Visa Cracks Down On Forced Continuity...

121 replies
Just got this email from Ryan Lee...

Hey Andrew,
I usually wouldn't interrupt a magazine launch to give
you industry news, but this is BIG.
Visa and Mastercard are now shutting down sites with
free trial offers and forced continuity.
I have the proof and a letter from my merchant account. If
you have any continuity program, please watch this right now:
http://budurl.com/deathofc
Get on and give me your thoughts.
Stay tuned as I get more information.
Rock 'on (but be careful when rocking!)
Ryan
#continuity #shuts #visa
  • Profile picture of the author ArnelRicafranca
    Nice to see a fellow Ryan Lee follower in here. I follow him to and got his email about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author deckman
    I dont own any but I guess that I can see why Visa and Mastercard are now shutting down sites with free trial offers and forced continuity. Even though most state that if they dont cancel with in a certain time period I bet Visa and Mastercard are getting swamped with refunds request.
    I would like to see the reaction to this since it may affect my future plans to own some.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    Good and it's about time.

    I don't care how good a marketing ploy it is, Forced continuity is unethical and underhand. Surprised they haven't done something about it a long time ago

    Kim
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    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

      Good and it's about time.

      I don't care how good a marketing ploy it is, Forced continuity is unethical and underhand. Surprised they haven't done something about it a long time ago

      Kim
      Kim -

      Instead of blaming the "bad marketers" don't you think you have a personal responsibility to check out offers. I mean I know things are a bit different in the UK than in the States but I have to think that if you are applying for something for "free" you should know that there are strings attached and find out what those strings are.

      More importantly, a marketer should disclose - here's the deal - this is a free trial but 30 days from now you will be charged X for Y?

      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        More importantly, a marketer should disclose - here's the deal - this is a free trial but 30 days from now you will be charged X for Y?
        That's key there, Tim. They should. However, on the problematic sites they never did. Or in such a HIDDEN way (see MichaelHiles' post) that the customer could never find it. Or, only after already giving away the CC info... THAT is the real issue.

        If you, as a marketer, hide the information from me and then you blame my "irresponsible" sign-up... that's not good business. (I am not talking about you, Tim, just in general!)
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      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
        I should have made myself clearer, I am of course talking about forced "hidden" continuity. I don't have a problem with the forced continuity model per se if it is of course made clear what the circumstances are of joining etc and there are easy ways of opting out.

        Believe it or not, it took me 3 years to get rid of my AOL subscription a few years ago because of their particular brand of forced continuity. I had to cancel my debit card in the end just to get rid of them. (It's not only IM where this is a problem).

        Yes I agree folks should do their due diligence, Oftentimes they do, and there is still a problem!

        Kim
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        Kim -

        Instead of blaming the "bad marketers" don't you think you have a personal responsibility to check out offers. I mean I know things are a bit different in the UK than in the States but I have to think that if you are applying for something for "free" you should know that there are strings attached and find out what those strings are.

        More importantly, a marketer should disclose - here's the deal - this is a free trial but 30 days from now you will be charged X for Y?

        Tim
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        • Profile picture of the author deckman
          Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post


          Believe it or not, it took me 3 years to get rid of my AOL subscription a few years ago because of their particular brand of forced continuity. I had to cancel my debit card in the end just to get rid of them. (It's not only IM where this is a problem).


          Kim
          I totally agree and I think that the phone companies as well as credit card companies are guilty also. They provide the info but it is so samall and hidden in all the
          legal mumbo jumbo that you are lucky to find it.

          My merchant account that I have for my contracting biz that was initialized back in 1992 has been sold / transferred to different ownership 4-5 times over the years.
          I noticed that they are now charging me a yearly fee. I called and complained that I never agreed to this. The girl told me it was in my contract (it wasnt ) and she would pull the contract and call me back. She calls back a day later telling me that she couldnt find the contract but that this was charged to me last year and I didnt complain so it stands now.

          I agree that I should have read the four pages of fine print they send once a year and I could have opted out.
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          • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
            Wow ... I have no love for scam continuity sites either.

            But does anyone "cheerleading" this move ever read their own bank TOS?

            I guess we'll see how "popular" this move is when the scope of this plan starts to get out of hand - and you are accused of running a "scam" program.

            I wouldn't be so quick to trust the baking industry with policing someone else' poor buying decisions.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

              Wow ... I have no love for scam continuity sites either.

              But does anyone "cheerleading" this move ever read their own bank TOS?

              I guess we'll see how "popular" this move is when the scope of this plan starts to get out of hand - and you are accused of running a "scam" program.

              I wouldn't be so quick to trust the baking industry with policing someone else' poor buying decisions.
              I am a cheerleader when it comes to stopping companies that don't allow their customers to cancel their subscriptions within the TOS.

              I am also a cheerleader when it comes to disallowing marketers to use Oprah, without her permission, as well as FLOGS for marketing.

              I am also a cheerleader for fully seen disclosure. Not the small print in dark colors hidden at the bottom of the page.

              Unfortunately measure had to be put in place. Do you really think it didn't cost VISA and Mastercard to process all those charge backs?

              I don't trust any baking industry unless I am after some delicious bread.
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              • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I am a cheerleader when it comes to companies that don't allow their customers to cancel their subscriptions within the TOS.

                I am also a cheerleader when it comes to disallowing marketers to use Oprah, without her permission, as well as FLOGS for marketing.

                I am also a cheerleader for fully seen disclosure. Not the small print in dark colors hidden at the bottom of the page.
                OK, but what does that have to do with one for profit industry regulating another? That's what the FTC is for.

                An industry BTW that is well known for many of the same abusive tactics (no small print "gotcha's in banking?), and used in the name of profit.

                And yes, Visa/MC is the banking industry.

                Just trying to find a higher level of thinking here.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

                  OK, but what does that have to do with one for profit industry regulating another? That's what the FTC is for.

                  An industry BTW that is well known for many of the same abusive tactics (no small print "gotcha's in banking?), and used in the name of profit.

                  And yes, Visa/MC is the banking industry.

                  Just trying to find a higher level of thinking here.

                  No doubt VISA and MC had a scrupulous history.

                  It still cost them a lot of money to process those chargebacks. It isn't like it didn't cost them any money.

                  It got so bad that the FTC intervened. I can only imagine the amount of money that was lost by VISA and MC during that time.

                  So why shouldn't they avoid any more losses on these types of deals?

                  If you don't like the rules that VISA and MC put forward than don't use them.

                  What would you like to happen? Make VISA and MC accept forced continuity even though it probably cost them money in support for all those chargebacks?

                  Would you like people telling you to sell to serial refunders?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    No doubt VISA and MC had a scrupulous history.

                    It still cost them a lot of money to process those chargebacks. It isn't like it didn't cost them any money.

                    It got so bad that the FTC intervened. I can only imagine the amount of money that was lost by VISA and MC during that time.

                    So why shouldn't they avoid any more losses on these types of deals?

                    If you don't like the rules that VISA and MC put forward than don't use them.

                    What would you like to happen? Make VISA and MC accept forced continuity even though it probably cost them lost of money in support for all those chargebacks?

                    Would you like people telling you to sell to serial refunders?
                    Fair enough - but don't say I didn't warn you.

                    You can count on banks to protect their own bottom line - just like we should for ourselves.

                    Once they start deciding which offers are scams or not, which sites are scams or not - then we'll see.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

                      Fair enough - but don't say I didn't warn you.

                      You can count on banks to protect their own bottom line - just like we should for ourselves.

                      Once they start deciding which offers are scams or not, which sites are scams or not - then we'll see.
                      It has always been that way.

                      That is until the regulations stop them. I highly doubt they made this decision to protect their customers. They are doing it to protect their bottom line.

                      The same thing I would do if it was my business. If it impacts my business than I will have to figure out a way around it.

                      I really believe there is nothing to worry about if you fully disclose your terms and allow your customers to refund without any hassles. I don't really get into the forced continuity anyways.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
                        If the company is not making it clear that you are getting this for free but the next one cost you or make it impossible to cancel your membership, agreement, etc then that is totally wrong and should be stopped immediately.

                        You may win in the short run, but in the long run you stand to be on the wrong side of the law and as a result out lots and lots of money, credibility, etc.

                        Tim
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

                          If the company is not making it clear that you are getting this for free but the next one cost you or make it impossible to cancel your membership, agreement, etc then that is totally wrong and should be stopped immediately.

                          You may win in the short run, but in the long run you stand to be on the wrong side of the law and as a result out lots and lots of money, credibility, etc.

                          Tim
                          Unfortunately, that happened in a lot in rebill cpa offers. People were getting hit for $80 before they even got their trial product.

