Help With Making Tables W/FrontPage '03 & Questions

15 replies
  • WEB DESIGN
  • |
Hello,

I'm making a simple page and am having trouble getting the tables
to look right. Here's my situation:

I have a header graphic. I have created it's own table, 1 col, 1 row
the same width & height as the header... say it's 750 px wide. I want
to create two columns underneath it. One column to the left that I'm
going to use for the navigation buttons and the right will be where
the content is.

Column 1 = Navigation Column 2 = Content Area

Say I want the left navigation area(column 1) to be 225 pixels wide
and the rest to the right(column 2) to fill the void covering the rest
of the width using the 750 px. 750px - 225px = 525.

Here's what I'm thinking: Create 1 table under the header graphic that
is 1 column & 1 row. Width would be 750px the same width as the
header. Then create 2 tables within that table. Col. 1 would be 225px
and the 2nd, not sure, but thinking the 525 I mentioned above.

I understand cell padding, but not cell spacing. What is cell spacing?

Is my model on the right track? See below to recap:

1.) Create 1 table for the header which is 750px wide. Table would
be same width and height as header.

2.) Then create another table inside that table with 1 row & 1 col.
underneath with the same width 750px.

3.) Left column would be 225px and the 2nd I'm not sure to get to
fit right.

If it's right, how do I do this? I can insert a table within a table, but
when I go and try, it doesn't look right.

Also, for the whole table under the header graphic, I set height to
100% and and created 2 columns within that table each having
height of 100%. This way, as I understand it, the table will move
downward as the field expands.

Hope I didn't confuse you, but your help would be very helpful
about now. I have questions inside of questions and it sounds
confusing to me!

Thanks,

LastWarrior
#making #questions #tables #w or frontpage
  • Profile picture of the author minisitedevil
    Try this

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
    <title>New Page 1</title>
    </head>
    <body>
    <div align="center">
    <table border="0" width="750" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    <tr>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>
    <table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    <tr>
    <td valign="top" width="225">
    <table border="0" width="225" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    <tr>
    <td>
    <p align="center">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    </td>
    <td valign="top">
    <div align="center">
    <table border="0" width="525" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    <tr>
    <td>&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    </div>
    </td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    </td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    </div>
    </body>
    </html>
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    • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
      Hello minisitedevil,

      I see what you did and it "looks" right, but I don't think it's right.

      Before I knew FrontPage I had a web developer create me a website.
      With every edit, I had to contact him, then decided to find out what he
      used and got it for myself. Then I started to learn FP by watching
      videos either purchased or free online.

      I guess it didn't dawn on me to just take one of the pages and copy/paste
      the code. That would work. However, I wouldn't learn from it and would
      not be able to reproduce it unless I knew what was going on.

      The thing I see here with his setup is that the column to the left and right
      act independently of each other when it comes to height. The info you
      gave me, when I expand the content, both regions expand downward.
      With what he set up, if the right side content starts to expand, it will carry
      downward, but not expand the height of the left column. The way you
      showed, no what side starts to expand, both will expand to match.

      I don't know if that's bad or good right now. I'm thinking of using graphic
      buttons for navigation on the left. Content to right will be text and pictures
      only.

      I tried to reverse-engineer what he did, but was not figuring it out and it's
      frustrating because I can make it "look" right, just doesn't do what his does.
      I know it's easy, but can't put my finger on it, so to speak.

      By the way, what you did looks absolutely right, the way I tried several times.
      I had different variations, but none seem to work the way I think his does.

      Thank you very much for your help.

      LastWarrior
      Signature



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  • Profile picture of the author affiliatepro15
    I am not trying to derail your efforts, but if you want to develop websites, you should stop using Front Page and tables.

