Mass Control Giveaway

Suthan M

18 years ago

As it has the word giveaway, i assume that it is a giveaway? :-)

I could be wrong.. :-P

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Whats the latest movie you watched? Anything good?

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Felix Makmur

18 years ago

I also receive tons of emails from the gurus, including Mike Filsaime and Ewen Chia, about this mass control video thingy. Unfortunately, I can't even view the video due to my extremely slow internet connection. Anyone knows anything about this stuff?

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KelvinLee 18 years ago

I have watched the video this morning. It is actually a video taken from Frank's home where he later shares three techniques he uses in his internet marketing business.

This is what he suggests in the video that we can do and show our prospects
- Here's what I got
- What It can do for you
- This is what you need to do

Frank uses this technique to sell some of his courses and this is what he is sharing in this video.
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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Frank's "giving" away some content via videos and on Aug 15th there will be some type of offer (trial) with mass control stuff (9 DVDS, workbook, etc) with a backend to his mass control monthly membership site.

The second video called "the rubber neck effect" explains people will pay attention more to bad news than good news (hence the horrific stories seen on news channels).

He then goes on to explain changing the subject line from good news to bad news will "double" your business.

He shows examples of mailings where the open rate "doubled" with negative headlines vs positive headlines.

PROBLEMS WITH THE EXAMPLE FRANK WON'T TELL YOU:

1 - Open rate is the *wrong* metric to use. The correct metric used should be the click-thru rate of the links in the email or even better the conversion (sales) for the email.

2 - The samples shown are from different lists and different mailing times. To properly show a comparison the same list (split test) with the same offer should have been used. The only difference would have been the actual headline (subject line).

In general, the more opens for an email blast the more sales you will get, *so long as* the email subject is not misleading.

If you put "naked pics of Paris Hilton" you may get a lot of opens but few conversions.

IS FRANK SPAMMING YOU?

Another tragic mistake is the usage of InfusionSoft. I subscribe to all newsletters with 4 different email addresses (personal, yahoo, hotmail, aol). I belong to no less than 6 newsletters which utilize infusionsoft for the mailing and without fail they all immediately went to the SPAM/BULK folder from the beginning for hotmail, yahoo and aol without any input from me.

*P.S. Did the reading of my post double with negative headlines?

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Scot Standke

18 years ago

Frank does a terrific job of pre-selling.

If nothing else, pay attention to what he is doing and model some
of your future campaign after the things he does.

Don't copy him exactly, nothing turns me off more than a blatant
copycat that can't think for themselves.

How many "Bad News" emails did you get today

Scot

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Jeremy Wilson

18 years ago

I belong to no less than 6 newsletters which utilize infusionsoft for the mailing and without fail they all immediately went to the SPAM/BULK folder from the beginning for hotmail, yahoo and aol without any input from me.

Well, I am on Frank's list thorugh my hotmail account. Never had any problems about going to the junk/spam folder. Everyone's mileage may vary...

I agree with your points of comparison by the way.

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Russell Mangel

18 years ago

Scot you nailed it...I was wondering why I was seeing multiple emails with similar titles.

But I literally got three or four with "Bad news" from different marketers. I've got to give them credit for speed of implementation but jeez...how lazy can they get?!

Use a LITTLE thought and originality please!

Russell

Originally Posted by Scot Standke

Frank does a terrific job of pre-selling.

If nothing else, pay attention to what he is doing and model some
of your future campaign after the things he does.

Don't copy him exactly, nothing turns me off more than a blatant
copycat that can't think for themselves.

How many "Bad News" emails did you get today

Scot

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gcintermed 18 years ago

Personally, I HATE being mislead. Mislead me once and I will never trust you again. Note to gurus: the next person who sends me an email with "Bad News" in the subject as a way to get me to open a sales pitch is going to lose me as a subscriber.

I am truly surprised at how many "big names" are embracing this crap. Have they forgotten rule #1? It's about the relationship. Relationships are built on trust, which are built on promises kept over time. If you fool me into opening an email, you may have succeeded in improving your short term success rate, but at the expense of your credibility in the marketplace.

I am on some lists where the marketer has delivered so much value over time that I trust them completely. All they have to do is stronly endorse or recommend something, and I go for it. That's the kind of relationship you want to build with your prospects/customers... and it doesn't come from fooling them with cheap tricks.
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- Jason Fladlien 18 years ago
  
  I think it was an excellent video, from a marketing point of view, and showed you how to make a decent point. First you tell a story, then you supplement it with actual statistics.
  
  But of course, you'd need to split test the list... half would get a positive email, half would get a negative email... but the point is valid none the less.
  
  The interesting thing is look at Frank's unsubscribe rate... it quadrupled with negative headlines compared to positive ones. Interesting! You double your business or do you speed up the rate atwhich your list shrinks by 4 times? I'm not sure one is possible with the other.
  
  However, I'm not complaining. I got a lot of good takeaways from that video, and bitching about the inconsistencies isn't going to make me any money. I'm glad I watched it.
  
  -Jason
  
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- theaffiliategeek 18 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by gcintermed
  
  I am on some lists where the marketer has delivered so much value over time that I trust them completely.
  
  Me too. And I open and read their emails because of the name of the sender. Half the time without paying much attention to the subject.
  I see their name, like and trust them, therefore I read the message.
  I know it's most likely going to be time well spent. That's the key.
  I agree that cheap tricks are a poor way and two or three is all I'll
  put up with before clicking the unsubscribe link.
  
