List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why?

122 replies
Hello Warriors,

Just would like to know what are your thoughts on the question:

"List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why? Also, what are the pros and cons for you?"
#building #burn #churn #list #relationship
  • Profile picture of the author Simmvee
    Good question. Was thinking about just this today. BRB with thoughts...

    So here is what I was thinking. It depends on your type of personality. There are those email marketers who just see their list as a way to pay their bills (and then some) and there are those who are all about wanting to help others. So they build a relationship with them and "provide value".

    The email marketers who churn & burn are the ones who sees the dollar signs when they have lots of subscribers on their list. They will send you up to four emails in a day. They are the ones that have lists of several thousands of people which they have more than likely attained through solo ads, list swaps, You Tube, etc. Of all these thousands of people on the list, they will very likely get a hundred or so opens and of half those opens, even fewer clicks and/or sales relatively speaking.

    The Pros: The money is a lot faster, you don't need to "kiss up" to your list so much, you don't have to constantly be racking your brain to come up with "good content", you can easily get more people onto your list as you have unsubscribes because you don't care who unsubscribes. In fact, you want unsubcribes! You just keep adding more to your list, rinse, & repeat. Cha-Ching!

    The Cons: Spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down, and you mostly end up on "junk email" accounts. That is, accounts that most savvy online prospects create to give away to get free stuff that never gets checked by them.

    As for the "helpers", they are the turtles in the race of email marketing. They are the ones who send you the resourceful emails and give you tips & tricks, make videos for you and actually answer your questions when you email them. Once in a while they will send you a promotion with their affiliate link attached. The helpers usually build their list by selling cheap wso's full of value, a banner ad on someone else's download page, sig file, and sometimes even by selling their own product. For some, this works and they make a good living at it. I have also seen posts of people who have done this but with no success. In my opinion, having a fun personality is what makes the difference.

    The Pros: You get more opens & clicks which can mean more sales, your list likes you and may even look forward to hearing from you and you get fewer unsubscribes, you promote less stuff but you make more sales when you do. When you create your own products, your list goes crazy and almost all of them buy it. No spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down.

    The Cons: It takes a lot longer than a churn & burn to be profitable because you can't just send anything that comes down the pike. You have to be selective as to what you send out to this list. You have to always be careful what you communicate to your list or someone will get pissed and unsubscribe (which doesn't sound like much of a con if you ask me, ha ha!).

    I am on the lists of both these types of marketers. While the churner-burners look like they're having more fun, I think in the long run I would prefer to be a helper. Looks good on the self assessment, you know?

    Either way done right will keep the bill collectors at bay.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by Simmvee View Post

      Good question. Was thinking about just this today. BRB with thoughts...

      So here is what I was thinking. It depends on your type of personality. There are those email marketers who just see their list as a way to pay their bills (and then some) and there are those who are all about wanting to help others. So they build a relationship with them and "provide value".

      The email marketers who churn & burn are the ones who sees the dollar signs when they have lots of subscribers on their list. They will send you up to four emails in a day. They are the ones that have lists of several thousands of people which they have more than likely attained through solo ads, list swaps, You Tube, etc. Of all these thousands of people on the list, they will very likely get a hundred or so opens and of half those opens, even fewer clicks and/or sales relatively speaking.

      The Pros: The money is a lot faster, you don't need to "kiss up" to your list so much, you don't have to constantly be racking your brain to come up with "good content", you can easily get more people onto your list as you have unsubscribes because you don't care who unsubscribes. In fact, you want unsubcribes! You just keep adding more to your list, rinse, & repeat. Cha-Ching!

      The Cons: Spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down, and you mostly end up on "junk email" accounts. That is, accounts that most savvy online prospects create to give away to get free stuff that never gets checked by them.

      As for the "helpers", they are the turtles in the race of email marketing. They are the ones who send you the resourceful emails and give you tips & tricks, make videos for you and actually answer your questions when you email them. Once in a while they will send you a promotion with their affiliate link attached. The helpers usually build their list by selling cheap wso's full of value, a banner ad on someone else's download page, sig file, and sometimes even by selling their own product. For some, this works and they make a good living at it. I have also seen posts of people who have done this but with no success. In my opinion, having a fun personality is what makes the difference.

      The Pros: You get more opens & clicks which can mean more sales, your list likes you and may even look forward to hearing from you and you get fewer unsubscribes, you promote less stuff but you make more sales when you do. When you create your own products, your list goes crazy and almost all of them buy it. No spam complaints and auto-responder accounts getting shut down.

      The Cons: It takes a lot longer than a churn & burn to be profitable because you can't just send anything that comes down the pike. You have to be selective as to what you send out to this list. You have to always be careful what you communicate to your list or someone will get pissed and unsubscribe (which doesn't sound like much of a con if you ask me, ha ha!).

      I am on the lists of both these types of marketers. While the churner-burners look like they're having more fun, I think in the long run I would prefer to be a helper. Looks good on the self assessment, you know?

      Either way done right will keep the bill collectors at bay.
      Good stuff Simmvee, I am starting off with CnB but I am more of a helper kind of person so it's conflicting with my persona but like you said I'll just have to switch to RB later on down the track as I think that's more fun and I don't really fancy getting spam complaints and stuff so right now I feel my CnB emails are kind of in the middle hahaha. Thanks for the insight!
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      • Profile picture of the author Rashell
        Hmmmm...

        The thing is either way you're doing relationship building. You're just using a model that says "people on my list the relationship I have with you is one where I don't care whether you succeed or fail. I just want you to buy stuff so I can make a commission. So go buy my top pick from the crap of the day!!!"

        If you study email marketing a bit more you'll find there are "relationship builders" that are very successful at selling from the 1st email. And they sell in every mail they send. Sending emails up to 3-4 times per day.

        But anyway...

        Rashell
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  • Profile picture of the author elcidofaguy
    Ask yourself this - would you buy a product from an email spammer bombarding you all day long with recommended products... #$%&???!!!?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      This is isn't 2004 anymore.

      If you don't build a relationship to hold onto your subscribers, you won't have a business. There is so much competition for attention these days, you need to stand out in a way that people want to stay connected to you.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by Michael Shook View Post

        This is isn't 2004 anymore.

        If you don't build a relationship to hold onto your subscribers, you won't have a business. There is so much competition for attention these days, you need to stand out in a way that people want to stay connected to you.
        It's 2014 and while some things change, much of it remains the same.

        There is nothing wrong with churn and burn. But it only works if you can keep up with the volume of new leads you will have to acquire on a daily basis.

        When done properly churn and burn can make you just as much, if not more, than massaging your list.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
          Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

          It's 2014 and while some things change, much of it remains the same.

          There is nothing wrong with churn and burn. But it only works if you can keep up with the volume of new leads you will have to acquire on a daily basis.

          When done properly churn and burn can make you just as much, if not more, than massaging your list.
          There are lots of things wrong with churn and burn starting with what goes around, comes around, and often in ways totally unexpected and in areas far removed from the original action.

          To make money from this, you need to acquire a continual supply of victims at a cost that leaves you room for a profit. The world is only so big, with only so many people and so many markets.

          I suspect that working like this in a constant falling forward motion gets tiring, I might be wrong, but it seems that way.
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Originally Posted by Michael Shook View Post

            There are lots of things wrong with churn and burn starting with what goes around, comes around, and often in ways totally unexpected and in areas far removed from the original action.

            To make money from this, you need to acquire a continual supply of victims at a cost that leaves you room for a profit. The world is only so big, with only so many people and so many markets.

            I suspect that working like this in a constant falling forward motion gets tiring, I might be wrong, but it seems that way.
            I'm running a well oiled machine. You don't know anything about what I do, yet you assume I am victimizing my leads.

            It's the nature of the space I'm in that warrants a churn and burn approach - and I'm profiting handsomely from it.

            You're just making assumptions based on something you know nothing about.

            The world is bigger than you think.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
              Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

              I'm running a well oiled machine. You don't know anything about what I do, yet you assume I am victimizing my leads.

              It's the nature of the space I'm in that warrants a churn and burn approach - and I'm profiting handsomely from it.

              You're just making assumptions based on something you know nothing about.

              The world is bigger than you think.
              I think the world is plenty big with room for all kinds of people. I am sure you are profiting from this. Perhaps its just something about the phrase "churn and burn" from the financial industry that necessitated a constant supply of victims left holding the bag when their stock holdings became worthless to keep going. Maybe there is a different phrase to describe your business model.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post


          When done properly churn and burn can make you just as much, if not more, than massaging your list.
          Thats a totally bogus statement and stated straight with no fluff because its highly deceiving to newbies. The life blood of ANY business is repeat customers. Churn and burners just have no clue how much money they are blowing for the future so make ridiculous claims.

          You can make the claim that its faster money but you can't back up the claim that you make more over the long term .
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Thats a totally bogus statement and stated straight with no fluff because its highly deceiving to newbies. The life blood of ANY business is repeat customers. Churn and burners just have no clue how much money they are blowing for the future so make ridiculous claims.

            You can make the claim that its faster money but you can't back up the claim that you make more over the long term .
            How do you know it's bogus? How do you know I can't back it up?

            You're objecting to a statement I made based on my own personal experience which you don't seem to have any experience with.

            It's not deceiving to newbies either. I did say you need to add a high volume of leads daily which in most cases requires you to have a lot of cash flow.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

              How do you know it's bogus? How do you know I can't back it up?
              Because you can't and if you can then proceed with proof (but we both know you have none).

              You're objecting to a statement I made based on my own personal experience which you don't seem to have any experience with.
              Wrong and obviously wrong. I am objecting to a comparison between two mutually exclusive options. You cannot be massaging your list while you are churning and burning so you have absolutely no way to claim that the same list or participants of that list would have made you the same or less if you had chosen to massage rather than burn.

              The illogical nature of you are argument is comparable to claiming you can get more out of abusing your spouse as you would being thoughtful and caring. There is no way for you to present proof that is the case once you embark on a path of abuse. Meanwhile all previous historical lessons of relationships argue against the premise just as the history of business indicates that repeat business is critical for maximizing profits.

