Question for Women Warriors...

123 replies
I'm wondering how many women are put off by email that seems clearly targeted to men - simply by their subject line or salutation. And no, I don't mean emails promoting viagra or other male-related product.

I just received another email from a male marketer who chose to use the subject line: "Dude". That's it. Just "Dude".

Well, unless my thinking is way off kilter, as far as I know a Dude is a guy. So why would I open such a message?

Personally, I find it a little rude that marketers would use such an intro unless they are specifically targeting men, which this message and others I've received are not. I figure, either the guy is "guy-focused", he assumes his targets are men, he doesn't see women as members of IM, or he's just not thinking.

Just wondering how other women IMers feel about this.

Sylvia
#question #warriors #women
  • Profile picture of the author Valorie
    Sylvia-
    I think that most of the people trying to make it in IM are men. For whatever reason, that's the feeling I get. I think there are a lot of women writers and bloggers, but more men are in CPA and PPC and such. (IMHO) I have an email account that is full of marketer's emails, because I like to see how other people interact with thier lists, and I get the Dude type emails too.

    I was wondering just the other day, is there some kind of IM membership site that is by women, for women? I know there is WHAM, but they aren't dedicated solely to IM. I think I would join a site like that, because I think there is a big difference in how men and women attack IM.

    -Valorie
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Hi Sylvia,

    Yes, that's pretty common to see IM'ers using language directed at males.

    In some cases, it's because they truly are targeting males. They don't really care if females join their lists or buy their products. If females do, that's just a bonus.

    In other instances, I've seen male IMers who are truly baffled as to why more females don't join their lists, attend their events, buy their products, etc. Problem is, they're using language and images that more commonly appeal to males -- like a product with the word "bootcamp" in it (and images of gun sight crosshairs).

    Obviously, this doesn't completely turn all women away. Just look at the Warrior Forum as an example. Even though "warrior" is a word that may, overall, be more attractive to men than to women, there are plenty of women here. (Of course any women not here are missing out on the best IM info on the net.)

    It doesn't bother me if someone uses language/copy/images/marketing that appeals more to men. If that's the case, I figure I'm not part of their target market. But if they ask for feedback as to why they're not getting female customers, then I'm happy to point out the possible reasons why.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author KristiDaniels
    I don't have any problem with it. I have even been called "Dude" right here on the forum.

    I figured it was a youngster thing more than anything. I think young people call each other "dude" regardless of gender.
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    • Profile picture of the author SonnyYoung
      My teen daughters use "dude" for males and females. It was weird to hear this at first, but I'm used to it now. I'm not to crazy about using the word in business, though. Just me.
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by KristiDaniels View Post

      I don't have any problem with it. I have even been called "Dude" right here on the forum.

      I figured it was a youngster thing more than anything. I think young people call each other "dude" regardless of gender.
      Hehe, I think that is the case, I spent a bit of time around some Americans and now I can't get dude out my head . Dam that word, it is used so much and can be used in so many places it's just used .
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      • Profile picture of the author veronica773
        This reply is for Zeus66. I respect what men say, but your comment was unprofound. I haven't heard that statement in a long time. Women place is not in the kitchen, and it is about time that men realize it.
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by veronica773 View Post

          This reply is for Zeus66. I respect what men say, but your comment was unprofound. I haven't heard that statement in a long time. Women place is not in the kitchen, and it is about time that men realize it.
          He was JUST KIDDING!!! Didn't y'all get the sarcasm in his post??

          Chill out... really.. he was kidding.

          And, hey, I LURVE being in the kitchen I'm a really old-fashioned gal, however. You'd not like my views

          Warmly,

          Brandi
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        • Profile picture of the author Elle Holder
          Originally Posted by veronica773 View Post

          This reply is for Zeus66. I respect what men say, but your comment was unprofound. I haven't heard that statement in a long time. Women place is not in the kitchen, and it is about time that men realize it.

          Veronica, your first post here is to slap someone upside the head? :rolleyes: I'm sure he doesn't need me sticking up for him, but he's joking!
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        • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
          Originally Posted by veronica773 View Post

          This reply is for Zeus66. I respect what men say, but your comment was unprofound. I haven't heard that statement in a long time. Women place is not in the kitchen, and it is about time that men realize it.
          You have to watch that Zeus dude ... but before you put him in his place .... Take the affiliate link out of your sig file ... not allowed .

          John I bow ... you are a braver man than me :-)

          As far as the headline Dude . Not a real incentive to open . But I could be wrong .
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

    John <running as fast as he can>
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      Another case where "dude" can be used .

      Im telling you, this word can be used everywhere .
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    • Profile picture of the author Tam Chancellor
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      . And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.
      Sure, honey. Right after I add a little anti-freeze for flavoring
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by Tam Chancellor View Post

        Sure, honey. Right after I add a little anti-freeze for flavoring
        Please don't hurt me. I'll be good.

        OK, sorry to do another mini-hijack of a thread. My real answer here is that yes, I have noticed this is a male dominated industry in terms of the language used. It's akin to certain academic fields (math, hard sciences, computer programming) which have traditionally been heavily male. But I think that's changing in the last generation or so, which is a good thing! Eventually I think we'll see a blurring of this gender-specific language thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Charann Miller
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      Chasing you before you've even finished that sentence...hehehehhe.

      I received the exact same email, it was "DUDE" that was in the subject line, I didn't take offence to it personally because within context he is a very, very young marketer, I think 18 or 19 years of age.

      So taking that into consideration it makes sense. He's also trying to experiment with different subject lines outside the bounds of "Go Go Go" or "5 Left So Get Yours Now" which I think is great and for someone his age, shows ingenuity.
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    • Profile picture of the author debra
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      And you state you live in Texas!....

      Man...you got balls...

      Just keep on runin'

      Cuz my truck tires are smoken' right behind ya...




      I got ya beer...:p
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    • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      Singing:

      "Throw another log on the fire, cook me up some bacon and some beans and come and tell me why you're leaving me."
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    • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      DUDE, you're an asstard.

      ETA: I think everyone needs to relax where it comes to political correctness.
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    • Profile picture of the author Denise Ashurst
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      Oh you asking for a fight!!! Never T women off buddy...we're far cleverer at getting our own back! lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      yeah...you better run! This rolling pin in my hand is just itching to hit something! :p

      seriously though...I delete those emails. Sorry, but "dude" should not be a way to address anyone in business...
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    • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

      John <running as fast as he can>
      You better run fast
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  • Profile picture of the author Tam Chancellor
    Certain generations use "dude" for both males and females. My nephew
    calls me dude all the time. I've seen his circle of friends (both female and male) call
    women dudes. It used to really bug me, but I'm used to it now.

    I do agree with Becky that IM'ers use language mostly directed at males. It's
    the "violent" type language that really gets under my skin...annihilate,
    killer, crusher, etc... I also hated the "crack" thing, but I haven't seen that
    in awhile. But it speaks to their target market which is generally not women.

    Tam
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    • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
      Originally Posted by Tam Chancellor View Post

      It's
      the "violent" type language that really gets under my skin...annihilate,
      killer, crusher, etc... I also hated the "crack" thing, but I haven't seen that
      in awhile. But it speaks to their target market which is generally not women.
      None of this bothers me, although the 'crack' thing might have made me feel mildly uneasy if I hadn't become blind to it so quickly due so many people using it. Being called 'Dude' doesn't ruffle me either, but the solitary use of the word as an e-mail subject line with nothing to explain the contents would probably have seen it deleted unread.

      I'm pretty easy going really, or at least I thought I was until I saw one particular thread title in the WSO forum which I found so offensive that just looking at it made me feel unclean. I'm not going to say which one it was but it certainly didn't appeal to me enough to open it. Maybe it's 'just' a woman thing or maybe it's just me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Elle Holder
        I wouldn't be offended by the "Dude" subject line, since I know that the term isn't gender specific to the younger generation. (And doesn't THAT make me feel a whole lot older than I am!)

        However, receiving an email with that subject line would make me question the sender's maturity.

        From a sales standpoint, you want to do everything you can to gain the trust of a potential buyer. You want to establish some credibility. Maybe calling me dude would work if I belonged to the age group that changed the meaning of the word. But chances are a whole lot of people just won't get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author rlharding
    While I do find a lot of male IMers don't seem to know that there are women buyers who cringe at their pics/images/words, I find 'dude' OK. I didn't at first because, like you, I thought it was an exclusive term. As others have said, I know of people in their 20s and younger who call each gender dude.

    I recently got a post from one particular high earning IMer/guru type that was complete with scantily clad, thin, blond, blue eyed woman as a main image! He sure isn't targeting me!

    I mus say I am heartened to see some women posters on this thread that I haven't seen post in my time here......it is a male dominated profession which is why I don't necessarily follow the recommendations for doing sales letters.....women, by the most part, are put off by that hype kind of marketing.