  Pat
  
  Thanks
  
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DonDavis

18 years ago

It's just silliness. I rec'd at least 6 "bad news" type emails today.
My favorite though was from Justin (can't remember his last name). His subject line read "Screw BAD NEWS Emails".

It seems to me that Frank is the kind of guy that can take the most simple elements and complicate them into some magic Mass Control information that everybody must have.

Bottom line is that his persona is what makes it happen for him. Everybody loves the dude.
The latest videos were nicely done I'll say that.

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2bwealthy

18 years ago

ok now I know why I got so many "Bad news" emails that last 2 days from various people. All for different things too.

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Donnie

18 years ago

"It seems to me that Frank is the kind of guy that can take the most simple elements and complicate them into some magic Mass Control information that everybody must have."

Sobering thoughts, it's all in the elaborate presentation.

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Yup, just a form of entertainment. Most gurus couldn't market their way of a paperbag (meaning take them out of the IM world and put them in the "real" world).

A lot of the gurus have never left the IM world. They have a "success" then just sell "how-to" courses on that success. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

All these people competing for search engine traffic, ppc traffic, article writing, link exchange, blah blah blah ...

When I picture this the image of a bunch of people fighting to get to the next rung in the ladder pops to mind.

From Robert Ringer's book Winning Thru Intimidation:

The Leapfrog Theory:

"The quickest way to the top is not by fighting your way through the pack; the quickest way is to leapfrog over the pack. All you need is the ability and knowledge necessary to play the game on a higher level, plus the courage to stake your claim to your rightful place on the ladder."

HERE IS THE SECRET NO GURU WILL TELL YOU.

HOW TO GET ALL THE TRAFFIC YOU'LL EVER WANT WITHOUT DOING ANY SEO, PPC, LINK EXCHANGE, ARTICLE WRITING, SPAMMING, CLOAKING, SOCIAL NETWORK, LENS CREATING, DIGGING, MYSPACING, EBAYING, FACEBOOKING, BLOGGING, PINGING, RSSING, PRESS RELEASING AND-ON-AND-ON..

SCROLL DOWN, YOU'RE ALMOST THERE

You buy it.

Put up ten related offers (ex. financial, health), buy some banners and rotate the traffic through the offers. Drop the losers, keep the winners, rinse-and-repeat.

It isn't FREE, it isn't sexy, but it is STEADY.

It has worked for 10 years and will continue to work for the next 10. No chasing the latest hot fad.

No google, no msn, no seo, none of that BS. You can pay whatever price for traffic so long as the offer pays more.

Lesson over ... back to my video games

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RickyLM

18 years ago

Well you put that in a special place of it's own. Confusion is an illusion!

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sagesage

18 years ago

Frank Kern is the bearded (and in the latest video, buffant) guru with a pretty straight talking style.

The post earlier referring to the comparative open rate is perfectly correct.

With a little more detail, you would know WHAT Frank split tested.

He refers to the mailings for StomperNet, and he was the number one affiliate for that launch - that makes a massive comparative.

I think my inbox had around 40-50 different e-promos for that launch. The first I opened was obviously from Brad and Andy, the second, almost without exception was Frank Kern.

In my book, that would denote a summary example, not hiding anything misleading. He also stated he sent out just one e-mail, which shows you perception can be different from reality.

Although I commit myself to one new major release each year, Frank has got my interest. I'll wait until the 15th to see if this year I extend to two launches.

Sage

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Sage

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Houcem Rihane

18 years ago

Concerning the Subject "bad news": It can be considered as a proof of his theory (it worked at least for me) but his theory is not 100% right because what makes us tick is not the bad news in itself but the different news. Just try to send always only emails with "bad news effect" subjects and you will understand what I mean.

He is reopening his mass control membership circle at 2700$/mo and this whole is part of the process (he said it in his first video).

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AlexNavas 18 years ago

I have found the videos to be simplistic, yet valuable. It's the simple things that most people never implement for the mistaken perception of simple = non-effective.

Back to the basics.
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Bearded

18 years ago

Originally Posted by houcemtrigun

Concerning the Subject "bad news": It can be considered as a proof of his theory (it worked at least for me) but his theory is not 100% right because what makes us tick is not the bad news in itself but the different news. Just try to send always only emails with "bad news effect" subjects and you will understand what I mean.

He is reopening his mass control membership circle at 2700$/mo and this whole is part of the process (he said it in his first video).

The $2,700 a month thing is his "platinum mastermind group." All those people bought in at Mass Control in San Diego. I think there's only like 25 of them. This launch is *not* reopening that group. This launch is for "Mass Control Monthly" which is basically just frank's monthly membership site. It's $297/month, and anyone who bought Mass Control back in February was opted into it at that point, with a recurring monthly fee.

Joe

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Houcem Rihane

18 years ago

Originally Posted by Bearded

The $2,700 a month thing is his "platinum mastermind group." All those people bought in at Mass Control in San Diego. I think there's only like 25 of them. This launch is *not* reopening that group. This launch is for "Mass Control Monthly" which is basically just frank's monthly membership site. It's $297/month, and anyone who bought Mass Control back in February was opted into it at that point, with a recurring monthly fee.

