I have never been fond of offline cash cow proponents - but this made me sick!

[AmyBrown]

Originally Posted by seasoned

And WHAT if your connection goes down? What if the power goes out? I don't use the yellow pages either, but I have known people that DO! AND, for brick and mortar, they may even influence online ads.

That happened a few years ago and now I have the appropriate phone numbers on the cable modem and phone. Now I'd look it up on my cell phone.

I was surprised that people I consider non-technical said they used Google rather than looking up businesses in the yellow pages.

[Magic Johnson]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Therefore, there must be some warriors who have managed to get over the fact that every market will have scammers and hucksters, and that at times some of them will infiltrate here. Some warriors must have been able to see past that and continued to offer the right advice here, regardless of how many others weren't

I feel bad for business owners that has to close shop, we can always say, "they must know better, research more and yada yada" --

Are we building a society, built on trust, or none. It's up to us to decide.

But I can, and I will react, about things like this. Because I want a society built on trust, and were we can leave a suitcase with a million dollars, without fearing it will be stolen.

Of course, we are not there yet. But I as many others has, dreams and visions.

Now to my point, this "Know better" and "A good lesson" could we say of a lot of events, We must live in the better parts of a city in the best blocks, as crime is likely higher in the poor parts, shame on us if we get robbed, or get in to a fight because somebody wants or cellphone and money. Is this our own fault??

We are dealing with human beings here, not bugs, rats or less intelligent creatures, human beings who grab their share from others and put down others as they see them as their own boards for their own lack of desire, to work harder.

So we get sold a fairy tale, and get to live with our crushed heart.

I am of the opinion that money is Evil, when it becomes more important than justice, and integrity.

I guess(no that's my opinion, no guessing here) that's my opinon. Now if we want out to swim in the open seas with knowledge of shoals of jellyfish, then we are partly to blame if we get stung.

I feel, and this is my way to see human life, human beings has to take more responsibility when they involve other families, friends, and partners as in this case, a business arrangement.

I like to see more of us have the guts to say "enough is enough" and nail scammers, and low lifes.

But it has become so normal to get scammed, and PUT DOWN, that we rather live with the guilt, than put up a fight. As the world moves in 110MPH, as we are here in the 21-century, we are used to get our
share of negative impacts, and we feel feeble to the powers of others.

As we see SCAMMERS get very often away with their evil schemes. We get numb, not only to them, but to violence and every type of negative impact.

Originally Posted by ExRat

Therefore, there must be some warriors who have managed to get over the fact that every market will have scammers and hucksters, and that at times some of them will infiltrate here. Some warriors must have been able to see past that and continued to offer the right advice here, regardless of how many others weren't

I know I must at least try to move on, as I can't do anything to change people over the Internet in a marketers forum. But I try to educate others to think differently about scammers, and people falling for their tactics.

But Integrity, ethics, they are also fields I feel strongly for, and that have been starting to leak in a few societies.

As socialism pave a way to a more open society, socialism also pave us to negative impacts on our lives, and as we are part of a pack, we like to feel accepted, scamming get under our skins but we fear the ridicule of others, as the process could get long.

We react upon this, as we start to feel weak, without any impact to believe we can change how we live, and think -- and now, here I am trying to make some changes for myself. And Hopefully I can inspire one or two members here, to see victims as more human than the ones pulling their guns on them, so I take a stand. And I am not afraid to take a blow for others.

[KenStrong]

Originally Posted by artwebster

Listen guys! I know that you all want to make money and I know that many of you want to do it in the offline arena BUT DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO RIP YOUR CLIENTS OFF?

Why are you yelling at the forum? Was it a Warrior who did this?

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by seasoned

OK, maybe I implied something I shouldn't. YEAH, I know it is common. I know a restaurant owner that does WELL! Sometimes, people buy his restaurants, change them, fail, and the owner would buy it back, for less than he sold it. It is almost like that old "I love lucy" skit! I went to two of his restaurants while he owned them. They are NICE, and do WELL. Still, people manage to faiil!

I was just saying that that licensee was just STUPID! His failure shouldn't be something to brag about, etc...

Steve

I'll agree with you on the specific licensee. Going into a competitor's place of business and pitching a fit because they won't just go away smacks of a spoiled kindergartner than a business person.

Were it me with that unfortunate license, either I or someone I trusted would have been camped out watching the more successful store to try and see what they were doing differently. Which suppliers were delivering? How often? Anything unusual in the traffic patterns? Etc...

As they say, success leaves clues...

[Magic Johnson]

Yeah, that's what every other Internet Marketer tells themself. That's also why we stop learning, as we can't get rid of our own prset preferances, so do anybody wants to hear real factos from YP results.

You are off base! And it may sting.

What I know is that one YP ad in a local city generates in above 1000 phone calls a
year for one lawyer I know.

Now, this is basically also the kind of prospects he wants to have around him. As they just picked up the YP to find themself a lawyer. And they are all lukewarm prospects and many times agree on a deal during a phone conversation.

Google can do a lot of wonders to businesses, but we not to compare it with YP as that's an mostly run offline business model, two different animals. Both very successful tools, if used for the right reasons.

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

With a lot of people, the only time the Yellow Pages is touched is when new books are dropped off and you need to replace them! For more and more people, looking for a business in Google has replaced looking up businesses in the Yellow Pages.

[Magic Johnson]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Why are you yelling at the forum? Was it a Warrior who did this?

Why even with good intentions, have we to explain ourselves out, as we believe others are under some "agendas".

