Product Launches Bombing

230 replies
If you have not heard, two of the last high profile, high ticket product launches have had less than stellar results.

Results like very high profile names selling only 2 copies with promotions to a 6 figure list.

There are definite reasons why this is happening.
#bombing #launches #product
  • Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

    If you have not heard, two of the last high profile, high ticket product launches have had less than stellar results.

    Results like very high profile names selling only 2 copies with promotions to a 6 figure list.

    There are definite reasons why this is happening.
    I keep my attention focused on other things so I haven't heard of those high ticket product launches bombing...care to share more details? And damn, just 2 copies with a 6 figure list and that happened with 2 launches...what do you figure was the reason? Definitely not just unlucky, I agree.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Yes, I'll summarize the blog post I wrote about this (if interested, check my sig) which goes into more a more detailed explanation.

      I received an email from a marketer who participates as a JV partner in these launches.

      This was a great email for people to read because it gave out hard numbers which I think people benefit from seeing because they can judge their own results against something.

      People may be doing perfectly fine with their own conversion rates, but because of some pre-conceived idea they have or picked up after reading some hype online, they feel their efforts are just not cutting it. This can lead to them junking something that is actually working well instead of just ramping up what they are already doing.

      Anyway, he mentioned in the email that his promotion efforts to his list, at making affiliate sales on this latest product launch, has produced a whopping 2 sales.

      I don't know for sure how many people are on his list, but I'm sure it's quite high. Well into 5 figures. But, even if you assume there are only 10,000 people on his list. 2 sales from 10,000 people is a horrible conversion rate.

      .02%

      This from a seasoned marketer.

      The surprising thing is that he goes on to say that he is in the top 10 affiliates for this product launch. Read that carefully and think about it.

      Very big names in the "how to make money online" market who have 6 figure lists have only sold 1 or 2 copies.

      He also mentioned another recent product launch, Eben Pagan's Self Made Wealth. This latest high ticket launch was not pulling very well either. This was the second place I read about the low numbers for that launch. It seems only 19 affiliate sales was the top getter.

      This totally contradicts the HUGE numbers you read about as far as earnings from the big names from their launches. You know, like... in the millions of dollars for a single launch and high 6 figure earnings in only a few hours, and selling out in 3 hours etc.

      As far as I can tell, there are 4 main possibilities why this is happening.

      1 - These are products that the market just does not want

      2 - The market is getting sick of very high ticket items

      3 - The people marketing these products don't know how to market

      4 - The "Universal List" is Saturated
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      • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        Yes, I'll summarize the blog post I wrote about this (if interested, check my sig) which goes into more a more detailed explanation.

        I received an email from a marketer who participates as a JV partner in these launches.

        This was a great email for people to read because it gave out hard numbers which I think people benefit from seeing because they can judge their own results against something.

        People may be doing perfectly fine with their own conversion rates, but because of some pre-conceived idea they have or picked up after reading some hype online, they feel their efforts are just not cutting it. This can lead to them junking something that is actually working well instead of just ramping up what they are already doing.

        Anyway, he mentioned in the email that his promotion efforts to his list, at making affiliate sales on this latest product launch, has produced a whopping 2 sales.

        I don't know for sure how many people are on his list, but I'm sure it's quite high. Well into 5 figures. But, even if you assume there are only 10,000 people on his list. 2 sales from 10,000 people is a horrible conversion rate.

        .02%

        This from a seasoned marketer.

        The surprising thing is that he goes on to say that he is in the top 10 affiliates for this product launch. Read that carefully and think about it.

        Very big names in the "how to make money online" market who have 6 figure lists have only sold 1 or 2 copies.

        He also mentioned another recent product launch, Eben Pagan's Self Made Wealth. This latest high ticket launch was not pulling very well either. This was the second place I read about the low numbers for that launch. It seems only 19 affiliate sales was the top getter.

        This totally contradicts the HUGE numbers you read about as far as earnings from the big names from their launches. You know, like... in the millions of dollars for a single launch and high 6 figure earnings in only a few hours, and selling out in 3 hours etc.

        As far as I can tell, there are 4 main possibilities why this is happening.

        1 - These are products that the market just does not want

        2 - The market is getting sick of very high ticket items

        3 - The people marketing these products don't know how to market

        4 - The "Universal List" is Saturated

        I think you missed out some:

        The products aren't worth the high prices.
        People have been conned in the past.
        There is lots of other "free" information about now.
        They are not believeable any more.
        People are sick of the hype and exaggerated claims.
        Money seems tighter for many than it was a few years ago.
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      • Profile picture of the author mki
        I was just glancing over some of the Eben Pagan’s Self Made Wealth pages and I'm not motivated to buy this product at all. I just feel turned off when I look at the sales pages and I'm not sure why. I go to the site and I'm completely uninterested, I clicked the video play button and closed the tab before it even loaded.

        I actually lost interest in the product before I ever even found out about the contents of it. Now granted I didn't see the sales letters that got mailed out, but I think the site is in some dire need of some additional split testing.

        Edit: it's too general and I'm not easily sold on false promises of wealth, if it was "self made twitter wealth" then maybe I'd be interested.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
          Originally Posted by mki View Post

          I was just glancing over some of the Eben Pagan's Self Made Wealth pages and I'm not motivated to buy this product at all. I just feel turned off when I look at the sales pages and I'm not sure why. I go to the site and I'm completely uninterested, I clicked the video play button and closed the tab before it even loaded.

          I actually lost interest in the product before I ever even found out about the contents of it. Now granted I didn't see the sales letters that got mailed out, but I think the site is in some dire need of some additional split testing.

          Edit: it's too general and I'm not easily sold on false promises of wealth, if it was "self made twitter wealth" then maybe I'd be interested.
          That's an easy one. You're just not the target market for that program or that sales page. As you said yourself, it would appeal to you more if it had something to do with Twitter, so maybe you will go for the next shiny object you see with Twitter in it. Just kidding.
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          • Profile picture of the author mki
            Originally Posted by Ian Varnava View Post

            That's an easy one. You're just not the target market for that program or that sales page. As you said yourself, it would appeal to you more if it had something to do with Twitter, so maybe you will go for the next shiny object you see with Twitter in it. Just kidding.
            I'd certainly take a look That's just an example of the type of material that interests me, so you're right, I guess I failed to realize that my opinion doesn't actually matter since this product was not designed for me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg Jacobs
          Originally Posted by mki View Post


          Edit: it's too general and I'm not easily sold on false promises of wealth, if it was "self made twitter wealth" then maybe I'd be interested.
          first off this above quote says about everything you ever need to know... the rest is hot air....

          but as for product launches... first things first, I am not speaking specially about any of the launches mentioned on this thread, but in general, whatever numbers they report to their affiliates in mass emails are usually the result of what we call "IM Math" so figure it out yourself.

          secondly... I am involved in quite a bit of launches and stuff that goes well beyond what I put my name on or could explain here on a forum... and what we have determined (actually proved) is basically what is new wins.. Ie.. when syndicate started doing the "kajbi/vid bos" launches in early 2010 it worked Quite well... why... were the the product any better or the marketing smarter?

          no not really, what was better was that the launch format was fresh. People were not used to seeing slickly produced pre-sell videos with surfboards and guitars and then porno music and keynote, jeans and Italian jackets rambling on
          for hours until you cant help but pay 2k .. just to keep the erection going.

          It really worked well. But... show that same "formula" over and over to the same target group and it really doesn't become interesting anymore...
          Hell, I thought that Treys software pre-launch was fuc*ing fantastic, one of the best pre-launches I have seen, however the deal is that "what is coming next" was way too predictable.. I am sure that the sales on this launch were fine, but do that EXACT same launch one year before, when all the peoples on the list haven't seen the same formula raped in order by all the friends of the droid, and i betcha sales would have been doubled.

          the point being that in this game, you need to keep it fresh.. do Product launches work? yup they do... to some extent.. and surprisingly well outside the IM niche i can say with certainty.

          but if you are in the IM niche are talking about "opening a wormhole" and thrusting people into an unabated buying frenzy, then you really got to push the bar a little and come up with something original....

          that all being said, on the Greg Jacobs brand, I have sold approx %560 more on webinars, private promotions and backends than I have through product launches. so chew on that....
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          • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
            Originally Posted by Greg Jacobs View Post


            It really worked well. But... show that same "formula" over and over to the same target group and it really doesn't become interesting anymore...
            Hell, I thought that Treys software pre-launch was fuc*ing fantastic, one of the best pre-launches I have seen, however the deal is that "what is coming next" was way too predictable.. I am sure that the sales on this launch were fine, but do that EXACT same launch one year before, when all the peoples on the list haven't seen the same formula raped in order by all the friends of the droid, and i betcha sales would have been doubled.
            True, but if new pools of people are being added to the lists regularly then it can go on indefinitely.

            Obviously you know that all lists die eventually if new people aren't being brought into the system on a regular basis.

            Even if a list is 5% less responsive every month than the last (this is being conservative), after a year it will be around half as responsive (0.95^12 x 100% = 54.03%)
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg Jacobs
              Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

              True, but if new pools of people are being added to the lists regularly then it can go on indefinitely.
              that is true, but a pretty bottom feeder way to look at it... go take a look at the clickbank top ten for proof of that. I am more interested in building and maintaining sustainable 8 figure businesses rather than "hoping enough people will show up this time that will fall for it...."

              ... you would be quite surprised that with correct angling how much the same core group can be sold to over and over again. and this "core group" are the ones that have the money to spend on 2k doozies. (much harder to find than people who buy and refund $37 junk)
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              • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
                Originally Posted by Greg Jacobs View Post

                that is true, but a pretty bottom feeder way to look at it... go take a look at the clickbank top ten for proof of that. I am more interested in building and maintaining sustainable 8 figure businesses rather than "hoping enough people will show up this time that will fall for it...."

                ... you would be quite surprised that with correct angling how much the same core group can be sold to over and over again. and this "core group" are the ones that have the money to spend on 2k doozies. (much harder to find than people who buy and refund $37 junk)
                I wasn't talking about that, all lists die eventually if new people aren't added.

                It isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

                Yes you can prolong the life of a list as you've pointed out, but it just becomes a slower death.

                The foundation of any business is the front-end, if you cut that off ... any business, list, forum etc WILL be finished eventually.

                None of us can escape from the maths.

                If you want to destroy a business: cut off the front-end.

                The back-end will create the "illusion" things are fine for a while, but the game is over the moment the front-end is taken away from any business.

                Whenever I see any business who is neglecting their front-end, I know they'll be finished sooner or later.

                And I've been right 100% of the time, they've always got their excuses like "I've got my repeat customers blah blah", I show them the maths and tell them to sort their front-end out and they don't listen.

                But they always pay the price eventually for their ignorance.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Hall
      High ticket items haven't been doing well for anyone recently. More and more of the high profile "guru" types have been having poor results for at least a year or two.

      There are a couple reasons for this, I think.

      People are getting jaded. I know there are newcomers to IM every day, but there are only a certain amount of people who are willing to buy $2000 courses or coaching.

      And a lot of those people are high profile (or at least moderately successful) IMers themselves because they want to see what the competition is doing and they can afford the investment. (Used to work for one of those types.)

      Everyone else...I mean how many high ticket items will one person buy if they still aren't making any money? And how many people are actually now successful BECAUSE they bought the high ticket items?

      Not only are there less people who can afford it, people are getting smarter I think. Or at least a little more careful.

      Also, there have been recent changes in the way affiliate marketing works due to FTC crunching down on one click OTO pages and monthly payments. Maybe that has had some sort of effect as well.

      I dunno, I could be way off but that's my two cents
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    To do a big launch you have to have a high ticket item. The big boys won't bother unless they're getting over $1,000 it seems in commission. So you've got product makers jacking up prices on things that aren't worth even close to what they're charging. This makes buyers angry and they may or may not buy the next big promo from their guru of choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Landis
    The majority of people buy these products because they believe a higher price = higher quality stuff = higher chance of making money. When they dont make any money from it, they arent likely to be buying any more high ticket items.
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  • Profile picture of the author majidmaskat
    these days launches are confusing, every day multiple products arrive on the market I cant help but to notice they are getting rubbish now. With the introduction of Jv partners it has become very effective & easy to sell "junk" especially with the great JV pages and prize offers
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  • Profile picture of the author gay_webmaster
    Build websites.
    Rank them or buy traffic.
    Redirect the traffic to someone willing to pay well for it.
    Scale the above.

    It doesn't get any more complicated than that, much to the chagrin of those selling big ticket shiny objects.
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  • Profile picture of the author wcmylife
    I am a JV for Eben as well as JW - and yes Eben's launch did not end up as big as his GURU Launch Blueprint which we did last year. That being said, Eben took a chance with the self made wealth product and had a lower estimate on his expectations i.e which was 2M - Guru Launch went past 3M.

    Still Self Made Wealth brought in over 1.5 M and that's not bad by most people's standards...and as Jeff said he told Eben that people were less likely to want to learn about money and more likely to WANT MONEY NOW - but I guess it's part of the test process to see what works and what does not....
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    • Profile picture of the author suemax
      Originally Posted by wcmylife View Post

      I am a JV for Eben as well as JW - and yes Eben's launch did not end up as big as his GURU Launch Blueprint which we did last year. That being said, Eben took a chance with the self made wealth product and had a lower estimate on his expectations i.e which was 2M - Guru Launch went past 3M.

      Still Self Made Wealth brought in over 1.5 M and that's not bad by most people's standards...and as Jeff said he told Eben that people were less likely to want to learn about money and more likely to WANT MONEY NOW - but I guess it's part of the test process to see what works and what does not....
      Am I dreaming or was this Eben Pagan a re-run of an earlier product? I thought he'd already had a run with the Wealth product.
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      Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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      • Profile picture of the author suemax
        IMO there are several reasons behind these product launch failures.

        I think there is audience exhaustion. Eben Pagan did at least run his name with the product, but the vast majority of guys don't, and unless you are a keen follower of launches etc, it is VERY difficult to tell whether you've already bought a product or not! Is "Xtreme Ninja Traffic Annihilation" really that different from "Extreme Traffic Domination Method" or "Extreme Traffic Autopilot" or Xtreme Ninja Traffic Domination" or "Extreme Ninja Traffic AutoExtractor"? Layer on long sales videos where the speaker blinds us with the clickbank and paypal accounts from his last LAUNCH (nothing to do with using the product), and which tell you NOTHING at all about the product, and no wonder nobody buys.

        The audience are turned off by six upsells, two downsells and a continuity programme.....

        and they are turned off to be told that the main product actually doesn't work well without the "pro" add-on or the "extreme version" and to learn that what was easy on the sales video now needs to be installed at cost or you need coaching to work with it after all.....
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        Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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      • Profile picture of the author wcmylife
        @suemax -- Eben has a few products guru blueprint, time management, self made wealth, DYD --- he keeps changing it up to keep things fresh i guess..
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        • Profile picture of the author suemax
          Originally Posted by wcmylife View Post

          @suemax -- Eben has a few products guru blueprint, time management, self made wealth, DYD --- he keeps changing it up to keep things fresh i guess..
          Yes, but what I read about it was that the Wealth one was clearly NOT a new product but a refresh / relaunch.
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          Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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        • Profile picture of the author armandortega
          Originally Posted by wcmylife View Post

          @suemax -- Eben has a few products guru blueprint, time management, self made wealth, DYD --- he keeps changing it up to keep things fresh i guess..
          One starts to distrust the quality of the product when you see one guru who is an expert in everything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    Personally, I stopped really caring about big launches back in 2006. I think once you start to build a business, you realize that what the guru's are selling is most likely just a distraction.

    To me it seemed like a lot of the gurus kind were REALLY building their lists around the same time...2005-2006-ish. That's when the BIG DOGS all seemed to get really popular. So it does make me wonder if their lists got pretty stale. When you think about it, most of the opt-ins from gurus come during a launch. So if 60% of your list is from 2007, you gotta figure that at some point they just ignore you.

    I don't even know where you'd go to sign up for people like John Reese, Frank Kern, or Jeff Walker's list.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    When the kiddies get out of school, get a job, and start making paychecks, they too will start to wonder if the grass is greener on the make money from home side. They will save up their two grand and the big product launchers will be back in business.
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    • Profile picture of the author suemax
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      When the kiddies get out of school, get a job, and start making paychecks, they too will start to wonder if the grass is greener on the make money from home side. They will save up their two grand and the big product launchers will be back in business.
      I can see that the poster of this is not in UK!!
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      Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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  • Profile picture of the author wcmylife
    I completely agree with Brian....there's a whole lot of new people jumping into the make money online business and will no doubt keep product launches in business. Trey Smith is doing pretty well on his current launch pushing software for creating apps - it's a new product for most people so no wonder it's getting heat - that being said JW is going to launch in a few days and I would very surprised if he does less than 3M
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  • Profile picture of the author RevenueBuilder
    Who are these guys? I noticed the auto mass traffic dude made BANK, huge gravity on clickbank for quite awhile, what did he do right that the others didnt?
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Yawwwwwnnnn .... Please wake me when its over. We're all tired, tired of being $2k lighter in the wallet - reading about crap they dont even do themselves.

      Ohhhh wait .. will they run out of bytes on their hard drive and this digital product wont ever be availed to the world again? In that case I better rush to my paypal acount!
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
      I just think people are a little smarter now and realise that for $2000 you could hire a whole lot of outsourcers to effectively run a business for you. The software system though will potentially do quite well because it's offering something relatively fresh in theory but I seriously doubt there's gonna be much success with it from a user's point of view. No software is gonna give you that 'creative spark' needed to come up with blockbuster apps.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasons
        Originally Posted by sorrellaff View Post

        I just think people are a little smarter now and realise that for $2000 you could hire a whole lot of outsourcers to effectively run a business for you. The software system though will potentially do quite well because it's offering something relatively fresh in theory but I seriously doubt there's gonna be much success with it from a user's point of view. No software is gonna give you that 'creative spark' needed to come up with blockbuster apps.
        I totally agree with you. Why buy the next $2000 product when you can make your own product for less than the latest clickbank product and start building a real long term thing with your own systems and processes. You could get like 6 people working for you for 8 hours a day for $2000 a month me x 6 x 8 hours x 20 days is ton of productivity! That's over 1000 hours of man labor. Way better deal if you ask me! :O)

        Jay
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      • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
        Good point. Anyone who seriously follows IM at this point is at least aware of outsourcing, and how it applies to their business. I don't know how one could justify dropping $2k on a program that supposedly teaches how to build wealth, when there is so much dirt-cheap outsourcing available -- and you could get such a huge amount ACCOMPLISHED for the same amount of money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rosner
    When these guys sell products for $2000+ and then "teach" us how to sell cheap crap for $2000, you gotta wake up. Overpriced products, buggy programs, haphazard support and "guru" mutual admiration societies. Never again for this black duck. Lucky for them there'll always be fresh chickens to pluck.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Hmmm, seems like a topic where you just want us to click your sig link?

    Perhaps I'm just being cynical. But yeah, it's good for discussion.

    Yes there could be some saturation there or it could just be products that people are not interested in or just didn't resonate with the market at this time. There could be lots of reasons, but yes, I don't these guys can go on forever and ever doing the same thing over and over. But think about it. What's 100 sales of a $2000 product? Still a tidy sum to be made even after expenses.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Walker
      LOL...

      I originally released the very first version of
      Product Launch Formula in October 2005 and the cat
      was officially out of the bag... before that I had
      shared my stuff with a few friends like John
      Reese, Frank Kern, and Yanik Silver... but October
      2005 was the first time I taught it publicly.

      And guess what... lots of people started doing
      launches, and various other people started
      proclaiming the death of product launches by
      December 2005. In other words, it took about six
      weeks for people to say product launches were
      "done"...

      Ummm. Not exactly.

      This is the reality... the big launches keep on
      rolling along and doing just fine. Why do you
      think people keep doing them?

      Here's the OTHER reality. For every big launch you
      see in the "make money online" niche, there are
      hundreds of others in all kinds of other niches
      that you never hear about - because you aren't on
      the lists in those markets.

      For example, how about "dog agility" or
      "scrapbooking" or "tapping"? You probably missed
      those launches... and they were all SUPER
      successful.

      Now let's get back to the "make money online"
      market... because that's something of a spectator
      sport here. The deal is that in the "make money
      online" market there are a half-dozen launches a
      week. And it's rare when there aren't at least two
      MAJOR launches by "big dog" marketers going at
      the same time.

      That means it's harder to cut through the noise.
      You have to be better than the average marketer,
      and you have to be more creative with your
      prelaunch, and you have to work harder to get JVs
      onboard... and ABOVE ALL you need to have a great
      offer - what I call a CRUSHING OFFER.

      NOT an "Xtreme Ninja Blackbox Traffic Autopilot"
      piece of crap.

      The OP talks about an affiliate only selling two
      copies of a product he/she promoted. And the OP
      guessed at the affiliates list size. Of course, we
      don't have a clue what the list size REALLY IS.

      And we don't know what the affiliate did to
      promote it (ie, mail each piece of prelaunch or
      just on "cart open" day?)... or who else was
      promoting it (what kind of competition was
      there?)... or how well his list matched the
      offer... or how responsive his list was... or how
      fresh the list was... or how good the affiliate
      copy was (did the affiliate cut-and-paste the
      swipe copy, or did he/she craft a compelling hook
      that tied into the launch?)... etc etc etc

      ALL of those things (and many more) make a huge
      impact on how an affiliate will perform.

      I've seen an affiliate with a list of about 10,000
      beat affiliates with of 350,000 or more... because
      he had a warm list and a good bonus and a great
      promotional strategy.

