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LSI at work

by MikeFriedman
35 replies
  • SEO
    • |
I stumbled across an interesting example of LSI at work.

A few days ago I was browsing through Facebook, and I came across a post someone had made. It was one of those "So and so blows away the judges of [insert talent competition show here]". I normally ignore those, but this one caught my eye because it mentioned it was a 13 year-old girl that was disabled who performed. I'm a sucker for kids overcoming hardships, so I took a look.

If any of you are fans of The X Factor, the story of Rion Page will be familiar to you. I never watch the show.

Rion has Arthrogryposis Multiplex Congenita. The condition generally affects either the hand or feet. The child is born with muscles in the joints that are shorter than normal and does not allow them to extend their joints. In Rion's case, you can see her hands are bent at the wrist and not straight.

Rion has an extraordinary voice. Simon Cowell, upon seeing her audition on The X Factor, was reminded of Carrie Underwood's audition on American Idol. Certainly high praise.

Now I do not watch The X Factor, but I was curious to find out more about her, how she did on the show, and what she is up to now. I Googled "Rion Paige wiki". I found something interesting.



You will see the third listing is the Wiki page for Arthrogryposis. If you visit that page, nowhere on it is Rion Paige mentioned. Obviously over the past few months, she has been getting a lot of press. There countless stories being published about her, and no doubt, almost all of them mention Arthrogryposis in them.

Google has associated this young woman with this affliction. It's a pretty good example of LSI at work.
#lsi #work
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Its an excellent Example Mike. Further it shows tht LSI evolves in an algo that we almot never hear about.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    There's internal pages on Wikipedia that mention the keywords (Rion Paige, Arthrogryposis) & Wikipedia already ranks #1 for the keyword wiki so they have major authority on that by itself.

    [Wikipedia source]
    Rion Paige

    Rion Paige Thompson, a 13-year-old from Jacksonville, Florida auditioned with "Blown Away" by Carrie Underwood. Paige suffers from a congenital condition called Arthrogryposis mutiplex congenita (AMC), which has caused permanent damage to her arms, causing her hands to be fixed in a bent position. She is also blind in her right eye from glaucoma. Paige made the top 12 after singing by her mentor's song "Skyscraper" in the first live show. Paige made it to the top five, where she was in the bottom three, against Carlito Olivero. Paige was eliminated in fifth place.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      There's internal pages on Wikipedia that mention the keywords (Rion Paige, Arthrogryposis) & Wikipedia already ranks #1 for the keyword wiki
      That does not take anything away from the example of LSI. As we say often around here Google ranks pages not sites. The name is being directly associated with the disease to specify that exact wikipedia page. This is proven even clearer by scrolling down the page of a search with just the name Rion Page by itself. At the bottom related searches include just the disease name.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        That does not take anything away from the example of LSI. As we say often around here Google ranks pages not sites. The name is being directly associated with the disease to specify that exact wikipedia page. This is proven even clearer by scrolling down the page of a search with just the name Rion Page by itself. At the bottom related searches include just the disease name.
        I red/bolded the direct link keyword anchor-text pointing at the ranked Wikipedia page.

        The same page (link above) includes the keyword Rion Paige as an <h2> tag which is on-page priority. Plus the keyword anchor-text Arthrogryposis mutiplex congenita is surrounded by the same persons name. Plus the additional same person named Wikipedia pages (links above).

        Stop guessing & look at the facts. :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          I red/bolded the direct link keyword anchor-text pointing at the ranked Wikipedia page.
          You could red bold even put it in 40 Pixel fonts theres no anchor text link to that page from google using her name and her name does not appear on the page. If you would read and learn the search was for the name of the person. Besides that the FACTS do speak for themselves -at the bottom of the page in a search with just the name its as clear as day "related searches - Arthrogryposis".