                          People complained they couldn't cancel within the time allotment of the terms.

                          Not only that but the way some affiliates marketed those rebill offers was fraudulent at best.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ronr
                      I have a site with forced continuity.

                      Want to know how many chargebacks I received last year?

                      It's an ebook offer with bonus 30 day bonus membership. I disclose several different places that if they don't cancel they are charged a monthly amount. When it gets close to rebilling they receive an email reminder.

                      The answer. I think I received 1 chargeback last year.The year before I received 2, I think. In each case I told the merchant the offer with the disclosers and I won each time.

                      Hidden forced continuity or continuty that is hard to cancel is just plain wrong. However if you do it the whitehat way it works fine and will not cause you any problems.

                      Ron
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post


                    It still cost them a lot of money to process those chargebacks. It isn't like it didn't cost them any money.
                    Interesting - I always thought those chargebacks were paid for by either the consumer or the merchant (depending on who won). In fact, processing those chargebacks seemed like a real money-maker for them. Guess not?

                    Ironically, the cc companies lose way more money by the same consumers they try to protect when they stop making their payments and file for bankruptcy...

                    I agree with protecting consumers. But I really think that changing the terms of their own service, then shutting down the merchants who are now "violating their terms" without so much as a "by your leave" and no recourse is, well, pretty ****ty. And typical of a large company like this.

                    Many of these marketers we know getting slapped are not scammers. They may be aggressive marketers, but if they were told "You got 30 days to change all this or we shut you down", I can tell you the honest ones would change.

                    There are no winners on this one.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                      Interesting - I always thought those chargebacks were paid for by either the consumer or the merchant (depending on who won). In fact, processing those chargebacks seemed like a real money-maker for them. Guess not?
                      Hopefully it pays for all the customer support. Weren't we talking about this in the other thread. hehe

                      It is a shame that it ended up like this. Hopefully a better solution will come out once the dust settles.
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                • Profile picture of the author tomw
                  Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

                  Just trying to find a higher level of thinking here.
                  Hi Eric,

                  Long time no speak.

                  Surely the highest level of thinking is a customer's right to full transparency of transaction, without which there can be no concept of value applied to it.

                  As such, the customer cannot be expected to make an informed choice and therefore "be responsible for their own buying decisions," in such cases.

                  Tom
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                  • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
                    Originally Posted by tomw View Post

                    Hi Eric,

                    Long time no speak.

                    Surely the highest level of thinking is a customer's right to full transparency of transaction, without which there can be no concept of value applied to it.

                    As such, the customer cannot be expected to make an informed choice and therefore "be responsible for their own buying decisions," in such cases.

                    Tom
                    Hi Tom,

                    Yep, it's been awhile ...

                    If a merchant takes more money from you then you agreed, it is a crime.

                    No different then if the CC# was stolen, but we have law enforcement for that.

                    Do the banks work as hard to protect us in those situations?

                    Not usually, and not without a lot of haggling on our part.

                    Yes, I agree transparency is needed, unfortunately I don't see that type of transparency in the very same organizations we seek to protect us from unscrupulous merchants.

                    PP has many of these very same policies in place, and they often ruin a persons business - without cause or explanation.

                    I don't sell this stuff, and I'm not defending the scam sites ...

                    But how often does sweeping regulation only effect the criminals?
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                    • Profile picture of the author tomw
                      Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

                      If a merchant takes more money from you then you agreed, it is a crime.

                      snip
                      I agree with everything you said about the absence of transparency on the part of the institutions we expect to protect us. Also, like you, I'm scratching my head here trying to figure out how they plan to quantify and discriminate between transactions and police the whole thing as well as what kind of sanctions or penalties will be applied to offenders.

                      But banks would argue that this is a separate issue to the treatment of consumers by underhand marketing practices, despite it being related and smacking of double standards and hypocrisy.

                      To me, it seems a natural symptom of the growing squeeze on, shall we say, the "grey economy." Too many are making too much and getting away with it. All of the relevant institutions have already or are beginning to wise up and are now going after their cut.

                      You're also right, sweeping regulations of this kind very often rarely only penalise those for whom they where created as those determined enough always find a way around the system.

                      I guess those into continuity of any kind just have to cover their butts and hope for the best.

                      Tom
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              • Profile picture of the author tomw
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I don't trust any baking industry unless I am after some delicious bread.
                I don't trust any of them. They got me hooked and going cold turkey for an almond croissant every morning with my coffee...damn you evil purveyors of sweet, crispy, nutty, creamy, custardy loveliness!

                Tom
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by tomw View Post

                  I don't trust any of them. They got me hooked and going cold turkey for an almond croissant every morning with my coffee...damn you evil purveyors of sweet, crispy, nutty, creamy, custardy loveliness!

                  Tom
                  Krispy Creme Continuity program was the worst.
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            • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
              Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

              I wouldn't be so quick to trust the baking industry with policing someone else' poor buying decisions.
              I'm not so sure...

              Look what the cooking industry has done with Spam.

              You can almost eat that crap, now.

              If the baking industry can rise to the occasion, I think it's the yeast they can do.

              Know what I mean?

              KJ

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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by Killer Joe View Post

                I'm not so sure...

                Look what the cooking industry has done with Spam.

                You can almost eat that crap, now.

                If the baking industry can rise to the occasion, I think it's the yeast they can do.

                Know what I mean?

                KJ


                Yeah, don't forget it's your dough after all.

                As in all other aspects of life it pays to use your loaf before you fork over any bread.
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                • Profile picture of the author CMCarlin
                  This effects more than internet marketing. I'm in the direct response industry (on the call center side of things) and we've recently stopped taking mastercard for our free trial offer product campaigns.

                  This is BIG. Really Big.
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  • Profile picture of the author deckman
    Not as bad as it seems.

    "Terms should be disclosed in a conspicuous manner, clearly placed and labeled on websites in a location that indicates the importance and relevance to the transaction. Fonts and colors must be easy to view."

    "Material terms must be disclosed prior to completion of the transaction and before a financial obligation is incurred by the consumer."

    "Customers must provide affirmative consent to any offer, examples include a mandatory "I Agree..." statement checkbox, where the customer is acknowledging the Terms and Conditions of the offer and consents to be entered into continuity program as a result of completing the transaction. Pre-checked boxes do not qualify as affirmative consent."

    "Merchants must not discourage or make difficult in any way the disclosed cancellation procedures and all cancellation requests must be honored in accordance with the stated terms of the transaction. "

    Transparency is the key ! If transparency is your normal modus operandi then this should not be a problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    I think this could be grossly misunderstood just like the whole FTC bore.

    Visa are simply cracking down on sneaky, deceptive marketing that goes out of their way to trick the person into continuity, hence them filing a complaint or chargeback once their card gets billed.

    Here's a good article on it:

    Debit Cards on the Internet — Safer Thanks to Move by Visa

    Basically, just make it clear of your intentions, and make sure you don't say it's "free" when actually, it's not free at all. You must also exchange tangeable goods for money received.

    Just another legal requirement, not a banning of the marketing method at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author StillHill
    Just like all the Google slaps, there will be innocent victims. Too bad the bad apples runined the whole lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    Thanks for the heads up. Very interesting and I'll be looking into this further to see exactly what steps Visa and Mastercard intend to take. Sounds like they are specifically targeting certain types of practices rather than free trial offers and forced continuity per se. After all, I pay a lot of things on 'forced continuity' via credit card - from child care fees to gym memberships to various other services.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      I would like to see them enforce this, without arbitrarily banning all subscription and continual type payments.

      It looks like this is a money saving move because of the deluge of customer service requests.

      Visa/MC would become a defacto FTC type regulator, and investigator - and I don't see this surviving serious court challenges.

      The best they can do is deny merchant ability for targeted sites and products.

      People are still ultimately responsible for their own buying decisions.
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      • Profile picture of the author mloveridge17
        Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

        I would like to see them enforce this, without arbitrarily banning all subscription and continual type payments.

        It looks like this is a money saving move because of the deluge of customer service requests.

        Visa/MC would become a defacto FTC type regulator, and investigator - and I don't see this surviving serious court challenges.

        The best they can do is deny merchant ability for targeted sites and products.

        People are still ultimately responsible for their own buying decisions.
        From what I've seen, this is exactly what they are doing.... a broad sweep of shutting down all continuity offers. It's a bloodbath out there and A LOT of your favorite marketers are being impacted, even the ones who are entirely on the up and up.

        The thing that irks me is that they sent out a warning letter a day before they started shutting down accounts... a day! That's no warning at all. It's like saying "Run!" as the Tidal Wave crashes down on you. But it's that lack of warning that might open the door for a class action lawsuit against MC/Visa.
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  • Profile picture of the author Profit-smart
    Its about friggin time.