              Your claim can be rejected because you cannot prov e it and it defies common business sense. People buy more often and spend more money when there is trust based on a previous good experience not a bad one. Thats a fact as sure as gravity. Your personal experience has nothing to do with it.
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              • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                I'm not the type who walks around bragging about how much money I make.

                I have plenty of proof I don't need to share with you because you have an opposing view and anyone around here who knows me knows I don't play games.

                I churn and burn and make a lot of money. End of story. Don't need your approval. Don't care if you believe me.

                It's a viable model. Newbies beware as it takes a massive amount of cashflow and you need to drive massive amounts of traffic and generate massive amounts of leads on a daily basis.

                I don't need to sell anything to make money. And most of the money I make comes from not selling.

                There are other ways to generate revenue without actually selling a product.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Because you can't and if you can then proceed with proof (but we both know you have none).

                Wrong and obviously wrong. I am objecting to a comparison between too mutually exclusive options. You cannot be massaging your list while you are churning and burning so you have absolutely no way to claim that the same list or participants of that list would have made you the same or less if you had chosen to massage rather than burn.

                The illogical nature of you are argument is comparable to claiming you can get more out of abusing your spouse as you would being thoughtful and caring. There is no way for you to present proof that is the case once you embark on a path of abuse. Meanwhile all previous historical lessons of relationships argue against the premise just as the history of business indicates that repeat business is critical for maximizing profits.

                Your claim can be rejected because you cannot prov e it and it defies common business sense. People buy more often and spend more money when there is trust based on a previous good experience not a bad one. Thats a fact as sure as gravity. Your personal experience has nothing to do with it.
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          • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Thats a totally bogus statement and stated straight with no fluff because its highly deceiving to newbies. The life blood of ANY business is repeat customers. Churn and burners just have no clue how much money they are blowing for the future so make ridiculous claims.

            You can make the claim that its faster money but you can't back up the claim that you make more over the long term .
            I don't agree. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of "churn & burn," and I'm not really a huge fan of building relationships, either.

            As far as financial results, I have tried both ways and found that my level of income pretty much stayed the same. "Churn & burn," however, is wholly a numbers game. In order to make it work you need to constantly be replenishing your list. A rule of thumb that was told to me by a very successful marketer who employs the C&B model is that you should try to add at least twice as many leads to your list as you lose every day. For example, if you have 100 unsubscribes one day, you need to have added 200 new subs.

            Honestly, there are things that I like and dislike about both models, so what I've done is find a happy medium.

            I send out one email to my list every day. In each email, there is a promo for a product, and there is also a link to a video, blog post or free e-book that I made to provide value. The e-books work really well because you can add your affiliate links into them and they then become a method of promotion while at the same time providing value. And if you are not a writer or don't make videos, there are plenty of other places to find content that you can share with your list.

            I have to say that this has been working best for me. My unsubscribe rate is not very high, I get a decent open and click-through rate, and hardly ever any spam complaints.

            I've been doing it this way for about 4 years now. When I first started building my list in 2007, I was doing relationship building. I'll honestly admit that I failed with that because I didn't know what I was doing and wasn't doing it right. I made sales here and there, but I felt that for my list size at the time I should be making a lot more. Then, I tried C&B. I started to make decent money from my list almost immediately and was very excited, but at the same time I was wary because I didn't want to lose my autoresponder account or get labeled as a spammer. Also, I did feel that it was kind of a shady way to operate.

            I was facing a dilemma here, and didn't really know what to do. On one hand, I knew that building a relationship with people and not just treating them as a number was the right thing to do ethically. On the other hand, C&B provided lots of quick sales and was making me money quicker. So, what I did was incorporate the best aspects of each system and that was probably one of the best things I have done for my business.

            All of that being said, I think different people benefit from different strategies depending on their own personality. Everyone has to find their happy medium and then find their own stride. I know this is easier said than done.

            I don't think either method is wrong, and without some hard data I couldn't honestly say one way or another which method is more financially stable. Just my two cents.
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
              Churn and burn in the financial industry is akin to pump and dump. Where badguy stockbrokers would sell anything to anyone just for the commission, knowing full well that their customers were going to lose money.

              I email every day, some days a couple of times, info only emails, sales emails, reference other resources email, lots of stuff.

              No matter how often you email, if you offer something the readers think of as valuable to trade their attention or money for, you've got the basis of a good long standing relationship.
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            • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
              Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

              I don't agree. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of "churn & burn," and I'm not really a huge fan of building relationships, either.

              As far as financial results, I have tried both ways and found that my level of income pretty much stayed the same. "Churn & burn," however, is wholly a numbers game. In order to make it work you need to constantly be replenishing your list. A rule of thumb that was told to me by a very successful marketer who employs the C&B model is that you should try to add at least twice as many leads to your list as you lose every day. For example, if you have 100 unsubscribes one day, you need to have added 200 new subs.

              Honestly, there are things that I like and dislike about both models, so what I've done is find a happy medium.

              I send out one email to my list every day. In each email, there is a promo for a product, and there is also a link to a video, blog post or free e-book that I made to provide value. The e-books work really well because you can add your affiliate links into them and they then become a method of promotion while at the same time providing value. And if you are not a writer or don't make videos, there are plenty of other places to find content that you can share with your list.

              I have to say that this has been working best for me. My unsubscribe rate is not very high, I get a decent open and click-through rate, and hardly ever any spam complaints.

              I've been doing it this way for about 4 years now. When I first started building my list in 2007, I was doing relationship building. I'll honestly admit that I failed with that because I didn't know what I was doing and wasn't doing it right. I made sales here and there, but I felt that for my list size at the time I should be making a lot more. Then, I tried C&B. I started to make decent money from my list almost immediately and was very excited, but at the same time I was wary because I didn't want to lose my autoresponder account or get labeled as a spammer. Also, I did feel that it was kind of a shady way to operate.

              I was facing a dilemma here, and didn't really know what to do. On one hand, I knew that building a relationship with people and not just treating them as a number was the right thing to do ethically. On the other hand, C&B provided lots of quick sales and was making me money quicker. So, what I did was incorporate the best aspects of each system and that was probably one of the best things I have done for my business.

              All of that being said, I think different people benefit from different strategies depending on their own personality. Everyone has to find their happy medium and then find their own stride. I know this is easier said than done.

              I don't think either method is wrong, and without some hard data I couldn't honestly say one way or another which method is more financially stable. Just my two cents.
              Very nice and neutral post! Thanks for providing your insight there!
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            • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
              Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

              I don't think either method is wrong, and without some hard data I couldn't honestly say one way or another which method is more financially stable.
              This may have been one of the most logical sentences in this entire thread.
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              • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
                Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                This may have been one of the most logical sentences in this entire thread.
                We must always seek the truth
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  • Profile picture of the author oda
    If your Burning your list your NUTS,
    By developing a relationship you can then open the door to the higher ticket items and larger individual commissions.

    Now building a relationship doesn't mean you get to know every member on your list and their pets name. It means that you provide value to them by only promoting quality and occasionally offering up something personal so THEY GET TO KNOW YOU.

    I sold cars for a long time and I can tell you for sure you make more money off people that actually like you and know a little about you than the people you just bludgeon into a deal.
    They also bring back relatives, friends and acquaintances and that's when the BIG commissions are made.

    Keep in mind every email address is an actual human being, treat them right and they'll reward you time and time again.

    IMHO

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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                Why do I need to show you proof of my revenues to back up my points?

                You're real hard on my nuts to see how much money I make but like I said, I don't need you to believe me.
                then stop BEGGING that I believe you by repeating it over and over again Jason . No one cares what you make and your begging is in vain because you have nothing but your claims anyway (dime a dozen on IM forums). You are totally lost. You got off on that tangent because you couldn't back up your point that you can make more abusing a list with churning and burning than you can caring for it. Now get to proving it because thats the point not that you make mucho or nada.

                At least try to assimilate a point.

                I'm not asking you for yours. I don't care how much you make either - though I'd venture to say it's not much.
                If theres one thing thats almost universal in Internet marketing forums its that those who make little talk up the most of what they allegedly earn (its part of the fake it till you make it genre). Those that do ACTUALLY make it are satisfied enough with the cash while those that don't can only satisfy themselves with the claims cause they don't have the reality..

                Now if your other silly little point is that because people have sigs selling things to IMers here they have nothing but that then you are an even funnier guy than I thought. Some of us can actually walk and chew gum which on the internet means we can have multiple properties some of which will NEVER be in our sig.

                We are just not making the drop down silly embarrassingly vacant claim that you will make more or the same not caring for your customer base as you would caring for it. Why?

                Because its a positively stupid business proposition.
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                • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  then stop BEGGING that I believe you by repeating it over and over again Jason . No one cares what you make and your begging is in vain because you have nothing but your claims anyway (dime a dozen on IM forums). You are totally lost. You got off on that tangent because you couldn't back up your point that you can make more abusing a list with churning and burning than you can caring for it. Now get to proving it because thats the point not that you make mucho or nada.

                  At least try to assimilate a point.

                  If theres one thing thats almost universal in Internet marketing forums its that those who make little talk up the most of what they allegedly earn (its part of the fake it till you make it genre). Those that do ACTUALLY make it are satisfied enough with the cash while those that don't can only satisfy themselves with the claims cause they don't have the reality..

                  Now if your other silly little point is that because people have sigs selling things to IMers here they have nothing but that then you are an even funnier guy than I thought. Some of us can actually walk and chew gum which on the internet means we can have multiple properties some of which will NEVER be in or sig.

                  We are just not making the drop down silly embarassingly vacant claim that you will make more or the same not caring for your customer base as you would caring for it. its a positively stupid business proposition.
                  You're right, I contributed to this thread and was of a different opinion than you, so therefore I make little money.

                  Fair enough.
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                • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  If theres one thing thats almost universal in Internet marketing forums its that those who make little talk up the most of what they allegedly earn (its part of the fake it till you make it genre). Those that do ACTUALLY make it are satisfied enough with the cash while those that don't can only satisfy themselves with the claims cause they don't have the reality...
                  I'm really disappointed in you for forcing my hand. I never do this but you won't let it go.

                  Attached is a screenshot of my Bank of America account showing wires I sent from a company I have a 50/50 partnership in over the last 60 days, so whatever you see for me multiply x2 in terms of realized profits pulled out of the company. Will be pulling out another $15k Monday or Tuesday. Feel free to PM me for that proof too being you have nothing better to do.

