Simple Insight Into The Difference Between Copy that Sells and Copy that Doesn't

12 years ago

Good point. We're doing the selling, acting as a substitute salesman for the person who hired us.

This is the reason I need to interview the client about his product. He knows the core reasons he developed it and why people want it. That's critical info. It's the heart of what I need to convey as a copywriter,

Mary

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

It's a fundamental understanding of psychology as well. Anyone can try to sell a product, but you have to understand why people buy those products or why they would even become interested in it.

You have to turn on their emotional triggers and make them want to buy something from you.

"LEARN TO MAKE FIVE THOUSAND MONIES IN JUST 20 MINUTES!"

It's a ridiculous claim but that's what the majority of them look like. What reason would someone have to purchase this product? The majority of the time it isn't one of those things where they could just use some extra money, but they have debt that needs paid, they're broke or they're tired of barely making it by.

Honest salesman go hungry. You don't have to be a professional liar but bending the truth never hurts.

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Andrew Gould

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Honest salesman go hungry. You don't have to be a professional liar but bending the truth never hurts.

If that's your attitude to sales and copywriting, you need to find a different field to work in.

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Andrew Gould

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Andrew Gould

If that's your attitude to sales and copywriting, you need to find a different field to work in.

That's how it works...

Business is built on hopes and hype. Being 100% honest won't get you very far when you're trying to sell a product or yourself.

I love that you copied that one particular part of what I wrote. Anyone who believes all salesman and marketers are honest needs to wake up from whatever delusional dream they're having.

It's the honest salesman who quickly find themselves having to work in a different field, although I'm sure you'll disagree with that. Do you honestly think corporations and some of the world's largest companies are honest in their copy or in their line of work? Hell no.. honesty doesn't build hype, unrealistic expectations of what you can expect to get out of something builds hype and ultimately makes more sales.

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Marvin Johnston

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

That's how it works...

Business is built on hopes and hype. Being 100% honest won't get you very far when you're trying to sell a product or yourself.

I love that you copied that one particular part of what I wrote. Anyone who believes all salesman and marketers are honest needs to wake up from whatever delusional dream they're having.

Pray tell, how does one build a lasting reputation built on fraud?

Or are you just talking about one night stands?

Marvin

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Pray tell, how does one build a lasting reputation built on fraud?

Or are you just talking about one night stands?

Marvin

Ask large corporations and some of the most successful people in the world the exact same question.

Do you honestly believe they built their business on 100% honesty?

Also, there's a difference between fraud and truth-bending. It doesn't mean that what they're saying is a lie, but they're setting unrealistic expectations.

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angiecolee

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Ask large corporations and some of the most successful people in the world the exact same question.

Do you honestly believe they built their business on 100% honesty?

Also, there's a difference between fraud and truth-bending. It doesn't mean that what they're saying is a lie, but they're setting unrealistic expectations.

Dude...you're really putting your foot in your mouth on this one.

We all know there are businesses built on deception. Those guys are the reason the FTC and BBB and even Yelp exist. They typically don't stand the test of time once people catch on to the deception.

"Truth bending"? I call BS. It's a creative name for a lie, and I for one would never lie to a client. They're supposed to trust me with their money and their business - think it's a good precedent to show them how willing you are to lie to their customers and throw them into the line of fire?

You have a lot to learn.

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Pusateri

No, not all salesmen and marketers are honest. But the overwhelming majority of those that are successful long term are.

Word gets out. Satisfied customers beget more satisfied customers and repeat sales. Dishonest marketers have to spend all their energy making new customers, the hardest job in marketing.

Your idea of how to sell leads to a career of jumping from scam to scam. Ultimately, you'll end up in jail, or wearing a hair-net to work... if that's the path you choose.

Well, that's enough fatherly advice. I want to be entertained. Tell me about this hype stuff. How does that work, exactly?

How does hype work? Browse the WSO section if you want an idea.

"you'll end up in jail"... um... what? Get the word out, every car salesman should probably be in jail then. All the executives behind a lot of the major corporations should probably be in jail too (some of them actually probably should).

It's simply amazing to me that so many people in here firmly believe that honest salesman don't go hungry. People who are that delusional are usually the people being sold their entire lives.

Originally Posted by angiecolee

Dude...you're really putting your foot in your mouth on this one.

We all know there are businesses built on deception. Those guys are the reason the FTC and BBB and even Yelp exist. They typically don't stand the test of time once people catch on to the deception.

"Truth bending"? I call BS. It's a creative name for a lie, and I for one would never lie to a client. They're supposed to trust me with their money and their business - think it's a good precedent to show them how willing you are to lie to their customers and throw them into the line of fire?

You have a lot to learn.

I have a lot to learn? Good to know, will you be my teacher? Please, teach me about psychology, sales and how being honest is the true key to success.

Also, you might want to visit just about every successful business owner around the world and tell them too.