    If they did this say, a year ago we might not have the new FTC regulations coming into play now.


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    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      I love how people are passing off PERSONAL Responsibility of the buyers. I don't have a forced site, hell I don't even have anything but a $7 membership site but I still laugh at people who rely on others to protect them from themselves.

      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        I love how people are passing off PERSONAL Responsibility of the buyers. I don't have a forced site, hell I don't even have anything but a $7 membership site but I still laugh at people who rely on others to protect them from themselves.

        Tim
        I understand what your saying, Tim. I am sure there where people that didn't read the terms before purchasing.

        But...

        I think the problem comes from terms not being disclosed properly. I have seen it on television as well. You know the small print that shows for a second before the commercial ends.

        Forget the disclosure portion for a second. A few companies have also made it next to impossible for their customers to cancel their subscriptions even when they adhered to all the terms.

        I truly believe this is a good thing that happened. Companies that do what they say should have a opportunity after all is said and done.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Shouldn't this be more accurately called "Visa shuts down HIDDEN forced continuity"?

    If you disclose your deal, and then make yourself accessible and responsive to cancellation requests, who cares?

    Non issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author deckman
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Shouldn't this be more accurately called "Visa shuts down HIDDEN forced continuity"?
      Well said.
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    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      I wonder if they'll let me claw-back all those fees I've paid and finally allow me to afford that moped I've always dreamed about...:rolleyes:

      I'm keeping my good eye peeled on this one...

      KJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
      Exactly.

      Can you imagine what would happen to NetFlix or Columbia House if this were true?


      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Shouldn't this be more accurately called "Visa shuts down HIDDEN forced continuity"?

      If you disclose your deal, and then make yourself accessible and responsive to cancellation requests, who cares?

      Non issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author mloveridge17
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Shouldn't this be more accurately called "Visa shuts down HIDDEN forced continuity"?

      If you disclose your deal, and then make yourself accessible and responsive to cancellation requests, who cares?

      Non issue.
      Not true at all. They are shutting down ANY forced continuity (and even regular continuity from what I've seen), starting with the big guys. Even the offers that have Full Disclosure multiple times on the Sales Letter as well as on the Checkout page - gone. There's no telling where it will stop. Even that $7/month membership might get shut down, unless it's going through PayPal of course.
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      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
        Originally Posted by mloveridge17 View Post

        Not true at all. They are shutting down ANY forced continuity (and even regular continuity from what I've seen), starting with the big guys. Even the offers that have Full Disclosure multiple times on the Sales Letter as well as on the Checkout page - gone. There's no telling where it will stop. Even that $7/month membership might get shut down, unless it's going through PayPal of course.
        As I understand this after reading many things on it they are targeting the forced continuity for obvious reasons and the hidden also for obvious reasons I am unaware of it effecting regular membersites can you please give a link so I can read that as well
        -WD
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by mloveridge17 View Post

        Not true at all. They are shutting down ANY forced continuity (and even regular continuity from what I've seen), starting with the big guys. Even the offers that have Full Disclosure multiple times on the Sales Letter as well as on the Checkout page - gone. There's no telling where it will stop. Even that $7/month membership might get shut down, unless it's going through PayPal of course.

        Seems like, from what I have been reading, you can have continuity as long as it is something that is NOT forced and NOT pre-checked. The customer MUST OPT IN. And I believe they are now going to require some sort of confirmation check box to agree to the terms (as if that will make consumers read them...har).

        You also MUST have the starting price the same as the recurring price (as in, no free or one dollar offers).

        And they will be looking at the TOS on the order and sales pages closely.

        So far, that's what I know. Subject to change
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        • Profile picture of the author mloveridge17
          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          You also MUST have the starting price the same as the recurring price (as in, no free or one dollar offers).
          That's a piece that I hadn't heard, but makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, the thing they aren't saying is that you must have made all these corrections 3 to 6 months ago because you certainly won't have any time to change it now. You'll just get your account banned and boom, you're out of business and all your employees are on unemployment overnight.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Eljisr
    Does anybody have more info regarding the subject? I will soon start a continuity program, and part of my conversion strategy was based on a $1 trial offer for 14 days and then begin billing the regular monthly fee. Is this still possible?
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    • Profile picture of the author deckman
      Originally Posted by Chad Eljisr View Post

      Does anybody have more info regarding the subject? I will soon start a continuity program, and part of my conversion strategy was based on a $1 trial offer for 14 days and then begin billing the regular monthly fee. Is this still possible?
      Just follow some of the links provided on this thread and you will realize that as long as transparency is the norm for your operations then you should be fine.
      The OP's title should have read a little different.
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    • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
      Originally Posted by Chad Eljisr View Post

      Does anybody have more info regarding the subject? I will soon start a continuity program, and part of my conversion strategy was based on a $1 trial offer for 14 days and then begin billing the regular monthly fee. Is this still possible?
      I am going to take a punch at this, my not being a lawyer, I'll just give an opinion.

      The problem is not people like Mike Filsame, an IM who uses forced continuity and provides clear and easily accessible information on how to unsubscribe, but with those who hide their unsubscribe information and bleed members who are trying to unsubscribe.

      I had an experience about a year ago. I subscribed to several sites which offered free or low-priced trial entries with "you can cancel anytime" clauses. I joined four or five within a day or two to check out their material. As I received their confirming emails, I moved them to a safe place and when the time came, I was able to look them up and unsubscribe. All but one. It was 'free' for 30 days and then billed $15 per month.

      When I joined, it showed a phone number in the TOS I agreed to when I paid to use to cancel. When I canceled the other subscriptions, all was well, except for this site did not even have an unsubscribe link anywhere in it. I had to wait until the card was billed and found the charge. Then it was someone's initials that weren't related to the site. I had to have my bank request the contact information from the CC. When I finally got it, I called the number and they cancelled the subscription and very politely told me the charges would be reversed at the next billing date, or something to that effect. I waited and no refund. I called again and they said they would reverse it within the next 5 business days. It wasn't reversed so when I called back, they told me the TOS said they don't make refunds. When I went to the bank to reverse the charges, I was informed it was one week past the period I could do so.

      $15 lesson for me, I'll bet this new action by V/MC just cost them a whole lot more.

      The reason I mentioned Filsame was because he ran a $7.00 special for the first month of his program. There were numerous places he mentioned how to unsubscribe. He even had a video explaining not only how to unsubscribe, but why reversing the charges on your card would not stop the continuity and end up costing you about $100 more because he would have to prove that the charges were legit and you would have to pay for that time. When I decided to cancel, it was easy to find the information with the phone number and the staff was very cooperative. It went as smooth as silk.

      As for continuity programs, I don't remember which, but the one I liked best actually had you setup your auto payments thru PayPal. Then when you wanted to unsubscribe, you told PP to cancel the monthly payments.

      Customer Controlled Continuity. I like that one.
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      • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
        Originally Posted by N4PGW View Post

        The reason I mentioned Filsame was because he ran a $7.00 special for the first month of his program. There were numerous places he mentioned how to unsubscribe. He even had a video explaining not only how to unsubscribe, but why reversing the charges on your card would not stop the continuity and end up costing you about $100 more because he would have to prove that the charges were legit and you would have to pay for that time. When I decided to cancel, it was easy to find the information with the phone number and the staff was very cooperative. It went as smooth as silk.
        You think this is ok?
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        • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
          Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

          You think this is ok?
          Yes, but you have to see the presentation to understand.

          Mike posted a video about it, put it in writing several places. You have have to be very careless to miss it. It was no secret and he was very upfront about it.

          When Mike has a chargeback, the CC requires proof of authority. He has to pay someone to dig it up and contact the clearing house and there are charges against him from the clearing house.

          It is like the people who sign up with double-opt in for an email list and them complain about spam from the vender, totally ignoring the click to quit option. Surely you are part of Aweber or its competitor for that very reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    I only popped in here to reply to a few PMs, but if genuine this news has *really* made my day!

    Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    This is pertaining to hidden and forced continuity I received a number of emails today. It is not however for any continuity such as a membersite with pricing up front.

    This is good news for us membersite owners

    The crap that has been flung at the world of im is finally starting to wash away unethical bull#### tactics are still going to be used however. now there is something real that can be done about it aside from the FTC the cc comanies can act Immediately
    YAY!
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Nothing in business should be hidden. If your going to charge someone x amount of dollars they need to know that. If your not going to release them they need to know that too. Why don't they? well people would not be so quick to sign up now would they? It all comes down to integrity before profit. Transparency before shadiness. Simple ethical business practices is all it boils down to. this indeed is a very good thing. as Thomas mentioned above .
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    WONDERFUL!

