Does long form sales copy still work?

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JaredRhodenizer

Is anyone still seeing decent conversions on a typical long form sales page or are people's ability to read and pay attention lacking so much that video is the only thing working these days?

Let me ask you this: Would you read a long sales letter on a mobile phone? As far as I've learned, that's where people get their Internet-fix from these days.

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Cam Connor

11 years ago

Originally Posted by nmwf

Let me ask you this: Would you read a long sales letter on a mobile phone? As far as I've learned, that's where people get their Internet-fix from these days.

It only took me two posts to realize you are in NO WAY a Copywriter.

Not saying that's a bad thing... you don't have to be a Copywriter, but you should be here to learn, not call the shots.

And to the OP: Does persuasion still work?

Long form copy will work for as long as persuasion does, I expect.

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nmwf

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

It only took me two posts to realize you are in NO WAY a Copywriter.

Not saying that's a bad thing... you don't have to be a Copywriter, but you should be here to learn, not call the shots.

I don't have to call the shots. The mobile market already did. That's the kind of stuff I discover by sticking my head out of the IM box. Might want to try that.

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sethczerepak 11 years ago

Originally Posted by nmwf

Oh look. Another one!

Now now, don't get too excited. I'm good for a round or two, but I'm a proverbs 26:4 kinda guy.

Originally Posted by nmwf

I don't have to call the shots. The mobile market already did. That's the kind of stuff I discover by sticking my head out of the IM box. Might want to try that.

You seem lost. Here, let me help you out on this one...

Mobile Marketing

PS: The smart copywriters on this forum write for all kinds of niches, so we spend plenty of time outside the IM box. Thanks for the tip though. Short but pointless.
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angiecolee 11 years ago

Originally Posted by nmwf

I don't have to call the shots. The mobile market already did. That's the kind of stuff I discover by sticking my head out of the IM box. Might want to try that.

I don't work in mobile or traditional IM at all and I'm pretty sure I said the same thing about you not being your market.
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ChrisNosal Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by nmwf

Let me ask you this: Would you read a long sales letter on a mobile phone? As far as I've learned, that's where people get their Internet-fix from these days.

If it provided valuable content, and offered exactly what you were looking for…

Would you read a long blog post on a cell phone? Would you read a long email on his cell phone?

You think it's about the size of the screen, but cell phones today especially have decent size screens, and the text is, for the most part, just as readable as it is on a computer monitor.

People will read whatever gives them valuable information, and helps them, and provides whatever they were looking for in the first place.

Safe struggle with their weight their whole life, do you think they're not going to read your content because it's on a cell phone, even if they know or believe that scrolling down could be the solution to a lifelong problem?

It does sound logical to think because the screen is smaller people aren't going to want to read every thing, but it's just like watching a video on a cell phone - as long as it keeps you engaged, and gives you what you want, you'll keep reading.

If people didn't want to read the content, they won't be on the phone in the first place.

The problem is most marketers just put up a page full of pure height, talking about all the magical things their product is going to do for their customer, but offer very little focus on helping others, and much more focus on trying to make sales and get money for themselves.
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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Personally, I've never been able to sit through a VSL in my life, even on products that interest me.

It's just such a freaking slow way to get information. No scanning. GAH!!!

Long copy does work. But I don't think it's as effective as a well-written autoresponder series.

You simply can't beat 'relational marketing' where trust is built over the long-term. And email marketing is the most efficient way to do that.

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TypingPandas

11 years ago

I always prefer short sales pages that are efficient and present the information to the point. People nowadays don't have the time to go through long sales copies.

Still, if I would have to choose between videos and long sales copies, then I would choose the latter. It's easier to scan and go straight to the points that interest you.

Best,
Typing Pandas

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hughta

11 years ago

I think web browsing habits are changing to the point where visitors will not tolerate long copy blocks in an initial encounter with a site. But, in secondary pages, such as product details, many buyers do want to read in depth.

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by hughta

I think web browsing habits are changing to the point where visitors will not tolerate long copy blocks in an initial encounter with a site. But, in secondary pages, such as product details, many buyers do want to read in depth.

I guess the 8 figure businesses I write for should fold up shop then

Absolutely long copy works on an initial encounter if the message is matched to the market.

Thanks
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Cam Connor

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

I guess the 8 figure businesses I write for should fold up shop then

Which 8-figure businesses do you write for?