      Now the idea of being "top 10" with 2 sales is
      another matter. That's the sign of a pretty weak
      launch (by my standards), but let's break it
      down a bit...

      When someone says they were top 10, that usually
      means they were #9 or #10.

      And if we can assume they were #9 or #10 for SALES
      (not leads) and that was FINAL standings (and not
      interim standings)... and they had two sales, then
      that means the total sales were *probably*
      somewhere in the 75 to 150 units.

      (Trust me, I've seen the inside of a LOT of
      leaderboards. Usually the top 5 will sell over
      half the total units, and things drop off pretty fast
      from there.)

      Whether 75-150 units is good or bad depends on
      the price point and the expectations.

      OK... moving along... yes, Eben did fall short of
      his goal of $2 million for Self Made Wealth. He
      ONLY did $1.75 million. Bummer... better call the
      suicide prevention line. NOT.

      How many people here would like a $1.75MM
      product launch "bomb"?

      I wrote a blog post where I broke down some of the
      stuff going on with that launch... and why I think
      it started slowly, and what Eben did to fix it.
      You can see the blog post here:

      The Product Launch Parachute


      (MODS: not sure if it's cool to put that link
      here. Nothing for sale anywhere on my blog. But
      if it's not cool, just kill that link.)

      One other thing that nearly everyone forgets is
      that the benefits of a successful launch go WAY
      beyond the initial dollars you pull in. In fact,
      Eben could literally take the money he made from
      this launch... put it in a paper bag and BURN
      IT... and he'll come out way ahead.

      First, he had a major list build - on the order of
      TENS of thousands. Second, he added a lot of
      buyers to his list. Third, he had massive social
      proof and positioning with all kinds of affiliates
      mailing their lists about how awesome Eben is.
      Fourth, he built big time momentum in his entire
      organization. Fifth, he was able to do all kinds
      of testing and pull in lots of data about the
      market...

      I could keep going, but you get the idea. I've
      talked about the "Launch Echo" before... it's very
      real. The benefits of a single launch can be huge.

      Here's an example... in my opinion, right now
      before your very eyes, Trey Smith is creating a
      business that will do tens of millions of dollars
      in the coming years - and he's doing that with
      a product launch. It's not actually a product
      launch - it's a BUSINESS LAUNCH.

      OK, enough said... you get my point.


      - Jeff
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      • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
        Originally Posted by Jeff Walker View Post

        The OP talks about an affiliate only selling two
        copies of a product he/she promoted. And the OP
        guessed at the affiliates list size. Of course, we
        don't have a clue what the list size REALLY IS.

        And we don't know what the affiliate did to
        promote it (ie, mail each piece of prelaunch or
        just on "cart open" day?)... or who else was
        promoting it (what kind of competition was
        there?)... or how well his list matched the
        offer... or how responsive his list was... or how
        fresh the list was... or how good the affiliate
        copy was (did the affiliate cut-and-paste the
        swipe copy, or did he/she craft a compelling hook
        that tied into the launch?)... etc etc etc

        - Jeff
        Jeff,

        Agreed with pretty much everything you said, but wanted to clarify something.

        The affiliate in question is a super affiliate. As in, big responsive list. High quality newsletter, great content, etc. Also, the bonus he offered was huge and valuable.

        You probably know him very well

        My turn to speculate though. My guess as to why said affiliate didn't do so well with this particular promotion: the product price was too high, especially for something that most IMers wouldn't be interested in at all.

        Kind of like what you said in your blog post regarding Eben Pagan's recent launch. To paraphase, people want to build wealth, not to learn about wealth. Perhaps the vendor just misread the market.

        Of course, I have no idea what really happened

        Curtis
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        Curtis Ng (blog) - Product Launch Manager
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Clark
        Finally, someone speaks sense.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jack Clark
          Originally Posted by Jack Clark View Post

          Finally, someone speaks sense.
          BTW: I was meaning that Jeff was speaking sense!
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  • Profile picture of the author BruceWood
    Interesting developments. The rush to market has created crap, and I've bought my share. Each new buy has been more disappointing than the next. If others feel this way too, (as it seems they do) there goes the "repeat customers"!

    Good luck, Gurus! I hope you have invested your profits wisely -- you may need to live off them!
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  • Profile picture of the author wcmylife
    There you go...you got the master himself clarifying things for you - albeit he has a PL coming up - but considering the fact that he has done it over the past 6 years consistently and helped others do it consistently - I'd tend to believe him a wee bit more than the rest.

    A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument, they say...

    Way to go Jeff...let me know if I you need any help
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    • Profile picture of the author suemax
      Originally Posted by wcmylife View Post

      There you go...you got the master himself clarifying things for you - albeit he has a PL coming up - but considering the fact that he has done it over the past 6 years consistently and helped others do it consistently - I'd tend to believe him a wee bit more than the rest.

      A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument, they say...

      Way to go Jeff...let me know if I you need any help
      Yes, hats off to Jeff - after all, we are speculating - he has been there.... for a long while.
      Signature

      Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
    There's nothing to hide here, at least I don't think so? :confused:

    The promotion the OP talking about is to Kelly Felix's BTF members, for Trey Smith's software stuff. He sent a broadcast today saying what the OP said, about the promo 'bombing' and only getting 2 sales.

    In my opinion, whether the 2 sales part is true or not, it's very smart marketing on their part, as he is now pitching 2 of his 'friends' products for a total of $134 and you'll get the bonuses he originally offered with the high ticket purchase.

    It could be just brilliant marketing...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Walker
      Curtis and Ian,

      Thanks for the clarification... I had no idea who the marketer in question was or what launch this was about. It's sorta funny that I used Trey's launch as an example in my post.

      Of course, now that I know who we're talking about, I have to be careful what I say.

      However, here's a few facts that I know for sure:

      1. The launch just opened yesterday... all data is incomplete at this point.

      2. The latest affiliate standings were only for the first 24 hours. I guarantee that it will take a lot more than 2 sales to remain in the top 10.

      3. Trey's product is selling... I can see it in my affiliate stats, and I talked to Trey a few hours ago. If people want to talk about launches that are bombing... then this isn't the launch to talk about.


      - Jeff
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    • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      To be honest, I don't think you actually put enough thought into this before starting a yet another "DEATH OF [Insert Totally Working Business Model Here]"

      I mean seriously here is all the stuff that we don't know:

      How long ago did the product launch?
      How many sales did the top affiliates generate? (He might be #10 and #1-5 might be the guys doing all the work)
      What's the promoter's list size?
      Has every affiliate on the board jumped on and started promoting this?

      etc.

      Simply put, we don't have enough information to draw a solid conclusion.

      I do think however that your goal was not to draw a solid conclusion but to gain attention and traffic from this controversial thread and I think you have achieved that already so great job. (That's my opinion and I am entitled to one )
      Reading the thread is a beautiful thing...

      Originally Posted by Ian Varnava View Post

      There's nothing to hide here, at least I don't think so? :confused:

      The promotion the OP talking about is to Kelly Felix's BTF members, for Trey Smith's software stuff. He sent a broadcast today saying what the OP said, about the promo 'bombing' and only getting 2 sales.

      In my opinion, whether the 2 sales part is true or not, it's very smart marketing on their part, as he is now pitching 2 of his 'friends' products for a total of $134 and you'll get the bonuses he originally offered with the high ticket purchase.

      It could be just brilliant marketing...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    To be honest, I don't think you actually put enough thought into this before starting a yet another "DEATH OF [Insert Totally Working Business Model Here]"

    I mean seriously here is all the stuff that we don't know:

    How long ago did the product launch?
    How many sales did the top affiliates generate? (He might be #10 and #1-5 might be the guys doing all the work)
    What's the promoter's list size?
    Has every affiliate on the board jumped on and started promoting this?

    etc.

    Simply put, we don't have enough information to draw a solid conclusion.

    I do think however that your goal was not to draw a solid conclusion but to gain attention and traffic from this controversial thread and I think you have achieved that already so great job. (That's my opinion and I am entitled to one )
    Signature

    “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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  • Profile picture of the author JeedoAquino
    Hi,

    High end ticket products specially when it doesn't return enough ROI for the customer will eventually flop. A marketer just can't rehash a product forever, people are not stupid or some will probably realize their naiveness.

    jamawebinc, I agree with you, there will be a shift of trend in the online industry and not just Internet Marketing. I believe that would be going back to "basics" no fuzz, no hype, affordable if not free information that WILL REALLY help internet marketing wannabes.

    Product launches isn't dead, but very HIGH ticket product launches are declining in popularity. Once a customer is $2k lighter and didn't get the results he wanted, bang, that person will never again buy a high ticket product. Not unless that person didn't have enough yet ^^.

    Just my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    The fact that Walker is in here, in a defensive and derisively mocking position, is in itself proof, that there is something to the post. It is an obvious sign of weakness to attempt to defend a world class marketer's 1 in 50,000 conversion rate.

    Cut the price by a factor of 5 and I guarantee you get a hell of a lot more than a 5X increase in conversions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bruce,
      The fact that Walker is in here, in a defensive and derisively mocking position, is in itself proof, that there is something to the post. It is an obvious sign of weakness to attempt to defend a world class marketer's 1 in 50,000 conversion rate.
      I didn't hear him defending anyone's conversion rate. He pointed out a lot of things that could contribute to a low conversion rate, which is very different from "defending" anything.

      Aside from that, are there specific statements of fact in his comments that you'd like to dispute, or are you going to rely on the "Denial is proof" argument? That one is part of a fun pair, often used by people who want to appeal to those who aren't thinking clearly. The other partner in the duo is, "He's not denying it, so it must be true." Both are less-than-useful approaches to sensible discussion.
      Cut the price by a factor of 5 and I guarantee you get a hell of a lot more than a 5X increase in conversions.
      Maybe. It would be an interesting test, that's for sure.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Hi Paul,

    You're right and thanks for correcting me. It is not conclusive proof. It is merely an indicator.

    Beyond that, people on the outside will never really know the truth. It's only good business sense to keep a tight lid on the product launch bombs, for product owners and affiliates alike.

    The fact is, as you well know, prices are arbitrarily set and the only testing ever done on price is, "how did the last guy do?"

    There are a lot of ways to have a $2 million launch. One way is to sell 1,000 @ $2,000. All other factors being equal, on a digital product with minimal customer service needs, I'd much rather sell 10,000 at @200 or even 20,000 @ $50 and wind up with a hell of a lot more buyers on my list. Obviously, there is an optimal price point. I guess my complaint is, going all the way back to Traffic Secrets, I've never seen a guru even try to find it.

    Are there specific statements of fact in Jeff's post I'd like to tackle? Nah, not really. I'm sure "Launch Echo" is all Jeff claims it is and we should just burn all the launch profits in a post launch marshmallow roast.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Dickens
      seeing as how kelly felix owned clickbank's top spot for like 2 years back in the day I'd be willing to bet he knows a thing or two about affiliate and internet marketing.

      also being a rich jerk customer back then I only received one promo email ever (stompernet) so he never burned his list then, and being a BTF member now, I also know he doesn't burn that list either.

      if he only made 2 sales that's crazy because trey's system looks great. maybe it is a lie and he wants to sell the **** out of George brown's gsniper 2? and that's why he's offering the same bonus for that as well?

      who know's I don't but whether he made 2 sales or not on the software system (thus far) i bet he kills it on gsniper 2... cuz the bonus is pretty sick...

      either way whether people are tired of 2k products or not remains unproven either way. but I am sure this is not the death of IM in any way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bruce,

        Indicator? I will disagree, strongly. It's a slanted interpretation. As is your claim that Jeff was mocking and derisive in his tone, which is the basis for the interpretation.

        I went back and re-read his post, and I don't catch any of that. It might be because I've spoken with Jeff quite a lot over the past 14 or 15 years, so I can actually hear how he'd say those things. Or it might be because there is nothing in what he wrote that a neutral party would be likely to interpret as mocking or derisive.

        If you'd care to point out the word choices that give you that impression, I might understand the claim. I may be missing an interpretation. But I can assure you, that wasn't the intent of any of it.

        As far as the way the price is set, I didn't question that. I simply agreed that it would be an interesting test. I don't see it as likely, given that it would be difficult to do a proper test. As soon as people heard about the lower-priced offer for the same product, which they would, the whole dataset would be screwed.
        Are there specific statements of fact in Jeff's post I'd like to tackle? Nah, not really. I'm sure "Launch Echo" is all Jeff claims it is and we should just burn all the launch profits in a post launch marshmallow roast.
        Who's being mocking and derisive here, Bruce?

        Jeff never said Eben should do that. He said he could do it and still come out way ahead with the momentum the launch creates. That's the plainspeak word for "Launch echo," by the way. Momentum.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author mrmanpower
          I don't think they are bombing...I rather believe that the game is just becoming different. It has come to a point where the truly valuable comes out.

          If it's not valuable. no dice. that's my take on it. there are still noobs out there but there are also tons of products that are now being tested at a much lower price than $2k hence i think that people are getting smarter in spending that much.

          all the best.

          f
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        • Profile picture of the author Landis
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Bruce,

          Indicator? I will disagree, strongly. It's a slanted interpretation. As is your claim that Jeff was mocking and derisive in his tone, which is the basis for the interpretation.

          I went back and re-read his post, and I don't catch any of that. It might be because I've spoken with Jeff quite a lot over the past 14 or 15 years, so I can actually hear how he'd say those things. Or it might be because there is nothing in what he wrote that a neutral party would be likely to interpret as mocking or derisive.

          If you'd care to point out the word choices that give you that impression, I might understand the claim. I may be missing an interpretation. But I can assure you, that wasn't the intent of any of it.

          As far as the way the price is set, I didn't question that. I simply agreed that it would be an interesting test. I don't see it as likely, given that it would be difficult to do a proper test. As soon as people heard about the lower-priced offer for the same product, which they would, the whole dataset would be screwed.Who's being mocking and derisive here, Bruce?

          Jeff never said Eben should do that. He said he could do it and still come out way ahead with the momentum the launch creates. That's the plainspeak word for "Launch echo," by the way. Momentum.


          Paul
          Im not agreeing with everything Bruce said, but I too got a wrong vibe from Jeff's post. I consider myself a neutral party, in fact, I have jeffs PLF2.0 and I think its the best product I've bought in the IM niche thus far.

          Regards,
          Landis
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Landis,
            Im not agreeing with everything Bruce said, but I too got a wrong vibe from Jeff's post. I consider myself a neutral party, in fact, I have jeffs PLF2.0 and I think its the best product I've bought in the IM niche thus far.
            Well, either neutral or positively biased, so you might be able to help me see where that impression came from. What about it made you feel that way?

            Note: I'm not trying to bait anyone here. I would really like to know. If I'm missing something, it's helpful to have it pointed out.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Landis,

              Ah. I think I see it. The first part, right here. Specifically the first and last quoted lines.
              LOL...

              I originally released the very first version of
              Product Launch Formula in October 2005 and the cat
              was officially out of the bag... before that I had
              shared my stuff with a few friends like John
              Reese, Frank Kern, and Yanik Silver... but October
              2005 was the first time I taught it publicly.

              And guess what... lots of people started doing
              launches, and various other people started
              proclaiming the death of product launches by
              December 2005. In other words, it took about six
              weeks for people to say product launches were
              "done"...

              Ummm. Not exactly.
              I can see that as being reasonably interpreted as sarcasm. I don't get "derisively mocking," but I can see how it would look like sarcasm. That could very well be responsible for a "wrong vibe."

              The change of words helped, as I wasn't looking for something with strong implications this time around. Thank you.

              If there's more, I'm still missing it.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Landis
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Landis,

                Ah. I think I see it. The first part, right here. Specifically the first and last quoted lines.I can see that as being reasonably interpreted as sarcasm. I don't get "derisively mocking," but I can see how it would look like sarcasm. That could very well be responsible for a "wrong vibe."

                The change of words helped, as I wasn't looking for something with strong implications this time around. Thank you.

                If there's more, I'm still missing it.


                Paul
                Paul,

                You hit the nail on the head. I think its that first part that set the tone for the rest of the comment. I wouldn't go as far as calling it "derisively mocking" though!

                Regards,
                Landis
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Landis,
                  I wouldn't go as far as calling it "derisively mocking" though!
                  That's an old copywriter's trick. You take an existing element and exaggerate it to create the effect you want in the reader's mind. It tends to be more effective when your target audience has an existing emotional desire to believe the higher level of emphasis. It's commonly referred to as "hype."

                  It's used all the time. It turns the reality of confidence into a perception of arrogance, authority into authoritarianism, courtesy into weakness, etc, ad nauseam. It's also a significant element in confirmation bias (commonly called "fooling yourself"), in which we hype ourselves into believing things we shouldn't, and dismissing things we should consider.

                  It's a particularly nasty thing when used in conversation. If it's not corrected, the labels tend to stick, and create biases which affect future interpretations of the target.

                  Sometimes it's just repeating our own impressions, whether original or affected by previous comments in the same vein. Sometimes it's a deliberate effort to create the resulting prejudice. Sometimes it's just using the same words we see others use in similar situations. Probably more that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

                  Mostly, it's something to be aware of when involved in or observing conversations where one or more parties has an agenda or position to promote. That happens a lot in most forums.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    By the way...

                    Leaving out the first and last quoted lines, the two complete paragraphs are pure statements of fact. Somewhat understated, actually. Some of the comments made about the process have been nothing short of ridiculous.

                    As to the tone... Anyone who's ever heard Jeff use the phrase "Ummm. Not exactly," which he does often, probably thinks more of a teacher who wants to correct a wrong impression without slighting the student for the mistake. He stretches out the 'a.'

                    Mind you, I wouldn't fault him if he meant it sarcastically, but that doesn't fit with my experience of him using those words.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Landis,That's an old copywriter's trick. You take an existing element and exaggerate it to create the effect you want in the reader's mind. It tends to be more effective when your target audience has an existing emotional desire to believe the higher level of emphasis. It's commonly referred to as "hype."

                    It's used all the time. It turns the reality of confidence into a perception of arrogance, authority into authoritarianism, courtesy into weakness, etc, ad nauseam. It's also a significant element in confirmation bias (commonly called "fooling yourself"), in which we hype ourselves into believing things we shouldn't, and dismissing things we should consider.

                    It's a particularly nasty thing when used in conversation. If it's not corrected, the labels tend to stick, and create biases which affect future interpretations of the target.

                    Sometimes it's just repeating our own impressions, whether original or affected by previous comments in the same vein. Sometimes it's a deliberate effort to create the resulting prejudice. Sometimes it's just using the same words we see others use in similar situations. Probably more that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

                    Mostly, it's something to be aware of when involved in or observing conversations where one or more parties has an agenda or position to promote. That happens a lot in most forums.


                    Paul
                    Paul,

                    Thanks for clarifying and shedding light on this psychological trick that copywriters like to employ. It's very easy to miss if you're not specifically looking out for it, and by emphatically stating this impression right at the beginning it can very easily color people's perceptions of the ensuing argument.

                    It is definitely a very nasty trick that can set off a very emotional exchange, especially from those who are already predisposed to either side of the argument. It tends to make the opposition bristle in anger, and the sympathetic ones to rise up in defense.

                    All in all, there's nothing good at all that can come from employing this tactic, especially with such an emotionally charged topic. I hope we can remain relatively objective here, and not let our biases and prejudices get in the way of constructive conversation.

                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Paul,

                      We need to remember that it's not always deliberate, and it's not always maliciously intended.

                      For instance, I don't think Bruce meant to do any of that. Copywriters are prone to using a lot of flourish in their speech. It's often an unconscious habit, and there's a real tendency to use emotionally loaded words. Occupational hazard. The work we do leaves marks on us.

                      My experience with Bruce has been limited to a few conversations on this board, and reading a lot of his posts over the years. I've found him to be very reasonable when treated with the respect of a sensible argument. Like any intelligent person, you can't just tell him he's wrong. You have to show him. Until that happens, he's going to maintain his previously considered opinion. And unlike many people in the world, if you ask Bruce why he believes a thing, he can tell you.

                      That trick isn't limited to copywriters. We all do it to some extent. Copywriters and PR specialists are among the few who have defined and refined it as a technique and consciously employ it.

                      And yeah, I agree... It's a significant contributor to divisive argument.

                      I don't agree that it's always bad, even when it's deliberately used, even in a negative fashion. And it can easily be used in a positive fashion.


                      Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Landis,Well, either neutral or positively biased, so you might be able to help me see where that impression came from. What about it made you feel that way?

              Note: I'm not trying to bait anyone here. I would really like to know. If I'm missing something, it's helpful to have it pointed out.
              Paul, I've not read all the thread but what I meant by mocking was, he started the post with an LOL, then the discussion about how Eben only did $1.75 million and how he's sure we'd all love to do that. A reminder that they're still bringing in millions and "we" are not.

              I'm not even sure why a guy supposedly making $20 million a year with Double Your Dating is even interested in playing in this niche, but that's another discussion.
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  • Profile picture of the author JK Nyerere
    Remember the put $5 in an envelope and pass it on to 5 people online money making scheme 15 years ago.

    As with all scams, people generally wise up and realize a scam for what it really is. People have maybe finally realized that the information in many $2000 guru courses can be easily bought in a $30 marketing book from Amazon.

    Hoodia, **** berry, Bernard Madoff all had their day too.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I just saw the link in the OP's signature... "The Death of Product Launches..."

    Man oh man...

    Now there are 3 things certain in life.

    Death, taxes, and people claiming a technique is dead because it hasn't worked for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I just saw the link in the OP's signature... "The Death of Product Launches..."