    I don't mind forced continuity programs, but the trickery some use is uncalled for.

    Mike Filsame did the best job of revealing what the charges would be,when they would be charged and how to stop the charges! When I called his staff was polite and cooperative.

    Another program was cancelled, but billed the first month anyway. Then they said they would refund, but didn't. Then they said they would but it might take x weeks. By then it was out of the CC terms and I couldn't reverse the charges.

    Other marketers tell how easy it is to cancel as you are buying the program, but unless you go thru the process of paying for it again, you won't find those instructions.

    I also hope it hits the 'discount' liars. They tell you that you can have the full priviliges of their program for only a fraction of the cost and then for monthly payments. However, when you pay, you only get a small portion of the program 'unlocked' until you make your next month's payment. Then by the time you get the full program, you paid an extra month's payment.

    Put them out of business. Let honest marketers make an honest living without being tagged along with the scammers.

    [end rant]

    I wonder if this will affect Video Professor, my insurance company and my bank who always send 'checks' or other such nonsense that trigger a monthly fee against my card.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    One thing I just found out this is also pertaining to the "free plus shipping" LOL

    @Thomas.

    You and I are on the same page in regards to that garbage . I am a cheerleader for this stuff to be stopped and I frequently make that known. Glad to see others standing on the same platform.
    Thanks
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    the comments saying forced continuity is a scam, unethical and whatnot are COMPLETE NONSENSE.

    and you call yourselves marketers? give me a break.

    how in the world can you say that and actually believe it?

    gym memberships are ALL forced continuity, are they all scams?

    gunthy renker uses forced continuity, they're a multibillion dollar company, are they scams too?

    I could go on and on here...

    Eben pagan for example, every one of his DYD products comes with forced continuity, is he a scammer?

    no.

    You forget, the customer can EASILY say no to the offer. If they don't want the offer, they don't have to get it.

    No one is forcing a customer to take a forced continuity offer. The customer can EASILY call/email support to cancel.

    Now, in the situations where you do call/email to cancel and they don't, that has NOTHING to do with forced continuity, thats just flat out scamming people.

    i run a cpa style supplement offer.... we do our own support in house and refund/cancel ANYONE who asks.... we don't run any monkey business, plus you don't want those types of relationships with your customers... you want happy ones right?

    99% of the calls we get to cancel/complain, the customer NEVER read anything on the site... and we make it very clear its an autoship in several locations on the offer page AND on the order page.

    the visitors only see free trial and think they're getting something for free.... they see free and thats all they notice. we walk them through the site and they are like... i didn't read that, or see it.

    so the consumer is largely at fault as well.... look, its easy to play victim, but YOU are the one taking the offer, its your responsibility to know what you're getting.

    Its no different than buying a car or house or whatnot... you gotta read what you're getting.

    but the scammers need to get whats coming to them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post


      You forget, the customer can EASILY say no to the offer. If they don't want the offer, they don't have to get it.

      No one is forcing a customer to take a forced continuity offer. The customer can EASILY call/email support to cancel.
      I don't think forced continuity is a scam in itself. It is how it is promoted and how the terms are disclosed that would make it a scam.

      Can the customer easily cancel? Strange because I heard otherwise on a lot of cpa rebill offers.

      Makes you wonder why the FTC got involved if it was that easy to cancel. Heck why would VISA and MC get all worked up?

      BTW, my gym is not forced continuity.

      I do agree with what you said. There is a reason for what has happened. It is unfortunate for the companies that have been actively demonstrating ethical continuity programs.
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        BTW, my gym is not forced continuity.
        Hey Thomas, Is this the one?



        Tom
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          Hey Thomas, Is this the one?



          Tom
          HAHA, I love to feel the burn.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I had a big player in here almost get me w/ a hidden continuity plan. The sad part is I was right on the order page to put in my info on a high priced piece of software they were selling. I actually wanted to buy the software, however they added a continuity program to the deal right at the last minute on the order page, without an option to opt out of the continuity part.

    Needless to say, I will not look at another offer this person has no matter how good it is. There's no way I can trust that this person won't try to stiff me w/ a hidden extra charge again.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Good point Gary. sorry you experienced it but this is exactly why I stand against that stuff. It inevitably sends a ripple effect causing feelings like you experienced and the damage to ones reputation.

    Thanks for sharing that.
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author silverbax
    This move by MasterCard and VISA isn't just targeting the online CPA scammers and the guys who think it's okay to trick your customers. It's going after guys like FreeCreditReport.com, who aren't giving away a free credit report at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author HowToMakeAWebsite
      I have been working on a continuity site for some time this is good to know. I wonder how they would even know?
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    • Profile picture of the author tboneman
      It appears most of the comments in this thread miss the point. My take on what Visa/MC are cracking down on are the scammers who say, "get our $79 widget for FREE, just pay the $2.89 postage. Take 14 days to decide if you want to keep it, and if not, send it back, no questions asked."

      Except that 3 days after you place an order, they debit your credit card for $79, then leave it to you to fight the system to get your money back, and cancel the scammer's right to debit your CC every month from this day forward.

      This is what Visa/MC are cracking down on, and rightly so. Google has done the same thing with companies using Google's name to front the exact same scheme.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by tboneman View Post

        It appears most of the comments in this thread miss the point. My take on what Visa/MC are cracking down on are the scammers who say, "get our $79 widget for FREE, just pay the $2.89 postage. Take 14 days to decide if you want to keep it, and if not, send it back, no questions asked."

        Except that 3 days after you place an order, they debit your credit card for $79, then leave it to you to fight the system to get your money back, and cancel the scammer's right to debit your CC every month from this day forward.

        This is what Visa/MC are cracking down on, and rightly so. Google has done the same thing with companies using Google's name to front the exact same scheme.

        What you are describing may well have been the catalyst. But you are off base on one thing...

        Visa/MC are cracking down on ANYONE who:

        - Has a free + shipping offer
        - Continuity program that has to be UNchecked if the consumer doesn't want it.
        - Trial offers
        - Membership sites are being scrutinized

        And although I KNOW there are unscrupulous people out there, the people I know in the IM niche are not - and they are being shut down without warning for having on their sites what I describe above.

        Continuity is still allowed. You just gotta be VERY sure you comply with these new rules.

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian Dayton
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas W
            Originally Posted by Brian Dayton View Post

            This covers 90% of continuity sites.

            Visa/Mastercard are full of sh** if they think ANY merchants will get many sign ups if they can't offer trial periods for a month with a cheaper price.

            Magazine publishers do it all the time, cheap for the first month then it reverts to the standard monthly rebill price.

            The same with WEBHOSTING and countless others.

            ALL OF THESE OFFER TRIAL MONTHS AT A LOWER COST TO INCREASE SIGN-UPS.

            If you offer the first month at the same cost as the standard price - GAME OVER, ESPECIALLY FOR THE CPA OFFERS.

            What are the conversion rates going to be when the FREE TRIAL suddenly becomes a $39 offer?

            Forget the 5% conversion rates......conversion rate will be 0.5% TOPS with mass traffic.

            If someone makes me an offer for a $27, $47 or $97 per month club/membership I'll be happy to try it out if the first trial month is $1, $5 etc

            But if there is no trial month, no chance I will risk it and neither will countless others.

            If Visa/Mastercard do decide to enforce this nonsense, a class action lawsuit is probably going to be the end result.

            Because the big publishers offering magazines, webhosts and Internet Service Providers do trial offers all the time usually for the first month and they would go out of business if they had to stop. Period.

            Can't be one rule for some, and different rules for others.

            I don't think Visa/MC will bite the hand that feeds them. Even my own CC company calls me to offer free trials even a free year ie free credit protection, free memberships. These credit card companies would probably leverage them to halt that.

            American Express, Discover would probably get more business though
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    • Profile picture of the author johnng
      If it clearly stated that there is a continuity program to follow, I have no problem with that!
      So the credit card companies are doing the right thing in my opinion. I am absolutely disgusted where some marketers hide it in fine prints so that the first you know of your spending is when you check your statement.
      Slightly off topic but another practice upset me. I was with the SuccessUniversity MLM. When it was sold to some Travel Company, I was so disgusted by their manipulation to delay my membership cancellation. I first had to Email a department to cancel my membership after searching it high and low for where to cancel. Then I received a reply which told me I have to phone such such number. I don't know what they would have gained by delaying this way except pissing me off and tell me it was not a good company and give MLM company a bad bad name.
      Thanks for the info, useful to know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph.
    I think continuity is a good business model and it's fine to use it - as long as you state the terms.

