List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why?

Good question. Was thinking about just this today. BRB with thoughts...

So here is what I was thinking. It depends on your type of personality. There are those email marketers who just see their list as a way to pay their bills (and then some) and there are those who are all about wanting to help others. So they build a relationship with them and "provide value".

The email marketers who churn & burn are the ones who sees the dollar signs when they have lots of subscribers on their list. They will send you up to four emails in a day. They are the ones that have lists of several thousands of people which they have more than likely attained through solo ads, list swaps, You Tube, etc. Of all these thousands of people on the list, they will very likely get a hundred or so opens and of half those opens, even fewer clicks and/or sales relatively speaking.

The Pros: The money is a lot faster, you don't need to "kiss up" to your list so much, you don't have to constantly be racking your brain to come up with "good content", you can easily get more people onto your list as you have unsubscribes because you don't care who unsubscribes. In fact, you want unsubcribes! You just keep adding more to your list, rinse, & repeat. Cha-Ching!

The Cons: Spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down, and you mostly end up on "junk email" accounts. That is, accounts that most savvy online prospects create to give away to get free stuff that never gets checked by them.

As for the "helpers", they are the turtles in the race of email marketing. They are the ones who send you the resourceful emails and give you tips & tricks, make videos for you and actually answer your questions when you email them. Once in a while they will send you a promotion with their affiliate link attached. The helpers usually build their list by selling cheap wso's full of value, a banner ad on someone else's download page, sig file, and sometimes even by selling their own product. For some, this works and they make a good living at it. I have also seen posts of people who have done this but with no success. In my opinion, having a fun personality is what makes the difference.

The Pros: You get more opens & clicks which can mean more sales, your list likes you and may even look forward to hearing from you and you get fewer unsubscribes, you promote less stuff but you make more sales when you do. When you create your own products, your list goes crazy and almost all of them buy it. No spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down.

The Cons: It takes a lot longer than a churn & burn to be profitable because you can't just send anything that comes down the pike. You have to be selective as to what you send out to this list. You have to always be careful what you communicate to your list or someone will get pissed and unsubscribe (which doesn't sound like much of a con if you ask me, ha ha!).

I am on the lists of both these types of marketers. While the churner-burners look like they're having more fun, I think in the long run I would prefer to be a helper. Looks good on the self assessment, you know?

Either way done right will keep the bill collectors at bay.

Ask yourself this - would you buy a product from an email spammer bombarding you all day long with recommended products... #$%&???!!!?

If your Burning your list your NUTS,
By developing a relationship you can then open the door to the higher ticket items and larger individual commissions.

Now building a relationship doesn't mean you get to know every member on your list and their pets name. It means that you provide value to them by only promoting quality and occasionally offering up something personal so THEY GET TO KNOW YOU.

I sold cars for a long time and I can tell you for sure you make more money off people that actually like you and know a little about you than the people you just bludgeon into a deal.
They also bring back relatives, friends and acquaintances and that's when the BIG commissions are made.

Keep in mind every email address is an actual human being, treat them right and they'll reward you time and time again.

IMHO

ODA

Credit to OnSubie:

If you are selling a hemorrhoid cure, what do you "relate" to your customers about, after you cure their hemorrhoids?

Building a relationship with your subscribers is good in some niches and a major waste of time in others.

Simple answer, really...

The one off fast buck charlatans practice the churn and burn
and never build lasting success... always looking for the next big
thing and the next group of naive marks.

The serious business builder in it for the long haul understands the
lifetime value of a customer as well as the enormous value of repeat
and referral sales.

You just have to decide... are you a one off fast buck charlatan or a serious business builder?

I don't agree with hammering your list but that is just my prerogative.

However, with that said, I came into this industry for 'time and financial freedom'. Not to be a list builder.

When you have a 'limited' marketing budget or no budget at all, you have to do more relationship marketing because you are trying to convert what you already have.

Churn and Burn however is a different ball game.

Most of these types were relationship based before but got tired of marketing to a list of FREEBIE seekers.

Free people don't like to buy guys!

Now on the flip side...

Some relationship marketers can afford to do paid but 'enjoy' the interaction that can comes with it (relationship). And they are the personality type that likes to be the person in the 'limelight'.