Joe

From Bearded to bearded:
Thanks for the rectification. I must have missed this at the end if the first video.

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alltweed

18 years ago

Also he says its all new...Curious as to what this means. Will have to wait to see.

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Midas3 Consulting

18 years ago

I watched the video and what I noticed was that as he was showing the open rate improvement the numbers of people on the lists was visible for a short time.

As he swopped between pages in the video, ,showing the apparently improving open rates the numbers of people on the list also dropped dramatically, as as if they were simply different lists, perhaps nobody else noticed this .

I cant' remember the exact numbers but it went from tens of thousands with the poor opening rate to just a few thousands with the much higher opening rate. Now you would think if your offering a comparisom then you would use the same list no ?

We have lists with a few thousand on which are incredibly response, personal newsletter lists, we have lists with tens of thousands on which are far less responsive.

Something was out of whack, I didn't feel right.

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Jason Fladlien

18 years ago

Don't miss the forest for the trees. The fact is, that in most cases, subjects with bad news will get opened more than subjects with good news. It's human nature. Remember that, and add it as one of the MANY tools in your arsenal. Quit nitpicking the details.

-Jason

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien

Don't miss the forest for the trees. The fact is, that in most cases, subjects with bad news will get opened more than subjects with good news. It's human nature. Remember that, and add it as one of the MANY tools in your arsenal. Quit nitpicking the details.

-Jason

Yet ye forget thy most important testament ... open rate doesn't mean sheete. It is an interim metric. What counts is what happens after the open.

Relationship is important, however the genesis of all marketing campaigns starts with two questions.

(1) Who are you?
(2) What do you want?

You address those items to the target audience and all these tactics (tricks) aren't needed at all.

You give me a list, let me properly survey them and I'll go head-to-head with any of these tricks/tactics and without a doubt will win.

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DonDavis

18 years ago

Preach it brother...

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John Ritz

18 years ago

PROBLEMS WITH THE EXAMPLE FRANK WON'T TELL YOU:

1 - Open rate is the *wrong* metric to use. The correct metric used should be the click-thru rate of the links in the email or even better the conversion (sales) for the email.

Sorry, I disagree, and here's why...

When you're testing an email subject line, the only criteria that matters is the open rate. The content of the email is largely irrelevant. I say "largely", because it does matter when it comes to spam filter. That is, an email that ends up in a spam filter is pretty close to one that never gets read, no matter how compelling the subject line.

Now for testing the copy/content of the email itself and its effectiveness, now you look at CTR.

And sales conversions are largely the result of the effectiveness of the website itself they are sent to (with some "primed" influence from the email).

So to say the effectiveness of an email subject line depends on click-through rate and ultimate sales/conversions isn't entirely accurate.

Btw, open rate can be misleading. When you read your open rate stats, more than likely your actual open rate is even higher, because email providers and software stick a small invisible graphic in the email that tracks whether each is opened or not. Some email clients (like Outlook 2007, which is what I have) automatically blocks images by default unless you turn that feature off or specify you want to download images for each email.

It's easy to notice this when you get an obvious HTML email. You see the "X"-d out images placeholders.

But since Frank's emails look like plain text, I never noticed Outlook's message about blocking images for those emails until after I watched his video and went back to check his emails. Sure enough, it was there. So even though I open just about every Kern email, my opens are not included in Kern's open rate stats.

Something to keep in mind.

Cheers,

John

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by John Ritz

Sorry, I disagree, and here's why...

When you're testing an email subject line, the only criteria that matters is the open rate. The content of the email is largely irrelevant. I say "largely", because it does matter when it comes to spam filter. That is, an email that ends up in a spam filter is pretty close to one that never gets read, no matter how compelling the subject line.

Now for testing the copy/content of the email itself and its effectiveness, now you look at CTR.

And sales conversions are largely the result of the effectiveness of the website itself they are sent to (with some "primed" influence from the email).

John

John, your logic is flawed.

Email is the same as a sales letter.

Deliverability (spam filter) vs. postal delivery
Email Subject line vs. headline
Email body vs. sales lettter copy

Look, if you want to just test headlines and measure open rate ignoring everything else, go ahead. It gets you nothing.

Of course the ultimate action of the email reader matters. The goal is to get the reader to do something (click a link, buy something, watch a video, read the email, whatever).

The main point here is using "bad news" headlines is a gimmick. Will it get people not desensitized to it to open emails and take action? Probably for the first few times.

The reason people open Frank's emails is they know they are from Frank. The controversial email subject lines are a part of his persona. The emails I got from Stompernet, Ryan Deiss, and a few other guru mailings with "bad news" heaslines were poorly implemented and weren't worth my time of reading.

Anyhow, we can agree to disagree on the email metric thing. You continue to be a copywriting bum and I'll continue with my anonymous, arrogant guru bashing

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Chris Lockwood

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

John, your logic is flawed.

Email is the same as a sales letter.

Deliverability (spam filter) vs. postal delivery
Email Subject line vs. headline
Email body vs. sales lettter copy

Look, if you want to just test headlines and measure open rate ignoring everything else, go ahead. It gets you nothing.

John's post makes more sense than yours, but then he is a copywriter so he would know.

Did you even watch Frank's video? It was about subject lines and getting people to open your emails, just like John was talking about.