    Interesting thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melanie Crouse
    I guess I am just so used to working in male-dominated areas that I don't even notice it anymore. My day job is in IT, which is still fairly male-dominated and IM definitely still is. I really don't find "dude," "mate," etc. bothersome at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author sandra.IMqueen
      Whilst I get that some language is inclusive (in the UK we use guys the same way as I suspect dude is used in the USA) wouldn't it be fantastic if gender was treated with respect.

      Women make up the majority population and as far as i know we are not a new species, so why is it hard to be sensitive to the needs of your audience?

      Come on it's time to make a little more effort - trust me it will be appreciated and you'll see the differnce on the bottom line.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sandra.IMqueen View Post

        Whilst I get that some language is inclusive (in the UK we use guys the same way as I suspect dude is used in the USA) wouldn't it be fantastic if gender was treated with respect.

        Women make up the majority population and as far as i know we are not a new species, so why is it hard to be sensitive to the needs of your audience?

        Come on it's time to make a little more effort - trust me it will be appreciated and you'll see the differnce on the bottom line.
        HOW is acknowledging a persons sex an insult? If I call you a women, lady, or female, DON'T take it as an insult. I certainly DON'T mean it as one.

        HECK, there is a scene, in D.A.R.Y.L. where a person that is treated as, acts as, and is considered a robot is finally acknowledged to be MALE by one that knows him. His response? "THANK YOU"!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    For whatever reason, traditionally, people using computers, etc... have been MEN. So if only 50% of the general population is female, you would expect a good deal less than 50% of the people in IM would be female.

    And DUDE is rude for GUYS also. It sounds like some teenager wanting to be your BUDDY!

    How do you feel about WOMEN on STAR TREK being called ***SIR***!?!?

    BTW isn't mate in australian/british/etc... English just a word for FRIEND!? In AMERICAN English it can mean spouse, or one together with you in an endeavor, like a roommate.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I'm trying so hard to be good, but this thread is like a shiny red piece of candy beckoning to me from across the room. Will power, will power, will power. Must.... be..... strong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I liken it to actresses being called actors nowadays. There's been a blurring of gender going on for some time. The question is, why?
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I liken it to actresses being called actors nowadays. There's been a blurring of gender going on for some time. The question is, why?
      Dennis, I think a better question is "why not?" It seems a bit strange nowadays to differentiate genders when describing professions. Would you call someone a doctress, for example?

      I'm of the generation that still feels a pang of guilt using "he" as a general term for people, but it feels cumbersome to always write "he or she" and "his or her". And reverting to the politically (if not grammatically) correct "their" to avoid giving any possible offence, isn't ideal. It would be helpful to have a universally recognized "neutral" term.

      Having said all that, it still grates to see a woman described as a "blond" or a man as "blonde". But then I was probably French in a previous life.


      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Dennis, I think a better question is "why not?"
        Well Frank, I can think of a few reasons why not, but I won't discuss them all here. Here's one reason though...
        Actor Kim Basinger
        ...if you're not familiar with her, you can't tell if that refers to a male or female because Kim is a male and female name, you might even think she's a man because the term "actor" is used.

        Not that that is important, but what I think is important is when there are entities that want to change tradition, I think the better question is to ask why. Using your example, if someone wanted to start calling female doctors "doctresses" I'd also want to know why.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Not that that is important, but what I think is important is when there are entities that want to change tradition, I think the better question is to ask why. Using your example, if someone wanted to start calling female doctors "doctresses" I'd also want to know why.
          Dennis, that's a fair point. But we've all accepted changes to social traditions where the sensibilities of a sector of society have been respected. This particular matter may be of little consequence to you or me, but I guess if the "actresses" themselves want to be called something different (perhaps because they don't see the need to differentiate their gender) then fair enough, really.

          The name confusion isn't sufficient reason on its own, IMO, as there are so many other professions where this potential confusion would also apply.

          And I've never confused Kim Basinger with a male actor.


          Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author innocent07
    Banned
    Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

    I'm wondering how many women are put off by email that seems clearly targeted to men - simply by their subject line or salutation. And no, I don't mean emails promoting viagra or other male-related product.

    I just received another email from a male marketer who chose to use the subject line: "Dude". That's it. Just "Dude".

    Well, unless my thinking is way off kilter, as far as I know a Dude is a guy. So why would I open such a message?

    Personally, I find it a little rude that marketers would use such an intro unless they are specifically targeting men, which this message and others I've received are not. I figure, either the guy is "guy-focused", he assumes his targets are men, he doesn't see women as members of IM, or he's just not thinking.

    Just wondering how other women IMers feel about this.

    Sylvia
    You can get your own back by writing emails targeted just for women lol.

    but 2 wrongs don't make a right
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  • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
    Sylvia, (weird to say that to someone else LOL) it really doesn't bother me. Like other posters, a lot of people around me have used the term dude for both genders so I got used to it. Been online for years now as well, so I have become used to the fact most direct their marketing to males, unless it is a female specific niche list or something similar.

    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author Teresa Coppes
    It doesn't bother me but then again I use the term "guys" even with my lady friends. Walk into a room & say Hey Guys is very common as is dude.

    Teresa
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  • Profile picture of the author Mrs_Mo
    Dude probably would work with teenagers and young adults.
    even I think if you call a young rocker guy, covered in tattoos - hey dude - he won't mind. I agree with someone said, maybe the marketer is young

    But when I think of babyboomers, refined older man I don't know... I wonder how my dentist or doctor would like to be greeted as "dude".

    English is not my second language, but when I was talking to a guy, a friend of mine in UK, and I mentioned that I hear in the US on TV reality shows, young people calling each other "dude" ....well he gave me a lecture about how rude that is..

    So I think it depends in who your target public really is.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurenceh
    I would read a subject line as "Dude" as a little informal even if I had a good relationship with my list.

    It would work perhaps with a list that targetted teenage/younger members but if I wasn't sure of my demographics I'd steer clear of anything that casual.

    But ladies just to put a different spin on this, wouldn't you also be a little offended or put off by a subject line of "Sweetheart" or "Babe"?

    Again, more of a case of the tone rather than the gender being the main issue?
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    • Profile picture of the author Cynthia A.
      Originally Posted by laurenceh View Post

      But ladies just to put a different spin on this, wouldn't you also be a little offended or put off by a subject line of "Sweetheart" or "Babe"?

      Again, more of a case of the tone rather than the gender being the main issue?
      That's not the same thing. I would be highly offended if someone used "Sweetheart" or "Babe" in a subject line. What if the subject line "Sweetheart" or "Babe" was used for YOU too? (Those terms aren't reserved for women only ya know.) The terms "Sweetheart" or "Babe" can be taken as condescending pejoratives (if you don't know the sender). Even though I'm not crazy about it (my age is showing), "Dude" is more akin to "Guy" or "Gal" - innocuous.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
        How did I KNOW that this thread would eventually turn into something about periods, cramps or hormones, huh? You women think you have it bad; well, how about this... my wife ripped a mole off my side because of a little pain during childbirth! Now you talk about sore, THAT hurt for a while!
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        • Profile picture of the author sylviad
          Originally Posted by Denise Ashurst View Post

          Do you think if we have ladettes as well as lads (UK at least), we should perhaps press for the dudette derivative of dude? Oh what the hell, I'll let the poets and hard core theorists and intellectuals fight the word fight... I'll just watch the warrior battles from the linguistic sidelines after my earlier battle surge... Too many other wars of diplomacy ahead in the on-going wrestle for equal inclusion!

          Watching all such stuff with interest here....... : ) Let's hear it for and from the ladies!
          The feminine term of lads is lasses - laddie = lassie.
          Middle English = (m) ladde (f) lasse

          You mean dude/dudettes, as in smurf/smurfettes?

          Originally Posted by Cynthia A. View Post

          ... Even though I'm not crazy about it (my age is showing), "Dude" is more akin to "Guy" or "Gal" - innocuous.
          You can be sure it originated as a "guy" reference and is still strongly so.

          Originally Posted by Chris W. Sutton View Post

          How did I KNOW that this thread would eventually turn into something about periods, cramps or hormones, huh? You women think you have it bad; well, how about this... my wife ripped a mole off my side because of a little paid during childbirth! Now you talk about sore, THAT hurt for a while!
          Shocking isn't it, that it had to go that route, especially since it has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of the thread. So, Chris... where did you say that mole was, exactly?

          Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    I really don't care. I rarely listen to them anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mili_D
    I don't have any issue with this. In fact I think it's all politicises your worries shouldn't be on that petty things like that, worry about making big cash
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  • Profile picture of the author vneely
    I always thought "dude" sounded funny. It makes me think of goofy surfer dudes and Crush the turtle from Finding Nemo. Can't take offense when those kind of images are floating through my mind.

