48 replies
Enough of the BS.

Some of you won't have a clue what I'm talking about here. If that's the case, don't worry about it. If it doesn't apply to you, go about your business and have fun.

I just read through a 4-page thread bashing someone, and when another person jumped in with an offer to help, HE got bashed. Curiously, the people doing the bashing were almost universally anonymous, and posting under new accounts.

Some of the IP addresses used carried posts from more than one such "user."

By the way: Do not reference the person or product in question in this thread unless you want an enforced vacation from this forum. This will not be allowed to be an excuse for re-starting that garbage.

Here's the deal on that: If you don't have something obvious to lose by saying something mean or stupid, you don't get to post criticisms of people or products at all. Something to lose means, at least, a reputation. That translates to either a real name that matches a domain registration for a site that sells something, or a history of posting sensibly that covers hundreds, not dozens, of posts.

Push it the way some of the folks in that thread did and it won't matter if you've got a real name associated with an account that's 2 or more years old. Well, it might. You might just get 3 or 4 months off, rather than going away completely. Maybe.

Clarification for the newer folks...

Understand this: You don't walk in here and have rights or privileges, especially if you're anonymous. No name, new account, you're not harmed in the least if you get deleted. Do the usual stupid stuff and you will be, with no explanation and no sleep lost by the moderators.

That includes bashing, making lots of pointless one-line posts to drive up your post count, "asking for opinions" on a program after you've already signed up as an affiliate, or even looking like you might be thinking about the possibility of one day considering the option of advertising (outright or sneakily) in your posts.

It also includes political harping, from any ideological perspective. And re-posting a thread that's been deleted. Or yelling that your post (or previous user account) got deleted because one or more moderators has it in for you, or is trying to keep out the competition. Or claiming that the mods "have their noses up some guru's butt." Or being abusive in any way, shape or form to the folks handling the help desk.

Especially that last one. Just don't do it.

Or refusing to honor refund requests when they were offered and asked for. Or posting scammy WSOs or offers that endorse breaking the rules of this or any other site. Or trying to get someone to give you an illegal or unauthorized copy of any file, commercial or otherwise.

Or anything else that the moderators deem to be jerk behavior.

The majority of the problems are handled by the members. Understand, though, that there are individual moderators who can yank you at a moment's notice if you cross certain lines. And they have a reasonable amount of room for discretion in those judgments.

Nobody likes to do that. You can see from the free-for-alls that come up regularly that there's no need to walk around on eggshells or get paranoid.

Avoiding the specifics listed above is an excellent start. But don't push it, and don't try to use this as a be-all-and-end-all of what you can get nuked for. It's not.

Go ahead. Rant away.


Paul
  • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
    Paul,

    I vote you close this thread and make it a "Sticky".

    KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Wow, not sure what prompted this but it's probably about time for another reminder - good for you.
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I could not have written it better myself, my thoughts exactly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I've got the pitchfork. You've got the torch. Let's make lots of money.

    Thanks, Paul. A LONG OVERDUE thread that every new account should be FORCED to read prior to making post one. Can that be done?

    Thanks for writing what many of us think nearly every day.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      I've got the pitchfork. You've got the torch. Let's make lots of money.
      That sounds just like the pet boys song. thanks for putting it in my head.

      Paul,

      What some dont realise is that mouthing off here could cost them a lot of money. Not by being banned but by burning bridges...
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      • Profile picture of the author samstephens
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        What some dont realise is that mouthing off here could cost them a lot of money. Not by being banned but by burning bridges...
        So very true!

        You never know what lost business opportunities you may have in the future just by tearing someone to shreds.

        Generally speaking, most business people lose respect for people who badmouth others.

        I remember one of the first things we were taught in sales was if someone asked you about a competitors product, never bad mouth them. Sure, tell them why yours is better, but don't make derogitory comments about them, as it's a sure way to lose respect, and therefore a possible sale.

        Posting derogitory comments on a forum can come back to bite you again and again, for many years in the future.


        Great post, Paul!

        cheers
        Sam
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        • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
          Originally Posted by samstephens View Post

          -----I remember one of the first things we were taught in sales was if someone asked you about a competitors product, never bad mouth them. Sure, tell them why yours is better, but don't make derogitory comments about them, as it's a sure way to lose respect, and therefore a possible sale.-----
          That's just what I try to live up to in my offline IT support business. Newer say a bad word about any competitor. Convince your potential customers of the superiority of your own services, not the inferiority of the services of your competitors.