Who cares if it was a WF member or not. Why are we so afraid, to say listen "this couple got scammed", instead we like to judge it as their own fault..

As-- "no this can't be the case"

It's a Nightmare, as we are all marketers here, that's like saying " I scammed this couple""

This was an example of how "we not to deal clients in and make money on the offline gold business model".

Why question the OP's integrity, as he is a bad Judge for spotting not a scam, but a fable that can under no chance be true for us, as marketers???

**
I am done for tonight (3:00 AM here), I edited my last three posts, to run smoother, and with a more humid atmosphere towards my opinions, as I know and I know it is pointed out often, that I sometimes come across as rude and a synical person.

[Craig McPherson]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

but a fable that can under no chance be true for us, as marketers???

I think I will take an aspirin and lie down

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

to run smoother, and with a more humid atmosphere towards my opinions,

What has the weather got to do with it?

[KenStrong]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

Why question the OP's integrity, as he is a bad Judge for spotting not a scam, but a fable that can under no chance be true for us, as marketers???

Where did you get that I'm questioning his integrity? I asked a simple question. He seems to be connecting this particular instance of scam with the recent popularity of "Offline Gold" marketing here on the Forum... he's taking a single event, which deserves all the scorn he's heaping on it, and appears to be painting a large group of Warriors with the same brush.

I'm also not sure what the "offline" part has to do with it. If someone's inclined to scam someone, I doubt that it matters that much whether it's online or offline.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

Yeah, that's what every other Internet Marketer tells themself. That's also why we stop learning, as we can't get rid of our own prset preferances, so do anybody wants to hear real factos from YP results.

You are off base! And it may sting.

What I know is that one YP ad in a local city generates in above 1000 phone calls a
year for one lawyer I know.

Now, this is basically also the kind of prospects he wants to have around him. As they just picked up the YP to find themself a lawyer. And they are all lukewarm prospects and many times agree on a deal during a phone conversation.

Google can do a lot of wonders to businesses, but we not to compare it with YP as that's an mostly run offline business model, two different animals. Both very successful tools, if used for the right reasons.

Sorry, but, over the years, many business owners have fallen "victim" to Yellow Pages ads, believing they had to be in the Yellow Pages because that was "the thing to do." And, that includes the days before the Internet was commonplace.

When you're talking about lawyers, doctors, plumbers, etc., where people don't think of them until they need one, then it may have been commonplace for them to grab the Yellow Pages and look through the listings. But, for many other businesses, people used the Yellow Pages not to find a business but to find the phone number for a specific business they were already determined to buy from. In those cases, a display ad offers no benefit because all the people were looking for was the phone number.

I know of businesses that dropped their Yellow Pages advertising not because they didn't think it was effective but because they tested it and discovered it wasn't effective.

In many respects, the Yellow Pages were doing to small business owners what Internet marketers are accused of doing to small business owners in this thread.

The lesson here is to test things, not to take at face value what any marketer tells you. But, from my experience, and my experience with others (and I should point out that much of my experience is with "offline" business owners and not Internet marketers), going forward, the better investment of advertising dollars for businesses is not in the Yellow Pages but in online media.

[Nathan Hangen]

If you are in business, you should be smart enough to do your own research before you pay someone that kind of money. I'm not going to pass judgment on either side without knowing all of the facts, but creating websites and maintaining them is no easy task.

[artwebster]

I am very pleased to see such a lively reaction to my original post but dismayed at the attempts to defend a style of marketing (doesn't "offline cash cow" sound just a little exploitative?) without bearing in mind the circumstances.

You can be sure that my friends are well aware of my opinion of their acceptance of this ludicrous offer and that they will certainly never do anything like that again.

I tried to make it clear that the type of shop they are running is specifically designed to service the local population and to get the very best level of sales that they can from it.


I don't think that Spain has a monopoly on the types of new entrepreneurs who understand this model and use it to create their first business nor does Spain have the monopoly in new business owners who are still naïve enough to believe the blandishments of a marketer using technospeak and false premise as the basis of his presentation.

This shop has a POR of 9% and this will probably be improved on as initial capitalisation is amortised provided they don't get sold more useless capital items.

Within a kilometre there are two other similar shops and three small kiosks all selling exactly the same products (I believe licencing laws have a big impact on exactly what can be sold) but the impulse market is very viable and this shop has located a small area that was not well served in the pick and mix trade.

Let's clear up something that seems to be accepted by so many people - local services do not get searched for in Google! Pick and mix sweet shops do not get searched for in Google. Nobody wanting to buy some sweets plans the purchase in advance - they buy them on impulse from the shop as they go past or walk to the shop from their home as the fancy takes them.

Local services in a town, even as large as Coín, are found by repute or by knocking on a neighbours door and explaining a problem and asking who they use to fix that problem. Yellow Pages is dying because business owners are realising how many people like me don't even bother to take the shrink wrap off our copies.

People searching the internet are looking for information.

People with a burst water pipe, a sudden craving for peaches or an insatiable desire for pick and mix sweets, despite all that has been said in this and other forums, don't start searching on Google - they go to where they know the solution is to be found, the local plumber, the local fruit shop or the local pick and mix shop. Not a very fashionable idea, I know, but when did you last search Google for a local service?

[artwebster]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Where did you get that I'm questioning his integrity? I asked a simple question. He seems to be connecting this particular instance of scam with the recent popularity of "Offline Gold" marketing here on the Forum... he's taking a single event, which deserves all the scorn he's heaping on it, and appears to be painting a large group of Warriors with the same brush.