I don't care what morals you have or ethics you all have, but in the world of business, you can't always be 100% honest. Honesty isn't exciting and it won't sell nearly as much as little exaggeration will. You aren't going to be starving for clients because the majority of clients and customers are simple-minded to start with.

Business is nasty and money has no soul. Money doesn't care about you. Could people who share my views be viewed as immoral businessmen? Sure...

I feel the general clique here will defend each other no matter what's said though so I'm really just typing to type at this point.

The OP posted about what sells and what doesn't.

So since everyone's on this kick of being 100% honest as the only real way to do business, let's be completely honest then. Let's say I have a product aimed at making money. Let's be honest.

"The majority of you who buy this won't put it to use or make nearly as much money as me and making substantial amounts of money will actually be quite rare. However I'm going to sell it anyways to try to help you out, despite the above stated facts. The majority of what I'm selling can be found for free with a simple Google search but it's still a good product."

Let's bend the truth a little.

"I'll show you exactly how to make $500 a day all while sitting in your pajamas, before noon! It's so easy that a toddler can do it! This has never been talked about and has never been shared anywhere else before!"

I'll say it again... Honest Salesman Go Hungry...

Prove me wrong,

Corey

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Pusateri

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

How does hype work? Browse the WSO section if you want an idea.

"you'll end up in jail"... um... what? Get the word out, every car salesman should probably be in jail then. All the executives behind a lot of the major corporations should probably be in jail too (some of them actually probably should).

It's simply amazing to me that so many people in here firmly believe that honest salesman don't go hungry. People who are that delusional are usually the people being sold their entire lives.

If your only exposure to sales/marketing is IM hucksters and the WSO freak show, I can see how you might get that impression. Those are carnivals of dysfunction.

I know dozens of highly successful sales people. None of them use any form of hype. In fact, most of them sell some pretty mundane stuff.

My college roommate has made millions selling mud. It's used for drilling oil wells. Seriously, how the hell could he hype mud?

He just convinces his customers that he can deliver mud that meets their specifications, in the quantities required, at the time and place it's needed.

No room for hype if he wants the next contract. If anything, he better over perform, because there are plenty of other mud suppliers who will step in and take the business.

That's how it works in most niches, whether you're selling plumbing services, or leather goods, or cruises. The money is in repeat business, so you better deliver everything you promise.

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KingOfContentMarketing

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Pusateri

I know dozens of highly successful sales people. None of them use any form of hype. In fact, most of them sell some pretty mundane stuff.

My college roommate has made millions selling mud. It's used for drilling oil wells. Seriously, how the hell could he hype mud?

Good stuff. In B2B we are finding that traditional selling is changing rapidly. Prospects use to rely on salespeople for all their information. Now they research extensively online.

Good for me because I write white papers and case studies for tech and software companies. The point is that transparency and lots of information is the crux of B2B marketing and selling today. It's impossible to BS your way to making your quarterly numbers for Wall Street.

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MikeHumphreys

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Pusateri

If your only exposure to sales/marketing is IM hucksters and the WSO freak show, I can see how you might get that impression. Those are carnivals of dysfunction.

I know dozens of highly successful sales people. None of them use any form of hype. In fact, most of them sell some pretty mundane stuff.

My college roommate has made millions selling mud. It's used for drilling oil wells. Seriously, how the hell could he hype mud?

He just convinces his customers that he can deliver mud that meets their specifications, in the quantities required, at the time and place it's needed.

No room for hype if he wants the next contract. If anything, he better over perform, because there are plenty of other mud suppliers who will step in and take the business.

That's how it works in most niches, whether you're selling plumbing services, or leather goods, or cruises. The money is in repeat business, so you better deliver everything you promise.

I agree. There's a lot of no-hype businesses, especially in the brick and mortar world.

Here's a great example.

A really good friend of mine owns an industrial farm. They raise disease-free rats, mice, crickets, and other critters. Those animals go on to become food for reptiles, snakes, lizards, bearded dragons, and other exotic pets.

Suppose you owned a boa constrictor. If you wanted to feed your pet it's favorite type and favorite size of mouse (snake's version of a good steak dinner I'm told), you wouldn't just catch something running around outside... it may be diseased or rabid or something.

Nope, you'd want to keep your pet healthy so you'd want feed it disease-free food. So you'd call my friend's farm on his toll-free number or order from his website. They would overnight, by UPS or Fed-Ex, a box of liquid-ice frozen mice to your doorstep. He has clients like city zoos (they have to feed their reptiles their natural food sources) as well.

It's a no-hype business. People need to feed their animals everyday, regardless of their current economic condition. My friend's farm has clients that place their order every week and having been do so for years now. As long as they get their order on time (so their animals don't run out of food), there's almost no problem with keeping those customers for life.

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RickDuris

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Business is nasty and money has no soul. Money doesn't care about you.

Corey, I'm pretty sure I saw you at the Occupy Wall Street protests.

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Corey Geer 12 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Corey, I'm pretty sure I saw you at the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Well then, tell me how I'm wrong. Do you think money is this gentle lover who will cater to you every need?