      Man oh man...

      Now there are 3 things certain in life.

      Death, taxes, and people claiming a technique is dead because it hasn't worked for them.
      If you follow the link (that sells nothing) you'll see the first thing I mention is "The Death of.." title is a wink from me to those ridiculous headlines.

      Actually, I find people claim the "death of..." a strategy or method when they have a vested interest in convincing you it is so because they are selling an opposing strategy or method.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
        Paul,

        Jeff has a vested interest in making sure people do not believe that Product launches are starting to lose there luster. The fact of the matter is they are... in the " make money niche".

        But I can assure everyone here that they are not outside of this niche.

        Even in this niche you make more by executing a thoroughly planned launch.

        But, they way I see it is Jeffs vested interest makes his points piratically mute because his views are skewed because of that vested interest.

        Also, of course you are going to defend a friend so that almost puts you in the same class when it comes to the conversation.

        Jeff can spout off numbers all day to make the launches look like the fast cash millionaire maker all day. But I could start spouting out numbers that would make you run for the hills when it comes to product launches.

        For one lets talk about actually conversion rates. Then lets talk about refund percentages. Then lets talk about chargebacks. Not even to mention how long it takes for some of these guys to pay you.

        With all that said, here is my point. Product Launches still work. They kill it outside of IM niche (because people are not jaded). However, the majority of the launches in this niche are over priced garbage that were rushed to the market to stay on schedule with the "Launch rotation" or whatever they call it. I am not saying all, but you are crazy if you do not believe most are.

        In fact, the guys mostly relying on these launches would not have a business if it was not for them.

        Learning how to pull contestant leads and contestant sales wins every day.

        Shannon
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      • Profile picture of the author BruceWood
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        If you follow the link (that sells nothing) you'll see the first thing I mention is "The Death of.." title is a wink from me to those ridiculous headlines.
        ....
        Great headline! Right up there with "They Laughed When I Sat Down At The Computer"
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  • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
    There were 3 or 4 movies last year that were major big budget movies. They all were in the red, for millions and millions of dollars.

    Let be honest, there's just as many movies launched as there are IM products.

    That doesn't mean the movie industry is starting to go dead in the water.

    Things aren't always what they seem though. Harry Potter 5 for example LOST $167 million dollars.

    Massive brand, with a massive following, losing that much money? Must mean the title has run its course.

    People all around the world were mocking Harry Potter saying its finally run its course... But it's what they couldn't see that told the real story.

    The production team spent millions on new state of the art cameras and other studio equipment. Taking millions out of the budget.

    All that new equipment though will be used on all there other movies for years and years. Making them billions of dollars extra.

    Same with these 2 launches. You don't see the massive lists that were made. You don't see market data/opinions that were found. You don't see the name and branding that comes out of it. You don't see the future sales.

    Not all things are what they seem at first glance.

    That's normally where the real money is. At the real business end.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
      I don't know if any new technologies were developed for the Harry potter series but I do know studio accounting is "fuzzy" at best.

      The studio wants the movie to lose as much money as possible on paper because it lessens or eliminates the amount of royalties they pay.

      This is easily accomplished with large studios who are part of an even larger conglomerate. They can pay one of the umbrella companies a very large sum (say for advertising/marketing) and significantly reduce the movies take with the stroke of a pen even though that same service could be sourced cheaper from outside contractor.

      According to the studio the Lord Of The Rings Movies, which made upwards of 6 billion, lost money also. Law suits were required to "find" the money the accountants hid to pay the Tolkien Family Trust and Peter Jackson what they were rightfully owed.

      This happens all the time in Hollywood. If you're a big name with deep resources like Jackson you can fight it but many new producers, directors etc. grin and bear it.

      Originally Posted by Rhys Davies View Post

      There were 3 or 4 movies last year that were major big budget movies. They all were in the red, for millions and millions of dollars.

      Let be honest, there's just as many movies launched as there are IM products.

      That doesn't mean the movie industry is starting to go dead in the water.

      Things aren't always what they seem though. Harry Potter 5 for example LOST $167 million dollars.

      Massive brand, with a massive following, losing that much money? Must mean the title has run its course.

      People all around the world were mocking Harry Potter saying its finally run its course... But it's what they couldn't see that told the real story.

      The production team spent millions on new state of the art cameras and other studio equipment. Taking millions out of the budget.

      All that new equipment though will be used on all there other movies for years and years. Making them billions of dollars extra.

      Same with these 2 launches. You don't see the massive lists that were made. You don't see market data/opinions that were found. You don't see the name and branding that comes out of it. You don't see the future sales.

      Not all things are what they seem at first glance.

      That's normally where the real money is. At the real business end.
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      • Profile picture of the author Coast2Coast
        Originally Posted by Kevin AKA Hubcap View Post

        I don't know if any new technologies were developed for the Harry potter series but I do know studio accounting is "fuzzy" at best.

        The studio wants the movie to lose as much money as possible on paper because it lessens or eliminates the amount of royalties they pay.

        This is easily accomplished with large studios who are part of an even larger conglomerate. They can pay one of the umbrella companies a very large sum (say for advertising/marketing) and significantly reduce the movies take with the stroke of a pen even though that same service could be sourced cheaper from outside contractor.

        According to the studio the Lord Of The Rings Movies, which made upwards of 6 billion, lost money also. Law suits were required to "find" the money the accountants hid to pay the Tolkien Family Trust and Peter Jackson what they were rightfully owed.

        This happens all the time in Hollywood. If you're a big name with deep resources like Jackson you can fight it but many new producers, directors etc. grin and bear it.

        Yeah and fwiw the reason the Harry Potter 5 case made the news last summer was because somebody leaked the studio's income statement which showed how they accomplished the accounting wizardry in this particular case, I can't post links yet but a search for 'harry potter 5 lost money' will bring up a few places where the doc is still viewable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Rhys,

    A lot of movies lose money at first. Many of them make their money on DVD sales, branding rights for toys and games, etc. You might call those profits "Launch echoes."


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    • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
      Exactly. Very valid point. Yet they still bombed and sucked because they lost money in the box office haha.

      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Rhys,

      A lot of movies lose money at first. Many of them make their money on DVD sales, branding rights for toys and games, etc. You might call those profits "Launch echoes."


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Rhys,
        Exactly. Very valid point. Yet they still bombed and sucked because they lost money in the box office haha.
        [chuckle]

        Like Bruce said, you never know how most of these things end up. Sometimes they bomb while looking like winners, sometimes they look like losers and are actually The Bomb.

        For example, one of my favorite schlock films, which looks like it would be a financial loser to most people who see it: "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" was filmed with a budget of $1.2 million, and has grossed around $140 million at the box office in the US so far, not counting DVD releases, foreign showings, and licensed products.

        It also gave a big boost to the careers of several of the actors. Most notably, Barry Bostwick and Tim Curry. While she was already somewhat more established in film and TV, it didn't hurt Susan Sarandon's career, either.


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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
          Paul,

          I think one of the biggest supposed "bombs" that saw tremendous success is Star Wars.

          Universal, who backed Lucas for American Graffiti, wouldn't touch it. In fact, no studio would except 20th Century Fox and when they agreed to finance it they let Lucas keep the merchandising and other rights.

          We all know how that turned out.

          If I was an exec that passed on it I'd kick myself in the a** on a daily basis just to remind myself to keep an open mind.

          Kinda like the "expert" book publishers who told JK Rowling "kids won't read some long, drawn out yarn about a boy wizard".

          But that's a story for another day [smile].

          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Rhys,[chuckle]

          Like Bruce said, you never know how most of these things end up. Sometimes they bomb while looking like winners, sometimes they look like losers and are actually The Bomb.

          For example, one of my favorite schlock films, which looks like it would be a financial loser to most people who see it: "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" was filmed with a budget of $1.2 million, and has grossed around $140 million at the box office in the US so far, not counting DVD releases, foreign showings, and licensed products.

          It also gave a big boost to the careers of several of the actors. Most notably, Barry Bostwick and Tim Curry. While she was already somewhat more established in film and TV, it didn't hurt Susan Sarandon's career, either.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
    Another invalid point about this is the whole "2 sales got me in the top 10, therefore the launch sucked."

    There's a very good reason why most leaderboards offer like $10,000 to the 1'st place affiliate and $100 to the 10th place affiliate.

    10th place normally doesn't bring in that many sales, compared to the rest. Like Jeff said, its normally the top few that bring in the bulk.

    If they did, they would offer more than $100 to 10th place.

    That's been the norm since IM began.

    * The invalid point that Kelly made in his email.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Rhys Davies View Post

      Another invalid point about this is the whole "2 sales got me in the top 10, therefore the launch sucked."

      There's a very good reason why most leaderboards offer like $10,000 to the 1'st place affiliate and $100 to the 10th place affiliate.

      10th place normally doesn't bring in that many sales, compared to the rest. Like Jeff said, its normally the top few that bring in the bulk.

      If they did, they would offer more than $100 to 10th place.

      That's been the norm since IM began.

      * The invalid point that Kelly made in his email.
      It's obvious that we didn't have the full context to the "2 sales" statement that was made. Upon further examination, this is only the second day of the launch, and it is far from over. In addition to that, the leaderboard positions and also sales figures constantly change until the very end, so it's a little premature to come to the conclusion that the launch "bombed" - this smacks of prejudice and a very skewed opinion of these high-ticket launches.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giani
    Most of the big launches are related to Internet Marketing and they offer similar products but with different strategies.

    I believe people want something new. A new product or new strategy or new technology. If you launch new product with same terms like traffic, blog, etc., it will not get good response.

    Internet Marketers with large list of subscribers would want to give a unique product to their list. There are almost 5-7 launches every week so who and how many would you promote?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Giani,
      Most of the big launches are related to Internet Marketing
      How do you know how many happen outside this market? Or how big they are?

      Leaping to some tall conclusions there, Superman.


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Shannon,

        Ah. He knows the real numbers behind most of these launches, but his "vested interest" makes that knowledge, and the facts it's based on, invalid? That is a ridiculous assertion.

        Especially given that what you've said about launches in this market closely echoes what Jeff has said about them. In this thread.

        The phrasing you've chosen amounts to calling him a liar, which is not an accurate statement when used to describe Jeff Walker. It also makes me quite unconcerned over your estimation of my opinion on the subject. Or much of anything else, for that matter.

        He's quite open about things like conversion rates, refund rates, drop-off on payment plans, and the rest. He's also not one to deny the amount of garbage in this market. Bringing that up as though he defends it suggests that you either don't know him very well or you've got a gripe of your own that's coloring your views.

        Do you wish to claim that any of the statements he's made are factually invalid? If so, which? And on what basis do you make the claim?

        Note that the specific launch in question is still in progress, and seems to be doing very well overall.

        [Side rant] Would you like to know why most people in this forum who talk about the big launches have such bad opinions of them? Because they go for the stuff that makes ridiculous promises of instant wealth. Then they assume that everyone who shares any of the characteristics associated with the bomb they bought is also selling garbage. Even if the only thing in common is a price point.

        Lazy, sloppy thinking, and greed. A bad mix. And they're happy to share their toxic mindset with the rest of us.


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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Shannon,


          Note that the specific launch in question is still in progress, and seems to be doing very well overall.

          [Side rant] Would you like to know why most people in this forum who talk about the big launches have such bad opinions of them? Because they go for the stuff that makes ridiculous promises of instant wealth. Then they assume that everyone who shares any of the characteristics associated with the bomb they bought is also selling garbage. Even if the only thing in common is a price point.

          Lazy, sloppy thinking, and greed. A bad mix. And they're happy to share their toxic mindset with the rest of us.


          Paul
          Paul, since we are talking about stuff people are going for and how the current launch is doing well...

          I would also like to point out a particular review about the current launch in the review section.

          Part of the promo for the current product launch was selling an iphone app and how Trey was doing very well with his program.

          Well, a member of this forum stated Trey emailed his 80k list several times to get those numbers up. Ironically, it was just before this launch and he is now using it as proof.

          He made it sound like he just uploaded the app to the app store and was getting sales. Now he will teach us the same way he picked his name so we can do it. Unfortunately, those people won't have 80k on their list to send to their apps.

          You also got a 30 day money back guarantee but the course doesn't start for another week. These people will find out how easy it is to make sales on iphone apps after the guarantee.

          That is misleading at best, imo. I can see why many people are mad at this stuff. I don't think it is fair to state (generalize) they are only going after the instant button crap.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Thomas,

            I didn't say only. I said most. And, based on the products they're generally talking about, I'll stand by that description.

            As for what was said in the reviews section, I'd need to know who said it and where the information came from before I'd waste 3 seconds considering the implications of the claim. I read more demonstrable lies online in a day than I hear offline in a month. Maybe 3 months.

            Bruce,

            As I said to Landis, I can see a reasonable person thinking of that as sarcasm. If you let the initial LOL set the tone, I can also see you thinking that way about the income comments. It's a mistaken impression, but a reasonable one.

            In all the time I've known him, I have never heard Jeff Walker refer to anyone or anything in the way that seems to have come across to you. Not once. Some folks in the business, yeah. But not Jeff.

            As far as Eben's motivation, I can only speculate. I don't know him personally at all. Never met him, never exchanged emails, nothing. Based on what I've heard from various people who are close to him, and from watching his videos and reading his emails, I'd guess he's a Teacher. For some people, that's as much a compulsion as being a writer, a dancer, or any other type of artist.

            The funny thing about your comment: We hear all the time that people should do well in other niches before they start selling "How to make money online" products. When they do, we hear "If he's supposedly doing so well in [niche], why would he want to sell MMO products?"

            Do you see the challenge with that dichotomy?

            Sort of like the "Denial is proof" and "If he doesn't deny it, it must be true" pairing.


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            • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Bruce,

              As I said to Landis, I can see a reasonable person thinking of that as sarcasm. If you let the initial LOL set the tone, I can also see you thinking that way about the income comments. It's a mistaken impression, but a reasonable one.

              In all the time I've known him, I have never heard Jeff Walker refer to anyone or anything in the way that seems to have come across to you. Not once. Some folks in the business, yeah. But not Jeff.
              I don't know him but I certainly heard him say this:

              "... otherwise I think you lose everyone but the people who have serious businesses, but, but for you know all the other ... you know ... the Warrior Forum folk, I think it has to be ... you know ... this is the magic bullet to get you traffic and convert that traffic."
              From which I can logically deduce that he believes:
              A) Warrior Forum folk do not have serious businesses
              B) Warrior Forum folk only buy magic bullets.
              C) (not directly from this quote but the same discussion) Its ok to promote something as a magic bullet when the author of the program specifically says it is NOT a magic bullet.

              So knowing all that, I freely admit that I will forever question his motives whenever he opens his mouth.

              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              As far as Eben's motivation, I can only speculate. I don't know him personally at all. Never met him, never exchanged emails, nothing. Based on what I've heard from various people who are close to him, and from watching his videos and reading his emails, I'd guess he's a Teacher. For some people, that's as much a compulsion as being a writer, a dancer, or any other type of artist.

              The funny thing about your comment: We hear all the time that people should do well in other niches before they start selling "How to make money online" products. When they do, we hear "If he's supposedly doing so well in [niche], why would he want to sell MMO products?"

              Do you see the challenge with that dichotomy?

              Sort of like the "Denial is proof" and "If he doesn't deny it, it must be true" pairing.
              I see the challenge. I don't have a problem with people expanding their businesses. I have met Eben at Yanik's Underground in LA 2 years ago. We registered at the same time and I introduced myself.

              Now I may be mistaken because its been 2 years and I don't know where my notes are, but I believe he spoke about the Hedgehog Concept, from the book "Good to Great". The concept is simple. Focus on one thing. Stick with what you know and pursue it with blind, dedicated fervor.

              If I'm right, and it was him, he is inconsistent with what he taught. If it was another speaker, I apologize in advance. I honestly don't remember.

              To his credit, one thing I KNOW he taught that day was to use a timer to force yourself to work fixed periods of time and to take scheduled breaks. To this day, I have a timer on my desk as I type this and it increased my productivity remarkably.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Bruce,

                Ah, yes. A beautiful example of what I mentioned earlier about someone with an agenda setting the tone for what the audience is about to read. Or, in this case, hear.
                From which I can logically deduce that he believes:
                A) Warrior Forum folk do not have serious businesses
                B) Warrior Forum folk only buy magic bullets.
                I believe we can agree that I can make the case that he does not mean ALL members here. If we put the words "Most of the" in front of those two statements, I'd say he's right. That's true of any large group of mostly inexperienced people looking to get into a business with high potential rewards and a perceived low cost of entry.

                If we change them to...

                A) Most of the Warrior Forum folk do not have serious businesses
                B) Most of the Warrior Forum folk are far more likely to buy magic bullets.


                ... then I think you'd have a really hard time arguing against the truth of either statement. He would be saying the exact same things that many of the more experienced members say about our own group, right here in the forum, each and every day.

                How many threads do we have every week that talk about the need for people here to stop looking for the magic bullet? Or which lament the fact that the way to sell a lot of copies of something in the WSO section is to paint it as a magic bullet? Or telling other members to get serious and start treating it like a business, and stop the search for a quick fix?

                There are plenty of people here with serious businesses. But they're still a small minority next to the folks who are just starting out, who're on their way, or who haven't begun to treat their online efforts in any way that could be called business, much less serious.

                Yep. Let's hate him for telling the same truth we tell here every single day of the year.
                C) (not directly from this quote but the same discussion) Its ok to promote something as a magic bullet when the author of the program specifically says it is NOT a magic bullet.
                First, that's an inference, and you've made it clear your inferences were slanted when you made them.

                Second: You're a copywriter. You know the shorthand. You know that's not a literal thing. And you know as well as anyone that it's standard to sell the sizzle. The trick to doing it ethically is that you must deliver the steak.

                I suspect you'd find that the majority of people who've bought PLF and actually gone through the thing would agree that Jeff delivers a steak to match his sizzle.

                Shannon will probably claim that the fact that Jeff and I are friends is somehow ionfluencing my interpretation. He'd have it backwards. The fact that I know Jeff Walker and how he thinks about this stuff is why we ended up becoming friends in the first place.

                Leave that aside, though. Leave aside the fact that I've never met anyone who knew Jeff personally who didn't like and respect him. Look at the fact that, when the subject of "thieving gurus" comes up, you rarely, if ever, hear anyone who's bought his products throwing him in with "that crowd." Look at the way people who've bought and used his product talk about it, and about him.

                No-one can please everyone. Jeff's products and his customer service come just about as close as anyone in this business.
                So knowing all that, I freely admit that I will forever question his motives whenever he opens his mouth.
                Given the circumstance, that's reasonable, but mistaken.
                [re: Eben] If I'm right, and it was him, he is inconsistent with what he taught.
                By that reasoning, he should never have done anything else once he mastered the PUA stuff.

                He's still doing the business thing he mastered and he's pursuing it in a most dedicated way. Selling quality instructional products by the boatload.

                I don't see the inconsistency, unless he specifically defined his business model as something conflicting with that. I can't say with any certainty, as I wasn't there.


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                • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
                  Paul,

                  Let me start by saying, I truly enjoy our little discussions. You're an exceptionally worthy adversary, skilled in the art of debate and thinking logically. Sincerely.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  If we change them to...

                  A) Most of the Warrior Forum folk do not have serious businesses
                  B) Most of the Warrior Forum folk are far more likely to buy magic bullets.


                  ... then I think you'd have a really hard time arguing against the truth of either statement.
                  I agree the reworded statement is 100% accurate.

                  Beyond those statements, is where we diverge.

                  Knowing those two facts, I would not conspire to position a product in an intellectually dishonest way, to capture a market I know will not benefit from it. I would not position a product as a "magic bullet" when I know it is not one. That is not selling the sizzle. That is selling air.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Yep. Let's hate him for telling the same truth we tell here every single day of the year.
                  Be careful with the hyperbole, Paul. I don't hate Jeff Walker or any of those guys. To hate would require them to have "hurt" me. None of them have. I've learned from them, right up to the boundaries of my own ethical standards.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Second: You're a copywriter. You know the shorthand. You know that's not a literal thing. And you know as well as anyone that it's standard to sell the sizzle. The trick to doing it ethically is that you must deliver the steak.
                  I agree. I can infer that you agree to do so without a steak lacks ethics.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  I suspect you'd find that the majority of people who've bought PLF and actually gone through the thing would agree that Jeff delivers a steak to match his sizzle.
                  I've heard this too. I'm convinced THAT product delivered a thick, juicy filet cooked to perfection. I'm not talking about that product.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  He's still doing the business thing he mastered and he's pursuing it in a most dedicated way. Selling quality instructional products by the boatload.

                  I don't see the inconsistency, unless he specifically defined his business model as something conflicting with that. I can't say with any certainty, as I wasn't there.
                  Well Paul, we can just keep widening the umbrella to make it fit. That was not how I perceived the message. In truth, I'm not sure he described his business model.

                  Ok, enough for now.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Bruce,

                  Leave aside the fact that I've never met anyone who knew Jeff personally who didn't like and respect him.
                  A-F*cking-Men!
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Could just be 'launch fatigue' finally setting in.

    With how many big ticket launches that have been done over the last few years....it's quite possible people are just tired of it and not buying anymore.
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      Have you seen the numbers people are pulling down with the $37 CB launches. They are giving away f'n Ferrari's in the PRELAUNCH - on MMO launches.
      Ya'll here on the WF may be sick of launches, but the general public ain't - and they are buying em up.

      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Could just be 'launch fatigue' finally setting in.