I'm also not sure what the "offline" part has to do with it. If someone's inclined to scam someone, I doubt that it matters that much whether it's online or offline.

Hi, Ken,

I read a lot of what is said and promoted in these forum boards and all I will say is 'if the cap fits' . . . .

As for why I was shouting - I read a lot of what is said in these forum boards and can't help feeling very angry when I come across a prime example of what is often promoted here.

"Offline Gold" is not 'recently popular', it has always been a legitimate area of web master sales but the blatant exploitation of innocents is 'recently popular'. (Since the 'offline cash cow' was accepted as a reasonable beast to slaughter.)

[AndrewCavanagh]

Originally Posted by artwebster

"Offline Gold" is not 'recently popular', it has always been a legitimate area of web master sales

Actually to be accurate "Offline Gold" is simply the abbreviated name of a report I wrote in Janauary 2008...Offline Gold For The Online Marketer.

So when people talk about "offline Gold" or the "offline Gold" niche they're simply naming my product...even though some people don't even seem to know that which doesn't reflect on them well.

The "offline cash cow" was simply a thread with a letter that David Preston provided free to forum members here that they could send to local business owners in an effort to get hired.

So exactly what is an "offline cash cow proponent"?

The correct description would be someone who sends out David Preston's letter by snail mail offering a gift internet marketing consultation...hardly a good description of the kind of activity you're talking about in your post.


It's unfair and unreasonable to suggest that because someone is making their living selling their services to local business owners they'd be involved in any kind of deal that could never make a business owner real profits.

There are good accountants and bad accountants, good carpenters and bad carpenters.

If a bad accountant screws up your books you don't blame the whole world of accounting for it.

If a bad carpenter creates a shoddy cupboard you don't blame the wood.

I agree that there are quite a few threads on this forum where the people making posts should be thinking a whole lot more about helping the businesses they're working with to make real sales and profits.

But there are also plenty of threads where internet marketers have made business owners some very good sales and profits.

Whether you genuinely try to help the businesses you work with or whether you try to just take their money and run comes down to your personal integrity...and a high level of personal integrity is unfortunately...nowhere near as common as it should be in any industry.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Matt M]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

Are we building a society, built on trust, or none.

A lot of lawyers would be out of work.

If you come into my shop and tell me that you are a business person and can provide a service for me then yes initially there is a certain amount of trust and assumption.

I can safely assume right now that if I hear footsteps in my hallway that it is not an elephant and probably a person.

But back to the sales person I'm about to do business with, before I write out a check I'm going to be signing papers with you right?

That keeps us both honest. If one defaults according to the agreement then we have a way to rectify the situation.

If I assumed incorrectly that you were going to design my website using our national language and you failed to satisfy my needs in that regard then off to court we go.

This is called business. There are plenty of things that go into the "cost of doing business". Not just making sure you pay the light bill but also covering your behind in the event that Mary K. Suemaster decides to slip on your steps. Insurance.

Or, the shoplifter. The employee who likes to pilfer.

Maybe even the website designer that does not know what language they speak in Spain.

It's not the end of the world. It's business.

Get a good accountant. Get a good lawyer. And try to keep your head out of your ass and you might make a living.

p.s. That last bit was not directed at you Magic, or anyone that participated or will participate in this thread.

[Always-A-Warrior]

I've got three letters for you .... .TEL - no hosting needed. no seo needed, no html needed. its direct communication between your company and your prospect.

And it cost just $10 a year. .TEL is for mobile and browser. Google it and see. Forget SEO companies.

No worries I'm not selling anything here.

[ExRat]

Hi Art,

Let's clear up something that seems to be accepted by so many people - local services do not get searched for in Google!
[snip]
People searching the internet are looking for information.

People with a burst water pipe, a sudden craving for peaches or an insatiable desire for pick and mix sweets, despite all that has been said in this and other forums, don't start searching on Google - they go to where they know the solution is to be found, the local plumber, the local fruit shop or the local pick and mix shop. Not a very fashionable idea, I know, but when did you last search Google for a local service?

Great selective examples Art - but not representative enough to make your statements correct.

I'm not going to suggest that this sweet shop needs a website. I'm not going to suggest that everyone in Coin uses the internet to find things either.

But this -

Let's clear up something that seems to be accepted by so many people - local services do not get searched for in Google!

....is humbug.

when did you last search Google for a local service?

Last week?

Sure, you can find specific examples - like if your pipe is already leaking, you will take the fastest route to finding a plumber's number.

But what about if you want the address or phone number of the plumber's merchant? What if you want to check the stock of the local national high street store (PCworld, argos, comet) before you make the trip to buy an item?

What if you want to check their opening times at the weekend?

What if you want to establish a list of different stores that sell a type of product, so you can visit them all, because you know in advance it's going to be a 'hard to find' item.

There are tons of local searches done. Check the keyword tools SE results.

They might not be for a sweet shop in Coin, but that doesn't justify throwing around ridiculous absolutes like -

local services do not get searched for in Google!

Add to this that the internet is gaining traction, not losing it. Add to this that as time passes, more and more ordinary people are going to get cheap access to the internet on handheld electronic devices. Are they going to carry yellow pages in their car? Are they going to ring directory services to ripped for £3?

Or when their car breaks down, are they going to whip out the blackberry and find the NEAREST local solution?

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by billyboy

The startement belwos is no better than scamming people and saying "well if they are dumb enough to fall for it that's their look out"

Are you kidding me? Where have I said that it is acceptable to scam somebody.