So some people like relationship and that works for them and others enjoy leveraging PAID Advertising.

It's a personal choice!

Now when you see guys hammering you everyday, realize that some of them spend up to (and even more than) $10K per week.

Don't take it personal because they probably don't know you exist. Just 'opt' out.

They are just trying to 'recoup' any lost dollars to put back into the marketing budget.

Well, pick out any leaderboard in this niche and you will see exactly how the biggest affiliates "build relationships" with their list. (they aren't in the traditional way)

A few years ago I was on plenty of leaderboards myself before taking a step back and expanding some other parts of my business outside the IM niche. I'm getting back into this niche in 2015.

If you send a lot of freebies it conditions people to not buy. If you send a lot of information, you can easily lose your list and cause them not to buy. (those are two ways people commonly talk about when they say "relationship building")

Many people don't want more information, they want solutions. But that doesn't mean you have to churn and burn. You can promote a lot and still build a relationship with them.

Don't mail for garbage...

Add bonuses that enhance the value of products.

There's been MANY times I didn't promote a product to my list but someone contacted me and asked about some sort of bonus I could offer them. With the new JVZoo feature which allows affiliates to integrate with GetResponse. You can now build a list of pure buyers. You will need bonuses to make that happen.

Mail early or if there's an early bird tell them about it ahead of time. If there's one thing I've always stressed to my subscribers it's the fact I get them in early on stuff when the price is at its lowest.

What you really should be doing when building your list is getting people to respect you. When they respect you, there's trust there.

Value doesn't have to be free and if you're worried about offending people when you promote something then this game isn't for you.

List building is extremely powerful. And if you are in it to make money and don't care what niche you are in, the best niches are MMO (make money online) and traffic generation.

Churn and burn? Sure, you can take that approach, if you want. Building rapport is always better, of course.

How often should you mail? Daily isn't bad... so long as they get something from it.

Good luck!

Don't waste your time. Build a high quality sales funnel with your own products, up-sells, down-sells, and a high ticket program and concentrate on building a long lasting relationship and condition them to buy from the beginning of that relationship.

LMAO you can make money from C&B but it will be way smaller and short-term...

there is an obvious choice...

i ageree...churn and burn is short term but it does work. but if you keep doing ad swaps. you will run and make money for a while. buy you do run the risk of shut down by auto responder companies

I've never quite understood the negative connotation of 'churn and burn' as a term and method. I think it's because I've not been introduced to it via the finanical sector route as someone pointed out above.

To me, it's always meant mailing your subscribers "offer after offer" instead of "info-info-freebie-info-offer-offer-info" route.

I do both. I make quite the same from both. Some niches lend themselves better to the churn and burn method, others don't. In both cases, I do want my subscribers to succeed, and it's only a matter of personal choice - both business models work (at least for me) and CAN work long term, based on how you get your leads.

the correct answer to the question in my honest opinion is that neither is really better.

The key is that your entire system is optimized to whatever method you chose.

i have tried the churn and burn methods under an alternative name in the IM market. its one of my few ventures into the IM market. here is what i can say. after playing with it for about 6 months.

there is absolutely money to be made there...easy money...fast money. and money that keeps on coming in. The key is that your entire system has to be optimized.

The IM/MMO online is an evergreen business with new people joining the niche everyday...lots of new people. plenty of new people for the churn and burn methods to work as far i can envision... and i been doing this stuff 20 years. this aint a fad. it can work forever basically if your system is setup right.

i think those who say that the churn and burn methods wont work are probably the same guys who say traffic exchanges or adfly traffic cant make you money. I have made what most would consider big money using both methods...pretty easily really. The key is the system...the entire system.

i do believe in a market like the IM/mmo niche, there is more money in building a long lasting relationship and developing high quality products. but that is a lot harder, slower, and much more involved... especially for those starting with no money or experience to speak of.

this is just my opinion. I really dont have a dog in this hunt. I just test and play around with all sorts of marketing ideas all the time.

my conclusion is very simply that if you put my and my 20 years of online marketing experience on the street tomorrow with less than $200 to spend, no contacts, and took away my knowledge.

Given the 2 methods listed by the OP, i would chose to rebuild my wealth starting with the churn and burn methods...hands down. its not even close really.

building a relationship with your list is very important for the long run if you wanna make fast cash and don't care for the relationship between you and your list then go a head and bombard it with spammy offers all the day but I think making money from a list multiple time is much better making money from a list once.