                  It's probably not as much as you, but my family is eating pretty good. And this doesnt include what I make in my personal business.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                    Attached is a screenshot of my Bank of America account showing wires I sent from a company I have a 50/50 partnership in

                    ROFL.......The bank statement shot thing that everybody and his pet cow uses to convince the newbs. Jason Please its 2014 and the general knowledge of Photoshop has rendered those "proofs" anything but.

                    Furthermore all you have done is strike your own credibility because you have been swearing up and down that you have no interest in convincing me of what you earn but have now turned to the most cliche of begs.

                    Why does it bother you so that I am not buying what you claim to make. Its not even the issue. its what you would make more doing churning and burning than gaining respect from your list.

                    Power down the adobe cloud membership it aint working and it only does to the newbs. It aint even expensive to own photoshop anymore so its an all around fail.
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                    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      ROFL.......The bank statement shot thing that everybody and his pet cow uses to convince the newbs. Jason Please its 2014 and the general knowledge of Photoshop has rendered those "proofs" anything but.

                      Furthermore all you have done is strike your own credibility because you have been swearing up and down that you have no interest in convincing me of what you earn but have now turned to the most cliche of begs.

                      Why does it bother you so that I am not buying what you m claim to make. Its not even the issue. its what you wouel d make more doing churning and burning or gaining respect from your list.

                      Power down the adobe cloud membership it aint working and it only does to the newbs.
                      LOL I dont even know how to use photoshop but nice try.

                      I don't need credibility in here as I have nothing to sell. The warrior forum isn't my target market.

                      You're just a hater. Now that you've seen it I'll pull it down because I never share stuff like that in public.

                      Keep hating.

                      Just remember, you're credibility, which does matter in this forum since you sell your backlink spam services to fellow warriors, has taken a hit as well.

                      A hater and a spammer. The best of both worlds...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                        Just remember, you're credibility, which does matter in this forum since you sell your backlink spam services to fellow warriors, has taken a hit as well.
                        Where?

                        lol...Dude lets lay it out bare. Churners and burners of lists ARE spammers. Most of the people they collect their information did not consent to be blasted nonstop with crap offers just to fill your pockets with cash. Some of you slam the poor people emails with seven and eight or more message each week You are the spammers and quite often get your email stuck in the spam filters for a very good reason. You get off being labelled as spammers because they consented to receive offers FROM YOU but you then email them offers from anyone and his dog with little or no merit to the offers.

                        Meanwhile the hundreds of guys and gals that I have taught to build PBNs.along with those that buy full PBNs and other assorted services do nothing but put links ON THEIR OWN sites not spam email addresses

                        Google is free to call that link spam if they wish meanwhile disney.com links to ABC.com, Espn and a host of their other sites and derive ranking benefits from it.

                        You are a funny dude though. Churning and burning people trusting enough to think you will respect their email inbox but trying to lecture on spam. You have a future in comedy
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                        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          Where?

                          lol...Dude lets lay it out bare. Churners and burners of lists ARE spammers. Most of the people they collect their information did not consent to be blasted nonstop with crap offers just to fill your pockets with cash. Some of you slam the poor people emails with seven and eight or more message each week You are the spammers and quite often get your email stuck in the spam filters for a very good reason. You get off being labelled as spammers because they consented to receive offers FROM YOU but you then email them offers from anyone and his dog with little or no merit to the offers.

                          Meanwhile the hundreds of guys and gals that I have taught to build PBNs.along with those that buy full PBNs and other assorted services do nothing but put links ON THEIR OWN sites not spam email addresses

                          Google is free to call that link spam if they wish meanwhile disney.com links to ABC.com, Espn and a host of their other sites and derive ranking benefits from it.

                          You are a funny dude though. Churning and burning people trusting enough to think you will respect their email inbox but trying to lecture on spam. You have a future in comedy
                          Keep hating and spamming. Google is your friend...
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                          • Profile picture of the author dougp
                            Build a relationship by offering them quality products/services you created/used. Charge for your premium content, and provide some free content to build quality leads.
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                            • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
                              Originally Posted by dougp View Post

                              Build a relationship by offering them quality products/services you created/used. Charge for your premium content, and provide some free content to build quality leads.
                              I am actually thinking of a membership site down the track but still have got lots to learn. Would you know of a good membership site template for wordpress?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          Churners and burners of lists ARE spammers.
                          A generalization I don't agree with. Or rather, I am pretty sure I'm not a spammer - whether I 'churn and burn' being a personal choice (and a necessity of business in some niches like I said before).

                          And I am sure there are other 'churn and burn' believers out there who'd disagree with that generalization (Jason included).

                          The question was which is the better method - not which is the right one, not which is the ethical one, not which is the legal one - the question is which is the better one.

                          The simple answer to that, as with everything else, is both work and you've gotta test both to see what works for you and keeps you nice and comfy.

                          EDIT: Just checked again, and it asks for the pros and cons. Pros and cons would be objective, and whether we like those pros and cons is entirely personal for each of us imo.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by Sagar Mehta View Post

                            A generalization I don't agree with. Or rather, I am pretty sure I'm not a spammer - whether I 'churn and burn' being a personal choice (and a necessity of business in some niches like I said before).
                            If the context is calling people who put links on their own properties like a PBN to rank on Google (and it was the context) and someone who slams their lists with offers I stand by it with no apologies whatsoever- out of the two the C&Ber would be the spammer.

                            And I am sure there are other 'churn and burn' believers out there who'd disagree with that generalization (Jason included).
                            So? there are people who disagree with all kinds of thing accurate and not. Some even believe the world isn't round but flat. Its not really a point. So we disagree. Now if you want to have an intelligent conversation about it then kindly do what Jason couldn't and show how anyone is gong to prove his assertion that you can make more money churning and burning their list than choosing offers and emails that build value - the previously defined in this thread alternative. Its absolutely true that people might have had different definitions of churn and burn but the definition was laid out on the first page by citing the alternatives. Mark Hess pretty much laid that out.

                            The question was which is the better method - not which is the right one, not which is the ethical one, not which is the legal one - the question is which is the better one.
                            Meh.....you do an attempted divorce here that doesn't work out in the real world...only in the MMO world and only to people new to the adult world. Its wildly popular on MMO forums mind you so you get the amens but not outside of it. What is unethical is seldom what is better for long term business. Unethical doesn't tend to build good credibility so I would have to reject your premise and ay better and ethical ARE related

                            The simple answer to that, as with everything else, is both work and you've gotta test both to see what works for you and keeps you nice and comfy.
                            Nope this I am the center of the universe thing and only what makes me nice and comfy matters is just more of the same shortsightedness that makes IM very attractive to some but again long term does not work out in the real world for very long. Sorry...That why this board has seen people blow up big and still end up broke in a year

                            and no, sounds good, but I don't have to test that if people trust me they will buy more from me anymore than I have to set a match and gasoline to my house to test if it will burn.
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                            • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                              If the context is calling people who put links on their own properties like a PBN to rank on Google (and it was the context) and someone who slams their lists with offers I stand by it with no apologies whatsoever- out of the two the C&Ber would be the spammer.
                              I never said I slam my list with offers. I send a lot of emails to them with 80-90% not being offers but instead to authority sites.

                              According to Google, your PBN operation is definitely a spam operation no matter how you try to defend it.

                              Google Targets Sites Using Private Blog Networks With Manual Action Ranking Penalties

                              I stand by my beliefs and hard data and offer no apologies either.
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                              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                Not sure how Jeffreys and Bacak keep their Aweber Accounts.

                                Well I know Jeffreys still with Aweber. Matt may be with Get Response

                                Iam not saying what they do is bad but it is risky when you start emailing people 3 or 4 times a day with Offer after Offer.

                                Not prudent IMO. I would lose massive amounts of sleep worrying whether Aweber was going to possibly pull the plug on me at anytime.


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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                                I never said I slam my list with offers. I send a lot of emails to them with 80-90% not being offers but instead to authority sites.
                                Bleh so you flood your list with offers and burn them out. Just your choice of words. Spammers do the same.

                                According to Google
                                rofl.. Google is a deity that gets to determine morality or whats spam is to all human beings??

                                The drop down laugher of that is if any company or even deity were claimed to settle any other matter it would be laughed at (which is why I am laughing). You definitely have no point. In the history of business buying properties to leverage them even for advertising purposes has neither been spamming or abusing peoples properties like ...ahem..their personal email box you love hitting with "lots of emails".

                                to put a fork in your argument - you don;t know that Google itself has had to penalize another department in Google to save face did you? So google ITSELF has in the past been a "spam operation" by their own definition ....lol . So is Disney, Microsoft, Adobe an d every corporation that links to its sister and partner sites giving them a boost in search engines.

                                I stand by my beliefs and hard data and offer no apologies either.
                                thing is you offered absolutely zero data whatsoever to back up your assertions that more money is made churning and burning your poor subscribers. We are still waiting.

                                P.S. let me know your Paypal addy . last time you started referring to what I offered in my sig as a point I made a pretty good sale. Affiliates deserve their commissions.
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                                • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                  The drop down laugher of that is if any company or even deity were claimed to settle any other matter it would be laughed at (which is why I am laughing). You definitely have no point. In the history of business buying properties to leverage them even for advertising purposes has neither been spamming or abusing peoples properties like ...ahem..their personal email box you love hitting with "lots of emails".

                                  to put a fork in your argument - you don;t know that Google itself has had to penalize another department in Google to save face did you? So google ITSELF has in the past been a "spam operation" by their own definition ....lol . So is Disney, Microsoft, Adobe an d every corporation that links to its sister and partner sites giving them a boost in search engines.

                                  thing is you offered absolutely zero data whatsoever to back up your assertions that more money is made churning and burning your poor subscribers. We are still waiting.

                                  P.S. let me know your Paypal addy . last time you started referring to what I offered in my sig as a point I made a pretty good sale. Affiliates deserve their commissions.
                                  Spoken like a true SEO spammer churnin and burnin backlinks for better rankings. How could you do that to the people who use Google for search?