    Something simple like "you will get billed XX$ per month after your trial ends unless you cancel before" will probably save everyone - vendors, customers and credit card companies - a lot of trouble
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    Seems simple to me for those that offer the free trial continuity. Instead of auto charging at the end of the trial cut the user off from your content, members area what have you and offer a payment button at the end of the trial.

    If they want to continue then THEY the consumer decides that. If not, great, you just saved hassle of having to do a refund / cancel.

    Arguement to that is lost revenue etc.. from those that do not go through the process of cancelling BUT I think that is the deal here with the FTC and Visa / MC. The consumer isn't canceling with the merchant OR they gave up trying to and just go directly to their credit card and report to attorney generals, FTC etc...

    You can be above board doing any of the methods but the bad eggs out there have caused such a backlash that everyone is being impacted.

    - T
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    thomas.

    the ones that weren't canceling or didn't disclose anywhere visible on the page what the deal was are scammers, plain and simple.

    Not all the cpa offers are however...

    I've seen cpa type offers which were RTF's (risk free trials) for like $7 or so, then rebill in 14 for i think, $79.... ok thats high, but whatever.

    here's where it gets interesting...

    They automatically add you to a $9.95 continuity... AND a $4.95 continuity.... which were very cleverly not easy to see unless you REALLY looked.

    THAT IS SKETCHY.

    Thats different than having a forced continuity model. Look at proactive, thats a HUGE forced continuity model.

    If you want to cancel, you can call them and thats it.

    These scammers weren't doing this, thats like you're flat out stealing from people.

    Not cool at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author entry
    Originally Posted by Matt Peters View Post

    Just got this email from Ryan Lee...

    Hey Andrew,
    I usually wouldn't interrupt a magazine launch to give
    you industry news, but this is BIG.
    Visa and Mastercard are now shutting down sites with
    free trial offers and forced continuity.
    I have the proof and a letter from my merchant account. If
    you have any continuity program, please watch this right now:
    http://budurl.com/deathofc
    Get on and give me your thoughts.
    Stay tuned as I get more information.
    Rock 'on (but be careful when rocking!)
    Ryan
    If you were going to Start a membership site,

    does this affect membership sites in any other way? (besides Stopping the forced free continuity), but does it affect membership sites in any other ways
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    • Profile picture of the author Burtgummer
      It's about time!

      Maybe companies can actually make a good, quality product that people will like so they don't need to use a continuity charge system. Their customers will actually like the product so much that they themselves choose to pay for more of the product.

      What a concept!

      Hopefully half the offers from CPA networks won't be highly searched with the term 'scam' after them. Know what I mean? Type in Premium White Pro into google, and "Premium White Pro Scam" comes up as a suggestion......
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by entry View Post

      If you were going to Start a membership site,

      does this affect membership sites in any other way? (besides Stopping the forced free continuity), but does it affect membership sites in any other ways

      No this is not referring to membership sites. forced continuity is where you can receive gift x if you sign up now for site x

      It is a conditional gift =forcing them to sign up to the continuity program in order to receive said gift.

      Hidden continuity is where you have a fee like a 1$ trial that also has a charge of say 47 to be recurred monthly but they don't see it in the offer it is "hidden" somehow not plain and not clear.
      =Disgusting tactic.

      If you are to start a membersite. Make sure you have your pricing up front.
      have your disclaimer clearly visible not hidden with a #cccccc font.
      Be honest and you will have nothing to worry about not legal advice I am not a lawyer just a site owner I am not worried about this it is really a positive thing for us owners
      -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    I am on one list where I have received at least 25 different product offers since Christmas that start with "Today I have great gift for you. Because you are subscriber in good standing you get _________ with Master Resell Rights for free."

    The first $97 charge is waived and and then the cost is $97 per month after that.

    Can you imagine if someone signs up for even five of those offers and doesn't remember or realize he needs to cancel? Pity the info-addict who buys into all 25!
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      I am on one list where I have received at least 25 different product offers since Christmas that start with "Today I have great gift for you. Because you are subscriber in good standing you get _________ with Master Resell Rights for free."

      The first $97 charge is waived and and then the cost is $97 per month after that.

      Can you imagine if someone signs up for even five of those offers and doesn't remember or realize he needs to cancel? Pity the info-addict who buys into all 25!
      The person who signs up to all of those, or who doesn't remember, or realize he/she needs to cancel is a moron ...

      And, to be honest, that person shouldn't have the power to ruin things for legitimate business owners because they're too dumb, or too lazy, to have read the terms that, based on what you're saying here, seem to have been pretty clearly defined.

      They're also hurting consumers who might no longer be able to get access to products that would have otherwise come with a VERY high price tag, had it not been an option to offer a continuity option.

      I know that most people are on the "continuity is evil" bandwagon ... but I'm on the, "stupid customers are evil" bandwagon.

      And yes, I realize that there are PLENTY of businesses that abused continuity, and that's what we may all end up paying the price for ... stupid people, and abusive companies.

      Isn't it wonderful that we all get to pay the price for what other people did?

      Gary Ambrose
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      I am on one list where I have received at least 25 different product offers since Christmas that start with "Today I have great gift for you. Because you are subscriber in good standing you get _________ with Master Resell Rights for free."

      The first $97 charge is waived and and then the cost is $97 per month after that.

      Can you imagine if someone signs up for even five of those offers and doesn't remember or realize he needs to cancel? Pity the info-addict who buys into all 25!
      If someone buys something and doesn't remember or "realize" the terms, they should
      have their purchasing privileges revoked.

      Sure there are plenty of scammers that get over on unsuspecting consumers, but in many cases it's ignorance on the consumer's part that causes these issues in the first place.

      The customer is always right. But that doesn't mean they are always smart.

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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      For those of you arguing about for profit companies regulating other for profit companies, i.e.; banks regulating marketers, they're not doing any such thing at all.

      They're simply tightening up their terms of use in regards to what is in fact a fraudulent business activity - Hidden Forced Continuity.
      Who decides what is Hidden ?

      TOS on another page?

      Fonts too small?

      Someone simply too dense to understand the TOS?

      Outright fraud is another matter, and already addressed.

      How much do you think this "crackdown" is going to cost in additional merchant fees?

      The term Hidden is the issue, how will they determine, and enforce this compliance?
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      • Profile picture of the author JeffLam
        Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

        Who decides what is Hidden ?

        TOS on another page?

        Fonts too small?

        Someone simply too dense to understand the TOS?

        Outright fraud is another matter, and already addressed.

        How much do you think this "crackdown" is going to cost in additional merchant fees?

        The term Hidden is the issue, how will they determine, and enforce this compliance?
        And that is where the law (FTC?) steps in.

        The law/FTC SHOULD and WILL define the term, 'hidden', provided they even state the word 'hidden' in their rules and guidelines.

        And if you use similar cases of ambiguous terms to 'hidden', you will see that the law defines many such terms to a great extent, and then some more.

        The rest will have the judge using common sense to decide.

        For example, if the TOS is hard or difficult to read, like many physical marketing posters, etc, then the law has the right to say that the marketing of the poster has made it difficult/inconvenient for the customer to read the TOS and can hence be considered a 'hidden' TOS.

        On the other hand, if the marketer were to blatantly print the text in BOLD and HUGE, even POINTING the customer to read the TOS, then it is obviously not a valid excuse for the customer to claim ignorance because the TOS is hidden.

        Such cases are very similar to many real life law suits. Who defines morality? What defines the right and wrong? We have a judge because of such cases: to have a human logical and rational brain think and use common sense to define such situations where written guidelines and rules cannot pinpoint.
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  • Profile picture of the author JeffLam
    I think the problem is not with forced continuity either..it's more to be hidden continuity.

    Like what Ryan Lee said: tell your prospects and customers 15 times that there is continuity involved, and this wouldn't be so much of an issue anymore.

    Alternatively, take the bold move! Take a look at controversial file sharing site rapidshare.

    They claim their goal is to create a pool of clients that are committed and loyal to their services. What did they do?

    They outrightly tell them that they will NOT charge them automatically monthly, and instead, requests for them to extend their account every month.

    THAT is a really good business strategy and marketing strategy indeed to show their confidence in quality.

    Of course, their service is still, no doubt, controversial with the outrightward stepping on piracy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Iser
    I once saw a CPA Manberry RFT with quad stack continuity, and additional continuity stacks in it's upsells to other offers.

    It was like credit card rape.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by Steve Iser View Post

      I once saw a CPA Manberry RFT with quad stack continuity, and additional continuity stacks in it's upsells to other offers.

      It was like credit card rape.
      I think about 4 people on the forum might have understood what you just said ...