    I think it also works as a word that just expresses incredulity, admonishment, or even astonishment. "Duuuude."

    "Testosterone-flavored" emails and ads don't usually bother me. Actually, I can't even remember when I last ran across something that stood out in an "Ah, this copywriter is clearly targeting the male demographic!" sort of way. Now, if there was an obvious slam against women in the message somehow--yeah, then I'd get my hackles up.
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

    I just received another email from a male marketer who chose to use the subject line: "Dude". That's it. Just "Dude".
    I am put off by people who address their subscribers as informally and classless as this regardless male or female
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  • Profile picture of the author Jo W
    By way of there being this post-isn't it poor marketing that men who address their potential customers as "dude" haven't done their marketing homework-ie-know your customers!!! It's hard enough SELLING to them let alone upsetting them before you get a chance to! lol The cross-cultural differences are a mine-field! I cringe when I hear "dude"!! It's better to be boring than offensive. It reminds me of the Aussie ad campaign that asked o's visitors-"Where the bloody hell are ya?"-quaint colloquialism to SOME Aussies but offensive to the rest of Australia and all of the those potential tourists!! Knowing your potential customers is important! lol I laugh when I see the bikini model promos some guys use-in no way am I a prude-but it doesn't attract me to whatever they are selling!! lol ps. Zeus-we all knew you were kidding with the "get me a beer" bit!!.....we think! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author JannaCathrin
    I'm not offended by someone calling me Dude. In fact, I think it's quite funny. I live in Australia and everyone calls you Mate

    I think some people still target their language towards males because the early adopters of IM were mainly men, not as many women (generalisation without any proof, let me know if you disagree).

    I'm more offended by women setting up IM programs just for women as if they needed a special way to hold their hand or something. In my experience mixed environments work best because you can find more temperaments and talents to compliment your own.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

    Dennis, that's a fair point. But we've all accepted changes to social traditions where the sensibilities of a sector of society have been respected. This particular matter may be of little consequence to you or me, but I guess if the "actresses" themselves want to be called something different (perhaps because they don't see the need to differentiate their gender) then fair enough, really.

    The name confusion isn't sufficient reason on its own, IMO, as there are so many other professions where this potential confusion would also apply.

    And I've never confused Kim Basinger with a male actor.


    Frank
    I know Frank, that's why I said it wasn't an important example. Suffice it to say I like to know the reason behind changes in tradition. I learned to question things rather than just go along. You can say I'm a bit of an old-fashioned guy that way, but what do you expect from a grandfather? I've earned that right.

    I'm also really disappointed that Zeus is getting all the beer and I'm sitting here with nothing but a Coke.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Thanks everyone for your excellent feedback. Lots of very interesting points of view here.

      After reading them all, I guess one point that really stands out for me is that women strived for years to get recognized, and now we're going the other way, allowing our gender to be "watered down" by the attitudes I read here that are becoming so widely accepted.

      When I was in journalism college, the issue first came up for me about using he/she and the problems it presented to be politically correct. And as someone stated here, many people resort to "their" to accommodate both genders. This makes a lot of sense, actually, because you really are talking to both.

      And then came the salutations and Ms was introduced so that women weren't distinguished from married and single... again, to separate us from the men.

      Being British, I am aware of many friendly terms they use - like "mate". And then, "Ducks" , "Bird" and "Love" are a few that irked my mother, yet I found them to be rather endearing.

      Certainly, nationality has a lot to do with word choice and meanings. Mate never bothered me, perhaps because of my British heritage.

      In IM, there is that sense of being "left out" - the boys over there and the girls over here - and the girls can join if they want, but they won't have much influence. That's the impression I get, anyway. Women are insignificant to the mix.

      This isn't something that I've been harboring for years, although it does remind me of my youth, hoping to join in my brother's baseball games, only to be shoved into the outfield where nothing much ever happened.

      I was reminded of that by reading these responses. Initially, the thread resulted from the recent emails I've received, addressed to "Hey guys" and "Hey dude" and especially this last one that used DUDE in the subject line.

      As some of you have already pointed out, this would not inspire someone to read your email simply because it doesn't give any info about why the recipient should open it. And as someone else said, it was headed for the trash bin before I even opened it. And that's when I thought, what do other women Warriors think about this?

      Oh, and for the person who said that we're part of the Warrior clan here, a male term, let's not forget the Amazon Warrior Women. Or were they just fictional?

      Women have come a long way and while I don't intend to take a stand on it here, I think it's important that marketers of both genders consider their terminology in their marketing, unless they are marketing to men specifically. That would mean, offering something that only men would care about.

      In the meantime, I really like Valerie's idea... an IM membership site for women. Wonder if it would fly, or do we work better when we have the male influence to stir us up?

      and laurenceh:
      But ladies just to put a different spin on this, wouldn't you also be a little offended or put off by a subject line of "Sweetheart" or "Babe"?
      There is a difference between a male reference as all-encompassing and one with sexual overtones. They are two separate issues.

      Love your humor, gals! heehee.

      Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author Sara Young
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        In IM, there is that sense of being "left out" - the boys over there and the girls over here - and the girls can join if they want, but they won't have much influence. That's the impression I get, anyway. Women are insignificant to the mix.
        I really haven't had that experience, Sylvia.

        I pretty much feel like I have an equal opportunity in the IM world as the men out there.
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        • Profile picture of the author MurphSmurf
          I really don't feel excluded at all. Words like "dude", "guys", "Warrior", and "bootcamp" don't even cross my mind as being sexist. I mean, what's the female equivalent of 'bootcamp' anyway?

          There is no glass ceiling in IM. It doesn't matter whether the person behind the monitor is male or female. No one even has to disclose their gender if they don't want to. And I highly doubt anyone's NOT going to buy a product or service because "WTF, a woman created this. Women don't know anything about PPC!!"

          I don't know. I really haven't thought much about the subject, honestly.
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          • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
            Originally Posted by MurphSmurf View Post

            I really don't feel excluded at all. Words like "dude", "guys", "Warrior", and "bootcamp" don't even cross my mind as being sexist. I mean, what's the female equivalent of 'bootcamp' anyway?
            I'll address this since I mentioned the word bootcamp.

            Using language like "bootcamp" isn't sexist in any way (at least not as far as I can see). What I was referring to is that those who use those terms will attract more males, since more males than females are drawn to that language.

            There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. In fact, good marketers and copywriters SHOULD use language that "speaks" to their target market. So if a person's market responds to words like bootcamp, then that marketer should use them.

            What I was saying is that it never occurs to some male marketers that those sorts of words less commonly appeal to women. They actually don't understand why women aren't buying their products.

            It's because their copy doesn't speak to females.

            So, again -- bootcamp and similar words are not sexist. But if a marketer wants to attract females, he or she better consider the use of words like that carefully.

            Cheers,
            Becky

            P.S. Can anyone imagine Mydol putting out a commercial that says something like...

            Now you can:

            -- Grab your period by the throat and crush it into submission!

            -- Stomp on those cramps forever!

            -- Strangle your raging hormones until they're left gasping for breath and dying!



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            • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
              Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

              P.S. Can anyone imagine Mydol putting out a commercial that says something like...

              Now you can:

              -- Grab your period by the throat and crush it into submission!

              -- Stomp on those cramps forever!

              -- Strangle your raging hormones until they're left gasping for breath and dying!
              Becky, if ONLY that was possible, I'd be the first one in line buying that remedy! Damn, you got me all fired up with that copywriting!

              Wendy
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by WritingMadwoman View Post

                Becky, if ONLY that was possible, I'd be the first one in line buying that remedy! Damn, you got me all fired up with that copywriting!

                Wendy
                They DO have drugs that are supposed to reduce it to THREE periods, instead of 12!
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Thanks everyone for your excellent feedback. Lots of very interesting points of view here.