                                  Some people who engage in spamming the search engines don't care if they are, but won't try to justify it and call it something else. I'm glad I can help you grow your business.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                    Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                                    Spoken like a true SEO spammer churnin and burnin backlinks for better rankings.
                                    Sorry Kid. Churning and burning in SEO is also hitting other peoples properties with spam like you do with your C and B to their emails. It usually involves spamming tools like GSA and scrapebot leaving links on other people's sites. Putting links on your own site only to Google and google worshippers is spam. You see the reason why you and people refer to Google to settle the matter is precisely because you cannot make an intelligent argument that putting a link on my own site is violation of anything. Its after all MY property. Logically when you try it falls flat every time.

                                    How could you do that to the people who use Google for search?
                                    Level the playing field and allow a good mom and pop to rank with a national chain? Shucks thats how the web was before it was commercialized and advertising dollars bought position. In my Seo services I take real businesses and help them to get the exposure they deserve (PBNs are just a part of the equation and if you knew anything about SEO sites have to have content these days to actually rank in most competitive serps so its fine for the search user). So what I do for the people who use google is help companies have more parity with big corporations. I am quite proud of that. sorry.

                                    Some people who engage in spamming the search engines don't care if they are
                                    The more accurate term according to Google is "manipulating" their search results with bought links (or in the case of PBNs bought domains with links) and no many people do not care about that because Google already manipulates its search results for cash themselves. Do a search and tell me that the top search results on the page are not manipulated for cash??? Otherwise known as adwords

                                    Lol....You can't debate me on this and win on logic. You can only appeal to Google for the sake of Google worshippers but logically you have no point. You slam peoples email address with "lots of emails". I put links on my own sites just like Disney does on its main corporate site. Even a child (without the google worship) can see the clear difference. I don't violate peoples space who trusted me to treat that space with restraint .

                                    I'm glad I can help you grow your business .
                                    Hey first rule of marketing. Never turn down good exposure. If you want to keep highlighting my sig and what I offer be my guest

                                    Meanwhile hmmmmm....You don't see me claiming you make more money using a PBN than you would if you did SEO totally organically which is the point (which you are trying desperately to distract from) that you were making for burning your list up..
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                                    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                      Hey first rule of marketing. Never turn down good exposure. If you want to keep highlighting my sig and what I offer be my guest
                                      Hey man, I'm a man of the people. Consider this my belated Xmas gift to you.

                                      Let's say I had a monster SEO list and I do the churn and burn you detest, but my people LOVE to spam the search engines with PBN services like yours.

                                      Assuming you had an affiliate program, would you turn down my highly targeted traffic knowing I pound those subscribers into submission with offer after offer?
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                                        Assuming you had an affiliate program, would you turn down my highly targeted traffic knowing I pound those subscribers into submission with offer after offer?
                                        Your Application has been denied.

                                        You blast your subscribers so much they'd be a liability. Since we spend considerable time researching the domains to buy and spend money to acquire them we wouldn't want the higher level of buyer remorse refund requests from your list.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author oadvantage
                                          If you are providing your subscriber with a solution to their problem (the reason they joined your list) you can send them an offer every day and build goodwill doing it. Give your subscribers what they want, a solution to their problem.
                                          I have to agree with this, if you can provide a solution, even everyday to your list, then there is no reason to create any degree of separation between you and your list.

                                          Regardless of the reason, I could not logically think of a good reason to churn through a list. If you are talking about people unsubbing, well, this is going to happen with ANY list. If a large majority of them are unsubbing, then there can be a multitude of reasons, most of which are not good.

                                          I personally think you can make more money by building a relationship.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
                                        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                                        Hey man, I'm a man of the people. Consider this my belated Xmas gift to you.

                                        Let's say I had a monster SEO list and I do the churn and burn you detest, but my people LOVE to spam the search engines with PBN services like yours.

                                        Assuming you had an affiliate program, would you turn down my highly targeted traffic knowing I pound those subscribers into submission with offer after offer?
                                        I'll take the gift thank you! Yes, give the people what they want either RB or CnB...*Mike don't leave money sitting on the table*
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by oda View Post

      If your Burning your list your NUTS,
      By developing a relationship you can then open the door to the higher ticket items and larger individual commissions.

      Now building a relationship doesn't mean you get to know every member on your list and their pets name. It means that you provide value to them by only promoting quality and occasionally offering up something personal so THEY GET TO KNOW YOU.

      I sold cars for a long time and I can tell you for sure you make more money off people that actually like you and know a little about you than the people you just bludgeon into a deal.
      They also bring back relatives, friends and acquaintances and that's when the BIG commissions are made.

      Keep in mind every email address is an actual human being, treat them right and they'll reward you time and time again.

      IMHO

      ODA
      Hi Oda,

      What type of emails do you send for relationship building? Do you go as far as introducing yourself or telling a story about you i.e. like how books would do it? I have started mine as a CnB but I'd like to know if I can turn that to a 'Relationship Building' one or is it too late for that?
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Credit to OnSubie:

    If you are selling a hemorrhoid cure, what do you "relate" to your customers about, after you cure their hemorrhoids?

    Building a relationship with your subscribers is good in some niches and a major waste of time in others.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      Credit to OnSubie:

      If you are selling a hemorrhoid cure, what do you "relate" to your customers about, after you cure their hemorrhoids?

      Building a relationship with your subscribers is good in some niches and a major waste of time in others.
      That would make sense if people who have hemorrhoids never have any other issue they buy solutions for. We do not live in such a world. Incidentally if thats your niche you should learn it better. Only surgery provides a cure. In the case of hemorrhoids in particular a good percentage of your customer base will have flare ups again so theres EVERY reason to build the "relationship".
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Simple answer, really...

    The one off fast buck charlatans practice the churn and burn
    and never build lasting success... always looking for the next big
    thing and the next group of naive marks.

    The serious business builder in it for the long haul understands the
    lifetime value of a customer as well as the enormous value of repeat
    and referral sales.

    You just have to decide... are you a one off fast buck charlatan or a serious business builder?
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      Simple answer, really...

      The one off fast buck charlatans practice the churn and burn
      and never build lasting success... always looking for the next big
      thing and the next group of naive marks.

      The serious business builder in it for the long haul understands the
      lifetime value of a customer as well as the enormous value of repeat
      and referral sales.

      You just have to decide... are you a one off fast buck charlatan or a serious business builder?
      You can be a serious business builder in it for the long haul not after the fast buck and have a churn and burn approach to lead gen. Depends on the niche.

      But when it comes to the mmo space, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rory Singh
    I don't agree with hammering your list but that is just my prerogative.

    However, with that said, I came into this industry for 'time and financial freedom'. Not to be a list builder.

    When you have a 'limited' marketing budget or no budget at all, you have to do more relationship marketing because you are trying to convert what you already have.

    Churn and Burn however is a different ball game.

    Most of these types were relationship based before but got tired of marketing to a list of FREEBIE seekers.

    Free people don't like to buy guys!

    Now on the flip side...

    Some relationship marketers can afford to do paid but 'enjoy' the interaction that can comes with it (relationship). And they are the personality type that likes to be the person in the 'limelight'.

    So some people like relationship and that works for them and others enjoy leveraging PAID Advertising.

    It's a personal choice!

    Now when you see guys hammering you everyday, realize that some of them spend up to (and even more than) $10K per week.

    Don't take it personal because they probably don't know you exist. Just 'opt' out.

    They are just trying to 'recoup' any lost dollars to put back into the marketing budget.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    Well, pick out any leaderboard in this niche and you will see exactly how the biggest affiliates "build relationships" with their list. (they aren't in the traditional way)

    A few years ago I was on plenty of leaderboards myself before taking a step back and expanding some other parts of my business outside the IM niche. I'm getting back into this niche in 2015.

    If you send a lot of freebies it conditions people to not buy. If you send a lot of information, you can easily lose your list and cause them not to buy. (those are two ways people commonly talk about when they say "relationship building")

    Many people don't want more information, they want solutions. But that doesn't mean you have to churn and burn. You can promote a lot and still build a relationship with them.

    Don't mail for garbage...

    Add bonuses that enhance the value of products.

    There's been MANY times I didn't promote a product to my list but someone contacted me and asked about some sort of bonus I could offer them. With the new JVZoo feature which allows affiliates to integrate with GetResponse. You can now build a list of pure buyers. You will need bonuses to make that happen.

    Mail early or if there's an early bird tell them about it ahead of time. If there's one thing I've always stressed to my subscribers it's the fact I get them in early on stuff when the price is at its lowest.

    What you really should be doing when building your list is getting people to respect you. When they respect you, there's trust there.

    Value doesn't have to be free and if you're worried about offending people when you promote something then this game isn't for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      Well, pick out any leaderboard in this niche and you will see exactly how the biggest affiliates "build relationships" with their list. (they aren't in the traditional way)...............................What you really should be doing when building your list is getting people to respect you. When they respect you, there's trust there.
      .
      I pretty much see that as building a relationship. I am not a big believer in the touchy feely thing or giving out ton loads of free information. I simple mean adding value to the proposition of reading my emails rather the churning and burning them out.

      BTW there was another thread you asked me a question and I answered agreeing with you (but your post was deleted so deleted mine too). Just to let you know.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I am not a big believer in the touchy feely thing or giving out ton loads of free information. I simple mean adding value to the proposition of reading my emails rather the churning and burning them out.
        Yeah, I see a lot of people on here that basically tell people they have to babysit their subscribers kids, help them move furniture, or walk their dog in order to make sales and have a sustainable business. That's definitely not the case.

        "adding value to the proposition" is as awesome way to put it...
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      Well, pick out any leaderboard in this niche and you will see exactly how the biggest affiliates "build relationships" with their list. (they aren't in the traditional way)

      A few years ago I was on plenty of leaderboards myself before taking a step back and expanding some other parts of my business outside the IM niche. I'm getting back into this niche in 2015.

      If you send a lot of freebies it conditions people to not buy. If you send a lot of information, you can easily lose your list and cause them not to buy. (those are two ways people commonly talk about when they say "relationship building")

      Many people don't want more information, they want solutions. But that doesn't mean you have to churn and burn. You can promote a lot and still build a relationship with them.

      Don't mail for garbage...