          You can whine, squirm around all you want this IS an example of LSI. Google does relate her name to the disease end of story. The proof and facts are in. :rolleyes:

          Mike has a good find and a nice example of LSI and as usual you just can't take anyone else showing anything unless its something that puts you in the light of guru. This is probably one of the best threads in a week or two and you just had to come in and try to muck it up because you were not the focus.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            You could red bold even put it in 40 Pixel fonts theres no anchor text link to that page from google using her name and her name does not appear on the page. If you would read and learn the search was for the name of the person. Besides that the FACTS do speak for themselves -at the bottom of the page in a search with just the name its as clear as day "related searches - Arthrogryposis".

            You can whine, squirm around all you want this IS an example of LSI. Google does relate her name to the disease end of story. The proof and facts are in. :rolleyes:

            Mike has a good find and a nice example of LSI and as usual you just can't take anyone else showing anything unless its something that puts you in the light of guru.
            Lol, you would argue with a tree stump.

            The original keyword phrase includes the word wiki, Wikipedia is an authority for that [exact] keyword (wiki).

            The 31 Rion Paige supporting pages are right there in your face, ignore the obvious If you want, still there...

            [edit]
            The screenshot in OP even bolds the word Wikipedia (wiki).
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              The original keyword phrase includes the word wiki, .
              Duh...so you can read. Mike said right up front his search included the word wiki. :rolleyes:. He even gave you a screenshot. Thanks for finally catching up. The rest of it was for the name of the person NOT the disease name and yet the disease page comes up.

              Supporting pages doesn't matter squat against the fact that at the bottom of the page on a search for her name ALONE google tells you (or anyone with glasses) that yes they do associate the two. Thats still there staring you in the face and frankly making you look foolish to deny.

              LSI is real. Mike's example is solid and no anonymous poster is going to change what all professional SEOs know is a ranking factor

              Lol, you would argue with a tree stump.
              On that you might have a point. Feels like I am right now.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Duh...so you can read. Mike said right up front his search included the word wiki. :rolleyes:. He even gave you a screenshot. Thanks for finally catching up. The rest of it was for the name of the person NOT the disease name and yet the disease page comes up.

                Supporting pages doesn't matter squat against the fact that at the bottom of the page on a search for her name ALONE google tells you (or anyone with glasses) that yes they do associate the two. Thats still there staring you in the face and frankly making you look foolish to deny.
                This what I get for trying to explain SEO to a link builder. :rolleyes:

                Good luck.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                  This what I get for trying to explain SEO to a link builder. :rolleyes:

                  Good luck.
                  You can't teach me SEO yuke. You are delusional. Your thing was adsense and pushing people into it which now even you have abandoned.

                  P.S. get a clue LSI is specifically not about link building and I have done more SEO in more niches than you ever have both on and off page.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Mike My apologies. Great thread which could have and maybe will have some intelligent and actionable discussion. For the first in probably a month a real thread with some potential meat. Should have known it would be rained on with junk. Will see but ....Valentine day calls
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
    Any words that you place in close proximity to a link are taken as part of the anchor, especially words that would be tagged in <h>. It's not that widely known amongst SEO, but I thought that both Mikes would know that little trick inside out.

    Like:

    <h1>Rion Piage</ suffers from Arthrogryposis

    That anchor will pull in the name Rion Piage as part of the anchor. I do this kind of thing all the time with raw links. It's like a word association game, where the algo also pulls surrounding important text and apply's that to the outgoing link also. Hard to explain from me as I'm less technically minded then you freaks. But in this case, yeah Yukons right. Those internal <h> tags are giving the Arthrogryposis anchor credit for Rion Piage.

    I'm not debating if LSI works, just that this is not an example of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

      Any words that you place in close proximity to a link are taken as part of the anchor, especially words that would be tagged in <h>. It's not that widely known amongst SEO, but I thought that both Mikes would know that little trick inside out.
      Common problem with untrained people who do a little SEO. They take the algo as one dimensional. You assume too much about Mike and I and are not showing any light on the subject. Of course relationships are seen on page and in regard to link proximity (nowhere near as powerful as you claim but yes ) but that hardly rules out LSI (in fact proximities are EXACTLY how LSI is calculated for the algo. Its certainly not manual).

      You and Yuke are most definitely wrong but on a open forum thats not unusual. If you think that Google isolates their algo from the relationships that they display elsewhere you are sadly mistaken and need to learn a bit more about SEO and how programmers craft algos.