      G
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  • Profile picture of the author Kishor Karsan
    Hi

    It really ticks me off that us marketers get the blame for "ripping people off"...
    Some marketers are good, honest and hardworking,
    its the other marketers that don't really care about the service they provide and just want peoples money

    Basically, if you have a forced continuity program then please clearly state it on your sales page, that way you are covering yourself and not being accused of providing false information and ripping people off

    I have had consumers who get so excited about what is actually the FREE gift, they go really crazy and go for the offer and then when their cc is charged they blame us marketers for ripping them off....

    I always think its best practice to put your prices and offers up front, so they know what they will be getting or paying for.

    Kish
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  • Profile picture of the author jtormey
    I was offering some **** "Free Trial Offers" on my blog
    Colon Health Cleanse

    I would get comments on my blog from people asking me stop billing them. The companies just keep sending product and billing month after month.

    The credit card companies were probably losing money having to manually stop the forced continuity.

    I've pulled most or all of the offers because I got so many complaints. I can't imagine how many Visa/Mastercard got.

    How can they "crack down"? If everything is clearly disclosed, they cannot stop a legal transaction. More disclosure is on the way!
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    Gary, you're dead on right with the comments....

    steve's talking about signing up to 1, that has hidden continuity with 4 programs then upsells with more continuity.... thats bad man.

    i heard something like over 35,000 complaints.... and i wont address the 'continuity is evil' comments because they are just ignorant and dumb.

    people not being able to cancel has NOTHING to do with being in continuity, it has EVERYTHING to do with scam artists blatantly stealing money from people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taylor French
    The thing that really makes me angry about forced continuity is when you can sign up instantly online to be enrolled in the program, but they make you call or send mail to cancel it.

    THAT is serious deception. If they can make it that easy to join it, they can make it that easy to cancel it. But they don't, because they hope people will be too lazy to jump through the hoops and just keep the subscription.

    When it becomes easier to initiate a chargeback than to cancel the recurring transaction, consumers will often take the easier route.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    if you are running a free trial offer, your merchant account will get shut down.... ours was just flagged.

    seems like the RFT model is under attack.

    we're trying to see what they want to get compliant, but it seems like no one can tell you whats up yet.

    we're in limbo.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelLofton
      Hey All... it's been awhile since I've communicated. At least there remains a group of 'true' marketers and not many whiners in this forum (thread).

      This subject is frying my brain...

      (herein lies my subjective input)

      As noted from another blog post mention... "Does this mean that now I can get the swim suit issue without taking an entire year of Sports Illustrated? (et.al.)"

      Kidding aside...
      Let's face it, this does take place off-line and the on-line versions have their variables, indeed. I'd bet a good deal of us had taken up the $7.95 cd s&h offers, only to jam in 30 free days of continuity review, thereafter to reach the merchant account's desk just in time to 'cancel' out of our commitment.

      And that's cool. That's what the cancel clause is all about... if you chose to go that way.

      If the front-side (landing page) copy fully exposes the forced continuity fee, hence the 30 days (or so)... then it appears to be totally legit and a great and fair marketing practice. It, however, must retain total copy exposure and the fullest respect of its cancellations upheld.

      And the recent mention of 'optional' Continuity is cute... Kind-of-like web 2.-0? Anyway, it appears that 'full exposure' would justify an honorable mention for such digital nomenclature.

      And, what of Optional Continuity anyway?... Is this just another way to test the system with an 'optional' way to apply forced continuity, until Visa/MC (who made them the only bank cards anyway?) decides that these optional ways don't meet their standards?

      mmmm,
      Hopefully, we can address the forced (the m/cards reference to such as 'negative continuity' seems a little wacky) continuity issue with some fairness in descriptive laws issued by the merchant hierarchy, with full understanding of its applications thereof.

      "It would seem futile to cut-loose, or otherwise shut-down a perfectly good and if used with correctly, an acceptable and powerful marketing approach!"

      Also note such reference to Capital One's thoughts. They are 'not' complaining! Their 'possible' re-wording of such 'continuity' language may force Cap1 to comply with VISA/MC. However, one would think that with reasonable offerings, along with openness within its copywriting, why not just let the marketplace decide it's viability...

      If it is exposed properly, (ala) like 'the new FTC testimonial laws' - why not let the market dictate forced continuity's ultimate fate?!

      Bottom line... true marketers understand that 'revealing' your options for continuity and cancel 'up-front' makes for a legitimate marketing program.

      Don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because a few have abused the limits...

      Look, I believe that this 'is' a great marketing strategy. I mean... come on, are we marketers or whooosies? Honest copywriting up-front should allow 'exposed' forced continuity programs to continue.

      Appreciate reading 'pro-active' viewpoints from you all!...
      best,
      -Michael Lofton
      mailto:michael@customercount.com
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      • Profile picture of the author mloveridge17
        Originally Posted by MichaelLofton View Post

        Let's face it, this does take place off-line and the on-line versions have their variables, indeed. I'd bet a good deal of us had taken up the $7.95 cd s&h offers, only to jam in 30 free days of continuity review, thereafter to reach the merchant account's desk just in time to 'cancel' out of our commitment.

        And that's cool. That's what the cancel clause is all about... if you chose to go that way.

        If the front-side (landing page) copy fully exposes the forced continuity fee, hence the 30 days (or so)... then it appears to be totally legit and a great and fair marketing practice. It, however, must retain total copy exposure and the fullest respect of its cancellations upheld.

        And the recent mention of 'optional' Continuity is cute... Kind-of-like web 2.-0? Anyway, it appears that 'full exposure' would justify an honorable mention for such digital nomenclature.
        From what I've seen, MC/Visa is saying "negative option" is out, which is any forced continuity. But they are slamming any merchant account that does any sort of rebill, regardless of the copy on the page. Although I agree that as long as disclosure is there prior to purchase that it should be legit, MC/Visa apparently don't.

        One of the biggest issues is people going immediately to their credit card company to cancel before going to the company they purchased from. That isn't part of the agreement. If you need to cancel, contact the company FIRST. If you can't get them to cancel (which would indicate a less-than-legitimate compant), then and only then should you go the credit card company. Too many people think it is just the same, but MC/Visa don't want to deal with consumers so they penalize the companies with large quantities of complaints, regardless of whether the complaints are legitimate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      if you are running a free trial offer, your merchant account will get shut down.... ours was just flagged.

      seems like the RFT model is under attack.

      we're trying to see what they want to get compliant, but it seems like no one can tell you whats up yet.

      we're in limbo.
      Just got word from not one, not two, but three different guys that their accounts have been shut down entirely ... with no recourse.

      This just got VERY, VERY bad.

      G
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    • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      if you are running a free trial offer, your merchant account will get shut down.... ours was just flagged.

      seems like the RFT model is under attack.

      we're trying to see what they want to get compliant, but it seems like no one can tell you whats up yet.

      we're in limbo.
      This new event was triggered in a panic somehow. The CC companies will probably be hitting all kinds of legitimate places because the employee has no clue as to what is an infraction or not.

      In Atlanta, I believe the House Flipping was made illegal because some scammers got caught doing something different and called it flipping.

      It will be difficult for membership sites to get approved and a whole bunch of other practices will be hard to get thru until or maybe even after the dust settles.

      The problem with these decisions is that the people enforcing them seldom have a clue as to what another industry is doing so they flag it as illegal or against the terms.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Iser
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      if you are running a free trial offer, your merchant account will get shut down.... ours was just flagged.

      seems like the RFT model is under attack.

      we're trying to see what they want to get compliant, but it seems like no one can tell you whats up yet.

      we're in limbo.

      Miz let's talk about it this weekend in Vegas.

      I have a tip that can help. Just remind me.

      PS. If you want to know some of the people who contributed to this industry-changing issue in a big way, I think you need to look at Jesse Willms and The "Utah" cats.

      Our national TV syndicated network CBC in Canada went to Alberta to investigate Jesse - ABC has as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
    Ever since Clickbank offered a recurring billing facility, they have always stuck to the minimum first payment being $4.95 and have refused (despite many requests from marketers) to allow any sort of free trial period whatsoever.

    I always wondered why as I'm sure they know it increases conversions, but it seems it is now obvious - they could see what was coming.
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  • Profile picture of the author deckman
    This guy had some foresight to bring this out about 10 months ago and looks like he hit the nail right on the head.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian Dayton
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Brian Dayton View Post

      mloveridge17 is RIGHT.

      It is well and truly GAME OVER for continuity sites.

      DOZENS of forum posts all over the net are from people who have had their merchant accounts BANNED INSTANTLY in the last day or two for doing continuity.

      THIS IS HUGE.

      If you use this model, hold off that holiday or new car you've been planning to buy, you need all the savings you have to stay alive, expect to be fighting for your financial life.