Their point, which you seem to miss, is that you have to get people to open your email before the contents of it have any effect. Neither of them said the subject line was the only thing that mattered as far as making sales.

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

John's post makes more sense than yours, but then he is a copywriter so he would know.

Did you even watch Frank's video? It was about subject lines and getting people to open your emails, just like John was talking about.

Their point, which you seem to miss, is that you have to get people to open your email before the contents of it have any effect. Neither of them said the subject line was the only thing that mattered as far as making sales.

I understand the point completely about getting people to open email.

My point, which you are missing is that using "bad news" is a gimmick. A cheap parlor trick. It will work a few times, maybe, before it loses it's luster and doesn't work.

Instead, if you properly survey the list and actually find out what they want and how they feel about things, and put those in your email subject line, you'll get them to respond each and every time.

WHY? Because one will develop instant rapport with a group when speaking about something they are interested in.

And unlike cheap parlor tricks, this will continue to work indefinitely due to being wired into the human psyche.

Peace and be well.

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spudzz

18 years ago

Frank's video was about email open rates so it's hard to knock him for other aspects, like content or subsequent sales. But in truth it's about as bright a tactic as those "XXX is a scam?" Adwords ads.

It's the kind of technique that works best used in moderation and with some thought but the brain dead way in which all of us were bombarded with those "Bad News" emails on the same day shows that perhaps we overestimate either the intelligence or the effort levels of most of those looking to make a quick buck off us.

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by spudzz

Frank's video was about email open rates so it's hard to knock him for other aspects, like content or subsequent sales.

Frank's video was about "doubling your sales" by using "bad news" subject lines. He said that by simply getting double the open rate you will double your sales.

That statement is just not factual.

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Jason Moffatt

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Frank's video was about "doubling your sales" by using "bad news" subject lines. He said that by simply getting double the open rate you will double your sales.

That statement is just not factual.

No, he did not say that.

You said that, and are trying to take things out of context.

It's amazing what can happen if you actually LISTEN.

I know that's a difficult thing and all, but I'm sure you could muster up the ability if you actually cared.

He blatantly said (about 4 times)...

"Assuming that if all other things stay the same".

There's a big difference!

So what you are saying in not FACTUAL.

And in fact, a LIE!

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dv8

18 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

No, he did not say that.

You said that, and are trying to take things out of context.

It's amazing what can happen if you actually LISTEN.

I know that's a difficult thing and all, but I'm sure you could muster up the ability if you actually cared.

He blatantly said (about 4 times)...

"Assuming that if all other things stay the same".

There's a big difference!

So what you are saying in not FACTUAL.

And in fact, a LIE!

Finally. I was hoping someone was going to post this.

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

No, he did not say that.

You said that, and are trying to take things out of context.

It's amazing what can happen if you actually LISTEN.

I know that's a difficult thing and all, but I'm sure you could muster up the ability if you actually cared.

He blatantly said (about 4 times)...

"Assuming that if all other things stay the same".

There's a big difference!

So what you are saying in not FACTUAL.

And in fact, a LIE!

Out of context ?!?

Pot calling the kettle black no?

That quote you provided is for the overall message Frank is stating, not stating he never said if all other stats stay the same.

Yes, there were times he stated if all things say the same (some written, some verbal). I've got the transcript of the video** at the office and will be happy to send it to you for your review if you like.

Not every time, mind you. But it is said.

Yet, the overall message is "double your sales by using bad news". This is a fact.

Regardless if you think I'm "LYING" or not, it is an academic argument.

The most important point is Frank states a technique, yet fails to provide valid proof it works. The stats he shows are for different emails and a proper test wasn't shown. That, my friend, is irrefutable.

Enough discussion on this though, the promo is over, I'll go back to my marketing, you go back to enjoying Uncle MoFo.

Peace.

** Why a transcript? It's much easier to examine video/audio in written form as you only have one sense to focus on. We routinely have good vids/auds transcribed for examination (yes, I do think the videos were good, not necessarily for their marketed content yet for the techniques used).

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J. Barry Mandel

18 years ago

Nice recovery Jason!!

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

No, he did not say that.

You said that, and are trying to take things out of context.

It's amazing what can happen if you actually LISTEN.

I know that's a difficult thing and all, but I'm sure you could muster up the ability if you actually cared.

He blatantly said (about 4 times)...

"Assuming that if all other things stay the same".

There's a big difference!

So what you are saying in not FACTUAL.

And in fact, a LIE!

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jasonl70

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Yup, just a form of entertainment. Most gurus couldn't market their way of a paperbag (meaning take them out of the IM world and put them in the "real" world).

A lot of the gurus have never left the IM world. They have a "success" then just sell "how-to" courses on that success. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is not the case with Frank.. After getting shut down by the FTC, he SPECIFICLY started from scratch outside of the IM niche.. it's part of his claim to fame..

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

From Robert Ringer's book Winning Thru Intimidation:

The Leapfrog Theory:

"The quickest way to the top is not by fighting your way through the pack; the quickest way is to leapfrog over the pack. All you need is the ability and knowledge necessary to play the game on a higher level, plus the courage to stake your claim to your rightful place on the ladder."

I love Ringers books

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vinnylingo 18 years ago

Originally Posted by DonDavis

Bottom line is that his persona is what makes it happen for him. Everybody loves the dude.
The latest videos were nicely done I'll say that.