      What none of you can deny is that such a relationship is clearly displayed on Google- sans wiki link or proximity or whatever else. If it were not valentine's day I would screenshot it, blow it up and circle it with red markers for the both of you but here

      https://www.google.com/search?q=Rion...a&channel=fflb

      scroll down and see your objections being proven wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        https://www.google.com/search?q=Rion...a&channel=fflb

        scroll down and see your objections being proven wrong.
        Then you scroll too and see how you are wrong

        https://www.google.ie/search?num=100....0.IwxhrpOMx-0

        I've used this technique for donkeys years man. Not trying to piss on your parade.

        Hows your luck going this Valentines? I've been in the saddle twice already.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

          Then you scroll too and see how you are wrong

          https://www.google.ie/search?num=100....0.IwxhrpOMx-0

          I've used this technique for donkeys years man. Not trying to piss on your parade.

          Sorry Kevin, but I don't think the relationship has to be a two-way street for it to be LSI related.

          If we were talking synonyms, yes.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            Sorry Kevin, but I don't think the relationship has to be a two-way street for it to be LSI related.

            If we were talking synonyms, yes.
            For both of those terms it would be shocking if they where not. But they're not. Shes does however rank in both SERP's though, so why not related search too.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

              For both of those terms it would be shocking if they where not. But they're not. .
              Please...not even remotely shocking. Associations do not need to be both ways. If I put in Obama there can be a realtionship to him being president but fi I put in President it hardly has to relate back to Obama in related search since the reference of presidents is much wider than obama where the reference to his employment is not. all hypothetical since I have noit checked it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

          Then you scroll too and see how you are wrong

          https://www.google.ie/search?num=100....0.IwxhrpOMx-0

          ROFL (you guys are going to get me in trouble on valentines day) how in the world does that prove my point wrong because you think that related searches have to be bilateral?

          I've used this technique for donkeys years man. Not trying to piss on your parade.
          My man you have to have real piss to rain and you don't have any. You are peeing air Sheesh guys think. Do you really think that Google programmers create a database of related searches completely separate from the data relationships in their algo just to display it at the bottom of search results?lol . Or do you think they pull from an existing database of related terms that their system is calculating??

          I am not saying related searches are synonymous with LSI relationships but that the programmers for sheer efficiency do not start from scratch just to include related searches at the bottom of search results.

          I don't give a crap about what you claim to rank for using proximity. You can claim anything but the facts are there UNDENIABLY that Google does relate the name with the word.

          Its so freaking entertaining to see you two look right at the evidence and try and pretend its not there.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Yes, I know about that link. Yes I understand surrounding text around the anchor.

      And if I was searching for "Rion Paige Arthrogryposis", the result would be much easier to explain by just that.

      If you do searches for things like "Rion Paige", "Rion Paige X Factor", "Rion Paige from X Factor", etc. further down the SERPs you will find pages about Arthrogryposis.

      As well as if you just search for "Rion Paige", at the bottom of the first page where it says Related Searches you find both "Arthrogryposis" and "Arthrogryposis multiplex congenia".

      I don't think anyone is trying to rank Arthrogryposis related pages for searches relating to Rion Paige on purpose.

      There are a whole bunch of searches relating to Rion Paige that will show similar results. I used this one because it was very simple to see and it is in your face. Figured it would make more sense to the non-SEO expert crowd that lives in this forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim3
    Very Interesting Mike (F)

    Just as a matter of interest, would everyone on this thread like to run that search again.

    It is 01.00 GMT here in the UK and that Wikipedia entry 'arthrogryposis' is not now showing, would just like it confirmed it has disappeared for you guys too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Tim3 View Post

      Very Interesting Mike (F)

      Just as a matter of interest, would everyone on this thread like to run that search again.
      Still showing it from here and through my Chicago server.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim3
        Thanks Mike,
        perhaps it's a datacentre thing or another example of G's randomness.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
      Originally Posted by Tim3 View Post

      Very Interesting Mike (F)

      Just as a matter of interest, would everyone on this thread like to run that search again.