        After reading them all, I guess one point that really stands out for me is that women strived for years to get recognized, and now we're going the other way, allowing our gender to be "watered down" by the attitudes I read here that are becoming so widely accepted.
        Yeah, men and women are just DIFFERENT. There isn't anything bad about that.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        And then came the salutations and Ms was introduced so that women weren't distinguished from married and single... again, to separate us from the men.
        Yeah, Ms never REALLY made sense. The original idea, I'm sure, is that single women were sometimes discriminated against, and men couldn't be. But Ms showed you were tainted by an idea that could just as easily be discriminated against.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        In IM, there is that sense of being "left out" - the boys over there and the girls over here - and the girls can join if they want, but they won't have much influence. That's the impression I get, anyway. Women are insignificant to the mix.
        gee, NOBODY runs IM. Women can certainly figure everything out, and some men OPENLY ADMIT that they, themselves, are TECHNOPHOBIC. So any "old boys club" you imagine really is just a belief. There is no substance.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        This isn't something that I've been harboring for years, although it does remind me of my youth, hoping to join in my brother's baseball games, only to be shoved into the outfield where nothing much ever happened.
        Women weren't generally into sports, and generally weren't that good, so they treated females like they treated some of the worst males.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Oh, and for the person who said that we're part of the Warrior clan here, a male term, let's not forget the Amazon Warrior Women. Or were they just fictional?
        Supposedly, the amazonian women were real. There HAVE been cases of women leaders, and matriarchies, etc... anyway. Look at victoria, etc... But HEY, don't some feminists try to claim all women are gentle, and would end wars?!?!? Who knows, I couldn't find any evidence of a true matriarchal society. Someone claimed Matrilineal society was evidence of it, but that is just reasonable. The woman is the only one with a decent chance of really knowing the father, especially without a DNA test. So some cultures take her on HER word. The man's word means NOTHING!

        In any event, how many would ever really be leaders anyway? It doesn't matter if you are male or female, you probably won't be to that point.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Women have come a long way and while I don't intend to take a stand on it here, I think it's important that marketers of both genders consider their terminology in their marketing, unless they are marketing to men specifically. That would mean, offering something that only men would care about.
        I guess people may always find an insult, especially with dialects and mixtures of language, but it would be nice if people didn't assume a person was a certain sex, etc... HECK, some WOMEN use the term SHE when the person referred to could be MALE!

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ksburgess
      I only find it annoying when the JV/Affiliate incentives are all obviously targetting the male JV's. I mean, I just really don't care about getting an XBox360 or a huge television. Sorry. How about a $500 Amazon gift card. Or at least a car I can turn around and sell :p

      But it does irk me a little to see the JV/Affiliate copy that goes out obviously targeting the guys. I guess they have a reason, though. Watching JV leaderboards you see mostly guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Karen Keyes
    Hi Sylvia
    It's late here and I haven't read the whole thread but really wanted to reply before going to bed (geez now I'm rhyming...)

    I got a few of those emails too, with "Dude" in the email subject. I don't even open them lol they really tick me off. IMMEDIATE first thought when I see that subject is, "I'm not a dude!!" and it is an immediate turn off. But yeah, I don't know if it was so much as being offended by the word 'dude', or if it was more about questioning the maturity/tone of the email within (which I did not read).

    @Melanie - my day job is in IT also, I've been working in a male dominate group for over 11 years. I telecommute from home now - but used to work in the office for years. If one of my male coworkers called me dude it would be comical. If someone I don't know tries to launch a conversation with me by calling me dude, it's offensive.

    Anyhow, nothing I'm about to lose sleep over. And truly if this happened from a list that I regularly read, it wouldn't be something that made me want to unsubscribe (at least - the subject line would not cause me to unsubscribe.. the content.. well who knows!)

    Karen
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      ...gee, NOBODY runs IM. Women can certainly figure everything out, and some men OPENLY ADMIT that they, themselves, are TECHNOPHOBIC. So any "old boys club" you imagine really is just a belief. There is no substance
      Believe it... there IS an "old boys club" and likely always will be. Perhaps it's not as evident to you because you are a guy (unless Steve is short for a girl's name) and might have become desensitized to it. Most men I've met are totally unaware of it or are in denial. As a woman who's been around many, many years in too many work and leisure environments to mention, I can tell you most assuredly that it does exist just as it always has... and probably always will.

      Turning all references to humans in the masculine will guarantee it.

      So here's a question...

      Why not make references feminine instead? How would men feel about being gradually made transparent?

      As you state...
      ...HECK, some WOMEN use the term SHE when the person referred to could be MALE!
      But how often does that happen? Not often, I guarantee you.

      How would you feel if all your mail was referenced to "she"? Are you honestly not bothered by that? But then, you might not be, since men have not gone through the same struggles for acceptance and recognition that women have done over the years.

      I had not intended to make this a political issue, so this will be my last reference to it.

      Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Believe it... there IS an "old boys club" and likely always will be. Perhaps it's not as evident to you because you are a guy (unless Steve is short for a girl's name) and might have become desensitized to it. Most men I've met are totally unaware of it or are in denial. As a woman who's been around many, many years in too many work and leisure environments to mention, I can tell you most assuredly that it does exist just as it always has... and probably always will.
        Well, I AM a man. I don't even see how there COULD be an "old boys club" here unless it was BLATENT! Can you give an example? HECK, the OLD idea has morphed here to one where a person PAYS dearly for such access to some. Frankly, I wouldn't think they would care if you were some foreign girl that only spoke zulu. If the money is good....

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Turning all references to humans in the masculine will guarantee it.

        So here's a question...

        Why not make references feminine instead? How would men feel about being gradually made transparent?

        As you state...

        But how often does that happen? Not often, I guarantee you.
        MOST things are neuter, or say "he or she", etc... I have tried to always say s/he or something similar. And I will help out females just as much as males. Only a few days ago I helped out a woman here with her site. But try reading a book on improving memory, or business, etc... Maybe even PROGRAMMING that HAPPENS to be written by a woman, but NOT even targeted towards women, and you ARE likely to see SHE!(It may say something like "If one imagines items to be at a location she has been to before, she may find it easier to recall them in the future. If the memories relate to events that have been meaningful to her, she will be even more able to remember them.") I have seen that happen a LOT! Heck, maybe even more frequently than books written by males in the same subjects say he.

        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        How would you feel if all your mail was referenced to "she"? Are you honestly not bothered by that? But then, you might not be, since men have not gone through the same struggles for acceptance and recognition that women have done over the years.

        I had not intended to make this a political issue, so this will be my last reference to it.
        No, I DON'T like it. I ALSO don't like messages that imply that I am worried about the size of my "stick", etc.... I ALSO don't like the word JUNK used to refer to a part of the male anatomy, etc... MAN(Used for EMPHASIS and popular in the 70s), I have seen a LOT of things I wish I never had seen.

        I am not advocating that email should refer to gender AT ALL! 9 times out of ten, when they do, it is GARBAGE! I mean THINK about it! EVEN if they sell you lingerie, they don't have to refer to gender. AND, even some MEN apparently buy it for women in their lives.

        STILL, there is a BIG difference between an "old boys club", and a some referring to you in a way that you perceive to be masculine.

        BTW I doubt anyone would consider this political. Besides, we ARE being civil. And I would TRULY love to understand your point, or convince you of mine.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author sylviad
          Steve,

          I never said the "old boys club" is here on the Forum, specifically, but it most likely does exist to some degree. Obviously, I have limited access to see whether or not that is true. In "my" world... offline, working in offices, meeting a variety of people in a multitude of situations, it has become painfully obvious that there is such a club. We are not always treated as equals in many areas.

          I can give you a few very simple examples:

          As a journalist trying to cover events, I've encountered top-level brass who have physically turned their backs on me to address the male journalists, clearly showing that they would prefer to talk to them, despite the fact that I was the one who asked the questions.

          As an offline salesperson selling web design services, I've not gotten the sale because they prefer to talk to the men in the company. Yes, they were courteous to me, but when it came to signing on the dotted line, they opted to seek a male contact. Consequently, the sales went to someone other than me, despite all the effort I put into educating the potential client on this new marketing arena.

          Bosses have sent me on undesirable assignments and given the best to the male reporters, or the male salespeople.

          After awhile, it becomes very obvious. It's everywhere - from traffic cops to bosses to marketers. Subtle it might be, but it survives.

          Sylvia
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

            Steve,

            I never said the "old boys club" is here on the Forum, specifically, but it most likely does exist to some degree. Obviously, I have limited access to see whether or not that is true. In "my" world... offline, working in offices, meeting a variety of people in a multitude of situations, it has become painfully obvious that there is such a club. We are not always treated as equals in many areas.

            I can give you a few very simple examples:

            As a journalist trying to cover events, I've encountered top-level brass who have physically turned their backs on me to address the male journalists, clearly showing that they would prefer to talk to them, despite the fact that I was the one who asked the questions.

            As an offline salesperson selling web design services, I've not gotten the sale because they prefer to talk to the men in the company. Yes, they were courteous to me, but when it came to signing on the dotted line, they opted to seek a male contact. Consequently, the sales went to someone other than me, despite all the effort I put into educating the potential client on this new marketing arena.

            Bosses have sent me on undesirable assignments and given the best to the male reporters, or the male salespeople.

            After awhile, it becomes very obvious. It's everywhere - from traffic cops to bosses to marketers. Subtle it might be, but it survives.

            Sylvia
            Yeah, that survives. 8-( And sometimes, admittedly a minority of the time, MEN suffer. Some traffic cops and marketers are NICER to women. And there ARE government projects and the like that will go to ANYONE but white males. So they discriminate against ME, but NOT YOU!