I'm rocking the Aristotle quotes today, but:

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Character may almost be called the most effective means of persuasion.

Whether that is applied by having character or being a character, this practice increases marketing effectiveness.
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Chris Lockwood

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

IS FRANK SPAMMING YOU?

Another tragic mistake is the usage of InfusionSoft. I subscribe to all newsletters with 4 different email addresses (personal, yahoo, hotmail, aol). I belong to no less than 6 newsletters which utilize infusionsoft for the mailing and without fail they all immediately went to the SPAM/BULK folder from the beginning for hotmail, yahoo and aol without any input from me.

I hope you're not calling Frank a spammer because his emails ended up in your bulk folder. Those email services are notorious for doing that- they have no way of knowing if you opted in. It happens with aweber, getresponse, and any other autoresponder, because it's not the responder's fault, it's the email service improperly filtering the mail.

Frank seems to sell a lot with his emails, so I'm sure plenty of them get delivered.

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Mark Brock

18 years ago

If ANYONE ordered this PLEASE let me know what you thought of it!!!

I was about to order it - I inputed my address and card details and when I went to submit my bank had apparently put a block on my card.

I called them up to get it taken off and when that had been done and I finally managed to get back to the Mass Control Giveaway site it had SOLD OUT!

--(and this was before the product even officially went live at 12noon PACIFIC)--

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marcanthony

18 years ago

Here's the bottom line... we should all just occasionally give credit where it's due. Frank Kern is a fellow internet marketer. And, I'm assuming that most of us don't question his credibility.

Just tip your hat to him and any other IM's that deserve it.

Unfortunately this may never happen but, we should all just be in support of each other.

Thanks
1 reply

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by marcanthony

Here's the bottom line... we should all just occasionally give credit where it's due. Frank Kern is a fellow internet marketer. And, I'm assuming that most of us don't question his credibility.

Just tip your hat to him and any other IM's that deserve it.

Unfortunately this may never happen but, we should all just be in support of each other.

WTF? This isn't a religion and Frank's not the Pope.

And it's not a popularity contest either.

Sure, he sells a lot of stuff himself, helps other people sell lots of stuff and has some cool videos. Kudos to Mr. Kern. I mean that.

Doesn't mean we should roll over and play dead on command.

You kiss Frank's ring ... me, I'll judge every situation on it's own merit.

I believe mass control giveaway will be a good product.

For this situation about the "bad news" headlines doubling your business ... simply not true.

A couple of philosophical points to ponder (and before all the Kernettes go on the attack, these points are not directed or referenced at Frank in any way)

1 - "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer states people attracted to mass movements are not trying to find their identity, instead they are trying to escape one they cannot bear.

2 - If you catch someone lying about something trivial and inconsequential, what other matters of importance are they potentially lying about?

Peace.

Thanks
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bryce

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

WTF? This isn't a religion and Frank's not the Pope.

And it's not a popularity contest either.

Sure, he sells a lot of stuff himself, helps other people sell lots of stuff and has some cool videos. Kudos to Mr. Kern. I mean that.

Doesn't mean we should roll over and play dead on command.

You kiss Frank's ring ... me, I'll judge every situation on it's own merit.

I believe mass control giveaway will be a good product.

For this situation about the "bad news" headlines doubling your business ... simply not true.

A couple of philosophical points to ponder (and before all the Kernettes go on the attack, these points are not directed or referenced at Frank in any way)

1 - "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer states people attracted to mass movements are not trying to find their identity, instead they are trying to escape one they cannot bear.

2 - If you catch someone lying about something trivial and inconsequential, what other matters of importance are they potentially lying about?

Peace.

TOTALLY agree!

Thanks
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cassidywilliams 18 years ago

I agree with the discussion.

Frank Kern is a cool guy and makes cool videos and stuff, but he has a talent for something everybody should look out for - he can make trivial small stuff sound like all-powerful gems.

As he has made a name for himself its easy to fall for the craze and take every word as pure gold. I concur that everybody should assess each statement and situation with a clear head.
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veotis

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Instead, if you properly survey the list and actually find out what they want and how they feel about things, and put those in your email subject line, you'll get them to respond each and every time.

WHY? Because one will develop instant rapport with a group when speaking about something they are interested in.

And unlike cheap parlor tricks, this will continue to work indefinitely due to being wired into the human psyche.

Peace and be well.

I'm pretty sure Frank has no problem getting most of his subscriber's to open his e-mails, no matter what is in the subject line because he HAS built up that rapport with his list. I haven't bought any product of his, but I do enjoy his free content. And, as suggested by some well respected warriors, I try to learn from his methods instead of nit picking or bashing him. It is no secret that Frank is on top of his game right now, and why not try to learn from the best....:-)

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

For this situation about the "bad news" headlines doubling your business ... simply not true.

No offense, but how do you know this? Have you run any tests to prove this? Just wondering as why one would believe you over Frank Kern? No harm meant, just curious...

Thanks
1 reply

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by veotis

I'm pretty sure Frank has no problem getting most of his subscriber's to open his e-mails, no matter what is in the subject line because he HAS built up that rapport with his list. I haven't bought any product of his, but I do enjoy his free content. And, as suggested by some well respected warriors, I try to learn from his methods instead of nit picking or bashing him. It is no secret that Frank is on top of his game right now, and why not try to learn from the best....:-)

Learning from people is good. Be careful what you take as fact vs. fiction.