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Which 8-figure businesses do you write for?

Nunya. Bidness.

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Cam Connor

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

Nunya. Bidness.

Cool.

I write for a whole bunch of 12-figure businesses.

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JohnRussell 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Cool.

I write for a whole bunch of 12-figure businesses.

OK...Agora for one.

Is it any more credible just cause I named them?

What 12 figure businesses do you write for then?
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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

I guess the 8 figure businesses I write for should fold up shop then

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Cool.

I write for a whole bunch of 12-figure businesses.

Who has the bigger ePeen?

Find out next time on...

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Cam Connor 11 years ago

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson

Who has the bigger ePeen?

Me.

J/k.

When I brought up 8-figure businesses, it wasn't because I have a Napoleon complex. Rather it was to convey that very successful businesses rely on long form sales letters.

Thanks
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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

Me.

J/k.

When I brought up 8-figure businesses, it wasn't because I have a Napoleon complex. Rather it was to convey that very successful businesses rely on long form sales letters.

No problem, I was just poking fun. At least you had a sense of humor about it, as opposed to someone else

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gjabiz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

if the message is matched to the market.

Thanks John Russell, you just gave away the store.

Saw a working flat screen on front porch with sign,- For Sale$50.00 I BOUGHT to use as a big monitor.

Once read a 500 page report on an Investment Opportunity...I bought based on what I found on page 487.

When the message matches my BUYING MODE, length is irrelevant.

gjabiz

PS. So, match your message to your market.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by gjabiz

Thanks John Russell, you just gave away the store.

Saw a working flat screen on front porch with sign,- For Sale$50.00 I BOUGHT to use as a big monitor.

Once read a 500 page report on an Investment Opportunity...I bought based on what I found on page 487.

When the message matches my BUYING MODE, length is irrelevant.

gjabiz

PS. So, match your message to your market.

I know that is sung like an anthem...but people do have limited attention spans. Mine gives way after an hour.

I'd rather read a 20-email series about my favourite subject, than the equivalent in a long-form sales letter. It makes the info more digestible.

I prefer TV shows over movies for a similar reason.

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I know that is sung like an anthem...but people do have limited attention spans. Mine gives way after an hour.

I'd rather read a 20-email series about my favourite subject, than the equivalent in a long-form sales letter. It makes the info more digestible.

I prefer TV shows over movies for a similar reason.

Let's say you lost your job. You're the only breadwinner for the family. It's been weeks and your savings are exhausted. And you're nowhere near landing a job.

You're desperate - you don't want to have to go to welfare to feed your kids.

You've searched the net high and low for some kind of quick cash opportunity. They all look like scams. You're dead tired and about to sign off...then you come across a page that promises quick cash.

This page is different...it's not hypey or scammy. And it seems as though it's been written to you directly.

You feel faint excitement and hope beginning to grow...

Now, tell me - would you rather the information in that page spread out over 20 emails...or would you want it all now?

When your kids are about to go hungry, does your attention span give out after an hour?

If you can't read long copy then you haven't come across anything compelling enough for you personally...

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gjabiz

11 years ago

I'd write the copy with this in mind. Which is why another oft sung anthem is test. Test, TEST.

Among the fundamentals we all should use is know your market, eh?

gjabiz

PS. As an agency guy, I'm sure you had a lot of exposure to researching your market BEFORE YOU PUT PEN TO PAPER, RIGHT? And you probably learned to write, NOT for what you would do or prefer, but what the prospect prefers.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I know that is sung like an anthem...but people do have limited attention spans. Mine gives way after an hour.

I'd rather read a 20-email series about my favourite subject, than the equivalent in a long-form sales letter. It makes the info more digestible.

I prefer TV shows over movies for a similar reason.

Thanks

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angiecolee

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I know that is sung like an anthem...but people do have limited attention spans. Mine gives way after an hour.

I'd rather read a 20-email series about my favourite subject, than the equivalent in a long-form sales letter. It makes the info more digestible.

I prefer TV shows over movies for a similar reason.

Classic example of assuming you are the market.

You are PART of the market. You are not REPRESENTATIVE of the market.

Your opinions only count for part of the equation, and it's funny how the rest of the market will change your opinions once you have hard data.

