JUST do PPC. I use PPC and then SEO. I have never said that my methods are PPC only.

      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      Also...I'm sorry, but you're not an expert in SEO.

      I'll believe that you have 20 years of experience, I don't think you would lie about that. But in no way are you're going to convince that you know SEO as well as I do (I'm not even sure you know PPC as well as I do...but it's ok, we don't need to go there). I'll reply to your thoughts and tell you how it works for me.
      I'm glad you are so confident in your skills and I have no need to compete in a peeing match. So I'm absolutely comfortable with your doubt in my skills and experience.

      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      Using PPC, you've got ALL SORTS of data.

      Ok...this line right here makes me doubt your technical ability. Here's why...

      There are tons of helpful data online in regards to figuring out how to succeed with SEO and PPC.
      Again this was spoken from years of experience of doing both. I know very well from whence my data cometh. So continue to gloat, you're the one with a link to protect.

      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      Even though rankings have worked out for 5 years or so, that doesn't mean it's a smart way to build a business. There are people who hit it big in Vegas too."

      - There are people who hit it big in Vegas? This is EXACTLY why I know you're not an SEO expert. It's because you go around looking at SEO like it's a crapshoot.

      I bet you actually think I'm doing this all with luck.
      I said you don't have control. And you don't.

      Originally Posted by blackli0n View Post

      Here we go again...I do have control over my SEO rankings. It's so easy for me. Google could change again if they wanted. I would simply re-analyze and alter my website around again. No big deal. In fact, I LOVE IT when Google algorithm changes...because they actually HELP my website, because I'm doing SEO correctly. I hope you understand there's a difference between the way I do SEO and the way you do SEO. And that your SEO results, while truthful and logical....do not represent the entire actuality of SEO field.
      And I hope that Google continues to see it your way. But if some day their boardroom makes a decision without your input, look me up and I'll teach you some of my lack of knowledge and hard knock experience.

      Until then only the best!
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  • Profile picture of the author blackli0n
    It was nice discussing SEO with you and I did not mean any offense towards or PPC. I wish you the best of luck, Gary. See you around on the forums.
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  • Profile picture of the author sanmal
    It is much better to focus on SEO if you plan to run your website in years to come because it takes time for SEO to start getting results but once started they are steady and reliable.PPC u can use any time you want but only as contribution of your website promotion and addition to SEO.Dont rely only on PPC.

    Regards,
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  • Profile picture of the author gknugurlu
    Yes it's true ppc is easy but needs money. If you have money to spent then you can do ppc if you don't then no ppc
    Yes SEO is hard and became harder. But SEO will always work, it's not like ppc, when you have money it works and when no money stops.
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  • Profile picture of the author senabhijit
    According to me, PPC is paid and cost valuable. PPC gives Instant valuable result. SEO takes long time to generate result and cost less. SEO give you reliable and long life result.
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  • Profile picture of the author abhish
    Facebook and other social ppc is not of much worth not even Google ppc. I mean i case of search engine purpose
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    • Profile picture of the author BillyPilgrim
      As the OP, let me thanks everyone for their participation. Yes, things can get heated but a TON of information was presented here.
      So, thanks again.

      Buddy
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