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When do I bring in the pros?

by Scott Lilly
23 replies
I've recently set up a site to sell an ebook, but I know that I'm certainly no copywriting genius. So I expect that my sales page may end up needing some serious re-work.

I have a small AdWords campaign running, and I'm thinking that 300 hits to the sales page should give me a rough idea of whether the sales page converts at all (and is a worthy base to do split testing on), or it it should be thrown out and I should hire a copywriter.

As a newbie, I'm also concerned about the cost. I've seen $5000 fees thrown around by copywriters, and my budget definitely has one less zero in it. Are there good copywriters that charge in the hundreds of dollars (I know that price doesn't exactly correlate with quality, but it's probably a fairly good indicator), or would I generally be throwing away my money with someone at that level?
#bring #copywriter #hire #pros
  • Profile picture of the author arfasaira
    A good place to start is the sticky:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...directory.html

    There are certainly more affordable copywriters on this forum - and no, its not that the cheaper ones are no good - its more often the case that the cheaper ones haven't been around as long as the pricier ones. It stands to reason, the longer a copywriter works or the more diverse their portfolio, the more they can charge.

    But, that doesn't mean cheaper copywriters can't provide quality or a good letter.

    And remember, its your job as the product owner to market your site. It makes no difference if you have someone writing your letter for $5000 or $500, if you aren't marketing, you aren't going to convert. As simple as that.
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    • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
      For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. Just ask for some samples and hire someone who has done this before - you want to look for a "hobby" copywriter or freelancer. Don't buy into any hype, make a great product and focus on the benefits when working with your writer. Cheers!
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. Just ask for some samples and hire someone who has done this before - you want to look for a "hobby" copywriter or freelancer. Don't buy into any hype, make a great product and focus on the benefits when working with your writer. Cheers!

        Hmmm... $99 for some copy, huh? And in another thread Dan Kennedy is a moron according to you. You're absolutely brilliant! Not.
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      • Profile picture of the author scrofford
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. Just ask for some samples and hire someone who has done this before - you want to look for a "hobby" copywriter or freelancer. Don't buy into any hype, make a great product and focus on the benefits when working with your writer. Cheers!
        Wow are you serious? $99 for a sales letter? I don't know where you have gotten your info, but that's crazy! You won't find a real good copywriter (well maybe on the WF with a special offer or something, but $99 would probably be an insult) worth their salt for that price. And if you do, like I said it's either a special they have going on or they really suck! You really should get your facts straight before posting here!

        I also don't really know of any "hobby" copywriters. You either are learning the craft, or you are one...Nobody will put in the kind of time it takes to get even remotely good and do it as a "hobby."
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy.
        I've written copy for an ebook that's sold well over a million dollar's worth of product.

        I think the product owners are probably pretty happy about that investment.

        -Daniel
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. !
        You really ought to be lynched for this comment. I just hope no one buys your BS.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. Just ask for some samples and hire someone who has done this before - you want to look for a "hobby" copywriter or freelancer. Don't buy into any hype, make a great product and focus on the benefits when working with your writer. Cheers!

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        Brian McLeod
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      • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
        Nah - you guys are forgetting that Chris KNOWS what he's talking about because he's "#1 Copywriter of All-Time"


        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        For an eBook page you'd be crazy to spend more than $99 for some copy. Just ask for some samples and hire someone who has done this before - you want to look for a "hobby" copywriter or freelancer. Don't buy into any hype, make a great product and focus on the benefits when working with your writer. Cheers!
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        • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
          Originally Posted by Justin Mandel View Post

          Nah - you guys are forgetting that Chris KNOWS what he's talking about because he's "#1 Copywriter of All-Time"
          Wow, do I feel sheepish now...I was totally unaware that I was in the presence of greatness. I shall now retreat into solitude to scourge myself for questioning his genius.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Originally Posted by TheUruguayan View Post

    As a newbie, I'm also concerned about the cost. I've seen $5000 fees thrown around by copywriters, and my budget definitely has one less zero in it. Are there good copywriters that charge in the hundreds of dollars (I know that price doesn't exactly correlate with quality, but it's probably a fairly good indicator), or would I generally be throwing away my money with someone at that level?
    I'd suggest taking more of a bootstrapping approach. Read this thread and pick up a few of the top recommended copywriting books.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

    It will probably cost you less than $100 (before shipping). Take a few weeks to read them and put what you learn into action writing your own salesletter.

