Zero SEO Website Profits - I wanna be Google free!

[Steve Crooks]

This latest Panda update has certainly got me thinking I spend way, way, WAY too much time worrying about what Google want and don't want and way, way, WAY too little time considering what my visitors would love...

This has prompted me to start a new approach to building a profitable site, built purely and simply for my visitors with not even a sniff of SEO or any optimisation for search engines whatsoever. I couldn't care less if Google rank this site or not, my traffic will come purely from the viral nature of the content.

I am not saying I am finished with Google or anything but I am just tired of SEO and the rollercoaster. I want to take control back from Google for my visitors. I am going cold turkey on SEO for this and I don't care about keyword search volume, competition on Google, keywords in title, high PR backlinks, linkwheels and all that noise!

I would be interested to read other people's opinions and experiences with going back to site building basics without any SEO nonsense disturbing that Utopian approach.

I will keep this thread updated if people are interested in how I get on plus I am blogging about it on my marketing blog in my sig.

This is about finding our what is possible without worrying about Google traffic. I am going to utilise anything I can to promote the site but it is going to be all about the viral nature of the content. It is going to be about using the social networks like Twitter and facebook and just pushing this as far as I can and turning the site into a viral, high traffic, profitable web site.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by ardley216

I think about this all the time as well. I have always thought about using other search engine ads such as Bing. I also am targeting my SEO at bing, just for a test.

Yes, but other search engines just mean other ways of having to think about SEO rather than quality, interesting visitor oriented content. I want to see what is possible by ignoring absolutely all SEO. If, as a consequence the non-SEO'd web pages I create still get ranked, then so be it, I will be happy with that but that is not my intentions with this.

[kochtgr]

Well if you post quality informative and unique content regularly even without optimizing your site for SEO, search engines will love your site and it will certainly rank high on many related to your content keywords.

Additionally if you guest post regularly on high traffic blogs, post informative replies and comments on forums and blogs not just for link building but reputation building and you are an active member on social media sites then you really will not have to rely on search engines traffic since you will get a ton of targeted traffic direct from users or referral sites...

[Charles Harper]

You have to wonder whether the amount of money, time, outsourcing and resources that we put into ways to 'fake' authority could be better spent on other things. There are websites that don't even think about trying to outwit search engines. They get good writers, pay them more and make more.

Good topic, man. I will be watching.

CT

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by kochtgr

Well if you post quality informative and unique content regularly even without optimizing your site for SEO, search engines will love your site and it will certainly rank high on many related to your content keywords.

Additionally if you guest post regularly on high traffic blogs, post informative replies and comments on forums and blogs not just for link building but reputation building and you are an active member on social media sites then you really will not have to rely on search engines traffic since you will get a ton of targeted traffic direct from users or referral sites...

That's the idea.. I just think we spend far too long worrying about Google and what they want at the expense of all the other traffic that is available.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by Charles Harper

You have to wonder whether the amount of money, time, outsourcing and resources that we put into ways to 'fake' authority could be better spent on other things. There are websites that don't even think about trying to outwit search engines. They get good writers, pay them more and make more.

Good topic, man. I will be watching.

CT

Hey Charles, nice to see you again.. You hit the nail on the head. I don't want this to seem like I am Google hating or anything, far from it. I just want to go back to basics and see what is possible without all the on and off page optimisation stuff.

[onlineleben]

Hi Steve, good to see you back with a new challenge.
I really enjoyed your 100buckschallenge 2 years ago and will follow this one as well.
Good luck!

[fthomas137]

yea, panda has really changed the overall landscape of seo. Or should I say 'refined it'. One point that I've found is that Google likes to see more of a blanket then a site. For example, when performing seo for a site, I'm apt to create a youtube channel for the site and use it as the video hosting agent. I've found this to give more of an impact overall. Plus I'm using possibly the 3rd largest search engine, youtube!

Frank

[Hortensia]

Very good idea Steve. I am bookmarking this thread!

I have a few sites myself where I did not do any keywordresearch. On purpose.