            WHO KNOWS, that IS changing somewhat. HEY, look at this website that I heard about on the news and several other places: Lissa Explains it All -- HTML Help and Tutorial for Kids It was done by a little girl.

            Still, I thought you were talking about IM. OK, I CONCEDE! ELSEWHERE you may have trouble because you are female. Sometimes(like showers, competitions, etc...) it makes sense. Sometimes(like businesses), it is because of prejudices, etc...

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
            Originally Posted by MurphSmurf View Post

            There is no glass ceiling in IM. It doesn't matter whether the person behind the monitor is male or female. No one even has to disclose their gender if they don't want to. And I highly doubt anyone's NOT going to buy a product or service because "WTF, a woman created this. Women don't know anything about PPC!!"

            I don't know. I really haven't thought much about the subject, honestly.
            I used to agree with your viewpoint, but then something happened that changed my mind to this viewpoint:

            Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

            In IM, there is that sense of being "left out" - the boys over there and the girls over here - and the girls can join if they want, but they won't have much influence. That's the impression I get, anyway. Women are insignificant to the mix.
            The event was the "coming out" of James Chartrand, who runs Men With Pens. Long story short, she was a single mother struggling to make ends meet and couldn't seem to do well making money online. She changed her pen name to a male pen name and suddenly got a lot more work and respect. The full post that I read can be found here, and I highly recommend reading it if you have time. It's a really interesting post.

            Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

            In the meantime, I really like Valerie's idea... an IM membership site for women. Wonder if it would fly, or do we work better when we have the male influence to stir us up?
            I love this idea, too.

            Now, on to my main response...

            I'm not that bothered by it anymore. I've always spent most of my time hanging around guys, and I had an older brother. I played with Lego, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't play-sword-fight with my brother sometimes, even to this day. I play TCGs and D&D, can pwn guys in PVP Runescape worlds, and know a bit about sports, too. So... I'm really used to that form of language, and probably as susceptible as a lot of guys to testosterone-pumped sales letters. That said, I'm a critical reader period, so I don't tend to like any sales-y emails, whether they address me with "Hey dude!" or "What up, my homegirl?"
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            • Profile picture of the author sylviad
              Thanks for that link, Zabrina. "James" hit the nail right on the head as evidenced by the responses she's getting to her post. The thing is, the male dominant society HAS been going on for so long. It's become as natural as breathing, which is why it is so often overlooked.

              Maybe Steve will get something from that article.

              Like you, I have gravitated to the male contingency throughout my life. They always seemed to offer more fun than the girls, and they were so much easier to get along with - they just seemed to have a far more exciting life. It might have been the fact that I was raised with my brother and hung out with him and his friends that made the option more favorable and natural for me. Getting my head under a car hood and the underside of a vehicle just made sense. I got "comfortable" with their unique and colorful language.

              Even Steve's sexual references don't affect me one way or another, but it's hardly appropriate for an IM forum, and totally unnecessary.

              Still, messages addressed to appeal to men are not likely to get my attention in the way the sender probably hopes.

              Sylvia
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

                Thanks for that link, Zabrina. "James" hit the nail right on the head as evidenced by the responses she's getting to her post. The thing is, the male dominant society HAS been going on for so long. It's become as natural as breathing, which is why it is so often overlooked.

                Maybe Steve will get something from that article.
                Well, she DOES say that she didn't want to be associated with the other company, etc... She won't reveal her real name. Frankly, this isn't a very scientific test. So she changed the company name, apparently now makes it sound like a company instead of one person, and presumably her ENTIRE name. That is a lot to change to figure that only the sex changed things.

                HECK, my step MOTHER is OBVIOUSLY female, GRANTED her name could be male, but the spelling of her name is one generally only females use. And yeah, it is her real name, She has employees that are ALL female, from what I can tell, and she gets like $10,000+ PER ARTICLE! There IS a lot of personal communication, and her client list extends from 3M to "Xinhua China, Ltd."! She has about 240 clients listed on her website. And many are probably companies you know. Of course, the name of her company only says what the company does, and it says "us", and "we" throughout.

                And if someone REALLY wants a man to do the work THAT bad, the name is a funny way to do it. Look at "Michael Learned"! The name LOOKS, and EVEN SOUNDS male, but she ISN'T! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Learned

                Even Steve's sexual references don't affect me one way or another, but it's hardly appropriate for an IM forum, and totally unnecessary.
                WHAT sexual references? HOW did I say anything inappropriate?

                Still, messages addressed to appeal to men are not likely to get my attention in the way the sender probably hopes.

                Sylvia
                Like I said, I'm generally not so happy about them either.

                Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
      So, Chris... where did you say that mole was, exactly?
      Umm... I'm afraid to say anything else because I'm afraid of what you might say... uh, I mean... "Hi! This is Chris and you have reached my Warrior Forum post. I'm afraid I'm not available to take your post right now but if you leave me your name and Warrior Forum ID, I will return your post as soon as possible. Thanks and you have a great whatever it is wherever you are!" Whooo!
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    • Profile picture of the author Lorraine2
      It has been interesting reading some of the posts in this thread. I am a woman, living in the UK and a baby boomer. I dont use the term 'dude' ever and am unlikely to.

      I try not to focus on being "politically correct" what ever that means. As a former social worker I worked in an arena where many of the things we did for our clients were considered to be "politically correct" My experience was that people who use that term usually used it as a form of dismissal - usually because they were not affected by the thing they decided was politically correct.

      Maybe it's my age, but I think generic ways of addressing people could be considered disrespectful by some. As I am not 20 I don't want to be addressed as if I am. I agree with one of the previous posts where they did not think it was appropriate to use language that could not be considered business like - which if you are an internet marketer that is what it is.

      I also understand that for some young people they may not understand why some of us older people may want more formality as that is not what they are used to.

      This is a difficult one, and I have not worked it out yet! How do you build the know like and trust if you immediately alienate people with your subject line?

      Lorraine
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
      This thread has opened my eyes considerably.

      I live in Wales in the UK and 'Dude' is not in the vocabulary.

      Only once have I been addressed as 'Dude' in all my years on the Internet and I thought that I was being derided. If you are a man and you were to address another man as 'Dude' in my part of Wales, then you might experience a bruised face, or perhaps worse... Ok, if you are a woman, then you'll get away with it.

      Welsh men are very understanding where women are concerned unless they play rugby better than we can!

      This thread just shows how careful one needs to be when marketing to other cultures, regardless of how similar the language might be.

      Jeff.
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  • Profile picture of the author YourProfessional
    My friends and I call each other "dude" all the time - and we're all girls. However, I did catch this on from my brother.

    Most of the emails I get (emails I'm subscribed for) don't give off the impression that they are gender-targeted, to be frank. Hehe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sara Young
    Doesn't bother me at all. IM is still a male-dominated field, so that's what naturally happens.

    When I went to college I was one of 11 females in a class of 200, so I am so used to it I wouldn't have even noticed it if you didn't bring it up :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Denise Ashurst
      Originally Posted by Sara Young View Post

      Doesn't bother me at all. IM is still a male-dominated field, so that's what naturally happens.

      When I went to college I was one of 11 females in a class of 200, so I am so used to it I wouldn't have even noticed it if you didn't bring it up :-)
      Good Lord Sara, You have been brainwashed haven't you! Come visit your sisters more often ; )

      Nothing 'natural' about egoism - marketing men have the choice to over-ride the testosterone raging around their systems and their under-developed hippocampus! ; )
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by ishansoni View Post

    Even in some of the videos, people start out by saying "Hey Guys..."

    I guess the main reason for this is because most of the people in this industry are males :-)
    Well, hey guys is a little different because it is referring to a group.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Terri LC
    With so many women coming online and providing their own brand of marketing, I'm surprised this segment is often overlooked. Anyone who has an online business of ANY SORT is automatically an Internet Marketer by necessity, and can benefit from the IM & MMO niches.

    I like the Katie Freilings, the Maria Andross', and so many of you here who have a great following of both dudes and dudettes.

    Buying is often an emotional decision (justified with logic later) - and women are the major decision-makers when it comes to spending $$$ - even online!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Had to think about this one. Realized I don't open any emails that have the words

      dude, guy, babe, gal, chick
      in-your-face or lewd/profanity or suggestive type subject lines
      did you get this
      just in case you didn't see this
      only XXX days/hours/minutes left
      don't miss out
      oops...sent the wrong ...(whatever)
      ...and a few other phrases

      Clearly, there are a lot of unopened emails. My choice and I exercise it.

      More than one of those titles from a list owner - and I open one email long enough to unsubscribe.

      It's a matter of setting your personal boundaries. I don't control what others choose to use for their subject lines - but I do control what I open and read.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Bootcamp refers to an ordeal, or something that really gets you started. If anything, it is military, and I believe they use the same term with women in the military.