Well...

A lot of people are arguing about this and so was I when I started out with the churn and burn approach.

But...

Nowadays when I send people into my funnel they go onto a fairly long autoresponder sequence which is all about warming them up and build those relationships. And then I segment my list so those who have not bought anything for one or two months are moved to other lists which I use for churn and burn.

While those who becomes customers are moved to a separate list which I use to build more relationships and sell to this people over and over.

So far as I'm concerned you can actually do both! :-)

How about somewhere between the 2?

Work your list hard but just love your subscribers.

I have a couple of follow up sequences that send emails daily but I work hard to bring value with each and every email.

My average open rate even 15 in to my sequence is between 25 - 30%

My unsubscribe rate is low and I have not had any spam reports on Aweber.

I do not promote lots of different products but do tend to stick to a couple of programs I am involved in ... works for me

BERNARD

If you're just spamming out useless content to your lists along with endless ads just to try for sales, how does that help anyone?

Email marketing and list building is a long term venture, a give and take process, not something you do to get quick riches. You're in it for the long run, where both parties win.

Both of these methods can be used and both have their pros and cons.

Personally, though, I build my list with a relationship building attitude in mind. I do this because I want to really gel with my list, I genuinely want to help them and give them the tools they need to move towards their goals.

I have longevity in mind and move towards bigger, long-term goals with my business however some people prefer a short-term approach so churn-and-burn style listbuilding suits them.

But like I say, it's usually short lived and 'for the moment' with not much hope for long-term results or business building.

You want to build your brand, gain trust and genuinely help people.

I used to do a mix of both. In my mind churn and burn means to just HIT your list with offer after offer while providing ZERO value. I've tried it and didn't get the results I'd like.

I now try to do a hybrid of both ways. I still promote a product to my list in almost every email but I do it in a way that provides value and that builds that relationship.

Churn and burn really kills your list fast, so all the effort you put into building it up is pretty much for nothing.

let me reconsider my last post. i just found 2 of my friends got banned by aweber for the third time becasue they were doing churn and burn. i am starting to think it is more trouble than it is worth.

What type of business are YOU trying to create? A Churn N Burn business or a Long Term Business?

If you want a churn n burn business become a "mmo solo ad vendor" and see how long that lasts.

Do you think you will live comfortably living off a churn n burn business model?

Most newcomers come into internet marketing with a "Get Rich Quick" mentality thinking..

"All I have to do is abuse my list and money will churn out" when the real reality is it burns your list out.

Think of the reputation you want in the future to have, think of long term success, think of a real business!

There's a reason why not everybody succeeds online, something to think about.

The REAL question should be : Would you rather be positioned as a slimeball or as an expert in your field?

Whose going to take you seriously online if you can't even provide any real substance?

If you are providing your subscriber with a solution to their problem (the reason they joined your list) you can send them an offer every day and build goodwill doing it. Give your subscribers what they want, a solution to their problem.

i think another point that is often missed in these discussions is that there are actually many different types of customers/subscribers. Your goal is to get rid of those who dont fit your business model and attract those who do.

so with that being said, there are people...lots of people in the IM/MMO markets who for one reason or another are very active freebie seekers. Understanding that this is a "niche" within the IM market is a great way to build a profitable business around that particular niche.

On the same note, it was mentioned that one C&B marketer mentioned 5 different related solutions as being "the only solution you need". while that almost insults the intelligence of many of us true internet business owners. How do you think that sounds to a guy with shiny object syndrome? And to the list owner who has a list of people with shiny object syndrome on his list?

It may may well be that that list owner has indeed attract just the type of subscribers he want and he is giving THEM exactly what THEY want. He may wisely realize exactly what he is doing and that he is filling a very hungry sub-niche of the IM market.

Of course we can discuss the ethics of all this as far as what responsibility the list owners have to make sure their subscribers are successful. But lets be very honest, thats putting an awful lot on list owners and ZERO responsibility on subscribers.

The truth is NO list is for everyone. Some of the marketing lists i read would be useless to many here who are making a damn good living with the wso marketplace. but that doesnt mean they are better or worse than many other lists. They are different lists designed to fill the needs of a different market.