Yes, from what the OP said, it doesn't necessarily look like a good situation, however we haven't seen the website, haven't seen how long the website has been up, and do not know exactly what SEO has/ is being done.

I don't know who designed the website but I do know that there are plenty of people out there who are putting there best efforts to ensure that their clients do benefit from being online.

I know that the OP was just frustrated because he felt that friends of his had not received the best deal. This is understandable. It just seemed to me that the tone of his post unfairly tarnished those who work damn hard to benefit their clients. Like every industry, you cannot let a few bad apples tarnish the whole industry.

It sucks that the OP thinks his friends have been taken for a ride. I do hope that he can help them improve their situation and best utilise the benefits of online marketing.

As I have previously mentioned, as have others, there are benefits to being online even if not for Google Searches- newsletters, vouchers etc.

And yes, every business owner should practice due diligence in all situations to get the best deal for their business.

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by artwebster

local services do not get searched for in Google! Pick and mix sweet shops do not get searched for in Google.

The first is not true. The second probably is. That's because a retail vendor of a commodity is NOT a service business.

Local search for service oriented businesses has outstripped even Yellow Pages: MediaPost Publications Small Business Not Keeping Up With Online Presence 02/13/2009 That's why you see dumpsters in major cities marked "Yellow Pages ONLY". Idearc (publisher of the Verizon Yellow Pages) recently declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Art, I understand that you are chronically ill and probably live with constant pain. That doesn't give you the right to be wrong (or wrong-headed).

Attempting to tar everyone who follows a particular model or method with the same brush as your local scamster is simply bad thinking. Further, if you don't like the "hype" aspect of promoting a way to get offline clients, how does complaining about it and ignoring those who are doing it ethically further your point?

Get over yourself, Art. You're destroying your own credibility when you proffer your opinion as fact -- and are wrong.

[FlightGuy]

I think for all of us who know Art's particular honesty, it's always for the better intention (in his mind).

So before I continue, Art, I appreciate the intention of your original post and commend you for genuinely helping a business owner who is less educated in our field.

I absolutely disagree with your follow-up posts, however, and it just seems as though you are stabbing at anything just to be right.

I must say that I completely agree with Andrew here:

It's unfair and unreasonable to suggest that because someone is making their living selling their services to local business owners they'd be involved in any kind of deal that could never make a business owner real profits.

There are good accountants and bad accountants, good carpenters and bad carpenters.

Now, I understand that this might not relate to your [clients] case exactly, whereas you have stated your observations of the promises made, charges incurred, etc. but I will say that it is in your tone and outwardly expressed opinion of this business model that causes the particular responses you see here, often regarded as refuting.

To answer your question,

when did you last search Google for a local service?

I can honestly say that just three days ago I searched for an electrician to come look at a problem that I had in my kitchen with a series of outlets that stopped working. He had it fixed in less than an hour. Just yesterday I searched for my local beach conditions online (successfully as well) as I wanted to bring my dog to the beach with me.

So yes, people ARE using local search to find local businesses and they are doing it with success. I'm not saying that there would be searches for a local pick and mix candy shop, but I will say that there is definitely ways for the shop to benefit from internet marketing methods (as mentioned by many - getting customers on an email list and sending out promotions and incentives for coming back).

It is one thing to not be fond of the Offline Cash Cow proponent, but it is another to try disproving the benefits of the business model it refers or caters to.

Respectfully,
John Dennis

[artwebster]

It is one thing to not be fond of the Offline Cash Cow proponent, but it is another to try disproving the benefits of the business model it refers or caters to.

I do promote a method of providing a genuine service to offline clients. I do realise that there can be major benefits - or I would not promote it. I also realise - and anybody who has read some of the posts in this forum will know - that the offline cash cow label has been adopted as a rather derogatory nomenclature for clients who operate in the real world.

I don't care who coined the phrase and I don't care how long it has been in existence but I do care that it has become accepted as a legitimate description of the type of trade that nearly cost my friends a lot of money.

It has been fascinating to see how a simple tale about the simple rip off of a simple pick and mix sweet shop has been the catalyst for an 'all hands to the pump' bailing out exercise.

What was done to my friends was the height of greed and ignorance and, in my simple way, I thought it gave a superb example of how not to behave.

Yes. My friends were stupid to be taken in by someone posing as an expert. They were even more stupid to think that he could be trusted to tell them the truth and that they did not need to check him out.

But it is also true that this person was fired up up by a desire to exploit a young couple whom he would have known as soon as he started talking to them, had little experience of business.

He did not go in to find a problem and solve it or to offer anything that he could demonstrate would help.

He went in with an agenda that was to sell a web site and a monthly maintenance 'service'.

All the wriggling and squirming that has been going on to try to justify this action in this particular case has been a shocking revelation to me.

I suppose I may have been wrong about local services not being searched for on the internet. I have never done it myself and can't imagine a situation when it would even occur to me to do so but there must be people who do not have neighbours or do not know the town in which they live.

[Rezbi]

Art,

I have to agree with you here... I don't see why such a shop even needs a site at such an early stage.

I had a school ask me to do a site for them as they think it's SO important for marketing.

I had to explain to them that a web site is not a marketing tool but just another shop on the web.

You have to then do the marketing to get that known as well.

Unfortunately, scam artists will say anything to make a quick buck.

Some might say it's not much money, but it bloody well is if it's unnecessary expense.

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by artwebster

All the wriggling and squirming that has been going on to try to justify this action in this particular case has been a shocking revelation to me.

