STOP posting asking for critiques and do this instead....

I don't know how much the requesters get out of it, nor the copywriters, but I can say that as a bystander, I get a LOT out of it. I pick up some great insights from reading what the real copywriters have to say, particularly the ones who explain why they are saying it.

Tina

If those awesome writers don't want to waste their time they don't have to read the post or the headline/copy so I don't see how it's a waste of their time?

You can tell it's a critique usually right from the subject title of the thread so it's easy to just not click and waste your time.

Although I haven't requested a critique, I can see the value in it. Not being a copywriter, I appreciate getting the in-put of copywriters before going out and testing it, etc. As Bruce pointed out, it could save the person a lot of headaches/frustration. Nothing wrong in asking for help.

Thanks Bruce, I just got my first good laugh of the day. Nice.

This is so true, and you can even polish the turd to a nice shine, but it's still a turd.

However, I think I know what the original poster is getting at...

...stop being lazy and asking us to tell you how to write copy...learn for yourself. There are so many free resources out there. Get a hold of them (see my sig), study them and apply them.

You can't hire someone else to do your push ups for you.

Start doing your own damn push ups...do them till you vomit if you have to. Stop trying to polish a turd...and stop trying to make us into unpaid consultants. If you want the help of a good copywriter, pay one dammit. If you want to "save money" by doing it yourself, then go all out and get good at it.

PS: If it's between the vomit and the turd, I'd take the turd. My dog has proven to me that the vomit is a LOT harder to clean up.

The crits, while the requesters can cause frustration by merely seeking free headlines -- or just disappearing altogether, are also a great way for new copywriters to test their knowledge.

I owe a huge debt to all those marketers who allowed me to crit them when I was starting out... and the writers who put me in check when I was talkin' out of my arse. Like any well run charity, the right parties get the most from it.

Just think - if all those people didn't ask for help....some people wouldn't have a place to point out how they are too important to answer the ingrates.

If all it took was testing, I'd be out of a job.

No doubt, testing is super-important... no arguments there.

But by the same token, most good copywriters have a fair idea of what will or won't work. It's why people pay us to write copy.

-Daniel

Why is that "funny"? Don't you appreciate that there are many people here who aren't yet "the most successful marketers", Dave?

Isn't that part of what a forum like this is here for?

Some people need some help deciding what to split test, you know? (Well, obviously you don't know) ... :rolleyes:

This is interesting, I'd really like to hear more about these people you speak of...did someone put a gun to their head and say never go online, hire a copywriter or buy a product? ****, that's impressive, I think there is a lot to gain on these forums...well...carry on... don't mean to jack the hate thread.

-Ross

Hahahaha. Or too busy!

Of course you've got better things to do with your time, because the challenge I gave you would be impossible. With "enough testing", naturally, you would eventually have a letter that smokes the original.

But that's very much like saying that with enough raindrops, eventually Mt. Everest will be the size of a pebble.

It would be the work of infinite lifetimes, unless you know WHAT to test, and have some idea what to test AGAINST.

You say I'm making unfounded assumptions, but I'm not. You're the one making 100% of the unfounded assumptions in this thread.

And the big reason for it, is that you're being completely disingenuous.

You already HAVE some idea what might work, and what might not. That's how you choose things TO test.

If you decide to split test your headlines, do you choose a new headline that has some relevance to your market, or do you choose an entirely random string of letters and numbers with no meaning whatsoever?

If you decide to split test your background, do you choose a new color, or do you choose an image of child pornography?

Naturally, the answers in both cases seem obvious. And you HAVE to rule out the obviously wrong, because otherwise, there are literally infinite variables to check, only a tiny fraction of which are even remotely sensible.

But then, that's the point. So many people come in here looking for suggestions with pitches that ARE clearly and obviously wrong. And some of us like to set them on a more helpful path.

You ask me how I know what kind of headline is likely to perform best? Because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. People who already HAVE split tested to hell and back. So I can rule out all KINDS of things before I get started, that will save me (and those I help) a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of headache.

You do the same, or you'd be broke.

The reason a lot of people come in here and ask for critiques, is that they HAVEN'T done the background work. They AREN'T standing on the shoulders of giants. And as a result, they may as well be spewing out random strings of letters and numbers.

And if they come here and get a critique, or a headline suggestion, or anything even remotely helpful, then they suddenly have something to test against...at which point they almost invariably discover that their test results have improved, and they can move forward from there.

When you keep jumping in with condescending "LOLz" and "you just don't get its", you're doing a lot more harm than good.

In terms of helping people out on here, you're a one trick pony. And your trick isn't particularly helpful.

I sincerely believe you mean well. And I sincerely believe that you simply refuse to acknowledge the weight that experience and understanding of the methods of persuasion plays in helping you decide what to split test time after time.

I sincerely believe all this because I see no reason to doubt your income claims.

But if, as you seem intent on saying, you use no information at all and simply start with utterly random gibberings every time you want to sell something...and then choose other random gibberings each time to test against...then your response rate will never rise above zero with any offer, ever.

In which case, you're working with only one tool in your toolbox, and your income claims would be completely bogus.

No skin off my nose either way, but I hate to see you giving out so much bad information (or at least, dangerously incomplete information) to people here who are legitimately seeking help. Especially when my senses tell me you probably know better.

Hey well you know, then I could really annoy the crap outta ya. That's OK isn't that what events are for?

Right there... you lost half the people reading that comment. They have no idea what you mean by "multivar".

Gotta have a baseline of knowledge to have a prayer of succeeding.

It's interesting to me to read the range of responses in this thread.