So which is better? Neither...they server different customers. much the same way as Tiffinay's jewelers and walmarts jewelry counter serve different markets.

Lets be real honest, many of those diamonds came from the same holes in ground. But walmart knows its customers and it provides its content/products based on the clients that it comes into contact with.

Every list owner should do the same. Its about building a full system....building a real business that serves some niche of customers in a way that makes you money.

The ethics is a whole other topic. but that gets very gray very quickly too. expecting the list owner to be responsible for the results of their subscribers is a bar most list owners dont really want to try to measure up to. I dont care who you are, or what kind of list you run.

To be honest there is no right or wrong way. Some marketers will provide a one off service and never have contact again. Others want to nurture a long term relationship in the hope of getting long term business - but this is never assured. Both provide a service but in different ways.

I would say that RB would be more important and more rewarding for lists.

Pros: You, well, build a relationship with your list. They expect and receive good content. In disagreement with an earlier post, I think that RB actually does allow you to pass along the next great thing that comes along - as long as it is a great thing, or you really think it is. If you do, your subscribers be more willing to give it a try.

Cons: For a RB would be it may take a little longer to build that trust. For CnB, the risk of losing subscribers faster than the ability to gain subscribers is a risk - but not as much as being labeled a spammer.

Sometimes I get emails from one marketer who won't even send me to a presell page. She will just link to other websites that further get her point across.

If she promotes affiliate products they are usually high ticket ones. She does not bombared my inbox with crap and I have bought from her before.

Pick your side.

Hi,

an interesting question...but there is one thing who makes me shake my head;

I see affiliate marketer who have a name in their branch, that they not give value first in their emails.

They start to write in a sale style- not soft presell style with the second email after the "Thank You" email to their subscribers.
Not give value first without promoting in their first, second, third, fourth email....

Every email after the first email, has an affiliate link in it, they write about how great the product is, not give value first, like this (example) "Learn the benefits from the best dog training"..... ( you will get the idea).

Nothing value, they write about products, how great they are with affiliate link in every email they send out.

Why they do that?
Every marketer says; "Build value first in your second, third, fourth emails and after then start to promote products in your email"....

I don't know why they do that. You guys have an answer for that?


marco005

BALANCE..

This is my usual autoresponder

Day 1: Thank you: Access Link
Day 2: Did you download yet?
Day 3: Offer

Day 5: Free Blog Post/Video
Day 6: Offer - Last Chance
Day 7: Free Content

Week 2 Day 2 (Day 9) - New Offer
Week 2 Day 3 (Day 10) - Content
Week 2 Day 5: (Day 12) - Last chance offer
Week 2 Day 7: (Day 14) - Content

In my personal opinion, churn and burn email lists are for selling solo ads and making quick sales. I had a list of freebie seekers but couldn't make any sales from it due to my low targeted traffic. I then decided to monetize the list with free offers since they enjoyed free gifts and I used that to utilize my income.

I also had a buyer list of 1300 people and I cherished that email list always providing them with info. I only used to promote 2 affiliate offers a month but made over $10k a month from it.

What I'm trying to say is that it all depends on the type of list you want. If you want to build a relationship with the email list, do it and give them free info. Rarely send affiliate products so that they believe that you really want to help them. Then randomly offer a product for sale and THEY WILL BUY IT.

My thoughts:

The long-term relationship model constantly grows. It is, or can be stable. It may take 6 months to build a long-term relationship list that generates reasonable residual income.

The Churn and Burn method might give you some fast cash. But, it never really grows. It is like a job. You work, you make money. You take time off, you go broke.

I think the best you can hope for in a Churn-n-Burn list is to delay your relationship business. So, if it takes 6 months to build the relationship model to your desired residual income level and you start with the churn and burn for 6 months first, then you will not reach your desired residual income level for at least 12 months.

Actually, it could be worse. Anyone who remembers you from your CB days won't have anything to do with you no matter how good you are. I remember several warriors who I will never do business with because I only remember that bad experience I had with them.

I have seen a reasonable approach to using CB in conjunction with RB. What the marketer does is get you on the list with a freebie, feed you valuable info for a couple of months, then, if you are not responsive, start the CB process because, obviously, there will be no relationship there.