    Frankly, I don't see how you can say a male would be any more attracted to something called bootcamp.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Bootcamp refers to an ordeal, or something that really gets you started. If anything, it is military, and I believe they use the same term with women in the military.

      Frankly, I don't see how you can say a male would be any more attracted to something called bootcamp.

      Steve
      Neither do I. From my understanding of boot camp, it's kind of like an introductory program for recruits into the military. Back when, it would have been relevant to males before females were in the military, but it doesn't say "male" to me.

      Oh, and BTW Steve, just to clarify a point... you were the one that mentioned "old boys' club".

      But regardless of whether or not there is one, obviously some women have broken through into the male dominated business world and become quite successful. Interesting to note that your mother has an all-female staff. Why might that be?

      The question remains: does using male-oriented subject lines and salutations lose you clients and leads? From some of the answers here, it would appear that it would.

      The next question is: is that loss sufficient enough to make you change your marketing approach, especially in your email campaigns, so that they are less male-targeted, assuming that your offer is suited to both genders.

      On the other side of the coin, would women marketers get more sales and leads if they began using male-targeted subject lines and salutations, again assuming that the offer is suited to men, or would it alienate their female recipients?

      Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        The question remains: does using male-oriented subject lines and salutations lose you clients and leads? From some of the answers here, it would appear that it would.

        The next question is: is that loss sufficient enough to make you change your marketing approach, especially in your email campaigns, so that they are less male-targeted, assuming that your offer is suited to both genders.

        On the other side of the coin, would women marketers get more sales and leads if they began using male-targeted subject lines and salutations, again assuming that the offer is suited to men, or would it alienate their female recipients?

        Sylvia
        This has been a very interesting thread! Personally I think it's not a smart move to gear your promotions and communications just to one gender or the other if you know that you do have both sexes on your list.

        My lists are probably 60-40% female to male - maybe even a bit higher population of women. But I would never address all of my readers with a gender-specific term. Occasionally I might send through something "just for the ladies" or "this is for you, guys!" but almost always I use their name or nothing at all.

        Another point to consider, I've noticed nowadays that the term "Dude" is often used as an expression of speech rather than an actual form of address - like, "Dude, did you see that car?" or "Dude, that is so cool!" It's used almost like "Whoa" or "Check it out" - like they aren't addressing one person in particular, just calling attention to something. In my area I've heard that more and more often, especially from the younger folks.

        I didn't see the email you got Sylvia, so I'm not sure if it was that type of thing, or if everyone on the list was actually being addressed as "dude". In any case your preferences are valid - in fact maybe it's not such a bad idea to send a note to that marketer and explain your feelings on it. He might not even realize that some of his subscribers feel offended or left out by his terminology and he may be losing money because of it.

        Wendy
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        • Profile picture of the author Leanne King
          Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

          You chicks need to relax. Let the men decide what you should be called. Just get on back in the kitchen and make us something tasty to eat. And bring us another beer. Hurry up now.

          John <running as fast as he can>
          John, you are a v. brave man! I guess I'm lucky coz my dude is always in the kitchen making me something tasty to eat

          Back to topic

          I get emails calling me dude and it doesn't bother me one iota. I call everyone guys to me dude is the same sort of informal greeting. I'm only interested in the content of the email not the salutation although I really hate being called {first name fix}
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        • Profile picture of the author sylviad
          Originally Posted by WritingMadwoman View Post

          This has been a very interesting thread! Personally I think it's not a smart move to gear your promotions and communications just to one gender or the other if you know that you do have both sexes on your list. ...
          Wendy
          Of course, the best marketing approach is to address list members by their own names whenever possible. Seems to me that was Marketing 101. I'm much less likely to read mail that is addressed to Friend, Fellow Marketer, Dude or any other pronoun. It tells me that I probably didn't sign up to their lists or they are not smart enough to figure out how to address their ARs to individuals, ie: [[firstname]].

          In fact, if my name is not at the top somewhere, I will zap it immediately. I almost did that the other day to a message that came from a list I did join... finger poised, and then I noticed who it was from and read it.

          You can be certain many recipients reject non-personal mail, it's like getting mail at home addressed to "dear recipient" or "dear homeowner" or "dear tenant". If they don't know who I am, they have nothing to say that I want to hear because I know they are trying to sell me something that I probably don't want or need.

          It's sad when your own town hall sends you such mail. What? They don't know who I am? I've lived here 30+ years!

          Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Neither do I. From my understanding of boot camp, it's kind of like an introductory program for recruits into the military. Back when, it would have been relevant to males before females were in the military, but it doesn't say "male" to me.

        Oh, and BTW Steve, just to clarify a point... you were the one that mentioned "old boys' club".

        But regardless of whether or not there is one, obviously some women have broken through into the male dominated business world and become quite successful. Interesting to note that your mother has an all-female staff. Why might that be?

        The question remains: does using male-oriented subject lines and salutations lose you clients and leads? From some of the answers here, it would appear that it would.

        The next question is: is that loss sufficient enough to make you change your marketing approach, especially in your email campaigns, so that they are less male-targeted, assuming that your offer is suited to both genders.

        On the other side of the coin, would women marketers get more sales and leads if they began using male-targeted subject lines and salutations, again assuming that the offer is suited to men, or would it alienate their female recipients?

        Sylvia
        Well, I said "old boys club" to basically capture the idea of what I felt you were referring to.

        I think that an honest subject line would get more relevant response. This idea of saying "HEY BRO","DUDE", "Hey friend" is just DUMB.

        As for slang, etc... I think it is crazy how people make WHOLE FILMS LOADED with garbage and THEN they go back and dub, etc..., to remove it for other venues. Why not simply remove the terms in the script to begin with!?!?

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
    This use of actor for both genders is kind of odd. Not for blending genders but for the fact that the Academy of Motion Pictures doesn't use it. There are no best female or male actor awards, it is still Best Actress and Best Actor.

    When your own organization defines you by gender, what's the point?
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Sheesh, my 8-year old daughter just walked in and said to my husband, "Dude, look at this." Out of the mouths of babes and children...

    So, I just have one question:

    Why are so many men making posts on a thread that is specifically entitled "Question for Women Warriors..." ?!
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      Sheesh, my 8-year old daughter just walked in and said to my husband, "Dude, look at this." Out of the mouths of babes and children...

      So, I just have one question:

      Why are so many men making posts on a thread that is specifically entitled "Question for Women Warriors..." ?!
      Good question, TerrieS. I was wondering the same thing myself. But if they're here to learn something, it could be good that their curiosity got the better of them.

      Sylvia
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      Sheesh, my 8-year old daughter just walked in and said to my husband, "Dude, look at this." Out of the mouths of babes and children...

      So, I just have one question:

      Why are so many men making posts on a thread that is specifically entitled "Question for Women Warriors..." ?!
      HEY, we're naturally curious, and want to see what you gals are up to. 8-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Olga Schipilow
    Hi Sylvia,

    Don't let it bother you. It is not worth to waste any time thinking about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jo W
    Hey Seasoned! NOW you know what we are up to on here! Talking about periods! How's ya curiousity now?? lol
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Jo W View Post

      Hey Seasoned! NOW you know what we are up to on here! Talking about periods! How's ya curiousity now?? lol
      I've seen worse. HEY, I offered a suggestion. I CAN understand how you gals can be upset at something affecting like 20% of your year though.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Thanks for that link, Zabrina. "James" hit the nail right on the head as evidenced by the responses she's getting to her post. The thing is, the male dominant society HAS been going on for so long. It's become as natural as breathing, which is why it is so often overlooked.

        Maybe Steve will get something from that article.

        Like you, I have gravitated to the male contingency throughout my life. They always seemed to offer more fun than the girls, and they were so much easier to get along with - they just seemed to have a far more exciting life. It might have been the fact that I was raised with my brother and hung out with him and his friends that made the option more favorable and natural for me. Getting my head under a car hood and the underside of a vehicle just made sense. I got "comfortable" with their unique and colorful language.

        Even Steve's sexual references don't affect me one way or another, but it's hardly appropriate for an IM forum, and totally unnecessary.

        Still, messages addressed to appeal to men are not likely to get my attention in the way the sender probably hopes.

        Sylvia
        I agree with you about thinking that guys seemed more fun and had a more exciting life. Heck, I still hang out with more guys than girls for the same reasons. ...plus, I don't particularly care about having perfect makeup or thirty pairs of high heels, so plenty of girls don't like hanging around with me, either.

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        I've seen worse. HEY, I offered a suggestion. I CAN understand how you gals can be upset at something affecting like 20% of your year though.