I can pretty much agree with each point that has been made.

Yes, testing is very important. Probably 90% of online marketers I've met don't do it which is still an improvement over the brick and mortar folks. Probably 95-98% of them don't test their marketing at all which is a big reason why you see so much bad ads and marketing in the offline world.

Copywriting is just as important. You can split test two bad headlines against each other until the cows come home. Chances are, you'll still see little or no improvement.

If you have some copywriting chops and can write a very good headline and put it against those bad headlines, then yeah... you should be able to "predict" it will win.

Testing takes time.

Depending on the niche, type of testing, and amount of traffic you can drive... it could take you weeks or months to get testing results that are statisically confident.

This is especially true if the squeeze page or salesletter is pulling almost no reponse rate.

Fixing the holes in a salesletter can be a lot faster to do.

Even better, fixing the holes BEFORE you test can mean you will have a better baseline to bump your conversion rates from.

Anyways, that's my opinion so take it as such.

Take care,

Mike

I'd put the headline at number 2. Unless it does what I say is number one - change the appeal.

The appeal is the most important thing to test. It has the greatest possibility to have a large effect.

Dave's just trying to show you that he's up on the jargon. He's talking about "multivariate testing" - just a fancy way of saying "test all the components of a webpage/site". Multivariate testing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi Dave,

Now that you've revealed "the secret sauce" to testing everything, would you do us all a small but very helpful favor?

While I have been trained in the Taguchi Method, many I'm sure here do not know the mindset, strategy, or technology required when testing in this manner.

I'm not asking for a seminar or thesis. Just a bit of insight in HOW you personally "test everything."

Because you have to admit, testing everything does seem rather overwhelming.

How do *YOU* do it, Dave? You don't have to be specific, but specifics would be helpful.

I would be so curious because clearly you've achieved success in your testing efforts.

- Rick Duris

PS: This is a sincere request. I personally want to learn.

PPS: Personally, I was trained a few years ago by David Bullock. I've used Verster, Split Test Accelerator and Omniture. I'm told Google's free website optimizer allows for multivariable testing but have not used it. I'm also aware Mike Humphreys has a similar testing tool which he is proud of and continues to enhance.

You're coming across as one of those people who just like to "bignote" themselves by not "sharing the knowledge" but desperately trying to show that they "have the knowledge" by sprouting a bunch of jargon - all the time forgetting that at one stage they knew Sweet Fanny Adams.

Which really...is just coming from a base of insecurity and is not helping anyone.

I could start mouthing off radio terms and more than likely you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. So what? But if I started dropping specific terms I would explain what they meant - rather than trying to "baffle you with bullsh*t".

So cut the crap will you. Its getting tiresome. And childish. We're all here to learn from each other - not to thump our chests.

Dave, I'm the guy that wrote the massive thread about why I seldom do critiques. The thing is, you and I agree for the most part. I understand that testing is the only way to improve a GOOD sales letter. Where we seem to disagree is the starting point. I think you start with good copy, written by a person schooled in the art. You seem to think it doesn't matter.

But speaking of hypocrisy

Aren't these your sites?
Response Boosting Design Tricks - Make Your Website Sell by Dave Mizrachi
Make My Website Sell || Response boosting design tricks you can immediately impliment, with ease, to make your website sell more.

How can you possibly claim to increase conversions when you have no idea what works until you test?

Thank you. This was very helpful. I am going to study this.

(Occassionally, my Partners will share with me insights from their efforts via email. I call them "keepers". Your post is a "keeper.")

Allow me to ask you a few questions:

1. In your testing overall, would you say that the graphics design has more or less of an impact on conversion than the copy?

(The jury is still out for me, but I would appreciate your opinion. By your post it seems the graphics design elements are your front line of testing.)

2. The way I was trained was we should test wide variations initially. And I've been doing that strategically. It sounds like you just throw stuff against the wall and see if any of it sticks. Do you have a strategy for knowing what to test--meaning variations within a specific variable? At least initially?

3. Here's the big question: Sometimes I am a part of product launches, (as opposed to evergreen promotions. Obviously evergreen promotions can be continually optimized.)

But for one-time product launches how are you testing before the actual product launch?

In my experience, I am practically required to "hit it out of the park" without testing, copy-wise. Nobody wants several different versions of the video/script, nobody has the time for daily analysis and nobody wants to pay for 20 different versions of the overall graphics design. Nobody cares about optimally sequencing the autoresponder series.

Can you share your experience? If you can't, I'll understand.

Thanks in advance,

- Rick Duris

PS: With the folks I work with, maybe I've got a different set of circumstances, but they do not have the patience for testing. They're already thinking of the next product launch.

For instance, I've heard of folks doing "internal launches." Launching to their own lists first, is that one of the places you get your data from?

Really moronic. I shake my head.

Yeah - I'll tell that to Jerry Seinfeld (a Jew) next time I see him - "Jerry - you can't say Soup Nazi* - some people are humorless *******s and won't get it - let alone the contemporary meaning of "nazi" - "derogatory term for a person who is fanatically dedicated to, or seeks to control, some activity, practice, etc."

*
"The Soup Nazi" is the title of the 116th episode of the NBC sitcom Seinfeld, which was the 6th episode of the 7th season. It first aired in the United States on November 2, 1995.
The Soup Nazi is also the nickname of the titular character played by Larry Thomas. The term "Nazi" is used as an exaggeration of the excessively strict regimentation he constantly demands of his patrons.


On TV.com, users rated this the best episode of Seinfeld.


cheers Pal,


The Copy Nazi


"No copy for you!"