    Google the terms "Creating websites using HTML and CSS for beginners"

    You will find that creating div based semantic layouts will free you from the issues you are currently experiencing using tables. Also, since less code is used, your pages will load faster and they will be easier to change and maintain.
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  • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
    Affiliatepro15

    I'm currently not experiencing any troubles. I'm still learning. I could
    easily just copy/paste the code that my prior web designer did and use
    that, but it won't help me learn. His model works good enough for me.

    As for the pages loading fast, I'm fairly versed in many methods of
    optimizing a page for quick loading and I haven't found any loss of speed
    using tables... that I know of. I mainly do simple designs as they seem
    to work for now, but I am ready to try something else and haven't
    decided which one yet. I know FP spits bad code out. That's easily
    remedied by going to a W3C markup validation service and having it
    checked, then hand code the corrections.

    I will take you up on your offer to Google that info.

    Thank you for enlightening me and your reply.

    LastWarrior
    Signature



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  • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
    Microsoft now makes their premier editor available completely FREE. Visual Studio Express edition is the best editor you can find for any price and it's FREE. Just Google Visual Studio Express Download. It's the link at the bottom left of the page.

    VS creates very clean code and it validates the code you write for W3C compliance. It also flags errors on the fly / as you type it.

    As for tables, of course you are free to make things as difficult for yourself as you like but "div" based layouts are the standard these days. That's largely because they are sooo much more versatile and sooo much easier to work with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shelle-K
      Originally Posted by ronc0011 View Post

      VS creates very clean code and it validates the code you write for W3C compliance. It also flags errors on the fly / as you type it.
      Visual studio is pretty easy to work with, especially if you really start getting into the programming side of design. Definitely recommend if you decide to upgrade from Frontpage
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      • Profile picture of the author Vanfenix
        Hi Last Warrior.

        I'm a developer of 15+ years - I design sites for free for my clients and never have issues. One of the main reasons I never have problems is because I don't use Tables.

        Myself and other warriors will back me up on this when I say that you really need to start working with newer technology. Frontpage is good to learn on if you were going to learn the technology based on it. But you're learning things that you're probably not going to be using for much longer once you realize why it got replaced.

        Here's a great resource that I found just for you. It'll tell you the ins and outs of html and css.

        HTML Beginner Tutorial | HTML Dog

        I looked it over, and it's got some rudimentary information that you might find useful. All the info is free, and it's well laid out.

        And in regards to the Table inquiry, You need to ensure that you are using the <TR> and <TD> tags.

        Hope this helps.

        VanFenix
        Signature

        If you need a website, something cool, slick, and affordable - something with built in aweber, hosting included, extremely easy to use. Unlimited pages, Drag and drop functionality. E-mail me. vanfenix1 at gmail.com. || I'll set you up a site for 15 days to test out || Squeeze pages? no problem. Lightweight E-commerce? easy as pie. My Websites are not like you've ever seen. Try it today FREE!

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        • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
          I did finally download Visual Studio Express several hours ago, but
          left the browser window open... the Web Platform Installer 3.0 and
          am stuck there.

          The problem with this sort of thing is there's no info there to suggest
          to the user which one to install. I have 9 options to install and don't
          have a clue which one, so I haven't installed any of them. In fact, I can
          not visual a studio, but a dumb-founded newbie sitting there wondering
          "What the heck do I do now?".

          In fact, I opened a free online image hosting account and took a screen-
          shot of where I am. The account only allows 10mb of bandwidth a
          month, so when I'm back, the bandwidth will most likely be used up and
          account suspended. LOL!

          See below:



          LastWarrior
          Signature



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          • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
            The screen shot looks like you got to the wrong page. Here is the link you need.

            Microsoft Express Downloads - Visual Studio Express and SQL Server Express

            It's the bottom one on the left side of the page. It's called Web Platform Installer. That one installs the whole package. Visual Studio is made to be able to work with several languages and in fact is geared for working with ASP. But it also works perfectly well for straight HTML pages.


            There used to be a video tutorial at Home: The Official Microsoft ASP.NET Site that covered the basics of using the application, learning your way around the interface. Unfortunately they have moved things around again and I can't find it.