          I hope we still can discuss the marketing tactics, marketing ethics and business practices of marketers, both in the higher and the lower circles, without that being looked upon as bashing as long as it's a general discussion not naming people.

          What I mean is;

          There's always something that spawns a discussion. Even if you don't mention at all a spesific marketer or product in a thread, those that have been around for a while, or have a similar experience to what spawned the discussion, might understand the background for it and the person gallery involved. I hope that doesn't make such a thread bashing and grounds for a ban.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ryan700
            Originally Posted by JazzOscar View Post

            Never say a bad word about any competitor. Convince your potential customers of the superiority of your own services, not the inferiority of the services of your competitors.
            This is kind of like the tone that I'd like to use in my posts. There have been many a times where I deleted my replies because someone pushed my buttons regarding political issues and other things like which medical system is the "right" one etc. Leave the politicking out of here or I just might slip and get one of my rant's past my inner critic.
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            • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
              Originally Posted by Ryan700 View Post

              This is kind of like the tone that I'd like to use in my posts. There have been many a times where I deleted my replies because someone pushed my buttons regarding political issues and other things like which medical system is the "right" one etc. Leave the politicking out of here or I just might slip and get one of my rant's past my inner critic.
              I'm not quite as nice a guy as it might seem from my last post. As a norwegian, knowing what a good health care system is from experience, I also get very provoked by some of the posts in the thread in the Off Topic section of the forum discussing the U. S. health care system. Just a matter of time before I just have to invade that thread.

              Thinking it over, the U.S. health care system is not my competitor and the norwegian is not a service offered by me, so maybe a few bad and good words could be said without going against what I wrote in my last post.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                MikeWalker,
                Please explain why.
                Re-read the original post.

                Oscar,
                I hope we still can discuss the marketing tactics, marketing ethics and business practices of marketers, both in the higher and the lower circles, without that being looked upon as bashing as long as it's a general discussion not naming people.
                Absolutely.

                Even mentioning actions of specific people would be okay, as long as the discussions stuck to those, and didn't wander off into assumptions about character or intent. The problem is that it rarely stays that focused.

                The thread I referred to above is an example of another problem. Single users posting from multiple accounts, in this case anonymous ones, to add perceived weight to their slander. And another little troll who wandered in and attacked an unrelated individual, and a mostly unrelated company, with unsupported allegations that had nothing at all to do with the original topic.

                If a moderator sees something and thinks it might/likely will go that way, they will sometimes delete it to head off the problem.

                Damien,
                I do feel I 'owe' something to the community by exposing somebody's unscrupulous actions.
                That "feels" right, but it doesn't work when you expose those sentiments or that expressed motivation to the real world. The way people misuse the word 'unscrupulous' is problematic by itself.

                Then there are the people who misunderstand things. And the folks who outright lie, and use the same expressed motivation as their justification when blasting an innocent person.

                It's usually not possible for anyone here to know the difference between those cases, and the latter two sets are much more common than the first. So, it's not allowed.


                Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author RonLaden
    Nothing ruins a forum faster than pure flaming!
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  • Profile picture of the author lilhay
    LOL..I love it! You mean business brother! That's why I like this forum
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    • Profile picture of the author TedMarlett
      Paul,

      Thanks very much for the post. Seem like this type of behavior has been going on pretty steady lately.

      I like to read the forum a lot and it does not help at all when there are these idiots jacking up someone or putting out useless information.

      I do have a few that I follow because I can usually believe what they say. But believe me, they are now few and far between because for the past 6 months to a year the forum has had a lot of crap in it.

      I believe you mods are doing a wonderful job and really might need to step it up a bit.

      Thanks for the hard work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    CDark is right, there is NO definitive origin of the phrase.

    I lean toward the one based on old-style printing (maybe because I'm a writer?)

    @Paul - The self-righteous attitude of your post rubs me the wrong way.

    Not really; your post is spot on. But, I say that to make a point. I believe I could get a way with a comment like that because...

    1. I'm not anonymous. As you said, I would have something to lose.

    2. It expresses an opinion. It's not stated as fact, it would be saying how I feel and why.

    3. It may be a bit rude, but I don't think it crosses any line. I would be referring to the post, not you personally - big difference.