      Add bonuses that enhance the value of products.

      There's been MANY times I didn't promote a product to my list but someone contacted me and asked about some sort of bonus I could offer them. With the new JVZoo feature which allows affiliates to integrate with GetResponse. You can now build a list of pure buyers. You will need bonuses to make that happen.

      Mail early or if there's an early bird tell them about it ahead of time. If there's one thing I've always stressed to my subscribers it's the fact I get them in early on stuff when the price is at its lowest.

      What you really should be doing when building your list is getting people to respect you. When they respect you, there's trust there.

      Value doesn't have to be free and if you're worried about offending people when you promote something then this game isn't for you.
      That free bonuses thing is a good insight, would this be in a form of a free report, audio, presentation or whatnot? Does it have to be something very related to the product or can it be sort of a generic self help guide i.e. how to remove procrastination in your life or something to that effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author ppceve
    List building is extremely powerful. And if you are in it to make money and don't care what niche you are in, the best niches are MMO (make money online) and traffic generation.

    Churn and burn? Sure, you can take that approach, if you want. Building rapport is always better, of course.

    How often should you mail? Daily isn't bad... so long as they get something from it.

    Good luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by ppceve View Post

      List building is extremely powerful. And if you are in it to make money and don't care what niche you are in, the best niches are MMO (make money online) and traffic generation.

      Churn and burn? Sure, you can take that approach, if you want. Building rapport is always better, of course.

      How often should you mail? Daily isn't bad... so long as they get something from it.

      Good luck!
      Thanks Eve, by the way, would you recommend funnel clicks over just normal solo ads?
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  • Profile picture of the author TakenAction
    Don't waste your time. Build a high quality sales funnel with your own products, up-sells, down-sells, and a high ticket program and concentrate on building a long lasting relationship and condition them to buy from the beginning of that relationship.

    LMAO you can make money from C&B but it will be way smaller and short-term...

    there is an obvious choice...
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by TakenAction View Post

      Don't waste your time. Build a high quality sales funnel with your own products, up-sells, down-sells, and a high ticket program and concentrate on building a long lasting relationship and condition them to buy from the beginning of that relationship.

      LMAO you can make money from C&B but it will be way smaller and short-term...

      there is an obvious choice...
      Hi there, if I started my list as CnB, does it make sense then to switch it over to Relationship Building or would you recommend to just create a separate list for it?
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      • Profile picture of the author TakenAction
        Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

        Hi there, if I started my list as CnB, does it make sense then to switch it over to Relationship Building or would you recommend to just create a separate list for it?
        you would need to create a separate list. Please don't go down the C&B route.

        I know your beginning and might think it will be easier but its not more easy/difficult
        than it is to build a relationship which is far more profitable and more importantly,

        DOES NOT WASTE RESOURCES

        If you C&B then you would have to keep adding thousands of subscribers on a daily/weekly basis to make any decent money and you would quickly [obviously] burn those out and need to add more.

        waste of resources

        If you created a relationship [in theory] had a good sized list of a couple hundred subscribers or couple thousand you WOULD NOT have to keep adding subscribers
        [although you should for increased revenue] because you have a solid relationship with them and they will keep reading your emails and buying [as long as you provide solid value, of course]

        So, unless you want to keep shelling out large amounts of cash on a weekly basis to keep adding subscribers to keep your C&B business model alive...

        I would create a relationship and really build a long-term asset.
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        • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
          Originally Posted by TakenAction View Post

          you would need to create a separate list. Please don't go down the C&B route.

          I know your beginning and might think it will be easier but its not more easy/difficult
          than it is to build a relationship which is far more profitable and more importantly,

          DOES NOT WASTE RESOURCES

          If you C&B then you would have to keep adding thousands of subscribers on a daily/weekly basis to make any decent money and you would quickly [obviously] burn those out and need to add more.

          waste of resources

          If you created a relationship [in theory] had a good sized list of a couple hundred subscribers or couple thousand you WOULD NOT have to keep adding subscribers
          [although you should for increased revenue] because you have a solid relationship with them and they will keep reading your emails and buying [as long as you provide solid value, of course]

          So, unless you want to keep shelling out large amounts of cash on a weekly basis to keep adding subscribers to keep your C&B business model alive...

          I would create a relationship and really build a long-term asset.
          Can I still convert my list to a relationship building list? or is it too late now?
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  • Profile picture of the author tristatemedia
    i ageree...churn and burn is short term but it does work. but if you keep doing ad swaps. you will run and make money for a while. buy you do run the risk of shut down by auto responder companies
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  • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
    I've never quite understood the negative connotation of 'churn and burn' as a term and method. I think it's because I've not been introduced to it via the finanical sector route as someone pointed out above.

    To me, it's always meant mailing your subscribers "offer after offer" instead of "info-info-freebie-info-offer-offer-info" route.

    I do both. I make quite the same from both. Some niches lend themselves better to the churn and burn method, others don't. In both cases, I do want my subscribers to succeed, and it's only a matter of personal choice - both business models work (at least for me) and CAN work long term, based on how you get your leads.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by Sagar Mehta View Post

      I've never quite understood the negative connotation of 'churn and burn' as a term and method. I think it's because I've not been introduced to it via the finanical sector route as someone pointed out above.

      To me, it's always meant mailing your subscribers "offer after offer" instead of "info-info-freebie-info-offer-offer-info" route.

      I do both. I make quite the same from both. Some niches lend themselves better to the churn and burn method, others don't. In both cases, I do want my subscribers to succeed, and it's only a matter of personal choice - both business models work (at least for me) and CAN work long term, based on how you get your leads.
      Where do you normally get leads for Churn and Burn, I was thinking of getting bit of video traffic from youtube but I am not sure if that's effective.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
        Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

        Where do you normally get leads for Churn and Burn, I was thinking of getting bit of video traffic from youtube but I am not sure if that's effective.
        Be ready to test and track as much as you can. My preferred method is PPV. Youtube & PPV are monsters in their own right, and there's a learning curve.
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        • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
          Originally Posted by Sagar Mehta View Post

          Be ready to test and track as much as you can. My preferred method is PPV. Youtube & PPV are monsters in their own right, and there's a learning curve.
          Hi Sagar, thanks again. Yes, I think C n B has been given a spammer generalization perhaps due to a lot many users who abuse this technique. Anyway, do you have any recommendation of good places to get PPV traffic?
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by Sagar Mehta View Post

      I do both. I make quite the same from both. Some niches lend themselves better to the churn and burn method, others don't. In both cases,

      both business models work (at least for me) and CAN work long term, based on how you get your leads.
      Finally someone in here who gets it.

      Some niches, just by their nature, require a churn and burn approach for them to be profitable.

      And churn and burn doesn't always mean pounding your list with offer after offer.

      It can also mean email after email, as in my case. While I email my list about 10x per week, 80-90% (probably more like 90%) of the emails they get aren't selling anything. It's merely giving them what they want and in some niches that can be achieved through a publisher model. (ie: sending them to an authority site with adsense and other publisher revenue programs on it.)

      In some niches, the people only want one thing, and when they get it, they don't need you anymore.

      So you have to constantly be replenishing your list with new leads on a daily basis.

      Is it a waste of resources? It can be if you don't know what you're doing.

      It doesn't have to be if you have a proper system in place, especially when you're profitable on the front end which is rare. In fact, it can be very lucrative.

      Even though I spend a ton on traffic every day, it doesn't cost me anything to acquire the leads I get daily because the system I have in place offsets my lead acquisition costs to the point that I'm profitable doing so without even sending a single email to them.

      Everything else is gravy.

      It is a cash flow game, but once you figure out how to manage it, it's just a matter of how large you can scale it.

      Depending on the niche, building a high quality sales funnel with your own products, upsells, downsells, and a high ticket program isn't always the best approach.

      In the make money space and other niches where people are drawn to info products or software, it can be, but in many niches it's not the case.

      I think the confusion is people's interpretations of the term "churn and burn." It's not just about hammering them with offer after offer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

        I think the confusion is people's interpretations of the term "churn and burn." It's not just about hammering them with offer after offer.
        This, exactly ... many of the forum disagreements on this subject are actually attributable to the fact that people are using the expression "churn and burn" with some quite widely variable meanings and inferences.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

          Yeah, I see a lot of people on here that basically tell people they have to babysit their subscribers kids, help them move furniture, or walk their dog in order to make sales and have a sustainable business. That's definitely not the case.

          "adding value to the proposition" is as awesome way to put it...
          One of my early sales trainers taught me that being too eager to please can be just as counterproductive as being too aggressive. If you're going to sell stuff for a living, sell stuff. Don't be a hyper-aggressive jerk or a walkover supplicant. Be someone who "adds value to the proposition" and stick to that.

          In my own life, it's rare that I buy a car from the same dealer twice, let alone the same salesman. But the two cars in my driveway were both bought from the same salesman, and there would have been a third had we both not moved on, out of reach.

          Why him, and none of the others? He added value to the proposition. How? He treated me as a person, not as a mark, a walking wallet, or even a backward child who needed to be guided through the process. We did spend time chatting about non-car things, but both of us knew that I was there to buy a car and he was there to sell it to me, and we both knew it had to be a good deal for both of us or it wouldn't happen.

          That's the kind of relationship you want with buyers and prospects.

          Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

          That free bonuses thing is a good insight, would this be in a form of a free report, audio, presentation or whatnot? Does it have to be something very related to the product or can it be sort of a generic self help guide i.e. how to remove procrastination in your life or something to that effect.
          You might get a few bites with the generic bonus, but it's far more effective to offer something that is not only related to the product but enhances it.

          Take your basic IM launch with a bunch of affiliates competing, and the likely prospect pool subscribed to multiple lists. Most of those affiliates will offer a bonus of some sort for using their link. I've noticed that the ones who tend to win the affiliate contests tend to offer bonuses that, to quote the snip above "add value to the proposition."

          In other words, they make buying the specific product through a given affiliate desirable because the bonus they offer makes the main product better in some way.

          Take a list-building product, for example.

          Which do you think would be more effective as a bonus?