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hughta

11 years ago

I guess it depends on how long is considered "long." I am currently involved in a copywriting project that involves rewriting the website of a Fortune 50 company. Their agency usability testers have determined that people want fairly succinct (approx 100 words, max) copy blocks up front on gateway pages.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Yes, gjabiz. I'm well aware of basic advertising principles, thanks very much.

If you read my original post, I didn't say long copy was dead. Merely, in MOST markets, long-term relational marketing (ie email) is more effective.

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gjabiz

11 years ago

I responded to your post, in fact, I quoted it.

This is the copywriting forum (you're welcome for that too!), and we don't take off our copywriter's hat to try to guess what people mean.

In an effort to educate those newer people, those that don't have the 7 years of agency experience under their belt, we like to offer up the same old same old info, to drive home a point.

Yes, your preferences for short copy are shared by many, however, I cringe when I read a copywriter express his personal preference as if it has relevance to the thread topic, it doesn't.

But you KNOW that.

Why so defensive with such a knee jerk reaction?

gjabiz

PS I stand by the assertion that a copywriter's PERSONAL preference doesn't enter into the conversation as to what a given market will or will not read, which, as a refresher course for you John, is why we sing our anthems so loud and so often. And, YOU introduced the email thing into the discussion, because that is what you do. I, actually, did read your original post, thank you very much.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Yes, gjabiz. I'm well aware of basic advertising principles, thanks very much.

If you read my original post, I didn't say long copy was dead. Merely, in MOST markets, long-term relational marketing (ie email) is more effective.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Angie, take off the copywriter hat for a split second.

I wasn't assuming anything. I was generalizing.

In MY experience, with my own projects( and with my clients), punchy emails have out-performed long copy.

Really though, most people killing it online use email marketing as the foundation of their sales funnel. There's nothing really to dispute there.

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angiecolee

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Angie, take off the copywriter hat for a split second.

I wasn't assuming anything. I was generalizing.

In MY experience, with my own projects( and with my clients), punchy emails have out-performed long copy.

Really though, most people killing it online use email marketing as the foundation of their sales funnel. There's nothing really to dispute there.

Taking copywriter hat off, putting marketer hat on.

That's still over-generalizing. There's multiple ways to sell, there are multiple things TO sell, and there are millions of people to sell those things to as well.

There are concrete examples to back any point of view you represent, whether it's direct mail, long form, VSL, or email. Doesn't make any one more powerful than the other - just depends on the market. Again.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

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- Memetics 11 years ago
  
  It all depends on what you're selling and to whom you're selling. Each has its own pro's and cons.
  
  If for example I was in the market for a new vacuum cleaner; then no, I wouldn't wade through 2000 words of copy extolling its virtues, I would want half a dozen bullet points followed by a summary.
  
  However....if I was looking to invest my life savings in a retirement home for myself and Mrs Memetics then yes I would want as much persuasion as possible with all my concerns and doubts assuaged and totally convinced that I was onto a winner.
  
  Don't project what you think is best onto your prospect, that's a sure road to disaster. Create your copy around your demographic, if it requires short copy then great. If long copy, then even better "all the better to persuade you dear reader".
  
  Long copy is seduction with words, it beguiles and transfixes the reader if done correctly. If your long copy isn't converting then you either have the wrong demographic for it or your writing isn't up to scratch.
  
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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

But back to my point, there's a reason why smart people send their traffic to an opt-in page, as opposed to a sales page.

Over the long-term, you'll have greater opportunity to sell via email. Whereas the sales page could end up being a black hole.

That's internet marketing 101.

So to rehash, in most cases, I'd bet a nickel a good email series will outperform long copy. But naturally, anybody should run a test and find out for themselves.

You should do both of course. But that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is whether long form sales letters "still work."

Saying that an email series will outperform a long sales letter is like saying your left foot can run faster than your right one. It's just an excuse to make yourself look more experienced than you are by creating an argument where there is none.

The only thing more annoying than this dead horse sales letter length discussion coming up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (<--was that too long?)...is the swarm of obviously inexperienced "marketers" who lump a bunch of confusion on top of a topic which the experts settled a long time ago.

Of course long sales letters still work.

If someone is even remotely interested in the offer, they'll read a long letter. If they aren't, they won't even read 10 words, but who cares anyway. People who assume that the internet has changed that, or that it will change it sometime in the future, don't understand human nature.

There...not that the dead horse needed another kick, but as long as people who are ignorant about this topic keep "advising" on it, the rest of us will keep having to reslay the slain.