            In any event all web pages are rendered in HTML so really any of the tutorials will have value to you though maybe somewhat indirectly.

            Probably the best quick tip I can give you is when you start a "New Website" be sure to choose you folder location and don't let it use the default.

            Tip #2: When you open / create a "New Website" you have a choice of like aspx and other options. Be sure to choose an "Empty Website". When the new site opens you can right click on the top entry in the "Solution Explorer" and choose "Add new item" and then choose "HTML page". This will give you a blank HTML document to work with.

            Hopefully that will get you off to a start and you can start learning the tool from there.

            The asp.net website has zillions of hours of "How To" video on building very advanced websites. Everything from simple signin pages all the way to building the backend for companies like Exxon.
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        • Profile picture of the author afreshmo
          Originally Posted by Vanfenix View Post

          Hi Last Warrior.

          I'm a developer of 15+ years - I design sites for free for my clients and never have issues. One of the main reasons I never have problems is because I don't use Tables.

          Myself and other warriors will back me up on this when I say that you really need to start working with newer technology. Frontpage is good to learn on if you were going to learn the technology based on it. But you're learning things that you're probably not going to be using for much longer once you realize why it got replaced.

          VanFenix
          He's correct in Frontpage being outdated. The bigger issue is using tables as layout. The problem is tables, although it was at one time common to do, were never meant to be used to layout site structure. They were meant to house data like a spreadsheet. If you review the W3C standards they pretty much explain it in more detail, but the sites should really get their structure using CSS to modify things like the Hx elements and divs. Doing so will make for much easier troubleshooting, editing, and quicker loading pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
    The picture I showed is what I see AFTER I downloaded the express installer... as described to me 3 times.

    It asks me to install or which ones I want to install. I have 9 options and haven't chose any.

    Looks like no one here can help.

    I'm going to abandoned that program and look for something I can download and use... even if I have to pay, of which I expect anyway. How frustrating.

    Thanks for the advice. I am in the process of looking for another program.

    LastWarrior
    Signature



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    • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
      Ahhh... OK I see what you're asking. It's been a while since I've installed it and they've added stuff.

      If it was me I'd install all of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
      Originally Posted by LastWarrior View Post

      The picture I showed is what I see AFTER I downloaded the express installer... as described to me 3 times.

      It asks me to install or which ones I want to install. I have 9 options and haven't chose any.

      Looks like no one here can help.

      I'm going to abandoned that program and look for something I can download and use... even if I have to pay, of which I expect anyway. How frustrating.

      Thanks for the advice. I am in the process of looking for another program.

      LastWarrior


      Yeah, VS is designed to work with several languages and technologies. They give you the option to pare back the install in case you have like hard drive space issues or whatever so it will take less space on your hard drive and there are most likely some functionalities you won't need. In cases like that I always install the whole program simply because you never know I may decide somewhere down the road that I want to learn more about another language or platform.

      So yeah if it was me I'd install the whole thing. Some of those things it listed were CMS platforms similar to Wordpress. So apparently VS now supports closely linked integration with stuff like Drupal and Joomla and such. I also saw a Service Pack for Visual Web Developer which you defiantly want to install.
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  • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
    Install all of it? LOL!

    I'll have to go back and try again.

    Thank you ALL for your help. I've read each person's reply and
    any and all info is appreciated. I'll be looking to get more familiar
    with more updated web tools instead of my ace-in-the-hole
    FrontPage 2003. LOL!

    Thank you everyone! {waving hand}

    LastWarrior
    Signature



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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      if you really want to become good at developing websites, I too will advise you to learn tableless design. Tables should never be used in web design except for tabular data, eg: calendars, charts, etc...

      so learn HTML and CSS and I highly recommend using Notepad++.

      ditch the FrontPage...it's absolutely garbage, and the code it outputs is scary bloated.
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