Almost every day I get quite a lot of visitors often for phrases that don't come up in any keywordtool, with just a handful of articles on the site, some of them real short also on purpose, and without any backlinking or podcast or video submission at all. Nothing ... no linkbuilding.

I bought a wso some time ago called Total Traffic Domination by Mike Morgan, which is also about trafficgeneration without seo, but I still have to start implementation. Having browsed through it though, I am convinced that it is possible to get thousands of daily visitors, without ever checking on which page you are in Google.

Cheers,
JanPaul

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by onlineleben

Hi Steve, good to see you back with a new challenge.
I really enjoyed your 100buckschallenge 2 years ago and will follow this one as well.
Good luck!

I enjoyed it also.. This is about seeing what is possible.

[mike76]

I rank top of google for my keyword (my brand name - a single 4 letter keyword). After I set up the brand, I noticed that it was a very popular biblical name in some countries. As the site is a private membership site, all I had for google to see was the frontpage and a sign-up page. I figured it would be tough to take the top spot.

Over the past 2 years, I've had a few organic backlinks, but not too many as my site is a niche within a niche (English speaking people living in Korea, married to Koreans). It helps that we now have government recognition and there's been a little reporting on that, but otherwise... nothing. For a long, long time, I was sitting in 4th place on google, just below an islamic scholar, wikipedia, and a national park near Tel Aviv!

I've recently launched two sub-sites - a place for the public to recruit my members, and an ebook store with just 2 titles. After reading warrior forum for ideas, I also launched an official blog on a different domain, just to see what happens. The blog has PR3 after just 4 posts and no backlinks (!?) and the main membership site has leapfrogged the competition and now sits at the top of google.

So yeah... it's possible! I got close without trying, though it took 2 years. If you know a few tricks, you can do it quite easily!

Next, I'm going to try and replicate my successes with a few money sites. I'm setting up a feeder site now, then I will work on a few niche blogs, doing just 1 or 2 posts per week on each... I hope to be ranking well within a few months, and I'll then try and take the number 1 spot for a few keywords

[Mike Anthony]

Good thread Steve. I think though that when you really get into it you will realize that you havent really left SEO if you go this route. You will have just crossed fully over to Whitehat SEO because in regard to link building the methods to achieve what you want are very much similar.

Warrior Forums going whitehat in this section? Never thought I would see the day but its a good thing to add.

[mrpfct]

I totally agree Steve. Google makes frequent tweaks at the back end, this sometimes has huge difference. I've been put off from building a site for this reason.

I did read your last challenge and wish you well for this new one.

Cheers

[olliepa]

This is a real good subject but you will still be under google because you have external links with twitter and these are recogonize by the search engines.

Now as far as google panda I believe a lot of people got hit by it because they was either using google analytics, using comment scrapers or not add contact page.

Google Algorithm trace all this information and determination of what to do. I just keep it simply and to the basic and don't try to place all my time into one site and try not to use the same hosting service. Hope this helps and Thanks for the subject line well put together Steve.

Olliepa

[36burrows]

Yep, time to put away the Google crack pipe for me as well.

I've been really focusing on YouTube videos since the updates and it's already bringing in more traffic from them.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Good thread Steve. I think though that when you really get into it you will realize that you havent really left SEO if you go this route. You will have just crossed fully over to Whitehat SEO because in regard to link building the methods to achieve what you want are very much similar.

Warrior Forums going whitehat in this section? Never thought I would see the day but its a good thing to add.

Getting ranked in the search engines will hopefully be a consequence but I am not even looking at traffic from those sources with this. I know what you are saying Mike and I guess you could think of it as White hat SEO but that still implies some sort of optimisation for the search engines of my content and promotion. However, I am approaching this by not looking at any of the usual SEO disciplines whatsoever. Not even looking at keywords or anything. Every piece of content I create for this project will be because I want to create it and that is that.

I suppose I will still be actively promoting this content, so it could be argued that I will be doing the usual backlinking. The difference is though, I will not worry about things like PR, anchor text, nofollow or any such thing. The process of promotion will be purely about gaining referral traffic and building the brand. The hope being it will go viral. If the search engines hook onto this as well, then happy days, but like I say, that is just a consequence of the process, not the cause.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by mrpfct

I totally agree Steve. Google makes frequent tweaks at the back end, this sometimes has huge difference. I've been put off from building a site for this reason.