    4. I've been around long enough to get a feel for your style, so if it really did strike me as being self-righteous, I would be able to explain why. In turn...

    5. We could then discuss like reasonable adults (or semi-reasonable if it got heated).

    6. We could come out of said discussion still respecting each other, maybe even respecting each other more.

    7. I also understand that there IS a line, and if you, I or anyone (regardless of how long they've been a member) crosses it - we will be given the boot. Nobody is above the law here...

    The catch is that there are only certain things that could be considerd "laws". Other things are more nebulous. Does that mean new people are given less slack? Sure, sometimes.

    I truly think Allen has created the right balance of hard and fast rules, and leaving some of the other rules unwritten.

    Okay, I just re-read what I wrote, and it sounds a bit like I'm being self-righteous. Hopefully you understand the bigger point I'm trying to make.

    Kudos to you for showing some restraint. Your post could have just as easily been 10 times as long.

    All the best,
    Michael "Okay, I'm done babbling, for now" Oksa
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  • Profile picture of the author crissanteiro
    I want to stand up for newbies, since I am one. Bashing and being mean is obviously not a good thing. But there are other things that are not as clear. For example, I have asked questions about products, and not because I was selling or an affiliate of the product. I sincerely wanted to get some opinions about it. My post was immediately deleted, even though I did not mention the product name or anything. I also asked the support desk to let me understand what happened and never received an answer. I suppose that they thought I might be promoting such a product, but it was never clear to me.

    Anyway, I just want to say that sometimes we newbies are not trying to cause trouble, we are just learning as we go.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by crissanteiro View Post

      I want to stand up for newbies, since I am one. Bashing and being mean is obviously not a good thing. But there are other things that are not as clear. For example, I have asked questions about products, and not because I was selling or an affiliate of the product. I sincerely wanted to get some opinions about it. My post was immediately deleted, even though I did not mention the product name or anything. I also asked the support desk to let me understand what happened and never received an answer. I suppose that they thought I might be promoting such a product, but it was never clear to me.

      Anyway, I just want to say that sometimes we newbies are not trying to cause trouble, we are just learning as we go.
      Hi Cris,

      It's a shame that this happens; it's an unfortunate side effect of all the bad apples.

      Some rules are not written down, so new people have to feel their way around. But there are good reasons for not writing down every nuance of each rule.

      I could say when you ask questions like you mentioned in your post, that you should add that you are really just asking for clarification - however, how could you possibly know to do that?

      After a while, you will appreciate the little quirks of the forum more and more.

      Hang in there.

      Also, if you have specific questions and you are concerned they will be deleted...please feel free to send me a PM. I will do my best to answer, or I can offer my opinion as to how the question is likely to be received.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author crissanteiro
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Hi Cris,


        Also, if you have specific questions and you are concerned they will be deleted...please feel free to send me a PM. I will do my best to answer, or I can offer my opinion as to how the question is likely to be received.

        All the best,

        Michael
        That will surely be helpful to me.

        Thanks...
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I have asked questions about products, and not because I was selling or an affiliate of the product
          You can also use an advanced search from the toolbar and use the product title as a keyword to see if it has been discussed here. I think sometimes if a product is being talked about in a thread additional threads about it might be deleted (my guess - don't know that for sure).

          kay
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Cris,
    Originally Posted by crissanteiro View Post

    For example, I have asked questions about products, and not because I was selling or an affiliate of the product. I sincerely wanted to get some opinions about it. My post was immediately deleted.
    There's always the possibility that the thread
    was moved to the Product Review forum.

    Was that the thread in question?

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Joe,

      I'll probably add it to the "Better Member Moderator" thread. I'm definitely going to start PMing it to some folks.

      Andy,

      You don't want to know.

      Garrie,

      Yep. But the folks who need to learn that lesson are the ones least likely to. As usual...

      Ted,

      I don't think "jacking someone up" is really a problem, as long as it's done the right way. Take Michael's example comment to me, for instance. Clearly not grounds for smacking someone down in any official way, even if he meant it.

      I'm the last person to expect everyone to behave like Victorian 4th graders.

      Michael,

      Thanks. A very good way to make the point.