If people think this thread is guru bashing, then so be it.

No offense, but how do you know this? Have you run any tests to prove this? Just wondering as why one would believe you over Frank Kern? No harm meant, just curious...

Fair question. Let's address this on three different levels.

(1) First hand experience: Yes, I've tested this tactic. Being a media buyer gives my company the fortunate position to purchase a lot of media.

(2) Scientific Method Burden of Proof: when a hypothesis is presented the burden of proof is on the presenter. Frank equated using bad news headlines directly to doubling your sales. Then he went on to provide "proof" by showing different emails and open rates. As explained prior, this "proof" failed to substantiate his hypothesis.

(3) Believability: This is for each individual. Whenever I present a claim, I attempt to provide sufficient evidence so others can conclude the same. If one wants to accept statements based upon the source of the information only, that is ok.

In case you didn't notice, "mass control" was used in his "proof" of the "bad news" headlines doubling your sales.

The video Frank presented basically said:

If you have a 1% open rate and use a bad news headline to get a 2% open rate, you've doubled your business.

Then he presented (anecdotal) proof by showing open rates on different email blasts.

Email A -- good headline
Email B -- bad headline (double the open rate)

Then he stated (paraphrased) "you double your open rate with bad news headlines." *ok, seems to be believable and he seems to have proven this point (even though different lists, different copy, different time periods, different offers) and he seems like a reliable source of information.

(Pay attention, this is where the magic begins!)

The he went to immediately state (paraphrased) "and if you double your open rate, you double your business".

This is a "sleight of mouth" technique (NLP, covert conversation, has many cute names) where a factual statement is made immediately followed by a second (unproven) statement.

The unaware listener hears both statements and the "truth" of the second statement is inferred by the factual nature of the first. Think of it as "guilt by association".

A --> B (proven abet poorly) and B --> C (no proof shown) therefore
A --> C (nope)

I have no idea if this was intentional or not. Having a background in statistical mathematics, I've seen this mistake in theory proofs often.

So, there you have it, a mass control-type lesson for free

(who says we can't stay on topic).

It all comes down to communication. Some people are good at it, most people aren't.

Now if anyone thinks I'm Frank or Guru bashing, that is fine. Hold me guilty as charged. For these naysayers, I ask you the following realty-check question:

Why are you buying these launch-type products? Really, why?

To use the information. Really use it ... good.

To feel like you'll somehow belong to the elite IM Guru club and be their friend because you spend thousands on products?

No, sorry my friend. That club is for the exclusive and you and I aren't in it

Thanks
1 reply

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veotis

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

(1) First hand experience: Yes, I've tested this tactic. Being a media buyer gives my company the fortunate position to purchase a lot of media.

(2) Scientific Method Burden of Proof: when a hypothesis is presented the burden of proof is on the presenter. Frank equated using bad news headlines directly to doubling your sales. Then he went on to provide "proof" by showing different emails and open rates. As explained prior, this "proof" failed to substantiate his hypothesis.

(3) Believability: This is for each individual. Whenever I present a claim, I attempt to provide sufficient evidence so others can conclude the same. If one wants to accept statements based upon the source of the information only, that is ok.

In case you didn't notice, "mass control" was used in his "proof" of the "bad news" headlines doubling your sales.

The video Frank presented basically said:

If you have a 1% open rate and use a bad news headline to get a 2% open rate, you've doubled your business.

Then he presented (anecdotal) proof by showing open rates on different email blasts.

Email A -- good headline
Email B -- bad headline (double the open rate)

Then he stated (paraphrased) "you double your open rate with bad news headlines." *ok, seems to be believable and he seems to have proven this point (even though different lists, different copy, different time periods, different offers) and he seems like a reliable source of information.

(Pay attention, this is where the magic begins!)

The he went to immediately state (paraphrased) "and if you double your open rate, you double your business".

This is a "sleight of mouth" technique (NLP, covert conversation, has many cute names) where a factual statement is made immediately followed by a second (unproven) statement.

The unaware listener hears both statements and the "truth" of the second statement is inferred by the factual nature of the first. Think of it as "guilt by association".

A --> B (proven abet poorly) and B --> C (no proof shown) therefore
A --> C (nope)

I have no idea if this was intentional or not. Having a background in statistical mathematics, I've seen this mistake in theory proofs often.

So, there you have it, a mass control-type lesson for free

(who says we can't stay on topic).

It all comes down to communication. Some people are good at it, most people aren't.

Now if anyone thinks I'm Frank or Guru bashing, that is fine. Hold me guilty as charged. For these naysayers, I ask you the following realty-check question:

Why are you buying these launch-type products? Really, why?

To use the information. Really use it ... good.

To feel like you'll somehow belong to the elite IM Guru club and be their friend because you spend thousands on products?

No, sorry my friend. That club is for the exclusive and you and I aren't in it

Hmmm, good points. As I stated, I have never purchased any of Frank's products, I just like observing his overall process. That is where the real lessons are.

As far as bashing goes, I believe you stated earlier in this thread, you were "an arrogant anomynous guru basher". I was just intrigued at how feverishly you were/are on Frank's case. I had just read the thread in the main forum by Paul Myers about why people bash gurus, and then I came across this thread to witness it in action. Like I said earlier, no harm meant. I'm just a curious fella'....