Hell no, money most of the time controls people who come across it. Treat it badly, it doesn't stick around, it'll leave you high and dry with nothing to show.
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Mark Andrews

Banned 12 years ago

Thanks for posting up your little diatribe Corey.

Pardon me asking you the obvious but if we're all so full of sh*t in this section of the forum, why only very recently have you been asking any of us for our advice as per your other threads posted up here?

21 August 2012 What Do You Charge? (I Was Stuck At $1.00 Per 100 Words)

17 December 2012 Finding Quick Copywriting Work - Moving On

Attacking both Malcolm Lambe, Rick Duris, and Arfa Saira above also clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge. Face it Corey, you're a complete newbie and essentially you know dick all about copywriting period.

If you did know the industry, if you did know what you're talking about, if you did know who is doing what, where, you wouldn't be trying to bite the hands which can feed you with the knowledge you so desperately need.

I hold out very little hope for you after this. If it wasn't patently obvious before it most certainly is now, you ain't going nowhere in this business and I guarantee you this much, time will prove me right.

Full stop, you're a completely clueless full of crap newbie.

Mark Andrews

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

Thanks for posting up your little diatribe Corey.

Pardon me asking you the obvious but if we're all so full of sh*t in this section of the forum, why only very recently have you been asking any of us for our advice as per your other threads posted up here?

Mark Andrews

You'll also notice how the questions stopped as well once I started doing some investigative research and started finding things.

I came up with my own idea, put a spin on it and so far I don't have many worries.

You're welcome though, I'll be happy to do it again sometime.

P.S. It's not just this section, you have to do a lot of weeding to find the truth.

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arfasaira

12 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

Dude...you're really putting your foot in your mouth on this one.

We all know there are businesses built on deception. Those guys are the reason the FTC and BBB and even Yelp exist. They typically don't stand the test of time once people catch on to the deception.

"Truth bending"? I call BS. It's a creative name for a lie, and I for one would never lie to a client. They're supposed to trust me with their money and their business - think it's a good precedent to show them how willing you are to lie to their customers and throw them into the line of fire?

You have a lot to learn.

Exactly Angie, you hit the nail on the head...

But this also brings up another issue here and that's your OWN integrity as a copywriter. Like most copywriters here, I for one would NEVER want to sell a product or service I thought lacked integrity or couldn't get 100% behind.

I once pulled the plug on a potential project worth £24,000 because the client was LYING to me about his business - something myself and my business partner found out while we were doing our research. We hadn't sealed any type of deal or contract, but were in the process of doing so. As soon as we realized he was being dishonest, I wished him well and told him it was not possible for us to work together as I didn't think we were a good fit. I'm glad I did.

This is where YOU as a copywriter have to make the decision whether or not a job is worth doing - do you want money in your pocket for pushing something fake, immoral, dishonest or morally or ethically wrong, or would you rather position yourself to only work with businesses of the highest integrity and take on ethically or morally correct products or services.

Of course, that being said, it can be subjective too. I've been asked to do copy for the occult, financial, sex and a few other niches which (even though I've needed the money), I've refused.

It's about having a higher standard for yourself, holding your self to account and drawing your own boundaries for what's acceptable and what's not. And selling a product or service that genuinely can't help people solve a problem or which smells wrong or is ethically not right for me is quite frankly, something I wouldn't touch with a 10ft barge pole - no matter how desperate I got.

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Pusateri

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

That's how it works...

Business is built on hopes and hype. Being 100% honest won't get you very far when you're trying to sell a product or yourself.

I love that you copied that one particular part of what I wrote. Anyone who believes all salesman and marketers are honest needs to wake up from whatever delusional dream they're having.

It's the honest salesman who quickly find themselves having to work in a different field, although I'm sure you'll disagree with that. Do you honestly think corporations and some of the world's largest companies are honest in their copy or in their line of work? Hell no.. honesty doesn't build hype, unrealistic expectations of what you can expect to get out of something builds hype and ultimately makes more sales.

No, not all salesmen and marketers are honest. But the overwhelming majority of those that are successful long term are.

Word gets out. Satisfied customers beget more satisfied customers and repeat sales. Dishonest marketers have to spend all their energy making new customers, the hardest job in marketing.

Your idea of how to sell leads to a career of jumping from scam to scam. Ultimately, you'll end up in jail, or wearing a hair-net to work... if that's the path you choose.

Well, that's enough fatherly advice. I want to be entertained. Tell me about this hype stuff. How does that work, exactly?

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KingOfContentMarketing

12 years ago

Advertising will always present the best outcome of using the product. That's the point. But I don't think consumers are that dumb.

Yes, they like dumb TV shows and corporate rock.

What I mean is if they don't like a product or service it dies fast in the marketplace. No matter how much advertising is thrown at it. (e.g., New Coke, Microsoft Web TV, Lifesavers Soda, Apple Newton, Pepsi A.M., Harley-Davidson perfume, Bic Underwear, R.J. Reynolds smokeless cigarettes, etc.)