I did read your last challenge and wish you well for this new one.

Cheers

Thanks and it is those constant tweaks that just makes us slaves to Google. We end up spending more time trying to decipher the great Google algo than trying to create great content.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by olliepa

I just keep it simply and to the basic and don't try to place all my time into one site and try not to use the same hosting service. Hope this helps and Thanks for the subject line well put together Steve.

Olliepa

Simple is usually the best.. Thanks for the encouragement.

Originally Posted by 36burrows

Yep, time to put away the Google crack pipe for me as well.

I've been really focusing on YouTube videos since the updates and it's already bringing in more traffic from them.

Video is one of the core components of this strategy.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by lightsky

I also find myself thinking a lot of this problem. But, how possible is to be completely free from Google and still have a great number of visitors? Do you think to focus on social networks?

Oh yes, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube will all be part of the process. I will make sure I demonstrate all the tactics I use (good and bad) either here or on my blog.

[cooler1]

A quick song.

I want to be free of the big G,
The panda update, is killing me
I can no longer wait,
For my sites fate,
I want to be free,

[Steve Crooks]

Here is the short list of potential topics that I have a passion for..
1. English premier league football
2. Technology and gadgets
3. Movies
4. Internet marketing
5. Cooking
6. Performance cars
7. Golf
8. Computers
9. Photography
10. Nature

Now it is just a matter of choosing one and then get to work.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Steve Crooks

I suppose I will still be actively promoting this content, so it could be argued that I will be doing the usual backlinking. The difference is though, I will not worry about things like PR, anchor text, nofollow or any such thing.

Understood I am just saying in regard to link building thats how a lot of SEOs approach it - engage the public and eventually you get the links without worrying about them.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Understood I am just saying in regard to link building thats how a lot of SEOs approach it - engage the public and eventually you get the links without worrying about them.

Yep, you are right Mike. The motivation for SEOs is ranking pages higher in the search engines first and foremost. Obviously I wont complain if that happens with my new project.

[socomplete]

Originally Posted by Steve Crooks

Yep, you are right Mike. The motivation for SEOs is ranking pages higher in the search engines first and foremost. Obviously I wont complain if that happens with my new project.

It's this type of thinking that is what Google want's in the first place. Build a website that rocks and naturally get links and traffic as you build. But you know what? I understand where your coming from in terms of worrying about what Google wants.

My vision of a website is similar to facebook, you need to create a way that a large amount of people can follow your website, while forcing Google's hand in sending you traffic because your website is so popular with a lot of people.


Of course your don't have to create the next facebook, but you can create something that solves a problem, and is simple to understand and navigate through, as well as updated frequently with new information.

For example, I'm into the subject of earth changes, and I go to youtube and find a video that links to a blog, this blog is updated hourly, so I keep coming back for more new information because it helps me get the latest information as it comes in.

As long as your content is fresh and unique, a newbie could pick a niche within a niche such as "new dog collar products" and keep people up to date frequently.

From my experience, all I want as a web surfer is 4 main things:

1. I want to know what my friends are up to (facebook)

2. What is the latest news in my area

3. What is going on with my favorite topic/ niche

4. Solving my problems

My analogy for the future of the internet are websites that deliver any of the four subjects mentioned above, at fast speeds.

My focus is more on mass marketing from multiple traffic channels to just 1 website.

For example: pay per click, some seo, press releases, article marketing, blogging, videos, offline advertising, adswaps, and just focus on building a real brand and product line, with seo becoming a channel and not the focus.

I know for a fact that many of you guys and gals don't go to Google for every website that you visit. I personally have about 5 websites that I directly type into my browser, now it's just doing the work to become one of those 5 memorable websites.

[lovboa]

Personally, I hate searching Google for information... only to find an EMD, made for adsense site with low quality content at the top of the SERPS.

Makes me want to puke...