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Cool.

I write for a whole bunch of 12-figure businesses.

Long form sales letters to defense contractors? lol

Originally Posted by nmwf

Let me ask you this: Would you read a long sales letter on a mobile phone? As far as I've learned, that's where people get their Internet-fix from these days.

Oh right, because asking yourself what YOU would do is a smart way to analyze your market.

-He said sarcastically-

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Personally, I've never been able to sit through a VSL in my life, even on products that interest me.

It's just such a freaking slow way to get information. No scanning. GAH!!!

Right, because even though the OP said "sales copy" we was really talking about VSLs.

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JohnRussell 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Long form sales letters to defense contractors? lol

Pretty sure that was his clever way of saying he didn't believe me.
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nmwf 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Oh right, because asking yourself what YOU would do is a smart way to analyze your market..

Oh look. Another one!
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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Right, because even though the OP said "sales copy" we was really talking about VSLs.

You're a dense one, aren't you?

The OP specifically mentioned video in his post. Read it again.

As for the rest of your rant, I'm entitled to share what's worked best for ME.

I've written sales pages that have done very well. But I find I don't need to bother sending my lists to them. I can sell just as well (actually better) right from the email.

And yea, I've run A/B split tests that verify that.

Thanks
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nmwf

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

You're a dense one, aren't you?

Of course he is. He and his ilk can't even figure out what a mobile market is and how it changes *everything* that *everyone* does.

Oh well. That's just more "customahs" for the "restavahs".

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by nmwf

Of course he is. He and his ilk can't even figure out what a mobile market is and how it changes *everything* that *everyone* does.

Oh well. That's just more "customahs" for the "restavahs".

So what...people don't read long form letters on laptops anymore? Ipads? Direct mail dead?

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ChrisNosal

Do 500 page books still work?

Stupid question, right?

Do 2 hour movies still work?

Do 50 page eBooks still work?

It doesn't matter how long something is - the more you add, the more excited you can get your reader.

Here's what determines the success:

Whether your content keeps their INTEREST.

If you lose their interest, the world's shortest sales letter can drive someone away, while the longest can have your customer glued to their seat, because the second person knows how to be INTERESTING and ENTERTAINING.

Actually, that's a damn good point. I have an entire chapter on that in my book.

Selling isn't like sex. It's about about strategy, not length.

Originally Posted by nmwf

Of course he is. He and his ilk can't even figure out what a mobile market is and how it changes *everything* that *everyone* does.

Oh well. That's just more "customahs" for the "restavahs".

I must not.

I was under the impression that you were talking about marketing mobile homes, or maybe, those mobiles that go over a baby's crib, or, perhaps, mo-bull*#$% spewed forth by self-proclaimed "experts" who'll be back at the McDonald's drive through window in a few short months.

Or, maybe you're talking about mobile phones? No. Can't be that. Pure science fiction. Everyone knows that this 22lb rotary dial monster on my kitchen counter is the hottest thing since the telegram.

Keep pinchin' those pennies.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

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11 years ago

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11 years ago

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11 years ago

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that stuff is still being sold very successfully with long form sales letters every day.

These companies market with daily emails as well...they build relationships with email. But they drive the sale with a sales letter. Even direct mail too - but you probably think that's dead.

More dubious reading comprehension...

I never said long copy can't sell, but rather it's falling out of favor.

I can tell some guys here are paranoid about losing their bread and butter...

Relax. If you're any good, there'll still be plenty of copy to write even when long sales pages go the way of the Dodo.

You also ignored Angie's point...unless you're selling French Fries, 17 year olds are probably not your market.

Maybe you're planning for 20 years from know when today's 17 year olds have money. Good for you for having the foresight. Meanwhile, we'll keep making money now with long form sales letters.

Kids use their parent's credit cards, bud.

I write a lot in the fitness market. Teens are probably my most lucrative demographic. It's like stealing candy from a baby.

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

More dubious reading comprehension...

I never said long copy can't sell, but rather it's falling out of favor.

I can tell some guys here are paranoid about losing their bread and butter...

Relax. If you're any good, there'll still be plenty of copy to write even when long sales pages go the way of the Dodo.

I'm relaxed...I'm not worried in the least.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Kids use their parent's credit cards, bud.