      When you get the ban you may find you're next months income is.....ZERO and you're finished....until you can come up with new ideas....

      All those many guru courses teaching continuity like Micro Continuity from Russell Brunson, sad to say probably are now of no use whatsoever.

      This has NOTHING to do with hidden continuity it is ALL CONTINUITY being targeted.

      If you don't believe me, read the forums BAN, BAN, BAN of merchant accounts, MASS SLAYINGS.

      This is going to be a HUGE game changer like the Adwords bloodbath recently.

      Many big players will be destroyed, new opportunities opening up for many others waiting on the sidelines....waiting to pounce.
      This is not necessarily true (meaning your statement of ALL continuity).

      Continuity is fine as long as:

      - There is no free trial
      - There is no "Free plus Shipping"
      - The STARTING price is the same as the recurring price
      - The order form is NOT pre-checked (the customer MUST add to cart)
      - The terms are CLEARLY spelled out and not confusing or hidden
      - Cancellation policy clearly defined
      - There now must be a "Confirmation" checkbox at the terms that the buyer needs to check so they "understand"

      We got this directly from our merchant provider. Anyone having their recurring shut down most likely had one of those items above. They were not given an opportunity to update the site and change things.

      Just shut down.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Thank You Mike for clearing that up
    -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    i've been on the phone with our processor back and forth all day yesterday....

    here's whats REALLY up.

    they don't want any free trials.... the low 1st payment and a higher recurring payment.

    thats a big no no.

    I believe you have to offer the trial for the same price each month, no first payment like $5 or whatnot.

    i believe fixed term continuity is better than unlimited

    Higher priced front ends with lower priced continuity is ok (I believe it's gotta be optional, but not sure)

    1 click upsells i think are gonna have issues.

    They're still not sure what the exact deal is, but will know more in the hours/days ahead.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayInOrlando
      Updated the terms on my running offer, lets see what sort of effect this has on conversions.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by JayInOrlando View Post

        Updated the terms on my running offer, lets see what sort of effect this has on conversions.
        The good news is, all your competitors are in the same boat, so if conversions suffer for you, most likely everyone will see the same thing.

        The other good news is, this is a great time to restructure your offers to add more value as a way to get a leg up on competitors. If a "free" trial is no longer allowed, customers will still be looking for the best deals. Give it to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas W
    this is nothing new.. I've been in the industry for along time. These things cycle all the time.

    But basically every merchant processor has their own set of rules you must abide. There is absolutly nothing wrong with Free or smaller trial offers. You just have to be upfront and clear about it and not tricky.

    I have burned 3 different merchant accounts. They all have different rules about this. Just keep your chargebacks below their recommendations
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by Thomas W View Post

      this is nothing new.. I've been in the industry for along time. These things cycle all the time.

      But basically every merchant processor has their own set of rules you must abide. There is absolutly nothing wrong with Free or smaller trial offers. You just have to be upfront and clear about it and not tricky.

      I have burned 3 different merchant accounts. They all have different rules about this. Just keep your chargebacks below their recommendations
      What??????

      Ya you know what your talking about I can tell
      That is why hundreds of businesses in the last 48 hrs have been shut down because it happens all the time and is no big deal right??
      -ridiculous comment
      -WD
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas W
        Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

        What??????

        Ya you know what your talking about I can tell
        That is why hundreds of businesses in the last 48 hrs have been shut down because it happens all the time and is no big deal right??
        -ridiculous comment
        -WD
        I can assure I've been in this industry for a long time. Visa/Mastercard can be a PITA when they lay down the law

        Back when I first started this industry (1998) everyone was doing free trials with high rebills of $59.99. (mainly from Pornsites)

        Then around 2001 Visa/MC banned free trials because high chargebacks and complaints to the FTC, but many people just lower paid trials like $2.95 was like the mininum at the time

        Then around 2003 Visa/MC said everyone that wanted to use them had to pay a $300 fee

        The issue today is that many of these "FREE" trials are not really FREE. They just hide it by saying only pay "Shipping and Handeling FEE"

        merchant accounts are a dime a dozen. tons of them ready to take anyones business. Especially third party merchants lick 2co and ccbill . Just get another account follow the rules and your good.

        I think it's good thing though when they crack down. It just levels the playing field for everyone.
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        • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
          Originally Posted by Thomas W View Post

          I can assure I've been in this industry for a long time. Visa/Mastercard can be a PITA when they lay down the law

          Back when I first started this industry (1998) everyone was doing free trials with high rebills of $59.99. (mainly from Pornsites)

          Then around 2001 Visa/MC banned free trials because high chargebacks and complaints to the FTC, but many people just lower paid trials like $2.95 was like the mininum at the time

          Then around 2003 Visa/MC said everyone that wanted to use them had to pay a $300 fee

          The issue today is that many of these "FREE" trials are not really FREE. They just hide it by saying only pay "Shipping and Handeling FEE"

          merchant accounts are a dime a dozen. tons of them ready to take anyones business. Especially third party merchants lick 2co and ccbill . Just get another account follow the rules and your good.

          I think it's good thing though when they crack down. It just levels the playing field for everyone.
          back in 99 it was not the porn industry it was gambling sites illegal gambling sites actually and then the american senate passed a bill etc.
          This is copied from Ryan Lee's site direct email from his merchant provider

          Marketing models that employ "Free-Trial", "Deferred Billing" and/or "Shipping Only". Customers must be receiving a tangible good or contracted service in exchange for charging of payment cards. Incentivized discount offers are acceptable when the cardholder is receiving something in exchange for payment, however we will be unable to support accounts engaging in hidden or delayed charges and 'free' offers that are not truly free.
          "Cross-Selling" and "Up-selling" business practices. All sales should be directly between the business entities (merchant) processing the transaction and the cardholder, with cardholder authorization for all purchases.
          Per Payment Brand guidelines, the use of multiple merchant accounts, billing descriptors and merchant processors may be viewed as an attempt to avoid chargeback monitoring programs and is prohibited. Perceived non-compliance has led to termination of processing relationships. (name withheld) will review the business consideration for opening multiple merchant accounts to ensure compliance with Payment Brand guidelines.
          Transactions generated from internet traffic and all other lead sources must be managed and monitored for potential fraud using an approved system. Third Party service engagement may be a requirement for account approval.
          The FTC has recently published guidelines regarding "Negative Option" enrollment programs and is taking a very aggressive position against merchants utilizing/employing this business practice. Recommendations take in part from the FTC's website may include but are not limited to the following:
          Material terms should be disclosed in a clear, concise manner. Unnecessarily long or inconsistent terms are viewed as an attempt to mislead the consumer.
          Terms should be disclosed in a conspicuous manner, clearly placed and labeled on websites in a location that indicates the importance and relevance to the transaction. Fonts and colors must be easy to view.
          Material terms must be disclosed prior to completion of the transaction and before a financial obligation is incurred by the consumer.
          Customers must provide affirmative consent to any offer, examples include a mandatory "I Agree..." statement checkbox, where the customer is acknowledging the Terms and Conditions of the offer and consents to be entered into continuity program as a result of completing the transaction. Pre-checked boxes do not qualify as affirmative consent.
          Merchants must not discourage or make difficult in any way the disclosed cancellation procedures and all cancellation requests must be honored in accordance with the stated terms of the transaction.



          If visa and mastecard had already done this wouldn't this be saying AGAIN? As far as I know and understand this is the worst event to hit the net I had to revamp some things on my sign up page namely my tos to be agreed to. I don't use any of these methods but I do comply with the law.

          This is not repeat this is hitting the whole indsutry offline and online.
          -WD
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas W
            Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

            back in 99 it was not the porn industry it was gambling sites illegal gambling sites actually and then the american senate passed a bill etc.

            If visa and mastecard had already done this wouldn't this be saying AGAIN? As far as I know and understand this is the worst event to hit the net I had to revamp some things on my sign up page namely my tos to be agreed to. I don't use any of these methods but I do comply with the law.

            This is not repeat this is hitting the whole indsutry offline and online.
            -WD
            The sky is not falling. businesses will need pivot and adjust. Just follow the FTC's new rules. those that got banned probably had high chargebacks, difficult cancellations or refunds, hidden terms and blatent false advertising

            This reminds of the time when a company called Acacia claimed they had patent on Video Streaming. Supposedly end of online videos

            Or even when Amazon.com claimed they owned the patent to ecommerce and affiliate marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author deckman
    No one has mentioned the affects this can have on customers of the services. If they were happy with it and wanted the service then I guess they will have to make alternative arrangements to continue the service?
    Will this have a ripple affect that will include damages to customers that may not be able to receive the service no more?
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  • Profile picture of the author digigo
    totally agree with visa and master card on this...

    now.. who is going to do something about MAIL-IN REBATE????

    while we are at it.. we may need to set up a rule of fine print.. like minimum contrast and font size..
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  • Profile picture of the author alamest
    It is very bad news for that people who follow the right way and it is very good news for those who misuse it badly, one day it will happen because as population increases more bad things happens in the world.