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Marvin Johnston

12 years ago

It looks like we have a troll here. Maybe time to stop feeding it.

Marvin

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Cosmit 12 years ago

Imagine a commercial for a cleaning product where you have to scrub a surface 20 times to clean a stain. Then, a competitor comes along and does it in only 10 scrubs. So now you have to beat your competitor by doing it in just 5 scrubs. Before you know it, the worst of the worst stains are magically disappearing by gently and effortlessly swiping it once.

We're not excited by watching a "realistic" commercial of scrubbing a stain 20 times. We are so used to everything being hyped up that when somebody DOESN'T hype it up we think it's an inferior product and something's wrong with it.
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ronorr

12 years ago

Very true great copywriting is very cool to write without it sounding like too much hype. I have read the book power copy which was very good and the names Dan Kennedy and Frank Kern come up again and again.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 12 years ago

"Copywriting - contact me for a quote" - keep writing brilliant lines like that and you won't need to hype or BS anyone.

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Mark Andrews

Banned 12 years ago

Corey, I'm going to call you out on your BS too. It's so patently obvious you haven't got a bloody clue what you're talking about you might just as well shut up already. Sorry to be so blunt but you need it.

You're such a newbie at copywriting it's not even funny, yet here you are telling some of the old highly experienced hands here they don't know what they're talking about. I mean seriously, what planet are you on mate?

Now pray, do tell us all this astonishing new schtick you're on, how precisely hype and BS work to shift more product in your opinion. Talking BS, I'm sure you'll excel at this.

Do you need a shovel to dig yourself a deeper hole before you get started?

Balls back in your court Corey, pray do continue, this should be good for a laugh if nothing else.

Mark Andrews

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Corey Geer

12 years ago

I know dozens of highly successful sales people. None of them use any form of hype. In fact, most of them sell some pretty mundane stuff.

....I'm not even going to come up with a smart-ass reply to this. The claim stated her is just ridiculous.. "none of them used any form of hype" and "highly successful sales people." Ok...

My college roommate has made millions selling mud. It's used for drilling oil wells. Seriously, how the hell could he hype mud?

A good salesman can hype up anything.

That's how it works in most niches, whether you're selling plumbing services, or leather goods, or cruises. The money is in repeat business, so you better deliver everything you promise.

You don't have to deliver everything you promise, you have to make sheep feel like they're getting everything promised.

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

It looks like we have a troll here. Maybe time to stop feeding it.

Marvin

Thank you for this intelligent and well-rounded argument. I often times think the Warrior Forum is full of trolls deliberately trying to spread misinformation and sit on here all day pretending that they are who they tell people they are on the internet.

I've seen a few honest people, a few knowledgeable people and for the most part, it's just clique members thanking each other and agreeing with each other no matter what's been said.

Originally Posted by Cosmit

Imagine a commercial for a cleaning product where you have to scrub a surface 20 times to clean a stain. Then, a competitor comes along and does it in only 10 scrubs. So now you have to beat your competitor by doing it in just 5 scrubs. Before you know it, the worst of the worst stains are magically disappearing by gently and effortlessly swiping it once.

We're not excited by watching a "realistic" commercial of scrubbing a stain 20 times. We are so used to everything being hyped up that when somebody DOESN'T hype it up we think it's an inferior product and something's wrong with it.

THANK YOU

Originally Posted by ronorr

Very true great copywriting is very cool to write without it sounding like too much hype. I have read the book power copy which was very good and the names Dan Kennedy and Frank Kern come up again and again.

Frank Kern leads the blind sheep. He's one of the very few people I will follow because he's real. He speaks the truth and he said it best: People suck

Have you seen some of his disclaimers? They state despite the fact that the majority of the people who pay for his products won't use them, are lazy and probably will just buy the next thing he launches that they could make money anyways.

According to the people here though, honesty is the best policy and way to do business without hyping or shining up their products. So Frank Kern should start selling his products with 100% complete honesty behind them. "Buy this and make me richer" doesn't sound quite as good as learning to lead a mass full of people into your grasp to buy your expensive products.

[quote=arfasaira;7568505]I once pulled the plug on a potential project worth £24,000 because the client was LYING to me about his business - something myself and my business partner found out while we were doing our research.[QUOTE]

This is one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever seen stated here. So you're telling me, you're so well off that you can pull the plug on a deal that substantial? If I was offered the executive position to a tobacco company, I would take it in a heartbeat.

If that's a true story, then I honestly have no idea what to say to that...

This is where YOU as a copywriter have to make the decision whether or not a job is worth doing - do you want money in your pocket for pushing something fake, immoral, dishonest or morally or ethically wrong, or would you rather position yourself to only work with businesses of the highest integrity and take on ethically or morally correct products or services.