[socomplete]

Originally Posted by lovboa

Personally, I hate searching Google for information... only to find an EMD, made for adsense site with low quality content at the top of the SERPS.

Makes me want to puke...

I know right, the way I'm looking at things is like this, if your going to spend time on something why not make it last as long as possible.

[acedalright]

Good for you I say.

Personally, I think playing the google game is a loser long term. If you intend on making money for the next twenty years plus, then I think it's worth considering a better search engine/system may come along.

Google results are typically garbage, littered with spin and crap.

Trust is what gets people coming back, that and interest.

Great content means repeat viewing, SEO = repeat nightmares.

Imagine spending ALL your time on writing good content and none on SEO?

Maybe it's a winning formula

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by socomplete

I know for a fact that many of you guys and gals don't go to Google for every website that you visit. I personally have about 5 websites that I directly type into my browser, now it's just doing the work to become one of those 5 memorable websites.

You have just summed up the the main part of the philosophy of this project in that paragraph..

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by peterjamesmorris

Cool, interesting experiment. Like your style!

Have put the RSS feed for your Google Free Challenge category into my Google Reader - so you've already got a follower :-)

Excellent! This non-SEO stuff is easy! Just kidding.. I hope this project will inspire many people to look at alternatives to the usual SEO approach.

[barbling]

Heh heh, I gave up on SEO years ago when I realized that Google could (and did) kill my 100s of portal sites in one fell swoop.

Now I'm focusing on simply branding myself and making others successful (that in turn makes me successful too).

Took a lot of pain/experience to reach that level of business zen....

[Steve Crooks]

So, after much internal deliberation and debate I have decided to build my site around the technology and gadget market.. It was a tough decision to come to in all honesty. I had many reasons to build a site in all of my passion short list. It is quite surprising the difference between choosing a niche based on what you want to do as opposed to the usual SEO principles of search volume, advertisers etc..! I shall be updating my blog later.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by barbling

Heh heh, I gave up on SEO years ago when I realized that Google could (and did) kill my 100s of portal sites in one fell swoop.

Now I'm focusing on simply branding myself and making others successful (that in turn makes me successful too).

Took a lot of pain/experience to reach that level of business zen....

Yep, instead of SEO, you can call it BO (brand optimization)..

[Fraggler]

Steve, you might want to have a read of this thread: A question for Alexa Smith and MYOB

That is an amazin discussion on building a site independent of the search engines.

[paulgl]

Glad you see the light Steve.

I have been preaching google-free for a long, long time.

If I read between the lines from Mike A., doing things
to be google-free could actually lead to more google.

I do strive for google traffic, but needing to make money
via adsense and amazon, I need targeted traffic and boatloads
of it. I can't get that from google. Google search is a crap
shoot.

One thing I'll say about panda, is one of my sites seems to have
taken a hit. I say "seems to," because even though traffic
is down about 75%, the adsense clicks and revenue are
sky high. Could it be that google is directing people to
more targeted sites? I'll take that in a heart beat.

Or maybe, just maybe, I'm doing a bang up job funneling
traffic to my sites.

What good is getting 1,000 visitors a day from google, when 900 don't
care what you are offering? That leaves me with 100
visitors. Now if I could change that and get 300 visitors
with 200 targeted, man I'll take that any day. Google
generated or not.

Paul

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by paulgl

If I read between the lines from Mike A., doing things
to be google-free could actually lead to more google.

l

Pretty much. In white hat link building you also spend a bit of time working Bloggers and webmasters on a relationship basis which means it opens up opportunities beyond the links to get raw traffic from their sites.

Haven't used adwords in awhile but its really good for hunting out webmaster and traffic data of sites within a niche. Wordtracker even has a linkbuilding tool (wasn't too impressed with it but they have done some updates to it) which is obviously SEO aimed but lets face it getting traffic on the web means getting traffic through links. Whether you are thinking SEO or not the links are the thing in common.