      Cris,

      Fear not. We're not looking for reasons to give new folks grief. There'd only be me, Bryan Kumar and Allen left if that was the goal.

      John seems to have found your missing thread. That brings up an excellent thought: If a thread goes awol that you're sure shouldn't have, go have a look at the statistics tab in your profile, and look for all threads started by you. If it's been moved, that will show you where.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Palitra
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      This one (Palitra) is a great example. Location says London, but s/he's posting from an IP in Israel. The domains are registered to someone in Israel, except for the freetrafficsystem domain. Not conclusive of anything, but interesting as data points.

      Lots of very short posts makes that more interesting.

      Sig file includes an affiliate link. Bad mojo. No cookie.

      Pointless one-liner in this thread is also interesting.

      All sorts of "watch this one" flags.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    Paul,

    We're still allowed to bash Harvey, aren't we?

    Pearson
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Pearson,
      We're still allowed to bash Harvey, aren't we?
      Of course. [*] Some institutions are sacrosanct. The one Harvey's in, for example.


      Paul
      [*] But only with a Very Dry feather...
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeWalker
    Deleted again I see.

    Please explain why.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    lol a one liner in a thread that tells you how bad they are

    My warped sense of humor finds it amusing

    Also pleased to hear we can still batter Harvey, (he deserves it lol)

    Kim

    Originally Posted by frudotiktik View Post

    Hello.
    You have written very nice post. Your post is very informative.

    Joomla programmer
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      lol a one liner in a thread that tells you how bad they are

      My warped sense of humor finds it amusing
      Kim, I found it amusing too! Throwing down a one-liner in this of all posts. I should create a post called "no more one liners" and see how many new people without real names post to it.


      Thanks for posting this reminder, Paul. Lots of folks walking around with an entitlement mentality, which can lead to some of the behaviors you're talking about.

      Cheers,
      Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      Also pleased to hear we can still batter Harvey, (he deserves it lol) Kim
      I rather like battered Harvey. Or is that Cod? Or deep fried Mars Bar?

      I doubt I could eat a whole one though.


      Someone has been very brave trying to hijack a Paul Myers thread. But at least I've learned that when someone is a jerk on the WF, PM'ing them doesn't mean private message.

      Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post


      Also pleased to hear we can still batter Harvey

      Ahh batter!

      I read that as barter.. I was wondering who would be daft
      enough to swap anything of value for a Harvey?

      :rolleyes:

      John
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by frudotiktik View Post

    Hello.
    You have written very nice post. Your post is very informative.

    Joomla programmer
    Can some people not read? Geeesh. Takes balls or plain ignorance to post a newbie, post count increasing one-liner in a thread that specifically mentions not to post one-liners for the sake of increasing post count.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimGross
    Outside of the new accounts posting anonymously from suspicious origins (ie, people solely here to cause trouble), a lot of the rest can be summed up by this quote:
    "Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

      Outside of the new accounts posting anonymously from suspicious origins (ie, people solely here to cause trouble), a lot of the rest can be summed up by this quote:
      "Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."
      Great quote Tim. I think it does sum up a lot of this.

      So I guess that makes me an average person.
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    • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
      Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

      Outside of the new accounts posting anonymously from suspicious origins (ie, people solely here to cause trouble), a lot of the rest can be summed up by this quote:
      "Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."
      That is so true. I can't stand gossip and mindless bashing, though I do feel I 'owe' something to the community by exposing somebody's unscrupulous actions. I have no time for people who just bash for the sake of bashing though. They represent everything that is wrong with the world.
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    • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
      Originally Posted by TimGross View Post

      "Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."
      Ah, no wonder we have so few great historians..and so many blardy great people in the WSO section
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  • Profile picture of the author TLCarroll
    Speaking of batter...I just ran across a recipe for chicken fried bacon on MSN.

    Cuz, ya know, bacon's not nearly calorie laden, Let's batter and fry it, too!

    And I thought they'd gone far enough with chocolate covered bacon. Yikes. LOL

    Um. Back on topic: It's knuckleheads that get everyone in trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author cesarsan
    Maybe I surf the forums distracted or I am optimistic but to me the situation is not that bad. Sure the clueless one-liners (you can almost feel pity for them, almost ) are annoying and the ad trolls are a pest but they are so easily spotted and dealt with that, to me at least, they are a non issue.