          > A custom theme, template or plug-in that makes operating the system taught by the main product easier

          > A companion course, normally sold as a stand alone product, that fills a gap in the main product

          or

          > A generic, probably PLR ebook on avoiding procrastination?
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        • Profile picture of the author tyronne78
          I agree with you 100%. Great point Alexa!
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          This, exactly ... many of the forum disagreements on this subject are actually attributable to the fact that people are using the expression "churn and burn" with some quite widely variable meanings and inferences.

          .
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          • It's been years I dont mail any list, but this is my experience back from my mailing days... the more I tried to build a relationship with them, the more they loved me and the more Facebook likes I got, BUT the less they'd spend on me. In the other hand, when I finally switched to a more commercial approach, turning the tone of my emails from "friendly and helpful" to "providing and selling", the money started to roll in.

            I dont know if that's churn and burn or not (I dont care for definations), but one thing I sure learned: you need to stop giving the farm and start selling (heavily) if you want to make money.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve B
        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

        And churn and burn doesn't always mean pounding your list with offer after offer.

        It can also mean email after email, as in my case. While I email my list about 10x per week, 80-90% (probably more like 90%) of the emails they get aren't selling anything. It's merely giving them what they want ...

        Jason,

        I can see that there is a big failure in this thread . . . and that is to define the difference between "churn and burn" and nurturing a list.

        Your definition of "churn and burn" as stated above . . . is my definition of nurturing your list . . . i.e. 90% of the emails aren't selling but merely giving them what they want.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Actually I think its just a whole lot of back pedalling because people have disagreed with the churn and burners. They have almost all admitted that you burn through your list at a pretty fast higher rate needing more and more subscribers than not churning and burning. That would not be the case if they were just giving their subscribers what they want.
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Actually I think its just a whole lot of back pedalling because people have disagreed with the churn and burners. They have almost all admitted that you burn through your list at a pretty fast higher rate needing more and more subscribers than not churning and burning. That would not be the case if they were just giving their subscribers what they want.
            I do burn through my leads pretty fast, but not because I pound them with offers.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    the correct answer to the question in my honest opinion is that neither is really better.

    The key is that your entire system is optimized to whatever method you chose.

    i have tried the churn and burn methods under an alternative name in the IM market. its one of my few ventures into the IM market. here is what i can say. after playing with it for about 6 months.

    there is absolutely money to be made there...easy money...fast money. and money that keeps on coming in. The key is that your entire system has to be optimized.

    The IM/MMO online is an evergreen business with new people joining the niche everyday...lots of new people. plenty of new people for the churn and burn methods to work as far i can envision... and i been doing this stuff 20 years. this aint a fad. it can work forever basically if your system is setup right.

    i think those who say that the churn and burn methods wont work are probably the same guys who say traffic exchanges or adfly traffic cant make you money. I have made what most would consider big money using both methods...pretty easily really. The key is the system...the entire system.

    i do believe in a market like the IM/mmo niche, there is more money in building a long lasting relationship and developing high quality products. but that is a lot harder, slower, and much more involved... especially for those starting with no money or experience to speak of.

    this is just my opinion. I really dont have a dog in this hunt. I just test and play around with all sorts of marketing ideas all the time.

    my conclusion is very simply that if you put my and my 20 years of online marketing experience on the street tomorrow with less than $200 to spend, no contacts, and took away my knowledge.

    Given the 2 methods listed by the OP, i would chose to rebuild my wealth starting with the churn and burn methods...hands down. its not even close really.
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  • building a relationship with your list is very important for the long run if you wanna make fast cash and don't care for the relationship between you and your list then go a head and bombard it with spammy offers all the day but I think making money from a list multiple time is much better making money from a list once.
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  • Profile picture of the author Javisito
    Well...

    A lot of people are arguing about this and so was I when I started out with the churn and burn approach.

    But...

    Nowadays when I send people into my funnel they go onto a fairly long autoresponder sequence which is all about warming them up and build those relationships. And then I segment my list so those who have not bought anything for one or two months are moved to other lists which I use for churn and burn.

    While those who becomes customers are moved to a separate list which I use to build more relationships and sell to this people over and over.

    So far as I'm concerned you can actually do both! :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author BernardR
    How about somewhere between the 2?

    Work your list hard but just love your subscribers.

    I have a couple of follow up sequences that send emails daily but I work hard to bring value with each and every email.

    My average open rate even 15 in to my sequence is between 25 - 30%

    My unsubscribe rate is low and I have not had any spam reports on Aweber.

    I do not promote lots of different products but do tend to stick to a couple of programs I am involved in ... works for me

    BERNARD
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by BernardR View Post

      How about somewhere between the 2?

      Work your list hard but just love your subscribers.

      I have a couple of follow up sequences that send emails daily but I work hard to bring value with each and every email.

      My average open rate even 15 in to my sequence is between 25 - 30%

      My unsubscribe rate is low and I have not had any spam reports on Aweber.

      I do not promote lots of different products but do tend to stick to a couple of programs I am involved in ... works for me

      BERNARD
      Thanks Bernard, that's what I am trying to do with my list. I try to stay ethical by providing them good mindset on how to approach the business i.e. when gurus say must upload a video a day, I tell em to build up on it else they will get traumatized if they fail on their first go and will never try the system again which leads to failure but I keep my emails very short too and kinda looks like CnB emails. At the moment I get 10-15% open rates with 1-3% CTR but I have a very small email list so it's not that much significant
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  • Profile picture of the author seoboyz01
    If you're just spamming out useless content to your lists along with endless ads just to try for sales, how does that help anyone?

    Email marketing and list building is a long term venture, a give and take process, not something you do to get quick riches. You're in it for the long run, where both parties win.
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  • Profile picture of the author DevEdge
    Both of these methods can be used and both have their pros and cons.

    Personally, though, I build my list with a relationship building attitude in mind. I do this because I want to really gel with my list, I genuinely want to help them and give them the tools they need to move towards their goals.

    I have longevity in mind and move towards bigger, long-term goals with my business however some people prefer a short-term approach so churn-and-burn style listbuilding suits them.

    But like I say, it's usually short lived and 'for the moment' with not much hope for long-term results or business building.

    You want to build your brand, gain trust and genuinely help people.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by DevEdge View Post

      Both of these methods can be used and both have their pros and cons.

      Personally, though, I build my list with a relationship building attitude in mind. I do this because I want to really gel with my list, I genuinely want to help them and give them the tools they need to move towards their goals.

      I have longevity in mind and move towards bigger, long-term goals with my business however some people prefer a short-term approach so churn-and-burn style listbuilding suits them.

      But like I say, it's usually short lived and 'for the moment' with not much hope for long-term results or business building.

      You want to build your brand, gain trust and genuinely help people.
      Valid insight too Dev, thanks for sharing! Foregoing instant pleasure for long term gains!
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  • Profile picture of the author Edwin Torres
    I used to do a mix of both. In my mind churn and burn means to just HIT your list with offer after offer while providing ZERO value. I've tried it and didn't get the results I'd like.

    I now try to do a hybrid of both ways. I still promote a product to my list in almost every email but I do it in a way that provides value and that builds that relationship.

    Churn and burn really kills your list fast, so all the effort you put into building it up is pretty much for nothing.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by Edwin Torres View Post

      I used to do a mix of both. In my mind churn and burn means to just HIT your list with offer after offer while providing ZERO value. I've tried it and didn't get the results I'd like.

      I now try to do a hybrid of both ways. I still promote a product to my list in almost every email but I do it in a way that provides value and that builds that relationship.

      Churn and burn really kills your list fast, so all the effort you put into building it up is pretty much for nothing.
      I know there are no black and white rules but does hybrid i.e. Churn and Build work? Lols I just made up a new IM term Churn and Build or Relationship Burning hahaha actually the latter didn't sound right
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Edwin Torres View Post

      I used to do a mix of both. In my mind churn and burn means to just HIT your list with offer after offer while providing ZERO value
      Thats pretty much it except it might be "little" instead of no value and it can be also where there might be value but the focus of the C&Ber/Spammer is not to provide it necessarily but to make bank.

      Thats really why the list burns out. Don't buy the niche argument. It makes no sense when you really think about it. No human being and not a single person on a list occupies one niche. If you sell one good product to a person and he trusts you he will buy another product from you or because of you (eg affiliate marketing).

      If your list buys things from you in one niche they will buy from you in other related niches and even some unrelated niches. People claiming otherwise are just not using their imagination.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Look at it from the subscriber's point of view...

        I somehow landed myself on a couple of C&B lists somewhere in the past. I haven't deleted the emails because gmail gives so much storage space, I tend to get lazy about things like that. Anyway, going back over a sample covering a little over a month, I found emails where the sender "personally highly recommended" five different courses on one topic as "the only course you need, better than all the rest".

        This leaves three possibilities:

        1. The five courses are all identical. PLR makes this a possibility, but makes the sender's statement about "better than all the rest" false.

        2. Five different sellers released, in that month plus I sampled, courses on the same topic, each all inclusive and better than the one before it, and the emailer had time to test and verify that fact before making the recommendation. Anyone care to figure the odds on that?

        3. The emailer is throwing mud against the wall. Maybe he's "clickbanking", selling solo ads or just sending every piece of junk offer he can hang an affiliate code on.

        None of these would leave someone in his right mind with a lot of confidence in either the emailer or the various vendors (unless they had reps of their own).

        By the way, this C&B mailer has actually established a relationship with me. But it's not a good one. If this particular person told me the sun was rising in the east, I'd want my own window, compass and timepiece to verify it, and even then I'd have my doubts...
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        • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          I found emails where the sender "personally highly recommended" five different courses on one topic as "the only course you need, better than all the rest"..
          Good insight John, I think this is where CnBers would need to draw the line as for me personally making such claims sounds like crossing the red line but aren't there ways to make CnB method somewhat acceptable? I know it's not ideal but perhaps you could make a suggestion
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

            Good insight John, I think this is where CnBers would need to draw the line as for me personally making such claims sounds like crossing the red line but aren't there ways to make CnB method somewhat acceptable? I know it's not ideal but perhaps you could make a suggestion
            It's all about setting expectations from the very beginning, and then living up to those expectations. Add a layer of honesty and transparency, and you're good to go.