      With how many big ticket launches that have been done over the last few years....it's quite possible people are just tired of it and not buying anymore.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by kellyburdes View Post

        Have you seen the numbers people are pulling down with the $37 CB launches.
        Boy, you said a mouthful there. Imagine, selling a $37 product successfully! Or perhaps some of the "syndicate" should imagine it. I know a lot of people in this business and I know a LOT more Clickbank millionaires than non-Clickbank millionaires.

        It doesn't take a $2,000 product to make millions.
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        • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
          I don't really know any of the Syndicate guys, but I do know a lot of the Inner Circle guys. They test their prices because it's not about how much they make per sale, it's the EPC they get. Many of the products are pure crap, but that's not the point to them.
          The market here on the WF is getting tired of product launches, so what. If you think that the WF is the market, or even a large part of it then your out of touch. One recent launch, after its nearly 70% return rate and paying either 60 or 70% to affiliates (I can't remember) still made nearly $2million for the vendor.
          That's how "dead" product launches are in MMO.

          Kelly
          PS. just a side note I'm not in MMO and don't plan to be, but I'm friends with and talk to a number of people who are top level CB vendors in the niche.



          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          Boy, you said a mouthful there. Imagine, selling a $37 product successfully! Or perhaps some of the "syndicate" should imagine it. I know a lot of people in this business and I know a LOT more Clickbank millionaires than non-Clickbank millionaires.

          It doesn't take a $2,000 product to make millions.
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      • Profile picture of the author NetAffiliate
        Originally Posted by kellyburdes View Post

        Have you seen the numbers people are pulling down with the $37 CB launches. They are giving away f'n Ferrari's in the PRELAUNCH - on MMO launches.
        Ya'll here on the WF may be sick of launches, but the general public ain't - and they are buying em up.
        Imo, either (a) some do not want to believe that a "magic button" to making money online does not exist nor will it ever exist. or (b) they are product jumpers, jumping from one product to another in hopes that the next product is going to be the answer to their prayers.

        Who wants to hear that it takes a lot of planning and work to run a successful business online.

        "You need to make a plan and work hard to make money online"
        or
        "Push this button x times and you can start making money today"

        I was part of that "general public" at one point in my life that wanted to believe that the next product I purchased was going to be my ticket to millions, lol.

        I think people believe this stuff not because they are dumb or anything ...Sometimes it's easier to believe in the hype then to use common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    The phrasing you've chosen amounts to calling him a liar, which is not an accurate statement when used to describe Jeff Walker.
    Actually I was not calling him a lair. I was saying he is laying out an argument that persuades people to his point of view. Rightfully so, because he has a vested interest in weather or not people believe in the effectiveness of launches.

    That is the point I am trying to make. You are going to here one side from Jeff and that is Launches are awesome. No matter how far they are slipping in this market. Exceptionally since PLF is getting ready to launch again. And you are the first to come in swinging when you think someone is picking on your buddies.


    You are especially good at taking something someone says and Turing it into what ever will benefit your argument. Now, maybe I should have been more blunt so hear you go...

    Jeff is going to puff up launches right now because PLF is getting ready to launch. I am not calling him a lair I am calling him a marketer that is protecting a tactic that he has a vested interest in.


    Product Launches work but it comes with a lot more than what you are told and see. Product Launches are Slipping in the market because most, not all, of the products being released are over priced pieces of garbage.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    Plus I never said his points were "practically mute" because of the data. I said it was because of his vested interest in people believing in the effectiveness of the PLF.

    I then went on to back what he was saying. So how that turns into me having a problem with him is beyond me. The actual conclusion of my post was the main point and it was a point you seem to agree with.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    Shannon will probably claim that the fact that Jeff and I are friends is somehow ionfluencing my interpretation. He'd have it backwards. The fact that I know Jeff Walker and how he thinks about this stuff is why we ended up becoming friends in the first place.

    Ok, i will bite on your dig at me. So let me just quote what I actually said...

    Also, of course you are going to defend a friend so that almost puts you in the same class when it comes to the conversation.
    I went ahead and highlighted a very important word.

    Also, my point had nothing to do with your interpritation of his post. So, do not throw me in that category.

    If you read my post with an open mind you would have seen that I did not say one disparaging thing about Jeff.

    Shannon
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Shannon,
      I am not calling him a lair I am calling him a marketer that is protecting a tactic that he has a vested interest in.
      If he does it by distorting or misrepresenting facts, that's not marketing. It's lying.
      Jeff is going to puff up launches right now because PLF is getting ready to launch.
      "Puff up?" As I understand the term, that is a direct allegation of deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Or, in the common parlance, ya just called him a liar.

      Either that, or y'all mean somethin' real different by "puff up" than I do. That's certainly possible.
      And you are the first to come in swinging when you think someone is picking on your buddies.
      When they're being unfairly misrepresented? Yep. Guilty as charged. And when they're being called to task for something they actually did, I'm the first one to shut up and let them take their licks. It's not common among the people I consider friends, but it's happened.

      In case you haven't noticed, I'm also often the first one to come in swinging when someone unfairly attacks people I don't even know. And, on occasion, people for whom I have a strong personal dislike.

      If I don't know, I'll ask if the person making allegations has facts to back up their assertions. You've probably seen me pose that question more than once.

      If you find it odd that I treat my friends as well as I treat strangers and people I dislike, that's a problem. But it's not MY problem.
      Product Launches work but it comes with a lot more than what you are told and see.
      You have exactly zero idea of what I'm told and what I see, sir. There isn't a soul alive who has.

      Are launches slipping? Some, certainly.

      Are there a lot of garbage products being released in this space? Of course. That's always been true of any opportunity sector.

      Nothing new there.


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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Interesting thread, and instructional for anyone paying attention.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    "Puff up?" As I understand the term, that is a direct allegation of deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Or, in the common parlance, ya just called him a liar.
    Again you are twisting my words into something that allows you to further your point. You and everyone else knows exactly what I was talking about.

    Now, I am not going to get into a spin battle with you. I have said NOTHING disparaging about Jeff Walker, but because my post did not praise Jeff and PLF you are trying, and failing, to make me look like a bad guy that is Just a Jeff Walker "Guru Hater".

    Which I am not. But I do stand by my original point...

    Jeff Walkers points in this conversation are practically mute because he has a vested interest in whether or not people believe in the validity of product launches.

    And the reason product launches are slipping is because most, not all, of the recent launches are over priced garbage.

    Or wait... let me put this another way for you. Jeff is getting ready to relaunch PLF so he obviously does not want people to believe they are not as effective in this market.

    Oh wait, you could twist that into me calling him a lair.

    How about this...

    Jeff Walker is the most honest person on the face of the earth, but he has a vested interest in whether or not you believe that Product launches are slipping.

    I don't know, I am sure you will reach far enough into your wonderful vocabulary to school me on what I actually meant.

    As a side note... Jeff does not have to lie to defend his position on the effectiveness of launches.


    When they're being unfairly misrepresented? Yep. Guilty as charged. And when they're being called to task for something they actually did, I'm the first one to shut up and let them take their licks. It's not common among the people I consider friends, but it's happened.
    How is what I said "unfairly misrepresented" I said what Jeff said is factual. Product launches still work. I then went on to say that because of his vested interest, his point are practically mute.

    And if you actually think puffing up meant something bad...

    I puff up my wife all the time and it has nothing to do with lying...

    Honey you look amazing. - she does

    Honey I love the way you cook. - I do

    Babe you are an amazing mom. - she is



    Shannon

    Here is a link to the definition...

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/puff+up

    Let me point out what it says...

    4.puff up - praise extravagantly; "The critics puffed up this Broadway production"
    Sorry I was not taught to puff something up in a negative way. I was taught to puff things up in a good way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Shannon,
      Again you are twisting my words into something that allows you to further your point. You and everyone else knows exactly what I was talking about.
      I am not spinning anything. I'm addressing your points as I understand them. What you are saying may not mean "lying" to you, but it does to me.
      Your definition is just ridiculous and one you spun to try and make a point.
      Seriously? You've never experienced different interpretations of a colloquialism?

      I have never heard the phrase "puff up" used to mean anything like the examples you've just given. Not once, prior to your post.


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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    Interesting thread, and instructional for anyone paying attention.
    You are right...

    People see exactly what they want to see no matter how far from the truth it is. Even intelligent people with the gift of persuasive writing and a huge vocabulary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

      You are right...

      People see exactly what they want to see no matter how far from the truth it is. Even intelligent people with the gift of persuasive writing and a huge vocabulary.
      People do tend to see the world through their own filters, but what I was referring to was a caution against taking a position on a matter based on only one side of the story and/or on incomplete data.

      One thing I've noticed over the years here is that when someone makes a persuasive post, whether it's factually correct or not, there is often a rush of agreement. This agreement is often because the argument made speaks to the person's own preconceptions and biases, rather than because the person has given the matter any serious thought. In other words, it resonates emotionally.

      This emotional agreement often prevents a person from seeing intellectual red flags that might cast doubt on one's initial reflexive agreement.

      The reason I said the thread was instructive is because it starts off with one perspective, which drew agreement, until another perspective was offered. Suddenly the agreed upon truth had a completely different perspective.

      The moral of my caution is not to make snap judgments, but to look for other perspectives that may help us paint a more complete picture. I would rather base my reality on the most complete perspective I can uncover, rather than on fast, but often limited, conclusions.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Very entertaining thread. Funny thing isn't it - you get people saying "There's no money around"..."the economy is terrible"..."people just won't spend that kind of money on an online product" - meanwhile someone is beavering away in the background ignoring all the chatter and producing something that people actually need and want. Badly. And that's the point when price pretty much becomes irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with the price - it's got everything to do with the offer - and who its pitched to. There's plenty of money out there and plenty of people buying stuff. Including high ticket stuff. Marry the right list with the right product and Bingo - you're in the money.

    I'll give you an example. I just sold my apartment. The doomsayers advised me to wait "until the market picks up". Or to sell at a lesser price than what I wanted. I ignored that advice. I knew I had a good property that would be perfect for someone. So I gave it to one agent - an exclusive "sole agent" deal and we presented the apartment beautifully in stills and HD video. "Pitched it to a responsive list". At top whack. With "urgency" and "scarcity" built in.

    It sold to the first looker. The agent (at my suggestion) told her she could have a private viewing ("early bird offer") before it was officially put on the market (launched). She was told if she really wanted the apartment she would have to make a decision that day as there were already other buyers waiting in the wings (which was true but not at that price).

    High ticket product launches aren't dead. What may be dead, and a good thing too, is Launches pushing stuff that really doesn't deliver what it promises - at any price.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Anybody want some popcorn?

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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
      Seriously? You've never experienced different interpretations of a colloquialism?
      That is a fair point and I concede to the fact that I jumped to conclusions on what the definition actually meant. I did not know it was used negatively most of the time.

      I just believe it is important to point out that even though Jeff makes a great augment on why product launches are awesome, he has a vested interest in what you believe. And that should be noted.

      I also said, because you are friends with him it "could" mean you have a biased view and that should also be noted.

      If that comes off negatively that is not how I mean it.

      Shannon
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bruce,

        Thank you. I enjoy them, too. You know why you believe what you're saying. That's nowhere near as common as it ought to be.
        Knowing those two facts, I would not conspire to position a product in an intellectually dishonest way, to capture a market I know will not benefit from it. I would not position a product as a "magic bullet" when I know it is not one. That is not selling the sizzle. That is selling air.
        I don't think Jeff had any intention of doing any of those things. That's where our different experiences come into play, and why I think your position is both reasonable and mistaken.
        Be careful with the hyperbole, Paul. I don't hate Jeff Walker or any of those guys.
        Fair correction. That was meant as a general comment, but it wasn't phrased or separated in a way that would make that clear. My apologies.
        I've heard this too. I'm convinced THAT product delivered a thick, juicy filet cooked to perfection. I'm not talking about that product.
        Understood. I used Jeff's product to illustrate that he doesn't actually think or do things the way your posts might suggest. If there's an apparent conflict between the message you get from a person's words and what they actually do, believe the actions. It's impossible to DO a lie.

        Jeff's actions in the marketplace are a lot more convincing than an easily misinterpreted private conversation between friends who know each others' shorthand.


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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
    To those who think and/or believe that big launches only happen in the Internet Marketing niche: Boy oh boy, you need to get out more.

    That being said, there are SO MANY huge, huge launches happening in all sorts of weird niches every single day, it's not even funny.

    A big launch which happened very recently was by Bill Phillips in the fitness industry... The Transformation Solution Program - Discover The #1 Roadblock KEEPING You From Burning Up To 225% More Body Fat.

    Granted, Bill Phillips is an established expert in his niche, but the point of "big launch" remains. I was closely following this launch for a while, and I am an affiliate for them as well. It's easier to piggy back on big names, plus I know he always has quality products which I can confidently promote.

    Before the launch happened, a huge buzz was built all over the internet, via social networks, e-mail lists, videos, forums, you name it. This thing was ALL OVER the Internet, you couldn't walk (or surf) by any website having to do with the niche in one way or another and not seeing something about "The Transformation". The affiliates were given access to some tremendous resources to promote the buzz as well.

    In the end, when it launched, there was so much buzz about it in the industry that everyone just ran there to buy the product (consisting of eBooks, videos, audio, etc).

    I know he had a 7 figure launch. Price points have jumped from $97 to currently $47. They're on Clickbank currently with a gravity of 83, but let me tell you something: That gravity of 83 is more real than a gravity of 2000 by the likes of Mass Money Makers and such will ever be.

    That's just one example, there are many which happen everyday. Just because I don't know about them, doesn't mean they're not happening.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shane N
    My product launches have been going just fine and according to plan!

    Best,
    Shane
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      mgtarheel,

      What I'm doing, as I've been explaining to you via PM, is enforcing a policy that's been in place a long time. There are sites we don't allow links to. We also don't allow bashing of those sites or their owners here. Their beliefs are their business. Keeping the conflict that comes with those discussions out of this site is ours.

      We have quite enough conflicts of our own.

      Shannon,

      I believe you mean what you're saying. I also have a very different read on it than what you're suggesting to be your intent.

      If your words convey a meaning that's different than your intent, that's a communication problem. I'm going to address the meaning I see as being conveyed.


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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

      Paul, why'd you delete more of my posts?
      Because you are continuing to do what you were told is not allowed. Just in a less direct way.

      Edit: I also deleted the posts bashing the gentleman you were referring to.


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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    mgtarheels: I answered your question. See post 92. You are continuing to do what you were asked not to do.

    Ladies and gentleman, this is what happens when you offer to explain a policy decision to someone privately. They think it's a debate, and they push things.

    There are topics and people and sites that are not allowed to be discussed here. Not in a good way or a bad way. The topics include politics, religion, Rule #1 violations, other forums in this market (in any way, good or bad), and general muckraking. The primary reason for all of them is that they tend to turn rational conversations into flamefests and paranoid conspiracy spew.

    They breed divisiveness and they create forum wars and other stupidities.

    If you want to call that censorship, I'm fine with that. But it's an even-handed censorship. It's "topic not allowed," not "only if we agree with you."

    I'm going to remind you also that it's a long standing and well known policy to not allow complaints about deleted posts. There isn't another moderator on this board who wouldn't have banned a few people in this thread a long time ago.

    If you wish to provoke that in order to "prove a point," that's up to you.


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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Let's get back on track as I myself have been diverted from the point I originally wanted to make.

    Relative to Walker's comments:
    The deal is that in the "make money
    online" market there are a half-dozen launches a
    week. And it's rare when there aren't at least two
    MAJOR launches by "big dog" marketers going at
    the same time.

    That means it's harder to cut through the noise.
    You have to be better than the average marketer,
    and you have to be more creative with your
    prelaunch, and you have to work harder to get JVs
    onboard... and ABOVE ALL you need to have a great
    offer - what I call a CRUSHING OFFER.
    What Jeff alludes to is, the market is more crowded than it used to be. There is more competition. Similar products are in greater supply.

    It's simple economics folks. Greater supplies are always met with lower prices. To fail to recognize this is to fail to understand business. Sure, you can try to position your products as being of higher quality, you can try to position your products as having greater value. But in the end, you will bow to the free market.

    The price disparity is too great.

    For every guru product, there will be competing products by lesser known marketers, at much lower prices. At some point, the disparity is so great ($2700 vs $97 for example) that you can't sell the value.

    You're expecting a 25-50X premium? Mercedes doesn't enjoy that kind of premium over a Kia for god sakes. Your mistake is in thinking you're selling McClaren F1s when the truth is, you may have a Lexus vs a Chevy.

    I wish someone would have the guts to try and bring the prices down just for a freakin' test and see what happens. I know Reese proposed this years ago while apologetically accepting partial responsibility for causing them to get so high in the first place.

    Either way, it will happen. You can't ignore the economic drivers forever. Not many people are going to continue to mail 100,000 subscribers for 2 sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      Let's get back on track as I myself have been diverted from the point I originally wanted to make.

      Relative to Walker's comments:


      What Jeff alludes to is, the market is more crowded than it used to be. There is more competition. Similar products are in greater supply.

      It's simple economics folks. Greater supplies are always met with lower prices. To fail to recognize this is to fail to understand business. Sure, you can try to position your products as being of higher quality, you can try to position your products as having greater value. But in the end, you will bow to the free market.

      The price disparity is too great.

      For every guru product, there will be competing products by lesser known marketers, at much lower prices. At some point, the disparity is so great ($2700 vs $97 for example) that you can't sell the value.

      You're expecting a 25-50X premium? Mercedes doesn't enjoy that kind of premium over a Kia for god sakes. Your mistake is in thinking you're selling McClaren F1s when the truth is, you may have a Lexus vs a Chevy.

      I wish someone would have the guts to try and bring the prices down just for a freakin' test and see what happens. I know Reese proposed this years ago while apologetically accepting partial responsibility for causing them to get so high in the first place.

      Either way, it will happen. You can't ignore the economic drivers forever. Not many people are going to continue to mail 100,000 subscribers for 2 sales.
      I like Jeff Walker a lot and PLF has worked wonders for my business over the years, but I think you've got a great point.

      On the WSO forum here I remember back in 2007/08 it was pretty typical for WSO's to sell for higher price points such as $67, $97, $147 etc

      In the last couple of years however, there's been a major shift and now even a $37 WSO is considered expensive.

      Although many WSO sellers claim they still make just as much money, because of the increased number of sales at the lower price points.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      It's simple economics folks. Greater supplies are always met with lower prices. To fail to recognize this is to fail to understand business. Sure, you can try to position your products as being of higher quality, you can try to position your products as having greater value. But in the end, you will bow to the free market.

      The price disparity is too great.

      For every guru product, there will be competing products by lesser known marketers, at much lower prices. At some point, the disparity is so great ($2700 vs $97 for example) that you can't sell the value.
      And if the Top level marketers prices dropped where do you think the price points would end up for the competing products?

      If PLF went to $197 how much room would there be to create a competing product from someone with none of the credentials Jeff has?

      By cutting prices the Top level marketers really would be stifling competition
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Hi Robert,

        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        If PLF went to $197 how much room would there be to create a competing product from someone with none of the credentials Jeff has?

        By cutting prices the Top level marketers really would be stifling competition
        So...by that logic, JK Rowling, for example, should be pricing her paperbacks at two hundred bucks, so as not to stifle competition?

        Like Bruce, I think it would be interesting to see what (if any) effect a lower price point would have on PLF-type launch sales. I don't see that happening, though, because I suspect the main reason for the current pricing structure is to funnel the most affiliate revenue into the fewest JV pockets as necessary.

        A lower selling price with a correspondingly (vastly) reduced commission would likely result in the high-level JV partners passing - and if any of them were to promote, they'd have to deal with a lot more competition from regular affiliates.

        The overall profits for the product creator might end up the same or better, but it would be a brave marketer who first takes that risk.


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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Hi Robert,

          So...by that logic, JK Rowling, for example, should be pricing her paperbacks at two hundred bucks, so as not to stifle competition?

          Frank
          Dont be silly Frank

          Nobody is going to come out with an alternative to a JK rowling novel and try and sell it as an alternative to Harry Potter. its not the same and you know it.

          But i promised myself to stay away from this thread, so this is my last comment

          All I know is the high ticket launches gives a lot of people an opportunity to rush out competing products at the $197 and lower price point, which they would no longer be able to do if the big ticket products took that price space in the market.

          The competing products would have to go to $7 products otherwise why buy the cheaper product, if the price gap wasnt that big.

          Why buy a 2nd hand car if a new one was only $100 more is the point

          Those launches open up a huge gap in the market place for 20 other marketers to compete in
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          • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
            Man, I wish I could generate this much free publicity for one of my products..without even being involved in the thread

            This is a superb thread and I do think the OP has a valid point. I've noticed on this recent launch that trey and frank seem to be adding more bonus's every day, now paint me pink and call me cynical but to me that indicates that sales aren't going as expected.

            I didn't watch the final sales video so I don't know if Trey had a cap on the number of copies sold to add scarcity, but I remember that when the $1997 products started appearing they were still selling out pretty quickly. It doesn't seem to be happensing at the "New" $$2700 -$2995 price point.

            I suppose the next launch will tell us if that price point has been a failure
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            • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
              I'll paint you pink and assume your not familiar with the basic's of either product launch formula or mass control, cos in both of them they talk about stacking the offer as the launch goes.


              Originally Posted by M Thompson View Post


              This is a superb thread and I do think the OP has a valid point. I've noticed on this recent launch that trey and frank seem to be adding more bonus's every day, now paint me pink and call me cynical but to me that indicates that sales aren't going as expected.
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Robert,

            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            Dont be silly Frank
            I was only being a little silly.