I can understand and appreciate that approach. It has happened to me and I still remember the good I received from the marketer so I don't feel negative towards him/her as I would someone who just starts bombarding me with offers they obviously know nothing about.

Hi,

is the affiliate income from a list stable month to month, or does ist fall down after 2 months, so you need new subscribers and new affiliate offer?

Or is the income stable with 2 products in a month for 4-5 month, then after you must change your 2 products with new?

See I plan to build up an serious online business with a list to make $10.000 every month, so i make a little "business plan" about that.

I think the income will be stable for 5 months, the other 5 months is 50% income, also:

5 months like $10.000
5 months like $6000

is this realistic number? I not will grown a business where the income is not stable like;

1. month $10.000
2. month $2000 ...etc, etc

it must be stable as possible, not only with saesonal products, evergreen products, who people buy through the year.

marco005

I have renamed churn and burn to ... reload and recycle

reload them from everywhere including public toilets, bribe them cajole them onto the list then...recycle the big list into niches and then look after them like brothers and sisters.

I think it all depends on your personality. I'm sure that there are marketers making good money with both styles.

The money oriented marketers will churn and burn. The people oriented ones will build a relationship and sell stuff down the long run.

Ultimately, do what suits you.

Either method can be made to work...churn and burn is good if you plan on selling solos. Relationship is good if you plan on marketing high ticket and/or residual income products.

Building relationships - plain and simple. Especially if you have a smaller list and want higher conversions.

No Massaging, I dont call it churn and burn but I dont make a relationship and do VERY WELL.

Churn and burn will give you a churn and burn business (think short term)

If you are looking to build a long term asset on the other hand, you will build a relationship with your list.

The better the relationship the higher chance you will have in creating repeat sales/customers.

Look at you guys arguing lol.

To everyone arguing... Do me a favor...

Define: Relationship

Define: Churn And Burn

Define: Warm Fuzzies

(I bet you argue when defining those terms. Very amusing, amirite?).

is churn n burn similar to shake n bake?

At initial stage, it's only the trust and relationship that helps you to build your list. Yes it is necessary to keep mailing to your list to keep your list engaged with you but you cannot just churn and burn at the same time. You have to maintain a good balance between relationship building and marketing during that initial stage.

Segmentation gives you more options down the road. Segmentation has more pros and very few or no cons at all.

From the segmented lists of customers, buyers, and subscribers you may churn and burn with your subscribers only but not at the cost of losing them either.

Unsubscribes are inevitable but you should not be the prime or only reason for those.

Hi,

hands down the second option, look if you set your email marketing efforts as a long term income stream than it makes all the sense to create a reciprocal relation in here, one where you provide value first and sell afterwards, this way, you will get an asset for life, not just a short term scheme where you not only get the subs to unsubscribe but it will generate a negative impact on your reputation as well.

Cheers,

Diogo de Castro

Relationship Building First...

Because you have "human beings" reading emails... not freaking buying robots (:

Peter

It's pretty simple actually. If you are grabbing newbies then your list will only be good for about 45-60 days...if you are a leader and you have a bunch of guys on it like me...then you can cultivate and build a relationship...ala Frank Kern

I have both types of list. I tend to use real and unique list bait as well. If you opt in for a free plugin I treat you like a seasoned IMer and I cultivate as well as sell.

If you opt in to one of my make $1500 a day list...well...You are going to get high pressure techniques.

Good luck

If I'm spending my time,energy,and money building a list of subscribers I'm definitely not taking the "churn and burn" approach. I'm focused on key metrics like open rates,CTR,lifetime customer value and other important business metrics. But more importanty I'm focused on providing VALUE to my list. "Churn and burn" doesn't even cross my mind.

I can tell you from experience with lead generation lists that it really doesn't make a difference. There is no significant increase in conversion by trying to build a relationship by sending content or personal details about one self, as you see in the IM/MMO niche. At the beginning I do try and preframe the company as being an authority in bringing them only the highest quality offers and do a few static things in each message that adds an extra bit of professionalism to it.

empathize..

what would u want?

a sales pitch every five seconds invading your phones/email inbox

or awesome content with supplementary offers that he or she sells to u?

Churn 'n burn if you are promoting something on the sketchy side. Relationship build if you're offering something of real value.