Most products on the internet are dishonest and ethically wrong. Believe it or not, outside the Copywriting forum, there are savages out there who will make money any way they can. You keep speaking of "morals" but you obviously haven't dealt with too many business people nor do you know how the majority of successful businesses work.

I don't know if people here are trying to impress each other or if you all sincerely believe what you're saying but there is a lot of moral wrong doings behind successful business. This doesn't mean they're lying, but they're certainly not spelling it out 100% like it really is.

Of course, that being said, it can be subjective too. I've been asked to do copy for the occult, financial, sex and a few other niches which (even though I've needed the money), I've refused.

Again, if this is true... I have no idea what to say to you. You either didn't need the money that bad obviously or you're just trying to make things up to support your argument. That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.

It's about having a higher standard for yourself, holding your self to account and drawing your own boundaries for what's acceptable and what's not. And selling a product or service that genuinely can't help people solve a problem or which smells wrong or is ethically not right for me is quite frankly, something I wouldn't touch with a 10ft barge pole - no matter how desperate I got.

Well then.. to each their own.

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

"Copywriting - contact me for a quote" - keep writing brilliant lines like that and you won't need to hype or BS anyone.

Copy Nazi, maybe you should teach me how to write headlines and sales content.

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

Corey, I'm going to call you out on your BS too. It's so patently obvious you haven't got a bloody clue what you're talking about you might just as well shut up already. Sorry to be so blunt but you need it.

You're such a newbie at copywriting it's not even funny, yet here you are telling some of the old highly experienced hands here they don't know what they're talking about. I mean seriously, what planet are you on mate?

"old highly experienced hands"

Yes.. on the Warrior Forum, the majority of these people are highly experienced and earn five, six or even seven figures writing constant copy. If these people sincerely believe any of the non-sense posted here, then no.. they have no idea what they're talking about.

I sometimes wonder what planet I'm on as well or if the responses I see in this forum are real sometimes. You're pretty gullible if you sincerely believe all of the people who claim to make as much as they do. Just a pro tip: a lot of people apparently don't know what a WHOIS search is or how to hide the information posted with it.

Now pray, do tell us all this astonishing new schtick you're on, how precisely hype and BS work to shift more product in your opinion. Talking BS, I'm sure you'll excel at this.

Do you need a shovel to dig yourself a deeper hole before you get started?

Balls back in your court Corey, pray do continue, this should be good for a laugh if nothing else.

Mark Andrews

Really Mark?

You're one of the top dog Copywriters on this forum and you seriously don't believe in hyping up products or content either? Ok, now I feel like i'm the one being trolled and it's a mass coordinated effort.

The laugh is actually right here in the Copywriting sub-section of the forum. Yes, there are people making really good money writing content and copy for clients, but they're not hanging around here 24/7 thanking each other. You can pretend to be this all-star writer who makes a boatload of money all you want, but for the majority of people, they're still starving just as bad as I was and more than likely work 9-5 jobs.

I'm one of the few real and honest people I've seen here. A lot of people are taking what I said out of context and one person even said you could be jailed for doing what I said businessmen do... I even saw a thread where someone asked if generated Meme pictures had to have a copyright rights or something ridiculous.

If you all sincerely believe that hype has no place in business or has no impact on how much sales companies make, you're out of your minds and have no idea what you're talking about. Big business uses hype in just about every single thing they sell.. it's called instilling more confidence that a product will rock their socks off. It's subliminal psychology and messaging that impacts people the most rather than an actual product.

Why do you think the products sold here or anywhere else gets 1,000+ sales? Is it because they drive a lot of traffic? Hell no.. if that were the case, you could just buy garbage Fiverr traffic for cheap and make bank over and over again. Do you think it's because they're being completely honest and people are just sure a product will work for them? Hell no.. there's no guarantees on the internet. A lot of the time, people know subconsciously something's not going to turn out as expected but they still have hope that it will.

So how do you get these people to buy something? You hype it up.. you raise their confidence that something will work for them and you polish it up to be the next big thing.

Well, should probably go get a coffee before all the "experts" come in to tell me how wrong or stupid I am, because I clearly have no clue what I'm talking about and should probably listen to all of the people who earn five, six, seven or more figures in here despite browsing the Copywriting subsection of the forum all day.

Oh hey, can I have some thanks too? I wouldn't mind being in on the massive thanks bias that is apparently present here. I'd like to be one of those people who gets a mass of thanks no matter what I say, whether it be relevant to the discussion or not.

There's a million things I may not be very good at yet but there are a couple of things that I'm very good at.

1) Playing detective and finding answers to questions I have. I can find information on just about anyone and find out just how credible they really are. There's a very good reason I look at a lot of the claims people post here and know they're BS...

2) Psychology. What makes people tick, why do they react a certain way to an event, why do they do what they do, etc? It's all a mentality thing to make people believe you're making all this money, people are more likely to follow whatever you say but it's not going to help you bring in more clients. People who make as much money as they say they do don't post about it or talk about it and a good portion of them don't browse the Warrior Forum.