[donaldkevin]

This is about finding our what is possible without worrying about Google traffic. I am going to utilise anything I can to promote the site but it is going to be all about the viral nature of the content. It is going to be about using the social networks like Twitter and facebook and just pushing this as far as I can and turning the site into a viral, high traffic, profitable web site.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by Fraggler

Steve, you might want to have a read of this thread: A question for Alexa Smith and MYOB

That is an amazin discussion on building a site independent of the search engines.

Yes, a top thread.. thanks for that!

[dagaul101]

Unfortunately, Google is the major player in the search engine game with over 60% of the market, unless the combination of Yahoo and MSN in Bing offer a serious challenge, or someone else comes to the fore, we have to play by the Big G's rules

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by dagaul101

Unfortunately, Google is the major player in the search engine game with over 60% of the market, unless the combination of Yahoo and MSN in Bing offer a serious challenge, or someone else comes to the fore, we have to play by the Big G's rules

That's the whole point of this project though. I want to see just what is possible by NOT playing to the big G's rules. I am going to play by my rules and see where it takes me.

[Justin Lewis]

Even though I specialize in search engine optimization and onpage optimization, I actually don't focus on worrying about my rankings much with my niche websites. I feel it's a wasted effort to put so much thought into it because the alrogithms change every 17 hours.

Pretty much I figure there are methods that are longterm and I focus on those. So instead of building backlinks, I build traffic (which builds backlinks, tada).

Instead of building links from high PR websites, I acquire links from popular websites in my niche (yet again, this is likely building PR backlinks, I just don't check).

I focus on providing quality content on my website, versus worrying oh so much about adding keywords all over the place or jamming keywords into H2 tags and bolding tags. But by providing high quality content, I usually end up working it in anyways without meaning to.

I'm not going to say that I've given up on the search engines. I'm just saying that I now focus on actually providing something to my visitors. I focus on giving them a better experience, which then increases conversions. So even if the website isn't ranking #1, I'm getting traffic from other sources (and Google), higher conversions, which then results in more money.

So again, SEO isn't gone, it's still there. I just think people need to rethink their thinking. Screw building backlinks just to build them. Do something of quality that's actually going to help you for the longterm.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by Justin Lewis

So again, SEO isn't gone, it's still there. I just think people need to rethink their thinking. Screw building backlinks just to build them. Do something of quality that's actually going to help you for the longterm.

We kind of get conditioned to building sites using these core SEO principles because they do work in getting traffic but it does leave you at the whim of the search engines. The other downside is that by concentrating on SEO before anything else, is it any wonder that an article on "cheap alarm clocks" or "decking nails" wont capture the imagination of a visitor.. At least not enough to share virally with their friends and acquaintances.

[Steve Crooks]

Just a quick update.. I have been conducting some research into the demographic of some of my competitors in the gadgets and technology market using the excellent quantcast.com. It is no surprise to see that most people are male but what was pleasing to see was the average earnings of the demographic is very high.

I have also made a list of what I want from the site after analysing my competitors and seeing where I can improve on them.

I am now concentrating on the domain name and the branding of the site as well as looking at starting to create the content.

[HN]

Originally Posted by Steve Crooks

Here is the short list of potential topics that I have a passion for..
1. English premier league football
2. Technology and gadgets
3. Movies
4. Internet marketing
5. Cooking
6. Performance cars
7. Golf
8. Computers
9. Photography
10. Nature

Now it is just a matter of choosing one and then get to work.

I am trying to do exact same thing and for this venture I bought domains like
1. sport.cx
2. how.ee
3. movies.gy and Watch Free Movies Online | www.watch.ee
4. hm?
5. recipe.ee
6. cars.tl
7. www.Golf.GY
8. computers.ee
9. photos.ee, fotos.ee, stockphotos.ee
10. nature.ee, wildlife.ee

Looks like we have a lot in common.

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by HN

I am trying to do exact same thing and for this venture I bought domains like
1. sport.cx
2. how.ee
3. movies.gy and Watch Free Movies Online | www.watch.ee
4. hm?
5. recipe.ee
6. cars.tl
7. www.Golf.GY
8. computers.ee
9. photos.ee, fotos.ee, stockphotos.ee
10. nature.ee, wildlife.ee

Looks like we have a lot in common.