    But after FTC became so strong the whole internet thing is changing day by day, as you can see that Google have banned so many user, Google have slapped so many user and I was one of them but never mind rules are rules.

    I think from now onwards people will start using third party like Paypal, alert pay and so on to go with the trial version, if visa or mastercard stops it than the merchant will face big time problem and theirs sales will be dropped and dropped in conversion.

    But everything happens for good thing...

    Thanks for sharing it
    Alam
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  • Profile picture of the author affhelper
    Google is fine with rebills. In fact when I chatted with their rep they told me that if you have a checkbox on the page where people enter their information and they can't continue without checking it to agree with the terms then it's perfectly legal. The problem was with the companies that charged like the 2nd day after they filled out the form for full price of the monthly deal. But FTC is going to make one general rule now for everyone and destroy many businesses in the process. It's a shame. I hope the legit businesses will fight this!
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Ultimately, right now it's panic time. Accounts ARE being shut down without warning. But things will shake out in time and clearer "rules" will be put forth.

    Right now, I advise erring on the side of caution until that happens, or you risk losing your merchant account.
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  • Profile picture of the author w3bmast3r
    I think good on them, if your not disclosing your full terms and condictions your niot an ethical business.

    "Do unto other as you wish they do unto you"

    The Golden Rule is an ethical code that states one has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others. It is also called the ethic of reciprocity.

    Would you do it to your grandma?
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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    The amount of pure misinformation here is incredible.

    First of all don't read, listen, or watch anything by the "guru's" on this subject because it's all BS.

    Second of all don't listen to the majority of people here who feel the need to speak on a subject they know nothing about.

    Banks are in it for the profit. That's all you need to know. Some RFT [risk free trials] were getting out of hand becoming quad stacked with forced continuity. That means when you sign up your credit card will be billed x times monthly for four, seemingly different, things.

    Visa and Mastercard both needed to start doing charge backs and spent many hours with consumers understandably upset and confused. It got to the point where it wasn't economically feasible to do this - they then started to shut down merchanting accounts for some big re-bills.

    Note: This is old news. This happened on New Years eve. I was out having a good time and when I woke up in the morning, checked my stats, and my biggest offers were down. This is no longer an issue but I'll continue anyway.

    Obviously most people here don't do any real business with CPA. If you did you could log into your CPA account, or just ask your AM, for Visa and Mastercard compliant offers.

    This is such a non-issue but yet the "guru's", a.k.a those with blogs who don't know how to make any real money, make it into one because drama sells and drama brings in the pageviews.

    Remember: Tons of guys made over 8 figures with CPA last year. When your income is that high you don't just let it die. You don't let little guys at Visa and Mastercard making a few hundred grand a year make or break your income. You find work arounds, and as always there are workarounds.

    All these new regulations do is kick new advertisers, with little experience to the curb which is a good thing.

    Always keep in mind that 99% of things you hear on forums, regardless of what forum, is false. 99% of the people who reply make nothing, know nothing, will never amount to any success online. It's just the way it is so take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

    Just surround yourself with those who know what they're doing and you'll be alright.

    Zach

    P.S - Stop wasting time worrying, and start making money. Seriously. Trust that those who make more, have much more to lose, will figure things out. Focus on your job: making your dreams, whatever they may be, come true.
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    I don't understand the problem behind "free + shipping" offers.

    What's the difference between these:

    1) $9.95 + free shipping

    2) $5 + $4.95 s/h

    3) free + $9.95 s/h

    Why is one more problematic than another?

    Or maybe it's targeting people on eBay who sell you a trinket that weighs 2 ounces and they charge $0.99 + $35 s/h

    No matter how you slice it, the charges are not delayed -- they're charged immediately.

    I'm not talking about anything dealing with a continuity program here!

    People keep saying that "free offers" and "free + shipping" are being targeted. What does this have to do with continuity, and why are they causing problems for credit card merchants?

    -David
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    Has anybody heard how this might affect PayPal and Clickbank?
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    the amount of crap info and nonsense in here from some people is amazing....

    i've been on the phone a half a dozen times with authorize, our processor, barak obama (just kidding), and meritus.

    i've had 2 merchant accounts shut down, one wasn't even doing forced continuity, it was doing OPTIONAL, with everything disclosed, and the box unchecked.... it didn't fly with them.

    no one knows 100% sure YET, what is compliant. They aren't saying anything as of now...

    1. if you offer ANY forced continuity you will get shut down... if not already.
    2. if you offer a free + shipping you will get shut down, if not already.
    3. if you offer a free trial of your product with continuity, you will get shut down.

    you can't have a lower 1st payment and a higher monthly payment, they are considering this a no no.

    1click upsells are an issue also.

    It looks like the trial model is done.... everyone here at affiliate summit is saying the pay upfront model is the thing now.

    If you think you know different, its just a matter of time... you will get shut down.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

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    • Profile picture of the author textron
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      It looks like the trial model is done.... everyone here at affiliate summit is saying the pay upfront model is the thing now.
      this is going to kill conversions.. really bring them down to the dirt.

      how are porn sites going to get away with the $3.95 trails.

      so many examples of lower first month higher 2nd month.. even cable companies do that. although they dont use visa/mc.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanleedotcom
    I'm going to do another video on my blog tomorrow with more updates and I'm gathering more information.

    Right now, no one really has the final answer. It's all still pretty gray.

    Here's what we do know...

    1. If you offer ANY type of continuity program - be 100% open, transparent and upfront. Put it in at least 12 point font. Keep it within 100 pixels of the order button. Mention it at least 2 times on your sales process. Give them a box to check and make it mandatory they do so before they checkout.

    2. Be crystal clear on your upsells.

    3. Do not use multiple merchant account for upsells.
    For example, if you are selling a $20 product billed to ryanlee.com, then don't offer another upsell and bill that one to bestmarketing solutions.

    People's merchant accounts ARE getting frozen.

    Play it safe and if you think you are in a hazy area, take it down.

    This has been a long time coming - and now it's time for everyone to do we all should have been from day one.

    Be open. Honest. Transparent.

    If you wouldn't be proud to have your own mother, father, brother, or sister signup for your product and go through your sales process - then DON'T SELL IT TO ANYONE!

    Stay tuned...

    Ryan
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    Ryan Lee - www.ryanlee.com
    Free Videos and Marketing Reports
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  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
    In my opinion if you are doing continuity I would immediately switch it to a one off fee for 3 months/6 months/12 months etc for the time being.

    A lot of people are switching their sites to a standard continuity model with the first payment equal to future payments, but even this is risky in the current climate.

    Might be worth considering switching to a one off payment until the dust settles and everything is cleared up, because at the moment a lot of merchant account providers are clearly in panic mode.

    A lot of the actions being taken and information going about is contradictory, in other words it is a shambolic mess.

    Don't forget after things are clarified you can always switch back to continuity.
    Signature
    'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    you CAN do continuity, but there are several things that need to be fixed and changed in order to do so.... multiple check boxes confirming continuity, specific text etc.

    we've been on the phone with merchant accounts getting things sorted...
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

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  • Profile picture of the author nobodyspecial
    I wonder if Blockbuster is going to have their merchant account terminated:

    https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/m...27981/r.20145/
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Originally Posted by nobodyspecial View Post

      I wonder if Blockbuster is going to have their merchant account terminated:

      https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/m...27981/r.20145/
      lol

      They are very clear about what is going on.
      Signature
      'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    I wonder why I haven't heard a word from my merchant account provider about this. I just logged into my account, and even under "News" there is nothing about it.

    If there are sweeping new rules, wouldn't there be some mention of them somewhere?

    It also seems like PayPal and Clickbank would be issuing statements, since changes by MC or Visa affect them, too.

    It doesn't make sense to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
    Nobody knows the answers yet, all merchant accounts appear to have different opinions and interpretations after their conversations with Visa & Mastercard.

    Some say you can do $1 trials on continuity, some say you can't.

    Some say you can do free trials still, some say you can't.

    Some say you can still do 1 click upsells, some say you can't.

    It is a complete shambles basically.

    I'm not offering continuity at the moment on any projects, but if I was I would switch it to one off payments until everything is crystal clear.

    Many of the posters on this thread have been kindly trying to help by writing what their merchant accounts told them, but the problem is other merchant accounts have told other people totally different things.

    Hence all the contradictions.
    Signature
    'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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