Pretending your ego is high and that you're such an expert isn't going to bring in more clients.

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bizgrower

12 years ago

In the long run, dishonesty does not work:

I do not know anyone who has had a LONG TERM CAREER as a car salesman.

I have lived in or near the same major city for all my 52.8 years, have purchased at least 10 cars, and still do not have a car dealership that I would refer someone to, or that I would go to again.

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arfasaira

12 years ago

>>>>This is one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever seen stated here. So you're telling me, you're so well off that you can pull the plug on a deal that substantial? If I was offered the executive position to a tobacco company, I would take it in a heartbeat.

If that's a true story, then I honestly have no idea what to say to that...

No Corey, I'm not 'so well off' as you put it - I have principles and one of them is I don't work with dishonest clients.

>>>Most products on the internet are dishonest and ethically wrong. Believe it or not, outside the Copywriting forum, there are savages out there who will make money any way they can. You keep speaking of "morals" but you obviously haven't dealt with too many business people nor do you know how the majority of successful businesses work.

Really? I spend around 70% of my working time with SME's - several of whom have had me on retainer for the last 2 years. So actually, I DO know how successful businesses run - and it's not from being deceptive I can tell you.

>>>>I don't know if people here are trying to impress each other or if you all sincerely believe what you're saying but there is a lot of moral wrong doings behind successful business. This doesn't mean they're lying, but they're certainly not spelling it out 100% like it really is.

Granted, but it's also down to you to do YOUR due diligence. You can't know everything about how someone works, but you can do your best.

>>>Again, if this is true... I have no idea what to say to you. You either didn't need the money that bad obviously or you're just trying to make things up to support your argument. That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.

Actually Corey, I think YOU are being ignorant of other people. It's a matter of principle and nothing to do with whether I need the money or not. You might not have the same principles, but you aren't in a position to paint everyone with the same brush or judge people by your own standards.

Many copywriters on this forum (some of them earning 6 and 7 figures) won't EVER write copy for some of the niches I've mentioned as a matter of principle. As most of the regulars on this forum know, I'm deeply religious. So for those reasons, I would never write for those niches.

Each to their own.

>>>>Copy Nazi, maybe you should teach me how to write headlines and sales content.

That's seriously disrespectful.

>>>"old highly experienced hands"

>>> Ok, now I feel like i'm the one being trolled and it's a mass coordinated effort.

No effort at all Corey - we don't need to co-ordinate anything - I think you have managed this one all on your own

>>>>The laugh is actually right here in the Copywriting sub-section of the forum. Yes, there are people making really good money writing content and copy for clients, but they're not hanging around here 24/7 thanking each other. You can pretend to be this all-star writer who makes a boatload of money all you want, but for the majority of people, they're still starving just as bad as I was and more than likely work 9-5 jobs.

Speak for yourself

>>>>I'm one of the few real and honest people I've seen here. A lot of people are taking what I said out of context and one person even said you could be jailed for doing what I said businessmen do... I even saw a thread where someone asked if generated Meme pictures had to have a copyright rights or something ridiculous.

Really?

>>>So how do you get these people to buy something? You hype it up.. you raise their confidence that something will work for them and you polish it up to be the next big thing.

Granted that's true to an extent, but you're missing the point. There's a huge difference between hype and blatant lying.

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

Copy isn't hype - IF it resonates with the reader.

And for copy to resonate...

It must speak truth; it must connect with the reader on a deep emotional level.

The money is in finding and communicating that truth.

Also...

No repuable company will work with a copywriter who is too lazy to isolate and magnify the spectacular nature of their product or service.

Reputation means more now than ever.

Mark

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Marvin Johnston

12 years ago

And all this time, I've been thinking this is a copywriting forum.

Silly me.

Marvin

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jimbo13

12 years ago

Actually Corey is right and it is nearly everyone else who is wrong.

eg Microsoft knew Windows 95 would not do what it claimed that it would do.

Ditto Oracle Corporation and their software.

Both are multi-billion dollar organisations as are Bill Gate and Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison even explains why this happens in his autobiography.

What they knew is that the software they were releasing was 90% there and by the time people/companies bought it and worked out any of the flaws, their programmers would have fixed those known flaws and patches would be made available.

It is quite common in software for this to happen.

So both Microsoft and Oracle deliberately lied. They knew they were releasing a product that was not 100% as Marketed.

They believe in the products and services they sell, warts and all. They just don't tend to point out the warts so much.

This is what happens with nearly every large company on the planet. That is why they are large. They haven't got time to wait for perfection. They create, market and release and upgrade/recall after if necessary.

Market share waits for no one.

You need to define what is lying before you attack Corey for being somewhat truthful.

Dan

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Mark Andrews

Banned 12 years ago

What? That it's okay to lie and BS Dan?

Pass.

Mark Andrews

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jimbo13

12 years ago

No Mark and admittedly I haven't read the entire thread.

What I mean is a company today was shut down in England for selling Bogus Courses on some sort of filler cosmetic procedure.