LOL! Art, people were telling you that you were over the top. If you're "shocked" that people would disagree with you, that's your problem. Nobody was trying to justify ripping off people. Read for content, dude.

I suppose I may have been wrong about local services not being searched for on the internet. I have never done it myself and can't imagine a situation when it would even occur to me to do so but there must be people who do not have neighbours or do not know the town in which they live.

That's the problem with isolating yourself from the larger world around you. You not only ignored the research that shows how folks are going online -- you reduced the whole argument to what you would do, how you felt, what you would have done, etc.

"Angry guy has a hissy-fit. Don't disagree with anything he says!" Phlegm at 11.

[stayfocused]

Originally Posted by artwebster

I don't care who coined the phrase and I don't care how long it has been in existence but I do care that it has become accepted as a legitimate description of the type of trade that nearly cost my friends a lot of money.

What was done to my friends was the height of greed and ignorance and, in my simple way, I thought it gave a superb example of how not to behave.

Yes. My friends were stupid to be taken in by someone posing as an expert. They were even more stupid to think that he could be trusted to tell them the truth and that they did not need to check him out.

But it is also true that this person was fired up up by a desire to exploit a young couple whom he would have known as soon as he started talking to them, had little experience of business.

He did not go in to find a problem and solve it or to offer anything that he could demonstrate would help.

He went in with an agenda that was to sell a web site and a monthly maintenance 'service'.

All the wriggling and squirming that has been going on to try to justify this action in this particular case has been a shocking revelation to me.

Originally Posted by artwebster

This couple had been charged €1,000 ($1395.91) for their web site and €100 ($139.59) a month to maintain it and build a mailing list.

Are you seriously this outraged at this? $1395 for a website is the smallest amount I have ever heard of company or shop of any size being charged for a website. Most of my clients have spent $xx,xxx for websites that have produced 0 results (before I walked into their lives).

$139 a month to maintain the site and help them build a mailing list? Do you honestly think that is overpriced?

I honestly can't wrap my mind around your level of outrage for this particular case. These are some of the lowest prices I have ever seen charged.

If the person did build them a website and maintains and helps them build a list, I think that would be worth every penny they paid him/her. SEO or not.

Business owners don't want to have anything to do with this type of work. They don't want to learn how to make changes on their website. They don't want to know how to load up an autoresponder series. They just want it done for them and they don't mind paying for it.

[ExRat]

Hi Art,

With respect -

All the wriggling and squirming that has been going on to try to justify this action in this particular case has been a shocking revelation to me.

...what you are classing as 'wriggling and squirming' 'to try and justify this action' is not at all. I don't think anyone has tried to justify it at all.

This is what many of us have tried to point out to you. You choose to see things, including the words that other people type, in the way that you choose to see them - paying little attention to their obvious actual meaning.

In many ways, this is no less deceitful than the acts of the seller in your story.

Example -

I suppose I may have been wrong about local services not being searched for on the internet. I have never done it myself and can't imagine a situation when it would even occur to me to do so but there must be people who do not have neighbours or do not know the town in which they live.

So because of your personal experiences and your (seemingly deliberately) blinkered attitude towards the subject (if you lived in London, would you know the location of every business?) you feel that this justifies adding blanket absolutes such as -

local services do not get searched for in Google!

Therefore it is impossible to have a sensible and logical discussion or debate with you - and this is not the first thread where I have explained this to you and shown you proof of your attempts to do it.

With the utmost respect Art, you are behaving like a forum troll, which is a shame because I like you, but I will not waste my time with someone who twists things and uses wordplay to try and prove a point unfairly - especially when the point that they are continually trying to make revolves around negative slurs towards large groups of the members of the forum.

All the best.

[Thomas Belknap]

Personally, I think Art loves to look for these types of things to complain about. It seems that if people don't agree with him than they are squirming and other lovely statements which is why I don't respond to a lot of his posts. If Art says they got scammed than it must be true!


We only have one side of the story and Art seems to like to look for the negatives. At least that is what I have seen from his contribution on this forum.

[Chuck Staff]

Food for thought...

I've always thought that the mark of a true professional sales person is knowing when to tell a prospect your product is not right for them - they shouldn't buy what you're selling. And then go on to help them solve the problem they have - even if it means referring them to a competitor. This policy has always resulted in an increase in sales over the long haul - through referrals, etc.

Warrior Jamie Garside has a WSO posted as we speak directed at the Offline Marketing segment. (Hope it's ok to reference it here: **The RENT-A-SITE Model! OFFLINE REAL ESTATE, THE FUTURE OF OFFLINE CASH COW** )

In the Reply Posts another Warrior asked him if his report talked about what prices he should charge. I found Jamie's response (quoted below) to be a great example of an ethical marketers perspective:

Originally Posted by GoGetta

Hi Dennis,

I have outlined my starting fees within the guide yes, although not in detail!

The thing is with price there are way too many variables which is why many never say what they charge. There is no set fee as every business is different, every campaign is different and its all flexible.

It all depends in the job in hand.

GoGetta

No one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach. Tailor your marketing and proposals to each individual business.

[la dominatrix]

This sort of shop will never benefit from online marketing because they serve a very specific niche, the children of the local urbanizations, the parents of the children of the local urbanizations, the grand parents of the children of the local urbanizations and passing traffic. No matter what searches people did for sweets or confectionary online, this couple’s web site was never Nº1 unless a very specific search term in quotations was used – IN ENGLISH!!!!! Since 90% of the people in this area are Spanish speakers . . . . . do I have to draw a picture?