            Your argument suggests that higher priced products are invariably superior products; whereas, in reality, they often command their premium prices simply because of the name of the product creator and the 'authority' of those promoting them.

            If similar products sold for similar prices, the better products (and/or the better-marketed products) would still rise to the top, just like in any free market. All an inflated price does by way of competition is encourage a spate of watered down imitators riding on the back of the current hype.

            That's not true competition, IMO.


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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

              Robert,



              I was only being a little silly.

              Your argument suggests that higher priced products are invariably superior products; whereas, in reality, they often command their premium prices simply because of the name of the product creator and the 'authority' of those promoting them.

              If similar products sold for similar prices, the better products (and/or the better-marketed products) would still rise to the top, just like in any free market. All an inflated price does by way of competition is encourage a spate of watered down imitators riding on the back of the current hype.

              That's not true competition, IMO.


              Frank
              I couldnt resist this...

              You mean like designer labels command higher prices because of the name tag attached to them?

              And how competing lower priced products are sold in there millions as alternatives because of designer labels ?

              Seems a standard very sensible business practice to me. High price designer labels spawn 100's of other products in the market place driving down prices for similar goods.

              The problem with this is what Frank?

              The products they spawn in competetion put a lot of people in work, drive the over all demand and raise revenues all across the industry
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              • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                You mean like designer labels command higher prices because of the name tag attached to them?

                And how competing lower priced products are sold in there millions as alternatives because of designer labels ?

                Seems a standard very sensible business practice to me. High price designer labels spawn 100's of other products in the market place driving down prices for similar goods.

                The problem with this is what Frank?
                I see absolutely no problem with that - as long as you view an IM product as a fashion accessory or lifestyle statement, rather than a business tool.

                But hey - I guess you pays your money...


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              • Profile picture of the author Christina Osorio
                Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                I couldnt resist this...

                You mean like designer labels command higher prices because of the name tag attached to them?

                And how competing lower priced products are sold in there millions as alternatives because of designer labels ?

                Seems a standard very sensible business practice to me. High price designer labels spawn 100's of other products in the market place driving down prices for similar goods.

                The problem with this is what Frank?

                The products they spawn in competetion put a lot of people in work, drive the over all demand and raise revenues all across the industry
                So glad you couldn't resist this one because you are absolutely 100% CORRECT! Finally someone shut up long enough and stopped shouting "leave my friend alone" long enough to discuss the issue at hand.

                Mr. Puddy you have my thanks! There are some serious business ethics missing here. A school child could deduce that if presented the situation. Will the big boys ever decide to play nice? Not likely because the business model works. Unfortunately only for them.

                The best thing we can do is continue to run our businesses with integrity and lead by example. We don't have to buy in to the product they are selling or promote it for them.

                Thanks again,

                Christina

                Allen this is just a statement and does not require a response.

                Although your friend (whose name escapes me right now that's how unimpressed I was) feels less than respectful about the quality of marketer found here on the forum. And you support him in his opinion. While defending yourself in the same sentence for doing so.

                I personally, being a forum member find your stance unfortunate. You are the owner of this forum and I expected you would at LEAST defend it's members. You however chose to defend a friend interesting.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post


                The products they spawn in competetion put a lot of people in work, drive the over all demand and raise revenues all across the industry
                I don't see it.

                A lot of their material isn't anything new. They just repackaged it to suit their market.

                Not everyone competes based on price. If a competitor of mine dropped their price I would look to add value to justify purchasing from me. I wouldn't drop my price.
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                • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  I don't see it.

                  A lot of their material isn't anything new. They just repackaged it to suit their market.

                  Not everyone competes based on price. If a competitor of mine dropped their price I would look to add value to justify purchasing from me. I wouldn't drop my price.
                  I think you misread what i said...

                  What i said was once a high price product gets launched 20 other marketers very speedilly come out with competing products at a lower price. They cash in on the hype of the higher end product.

                  Its an industry on its own, with folks out there eagerly waiting for the next big launch so they can make a copy at a lower price point

                  I still say it drives the market at the lower end, and isnt a bad thing
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                    I think you misread what i said...

                    What i said was once a high price product gets launched 20 other marketers very speedilly come out with competing products at a lower price. They cash in on the hype of the higher end product.

                    Its an industry on its own, with folks out there eagerly waiting for the next big launch so they can make a copy at a lower price point

                    I still say it drives the market at the lower end, and isnt a bad thing

                    I definitely did misread your statements. My apologizes.

                    I don't feel too bad for those types of products making less. Maybe they will start putting more effort into their products and marketing instead of relying on the hype of other products.
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        And if the Top level marketers prices dropped where do you think the price points would end up for the competing products?

        If PLF went to $197 how much room would there be to create a competing product from someone with none of the credentials Jeff has?

        By cutting prices the Top level marketers really would be stifling competition
        You don't think the name and reputation behind the product makes a difference in perception?

        I do.

        Let's say I have $100 to spend on a formal gown. I find a Vera Wang, in my size, for $97 (yeah, it's on sale!). I also find a lookalike gown at Target for $97.

        Which $97 gown do you think I will buy?

        Or say, (me being a copywriter), Bencivenga comes out of retirement, and offers a 7-page guide on copywriting, for $97.

        At the same time, some no-name offers me a 300-page comprehensive tome on copywriting, also for $97.

        Which guide do you think I'd immediately drop my $97 on?

        If you said, respectively, "Vera Wang" and "Bencivenga", you'd be right.

        Sometimes price points are a reflection of actual value, and sometimes they're meant to protect a branding position.

        If competition from the top means that the goods offered at a lower price point have to have an equal or better value than the brand name version, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

        To go back to the gown analogy:

        Let's say I know something about clothing and design. So I know that the Vera Wang label is a steal at $97. But I pick up the garment and find the cloth has been cut wrong, there are open, crooked seams, and puckered threads.

        However, I discover that the Target gown is constructed with clean flat-fell seams, drapes smoothly on my body, and fits almost perfectly.

        Now where do you think I would spend my $97?

        So... to return to the launch topic... I'm not sure that price point is the overiding issue.

        Or that lowering the price point on a good product stifles the competition.

        I see it as raising the bar for the bottom-feeders.

        *goes back to her popcorn*
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    In reference to the launch in the original post, I bet Ed Dale is doing great with this promotion. If you follow Ed on Twitter you will know he is an Apple 'fanboy' and is always talking about his latest aps and how great the ipads etc are. He seems to convert a lot of people to Apple as well. His followers seem prime candidates for this type of product and surely would have responded well.

    I'd think that the idea of Software development would scare quite a few people, especially those who are just getting comfortable with creating websites. It would appeal to a narrower range of people than a general MMO business model, IMHO. I can't imagine it would be easy to sway people to take on a different direction to affiliate and email marketing - that has the been the basis for all the other launches you have promoted.

    Edit: Would you guys consider Tim Ferriss' '4 Hour Body' a successful product launch outside of the MMO niche?? From what I saw his process was very similar to what a lot of these digital products do - without the scarcity, and the high price point. He has me wanting to buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    Firstly, I think in my three or four years of being on the forum this is the most entertaining/interesting thread I've read.

    I won't make a long post because my thoughts are very similar to Paul and Jeff's (both of whom I've never talked to off the forum).

    However over the years I've got on many affiliate lists and worked with a handful of the "gurus". Launches, I'll agree, are getting smaller as of late but are far from dead by any means. It's not that launches can't be big, it's that the "perfect storm" that made products like Mass Control, PLF, etc so wildly successful hasn't been prevalent as of late. I have no doubt it will return in launches in 2011 and on.

    Jeff and Paul together have hit on all the points I'd say make up the perfect storm already but I'll summarize:

    1) Competition - When PLF, Mass Control, etc hit the market not only was there less high-ticket launches but Clickbank was also much smaller of a group and there was no real concentrated effort in pumping out new products like there is now. This made everyone really focus 100% on the big ticket product launch, instead of getting e-mails about loads of different products.

    2) Material - I was actually going to make a blog post a few weeks ago on exactly what Jeff mentioned in his blog post linked on the front page of this thread. Launches as of late haven't had the "immediate, money in your pocket tomorrow" effect. And as a result the urgency factor just hasn't been there. This is a result of the material taught, not some shift in the mindsets of buyers.

    3) Syndicate - Probably one of the words I hate using the most. But, as with anything, as time goes on some members of the original group of "gurus" have moved on, branched into different areas or they don't mail for as much anymore. Nothing wrong with that. There just isn't, and I've heard it from a few of the "gurus", the same concentrated effort on launches there used to be. And that most certainly isn't meant to insinuate a lesser degree of value in products; it's just the way it is.

    4) Saturation - This kind of goes hand-in-hand with the first point. Because of the increased competition, in both high-ticket and low-ticket launches, buyers are becoming saturated with offers. This is NOT to say they're spending less, I believe that's not the case at all. It's just that they're spending their money on whatever the new thing is that week, instead of saving and waiting for xyz's new launch.

    I believe all these factors have played a role in launches doing a little less volume as of late than say a year or two ago. If there was a concentrated effort, like there used to be, I have no doubt you'd be seeing launches as big as ever.

    Remember that everything goes in cycles as well. Just as for a six month period in early 2010 there was a string of very high-grossing product launches there was also a bit of a lull in the second half of 2010. No doubt there will be another high-grossing cycle kicking in sometime this year with a string of above-average launches.

    And, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I won't name names but I talked to a good friend of mine a few months ago who did a high-ticket 2k launch and he said if they made one tweak (that they did on the second day) on the first day they would've gone from 1.5 million in sales on the first day to 2.5 roughly. I won't say what their end revenue was, but it was just as big as PLF or List Control was and it took place just half a year ago or so with a few of the "perfect storm" elements lacking.

    In January the two major high-ticket launches did about 2.0-2.5 and 3.0-3.5 in revenue I believe it was. Not too shabby and not really "bombing" material.

    Cheers,

    Zach

    P.S - I'm about to go kill Trey in some Black Ops. I'll make sure to ask him, as he watches the sales roll in, what his thoughts are. I have a feeling I'll get laughed at.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    This thread makes me glad I never hear about all these big launches and gurus and stuff like that. I've heard of Frank Kern and that's about it, ignorance is bliss!

    I agree with the post above saying u can outsource with 2k and it's better spent. I'd say 2k is best kept in the bank. Join the war room, use a bit for domains and test advertising and small outsourcing jobs. Sometimes you can get great roi on $10 spent on advertising or services eG 1 or 2 articles or some backlinks.
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    • Profile picture of the author jan roos
      I see a hell of a lot people complaining and saying they are tired of the way the gurus sell their products.

      They are tired of seeing unbelievable income claims, selling pipedreams to where the customer only has to push two buttons and their bank accounts will explode. All the hype in the sales letters is turning people off and they are screaming for something different.

      Give it to them and you'll be fine. This is what I'm doing and it's working just fine so far.

      Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author NetAffiliate
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If a product doesn't sell, it's the affiliates' fault.

    If a product doesn't work, it's the customers' fault.

    The gurus have spoken. Hear them, tremble and obey.
    lol, now that was funny.
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
    I agree with you there Net - I went through the same thing myself, going from one sure thing that would work while I sat on the beach scammin on girls drinking taquila to the next. I was on the merry go round for a long time until I asked myself why being successful online should be any different vs being successful anyplace else. Once I figured out it wasn't, then I was on my way.
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  • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
    It seems that even these high-ticket MMO products aren't as lucrative as some of the new software products that come out constantly, promising to help you annihilate the search engines and build a million back links per week...and charging you $97 or $147 per month as a recurring fee. I have yet to find a high-priced automated software that delivers anything close to what is promised on the sales page. But some of the cheaper stuff is very helpful, and works...
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  • Profile picture of the author LauraJames
    Perhaps people involved in IM are becoming smarter, at least when it comes to giving a lot of consideration before paying $2,000.00 for the latest product being pushed by a so-called "guru." As the owner of my own business, I do not purchase items offered through any of the online product launches. To me, it is likely that many people realise (realize) that it is possible to get the same, or at least similar, information for a lot less money through other reliable sources. It's all part of being an educated (self-educated) marketer and accepting that this is an ongoing process.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
    It's quite interesting that most people who think the launches are bombing, have never actually had or worked behind the scenes on a big time launch.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    Here's the dealio people....

    1. people are getting burnt out on the usual launch fiasco, especially when you aren't offering anything of value (trying to do a product launch with a scarcity mindset)

    2. the schmucks out there have taken the launch model and F'ed it for everyone... their whole model is get ppl to mail, launch a product with a 2 week shelf life, then do it again, and again. (product has no shelf life)

    3. The economy sucks people. I'm in miami and every day i meet someone who's filed for bankruptcy or who's really hurting for money. They're gonna be a bit more cautious on what they buy. The days of people free spending are gone (for now).

    4. Some of the products and hooks are really pathetically bad.... even from "good" marketers. you aren't gonna hit a home run everytime. (case in point ebens launch, love the guy, he's a master, but proof you aren't gonna crush it each time)

    5. There really hasn't been anything "new" in the market in the last couple of years... its a lull in the IM space....

    That said, if you do things right... you can make a F*cking TON of money and build a good business... (key words being: if you do things right).
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    I think Robert has a decent point. The problem is, as I've already pointed out, the price disparity. The 20-50-100X premiums are ridiculous. To stick with your designer clothing analogy, Louis Vuitton and Versace do command 50-100X premiums but they're appealing to the ego and you get a payback everytime you use it.

    You're selling tools and information. There's no ego attached to owning a Frank Kern product. Its f*cking information. You can put bells and whistles on it but for every information product out there, the same information exists, or will exist after release when someone copies it.

    The same applies to tools, even more so. I've never seen a guru tool that was world class software. And there's always pre-existing or knockoff products.

    Your argument that if PLF was $197, competing products would have to go to $7 is specious. Depending on perceived value and nuts and bolts comparisons, a $47, $77 or even $97 product would compete fine.

    But you don't have to believe me. Just look at what is out there. Look at Brad Callen's competition. Look at Market Samurai. Both those guys make millions (plural) with nothing selling over $176 and there is plenty of competition for keyword tools way above the $7 price point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Bruce,

      If you'd quit worrying about other people's businesses you might have a chance to quit being such a crotchety old man.

      Why are you so worried about what other people do?

      I wonder if you ever smile and enjoy yourself?

      You should go fishing more often man.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Bruce,

        If you'd quit worrying about other people's businesses you might have a chance to quit being such a crotchety old man.

        Why are you so worried about what other people do?

        I wonder if you ever smile and enjoy yourself?

        You should go fishing more often man.
        Thanks for you concern, Jason. Actually, I've got a first class flight to Bogota, Colombia for 2 weeks, leaving next Sunday. Perhaps a little salsa, Argentinian beef filet, Chilean wine and hermosa Colombianas will help my attitude.

        What am I saying that's bothering you so much to come out of hiding and insult me, oh peaceful one?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          What am I saying that's bothering you so much to come out of hiding and insult me, oh peaceful one?
          Pretty much every post I've seen from you lately. It's almost like a sophisticated troll of sorts, constantly tearing people down. It's pretty sad dude. I expect it from some others around here, but I know you've got more talent than that.

          Enjoy your trip.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Jason,
        Why are you so worried about what other people do?
        And the winner of the "Ironic Question of the Week" award is...


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Jason,And the winner of the "Ironic Question of the Week" award is...


          Paul
          I'd like to thank the academy!
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Christina,

          Allen hasn't posted in this thread at all, and I doubt he's paid any attention to it. As far as the comment...
          this is just a statement and does not require a response.
          How kind of you to free us all from the obligation to reply to your uninformed attempt at righteousness.

          Bruce,
          I'm not making it anymore personal than I have to and I'm sure Paul would agree.
          Yup.


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Bruce,

        If you'd quit worrying about other people's businesses you might have a chance to quit being such a crotchety old man.

        Why are you so worried about what other people do?

        I wonder if you ever smile and enjoy yourself?

        You should go fishing more often man.
        Funny, I don't see Bruce that way at all from his posts. I wouldn't want to be in a forum where everyone just agreed with each other.

        I enjoy reading Bruce's take on things. He normally doesn't get personal and brings a lot of well thought out arguments.

        I think we need more people like him here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      There's no ego attached to owning a Frank Kern product. Its f*cking information.
      I disagree with this a bit. I think that there is an ego thing attached to this for many.
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      • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
        If you live long enough and experience a certain aspect of life long enough you'll see the circle of life.

        Whatever that aspect may be.

        You will see every thing twice, going out and coming back in.
        The MMO market is already starting the 180, the "new" way is the "bashing" of the "old guard" of MMO. See it a lot in ads now.

        The market will determine most marketers approach. Always has, always will.
        I have defended people who have posted rants about "cleaning up the act",
        while other people have crucified them saying, "don't tell us how to run our business".

        Honesty... do I really think that will happen?

        NO...as George Carlin once said..if you introduce honesty into the equation, you 'll ruin the economy.

        Nobody can tell anyone how to run their business.

        If you run a business the market will determine that, if you wish to stay in business.

        However, the way I see it, the "push button magic" act has gone stale.

        But the so called "guru" bashing technique, will have it's own problems.

        Burying good teachers and products with something worthwhile to teach
        ,
        (and, oh yes their are some), with the dregs and their copywriters gone wild.

        The newer people need to smarten up and get some simple experience under their belts, before buying anything. How would you even begin to understand what is worthwhile to you and what isn't?

        Greed is the common denominator, someone who wants something for nothing, and somebody that's happy to sell them the illusion.

        Doesn't matter the price.


        The blame is equal.

        As P.T. Barnum once said , "there is one born every minute".

        And there's the cycle again
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

          If you live long enough and experience a certain aspect of life long enough you'll see the circle of life.

          Whatever that aspect may be.

          You will see every thing twice, going out and coming back in.
          The MMO market is already starting the 180, the "new" way is the "bashing" of the "old guard" of MMO. See it a lot in ads now.

          The market will determine most marketers approach. Always has, always will.
          I have defended people who have posted rants about "cleaning up the act",
          while other people have crucified them saying, "don't tell us how to run our business".

          Honesty... do I really think that will happen?

          NO...as George Carlin once said..if you introduce honesty into the equation, you 'll ruin the economy.

          Nobody can tell anyone how to run their business.

          If you run a business the market will determine that, if you wish to stay in business.

          However, the way I see it, the "push button magic" act has gone stale.

          But the so called "guru" bashing technique, will have it's own problems.

          Burying good teachers and products with something worthwhile to teach
          ,
          (and, oh yes their are some), with the dregs and their copywriters gone wild.

          The newer people need to smarten up and get some simple experience under their belts, before buying anything. How would you even begin to understand what is worthwhile to you and what isn't?

          Greed is the common denominator, someone who wants something for nothing, and somebody that's happy to sell them the illusion.

          Doesn't matter the price.


          The blame is equal.

          As P.T. Barnum once said , "there is one born every minute".

          And there's the cycle again
          I couldn't agree more. This is a cyclical thing that will inevitably continue to repeat itself - no amount of bashing, ranting and cursing will cause it to die, no matter how much you want it to.

          It's just business, and regardless of our preferences and inclinations, these different phases in the market will eventually repeat themselves. What's the point in ranting about it?

          There are irresistible and massive market forces at work that are simply beyond our control, and when it comes right down to it this is just business. If there's a way to make money and it works (and isn't illegal), people will eventually find and exploit it for all it's worth. It's just a matter of supply catching up to demand.

          Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      One thing to consider is that without having an in depth conversation with Jeff in person it's hard to know exactly what it is that he wants out of his business, and where he is making the most money.

      An example: I know that he also runs pretty big launches for other people in the Real Estate Market, he's actually partners with one of the big guns over there. I don't know how much of Greg's business he owns, I've heard half -but I've never talked to either of them myself. I do know from talking to many of Greg's affiliates that he has a mid seven figure per year biz doing his launches.

      I've done product launches for other people before, it's very lucrative business to get in -but hard to generate the leads too.

      If I was ever going to release an IM course myself the only reason i would do it would be for lead generation to get in on other people's established business for a %. If that was your model you'd want your product to be as expensive as possible because that premium you've already established for yourself is also going to carry over to what you can charge your new partner/client.




      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      I think Robert has a decent point. The problem is, as I've already pointed out, the price disparity. The 20-50-100X premiums are ridiculous. To stick with your designer clothing analogy, Louis Vuitton and Versace do command 50-100X premiums but they're appealing to the ego and you get a payback everytime you use it.

      You're selling tools and information. There's no ego attached to owning a Frank Kern product. Its f*cking information. You can put bells and whistles on it but for every information product out there, the same information exists, or will exist after release when someone copies it.

      The same applies to tools, even more so. I've never seen a guru tool that was world class software. And there's always pre-existing or knockoff products.

      Your argument that if PLF was $197, competing products would have to go to $7 is specious. Depending on perceived value and nuts and bolts comparisons, a $47, $77 or even $97 product would compete fine.

      But you don't have to believe me. Just look at what is out there. Look at Brad Callen's competition. Look at Market Samurai. Both those guys make millions (plural) with nothing selling over $176 and there is plenty of competition for keyword tools way above the $7 price point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      You're selling tools and information. There's no ego attached to owning a Frank Kern product. Its f*cking information. You can put bells and whistles on it but for every information product out there, the same information exists, or will exist after release when someone copies it.
      I think you got this bit wrong though Bruce...

      I have been around many a conversation with people bragging they got Franks latest product release.

      But i have to say then coming out with high ticket items makes selling at the 297 price point so much easier for others.