            There's a difference between "you have to have this, it's the best ever" and "this is new and looks good, check it out." Also, don't tell people that you'll send "occasional emails with new products" when you really mean "no more than once per hour."

            I also want to touch on something else. Someone made the comment that for some markets, C&B is the only thing that works. I don't believe that. I do believe that there are some markets and products where it's more productive and profitable to bring more people into the wide end of the funnel than to attempt to lengthen it with additional products/offers.

            Want an example, not in the IM/MMO space?

            How about first-time mothers?

            Before giving birth, the new mother-to-be really doesn't know what to expect. She may have watched friends or relatives go through it, but it's not the same as going through it herself. She's heard about the joy and seen the pain on TV and read the horror stories about complications.

            You have a course that leads her through her pregnancy month by month, telling her what to expect and who to listen to - and recommends what to buy. Maybe it comes with a reminder service so she can keep up with doctor appointments, etc. For this example, let's just assume that it's really valuable for women expecting their first baby.

            What happens after the baby is born?

            You could try to predict what that mother might want in the coming years, nurturing a relationship and developing a back end over a period of years.

            Or you could congratulate her, wish her well, and concentrate attracting more first-time mothers to your course, fine-tuning your offers within your course.

            Which is "better"? It depends on your own skill set and temperament.

            Just don't be like my example above, and couple "churn and burn" with "lie, cheat and steal."
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            • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              It's all about setting expectations from the very beginning, and then living up to those expectations. Add a layer of honesty and transparency, and you're good to go.

              There's a difference between "you have to have this, it's the best ever" and "this is new and looks good, check it out." Also, don't tell people that you'll send "occasional emails with new products" when you really mean "no more than once per hour."

              I also want to touch on something else. Someone made the comment that for some markets, C&B is the only thing that works. I don't believe that. I do believe that there are some markets and products where it's more productive and profitable to bring more people into the wide end of the funnel than to attempt to lengthen it with additional products/offers.

              Want an example, not in the IM/MMO space?

              How about first-time mothers?

              Before giving birth, the new mother-to-be really doesn't know what to expect. She may have watched friends or relatives go through it, but it's not the same as going through it herself. She's heard about the joy and seen the pain on TV and read the horror stories about complications.

              You have a course that leads her through her pregnancy month by month, telling her what to expect and who to listen to - and recommends what to buy. Maybe it comes with a reminder service so she can keep up with doctor appointments, etc. For this example, let's just assume that it's really valuable for women expecting their first baby.

              What happens after the baby is born?

              You could try to predict what that mother might want in the coming years, nurturing a relationship and developing a back end over a period of years.

              Or you could congratulate her, wish her well, and concentrate attracting more first-time mothers to your course, fine-tuning your offers within your course.

              Which is "better"? It depends on your own skill set and temperament.

              Just don't be like my example above, and couple "churn and burn" with "lie, cheat and steal."
              Really good post! Thanks for providing insight! It gets very tempting to do the latter but in this business we don't really want to give it any more bad name that it already has. Gotta spread the good word!
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  • Profile picture of the author tristatemedia
    let me reconsider my last post. i just found 2 of my friends got banned by aweber for the third time becasue they were doing churn and burn. i am starting to think it is more trouble than it is worth.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by tristatemedia View Post

      let me reconsider my last post. i just found 2 of my friends got banned by aweber for the third time becasue they were doing churn and burn. i am starting to think it is more trouble than it is worth.
      Hmm..that sounds troublesome, did Aweber tell em what went wrong with their CnB method at all?
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Trujillo
    Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

    Hello Warriors,

    Just would like to know what are your thoughts on the question:

    "List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why? Also, what are the pros and cons for you?"
    What type of business are YOU trying to create? A Churn N Burn business or a Long Term Business?

    If you want a churn n burn business become a "mmo solo ad vendor" and see how long that lasts.

    Do you think you will live comfortably living off a churn n burn business model?

    Most newcomers come into internet marketing with a "Get Rich Quick" mentality thinking..

    "All I have to do is abuse my list and money will churn out" when the real reality is it burns your list out.

    Think of the reputation you want in the future to have, think of long term success, think of a real business!

    There's a reason why not everybody succeeds online, something to think about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Trujillo
    The REAL question should be : Would you rather be positioned as a slimeball or as an expert in your field?

    Whose going to take you seriously online if you can't even provide any real substance?
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  • Profile picture of the author Len Richardson
    If you are providing your subscriber with a solution to their problem (the reason they joined your list) you can send them an offer every day and build goodwill doing it. Give your subscribers what they want, a solution to their problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by Len Richardson View Post

      If you are providing your subscriber with a solution to their problem (the reason they joined your list) you can send them an offer every day and build goodwill doing it. Give your subscribers what they want, a solution to their problem.
      Good idea, informing vs solving a lot of people don't recognize this!
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i think another point that is often missed in these discussions is that there are actually many different types of customers/subscribers. Your goal is to get rid of those who dont fit your business model and attract those who do.

    so with that being said, there are people...lots of people in the IM/MMO markets who for one reason or another are very active freebie seekers. Understanding that this is a "niche" within the IM market is a great way to build a profitable business around that particular niche.

    On the same note, it was mentioned that one C&B marketer mentioned 5 different related solutions as being "the only solution you need". while that almost insults the intelligence of many of us true internet business owners. How do you think that sounds to a guy with shiny object syndrome? And to the list owner who has a list of people with shiny object syndrome on his list?

    It may may well be that that list owner has indeed attract just the type of subscribers he want and he is giving THEM exactly what THEY want. He may wisely realize exactly what he is doing and that he is filling a very hungry sub-niche of the IM market.

    Of course we can discuss the ethics of all this as far as what responsibility the list owners have to make sure their subscribers are successful. But lets be very honest, thats putting an awful lot on list owners and ZERO responsibility on subscribers.

    The truth is NO list is for everyone. Some of the marketing lists i read would be useless to many here who are making a damn good living with the wso marketplace. but that doesnt mean they are better or worse than many other lists. They are different lists designed to fill the needs of a different market.

    So which is better? Neither...they server different customers. much the same way as Tiffinay's jewelers and walmarts jewelry counter serve different markets.

    Lets be real honest, many of those diamonds came from the same holes in ground. But walmart knows its customers and it provides its content/products based on the clients that it comes into contact with.

    Every list owner should do the same. Its about building a full system....building a real business that serves some niche of customers in a way that makes you money.

    The ethics is a whole other topic. but that gets very gray very quickly too. expecting the list owner to be responsible for the results of their subscribers is a bar most list owners dont really want to try to measure up to. I dont care who you are, or what kind of list you run.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      i think another point that is often missed in these discussions is that there are actually many different types of customers/subscribers. Your goal is to get rid of those who dont fit your business model and attract those who do.

      so with that being said, there are people...lots of people in the IM/MMO markets who for one reason or another are very active freebie seekers. Understanding that this is a "niche" within the IM market is a great way to build a profitable business around that particular niche.

      On the same note, it was mentioned that one C&B marketer mentioned 5 different related solutions as being "the only solution you need". while that almost insults the intelligence of many of us true internet business owners. How do you think that sounds to a guy with shiny object syndrome? And to the list owner who has a list of people with shiny object syndrome on his list?

      It may may well be that that list owner has indeed attract just the type of subscribers he want and he is giving THEM exactly what THEY want. He may wisely realize exactly what he is doing and that he is filling a very hungry sub-niche of the IM market.

      Of course we can discuss the ethics of all this as far as what responsibility the list owners have to make sure their subscribers are successful. But lets be very honest, thats putting an awful lot on list owners and ZERO responsibility on subscribers.

      The truth is NO list is for everyone. Some of the marketing lists i read would be useless to many here who are making a damn good living with the wso marketplace. but that doesnt mean they are better or worse than many other lists. They are different lists designed to fill the needs of a different market.

      So which is better? Neither...they server different customers. much the same way as Tiffinay's jewelers and walmarts jewelry counter serve different markets.

      Lets be real honest, many of those diamonds came from the same holes in ground. But walmart knows its customers and it provides its content/products based on the clients that it comes into contact with.

      Every list owner should do the same. Its about building a full system....building a real business that serves some niche of customers in a way that makes you money.

      The ethics is a whole other topic. but that gets very gray very quickly too. expecting the list owner to be responsible for the results of their subscribers is a bar most list owners dont really want to try to measure up to. I dont care who you are, or what kind of list you run.
      Getting rid of those who don't fit your business model..(a good point) I think as long as you put up an earnings and affiliate disclaimer in your free report then wouldn't that be acceptable and not make it too hypey. Hope everyone could agree with this or not
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    To be honest there is no right or wrong way. Some marketers will provide a one off service and never have contact again. Others want to nurture a long term relationship in the hope of getting long term business - but this is never assured. Both provide a service but in different ways.
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  • Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

    Hello Warriors,

    Just would like to know what are your thoughts on the question:

    "List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why? Also, what are the pros and cons for you?"
    I would say that RB would be more important and more rewarding for lists.

    Pros: You, well, build a relationship with your list. They expect and receive good content. In disagreement with an earlier post, I think that RB actually does allow you to pass along the next great thing that comes along - as long as it is a great thing, or you really think it is. If you do, your subscribers be more willing to give it a try.

    Cons: For a RB would be it may take a little longer to build that trust. For CnB, the risk of losing subscribers faster than the ability to gain subscribers is a risk - but not as much as being labeled a spammer.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmagnet
      Originally Posted by MySocialHomePlaceDotCom View Post

      I would say that RB would be more important and more rewarding for lists.

      Pros: You, well, build a relationship with your list. They expect and receive good content. In disagreement with an earlier post, I think that RB actually does allow you to pass along the next great thing that comes along - as long as it is a great thing, or you really think it is. If you do, your subscribers be more willing to give it a try.

      Cons: For a RB would be it may take a little longer to build that trust. For CnB, the risk of losing subscribers faster than the ability to gain subscribers is a risk - but not as much as being labeled a spammer.
      OK I heard that for every 1000 subs you are only allowed 1 spam complaint and I think this number resets after a few days if I am not mistaken so then you can blast them again after x number of days to your heart's content.

      Question is: is this fact or just a myth? What's been your experience on this?
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  • Profile picture of the author regulardan
    Sometimes I get emails from one marketer who won't even send me to a presell page. She will just link to other websites that further get her point across.