    Save your money up... do your split testing. As your product makes sales, then save some of those sales up as well.

    If you can justify the investment, then spend the money to hire an established professional copywriter which will probably run you $3K or more.

    Keep in mind, if you are going to hire a copywriter then you better know how to drive targeted traffic to your salesletter. Otherwise, it will be significantly harder to recoup your investment.

    Best of luck,

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
      Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

      I'd suggest taking more of a bootstrapping approach. Read this thread and pick up a few of the top recommended copywriting books.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

      It will probably cost you less than $100 (before shipping). Take a few weeks to read them and put what you learn into action writing your own salesletter.

      Save your money up... do your split testing. As your product makes sales, then save some of those sales up as well.

      If you can justify the investment, then spend the money to hire an established professional copywriter which will probably run you $3K or more.

      Keep in mind, if you are going to hire a copywriter then you better know how to drive targeted traffic to your salesletter. Otherwise, it will be significantly harder to recoup your investment.

      Best of luck,

      Mike
      Great advice, if you WANT to learn the skill of copywriting, take the $99 and invest in yourself. But to be honest, it's tough to "learn" ...it's like athletic talent, you are born with it or not. Either way, good luck - it can be done!
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Lilly
      Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

      I'd suggest taking more of a bootstrapping approach. Read this thread and pick up a few of the top recommended copywriting books.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

      It will probably cost you less than $100 (before shipping). Take a few weeks to read them and put what you learn into action writing your own salesletter.
      Thanks. I've read some of those books and built the existing sales page off of Yanik Silver's 14 point audio book. I'm mostly concerned about the big gap of practical knowledge that exists between writing the first sales page and writing the 100th.
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  • Profile picture of the author zigato
    I agree with the whole learning Copywriting thing yourself if money is a seriously huge issue.

    However, I definitely do not agree with buying a $99 copy because it simply won't convert very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author jtunkelo
    I blogged about this very issue a few months back, check it out:

    When Hired Gun Copy Makes Sense… And Money
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  • Profile picture of the author JJaouli1
    Well to be honest man, if you read in the Ultimate Sales Letter, Dan Kennedy even says that hiring him is usually only worth it when you're selling in an arena that other top-level copywriters are hired to work in.

    To quote him "You might not write a perfect sales letter, but I'll bet you write one that works."

    And regardless of whether it works really well, you will be infinitely more prepared when deciding to hire a good copywriter if you already have some testing and data for he/she to work with.

    I think of hiring a marketing consultant or copywriter as hiring a personal trainer specializing in bodybuilding contest preparation. Yes, he could take you from morbidly obese to super ripped, but you'd get alot more out of the experience if you came to him with an already in-shape base for him to work from, if you get that analogy?

    So I recommend buying that list of books and studying "The Ultimate Sales Letter" especially and get some raw data and see if you even need the help yet and try and figure it out on your own first.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lilwarrior
    JJaouli1 - how can you determine whether the niche is full with professional sales copy ? It is hadr to determine without some guidelines
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    • Profile picture of the author JJaouli1
      Originally Posted by Lilwarrior View Post

      JJaouli1 - how can you determine whether the niche is full with professional sales copy ? It is hadr to determine without some guidelines
      Well I think you have to look at anywhere someone is selling extremely high priced items first off. Big information marketers have MONSTER copywriters working for them, I'm talking John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Gary Bencivenga calibre.

      But then you also have to look at what you're selling. If you're selling an e-book for $29 on real estate investing, it's not necessarily competing with a Ron Legrand bootcamp where Dan Kennedy choreographed the entire sales funnel, seeing that someone who bought the bootcamp might very well buy your product as well just for the hell of it.

      But if you're trying to compete with Ron Legrand for the same customers AT THE SAME PRICE POINT, then you might be up sh*ts creek without a top-level guy on your team.