    About scams, well, don't buy anything from a guy with 30 posts that is promising to sell you the sky and will give you the moon as a free bonus.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBeard
    I certainly have an good idea which posts you are talking about, though not the second part of it which was inexcusable.

    My solution to the problem was to gnaw my knuckles throughout a whole weekend after receiving a response from a support drone that should be sent to all planes of hell, in a never ending GOTO loop. Alternatively the person who trained him should accept the punishment.

    I didn't so much care about my own refund, but for the hundreds who reporting having received a similar support response, or no response at all.
    Hell, I could have received a free copy if I had just asked - the money wasn't the point.

    If I had of posted something, it wouldn't have been a thread on WF, but on a domain I control, and likely heavily promoted and syndicated.

    One problem with the Warrior forum policy is that in the age of social media, shutting down a single thread here which in some way is disrespectful to a fellow Warrior will likely cause that problem to explode exponentially, possibly out of control, or just as superb linkbait.
    If a situation gets to that stage, someone would be quite justified in promoting the problem, not just posting about it on a forum where things are relatively well contained, and problems can be extinguished.

    There are social media links on Warrior Forum - guess what? To be part of social media you have to take the rough with the smooth, and how a company handles negative feedback, refunds etc is in many ways more important than the initial sales message.

    Just look at Zappos, I am sure not every pair of shoes fits
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Andy,
      One problem with the Warrior forum policy is that in the age of social media, shutting down a single thread here which in some way is disrespectful to a fellow Warrior will likely cause that problem to explode exponentially, possibly out of control, or just as superb linkbait.
      It doesn't matter whether the person is a member here or not. That kind of thread has no business in this forum.

      As far as discussion of the alleged problem "exploding," that's a bit more dependent on the issue than whether we refuse to let someone discuss it here. If the problem is real and serious, it will be discussed elsewhere anyway. There are a great whopping lot of people in this market who don't even know this place exists, much less use it as their primary outlet for frustration.

      One of the things people fail to notice is the amount of commentary of the nasty kind that comes from anonymous posters. That's much more common on a forum than on many "Web 2.0"/social media sites. At least for the moment...
      guess what? To be part of social media you have to take the rough with the smooth
      You know as well as most people here that I have no problem with things getting "rough." There is a difference between honest roughness and dishonest ambush, which is much of what that thread contained.

      As "social media" sites grow in popularity, you're going to see more demand for at least basic civility, in the sense of holding people responsible for their comments, and not creating sock puppets for the purpose of slander.

      As far as "have to" : No, we don't "have to" allow anything at all. If Allen says that no post can contain two paragraphs beginning with a vowel, that's the rules and that's what we allow or not.

      And on a last note: If this forum isn't more "social" than most so-called "social media" sites, I'll eat my favorite Stetson.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBeard
    Easy solution, only allow posts to the reviews section by authenticated accounts, such as people who have signed up to the War room, or some other method of authentication (e.g. Sitepoint)

    In fact that also is a benefit from both a credibility and legal aspect.

    I am not disputing Allen and the moderators running WF anyway they see fit, but highlighting cause/effect.

    Since WF became open (though before my time, I only date back 4 years) there has always been some level of anonymous commenting, and lots of people in IM operate behind pseudonyms anyway, however by imposing arbitrary penalties based on what someone has to lose, quite often that will encourage anonymity.
    I generally delete anonymous comments on my blogs, and leave comments calling me an F&*%ing Idiot.

    You study human nature. What drove me to glance at the Warrior Forum after 4 days of frustration?
    Whether it was a place of last hope in finding a sensible level of communication about a product/service I had purchased (& that I had come within a hair of promoting), or some kind of flocking instinct in time of danger/distress, doesn't really matter.

    WF was the logical point of congregation for many historical reasons

    Thus a single review thread probably did belong here - they all got derailed, thus totally deleted

    You might not like this comparison, but in some ways it compares to "Tiananmen Square" as far as human nature to congregate, and some might argue the reaction to the congregation.

    Note: Requiring War Room membership would prevent me taking part in review conversations as whilst I was a member of the Warrior Alliance in days gone by, I now avoid memberships/products that could conflict with what I write about. Thus I would be personally excluded, but genuine Warriors would have a place for logical legitimate grievance to be aired.
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