You have some funky TLD's there! I wish you well.

[rinor81]

Great thread, will keep following it and good luck to all.

I wish I could take my business off Google but I am mostly affiliate marketer and it's kind of difficult making a brand site when you're affiliate...how do you build enough good quality or get people so follow you or your facebook page...

Hope I'll get some ideas here from your success...

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by rinor81

Great thread, will keep following it and good luck to all.

I wish I could take my business off Google but I am mostly affiliate marketer and it's kind of difficult making a brand site when you're affiliate...how do you build enough good quality or get people so follow you or your facebook page...

Hope I'll get some ideas here from your success...

I think this is one area where we ALL need to completely change our way of thinking. Rather than think of yourself as someone who is an "affiliate marketer" who makes "affiliate sites", you are someone who builds sites aimed at offering some value to someone through its content. The fact that you can earn an income through affiliate links is a consequence of that value you are offering.

I am not saying this project of mine will be easy but what I can certainly tell you is that I am feeling excited about creating the content and my mind is buzzing with ideas. My only issue is getting my hands on the gadgets for testing and creating enough content to start creating a buzz on Facebook and other social networks.

I hope this project will give you some inspiration..

[rinor81]

Originally Posted by Steve Crooks

I think this is one area where we ALL need to completely change our way of thinking. Rather than think of yourself as someone who is an "affiliate marketer" who makes "affiliate sites", you are someone who builds sites aimed at offering some value to someone through its content. The fact that you can earn an income through affiliate links is a consequence of that value you are offering.

I am not saying this project of mine will be easy but what I can certainly tell you is that I am feeling excited about creating the content and my mind is buzzing with ideas. My only issue is getting my hands on the gadgets for testing and creating enough content to start creating a buzz on Facebook and other social networks.

I hope this project will give you some inspiration..

I do understand what you're saying and I have a feeling you will succeed with this...the thing is really getting a great and wide niche you can talk about and write about and also offer the products which worth the money through affiliate links....that's a possibility, right?

I mean, if I want to make a living out of Internet Marketing, I have to create a site with goals also to make money for me as well as building a community through good and interesting content....what do you think?

I can't afford to create a site that does not earn me money in this business if I want to make a living out of it....

[Steve Crooks]

Originally Posted by rinor81

I do understand what you're saying and I have a feeling you will succeed with this...the thing is really getting a great and wide niche you can talk about and write about and also offer the products which worth the money through affiliate links....that's a possibility, right?

I mean, if I want to make a living out of Internet Marketing, I have to create a site with goals also to make money for me as well as building a community through good and interesting content....what do you think?

I can't afford to create a site that does not earn me money in this business if I want to make a living out of it....

Absolutely I agree 100%. Unless you love building hobby sites, which is all fine and dandy, you will want to earn a living from that site.

What I am saying is that it is far too easy to use the income goals as the driving force for the site you are building rather than concentrate on the site and what it offers your visitors.

I prefer to think of it as a start up business. If you had just invented a robot that can clean windows and you wanted to go to market with it, of course you would have income goals because that is the prudent thing to do. However, you want to make sure that your robot is the best damn window cleaning robot on the market to ensure you reach those income goals.. That window cleaning robot is your site's content, whatever form that may take.

[Steve Crooks]

It has just taken me a couple of days to work out the branding and choosing a domain name for the site. I ended up going for a made up single word for the domain name but I am happy with it.

So, the domain is bought and the branding is clear in my mind, now onto the design of the site. I am looking for a modern, magazine style look and feel with a hint of humour as well.

Website design isn't my strongest skill and so if anyone can recommend a good designer of Wordpress themes, that would be great. I have a few in mind already that I have used before but it doesn't hurt to see what else is out there.

[JoshuaG]

Hey Steve, as a fellow "adsenser" I know this is a big departure from the usual. Of course I don't know how much experience you have with other forms of traffic generation so it may be less of a departure for you...

Regardless, I think you're gonna have A LOT of fun getting creative with your marketing/viral content!

Here's to your future success on a new endeavor!