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1 reply

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by veotis

Hmmm, good points. As I stated, I have never purchased any of Frank's products, I just like observing his overall process. That is where the real lessons are.

As far as bashing goes, I believe you stated earlier in this thread, you were "an arrogant anomynous guru basher". I was just intrigued at how feverishly you were/are on Frank's case. I had just read the thread in the main forum by Paul Myers about why people bash gurus, and then I came across this thread to witness it in action. Like I said earlier, no harm meant. I'm just a curious fella'....

Ahhh ... that statement ... I was being sarcastic

Thanks
1 reply

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veotis 18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Ahhh ... that statement ... I was being sarcastic

Sarcastic wasn't the word that came to mind after reading your postings. You were on Frank so hard, and with that statment about "most gurus couldn't market their way of a paperbag (meaning take them out of the IM world and put them in the "real" world)", it seems as though you have a mixture of being envious and that of being angry. And that is a real shame, for you appear to be a very intelligent person. Good luck with your online endeavours...
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- nobodyspecial 18 years ago
  
  Good luck to you, too.
  
  Thanks
  
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  Rupps 18 years ago
  
  I received the mass control package yesterday. I am impressed with the speed of delivery. The products first appearance looks pretty good too.
  
  There are a lot of DVD's and I have only begun watching.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  tommyp 18 years ago
  
  I just got my package just now and plopped it on my futon. After I've been through it I'll try to come back if I remember and say whether or not I think it's cool.
  
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marcanthony

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

WTF? This isn't a religion and Frank's not the Pope.

And it's not a popularity contest either.

Sure, he sells a lot of stuff himself, helps other people sell lots of stuff and has some cool videos. Kudos to Mr. Kern. I mean that.

Doesn't mean we should roll over and play dead on command.

You kiss Frank's ring ... me, I'll judge every situation on it's own merit.

I believe mass control giveaway will be a good product.

For this situation about the "bad news" headlines doubling your business ... simply not true.

A couple of philosophical points to ponder (and before all the Kernettes go on the attack, these points are not directed or referenced at Frank in any way)

1 - "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer states people attracted to mass movements are not trying to find their identity, instead they are trying to escape one they cannot bear.

2 - If you catch someone lying about something trivial and inconsequential, what other matters of importance are they potentially lying about?

Peace.

Wow... why so much anger? Kiss Franks ring?

All I was suggesting was that we should tip our hats to any marketer that's experiencing success. Not just Frank Kern.

I sometimes wonder if forum posters like you are as tough as you seem-in person.

In other words, if you had a disagreement with someone in a bar or at a restaurant. Would you lash out at them in person?

Just a thought. Maybe you are as tough as you seem. I'm sure your friends know the answer to that.

Anyhow, take it easy next time. It's o.k. if you disagree with me.

But the passive aggressive "bully like" behavior is beyond ridiculous.

Calm down

P.s. don't forget to take your meds

Thanks
1 reply

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by marcanthony

All I was suggesting was that we should tip our hats to any marketer that's experiencing success. Not just Frank Kern.

Check your original post. You didn't "suggest" anything. You said bottom line just tip my hat as if Frank was royalty.

Originally Posted by marcanthony

I sometimes wonder if forum posters like you are as tough as you seem-in person.

In other words, if you had a disagreement with someone in a bar or at a restaurant. Would you lash out at that person.

Just a thought. Maybe you are as tough as you seem. I'm sure your friends know the answer to that.

Anyhow, take it easy next time. It's o.k. if you disagree with me.

But the passive aggressive "bully like" behavior is beyond ridiculous.

Calm down

P.s. don't forget to take your meds

OK, so I'm a passive aggressive bully who maybe isn't as tough as he seems that needs to calm down and take my meds?

Did I get everything?

Nice Marc, real nice.

Thanks
1 reply

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marcanthony

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Check your original post. You didn't "suggest" anything. You said bottom line just tip my hat as if Frank was royalty.

Umm... that's actually not what I said. And I did make a suggestion.

I suggested that we should all (not just you) tip our hats to any internet marketer that's having success, which included Frank Kern.

Maybe you should read it again.

And what I said was "real nice."

You really are acting like a crazy person on this topic. That's not an insult... more of an observation. Even if you can't admit that to yourself, just accept the truth.

I've lost my mind many times in forums. I can admit that. I can also say that once I accepted that I was being foolish, I straightened up.

Peace...

p.s. I hope that there isn't any bad blood between us because of this

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Midas3 Consulting

18 years ago

Originally Posted by marcanthony

You really are acting like a crazy person on this topic.

Is he , I must have missed a post somewhere, seemed rather sane .

WTF? This isn't a religion and Frank's not the Pope.

I thought he was rather humerously making a couple of valid points.

Despite rather liking Frank's work, he did use different lists in his vids to compare open rates which is quite misleading.

My two cents..

Thanks
1 reply

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marcanthony

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Check your original post. You didn't "suggest" anything. You said bottom line just tip my hat as if Frank was royalty.

OK, so I'm a passive aggressive bully who maybe isn't as tough as he seems that needs to calm down and take my meds?

Did I get everything?

Nice Marc, real nice.

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

Is he , I must have missed a post somewhere, seemed rather sane .

I thought he was rather humerously making a couple of valid points.