I write a lot in the fitness market. Teens are probably my most lucrative demographic. It's like stealing candy from a baby.

So you hustle kids with their parents credit cards with kick-ass emails. Nice racket. Bud.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

I'm relaxed...I'm not worried in the least.

So you hustle kids with their parents credit cards with kick-ass emails. Nice racket. Bud.

I'm a salesman. If I had any morals, I'd hide away in an ivory tower writing poetry.

But I don't just take advantage of the young. One of my most lucrative promotions was...power wheelchairs.

Originally Posted by JohnRussell

BTW....if you're a master email marketer marketing to 17 year olds who use their parents credit cards...doesn't it worry you that 17 year olds don't use email nearly as much as they used to?

Maybe you should start hustling on SnapChat or Instagram? Gotta follow the trend, right?

Every 17 yr old has an email. Very few of those 17 yr old know where to put the return address on an envelope.

Electronic mail isn't going anywhere in our lifetimes.

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Cam Connor

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I'm a salesman. If I had any morals, I'd hide away in an ivory tower writing poetry.

But I don't just take advantage of the young. One of my most lucrative promotions was...power wheelchairs.

And if you had any sense, you wouldn't publicly state that you don't have any morals.

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John Lloyd 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

And if you had any sense, you wouldn't publicly state that you don't have any morals.

I was being dramatic..to point out the irony.

This is a profession built on mind-tricks and manipulating people to your own ends.

It's not a job for a monk.

But Cam, if you had any sense, you wouldn't have started a thread all but admitting you don't like writing copy.

What's a prospective client to make of that?!
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- marciayudkin 11 years ago
  
  This is a profession built on mind-tricks and manipulating people to your own ends.
  
  It's possible to make a very good living in this business without taking that approach.
  
  Marcia Yudkin
  
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- Cam Connor 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by John Lloyd
  
  What's a prospective client to make of that?!
  
  I mentioned one aspect of Copywriting which I found irritating to me. That's not the same as not liking Copywriting.
  
  And, IN FACT, I even stated something in that thread along the lines of "don't get me wrong, I love Copywriting".
  
  It was just a frustration which I had and I was wondering if other people felt that way.
  
  Also, the best Copywriters don't have the mindset you have. It's counter-productive.
  
  Our job's to paint our products and services in the best light possible, that's all.
  
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  StingGB 11 years ago
  
  I think a certain someone is going to live to regret the stance they've taken throughout this thread.
  
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Nordstrom 11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Pure flattery. As I said, I wear the bigot label like a badge of honor.

It sets me apart from the legions of PC droids like you.

... And back to stormfront.org you go!
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- John Lloyd 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Nordstrom
  
  ... And back to stormfront.org you go!
  
  I just checked that website out...what a vile conglomeration of hicks!
  
  But I trust my bigotry towards them doesn't offend you?
  
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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Well, Seth...after your last blunder I thought you might want to dust off your rusty reading skills.

But since I'm a nice guy...

According to Time Magazine, 45% of 17-year olds admit they only read for fun once or twice a year.

That's the future you long copy zealots are going to have to deal with. Good luck.

I really don't want to jump into the middle of this epic debate and all (and I'm going to gloss over the fact that you used 17-year-olds as your target market) but...why are you using a statistic that doesn't actually relate to your argument?

Recreational reading has nothing to do with reading a sales letter – because no one reads sales letters "for fun." We read sales letters because we're interested in a product we think might benefit us, not because they're great to curl up with by the fire on a Friday night.

I don't know a person of any age that reads sales letters for fun, so if you can point me in the nearest direction to someone who does...well then, kudos to you.

At least if we're going to argue, let's use "facts" that make sense, yeah?

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson

I really don't want to jump into the middle of this epic debate and all (and I'm going to gloss over the fact that you used 17-year-olds as your target market) but...why are you using a statistic that doesn't actually relate to your argument?

Epic contradiction. But welcome to the mosh pit, sweet heart.

Recreational reading has nothing to do with reading a sales letter – because no one reads sales letters "for fun." We read sales letters because we're interested in a product we think might benefit us, not because they're great to curl up with by the fire on a Friday night.

I don't know a person of any age that reads sales letters for fun, so if you can point me in the nearest direction to someone who does...well then, kudos to you.

At least if we're going to argue, let's use "facts" that make sense, yeah?

Let me see if I can break this down.