They were selling 1 day courses at £1000 a head where in 6 hours they would say that you are qualified to carry out the procedure. Think it is botox.

Well that was an out and out lie and no scruples what so ever. Quite right that someone goes to jail for fraud and a copywriter/sales rep selling this rubbish is low down the food chain in my opinion.

However is that the same as Microsoft releasing software when it is only 90/95% ready?

I don't think so and I don't believe the reps/copywriters are liars.

They are decent people, doing a decent job of providing genuine solutions to their clients.

I'll use a health related example as I know Arfa is in this field and one of those community magazine things came today.

There is an Acupuncturist Ad in it and one of the things it says Acupuncture can cure is Infertility.

Since when?

However I don't believe she is a liar seeking to deceive people. If one of the symptoms causing infertility is stress then maybe Acupuncture can relieve stress just by being in a relaxing environment irrespective if anything is done.

And a by product of reduced stress can be getting pregnant.

But that is not what the Ad says. It just lists Infertility as something Acupuncture will cure.

Thoughts Mark?

Dan

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Mark Andrews

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by jimbo13

Thoughts Mark?

None to add.

Said all I needed to say previously.

Thanks all the same.

Mark Andrews

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arfasaira

12 years ago

Dan,

I see the point in what you are saying and you are right that some companies have no scruples whatsoever - you just had a better way of putting your argument across than Corey did.

However, Corey ungraciously implied lying is ok because according to him, every business is dishonest and honest salesmen go hungry. Oh that and his total lack of respect for any fellow copywriter on this forum who chooses to call him out on this.

If you know how to dish it, you've gotta learn how to take it too.

As already mentioned on other posts, there's a huge difference between hype and dishonesty - which really is the crux of the argument. The majority of businesses are honest and transparent - many are not. That's the way of the world.

Most copywriters will choose their clients carefully and refuse to work on projects that are ethically, religiously, morally etc wrong.

When clients approach me for help, I'm transparent and honest and tell them what they need to hear and not what they want to hear. I expect the same from my clients.

Yes the health business is rife with people making a lot of inflated claims, which is why the advertising standards authority has issued some very strict guidelines and no complementary therapist is allowed to say they cure anything.

And Microsoft may have released an inferior product, but they also have the updates available to fix bugs and improve usability too. I do see your point, it's just you are far more balanced in how you talk about it. It's a shame others can't do the same :rolleyes:

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jimbo13

12 years ago

Thank you Arfa

By the way the Acupuncturist I am referring to is in no way, shape or form trying to lie.

They have set up what they refer to as Community Acupuncture making it accessible to the community for a lot less than most private practitioners by treating people in a communal way not just one person at a time and working out of the local council run community centre.

Here is their website.

Home

It was just that their print Ad (Half page in an A5 magazine) lists things they can treat without any explanation. It was just that Infertility stood out as that is a symptom of something else which may or may not be remedied by Acupuncture and I am sure they explain this fully.

Maybe you could contact them if it is your field. Tell them the benefits of targeted messages over generic lists of things.

Usual Ad type. Company name and logo. Couple of lines on who they are. Price £10 - £20. List of things eg Infertility, Arthritis, Anxiety (no expansion) Book Your Treatment Now with no reason to.

That is is in order.

Dan

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Jeremey 12 years ago

Man, I don't get all the "black and white" generalizations being thrown around here. There's honest salesmen, dishonest salesmen, ethical business owners and unethical business owners. There's copywriters who will say anything to get a job, and there's copywriters who will turn down jobs if they go against their moral code (including the knowledge that a product or service is complete bullshit).

"Honest Salesmen Go Hungry - Prove Me Wrong..."

Well, I was an honest salesman and I won awards for my success. I made a ton of money and my customers loved me because they knew I could be trusted. I also got a good deal of business from dishonest salesmen...I had colleagues and competitors who were wildly successful because they were honest and trustworthy. I had colleagues and competitors who complained about their business all the time and couldn't hold down a job because people knew they were full of shit.

Did I lie? Did I bend the truth? No. Because in my business, all of my customers were daily, long term accounts. I had to talk to them on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis. If somebody screwed something up, I told them so...Because people are smart, and they know when you are full of shit. So the best thing I could do was to be honest and do my best to fix the problem.

So if that's not living breathing proof, I don't know what else is?

Mom's advice is dead on with this one: Honesty is always the best policy.
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MikeHumphreys

12 years ago

Originally Posted by jimbo13

Thank you Arfa

By the way the Acupuncturist I am referring to is in no way, shape or form trying to lie.

They have set up what they refer to as Community Acupuncture making it accessible to the community for a lot less than most private practitioners by treating people in a communal way not just one person at a time and working out of the local council run community centre.

Here is their website.

Home

It was just that their print Ad (Half page in an A5 magazine) lists things they can treat without any explanation. It was just that Infertility stood out as that is a symptom of something else which may or may not be remedied by Acupuncture and I am sure they explain this fully.