      Now personally my businees model has always been free on the front end and make the money on upsells and login offers so I appreciate there are other ways of doing business

      I just dont see how there way is any better or worse than mine its just a busines strategy, so it follows i cant for the life of me see why people bother to get bent out of shape over it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        I think you got this bit wrong though Bruce...

        I have been around many a conversation with people bragging they got Franks latest product release.

        I cant for the life of me see why people bother to get bent out of shape over it.
        Hi Robert,

        Yes, I knew when I posted that, that there are some people who brag about buying products. They're a small minority and the effect they get is probably not what they think it is.

        As for getting bent out of shape, I hope I don't give that impression. I just find it an interesting business discussion. As I've said before, I'm not the market and I don't buy any of these products.
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          Hi Robert,
          As for getting bent out of shape, I hope I don't give that impression. I just find it an interesting business discussion. As I've said before, I'm not the market and I don't buy any of these products.
          Well maybe not you personally, but there are people out there who would have them burnt on a flaming cross if they could. For what?

          because they out market other groups

          Cause thats the other thing Bruce there are plenty of other groups out there that do similar things its just they aren't as good at it so the "top group" get all the flaming arrows directed at them.

          It isnt a crime to get top price for your products. With pricing its always been a case of what the market will bear not what you think.

          You yourself on your copywriting maniac page say

          You will NEVER get rich selling a $47 e-book...As you build your customer base and your relationship with them, via email, offer them a $497 product and it may culminate in a $2497 or more premier package.
          The difference with them is instead of selling a $47 ebook they usually give that away in the pre launch.

          I guess I just dont see evil in what they do, but there are a whole bunch of dissaffected folks out there that do...And thats just plain wrong

          PS: See Shauns reply below... no logic at all just flaming arrows
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            Well maybe not you personally, but there are people out there who would have them burnt on a flaming cross if they could. For what?

            because they out market other groups

            Cause thats the other thing Bruce there are plenty of other groups out there that do similar things its just they aren't as good at it so the "top group" get all the flaming arrows directed at them.

            It isnt a crime to get top price for your products. With pricing its always been a case of what the market will bear not what you think.

            You yourself on your copywriting maniac page say



            The difference with them is instead of selling a $47 ebook they usually give that away in the pre launch.

            I guess I just dont see evil in what they do, but there are a whole bunch of dissaffected folks out there that do...And thats just plain wrong
            This is a crucial economic principle that so many people here seem to be oblivious to. It's not a matter of pricing a product or service 'fairly', it's a matter of adjusting price to where the supply and demand are in equilibrium. It's basic Economics 101 - you price your product at a level where supply and demand are in equilibrium, and this is the point where you maximize your profit.

            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
              Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

              It's basic Economics 101 - you price your product at a level where supply and demand are in equilibrium, and this is the point where you maximize your profit.
              The Internet Marketing niche is not a typical market.

              It's a cabal dominated by a select few at the top who
              dictate what products are sold, in what order and at
              what price.

              They over-manipulate the perceived supply for their own
              self-interest rather than in the best interests of those
              who should be the focus of every business - the paying
              customers.


              They also use - and abuse - psychological principles
              of influence (a la Robert Cialdini) to whip the market
              up into a buying frenzy to buy products in artificially
              short time periods to extract often excessively high
              prices.

              Fake scarcity and manufactured social proof are just
              two examples.

              Once the latest magic bullet launch offer has ended,
              the next syndicate member will stand in line to milk the
              lists of people who will let their subscribers be exposed
              to such charades.

              And the cycle continues.

              And you know the fake-scarcity, high-urgency launch
              product is most likely going to be re-released again in
              the future right? Who knows, they may even give it to
              you for free - if you buy their buddies' launch product
              of course.

              There's a reason most top-tier launch products cost
              $2k+ a time. And it's got little to do with the actual
              value received by the paying customer.

              The $1k+ affiliate commissions provide the main power
              to drive the big launches.

              How about taking a different path where you focus
              first on meeting the real needs of your customers?


              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
              Signature

              .

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              • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
                Every market has the select few who dominate the market, really.

                Apple and Microsoft "dominate" the computer world. Nike, Adidas
                "dominate" the sports world.

                That doesn't mean anything.

                There's a lot of less-known marketers that make the same amount of money
                from there launches as the guys at the top. They just don't have the name
                recognition, so you don't hear about them.

                So the word dominate is a bit OTT.

                Saying they "over-manipulate" perceived supply again is using a stronger
                word than the real thing that's happening.

                I may be wrong but I'm guessing you mean in the sense of when people say
                "only 100 copies and I will never be selling this again" then 6 months later
                they have another 100 for sale.

                That is wrong and manipulative yea, it's lying to get money in your pocket.

                Listen to the way they say it though and rarely do they say "never to be sold again"

                If they do, it is manipulative 100%. Especially if they know they are going to sell
                again.

                (Again, that may not be the way you mean, if so, ignore that paragraph or too)

                The whole syndicate thing is quite funny really as while what happens is
                true... people promoting each other etc... it's been twisted and turned and
                painted black by propaganda.

                Virtually every single launch is part of smaller "syndicates"... 3-5 people who don't
                launch at the same time because they wont be able to promote the others. Doesn't
                make them corrupted... yet because they are aren't at the top, it's ok.




                Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

                The Internet Marketing niche is not a typical market.

                It's a cabal dominated by a select few at the top who
                dictate what products are sold, in what order and at
                what price.

                They over-manipulate the perceived supply for their own
                self-interest rather than in the best interests of those
                who should be the focus of every business - the paying
                customers.


                They also use - and abuse - psychological principles
                of influence (a la Robert Cialdini) to whip the market
                up into a buying frenzy to buy products in artificially
                short time periods to extract often excessively high
                prices.

                Fake scarcity and manufactured social proof are just
                two examples.

                Once the latest magic bullet launch offer has ended,
                the next syndicate member will stand in line to milk the
                lists of people who will let their subscribers be exposed
                to such charades.

                And the cycle continues.

                And you know the fake-scarcity, high-urgency launch
                product is most likely going to be re-released again in
                the future right? Who knows, they may even give it to
                you for free - if you buy their buddies' launch product
                of course.

                There's a reason most top-tier launch products cost
                $2k+ a time. And it's got little to do with the actual
                value received by the paying customer.

                The $1k+ affiliate commissions provide the main power
                to drive the big launches.

                How about taking a different path where you focus
                first on meeting the real needs of your customers?


                Dedicated to mutual success,

                Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            You yourself on your copywriting maniac page say
            You will NEVER get rich selling a $47 e-book...As you build your customer base and your relationship with them, via email, offer them a $497 product and it may culminate in a $2497 or more premier package.
            The difference with them is instead of selling a $47 ebook they usually give that away in the pre launch.
            Thanks for reading my site, Robert. Let's look at my way versus your way. I'm even going to slant the numbers in your favor to help, even though experience tells me it will be lower:

            Assumptions:
            1,000,000 list size (syndicate)
            5% typical IM warm list conversion (actually, this is low for the type of guys we're talking about)

            My way
            $47 entry level product
            5% conversion
            50,000 sales at $47 = $2,350,000 gross

            $497 upsell product
            5% conversion on buyers of entry product, 0.1% on remainder of list
            50,000 * 5% = 2,500 * $497 = $1,242,000
            1,000,000 * 0.1% = 1,000 * $497 = $497,000
            Total = $1,739,000

            $2,497 premier product
            3% conversion on buyers of upsell product (2,500), 0.01% on remainder on remainder of list
            2,500 * 5% = 125 * $2,497 = $312,125
            1,000,000 * 0.01% = 100 * $2,497 = $249,700
            Total = $561,825

            **Now you have a list of over 51,000 BUYERS

            Grand total
            $4,650,000

            Your way

            Free buzz doc, pre-launch hype and videos


            $2,497 premier product
            0.1% conversion on buyers of premier product (And I'm being tremendously generous with this conversion rate. Ridiculously so)
            1,000,000 * 0.1% = 10,000 * $2,497 = $2,497,000
            Total = $2,497,000

            **Now you have a list of 10,000 BUYERS

            Grand total
            $2,497,000


            So, which would you pick? I'd pick $2 million more and 41,000 more buyers.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
              Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

              Thanks for reading my site, Robert. Let's look at my way versus your way. I'm even going to slant the numbers in your favor to help, even though experience tells me it will be lower:

              Assumptions:
              1,000,000 list size (syndicate)
              5% typical IM warm list conversion (actually, this is low for the type of guys we're talking about)

              My way
              $47 entry level product
              5% conversion
              50,000 sales at $47 = $2,350,000 gross

              $497 upsell product
              5% conversion on buyers of entry product, 0.1% on remainder of list
              50,000 * 5% = 2,500 * $497 = $1,242,000
              1,000,000 * 0.1% = 1,000 * $497 = $497,000
              Total = $1,739,000

              $2,497 premier product
              3% conversion on buyers of upsell product (2,500), 0.01% on remainder on remainder of list
              2,500 * 5% = 125 * $2,497 = $312,125
              1,000,000 * 0.01% = 100 * $2,497 = $249,700
              Total = $561,825

              **Now you have a list of over 51,000 BUYERS

              Grand total
              $4,650,000

              Your way

              Free buzz doc, pre-launch hype and videos


              $2,497 premier product
              0.1% conversion on buyers of premier product (And I'm being tremendously generous with this conversion rate. Ridiculously so)
              1,000,000 * 0.1% = 10,000 * $2,497 = $2,497,000
              Total = $2,497,000

              **Now you have a list of 10,000 BUYERS

              Grand total
              $2,497,000


              So, which would you pick? I'd pick $2 million more and 41,000 more buyers.

              I have no dog in this fight, but for your numbers to be real, you have to look at open rate and click thru rate.

              So, your numbers are probably close if they have a list of 4million people. On a list of 1 million, they will be lucky to get 250k opens. Then 125k clickthrus. The 5% conversion rate would certainly be based off of the number of people who at least opened the email or clicked thru right?

              Otherwise, if the 5% is based off the total list size, then you are talking about roughly a 40% conversion off of people who actually SEE the offer. There is no way that is right.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    I'm trying to rationally discuss the subject. I'm not making it any more personal than I have to and I'm sure Paul would agree.

    By the way, before you posted this, I posted a remark about coffee to stay awake, a link to an excellent ebook template and offered a bunch of word suggestions for someone that asked down in the copywriting forum. How are those troll posts?
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Saturation, economy...
    Signature

    15 Minute Forex Bar Trading System Free at
    http://www.fxscalpingmethod.com

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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    thanks for the laugh:

    Hoodia, **** berry, Bernard Madoff all had their day too.
    Signature

    15 Minute Forex Bar Trading System Free at
    http://www.fxscalpingmethod.com

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bob,

      I doubt they'd change much. Look at hard cover books. The really good ones in a field aren't that much more expensive than the dross. When you remove the price barrier, people tend to focus more on what they want right at the moment.

      Overall, I think a general drop in pricing of the higher end stuff would have a real impact, but it would be more on the quality people expected, rather than pushing everything down in price. "How to" stuff would still sell, even if it's very narrowly focused, but it would have to deliver the goods. People would have to be able to read it and actually do the thing they wanted to learn.

      An opinion on how the overall market would respond that's based on the WSO section isn't sound analysis. The factors that drive that market are not shared with the general market for these kinds of products.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      As the Original Poster of this thread...WOW!

      Let me add a few things.

      I have no idea of the quality of the product that this thread was started about. I even assume it is a good product.

      I always had my own feelings that the high ticket product launch (especially in the "how to make money online) would decline due to a number of factors.

      The email that inspired me to start this thread - that I talked about in the original post - had a headline of "Well that didn't work" - which is pretty self explanatory

      So when you say things like, "it is early yet", and "that's how all launches go" with a huge discrepency between 1 and 10 in the affiliate rankings, I was not going on my own hunch or assumptions, but what was stated in an email from someone who participates as a super affiliate for these launches.

      I found it very interesting and refreshing to hear someone on the inside give hard sales numbers and actually admit that the launch was not going well.

      Note: That doesn't mean I was wishing anything bad for the people launching the product or hoping for failure. I don't know them and that would be a pretty crappy thing to wish on someone.

      The email admitted other things as well.

      In my experience, this is never done. Everything is always great, business is always the best it has ever been, etc. To hear someone mention the disappointment of this launch and another recent high ticket launch was fascinating and I wanted to comment on it.

      Personally, I do think it is worth testing a significantly lower price point. Especially without things like a live event, etc.

      If a lower price point would lead to more sales, if high ticket launches continually decline, the very high ticket launches will slowly fade out.

      The market will fix itself. It always does.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      First of all, I have to wonder what people are thinking. If there was such a software, and it could make you "$18,436.96" in your first 30 days, do you think someone would be selling it for $37?
      Whenever someone asks this question it shows a scarcity mindset, imo. Granted, I would be turned off at the "18k in 30 days" headline.

      It isn't a bad thing to add additional revenue streams to your business. You should try it some time.

      Selling something that works to others isn't a bad thing. It doesn't mean that it won't continue to work for the person selling it.
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      • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
        Banned
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

          A "scarcity mindset". That's a good one. Look at any headline of any major CB product launch. That headline is mild compared to most. Any software that was capable of actually producing $20,000 per month in revenue is not going tobe sold for $47. More than likely, anybody who actually had a software like that would NEVER even tell anyone about it, let alone sell it to the world so everyone could catch on to the method and make it extinct sooner or later.

          No, they would quietly funnel $20,000 per month into their bank account for as long as possible and keep it quiet and try to stay under the radar. At least, that's what I would do anyway.They MIGHT tell a few trusted friends. It's like finding the Holy Grail. you aren't going to broadcast it to the world that you have one of the most valuable and sought after items on the planet, are you?

          I sy this after having used many of these "two click millionaire" products. They mostly suck, or they may aid you in an aspect of SEO or article submission or something, but they are NOT directly responsible for making you the money. In the end, what makes ou $20,000 per month is your hard work and a good list, or if you happen to be the one selling the junk software.

          That is simply your opinion. I don't see why selling a 20k a month system will stop them to continue making 20k a month using that system.

          Let's see...

          They continue making 20k a month and sell their system to make even more.

          Sounds like good business to me.

          I wouldn't sell my 20k a month system if it was going to damage my business.

          I don't think selling PLF has hurt Jeff's business. I suspect he is doing product launches in other markets.

          Yeah, I still call it a scarcity mindset.
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          • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

              It's not an opinion. It's common sense. Look at what happened to article marketing. Everyone started doing it and now it's not that effective. We'll just agree to disagree on this one.
              No, thats not true.

              Most people doing article marketing think it's all about backlinks and hoping your "hungry crowd" stumble across your Ezine article, go to your site and buy stuff.

              Some of us use syndication. Thanks to the backlink brigade, we still make good money and it's very much unsaturated as most folk have no idea how to do it or how much they're actually leaving on the table....and let me tell you, it's huge.

              Article marketing is ineffective only for the vast majority of people that don't know how to do it properly.
              Signature

              Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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              • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
                Richard,

                Ok, I'm a little confused about what you mean.

                Could you please explain how you do article marketing so effectively?

                I thought the point of article marketing was to place your articles with an enticing offer (directing your reader to a squeeze page or sales page) in your resource box in high-traffic directories like EZA.

                If you place one article in three different directories, you've syndicated your content.

                So what do you mean about "syndication" and backlinks regarding article marketing and making it more effective?

                Sorry, your post confused the heck out of me as I thought about article marketing!

                Michelle



                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                No, thats not true.

                Most people doing article marketing think it's all about backlinks and hoping your "hungry crowd" stumble across your Ezine article, go to your site and buy stuff.

                Some of us use syndication. Thanks to the backlink brigade, we still make good money and it's very much unsaturated as most folk have no idea how to do it or how much they're actually leaving on the table....and let me tell you, it's huge.

                Article marketing is ineffective only for the vast majority of people that don't know how to do it properly.
                Signature
                "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post

                  Richard,

                  Ok, I'm a little confused about what you mean.

                  Could you please explain how you do article marketing so effectively?

                  I thought the point of article marketing was to place your articles with an enticing offer (directing your reader to a squeeze page or sales page) in your resource box in high-traffic directories like EZA.

                  If you place one article in three different directories, you've syndicated your content.

                  So what do you mean about "syndication" and backlinks regarding article marketing and making it more effective?

                  Sorry, your post confused the heck out of me as I thought about article marketing!

                  Michelle
                  Michelle, I'm not answering for Richard, but we do some similar things so I'm offering my take...

                  Placing your articles in "high-traffic directories like EZA" is the starting point. After your article has been posted for awhile, run a search on a unique bit of text, one not likely to appear elsewhere. See if your article is posted on other sites, another level of syndication.

                  Contact the owners of those sites, and ask if they would like to receive fresh content from you directly, rather than having to wade through article directories or search results. A fair portion will say yes if you do it right.

                  Next time you post an article that would fit that site, email it to the owner. I like to send a plain text version and one with basic html tags.

                  You can also spend time looking for sites and blogs that cover your niche and accept articles or guest posts. You can build both traffic and high quality links from sites that never look in directories.

                  Does that help?
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
              Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

              It's not an opinion. It's common sense. Look at what happened to article marketing. Everyone started doing it and now it's not that effective. We'll just agree to disagree on this one.


              Honestly dude, stop, before you embarrass yourself any further. First, constant content was too expensive because you don't think talented writers deserve more than $15 for a premium article, now your saying article marketing is almost ineffective(LMAO)

              Good gracious......

              Chris
              Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
          I think that most people here have been taken by BS, so most can appreciate your sentiments, but your dead wrong.

          First of all the most important point you made in the entire post as "At least, that's what I would do anyway".

          As the love of my daughter's life, Pauly D from the Jersey Shore (I know, sad life I live..but that's another story) "You do you and I'll do me". Just because that's what you would do doesn't mean jack smack for the next guy. It's a very dangerous assumption to make that your preferences and bias are shared by your market, esp if you want to sell anything.

          And your assumption on the price point is not valid either. What's to say that by selling it at $47 they won't make more vs the $2000 price point. I once had a course on options trading that was being sold for $397 and then a continuity options trading newsletter that came with it for $97 a month. I decided to test out giving away the course, and then putting people into the continuity offer.

          At $397/$97 each new lead I had was worth just over $14. People would buy the course and stay with the continuity for about 2 1/2 months, conversion of the leads was just over 2%.

          When I dropped the price and made the course free to teach people how to use the newsletter my average value per lead jumped to nearly $40. While the value of each of my buyers did go down, I just pulled up my data card and it was $644 per buyer and it's now $388 per buyer, but my value per lead went through the roof..and guess what, its much easier to generate leads. At $397/$97 the business struggled to do six figures per year, it now does that per month (sales, not profits btw).

          So, just because YOU think that selling something at $2000 will make more money doesn't mean that in the real world with real people pulling real credit cards out of their wallets it will work out that way.

          Result


          Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

          Any software that was capable of actually producing $20,000 per month in revenue is not going tobe sold for $47.

          No, they would quietly funnel $20,000 per month into their bank account for as long as possible and keep it quiet and try to stay under the radar. At least, that's what I would do anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author GoldenEye
        Its nice to be reminded of the fact that we can do launches in many different categories OTHER than make money online....... with that said, is it really true that "make money online" is that much more profitable than any other given market? I have heard this sentiment time and again in other threads and have always wondered how effective launches can be in other markets compared to a market that relies heavily on one of the most obvious and strong human instincts...making money.
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
    Awesome post Roaddog and well said.
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  • Profile picture of the author mariomvr
    I believe that the only reason why some big ticket launches are not working is just that people are selling things that people don't want!

    It is the same information sold over and over and over again. Some of that info you can find it for free.

    Now people that are actually making launches with new material are doing fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      Does anyone know how Trey's launch is doing?


      Originally Posted by mariomvr View Post

      I believe that the only reason why some big ticket launches are not working is just that people are selling things that people don't want!

      It is the same information sold over and over and over again. Some of that info you can find it for free.

      Now people that are actually making launches with new material are doing fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkMOZ
    There's no doubt that there is still money to be made by launching products. You only have to take a look at the different niches out there.

    Nowadays I've noticed that due to the fact that there are so many products who speak about certain issues in general, people tend to be creating more specific products to address specific issues.

    But if you manage to do a general launch on your own, I think that it is still achievable.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      It's a plain fact, the only people with a perfect batting average are the ones who never step up to the plate.

      I don't have the hard data to say with authority whether any product launch 'bombed' or not, but with the number of launches still growing, an occasional strikeout is to be expected.

      It doesn't mean the model is dead, or even wheezing a bit. It just means that the particular launch did not do well. Stuff happens.

      In the MMO arena, we may be seeing some fatigue. Like the aquifers here, you can't draw from them forever unless there's enough rain to replenish them. We may simply be entering one of those 'replenishment' periods.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        It's a plain fact, the only people with a perfect batting average are the ones who never step up to the plate.
        Technically, they have no average. You can't divide by zero.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          Technically, they have no average. You can't divide by zero.
          Technically, you are correct - smartass...
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  • Profile picture of the author LukeH
    Check out your sales page conversion. Or may be the list was very unresponsive.

    My list before was unresponsive as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
    A few people on here have mentioned that JW is going to be putting PLF out again in a few weeks. Does anyone know the dates?
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    • Profile picture of the author KellyFelix
      Just got pointed to this thread. I guess the OP was posting in regards to an email I sent out to my BTF list? So figured I'd come in here and add a bit of additional info.

      I just talked to Trey and he did $1.2M on the launch. Not sure if that's the collected amount or not. And he still has to pay out some commissions, but in any event, not a bad week by most standards right?