If people aren't reading page turners like Dan Brown(or whatever is in vogue these days)...it means they're not reading. Period.

There's a reason why newspapers, magazines, and major publishers are going bust left and right.

If people can't be bothered to read for fun, they're not going to slog through loquacious adverts. It doesn't bode well for long-form copy..

P.S. This is coming from a guy who reads sales letters for fun. I'm not bigoted (God, I love that word!) towards the medium. I'm just a realist.

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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Epic contradiction. But welcome to the mosh pit, sweet heart.

You can call me Jen – no need for the patronizing nicknames.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Let me see if I can break this down.

If people aren't reading page turners like Dan Brown(or whatever is in vogue these days)...it means they're not reading. Period.

That's like saying "If people aren't watching Game of Thrones, they're not watching TV." You are comparing reading fiction for fun to reading a sales letter for fun, which is not even remotely the same.

Last I checked, people don't go looking for sales letters to read. They tool around on the internet and accidentally stumble on them through a website link or email sub and – if the copy is compelling enough – read them because their interest is piqued.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

There's a reason why newspapers, magazines, and major publishers are going bust left and right.

This has got to be the most asinine thing you've said, yet.

Thank you for the laugh, but traditional media channels are going bust because we have things like eReaders and oh, I don't know...the internet? Maybe you've heard of that.

Who would buy a newspaper when you can click a link and get your news in two seconds, PLUS not have to pay for it?

It's the same reason Blockbuster went out of business. Digital media trumps all and Netflix had that one figured out. An online sales letter is no different.

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

If people can't be bothered to read for fun, they're not going to slog through loquacious adverts. It doesn't bode well for long-form copy..

P.S. This is coming from a guy who reads sales letters for fun. I'm not bigoted (God, I love that word!) towards the medium. I'm just a realist.

You're basing your argument for people "not reading" on one statistic. ONE. If you knew anything about statistics, you'd understand why it's downright laughable that your entire argument rests on data that is not statistically reliable.

If you had made a more credible argument such as "People aren't reading traditional media (paper-based books, newspapers, etc.) anymore" vs. the pretentious "People don't read" – then you would have had a leg to stand on.

I dare you to go tell that to any top product creator with kickass long-form, because their bank account says different.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson

You can call me Jen – no need for the patronizing nicknames.

I didn't mean to be patronizing, hun. I'm sure you're a very gifted writer.

Last I checked, people don't go looking for sales letters to read.

Who'd have thunk it?

You're entirely missing my point. If people don't have the attention span to read absolutely gripping masterpiece novels...that same 5 year old attention span will fail them on sales letters.

Even long copy zealots will admit that most people only read a fraction of it. They scan the page (hence the importance of subheads).

This has got to be the most asinine thing you've said, yet.

Thank you for the laugh, but traditional media channels are going bust because we have things like eReaders and oh, I don't know...the internet? Maybe you've heard of that.

Most newspapers have digital platforms. They're still going belly up. Why?

Your average Joe or Jane would rather watch some viral vid of a dancing cat...than read an editorial on America's federal deficit.

Back to attention spans again...

People want instant gratification and entertainment. A long-form sales letter doesn't accomplish that.

I dare you to go tell that to any top product creator with kickass long-form, because their bank account says different.

Hehe...you wouldn't happen to have any statistics to back that up would ya?

Let me let you in on a little secret...

95% of internet marketers are professional bullshitters and frauds.

Very few of them are making a good living.

I've worked with some of the top ones... and it would shock you how little they make -- even with their "kick ass long forms".

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JohnRussell 11 years ago

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StingGB

11 years ago

John, your sig leads to a product you have for sale on WF. Apart from it being short-form, pretty much everything else in the copy contradicts your attitude on this thread.

Just three examples from your sales copy:

"That's why most “internet marketers” are earning peanuts. They treat their customers like morons...shouting at them through the screen."

"What if we used a bit of reason to sell (yes, people can think)."

"Instead of treating your customers like mindless drones with wallets, I speak to them like a friend."

You are either taking the piss here, or BS'ing your customers.

Calling Jen 'hun' whilst apologizing for referring to her as 'sweetheart' is a classic by anyone's standards.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Sting, I'm not looking for clients in the copywriting section...

Aside from it being the lowest traffic section of the forum, I wouldn't want to work with most of the guys who post here.

A burnt bridge I never planned to cross if you will...