Maybe you could contact them if it is your field. Tell them the benefits of targeted messages over generic lists of things.

Usual Ad type. Company name and logo. Couple of lines on who they are. Price £10 - £20. List of things eg Infertility, Arthritis, Anxiety (no expansion) Book Your Treatment Now with no reason to.

That is is in order.

Dan

Dan,

Interesting off-topic question.

I found this in the FAQ section of their website:

It is a peculiarity of the UK that the Advertising Standards Authority restricts Traditional Acupuncturists from saying how effective acupuncture treatments can be for their patients despite the existence of considerable research and the increasing use of acupuncture throughout the NHS and by other healthcare professionals.

So it may be compliance to UK law in action VS. using non-compelling marketing. Of course, their marketing may just resemble 90% of any other businesses too.

In a previous career as a massage therapist, I studied accupressure which is the massage therapy version of accupuncture (generally speaking)... same underlying philosophies but the therapist uses their fingertips instead of the accupuncture needle to apply targeted stimulus to the body's energy meridians.

It's been over 20 years since I studied it so I can't say that I'm current on the therapeutic research on accupuncture (been a full-time copywriter for 6 1/2 years instead). My educated guess would be some cases of the infertility would be stress-related and not a biological or hereditary involvement. Simply reduce the overall level of stress and ailments like stress-induced fertility could be cured. Same concept for boosting the immune system too... research has shown that when you lower the amount of stress stored in the body (through treatments like accupuncture, massage therapy, excercise, etc.), the immune system gets stronger by as much as 50%.

Hope that helps,

Mike

P.S. I just remembered there is an accupuncture meridian in the lower leg (I don't want to say where specifically in a public forum) that can be stimulated to induce labor at any stage of pregnancy. It's a known spot that massage therapists are also trained to not work on any pregnant clients for the same reason... you wouldn't want a pregnant client going into labor (or worse early term labor which would abort the fetus) on your massage treatment table.

So maybe the infertifility treatments by the accupuncturist are working in the same or a similar area.

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CopyMonster 12 years ago

Lots of words. And it seems lots of feeling here too.

Before getting too heated, it's probably a good idea to consider what it is we're actually talking about here.

For me there's a difference between lying, bending the truth and hype.

Lying is telling a customer it will help them lose 20 pounds in 2 days when you know full well it won't no matter what. If you do this, you'll probably have the authorities up your butt faster than you can say FTC.

Bending the truth is like telling a customer the product will help them lose 20 pounds in 2 days along with a tiny obscure little disclosure saying they also need to do X, Y, Z and the rest to have any chance at all to do so.

In my mind, hype is presenting best case scenarios as if they were average experience.

Bending the truth and hype are similar. You're not lying but you're not 100% truthful.. You can get away with it if you're smart about how you do so. Although these days, it is tougher to do so and quite rightly.

Fact is many successful marketers, businesses, sales people, (gulp) even copywriters bend the truth and hype up products to get sales. It's part of the territory. Want proof? Just look at how skeptical people have become towards advertising, sales and marketing of any kind. It is also a big part of why businesses invest in legitimizing positions through white papers, "research", books, expert opinions.

Fact is you can even get away with out right lying... to a point. If you do it big enough, for long enough, there's a good chance you'll eventually get a visit from a bunch of un-smiley people in black bulletproof vests, packing heat and taking you and all your stuff away. Mr. Kern knows that all too well. Madoff anyone? From where I sit, lying isn't a good long term business strategy.

Hype sells. It does. It's a question of market and there is a certain market for hyped up products.

Non-hype sells as well. Significant chunks of any market are repelled by hype and attracted to those who present the "facts", offer evidence and tell the "truth".

I don't think it's an either or proposition, rather a choice of where you want to play.

Just 2 cents.
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bizgrower

12 years ago

@ Mike Humpherys post 37

That's why copy in regulated industries is different and requires industry experience.
(Of couse the experienced writers know this, but for those newer to the profession...)

Not to hijack the thread, but it is also an interesting phenomena that couples often
become fertile after adpoting. It could be a stress reduction thing as well because the pressure is no longer there.

Another Dan

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mrjosco

12 years ago

I want to take advice from the $3 per 100 word copy writer who thinks the only way to sell is by spreading false hope.

He did a really good job of hyping himself. Do you think anyone reading this thread would ever hire him?

Really, I don't mean this at a jab - but look at what it can teach us about sales through the written word. Everything you write matters. All of your copy has to be carefully crafted to make sure you are ALWAYS presenting the message you want to present. If you don't craft each word with the audience in mind, you might "sell" people into running far, far away.

It also shows you need to adapt. Track the results of your copywriting and adjust. If stuffing out your chest and telling the world you have the secret to success - and that secret is dishonesty - doesn't work and receives a negative response, then craft it and shift it until you are getting the response you want/need. That doesn't mean to lie - it just means to focus on the benefits that people want to hear about!

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