        Steve
        Maybe up to 25%... believe me, the thought of exactly how much of your year is affected occurs frequently. Also, not all of us can take those meds, for various reasons. Plus, even if we do take 'em, some of us are still affected by mood swings, etc, that make us terrifying to be around.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jo W
    True! lol Thanks Steve Have a great night..or is that day for you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Denise Ashurst
    OK at the risk of overkill... I got all fired up here... this is my specialist subject! I will keep this to a bare minimum, but anyone wanting to find out some sources of solid information about these topics might want to consider an RSS feed of my blog, where occasionally I get fired up about this stuff - like today funny enough...check it out ; )
    OK HEre it is...apologies fo rnot using the forum properly..I am new here and learning..

    MurphSmurf - there was a huge debate raging in the blogospere recently about James, very interesting too and worth looking into so you don't become blind to women getting side-lined. Let's face it you must have been lucky, because most women experience being ignored or undermined or devalued by men. It's how things are sadly and annoyingly! (So much research, so little time!)
    Zabrina - thanks for bringing this up; I was going to talk about it too!
    Seasoned - "Hey Guys" What about Hey Guys n Grrls? And oh my gosh Seasoned... What is that about Ms? Listen Malcom X and the Black Panthers changed agendas by how thye referred to themselves. One day that distinction between married woman and single woman in red tape will be an anachronism and roll on the day! I didn't know you were a guy, but boy could I tell! You are probably still fairly young and naive or incredibly arrogant, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Meantime, try not to be so defensive and listen to what women here are telling you is their experience, because funny enough its reality for them! I could go on here...but will finish on this point, how about you try some medication to make you less inclined to let your testosterone rush in where angels fear to tread....ever thought about the impact of consistently taking drugs on your body? Hmm? (And 20% of the year? Try THIRTY or 95% with your testosterone levels!)) Ok have said enough, now I am just gonna ignore you from now on and we'll get along a lot better that way : )
    Writing Madwoman - Gearing promotions to gender; there is a place for niche marketing, but agree there is also a balance to be struck. We could say that also we do exclude the disabled and this is a market as yet completely untapped by INTERNET MARKETING. So many systems getting started now to break through barriers, but exclusion of e.g. hard of hearing and visually impaired is still an issue(...one day...)
    KS Bugess - couldn't agree more about the leader boards and boys toys!
    My final comment... if guys treat me like I am invisible, I don't buy from them...so anyone want to band together and re-make all Mike Dillard's stuff, 'cause much as I love hime, sheesh, he is such a guy's guy, try as he might to be inclusive and wonderful as his content is... his imagery needs some work! (Are you listening Mike?)
    I buy from girls whenever I get the choice, 'cause I figure their economic empowerment adds to the sum total of gender rebalance. This is how minority communities develop, be they Afro Caribbean, Jewish, Chinese, whatever. Although we are half the world, eocnomically we ar FAR from that...
    PS It's Intrenational Women's Day soon... maybe we should put our thinking caps on on that Ladies IM forum idea. It doesn't have to be exclusive, but I have thought about this a few times myself....... I am up for efforts being made.... You know where I am grrls (I don't expect the guys to put the effort in here -prove me wrong guys!) : )
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by Denise Ashurst View Post

      OK at the risk of overkill... I got all fired up here... this is my specialist subject! I will keep this to a bare minimum, but anyone wanting to find out some sources of solid information about these topics might want to consider an RSS feed of my blog, where occasionally I get fired up about this stuff - like today funny enough...check it out ; )
      OK HEre it is...apologies fo rnot using the forum properly..I am new here and learning..

      Writing Madwoman - Gearing promotions to gender; there is a place for niche marketing, but agree there is also a balance to be struck. We could say that also we do exclude the disabled and this is a market as yet completely untapped by INTERNET MARKETING. So many systems getting started now to break through barriers, but exclusion of e.g. hard of hearing and visually impaired is still an issue(...one day...)...
      Thank you for your extensive input, Denise.

      It is important to consider far more than men/women - and while this is a little off topic, I just want to respond to your comment.

      I used to volunteer with a local organization, then named the "... Mentally Retarded Association". That is such a negative and insulting term today. It took me a bit of time to get used to not using that expression and through the various changes it has gone through, I'm unsure now what was the final term. The latest title for the organization is "Community Living", removing the term from the name entirely. However, we still hear the expression used to reference someone who is a bit of an idiot - or not. Some American politician used the term recently, and then had to apologize extensively. Can he ever recover? Who knows. It depends on how forgiving people are.

      The world has changed considerably... we now accept people of all races, colors and creeds... religion is still a bit rocky though. The handicapped no longer have to hide behind closed doors.

      And... women began to move to the forefront back in the '20s. I don't think we should lose the ground we've established by ignoring how the English language insists on merging us with the opposite sex.

      Mergers are good, but not always.

      Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author Denise Ashurst
        Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

        Thank you for your extensive input, Denise.

        I don't think we should lose the ground we've established by ignoring how the English language insists on merging us with the opposite sex.

        Mergers are good, but not always.

        Sylvia
        Hey Sylviad
        Couldn't agree more. Here's one where maybe there's room for some merging ...
        Did you know that there is no gender equivalent to the word 'misogyny' in the dictionary... I am waiting for 'misterogyny' to filter through to the Oxford crowd! ; )

        Here's another lesser known fact - except amongst the German ladies - I learnt it back in school and it irritated then... German have three 'genders' for the word 'the' and a lot of the time, you can kind of understand how they became masculine, feminine or neutral - if there ever was any rhyme or reason - BUT The word for 'womb' is masculine! Now what is that about? Is it a) because it's fruits are the possession of German Barons who want to pass their wealth and estate to a named heir b) German men were so jealous of women's creative power back in the mists of time, when women no longer ruled the world, that they stole this from our German sisters? c) Wombs are such damn powerful things, they must have been invented by one of the male Germanic Gods - not even Frigg / Freyja could have made such a thing, she being only a girl?

        Language, hey! Can't live with it, can't live without it!

        Do you think if we have ladettes as well as lads (UK at least), we should perhaps press for the dudette derivative of dude? Oh what the hell, I'll let the poets and hard core theorists and intellectuals fight the word fight... I'll just watch the warrior battles from the linguistic sidelines after my earlier battle surge... Too many other wars of diplomacy ahead in the on-going wrestle for equal inclusion!

        Watching all such stuff with interest here....... : ) Let's hear it for and from the ladies!
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Hi Denise

          Originally Posted by Denise Ashurst View Post

          Did you know that there is no gender equivalent to the word 'misogyny' in the dictionary... I am waiting for 'misterogyny' to filter through to the Oxford crowd! ; )

          No need to wait..there's already a perfectly serviceable word in the dictionary. "Misandry" means "hatred of men" and is the exact gender equivalent of "misogyny".

          HTH


          Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author Tiffany Holbrook
    I probably would not have opened it either. I do not think that is a good marketing job.
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  • Profile picture of the author lisag
    Originally Posted by sylviad View Post

    I'm wondering how many women are put off by email that seems clearly targeted to men - simply by their subject line or salutation. And no, I don't mean emails promoting viagra or other male-related product.

    I just received another email from a male marketer who chose to use the subject line: "Dude". That's it. Just "Dude".
    It doesn't bother me. When I'm bidding on writing projects, I see a lot that start out "I'm looking for a guy...", or "I need a man to..." . I just bump my fee by a few dollars to offset the ignorance and bid anyway
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    • Profile picture of the author eshera
      I must confess that when I see "dude" in the subject, I automatically assume it is from a younger marketer, so I am already tainted a bit before I even read it, didn't really think of it as good or bad, just a knee-jerk reaction.

      On a side note, I have also been in IT for a long time, all guys, I am the only gal, but before that I bartended to pay my bills, also mostly guys so not strange for me.

      However, at one of the larger corporate business I contracted at some years ago, there was a very pleasant fellow, Bill that arrived as myself usually quite early, around 6. He was a few years older than I, but always said, "Good morning, Ladies!" to me and the other gals as we got into the elevator. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I always gave him a big smile and said, "Well, good morning to you, too, William."

      One of the women apparently was offended and complained to HR. He was warned and did not do again. Well, one morning he "slipped" and said it again, just habit, was what I was thinking...

      Well, over 25 years at that place and he was let go. I am sure there were more details, not my business, however I found it very sad, very sad indeed. I guess we are not even allowed to be polite anymore.

      Just not right.
      -she
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingSPY
    Silviad -
    If I were a woman - I might take offense for someone to assume only men were Internet Marketers, but that's me. I'm a guy!

    However, I was at a large IM event a few months ago and out of nearly 650 audience members - only two were women. Someone asked the speaker - if he knew of any women in Internet Marketing - he pointed to the two women on the front row. (they were unable to be seen by those in the back row).