      It is 01.00 GMT here in the UK and that Wikipedia entry 'arthrogryposis' is not now showing, would just like it confirmed it has disappeared for you guys too.
      It's not showing it because it's not an LSI, It's just a page ranking through internal linking by Wikipedia. Unless the 2 Mikes are going to tell you that LSI are now GEO dependent.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim3
        Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

        It's not showing it because it's not an LSI, It's just a page ranking through internal linking by Wikipedia. Unless the 2 Mikes are going to tell you that LSI are now GEO dependent.
        Lol
        I'm not getting caught in the crossfire

        I was using G.com of course, but I ran that search again through HMA and that page does indeed show up.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
          Originally Posted by Tim3 View Post

          Lol
          I'm not getting caught in the crossfire

          I was using G.com of course, but I ran that search again through HMA and that page does indeed show up.
          Me neither, I just dropped by to let my testicles fill back up.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

        It's not showing it because it's not an LSI, It's just a page ranking through internal linking by Wikipedia. Unless the 2 Mikes are going to tell you that LSI are now GEO dependent.
        Dude....:rolleyes:....of course LSI is GEO dependent. ALWAYS BEEN. I learned that years ago with one of my first UK clients. Geography and culture plays a huge part in what humans find related. Shag in the US refers more to rugs than in the UK.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Dude....:rolleyes:....of course LSI is GEO dependent. ALWAYS BEEN. I learned that years ago with one of my first UK clients. Geography and culture plays a huge part in what humans find related. Shag in the US refers more to rugs than in the UK.
          Note the sarcasim...

          Just be wrong on this dammit..:p..and be happy.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

            Note the sarcasim...

            Just be wrong on this dammit..:p..and be happy.
            Just be happy that you can imagine being in the saddle twice on Friday (while typing furiously on you keyboard during that time). If not for that imagination you would not be able to forget that you were up late watching infomercials and crying in your empty Ice cream bucket - your mom being the last (and only) woman in your room in 2014 .
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            • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Just be happy that you can imagine being in the saddle twice on Friday (while typing furiously on you keyboard during that time). If not for that imagination you would not be able to forget that you were up late watching infomercials and crying in your empty Ice cream bucket - your mom being the last (and only) woman in your room in 2014 .
              I never made it to round 3, she had to rinse her false teeth. ..good old dear..
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

                I never made it to round 3, she had to rinse her false teeth. ..good old dear..
                That probably was not her false teeth she was washing

                But these

                but hey whatever you got to do to fool the ladies you can
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  • Profile picture of the author denharsh
    Thanks for this useful find Mike.. I'm using EasyWpSEO plugin in WordPress for LSI keyword, do you know any other plugin which can help??
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by denharsh View Post

      Thanks for this useful find Mike.. I'm using EasyWpSEO plugin in WordPress for LSI keyword, do you know any other plugin which can help??
      I would not waste my time with WP plugins for stuff like this. I would do the actual research to find LSI-related terms myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
    I'm reading this exchange between Yukon and Mike, and I don't just get it. Yukon's observation seems to be correct. Does pointing out the actual hyperlinks from articles about her to ones about her condition mean that Yukon is denying the existence of LSI? Aren't the links one obvious reason why Google so easily draws these conclusions even if they're using LSI in the background?

    I mean, it kinda looks like some sort of religious belief. There's believers and there's deniers, and the discussion soon degrades to argumentum ab auctoritate.

    I find this stuff fascinating, so I wouldn't mind some more examples. Yes indeed, Google seems to tie this girl to her hardship, the competition, and Simon Cowell.
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    Links in signature will not help your SEO. Not on this site, and not on any other forum.
    Who told me this? An ex Google web spam engineer.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

      I'm reading this exchange between Yukon and Mike, and I don't just get it. Yukon's observation seems to be correct. Does pointing out the actual hyperlinks from articles about her to ones about her condition mean that Yukon is denying the existence of LSI? Aren't the links one obvious reason why Google so easily draws these conclusions even if they're using LSI in the background?
      You must be reading another thread. Yukon and Kevin HAVE been denying that its LSI related and even the Op has been answering Yukon not just me. Furthermore no Yukon's observation is not correct. There are no actual hyperlinks. What both Yukon and Kevin are arguing is that the proximity of the person's name to the link of the disease is enough to rank the page without the name of the person ever appearing on the page.