    If she promotes affiliate products they are usually high ticket ones. She does not bombared my inbox with crap and I have bought from her before.

    Pick your side.
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  • Profile picture of the author marco005
    Hi,

    an interesting question...but there is one thing who makes me shake my head;

    I see affiliate marketer who have a name in their branch, that they not give value first in their emails.

    They start to write in a sale style- not soft presell style with the second email after the "Thank You" email to their subscribers.
    Not give value first without promoting in their first, second, third, fourth email....

    Every email after the first email, has an affiliate link in it, they write about how great the product is, not give value first, like this (example) "Learn the benefits from the best dog training"..... ( you will get the idea).

    Nothing value, they write about products, how great they are with affiliate link in every email they send out.

    Why they do that?
    Every marketer says; "Build value first in your second, third, fourth emails and after then start to promote products in your email"....

    I don't know why they do that. You guys have an answer for that?


    marco005
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  • Profile picture of the author TheProductReviewGuy
    Banned
    In my personal opinion, churn and burn email lists are for selling solo ads and making quick sales. I had a list of freebie seekers but couldn't make any sales from it due to my low targeted traffic. I then decided to monetize the list with free offers since they enjoyed free gifts and I used that to utilize my income.

    I also had a buyer list of 1300 people and I cherished that email list always providing them with info. I only used to promote 2 affiliate offers a month but made over $10k a month from it.

    What I'm trying to say is that it all depends on the type of list you want. If you want to build a relationship with the email list, do it and give them free info. Rarely send affiliate products so that they believe that you really want to help them. Then randomly offer a product for sale and THEY WILL BUY IT.
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    My thoughts:

    The long-term relationship model constantly grows. It is, or can be stable. It may take 6 months to build a long-term relationship list that generates reasonable residual income.

    The Churn and Burn method might give you some fast cash. But, it never really grows. It is like a job. You work, you make money. You take time off, you go broke.

    I think the best you can hope for in a Churn-n-Burn list is to delay your relationship business. So, if it takes 6 months to build the relationship model to your desired residual income level and you start with the churn and burn for 6 months first, then you will not reach your desired residual income level for at least 12 months.

    Actually, it could be worse. Anyone who remembers you from your CB days won't have anything to do with you no matter how good you are. I remember several warriors who I will never do business with because I only remember that bad experience I had with them.

    I have seen a reasonable approach to using CB in conjunction with RB. What the marketer does is get you on the list with a freebie, feed you valuable info for a couple of months, then, if you are not responsive, start the CB process because, obviously, there will be no relationship there.

    I can understand and appreciate that approach. It has happened to me and I still remember the good I received from the marketer so I don't feel negative towards him/her as I would someone who just starts bombarding me with offers they obviously know nothing about.
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  • Profile picture of the author marco005
    Hi,

    is the affiliate income from a list stable month to month, or does ist fall down after 2 months, so you need new subscribers and new affiliate offer?

    Or is the income stable with 2 products in a month for 4-5 month, then after you must change your 2 products with new?

    See I plan to build up an serious online business with a list to make $10.000 every month, so i make a little "business plan" about that.

    I think the income will be stable for 5 months, the other 5 months is 50% income, also:

    5 months like $10.000
    5 months like $6000

    is this realistic number? I not will grown a business where the income is not stable like;

    1. month $10.000
    2. month $2000 ...etc, etc

    it must be stable as possible, not only with saesonal products, evergreen products, who people buy through the year.

    marco005
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    I have renamed churn and burn to ... reload and recycle

    reload them from everywhere including public toilets, bribe them cajole them onto the list then...recycle the big list into niches and then look after them like brothers and sisters.
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  • Profile picture of the author Arun Chandran
    I think it all depends on your personality. I'm sure that there are marketers making good money with both styles.

    The money oriented marketers will churn and burn. The people oriented ones will build a relationship and sell stuff down the long run.

    Ultimately, do what suits you.
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  • Profile picture of the author webdave
    Either method can be made to work...churn and burn is good if you plan on selling solos. Relationship is good if you plan on marketing high ticket and/or residual income products.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by webdave View Post

      Either method can be made to work...churn and burn is good if you plan on selling solos. Relationship is good if you plan on marketing high ticket and/or residual income products.
      Actually, if you think about it, when you are building a C&B list for selling solo ads, the people on the list are not really your customers. They are your stock in trade, your raw material.

      The people buying your ads are your real customers. I would wager that if you treated them the way you treat your list, you would not be in business long...
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  • Profile picture of the author blitz20
    No Massaging, I dont call it churn and burn but I dont make a relationship and do VERY WELL.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Trujillo
    Churn and burn will give you a churn and burn business (think short term)

    If you are looking to build a long term asset on the other hand, you will build a relationship with your list.

    The better the relationship the higher chance you will have in creating repeat sales/customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by Matthew J Trujillo View Post

      Churn and burn will give you a churn and burn business (think short term)

      If you are looking to build a long term asset on the other hand, you will build a relationship with your list.

      The better the relationship the higher chance you will have in creating repeat sales/customers.
      As I've said multiple times in this thread, markets dictate the approach.

      Some markets lend themselves to a short life span of a lead. Others don't.

      Some benefit more from being stroked, others don't want anything to do with you.

      They just want what they want and stick around until they find exactly what they're looking for.

      With that said, if a market lends to short lifespan of a lead, but the supply of leads are endless, there is nothing short term about that particular market. It's your job as a marketer to figure out how to profitably serve them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matthew Trujillo
        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

        As I've said multiple times in this thread, markets dictate the approach.

        Some markets lend themselves to a short life span of a lead. Others don't.

        Some benefit more from being stroked, others don't want anything to do with you.

        They just want what they want and stick around until they find exactly what they're looking for.

        With that said, if a market lends to short lifespan of a lead, but the supply of leads are endless, there is nothing short term about that particular market. It's your job as a marketer to figure out how to profitably serve them.
        Understanding your prospects want and needs and from there making multiple sales from the same leads is more valuable then 1 off sales here and there. Relationship building and understanding your prospects needs are what separate the average marketers from the great marketers. Churn n Burn will not build you a long term asset.
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        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
          Originally Posted by Matthew J Trujillo View Post

          Understanding your prospects want and needs and from there making multiple sales from the same leads is more valuable then 1 off sales here and there. Relationship building and understanding your prospects needs are what separate the average marketers from the great marketers. Churn n Burn will not build you a long term asset.
          My business is long term and extremely profitable.

          Both approaches work. You just need to know your market.

          Most of the revenue I generate from this particular business is not from selling.

          Short lifespan of a lead doesn't equate to your interpretation of churn and burn.

          Feel free to pm me to compare numbers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Look at you guys arguing lol.

    To everyone arguing... Do me a favor...

    Define: Relationship

    Define: Churn And Burn

    Define: Warm Fuzzies

    (I bet you argue when defining those terms. Very amusing, amirite?).

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  • Profile picture of the author goindeep
    is churn n burn similar to shake n bake?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dilip Mane
    At initial stage, it's only the trust and relationship that helps you to build your list. Yes it is necessary to keep mailing to your list to keep your list engaged with you but you cannot just churn and burn at the same time. You have to maintain a good balance between relationship building and marketing during that initial stage.

    Segmentation gives you more options down the road. Segmentation has more pros and very few or no cons at all.

    From the segmented lists of customers, buyers, and subscribers you may churn and burn with your subscribers only but not at the cost of losing them either.

    Unsubscribes are inevitable but you should not be the prime or only reason for those.
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  • Profile picture of the author diogoim
    Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

    Hello Warriors,

    Just would like to know what are your thoughts on the question:

    "List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why? Also, what are the pros and cons for you?"
    Hi,

    hands down the second option, look if you set your email marketing efforts as a long term income stream than it makes all the sense to create a reciprocal relation in here, one where you provide value first and sell afterwards, this way, you will get an asset for life, not just a short term scheme where you not only get the subs to unsubscribe but it will generate a negative impact on your reputation as well.

    Cheers,

    Diogo de Castro
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  • Profile picture of the author heavenswebmaster
    Originally Posted by kmagnet View Post

    Hello Warriors,

    Just would like to know what are your thoughts on the question:

    "List Building: Churn n' Burn or Relationship Building First? Why? Also, what are the pros and cons for you?"
    Relationship Building First...

    Because you have "human beings" reading emails... not freaking buying robots (:

    Peter
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  • Profile picture of the author depotgang
    It's pretty simple actually. If you are grabbing newbies then your list will only be good for about 45-60 days...if you are a leader and you have a bunch of guys on it like me...then you can cultivate and build a relationship...ala Frank Kern

    I have both types of list. I tend to use real and unique list bait as well. If you opt in for a free plugin I treat you like a seasoned IMer and I cultivate as well as sell.

    If you opt in to one of my make $1500 a day list...well...You are going to get high pressure techniques.

    Good luck
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  • Profile picture of the author tyronne78
    If I'm spending my time,energy,and money building a list of subscribers I'm definitely not taking the "churn and burn" approach. I'm focused on key metrics like open rates,CTR,lifetime customer value and other important business metrics. But more importanty I'm focused on providing VALUE to my list. "Churn and burn" doesn't even cross my mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author DIABL0
    I can tell you from experience with lead generation lists that it really doesn't make a difference. There is no significant increase in conversion by trying to build a relationship by sending content or personal details about one self, as you see in the IM/MMO niche. At the beginning I do try and preframe the company as being an authority in bringing them only the highest quality offers and do a few static things in each message that adds an extra bit of professionalism to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author aizaku
    empathize..

    what would u want?

    a sales pitch every five seconds invading your phones/email inbox

    or awesome content with supplementary offers that he or she sells to u?


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    • Originally Posted by aizaku View Post

      what would u want?

      a sales pitch every five seconds invading your phones/email inbox

      or awesome content with supplementary offers that he or she sells to u?
      This is an erroneous statement.

      People do not want CONTENT... they want SOLUTIONS to their needs/desires. Therefore, email them relevant solutions... via your affiliate link of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marcel Guzman
    Churn 'n burn if you are promoting something on the sketchy side. Relationship build if you're offering something of real value.
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