P.S I've actually landed 5 clients from that WSO. One of them P.M'd me chuckling over some of the stuff I had said here. You see, when you're honest (and un-PC) you draw in other people like you. Honestly, I'm not interested in anybody else.

P.P.S. Regarding calling Jen "hun"...I was indeed taking the piss.

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StingGB

11 years ago

John,

I don't believe for one minute you sold 5 WSO's at that price with that copy.

If you'd care to PM me firm evidence to the contrary I'll post a full retraction.

Let's find out finally whether your short-form theory really does have some legs.

Best regards, Brian.

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StingGB

11 years ago

Originally Posted by StingGB

John,

I don't believe for one minute you sold 5 WSO's at that price with that copy.

If you'd care to PM me firm evidence to the contrary I'll post a full retraction.

Let's find out finally whether your short-form theory really does have some legs.

Best regards, Brian.

I'm still waiting John.

Thanks

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John Lloyd 11 years ago

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- StingGB 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by John Lloyd
  
  Keep waiting, chump.
  
  Next you'll be asking for my online banking details.
  
  I wouldn't ask for that. Like everything else you have posted here, I doubt it would have any value.
  
  Thanks
  
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

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sethczerepak 11 years ago

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

I didn't read any dupes, mal. There isn't anything for me to read.

You can make your claims. I've read your copy. The profanity betrays a crass bogan (loads of them in CM unfortunately) who'd alienate any quality client.

p.s. Your digging is a wasted pursuit. I value my privacy. I'm not foolish enough to put out my real name on the web.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson

He already admitted to using a fake persona. I imagine we can't trust the rest of what he says.

Oh, the irony.

EDIT: I almost forgot this gem from your offline thread, John.

Please refer to above statement.

Oh Jennifer that is hilarious. PM me. I want to send flowers. Hun.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

Oh Jennifer that is hilarious. PM me. I want to send flowers. Hun.

I say a lot of funny things. Unfortunately, you botched the quote so none of us can be entertained.

But enough. I'm bored trading insults with a chap I don't respect. It's pointless, don't you think?

We all got in a few good jabs. Seth took a left hook to the chin.

So let's leave it that, shall we? I won't step on any more toes. And the established hierarchy of talking mouths here can keep on blabbing. Deal?

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Andrew Gould

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

We all got in a few good jabs. Seth took a left hook to the chin.

So let's leave it that, shall we? I won't step on any more toes. And the established hierarchy of talking mouths here can keep on blabbing. Deal?

Coward.

Seth posted a beatdown, and Mal exposed you shilling for some Viagra knock-off.

You only replied after their posts were deleted.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andrew Gould

Coward.

Seth posted a beatdown, and Mal exposed you shilling for some Viagra knock-off.

You only replied after their posts were deleted.

I didn't see their posts, andy. I was having diner, sushi if you must know. The spicy tuna roll didn't agree with my palate.

But how is it my fault the moderator found their posts to be...in bad taste?

As for Seth, the poor bloke can't read. He's lashing out at me because he made a fool of himself. Understandably.

I'm not sure what Mal "exposed", but I've never written in the ED market. It's not a condition I can relate too.

Thanks
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Cool Hand Luke

11 years ago

Lol this thread is gold. John is clearly irate and his tryhard responses to everyone are making for some decent cheap entertainment until Game of Thrones comes on.

Please proceed.

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Cam Connor

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

Lol this thread is gold. John is clearly irate and his tryhard responses to everyone are making for some decent cheap entertainment until Game of Thrones comes on.

Please proceed.

Dude, I seriously hope that High Sparrow gets flayed alive... I can't stand him.

Just thought I'd add some value to this thread.

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yukon Banned 11 years ago

The smartest thing I've ever seen on a sales page was an embedded checkout where traffic never leaves the sales page through the entire sales funnel. Now that's smart marketing.
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ChrisNosal

Banned 11 years ago

Do 500 page books still work?

Stupid question, right?

Do 2 hour movies still work?

Do 50 page eBooks still work?

It doesn't matter how long something is - the more you add, the more excited you can get your reader.

Here's what determines the success:

Whether your content keeps their INTEREST.

If you lose their interest, the world's shortest sales letter can drive someone away, while the longest can have your customer glued to their seat, because the second person knows how to be INTERESTING and ENTERTAINING.