      Mike's search was for the name of the person not the disease along with the term wiki. The inclusion of the disease name BY ITSELF with no added "wiki" in Google's related searches

      PROVES

      beyond any shadow of a doubt to any rational human being that yes Google does relate the name to the disease.

      ITS RIGHT THERE IN A SEARCH FOR THE GIRLS NAME IN RELATED SEARCHES!!


      ROFL......this place is so hilarious sometimes. Now can what they are talking about play a part? Why yes but as I said in my first response to Yukon it does NOT negate this as a good example of LSI regardless because it is FAAAAR more likely given the relationship in the database that LSI is playing the key part. The related search tells you there is a relationship in Google's data.

      Furthermore anyone with a noggin knows it is much harder to rank a page for a term when the keywords do not appear on the page. The name of the girl does NOT appear on the wiki page so it makes it even more likely since Google ranks pages on relevance that Google is pulling the relevance from the relationship of the name to the term in their database.
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      • Profile picture of the author nettiapina
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        There are no actual hyperlinks. What both Yukon and Kevin are arguing is that the proximity of the person's name to the link of the disease is enough to rank the page without the name of the person ever appearing on the page.
        Not every article has hyperlinks, but denying them entirely is a bold claim. For example Huffintonpost linked the disease from an article that is clearly and entirely about Paige. Some other pages link Powell because he commented on her performance. Etc.

        I'm not denying that Google has made some sort of relation between this girl and her condition. That should be fairly obvious, because Google even provides a handy list of related searches as was pointed above. Like everybody else, I'm interested in the mechanism that the algorithm and relation building operates on. If Google is using links and link texts as part of the process it doesn't really diminish their achievement in my eyes.

        I've been trying the Finnish Google search. Most related searches seem to be quite crude, "just add another word to the current search". But there are some that seem like genuine relationships.

        For example, one of our local party leaders is often mentioned with a popular racist right-wing nutjob from his party, and Google has noticed their mutual "relationship" - probably from all the "nutjob convicted, how will party react" articles. The party in question is linked to that very controlling and authoritative leader. These are both shining examples of success, because this is how the relationships work in real life. And this is not a popular phenomenon from US, but a small stuff from a small country.
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        What's your excuse?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by nettiapina View Post

          Not every article has hyperlinks, but denying them entirely is a bold claim. For example Huffintonpost linked the disease from an article that is clearly and entirely about Paige.
          What in the world are you taking about?? Where did I deny all hyperlinks? I have even conceded that link proximity to the related phrase can play a part. Nothing bold about it. Are you just entirely missing what MikeF stated? The ranking he is showing is for a serp with her name and the word wiki and the disease name shows up third for a page WITHOUT ANY MENTION OF HER NAME that Mike searched for. Yes it happens sometimes but it is not the norm that a page ranks for a term when the word/words does not even appear on the page (sans the wiki) and to claim that is the case without even strong anchor text but a few proximity links is really pushing it - not when there is a clear association in Google's database with her name and the disease name.

          I'm not denying that Google has made some sort of relation between this girl and her condition. That should be fairly obvious
          Tell that to Yuke and Kevin that have been arguing against this being a good example of LSI against all evidence as they most definitely have been.

          Like everybody else, I'm interested in the mechanism that the algorithm and relation building operates on. If Google is using links and link texts as part of the process it doesn't really diminish their achievement in my eyes.
          Hard to say how LSI is calculated. You can be sure of one thing - Google will never tell us. Its a good bet that key sites that Google loves play a part so yes Wikipedia may be in that equation but not because of link proximity. LSI works as an on page factor without reference to links.That may be mixed in with real time and trending terms and even databases constructed out of the searches themselves using data from being logged in or chrome to see how people are searching similar terms say people searching for Paige along with the disease name.

          However LSI is calculated its some sweet stuff when you get it right.
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