      I sent 1400 optins. Made 2 sales (but one got credited to somebody else and later refunded altogether). I heard from a friend that 2 sales made the #5 affiliate at the time. I was shocked. I've now been told that was an error. 9 sales were actually required to be #5 at that time. Keep in mind this was still on day 1.

      Another guy I know sent like 3,000 opt ins and made 1 sale. The problem is, it turns into a bonus war. And guys like Kern, Amish, Ed Dale and Eben ended up crushing it b/c they gave like $10k in bonuses.

      Their lists are also accustomed to $2k products.

      Mine isn't. Mine is used to Clickbank prices. 100+ people emailed saying they wanted my bonus but didn't have $2700. So I switched the offer to give my bonus to anybody who bought Google Sniper ($47) and Coffee Shop Millionaire ($37) from George Brown and Anthony Trister. Result = 500 sales of Sniper so far, #2 affiliate. (Coffee hasn't launched yet)

      So are launches dead? No way. George did $360k on day 1 (collected) with servers being down for 3 hours.

      It's obviously all about the bonuses, and about what type of buyers you have on your list. It's not really rocket science.

      I gave Treys launch a shot because to me it looked like the most interesting launch in quite a while. My list didnt want it. Other lists did. No big deal.

      I just felt kinda bad about it cuz I wanted to rock it for him. But it seems like he did okay without me?
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  • Profile picture of the author phpnetpro
    This is an interesting thread.

    I think most people have stopped buying those particular products because of a few problems.

    Look at your big Clickbank launches. These people have some kind of obsession with trying to trap people on their site, offering different prices of their product, tricks about quantity limits, etc. They also like making products lately that are all about the "magic-button" that lets you buy their software, click a button and start making crazy money. People have just realized after buying a ton of these products that they don't work.

    I truly think it's time for the internet to take a shift back to quality instead of quantity and false dreams. I have certainly been waiting for that a long time and personally have always tried to push for this sort of thing to happen. Auto content is taking a huge hit on Google. Auto blogs, Auto Wordpress affiliate plugins, etc are taking a hit, but the "gurus" are still trying to push products like that. IMO at least

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
      Originally Posted by phpnetpro View Post

      Look at your big Clickbank launches. These people have some kind of obsession with trying to trap people on their site, offering different prices of their product, tricks about quantity limits, etc. They also like making products lately that are all about the "magic-button" that lets you buy their software, click a button and start making crazy money. People have just realized after buying a ton of these products that they don't work.
      Well, I can tell you this thread is about Trey Smith's launch and I didn't buy this product (too pricey IMO).

      But - I do have access to 'Million Dollar Niches' and thought it was a great product. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss everyone who is doing better than average as a fraudulent "guru".

      There weren't any annoying pop-ups, pop-unders for this product and I have never gotten spammed by being on his list. Actually, I actively sought out his list to opt-in.

      I paid $.99 (oooh) to get an ecourse on how to build an iPhone app and it was (once again) awesome content.

      This is somebody who knows to repeatedly create information products, launch them, get affiliates and make serious money.

      I'm glad everybody is trashing him 'cuz it means fewer of you will be following his advice ;-)

      -Vikram
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesburchill
    Firstly, let me just say I read this whole darned thread in one sitting ... I want an hour of my life back!

    Here's my 2 cents:

    --- Making Money in the Software Game ---

    Software creation and marketing is hard. I've been building and selling SW for over 20 years in both the private and corporate sector. I started with games in the 80's and moved to business systems in the early 90's. Millions made and sold for my clients. I've designed, built and sold software to businesses all around the world, to governments, even to the US and UK military (they have some strict rules) and projects never turn out as expected.

    It's NEVER as easy as it seems. The old maxim 'on time, on budget on spec ... pick 2' comes to mind. Sure there's money to be made in it, I did for decades. The allure of outsourcing was always the spectre in the shadows, when I was working for Oracle our pitch was that their systems technology would compress the timelines and reduce costs, the same when Microsofts's Visual Basic hit the market - "so easy you can do drag and drop" coding .. uhuh ;-)

    Look, I'm enjoying watching another "text book" launch with Trey Smith's program and I expect it will do well overall. But thinking you can dive into the SW development and sales business - specially the smartphone app dev business, is not going to be that easy. Remember, Trey does say true success is not in the technology but in the marketing - I agree with that absolutely. Building a better mousetrap will not have them beating a path to your door. Sorry folks it simply doesn't work that way.

    --- Let's talk about high prices ---

    Value is an emotion, price is a number. When people are feeling positive and expect a bright future, the money they will pay is higher than when they are concerned about the future or just bummed-out by the economics. It's classic confidence signals if you ask me.

    I read somewhere that when a market's emotional state is swinging down (bearish?) you will find people moving toward the 'sure things' like Church, the state and even powerful prophets that promise a brighter future and offer comfort.

    When the market is optimistic (bullish?) you will find people taking greater risks, exploring and colouring outside the lines of everyday tasks, and generally will have a higher tolerance for greater risk.

    --- Are launches dead? ---

    Really, do I need get into this. Of course they're not dead. Far to many examples in this thread alone to suggest otherwise.

    And I got a very interesting email last night from Mike Long (Kelly Felix business partner) about how 'badly' they were doing and how 'launches were struggling' and then ... what do you know, they pivot in the copy and announce another launch and start promoting that!

    And as I wrap up this little diatribe, a thought occurred to me ... no, it couldn't be ... seeding a forum with a contrarian concept to get a conversation going to pre-sell a launch!!! Say it isn't so.

    LOL, you gotta love this industry

    PS. I hear they're selling mining rights on the moon again...
    Signature
    James Burchill ~ Bestselling Author & Coursepreneur
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  • Profile picture of the author ibconsultants
    REMEMBER FRANK KERN'S " STATE OF THE INTERNET ADDRESS" ?

    Frank Kern Jan 20
    BEGIN RANT:

    I don't know about you, but I've
    gotten pretty burned out with all
    the product launches going on.

    ...Which is funny coming from ME
    since I'm one of the guys who really
    popularized product launches!

    I know, I know ...irony.

    But like I said in the State Of The
    Internet Address, product launches
    are a BONUS to your business
    ...they are NOT a business model.

    (I actually stole that quote from
    Rich Schefren. Don't tell him.)

    Anyway - here's the deal.

    Launches are awesome, but if you
    do them every week ...you'll
    burn out the market.

    They won't be cool any more.

    You'll be like the car dealer that has
    a "Super Sale" every weekend.

    (There was a car dealer in my town when I
    was growing up and he had a Super Sale
    every week.

    What was hilarious is he'd be on TV
    every day and he had a lisp ...so he'd
    always be talking about his final
    "Thuper Thale". But I digress...)

    Anyway - I'm ranting right now because
    it's important to YOU that YOU build
    a funnel of fresh leads and prospects
    that come into your sales process every
    day ...predictably.

    And then YOU build a conversion process
    that turns them into customers ...predictably.

    THEN do a launch or two a year and you'll
    clean up.

    But if you do the ol' "Launch Of The Month"
    routine, you'll be hosed.

    So ...what to do now?

    Well, I'm a big fan of finding out who's
    getting the results I want ...and then just
    doing what they do.

    And arguably the BEST guy in the world
    at generating a predictable and steady
    flow of new leads and customers is
    Eben Pagan.

    When I built my dog training business
    up to a million bucks a year, I modeled
    his systems ...badly.

    Worked anyway.

    I think the term for that is taking "Imperfect
    Action".

    Give it a whirl.

    BEGIN SUPER IRONY:

    Here's something that's really ironic
    about this email.

    It's to tell you about...

    Another ...

    Damned ...

    Launch.

    I know! WTF??

    But hear me out. It's actually about
    the free launch content and not about
    the product being sold (since I don't
    really know what is actually for sale
    ...whenever the mysterious "thing"
    even goes on sale.)

    Look, I didn't even want to send this to
    you because you're probably just as burned
    out as I am, you know?

    But then I saw the pre-launch material and it
    was really impressive. (I couldn't resist.
    I'm a marketing junkie like everybody
    else. I freakin' HAD to click.)

    And I think if you watch this video and get
    this report, you'll thank me for enduring
    "launchitis" long enough to screen it, verify
    that it's good, and tell you about it.

    It's by Eben Pagan and it's worth looking at:
    Trust Me, This Is Good.

    Hope you like it,

    Frank

    P.S. Fair warning: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT
    THE HELL EBEN IS ACTUALLY SELLING.

    I'd assume it's a course on Self Made Wealth
    (judging by the title of the video) ...but
    I haven't talked to him about it or anything.

    Been busy working on other stuff.

    For all I know he could be selling cotton
    candy machines.

    And frankly, I don't give a damn if you
    buy it or not ...whenever it actually
    goes on sale.

    In the miraculous event that you click that
    link above ...and my affiliate cookie is still
    in your system by the time his course
    goes on sale ...and you actually buy
    the course (whatever it may be) ...Eben
    will send me some money.

    I have no idea how much because I don't
    know (or care at this point) what the product
    is or how much it costs.

    But I hope he sends me 90 billion dollars.

    If he does, I promise to send you a life sized
    statue of Pamela Anderson made out of solid
    gold.
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  • Profile picture of the author vok
    There's a very small group of people who are on their lists and can afford to buy these products. Once those people have brought they are extremely unlikely to buy any of the other products that they are selling or promoting.

    I personally think there will come a time when people are no longer interested in these kind of products because of the large price tags, they're just not competitive with the rest of the market any more. They know that too and I bet it scares them.
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesburchill
    This thread is awesome. I love how so many topics have found their way into the mix. Now if we can work an "Is Bigfoot Real?" discussion into the thread, and a "Did we really land on the moon?" I think my world will be complete
    Signature
    James Burchill ~ Bestselling Author & Coursepreneur
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    • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
      Originally Posted by jamesburchill View Post

      This thread is awesome. I love how so many topics have found their way into the mix. Now if we can work an "Is Bigfoot Real?" discussion into the thread, and a "Did we really land on the moon?" I think my world will be complete
      This thread is a typical "time-wasting, no value added" kind of thread.

      Keely Felix HIMSELF jumped on to say exactly what happened but will people listen?

      We all know it's a huge no. This controversy will keep going and people will keep chipping in their "advice" and "feelings".

      Mods please, just lock this thread as it is just getting ridiculous in here and also it's wasting people's time. I just spent like 30 minutes reading through the whole thing ( i should have known better).

      Also, the starter of the thread is laughing hard right now as he got exactly heat he wanted. "ATTENTION"

      EDIT: By the way, who wants my next WSO: "How to get massive attention on Warrior Forum"
      Signature

      “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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      • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
        Originally Posted by KellyFelix View Post

        Just got pointed to this thread. I guess the OP was posting in regards to an email I sent out to my BTF list? So figured I'd come in here and add a bit of additional info.

        ...Another guy I know sent like 3,000 opt ins and made 1 sale. The problem is, it turns into a bonus war. And guys like Kern, Amish, Ed Dale and Eben ended up crushing it b/c they gave like $10k in bonuses.

        Their lists are also accustomed to $2k products.

        Mine isn't. Mine is used to Clickbank prices. 100+ people emailed saying they wanted my bonus but didn't have $2700. So I switched the offer to give my bonus to anybody who bought Google Sniper ($47) and Coffee Shop Millionaire ($37) from George Brown and Anthony Trister. Result = 500 sales of Sniper so far, #2 affiliate. (Coffee hasn't launched yet)

        So are launches dead? No way. George did $360k on day 1 (collected) with servers being down for 3 hours.

        It's obviously all about the bonuses, and about what type of buyers you have on your list. It's not really rocket science.
        And there is a great explanation.

        BTW, I never thought Product Launches were dead. I do think High Ticket Launches haven't done as well as planned lately and may be declining.

        The Headline in my sig is done tongue in cheek to all those other headlines of "The Death of XXXX" which is simply done to call attention to that "dramatic" headline.


        Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post


        Mods please, just lock this thread as it is just getting ridiculous in here and also it's wasting people's time. I just spent like 30 minutes reading through the whole thing ( i should have known better).
        Why would they want to close a thread that people are taking the time to read through and has a huge number of views, replies and is voted 5 stars?

        Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

        Also, the starter of the thread is laughing hard right now as he got exactly heat he wanted. "ATTENTION"

        EDIT: By the way, who wants my next WSO: "How to get massive attention on Warrior Forum"
        If I start a thread on a forum (which is open to the public), why would I not want it to get as much attention as possible?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Why would they want to close a thread that people are taking the time to read through and has a huge number of views, replies and is voted 5 stars?
    Because it adds no fricking value to the forum and it a useless piece of crap thread. Who cares if some "anti-guru" marketer gave this thread a 5 star rating.

    And guess what your statement means?

    Why would they want to close a thread that people are taking the time to read through and has a huge number of views, replies
    This means that people are spending TIME on this thread. People are spending their "valuable" and most scarce resource on this "useless" thread while they could be using this time to "learn" how IM truly works and how to "truly" build a business.

    I could have done tons of work in all the time I wasted on this thread.

    If I start a thread on a forum (which is open to the public), why would I not want it to get as much attention as possible?
    You are not the first one who has done it. People do this all the time to get more exposure to their signature files and hey you just admitted it so props to you.
    Signature

    “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Because it adds no fricking value to the forum and it a useless piece of crap thread. Who cares if some "anti-guru" marketer gave this thread a 5 star rating.

      And guess what your statement means?



      This means that people are spending TIME on this thread. People are spending their "valuable" and most scarce resource on this "useless" thread while they could be using this time to "learn" how IM truly works and how to "truly" build a business.

      I could have done tons of work in all the time I wasted on this thread.



      You are not the first one who has done it. People do this all the time to get more exposure to their signature files and hey you just admitted it so props to you.
      You're blaming others for wasting your time? haha

      How about you get the FCC to close down all the television shows while you are at it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        You're blaming others for wasting your time? haha

        How about you get the FCC to close down all the television shows while you are at it.
        FACEPALM

        arrrghhh, ok let me try to "explain" something.

        I am not blaming anyone for wasting my time. All I am saying is that these type of threads add absolutely no value to the forum and do nothing to help anyone.

        They get alot of attention, spark a lot of controversy and at the same time waste alot of people's time (including the mods).

        Now you should know (as you have been here longer than me) that I am not the first person preaching the idea of "stop making useless threads" on the forum.

        Many others including Paul Myers have said that these time-wasting threads add no value and shouldn't be posted.

        Now about getting FCC to close tv channels, well nah fake shows like Operation Repo keep me going through the day
        Signature

        “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

          FACEPALM

          arrrghhh, ok let me try to "explain" something.

          I am not blaming anyone for wasting my time. All I am saying is that these type of threads add absolutely no value to the forum and do nothing to help anyone.

          They get alot of attention, spark a lot of controversy and at the same time waste alot of people's time (including the mods).

          Now you should know (as you have been here longer than me) that I am not the first person preaching the idea of "stop making useless threads" on the forum.

          Many others including Paul Myers have said that these time-wasting threads add no value and shouldn't be posted.

          Now about getting FCC to close tv channels, well nah fake shows like Operation Repo keep me going through the day
          I found value in this thread. I think a lot of new people will find value also just from the idea that a lot of money can be made without selling 2k courses.

          I don't remember seeing Paul state this thread has no value. Please point out the post.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

    If you have not heard, two of the last high profile, high ticket product launches have had less than stellar results.

    Results like very high profile names selling only 2 copies with promotions to a 6 figure list.

    There are definite reasons why this is happening.
    The last weeks i was busy scouring the common JV sites for new and upcoming products.

    TO SAY IT IN ONE SENTENCE:

    MOST of it looks and reads like CRAP. Excuse my language. The current trend seems to be to release so called "one-button-cash-machine" systems.

    Each and any looks and reads exactly the same. There is no innovation or anything new coming out, just big names re-hashing and selling crap as the miraculous "click a button become millionaire" solution.
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  • Profile picture of the author PleaseHelpMe
    Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

    If you have not heard, two of the last high profile, high ticket product launches have had less than stellar results.

    Results like very high profile names selling only 2 copies with promotions to a 6 figure list.

    There are definite reasons why this is happening.
    Could it be that people have been nauseated by the "hype" that often goes into almost all launches. Then get ready for the quadruple upsell. A lot of what is out there is simply rehashed product. Perhaps people are just plan fed up. Most of these guys are no longer trusted by people anymore. Especially when they do the scarcity trick or something like that, when it is not really what they mean.

    They ought to mean what they say and say what they mean!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Okay so I don't wanna get pulled into this but I don't know why, I just feel like defending myself so here it is because I think you made alot of "false assumptions". So here goes:


    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ou-paypal.html

    1. It is not a "paypal bashing" thread. If you read the thing you will be able to see that I actually had a legit problem and i am "LOOKING FOR A SOLUTION". When did asking for an alternative become a crime? You just looked at the headline and jumped on the high horse didn't you?

    2. This thread is from July of 2010. So just assume for a second that this thread was indeed on the wrong, did you really have to pull out something from 7 MONTHS AGO?

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ot-stupid.html

    1. Okay I think you are right on this one. It was my mistake and I will take full responsibility for it. I shouldn't have started this thread. I'm sorry.

    I will willingly accept if I do something wrong and this one is no exception.

    2. From 6 months ago. Seriously man, look at the date. Alot of stuff happens in 6 months.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...guru-spam.html

    1. Well I was pissed of at all the "STOP SPAMMING ME YOU STINKING GURUS" threads so I started it stating a possible solution. All I said was, instead of starting out threads saying "gurus suck", just unsubscribe and move on with your life.

    Time waster? I don't know maybe.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...s-so-high.html

    Ummm, it's not a whining thread. I actually make a case for that.

    I also started this thread after seeing all of the "high ticket product launches suck" type posts.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ch-system.html

    Okay I am actually a little disappointed at this:

    I sat down and spent like 30 minutes trying to record a video that will actually help people.

    It's not a "Guru Suck, check my signature" type thread. I am actually providing value. read the comments.

    So yeah, you think I am full of crap?

    No problem. Beat me down and talk **** on me whatever.

    I just learned one lesson today. Stop caring about the goddamn crap and let everyone do whatever they want.

    So enjoy. You think I am an idiot, hey go ahead you are entitled to an opinion but at least take some time to "make sure" your assumptions are right.

    All you did was read the titles of the thread and jumped to a conclusion.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    One thing is for certain, there are two kinds of individuals when it comes to all the launch conversation:

    1. The ones complaining about the launches on internet forums, and
    2. The ones actually doing the launches.

    I have a theory about who is actually making more money across the board.

    Funny thing about action and all.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Mohammad,

      Thanks for the PM. Sorry for the delay in replying, I just woke up.

      You're mistaken about 'false assumptions' and about me not reading your threads. It took me a few minutes to click on your name, right-click on 'find all threads started by Mohammad Afaq' and scan through them. Anyone can do it, including for my threads/posts.

      It was by reading them that I noticed that you have a tendency throughout your threads to lean on the side of gurus against any anti-guru comments, complain that other people's threads are wasting people's/your time and it's how I noticed that the one thread was locked ('Here's a groundbreaking...') and the final comment in it pointed out how you were exacerbating the very problem you were complaining about (wasting people's time).

      It's not a personal thing Mohammad. I don't think you're an idiot - far from it. I just thought you were sticking your neck out a bit too far with some of your comments above and I was hinting that perhaps you should wind it in a bit as you're leaving too much neck exposed.

      Robert (who thanked me for the post) tells me to wind mine in on a weekly basis and I return the favour to him. But both of us are trying to be helpful in our own way with those posts towards the forum/conversation in general - we just have different points of view on things. Same thing here.

      I'm not blind to the fact that by sticking my neck out in this manner, certain people will be watching more closely and will be sure to tell me when it's a good idea for me to wind mine in too.

      That's forum life. We all just love helping each other out in that way. Look at how others are doing the same throughout the thread - for example, how many different people are suggesting that certain viewpoints suggest that those who hold them are not earning as much money?

      Others are grouping all people that do big launches into one big group of behaviour and intention. Some are suggesting that the thread is seeding a launch itself. Others claim that psychological principles are being abused.

      The whole gamut is on display here.

      But you managed to get a big chunk of them into one post, went a bit far with your own assumption-based accusations and started calling for the thread to be locked.

      How would you react if you were in a conversation and someone came along and said that the conversation was a useless piece of crap, that the conversation contained attention seekers, that it was wasting their time (even though no one is forcing them to listen) and that everyone should just shut up?

      I thought that my response to your response was relatively restrained, instructive, constructive and totally in line with your comments. Nothing personal mate. I just think this is one of the more interesting, informative and helpful threads around.

      I hope you also noted that I hadn't contributed previously. I was tempted, but I had just been reading along and learning. Launches aren't really my thing. Being 'helpful' is. :rolleyes:
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Mohammad,

        Thanks for the PM. Sorry for the delay in replying, I just woke up.

        You're mistaken about 'false assumptions' and about me not reading your threads. It took me a few minutes to click on your name, right-click on 'find all threads started by Mohammad Afaq' and scan through them. Anyone can do it, including for my threads/posts.

        It was by reading them that I noticed that you have a tendency throughout your threads to lean on the side of gurus against any anti-guru comments, complain that other people's threads are wasting people's/your time and it's how I noticed that the one thread was locked ('Here's a groundbreaking...') and the final comment in it pointed out how you were exacerbating the very problem you were complaining about (wasting people's time).

        It's not a personal thing Mohammad. I don't think you're an idiot - far from it. I just thought you were sticking your neck out a bit too far with some of your comments above and I was hinting that perhaps you should wind it in a bit as you're leaving too much neck exposed.