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Rustyknuckles

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JaredRhodenizer

Is anyone still seeing decent conversions on a typical long form sales page or are people's ability to read and pay attention lacking so much that video is the only thing working these days?

This may be relevant as a broad based question - but- if your building your own business to make money it is about just that, are you making money? Test, test and retest to maximize your ROI using many of the various suggestions on this thread. Your answer lies in your ROI and if that be a long sales copy you got your yes and if not you got your no.

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mark healy

11 years ago

Absolutely yes they work. They worked before and still will do into the future. Length helps but persuasive writing is the key.

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JohnRussell

11 years ago

BTW....if you're a master email marketer marketing to 17 year olds who use their parents credit cards...doesn't it worry you that 17 year olds don't use email nearly as much as they used to?

Maybe you should start hustling on SnapChat or Instagram? Gotta follow the trend, right?

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EzraWinter

11 years ago

Demographic is really important. I'm in the financial niche, targeting a 50+ consumer. Long form copy is a crucial part of the business.

Going after millenials? maybe not so much.

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ChadHaynes

11 years ago

John Lloyd is the best thing that ever happened to this forum.

Y'all don't know marketing obviously, so allow me to enlighten you plebeians:

According to TIME magazine, EVERYTHING John says is relevant and better than what YOU have to say.
In a study conducted by the Fortune 1 company John and I write for, cinnamon is BETTER than ginger.
You're all plebeians, and you OBVIOUSLY don't know ANYTHING about MARKETING at ALL. I do NOT respect you.
Chael Sonnen is the GREATEST FIGHTER of all time--he knows more about marketing than you ever will. Especially YOU.

You will see (assuming you don't utterly fail to interpret the data) from this data, that John is the greatest man alive.

Or maybe you won't, but you don't know marketing.

The 22-figure businesses I write for need me, so I'm leaving this thread.

Unless of course you dare to address me, in which case my reply will be swift and enlightening.

- The 2nd greatest copywriter on the planet.

P.S. People ALWAYS read the P.S.

I do NOT respect you.

P.S. People read the 2nd P.S. EVEN MORE.

There's a free marketing tip for you weak Fortune 50 writers.

- The 2nd greatest copywriter on the planet, again.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

^A bit late to join the bandwagon, isn't it?

But I'm sure you'll get a few virtual pats on the back from the established order here.

Seth will like your post. Mal will say, "Thata boy!". And the sun will rise tomorrow.

P.S. It turns out you DO need hair to write good copy.

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ChadHaynes

11 years ago

Snap!

Beaten by the BEST!

I'm yet to entice a single 17 year old with their dad's credit card to do business with me.

I'd say "mom" as well, but I'm a flawed human and one of my flaws (among hating brown people) is that I don't believe women make money.

EDIT:

P.S.

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

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John Lloyd

11 years ago

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Jennifer Hutson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

Your concern for the reputation of my pseudonym is endearing.

But yes, I should quit while I'm ahead. There's too much mud slinging going on. And I hate getting dirty.

Why don't we all agree to not post any more in this thread? It'd be the mature thing to do.

p.s. Jen, what's your gig anyways? "Writing/graphics"? I'd narrow it down a bit if I were you. Otherwise you'll come across as a jane of all trades and a mistress of none. Just a friendly tip.

I do both. And I'm not here to get clients, so I'm really not concerned about coming across a certain way. I get plenty of clients off this forum, without listening to the "advice" of pretentious wannabes. Thanks for that pro tip, though.

Thanks

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splitTest

11 years ago

This thread has been highly entertaining...

I won't address the "controversy" over whether long form works or not... I think the answer is somewhere in copywriting 101... But I'm really intrigued by this:

Originally Posted by John Lloyd

I value my privacy. I'm not foolish enough to put out my real name on the web.

John, would you have us believe that you registered the domain "jlloydmarketing.com" -- with the whois registrant "John Lloyd-Kirk" -- yet that's not your real name?

No bash intended -- I just find that funny... I mean, you even have "If you live near Destin, Florida, John will gladly meet you in-person" at the bottom of your "About" page...

Really, I'm not bashing (& my intent isn't to put you on the spot) -- it's just weird if John Lloyd is really not your name...

Also funny that you would choose that user name for this site on top of it all... yet call it "foolish" to put your real name on the web...

What's going on here? Did I miss your meaning?

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Does long form sales copy still work?

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