In my experience in Malaga it happens all the time, it is extremely hard to understand why a local sweet shop would want a website.

[Bev Clement]

I have been offline for many hours and come back to an "interesting" thread.

Art, just because you can't see why people use Google to search for local services doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In my understanding a sweet shop isn't a local service, they are either a retail or wholesale shop, which make it totally different.

Why would people use Google to search for services?

We have been out of the UK for 5 years, we have just arrived back a week ago. We stayed in an area we didn't know, and are now in a different part of London. Things change in 5 years, shops are boarded up, stores have closed.

We are here for a few weeks, and there will be times we need to find a service. I will use Google to see if the hairdresser I used 5 years ago is still in business. I will use Google to find the nearest supermarket to where we are. I will use Google to find restaurants. I will use Google to find a mini cab company.

Do I know the area, no. Do I know the neighbours, no. We came to where we are less than 48 hours ago.

I for one will use the local searches for everything I need in the next few weeks, and people who move to a new area will do the same.

[Izesta]

Originally Posted by artwebster

People searching the internet are looking for information.

People with a burst water pipe, a sudden craving for peaches or an insatiable desire for pick and mix sweets, despite all that has been said in this and other forums, don't start searching on Google - they go to where they know the solution is to be found, the local plumber, the local fruit shop or the local pick and mix shop. Not a very fashionable idea, I know, but when did you last search Google for a local service?

Call me a freak I suppose, but I search for local services often. And I know many others that do also.

For my website, I check the Google Local Dashboard for my local listing so I see that thousands of others are others are likewise searching locally. I don't have full faith and confidence in Google's local search algorithm right now, but the information isn't totally wrong either. Visitors click on my site, respond on my blog, and call my office. Naturally, I do my best to track calls and visitors. And I find out they found me on Google - specifically a Google local search.

As for emergency services, I rarely search anywhere for emergency local services. I have emergency contacts already posted on a board at home and in my cell phone.

But whether 5 people search every week or 5000 people search every week, businesses should be listed in Google local. If they don't want to pay anyone, they can do it themselves for free (it's not rocket science).

Not having a Google local listing is like turning down the business white page listing in the phone book.

[Rezbi]

Searching for local services is one thing... I do... but does that really include a small sweet shop?

[Bev Clement]

Art did you read the first response I put in this thread.

last Monday and Tuesday I ran a live workshop in London. The people who attended have no web presence at all. Most of the people are looking to start a business, and they had no idea what they could do.

No, I didn't teach them consultancy. I didn't teach them IM, in 2 days there wasn't enough time.

But here is the point.

I asked the room, "How many of you use yellow pages to find an address or telephone number?" The answer was 100% the same, not one single person used yellow pages.

I then asked, "How many of you use Google to find what you are looking for?" The answer again was 100% every single person used Google to find what they were looking for.

These are the people who are not Internet Marketers, who are not au fait with the internet, but still use Google to search for everything they need.

Art because you don't use Google, don't assume the rest of the world is the same.

If you hate IM so much, then go and do something different. But, please if you are going to make a blanket statement, based on your preferences, stop and do some research to find out what the reality is.

Maybe that is why you have a problem making money online, because you think everybody should do the same things you do. No, I am not talking about having to scam people, but being aware, that if you want to make money online, you have to sell something. And selling something doesn't mean you have to sell your soul.

Pride comes in many forms, and so often people have reversed pride where they hope people will take pity on them.

Just because you hate offline cash, doesn't mean everybody does.

There are many aspects to the offline niche as there are many aspects to the online niche. If you dig deep, you will find your niche, and then be able to help those who have been misguided, but please, don't expect us to do everything you say. This isn't the gospel according to Art. There are many different views and just because I don't agree with someone, doesn't make it wrong.

Scammers are scammer, they are in both online and offline niches, and it should be the buyer who does their due dilligence before they commit to anything.

Closing the door after the horse has bolted, wont stop the horse bolting

[Corwinnx]

I didn't read this entire thread, for reasons likely already known, but if someone else has pointed this out, mods please feel free to delete my two cents here.

Maybe they should rank for more than just 'one keyword.' But 2 important facts...

1.)People do search local markets.. and for things probably you wouldn't too much expect... (if you're in the US on the outskirts mabye of a fairly large city, try searching the name of your city + storage).... in one city where Becky had a client... there were 3,000 searches for the term each month, yet only 8 competing websites.

2.) Ever heard of 'mail order.' The Internet can give a small 'candy store' a 'global presence' if they have the right 'hook' (maybe a rare type of chocolate only found in Spain, or some other very 'nice' (even if it's 'created') type of candy... this company could begin shipping their 'sweets online' the world over with a web presence like that combined with the right hook.

*As a 'male'... when it's 3 weeks til Valentine's Day, Wedding Anniversary, Birthday, whatever.... and I know I'm dead meat if I don't have flowers AND candy (not to mention the gift itself which if I'm smart will be jewlery, and I'm a hero if it's lingerie- I shudder to think of how revered I would be if it were all of the above, but I digress)... I might be inclined to try for the 'romantic idea' of having something delivered to her and might search 'sweets online.' I might stumble across this website and buy from them either because I found them or because of some 'unique' factor that their product offers.

And if I were a female (as Becky and I discussed this topic and I asked her) I might be planning a wedding and looking for some kind of 'sweet' favor for the reception tables, and I found this website, and again, especially if it had a cool USP (like 'IT COMES FROM SPAIN!).... I just might think that would be a great idea!


Ok.. my two cents... butting out now.