Despite rather liking Frank's work, he did use different lists in his vids to compare open rates which is quite misleading.

My two cents..

That's your opinion and I respect it. Especially since your are not attacking me.

Maybe I'm the crazy one. But it seemed to me like nobodyspecial was rather belligerent in his response to my first post, which he could have ignored.

But, hey... this is a forum.

Peace

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1 reply

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Midas3 Consulting

18 years ago

Originally Posted by marcanthony

But, hey... this is a forum.

Peace

Hi Marc,

You summed it up in that short phrase. One person can read the same verbiage and get an entirely different impression to somebody else reading the same text.

I didn't picture Nobodyspecial with steam coming out of his ears as he typed, more like rolling his eyes a wee bit.

All the best.

SH

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1 reply

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marcanthony

18 years ago

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

I didn't picture Nobodyspecial with steam coming out of his ears as he typed, more like rolling his eyes a wee bit.

All the best.

SH

I still feel like the response that I received was unwarranted when my reply could have been ignored.

It was the "you kiss his ring" remark that pissed me off.

Either way, Simon, you seem to be a pretty cool guy. And, I must admit that you have challenged me to look at his post differently. Unfortunately, I continue to see it the same way I did before.

Thanks again

Peace

Thanks
1 reply

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nobodyspecial

18 years ago

Originally Posted by marcanthony

I still feel like the response that I received was unwarranted when my reply could have been ignored.

It was the "you kiss his ring" remark that pissed me off.

Either way, Simon, you seem to be a pretty cool guy. And, I must admit that you have challenged me to look at his post differently. Unfortunately, I continue to see it the same way I did before.

Thanks again

Peace

Well, I can concur I am not angry or fired-up about this. Just a debating tone with me.

It was the "you kiss his ring" remark that pissed me off.

Call me crazy (again) but who is angry here?

Marc, your original post said:

"Just tip your hat to him and any other IM's that deserve it. "

If you want to communicate a suggestion, you may want try stating "I suggest ..."

You may not agree with someone's actions ... that is OK. This is only a (civil) discussion.

There's a huge difference between critical of someone's actions vs. being critical of someone's character.

Glib remarks such as "P.S. Don't forget to take your meds" and using
words such as "crazy" are actions of the latter.

If you feel my response was unwarranted, I'm sorry I offended and attacked you.

Thanks
1 reply

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marcanthony

18 years ago

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial

Well, I can concur I am not angry or fired-up about this. Just a debating tone with me.

Call me crazy (again) but who is angry here?

Marc, your original post said:

"Just tip your hat to him and any other IM's that deserve it. "

If you want to communicate a suggestion, you may want try stating "I suggest ..."

You may not agree with someone's actions ... that is OK. This is only a (civil) discussion.

There's a huge difference between critical of someone's actions vs. being critical of someone's character.

Glib remarks such as "P.S. Don't forget to take your meds" and using
words such as "crazy" are actions of the latter.

If you feel my response was unwarranted, I'm sorry I offended and attacked you.

You win buddy!

Thanks
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Scott Ames 18 years ago

Good stuff this Mass Control Giveaway. I'm spending my weekend pouring over the disks. It's one thing to "sort of" know this stuff based on all my reading, but its quite another to see it in practice by someone that has tried enough stuff to know what works.

Mass Control is being practiced on us the customer at the very same time all the tricks and tactics are revealed. They still work, in fact, might work better now that we know what's up. Simply amazing. It is a wonderful study in human nature and how to get them to buy, which is the ulimate goal of marketing.

Frank is even giving us stuff as a bonus providing more "stick" and is itself a lesson.

If you can't stand profanity, don't get Frank's stuff, any of it. He has graduated from the "don't do anything upsetting" to " I don't give a s*** cause I make so much money so take it or leave it"

If you want to learn to make money and can stand some grit, its really worth it. Of course I laughed at one Blog entry here that said that Frank's stuff didn't make him a dime. He put it on the shelf next to Traffic Secrets 2.0 and it still didn't make him a dime. Then he put it on the left side, still no money. Gosh.. you mean you have to open it and put this stuff to use to make money? Dang it.
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- Scott Ames 18 years ago
  
  I should add, even the price, $279 a month is a lesson. Frank likes to be higher priced than anyone and it really works.
  
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ttippmann

18 years ago

Yea he said it was going to be a giveaway until the last minute when it ended up being like 249 per month or so. I didn't sign up.

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Tony M. 18 years ago

Originally Posted by ttippmann

Yea he said it was going to be a giveaway until the last minute when it ended up being like 249 per month or so. I didn't sign up.

Well I guess you just didn't listen well... from the very first video he's completely upfront about the membership trial.

Anyway, does anyone know how I can get the LAST video or the sales letter ? I didn't get there in time to see it.
You can PM me if you prefer.
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How you can multiply the results of the 4 day Cash Machine
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Chris Lockwood

18 years ago

nobodyspecial, you seem to be missing the key points of Frank's videos.

His point was not that "bad news" or any specific subject line would double your sales- but that getting more people to open your emails would result in more sales, if other metrics stayed the same. This should not be a big revelation if you know much about email marketing.

"bad news" just happened to be one that had worked well for him.

Not sure why it matters which email's body was shown, since his video was not meant to prove that "bad news" is the best subject line.

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