      I think the way to really see if a top-level guy ($25,000 or more, plus royalties) level copywriter is necessary, is to checkout the guys who are selling something similar within your niche and you see they are large scale.

      If the price points are similar to what you're selling, you really need to come with hard hitting copy or hire someone otherwise you're going to be in for a long and probably unprofitable time of things.

      Some examples:

      Internet Marketing-Mike Dillard, Daegan Smith, Jonathan Budd, Frank Kern, Ryan Deiss, Matt Bacak, Eben Pagan

      Real Estate-Ron Legrand, Dave Lindahl, Dean Graziosi

      If you're trying to compete with those guys you should be considering hiring a top level guy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by JJaouli1 View Post

        Well I think you have to look at anywhere someone is selling extremely high priced items first off. Big information marketers have MONSTER copywriters working for them, I'm talking John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Gary Bencivenga calibre.

        But then you also have to look at what you're selling. If you're selling an e-book for $29 on real estate investing, it's not necessarily competing with a Ron Legrand bootcamp where Dan Kennedy choreographed the entire sales funnel, seeing that someone who bought the bootcamp might very well buy your product as well just for the hell of it.

        But if you're trying to compete with Ron Legrand for the same customers AT THE SAME PRICE POINT, then you might be up sh*ts creek without a top-level guy on your team.

        ...If the price points are similar to what you're selling, you really need to come with hard hitting copy or hire someone otherwise you're going to be in for a long and probably unprofitable time of things.

        If you're trying to compete with those guys you should be considering hiring a top level guy.
        Whut he said. Plus:

        Most important, in a high-competition niche, is to look at what you're selling. John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Gary Bencivenga calibre 'ain't writing high-dollar sales letters for crap products.

        Crap products come with built-in high refund rates. So even if you pay for a big ticket copywriter to sell the hell out of your sales letter, you'd still wind up losing $$.

        Nothing sinks a bad product faster than good copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Orator
    So it seems we have two options.

    1) Shell out a lot of money for one of those real copywriters, and not some "hobbyist".

    2) Invest some money, and try to learn what you can in a few weeks from a book.

    I see some problems with these options.

    1) Not a lot of internet marketers have the money to drop on a $1,000 copywriter. To be honest most don't even have the money to drop three figures on a copywriter.

    2) Yes, you can begin to learn the skill but not everyone has an app for writing. Also those weeks when your trying to learn how to piece together even a semi-good sales letter will leave your site with nothing to go on.

    So here is my advice.

    Spend some time looking around for a copywriter that is trying to establish themself. I admit I don't know much about the copywriting business, but it seems to me that they have to start somewhere.

    Is this the best option? No, of course not but people on a budget often have to make do with the resources they have.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Gustafson
    The best copywriter is always yourself for a multitude of reasons:

    1. You, and sometimes only you, know all the ins and outs of your product/service, the benefits your customer can gain from their purchase and exactly what message you want to send your customers to interest them in visiting and staying on your landing page.

    2. Copywriting, once learned, is an amazing weapon to have in your marketing arsenal. People such as Mike Dillard, Tim Erway, Jim Yaghi and Andrew Cass have made millions using copywriting for ezines, blogs and PPC. You can pick up a copy of The Copywriters Guild for a few hundred bucks or The Irresistable Offer by Mark Joyner for $20.

    3. Copywriters cost money and time. Even if you are lucky to find a reputable copywriter at a reasonable cost (I've met some who charge as much as $10K a month), you have to spend time informing them what you want to market, what websites are best to market their copy and hope they use the right keywords and taglines to receive a high page rank. If not, then you have to get in touch with them so they can make the proper tweaks and then wait for the page to go active again.

    Learn to copywrite so you can say what you want in your own words and get it posted asap. With an online business, you don't have to get it right, you just have to get it going. The rest will fall into place with practice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Harrisonamy
    You can definitely find good "hobby" copywriters who would do a sales page for that budget. You can try hanging out in some of the online copywriting / blogging forums, check out the people posting in the comments, adn try their links to see if any are offering copy services. It's usually people at this level that are pretty good writers but don't have a long list of clients as yet.
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