    This might give you an idea of the mentality of male Internet Marketers - they think mostly men own online businesses. Male audience members usually dominate most IM seminars. Why this is . . . I don't know. I sure would like to see more women involved.

    With that said - I've noticed many "surfer" type morons in California call men and women dudes. I don't know if they know the difference. LOL

    Happy Trails!
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    I LOVE this whole thread! I am 55, and have been in 'male dominated' industries my whole life - and I don't give a hoot whether they call me 'duuuuude', 'hey you' or 'Ms. Wigdahl' as long as they sign the darned contract and close the deal.

    But then maybe that's because I've been on straight commission and/or self-employed most of my life?? Kinda changes those gender attitudes a bit, I think......

    Melody
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  • Profile picture of the author BiancaRaven
    What I find highly amusing is the sheer number of male clients I have wanting me to write articles/ebooks/content aimed at men as though it was written by men - yet they're hiring me to write it for them and I'm obviously not even close to being male.

    There's nothing funnier than writing about 'how to pick up women' for a male site from a man's perspective as though you're a man when you're really a woman giggling with your girlfriends about your latest gig
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  • Profile picture of the author unknownpray
    Actually males are in majority in all these fields or industreis that's why.
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  • Profile picture of the author vfelcett
    I honestly don't have any problem with this... Sometimes I even say "dude" whether to my female friends or males lol... I think it's just a general term...

    Anyhow, I think that someone saying "dude" anyhow when trying to market professionally isn't really being professional and maybe should refer from using that greeting LOL.
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  • Profile picture of the author eaglechick
    Veronica

    I see from your post count you might be new to the forum - welcome!
    If you hang around in the forum you will quickly get to now the regulars - Zeuss is one of them - always provides us with a good chuckle and our "dose of humor" in other words :

    Zeuss was only joking around!
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  • Profile picture of the author magill
    I sometimes get those, too. I get tickled more than annoyed and assume they are skaters
    in their offline lives, or they have watched "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" one time too often.
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    • Profile picture of the author Votoshka
      Well the word Dude... I use it (I don't know why...) occasionally. And often find myself calling my kids "dude" (yes, girl as well as boys), so being called Dude doesn't worry me.

      Mind you... that's possibly WHY I call people dude now??

      I do realize most IM people are men, but it's never really worried me, as most stuff I've done has been in at least semi-male dominated fields (my last job I was the only female in my department with about 10 guys, so I got used to it).
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      • Profile picture of the author sylviad
        Originally Posted by Votoshka View Post

        Well the word Dude... I use it (I don't know why...) occasionally. And often find myself calling my kids "dude" (yes, girl as well as boys), so being called Dude doesn't worry me.

        Mind you... that's possibly WHY I call people dude now??

        I do realize most IM people are men, but it's never really worried me, as most stuff I've done has been in at least semi-male dominated fields (my last job I was the only female in my department with about 10 guys, so I got used to it).
        To my thinking, someone has to stand up for the English language, since the dictionary clearly states that the term "dude" refers to a man.

        For those of us who know that, being called such is at the very least a mild insult. Yes, I know - slang, terms of endearment and all that. If you want to use it amongst your friends and family, that's one thing. Using it in a business communication is another.

        I, for one, often use the term "guys", simply because it's such a common reference, but if I'm sending an email to encourage business owners to buy from me, I'm certainly not going to insult them 1) by now knowing their real name, 2) by not bothering to find out, because it's just not important, and 3) by potentially calling "gals" guys or dudes.

        It's just common sense and good business practice, as well as the professional way to do business.

        If you like the term "dude" so much, maybe this will make you think. According to the Heritage Dictionary, Dude is also described as 1. an Easterner or city person who vacations on a Western ranch, 2. a conspicuously overdressed man; a dandy.

        From my understanding, dude became popular amongst California surfers and the like. I'm at a loss to see how the term 'dude' would begin to describe a surfer or beach bums. Overdressed dandies? Hm.

        Although I can see how it would relate to a well-dressed city man trying to fit into a ranch setting. How that relates to IM, I have no idea.

        Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    I just look at this as a great oppertunity , from what Iam seeing more an more the women are not as many but we do seem to have far more "stick-to-it-ness" and we implement and take action far quicker.

    I guess if there was a way to seperate ones list easily into male and female their could be a great oppertunity to target more specifically
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Such targeting could be accomplished by setting up one opt-in page for women only and one for men only. The problem would be ensuring that the visitors sign up to the right list.

      Maybe if you add something to your squeeze page that would specify "women" or "men" only - perhaps a freebie that only one sex would want. Like, a report on women's health on the women's page and a report on men's health issues on a men's squeeze page. On each page, indicate "men, sign up here" leading to the men's page and "women, sign up here" leading to the women's page.

      But then, that would create significantly more work.

      Far easier is to have them choose sex on the opt-in form as a prerequisite to submit. Then, filter out only males/females for specific targeted mailings.

      See, there is a way, if the marketer is willing. It depends on the product being sold. Otherwise, simply addressing them by their first name (as they provide on the opt-in form) would suffice to a large degree, especially when the product is aimed at a generic audience.

      I just received another email today, "Hey, guys!" Does he not know me? I've been on his list for some time now. He concludes with "I appreciate you." REElly! :rolleyes:

      I might have said this earlier in this thread, but if I get email addressed to anyone but me by name, I zap it without reading - UNLESS I happen to spot something familiar.

      How many readers do you think those marketers are missing? A lot, I bet.

      Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author SmallFry
    Lol, I've kind of noticed that, too!It doesn't really bother me much, though...as long as the emails (or sales letters, reviews, whatever) are of value.That's pretty much all I'm worried about.I do get the feeling that maybe there are alot more men in IM than us, so maybe it's just habit.I doubt that they're trying to offend us, you know?
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by SmallFry View Post

      Lol, I've kind of noticed that, too!It doesn't really bother me much, though...as long as the emails (or sales letters, reviews, whatever) are of value.That's pretty much all I'm worried about.I do get the feeling that maybe there are alot more men in IM than us, so maybe it's just habit.I doubt that they're trying to offend us, you know?
      Quite true. I'm sure it is not intentional. Perhaps they need to have it pointed out to them, otherwise they're not likely to think of it.

      Many years ago, I worked for an association that made me realize that my language was offending some people - clients of that association, for example. I go out of my way now to avoid calling anyone retarded. But it's how we talked back in the 60s.

      Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author fire3fly
    Hi Sylvia,

    It is exactly the kind of email that I don't open unless it's a really good offer LOL.

    This simple thread should be an eye opener for email marketers who tend to make this mistake.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      You're probably right, Fire3fly. Maybe I should change the title to something like, "Male marketers, are you sure you aren't offending women? just to get them to read this thread.

      They are a curious bunch, you know. Although it's addressed to Warrior Women, several men have entered this forbidden territory, throwing all caution to the wind. And some even got bit!

      Sylvia
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        This past school year, our kindergartner (the one wearing the headband and holding the football) came home one day saying "dude" about every 4th word. Everyone in sight was "dude". It lasted about a week. One more day and the adoption papers would have been finalized. Lucky little "dude".
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  • Profile picture of the author Shawn Gourley
    I am a woman and I can't say that I would use dude, but in my writings and post sometimes I start it out with hey guys. I use guys for males and females.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Lance K
      That's funny!

      Shawn,
      Imagine if we adopted the phrase, "Hey Gals!" when attempting to address male and female readers. It'd be interesting to see the response from the male recipients.

      One thing about the Forum is that we can call everyone Warriors, regardless of gender. And, according to my trusty dictionary, it's non-gender.

      Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
    This is funny because the other day I was in the office (for my other job I do twice a week)
    and the female boss said to me 'Thanks Dude' when I wished her happy birthday. I was like 'huh?' I didn't get offended but it did make me double take - especially since this woman is in her 40's. Maybe it's the new hip thing to say to women?
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  • Profile picture of the author abednego
    I don't use the word "Dude" in a business setting - but I'm also not easily offended.

    I think the worst thing you can do on a social level, is to try to be "politically correct". It doesn't solve anything, it just hides any issues people have. This is a good discussion.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      I can't exactly say that I'm offended, necessarily. It just tweaks me the wrong way. Once or twice, I let it pass, but as I see an increasing number of people using it, I just started thinking - what's going on in THEIR minds.

      Obviously, they do not really think about the true meaning of the expression but simply use it because it's the new catch term everyone seems to be adopting.

      I suppose in time it will go the way of other expressions from the '60s - yuppies, for example.

      If you really think about it, it could be a term of endearment -

      When I travelled back to England in the late 60s, I felt quite 'welcomed' when the bus conductor called me, "love" and "ducks". My mother was offended, though, because she felt he was being way too familiar.

      Perhaps Dude is used with the same intention. Still, not quite proper in business, I don't think, unless it's someone you know.

      Sylvia
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