        Robert (who thanked me for the post) tells me to wind mine in on a weekly basis and I return the favour to him. But both of us are trying to be helpful in our own way with those posts towards the forum/conversation in general - we just have different points of view on things. Same thing here.

        I'm not blind to the fact that by sticking my neck out in this manner, certain people will be watching more closely and will be sure to tell me when it's a good idea for me to wind mine in too.

        That's forum life. We all just love helping each other out in that way. Look at how others are doing the same throughout the thread - for example, how many different people are suggesting that certain viewpoints suggest that those who hold them are not earning as much money?

        Others are grouping all people that do big launches into one big group of behaviour and intention. Some are suggesting that the thread is seeding a launch itself. Others claim that psychological principles are being abused.

        The whole gamut is on display here.

        But you managed to get a big chunk of them into one post, went a bit far with your own assumption-based accusations and started calling for the thread to be locked.

        How would you react if you were in a conversation and someone came along and said that the conversation was a useless piece of crap, that the conversation contained attention seekers, that it was wasting their time (even though no one is forcing them to listen) and that everyone should just shut up?

        I thought that my response to your response was relatively restrained, instructive, constructive and totally in line with your comments. Nothing personal mate. I just think this is one of the more interesting, informative and helpful threads around.

        I hope you also noted that I hadn't contributed previously. I was tempted, but I had just been reading along and learning. Launches aren't really my thing. Being 'helpful' is. :rolleyes:
        Okay here's a public apology:

        I admit i can be an ass sometimes with my argument without realizing it and maybe you guys are right. I will admit my wrong and i am sorry for taking it too far.

        In the future i will try and be a little careful. Now that doesn't mean i will change the ways i look at things but i will "try" to be a little respectful i guess.

        So, friends???
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Mohammad,

          So, friends???
          Of course! You have a friend request.

          Now that doesn't mean i will change the ways i look at things
          Excellent - stick to your guns. If we all become clones we all lose out because we stop learning. I'm only here because I feel I have more to learn than most.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Mohammad,

            Of course! You have a friend request.

            Excellent - stick to your guns. If we all become clones we all lose out because we stop learning. I'm only here because I feel I have more to learn than most.
            They don't come much better to listen too than Roger.

            As someone that is always very pleased to read his posts and someone I value to listen too very much, I think Mo your public apology was a very decent thing and shows you, as someone that listens - well done Mohammed.

            Roger, I feel we all have a lot more to learn from you, than most.

            That, to me, was a very modest statement you made and shows you excactly as, the great contribution to this life, you are.
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      • Profile picture of the author jbsmith
        In my experience having successful and unsuccessful launches and promotions - in the IM space the effectiveness of a launch largely comes down to 1 concept...

        Believable proof!

        If you have designed your product around a series of testable steps toward achieving and end result and then get interim proof that using the system to get that result...then you will have a winner.

        With some of these "failures" or less than successful launches, they strayed from this principle in to the land of theory...making them far less effective.

        Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author Gavin Abeyratne
    Hmmm... Call me a simpleton, but isn't a product launch just an extended sales pitch?

    Demonstrate your product -> build trust -> show the value -> craft an offer that requires immediate action

    Are we really asking whether sales pitches are dead?

    If we're asking whether people are sick of paying $2k for stuff, well that may have something to do with the economic state in the US at the moment, specifically access to credit.

    Or the offers may have stunk recently.

    The Software System didn't appeal to me, seemed like too much hassle. Maybe I wasn't the only one?


    That being said, we must bear in mind that the ultimate "make money" niche is college, and people are still paying WAY more than $2k for an "info course" that won't pay itself back for years, and involve a buttload of hardwork so me thinks that people are being a bit narrow sighted making market analysis off Good Ol' Trey from Macon.

    Gavin
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
      @Gavin,

      You, sir are a simpleton.

      Originally Posted by daedalus1 View Post

      Hmmm... Call me a simpleton, but isn't a product launch just an extended sales pitch?
      Gavin
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    LOL how true never occured to me to view it that way...$100k+ info products rolled up in lectures...... :-)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That being said, we must bear in mind that the ultimate "make money" niche is college, and people are still paying WAY more than $2k for an "info course" that won't pay itself back for years, and involve a buttload of hardwork so me thinks that people are being a bit narrow sighted making market analysis off Good Ol' Trey from Macon.

    Gavin
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Oh...what about the people who buy them?

    One thing is for certain, there are two kinds of individuals when it comes to all the launch conversation:

    1. The ones complaining about the launches on internet forums, and
    2. The ones actually doing the launches.
    " Where are the customers Yachts?"

    A man goes to see his stock broker. Very plush offices by a Marina.

    "Wow he says look at those beautiful Yachts out there."

    Yes says the broker. There's mine, there's Freds and that BIG ONE there is the owners...nice aren't they"

    Oh....where are the customers yachts then?

    ....................................

    The people making the big money form these launches are clearly the sellers. As it is in all bizz..
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      Oh...what about the people who buy them?

      " Where are the customers Yachts?"

      A man goes to see his stock broker. Very plush offices by a Marina.

      "Wow he says look at those beautiful Yachts out there."

      Yes says the broker. There's mine, there's Freds and that BIG ONE there is the owners...nice aren't they"

      Oh....where are the customers yachts then?

      ....................................

      The people making the big money form these launches are clearly the sellers. As it is in all bizz..
      This would seem to be an appropriate response taken from another thread

      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Give someone a chunk of wood and a carving knife and what do you get?

      > A small percentage will create a work of art.

      > A somewhat larger percentage will create a pile of shavings.

      > A large percentage will hand you back the wood and the knife, having done nothing with it and claiming that woodcarving is impossible or evil.

      > A small percentage will produce a trip to the emergency room, having tried to use the carving knife as a hammer...
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      • Profile picture of the author da3gan
        So I haven't read every post in this thread, but I have read most, and this is the truth as I see it ... The process of a product launch can't "die", it's a process and it's the variables that feed into that system that determine its end result.

        That being said, product launches in the IM niche are NOT fairing as well as they have because of things like poor quality products and a more competitive marketplace for the attention of the potential buyer, but what's effecting how well product launches in the IM niche are doing and will do in the future more than anything else is economics.

        In prior years there was always "new blood" coming into the marketplace from sources like Adwords and today that's not happening.

        List aren't growing with fresh prospects at the rate that they used to - this combined with increasingly aggressive marketing practices from marketers trying replace lost income from the inability to generate the same level and quality of fresh leads and front end sales they once had by introducing far more "stuff" into the marketplace is slowly diminishing returns for the efforts invested into launches and other promotional processes.

        So, until there is a "answer" to where to get high quality traffic now that is on the level of Adwords, in today's marketplace there's no room for real growth in the IM space. The simple truth is, if a market's ability to reach new potential customers is shrinking "at large" then so is the profit potential within it. (Anheuser-Busch wouldn't sell as many beers if they couldn't stock our grocery store shelves, right - same thing in the IM niche right now)

        And that's what's happening in the IM space, our overall ability to reach our target "new" prospects has decreased and so to have the profits.

        Daegan
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  • Profile picture of the author richgrad
    I was one of the top 15 affiliates for Brendon Burchard's Experts Academy Launch... and I got a good number of sales from there...

    Eben's recent launch was a disappointment though... I didn't even get a single sale... If anybody knows what's going on... do share with all of us... Maybe Eben might like to share why this launch didn't quite cut it... It makes for a good case study as well (We all learn from our failures)
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  • Profile picture of the author James_Harkin
    There are some great launches in other niche markets. For example, Kevin Gianni The Renegade Health Show - Fun and Educational TV on Raw Foods, Vegan Diets, Healthy Living and Recipes just did a product launch called The Great Health Debate Great Health Debate and how he launched it, he gave away audio lectures from 16 of the top health 'gurus'. Gave it away for the price of an email address! The product was to be able to download those audio lectures and get the transcripts in pdf format for $49.95 ($39.95 if you ordered it prior to a certain date) plus 3 great bonuses (one of which I wanted).

    Basically by having the lectures back to back every day at the same time, sometimes people may miss out on one of them, so the only way they could listen to the speaker would be to buy the package.

    Furthermore, because of the nature of the niche, the quality of Kevin Gianni's site and the collection of the email address for regular newsletters he will generate revenue from his other products and online shop.

    A great idea, marketed well through other health 'guru' websites (via affiliate links) where thousands of people would be interested in the content as well as products. So it doesn't have to be a high ticket item, it also doesn't have to have masses of one time offers and upsells and downsells to do well.

    If marketers looked for long term development of their customer list, instead of having them buy this $2k item all at once that ends up being a disappointment, they would benefit from repeat custom worth a lot more than $2k. People are unhappy about all these hyped $37 but no, its $27, but no its $17 ... oh and it won't work unless you buy this upgrade $67, and this further upgrade $397, oh can't afford that, then $27 a month, products that just wind people up. People feel cheated because the quality of the products have been less than satisfactory. MANY marketers have sold out to sell high commission products that are just total garbage.

    There are better ways to launch products that acutally show your customers that you want to help them, even without payment up front. I still believe in the 50/50 principle, give away 50% of your best content and use that to keep people coming back to learn more, and then sell 50% of your best content for a reasonable fee, because you built up a positive rapport with your customers (who can also help you add content to your site and keep even more people visiting) you will make sales over a longer period of time, whether it be from info products, DVDs, streaming video, or tangible products like equipment, courses, etc.

    Just my thoughts on the subject

    Regards

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I am constantly getting product launch spam. That could be one reason. Also, people are spending less money now. This is due to our poor economy.
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  • Profile picture of the author tgilberg
    The Title of this post Should be Changed to "Product Launches are the BOMB"

    In my niche market I rotate product launches every month (NON IM Make Money)
    They have worked like clockwork every time I run them.
    I have enough different products so that I do not burn out the lists I have generated.

    What I do not understand is when people constantly post, they are getting spammed with all these IM offers, 1 word UNSUBSCRIBE it is a simple click away.

    If you follow a GURU or Internet Marketer why would they not promote marketing packages. I assume you participate on this MARKETING FORUM to learn how to make
    money. The GURUS did not hold a gun to your head to get on their list.

    If you never bought a high end product and simply implemented the great free content the GURU's use to build excitement in the product launches I really think you would be
    amazed at how it could help your business grow.

    Tim
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    • Profile picture of the author sirtom
      In my experience it depends on the niche and how you do it. The MMO/IM crowd sees this stuff all damn day, and half of us are on the same lists anyway, so it's really not a shock to see products bombing.

      Especially when all the JV partners are using the same swipe copy, so your inbox has 7 consecutive emails with the same headline all coming from different marketers.

      (In my experience, if it's YOUR list, you should at least write the email promoting the product.)
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  • Profile picture of the author chasnsx
    The reason product launches are bombing is simple: Buyers have wised up enough that no one is going to buy a product unless someone (preferably the seller) has actually used it to do whatever the seller is claiming it will do.

    In other words, if you want to sell a get rich product on the web, it better be something you used to get rich before you start selling it to others. There are too many sellers who jump right into selling "make money" products even though they have no experience making money with that sort of product, and there are gurus who are so far removed from having used their own products to make money that they have dissipated their credibility.

    Think about it, folks. If you are studying martial arts, you want a teacher who has kicked somebody's ass at least once in his life, and preferably you want the guy with a bunch of championship plaques on the wall, but you also look at the championships and if the last one was 20 years ago, then you move on because his technique is out of date.
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    • Originally Posted by chasnsx View Post

      In other words, if you want to sell a get rich product on the web, it better be something you used to get rich before you start selling it to others. There are too many sellers who jump right into selling "make money" products even though they have no experience making money with that sort of product, and there are gurus who are so far removed from having used their own products to make money that they have dissipated their credibility.
      Bingo!

      In other words, this is what we call "proof".

      There's no better sales pitch than an undeniable proof saying "this is what I got, this is how I've been using it, this is how I've benefited from it myself, this is how it can help you too, and this is how much I will sell it to you for".

      If you've got that in place, and you can get the word out (aka promotion), your Product Launch will not bomb.

      Promised!
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  • A product launch is nothing but a fancy way of presenting a product or offer to the public. Saying that Product Launches are bombing is like saying that capitalism and/or consumerism are bombing.

    Like in any other offer or sales venture, as long as A) your product addresses an existing need, B) you can back up your claims with undeniable proof and C) you know how to market/promote your stuff, there's no reason as of why a Product Launch should inherently bomb.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aira Bongco
    So you are saying that a particular guru's product launch bombed...

    What's that got to do with my business?

    Do you want me to stop promoting the gurus' launches? Do you want me to explain why this is happening? Do you just want to explore how 'weak' the gurus are? All of which are a waste of my time and will just lose me money.

    Even if it bombed, I will still keep promoting them because they have the name and their products are easy to sell. And I think we have enough 'theories' about why the guru's product launch bombed in this thread.

    On the sidenote, I enjoyed how people suddenly change sides with each post in this thread. This is definitely entertaining.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi airabongco,

      Originally Posted by airabongco View Post

      Do you want me to stop promoting the gurus' launches?[snip]Even if it bombed, I will still keep promoting them because they have the name and their products are easy to sell.
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      You're not very successful then? :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    No Mr. Puddy...I wrote it yesterday. What thread?

    This would seem to be an appropriate response taken from another thread
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    and the actual product?

    Even if it bombed, I will still keep promoting them because they have the name and their products are easy to sell. And I think we have enough 'theories' about why the guru's product launch bombed in this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author seankaye
    This thread has had some time to digest and we've seen a bunch of product launches since then... Personally I've participated in most of the big launches as an affiliate over the last six months and I'm not really seeing "guru product launches are dead".

    Let's look at the last few -

    Andy Jenkins re-released Video Boss and that did very well, it's still inside the guarantee period so its unclear what refunds were like.

    Brendon Burchard's Total Product Blueprint sold well, especially on the heels of Main Street Marketing Machines 2.0. Burchard skews to a slightly more female market and maybe a bit older than the traditional guru market. When I was in San Diego last month, I heard the figure of $5.8m bandied around. Obviously he's had some refunds and things, but I can tell you I've not had any refunds.

    Then there was Main Street Marketing Machines 2.0 Fusion from Mike Koenigs and that just absolutely crushed it by any standard. Unfortunately, I only made a couple sales (three from memory) and ALL of them refunded - same comment, far too complicated with all of the software and systems.

    Jeff Johnson's Super Affiliate Coaching Club was just before that and that launch needed Jeff Walker's parachute, airbags and everything imaginable because from what I could, it totally crash landed. I pushed ALOT of leads at that and did absolutely ZERO sales.

    At the time of this writing, Don Crowther's just opened his Social Profit Formula 2.0 cart this morning and I didn't even promote this product. I sent out an email with a link to my list explaining what the product was in case any of them have missed it. I didn't get many optins and I don't expect to sell anything.

    Here's my opinion on the whole thing...

    Koenigs crushed it because his launch videos were pretty special, they were very well crafted and produced. His product set also had a truckload of shiny software tools that everybody loves which made it even more attractive. It had massive appeal because of the buzz in local marketing and he had an interesting set of tools for mobile which was also generating buzz.

    The marketing of that product and the use of heroes and personal stories skewed it to a more female audience and that worked very well. The social proof was off the chart with people like Mike Lemoine and Brian Williams telling their stories.

    Unfortunately, as I experience with my customers, when they went in and tried to use the system, it was WAY TOO HARD. I like Mike Koenigs having recently met him, but I don't care who says it, that product had too many moving parts and software pieces for people to get the hang of quickly.

    They've done a great job with webinars and teaching, but I think it would have been better offer being cut back dramatically in terms of functionality. As someone with a strong "enterprise software" background where we've rolled out tens of millions of dollars in systems with massive training budgets, I would never have rolled that out to a company - far too complex and the usability is not there. That's not to say the products are crap and don't work - I'm sure they do, its just way too complex for the average person to understand without being overwhelmed quickly.

    Burchard's launch was as good as it could be and he's a deliver machine. He is amazing at selling 90% of something and making it look like you're getting 110% value, but then suddenly he surprises you with the other 10% and now you think he's totally over delivering. He's the best in the business at "teaching" direct to camera and he deserves his success. I buy his products personally as well as promote them. Oh and Brendon's organization internally is awesome, that launch closed in late May and I've already been paid my commissions.

    Video Boss was also really well done. Andy is, as he says himself, an acquired taste. What he did really well over the last year or so has been to help everybody else out with their launches, really provide a ton of value to the "big dogs" and they came out and promoted hard for him. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I know from my own sales and what people I know did and the numbers were very good. People in the top 10 all had over 25 sales so its safe to say that the top two or three guys probably hit triple digits.

    Jeff Johnson is a nice guy, but the Super Affiliate Coaching Club launch was (from an affiliates point of view) a disaster. It went on for like 5 weeks. The sales letter at launch was way too long and the offer was probably the worst I've seen in the couple years I've been in this industry. $2000 for 3 months access to the information that suddenly got doubled? Then you were given free access to another $2000 product (Traffic Voodoo 2.0) a little bit after that. The initial sales offer tried to sell you into a massively expensive coaching program, so people immediately thought they were buying the lite version for $2000.

    And the content wasn't ready - Jeff held a seminar where much of the courses content comes from after the original launch was supposed to have closed. So people like me started promoting and then we're told its being delayed a couple weeks and then when it comes out, you can see that most of the original content comes from this seminar.

    I think Jeff is a smart guy and a great marketer, but that was a terrible launch. I also hear that it didn't sell well. One thing I heard from my list was they didn't want to hear anymore about his Mercedes he'd just won - I think the whole campaign turned people off.

    With Don Crowther, I just think its bad timing. I've really liked his pre-launch content, but I just promoted three big products in the last two months, me and my list need a break. I think its an interesting topic. However, I think a launch that falls in the middle of the 4th of July is destined for troubles.

    Overall, I think at the very top end of the market, what gets called the "Guru" space, quality still sells. I think the whole launch process is overdone and people are now gaming it for bonuses because they know people will give away a truckload of freebies.

    However, its ironic that these same customers are complaining of overwhelm as the main reason they aren't implementing. Interesting.

    I think the "free line" is out of control, its diminishing the value of the products themselves.

    What interesting is that Ryan Deiss is now doing much more evergreen stuff at lower price points. I notice Eben Pagan is too - I've gotten a great deal of offers from him recently under $297 - from memory "How to start your business from scratch" was $0 upfront and $97 in thirty days. It was nice little product, I was very happy to buy it.

    I think there will always be the massive launches like MSMM 2.0 and Total Product Blueprint. People like Jeff Walker and Andy Jenkins with their products will continue to be successful because the IM niche has a steady inflow of newbies who could can get value out of those products. I'm sure other "top dogs" will continue to be "successful" by almost any sensible measure, but there is a tailing off happening.

    Anyway, great thread...
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    • Profile picture of the author InfoGirl
      Sean, do you have any info on Trey Smith's Iphone App maker?
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      • Profile picture of the author Good News Now
        I think these high ticket products is way overpriced.



        People are spending less with economy so unpredictable.



        Also, there are too many product lunches. People are getting tired.


        The best way today:



        1. build relationship-prove yourself by providing value.
        Not only with the formula of four videos and product for sale.


        2. creativity. product lunch formula is so over saturated in IM niche. Sometimes, it looks so funny how people copy each other.


        3. cut the price. conversion will go higher. Why is this price tag of $1999 always needs to be followed?
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Originally Posted by seankaye View Post

      This thread has had some time to digest and we've seen a bunch of product launches since then... Personally I've participated in most of the big launches as an affiliate over the last six months and I'm not really seeing "guru product launches are dead".

      Sean, good post and good to hear from someone who has promoted these products as an affiliate.

      However, this I fear is one of the big issues with guru launches, people promote them without actually seeing whats available, so you are emailing your subscribers, recommending something that you haven't seen.

      (I am not directing this at you and I don't want this to come across as a personal attack)

      You said yourself that Jeff Johnson had no course available to sell at the time of the launch. Imagine if someone here did that with a $5 WSO , he'd be crucified!

      If you had promoted it and some of your subscribers had bought it, what would they think of you after that?

      Video boss was an update of video boss 1 so I can see how people can be comfortable with promoting that .

      I've lost count of the number of "guru" courses i've bought that haven't actually been ready after the launch, even Video boss 1 was created after the launch.

      Because they generally close down sales for the courses before anyone has actually been through the material no one can promote then products with an informed view.

      It just seems ethically and morally wrong!
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      • Profile picture of the author mrbawb
        Yeah. Won't say product launches are a thing of the past...

        ...but...

        ...high ticket items will DEFINITELY have to be stellar in the future.

        For myself, I'm growing weary of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It could simply be a case of the list having seen it all before, market saturation is bound to happen, especially is the product is just rehashed material others have seen somewhere else (i.e. the list)
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Its amazing how many IM products are launched every month to me.

    But what I guess surprises me even more is the success of the ones that promise INSTANT $3K profits in your Clickbank account if you give them like $47 for the software.

    There's a quite a bit of merit in the old phrase "if it sounds too good to be true... it is"
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary J Martin
    The reason those products launches didn't relatively poorly (apparently) could be an aberration.

    Or obviously could be a result of several factors which have been discussed previously.

    Certainly product launches will become stale if the same tactics are used over and over in the same market.

    Time will tell if those recent disappointing (apparently) results are a trend or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Murlu
    #1: The economy is down so people have very little expendable income.

    #2: People are starting to realize that a lot of the big products out there can easily be replicated with a few hours of research and finding free, high quality tutorials by people that are writing about it on their blogs.

    Just my 2 cents.
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