Warmest Regards,
Marcus

[JohnMcCabe]

There are more reasons to have a website than being found by people who no longer use Yellow Pages.

While Art's friends may have been convinced to buy more than they need, a website could be a very good thing for them...

> It could save them the bother of deciding whether to tend the customer standing at the counter or answer the phone so the caller can find out if they're open. Posting business hours on a website can help lighten that load.

> It gives them an additional place to post specials and new products.

> Collecting emails was already mentioned, although in this case a $10 bound guest book might be more effective.

> If their mix stays fairly constant, they could post a list of candies they carry. Again, it might save on some of the "do you carry thus-and-such" inquiries.

If I might offer an example, my wife is almost the anti-techie. Email and simple surfing the net are the extent of her skills. Yet she is constantly searching for websites for businesses she already knows, hoping to find information before, or in lieu of, calling on the phone.

Since neither she nor I use the latest model cell phones, each car has a copy of the local phone book - just in case. They do get used - a couple of times a year, at least.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Ut

Then you don't have to worry about anything Steve, coz our biz go down with it and we all die from the WF withdrawal

WRONG!!!!!!!! Is there even ONE decent company here that REALLY has their server at home and ONE point of failure? Out of those, if any, HOW many even run their client off it!?!?!?

MORE to the point though, HOW many of those are running all their clients sites off of it, advertising other clients, and are their clients ONLY customers!?!?!? And how many of those business are brick and mortar yet run 100% off the internet? HECK, you DON'T have to answer that last question because if you say all of them, you should check yourself into a hospital right now!

NOBODY CARES about how much trouble YOU have regarding their business. They don't even care if anyone can access their site! They DON'T even care if anyone can access their shop! What they care about is if they can SAVE THE SALE! If your customer can't contact YOU, they may well contact your COMPETITOR! If they can contact you, and you can't help them, you STILL may be able to get business. That has NOTHING to do with the internet. *******************NOTHING**********************! Sorry, business has been running for THOUSANDS of years WITHOUT the internet. The internet still FAILS to do most things. If you try to advertise a store, the internet is a SMALL part of it. THAT is why major companies STILL advertise, EVEN if only to advertise their company and website.

Steve

[ExRat]

Hi Steve,

Wow! I'm used to your asterixes and CAPS but that post topped the lot!

When you said that 'nothing' I reckon you really meant it...

[RainDrop]

Originally Posted by seasoned

And WHAT if your connection goes down? What if the power goes out?

Directory Assistance aka 411 from the landline or cell phone. If the power is out, it's probably too dark to read the yellow pages, anyway.

Interesting thread, I can see good points from all sides on this one.

[AndrewCavanagh]

It's internesting to note that many people have started using Google like a phone book.

When they need a plumber they search for their town and plumber and call the first one that has a phone number in the Google search engine results (hint: put a phone number and USP in your Meta description).

Personally I search on Google most of the time whenever I make any kind of local purchase or if I'm looking for a local business.

Unfortunately the websites I find are rarely genuinely helpful...although they DO help me find a physical address for a business and then I can work out how to get there using Google Maps.

Google Maps...that really cool application that shows you how to get from your home to any address...including any business address.

That alone is just ONE reason many people now search for local businesses online...it's a whole lot easier to get directions using Google Maps when you do an online search.

You can also do that search ON YOUR MOBILE PHONE.

There are more people with mobile phones now than there are with personal computers.

And if you're in a city or a town looking for a specific type of business what better way to find it than doing a search on Google with Google Maps to see which one is closest to you.

The number of people finding local businesses by searching online is HUGE.

We know this because we have clients who are getting clients this way in pretty much every different kind of business you can imagine.

And the number of different ways you can help a business increase its sales and profits by integrating online and offline marketing is also huge and by no means limited to making them a website or getting them listed on Google.

I'm not challenging your digust at an internet marketing consultant who doesn't get real results for their clients.

What the people making posts here are challenging is some of your assumptions about the different ways local businesses CAN be helped with internet marketing and integrating online marketing and offline marketing.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[artwebster]

We only have one side of the story and Art seems to like to look for the negatives. At least that is what I have seen from his contribution on this forum.

You are probably right, Thomas with a slight adjustment - I see what you like to call the negative and choose not to try to convince myself that it is not there. My philosophy is very simple - it is humanly impossible to be negative. We do not have the sophistication of language and terminology to make a negative statement.

By highlighting a situation that was morally indefensible I sought to balance out the hysteria that 'off line cash cow' tends to generate by illustrating that ripping off a trusting and gullible client is not the way to go.

It seems that defending my position in respect of this particular case has resulted in certain members being 'insulted'. If they behave in such a manner I can see why they might feel ashamed but - 'insulted'?

Some of the responses in this topic have been valuable and well thought out - others have been knee-jerk reactions and many have been written without reference to what has gone before. Based upon my post that was determined as 'insulting other members' wherein not a single member was named or indicated, I suppose I should really look back and see how many times I could become 'insulted' by some of the things said about me?

If a robust defence and strong argument are not to be allowed - what is left? Or is it only MY robust defence and strong argument that is questionable?

[derekwong28]

People do use SE to find local business such as restaurants and cinemas. But sweetshops would rather iffy. Again this is something we don't know.

There is something you can do to test it out. Ask the shop owners to put a discount coupon on their website for people to print and see whether they get any customers coming in with the coupons.

[Richard Tunnah]

It is shocking what is going on in the name of SEO or webmarketing sometimes. What is even worse for me is that some local trade organisations have tie ups with some truly dreadful so called web marketing/web design/SEO companies. I recently had a conversation with a local tradesman that was paying nearly £600 a year ($1000) for a webpage with his name and phone number on it - no domain, no seo and no content. He was promised he'd get a load of new customers from it. I explained to him that 'his' site needed so much more to get customers. I just don't understand why this company didn't set these sites up right. They could have dominated the local search and made a small fortune as he suggested their were at least 30 trades people that got the same deal and he like others wouldn't be continuing to pay this company the $1000 a year. That's at least $30,000 a year this company could have made with a high percentage profit IF they'd done it right!

Rich

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by artwebster

Based upon my post that was determined as 'insulting other members' wherein not a single member was named or indicated, I suppose I should really look back and see how many times I could become 'insulted' by some of the things said about me?

audacter calumniare semper aliquid haeret – slander boldly, something always sticks

If a robust defence and strong argument are not to be allowed - what is left? Or is it only MY robust defence and strong argument that is questionable?

You aren't "defending" anything -- you're trying to do "controversy marketing" and "forum marketing" of your own info-product on the subject.

Disclaimer: I have no info-product to sell on this subject at this time.

[FlightGuy]

Originally Posted by Vince Runza Online

Disclaimer: I have no info-product to sell on this subject at this time.

Vince, you sneaky dog, you! Don't be fooled by his reverse psychology marketing ploys, everyone!! Run for the hillsss!

[Paul Myers]

billyboy,

Anyone here EVER gone online looking for a sweet shop?

Yep. Looking to see if there were more local shops that made sugar-free chocolates than the one I knew of at the time. And that's just deliberately choosing local stuff. You'd be surprised at the things I've searched for online in the way of commodities. I'm not saying it's common, but the answer is yes, at least in my case.

I have a friend who does pretty well with... are you ready... fortune cookies.

Online. Really.

Custom, Personalized and Giant Chinese Fortune Cookies

Art,

local services do not get searched for in Google!

I believe you mean well, but I have to say it...

You're nuts. At least as far as how things are done in the US. Couldn't say what happens in Spain, but you're making absolute statements that are not even close to absolutely true.

I will say also that I really like your objection to the "cash cow" label. I don't think it's appropriate to think of clients or potential clients in anything like that way. Kudos are due for that position.

it is humanly impossible to be negative

No. It is not. You do it on a habitual basis. You're unusual, in that you normally use negativity to seek a positive goal, but you're negative nonetheless.

You can be a pain in the ___, Art, but so can the swift kick we all need sometimes.


Paul

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by FlightGuy

Vince, you sneaky dog, you! Don't be fooled by his reverse psychology marketing ploys, everyone!! Run for the hillsss!

I'm devoting all my energy to working with brick-and-mortar businesses. Peddling info-products on the subject helped me research the subject and provided bread-and-butter income while I did so.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by RainDrop

Directory Assistance aka 411 from the landline or cell phone. If the power is out, it's probably too dark to read the yellow pages, anyway.

Interesting thread, I can see good points from all sides on this one.

I don't know... what about during the day? What about most of the weekend?

And directory assistance is often no good these days. They want a city and listing name. Sometimes the closest one is in another city. Besides, they charge for 411 now, at least in most areas in the US.

Steve

[artwebster]

You aren't "defending" anything -- you're trying to do "controversy marketing" and "forum marketing" of your own info-product on the subject.

Well, Vince,

YOU have the absolute GALL to accuse me of being insulting!

That is the most offensive, obnoxious and insulting thing that anybody has said about me. I am truly sick and tired of the abject inability of individuals in these forums to try to defend anything without having to resort to personal attacks.

1 - My friends were ripped off.

2 - No amount of IMspeak will ever justify the treatment that they received.

3 - I reported their story here to try to get some understanding within the members of this forum of what they should not do.

4 - I have insulted no-one. I have promoted nothing. I have been very surprised at the degree of support for the rip off merchant.

That's the trouble, though, isn't it, I still trust people to behave honourably and I still retain a basic faith in people wanting to do the right thing.

Stupid of me.

[Bev Clement]

Art, can I ask you 1 question? Am I invisible?

If you don't know why I ask the question, go back and read my response.

Stop having selective vision

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by artwebster

1 - My friends were ripped off.

You have never actually shown us the website that was built.

2 - No amount of IMspeak will ever justify the treatment that they received.

What IM speak? Disagreeing with you about local search possibilities

3 - I reported their story here to try to get some understanding within the members of this forum of what they should not do.

Again, you've given half a story. Did the person who sold them the site build a site. How long has it been online for? Do you deny the person who built the site the possibility of earning a good living wage?

4 - I have insulted no-one. I have promoted nothing. I have been very surprised at the degree of support for the rip off merchant.

Every time you post, your product related to this niche being discussed is advertised.

That's the trouble, though, isn't it, I still trust people to behave honourably and I still retain a basic faith in people wanting to do the right thing.

Stupid of me.

No one here has condoned scammers, but you have only given half a story.

[ExRat]

Hi Billyboy,

Yeh, that quote from the WSO is disgraceful - seriously.

But what you and Art keep doing is using broad strokes to paint a large, but unspecified group of people as if they are agreeing with it/encouraging it/profiting from it.

Can you or Art tell us WHO in this thread you are continually referring to as the guilty ones?

[Bev Clement]

Roger it seem that Art & Billyboy are referring to anyone working in the offline niche, which means Art is just as bad as he is in the niche, and he says he does things differently, but he doesn't.