Keep your PIMP and H.O.E. to yourself!

by DavidO
95 replies
I've just unsubscribed from a very popular and well-known list because I'm sick and tired of this increasing trend toward vulgarity and tackiness. Pimp this and pimp that was getting bad enough but now the H.O.E. is one step too far down.

Now before you dismiss me as some old fart or a religious fundamentalist I should make it clear that I'm no stranger to bad language and seediness. I sometimes use far worse language... but I'm respectful enough to do so in the right circumstances and company.

"So just unsubscribe if you don't like it..." you may say. That I've done, but I would like to add here for the benefit of other marketers and my business environment in general that this trend is going too far.

If you're marketing to a list of known porn enthusiasts it's one thing. But a very large general marketing contact list is made up of a wide cross-section of society. You don't address a large, mixed group with PIMP and H.O.E. It's bad judgement, it's disrespectful and it's dumb because it's bad marketing.
#hoe #pimp
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Sorry to have offended you David - question: Did you READ the newsletter?
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469166].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    I agree with you, David.

    But it isn't just the bad language that annoys me, it is the assorted slang terms, horrendous spelling, being told I 'must' read this, being told that I have to confirm my request when I haven't made one, being told of a cash payment confirmation, being told I am the first to know or it is a secret just for me and so on - and many of these by people who should know better.

    Probably the most annoying emails at the moment are those which tell you there are just a few hours left to get your free software - just use the following password. These might seem to be reasonable in the IM world but, really, I can understand an offer to buy into a high monthly subscription but I wonder how many people do not realise that with these, they have to opt out if they really want the software for free.

    The most infuriating emails - the 20 or 30 that come with exactly the same subject line!
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469211].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      hmmmmm

      Perhaps I am a little strange then....

      I actually kind of like it. When I read an email from someone like JMO and a couple of others who don't necessarily use "bad" language, although I'm sure the word "pimp" has been written a time or two, I feel like I'm reading an email from a friend.

      On the other hand, the guys that get all technical with their prim and properness usually don't get read in my email box.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469227].message }}
  • Andy,

    While I don't personally object to the language, asking if he "READ" the newsletter like that is either missing the point or just obnoxious, almost suggesting that the content justifies it's offensiveness and he must be "STUPID" to remark.

    Mark
    Signature
    = = = = COMPLETE, CUSTOM ADSENSE SITE = = = =
    VERY Limited WSO. 100% Guaranteed.

    MY Expertise, YOUR Profit.
    Read the thread.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469235].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I wasn't going to read the email. Frankly I thought
    the title was stupid - not offensive - so I didn't
    open it.

    I looked through the email. It's ok. If you haven't
    read certain books it might be a revelation.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469263].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Just making a list here: I'm obnoxious, offensive, "stupid" and I have no sense when applying humor to education. Anything else?
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469319].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Any way I can get a copy of this thing to read? Now you got me curious.

      I guess I'm just not on the right lists anymore.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469325].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Ditto that, Steve!

        Where can I sign up?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469332].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          I just gave it a read. I didn't see anything offensive about the title or the content. As a matter of fact, the content was quite good

          As far as the PIMP and H.O.E. thing, I personally think people take things too literally. Hell, next time someone tells you to Keep It Simple Stupid are you going to assume that they are calling you STUPID?

          It's a catchy name for a technique and a title that probably drew a lot of readers in, nothing more in my opinion.

          David, I can see why some people might be offended by it. Don't want you to think that my post was directed at you or challenging the way YOU feel about the situation.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469348].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author discrat
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I just gave it a read. I didn't see anything offensive about the title or the content. As a matter of fact, the content was quite good

            As far as the PIMP and H.O.E. thing, I personally think people take things too literally. Hell, next time someone tells you to Keep It Simple Stupid are you going to assume that they are calling you STUPID?

            To me stuff like these slang words are not offensive or any thing like that. I just find the use of them so silly. Its hard to take serious, particularly if its a certain group of people trying to act or be something that they are not and never will be !!
            In all due respect you really just look foolish, to be honest !
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471855].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    It's on our Blog Steve. I'd post it the url, but do not want to violate WF policy.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469331].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      It's on our Blog Steve. I'd post it the url, but do not want to violate WF policy.
      Andy, if you can PM me the link, I'd like to read it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469359].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Marketers using the crude-lewd approach need to know what their target market profile is. I remember some time ago when JMo announced he was using in-your-face subject lines - and saw he modified that approach rather quickly when results weren't what he wanted. That tracking/testing is necessary if you are using street talk in business communications.

      Such language used repeatedly appeals to the young and macho market but may increase unsubscribes or unopened emails in a broader market.

      Question is - are you using that language because it appeals to your target market.....just because you can....or because you don't have anything better to say?

      Did you READ the newsletter?
      That's the point. Depending on your target market, the newsletter may NOT be read. Doesn't matter how great the info is in it - if the language or tone is objectionable, many won't read further.

      kay
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

      I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469368].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I don't think you are stupid, Andy.

    Lots of people love stupid stuff. There's even a video
    site called stupidvideos.com.

    I'm sure you have a big enough list you can tell if this
    gets you sales or not. Whether the subject line is
    silly or offensive or dumb doesn't matter in the end.

    I've got my best clickthrough rates with
    "Check this out - funny" - and it was funny, but I
    wasn't selling anything so it arguably doesn't mean anything
    at all for my business.

    What it DOES tell me is that people like to be entertained.
    Your stuff is generally entertaining and informative so
    you have nothing to be ashamed of. So is Frank Kern's
    stuff - but it's also often silly.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469375].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tony X
    Andy,

    I kinda liked it...especially with the picture. But then again, I'm 24 years old. I thought it was catchy, humorous, and educational at the same time. I guess you can't please everyone.
    Signature

    Christ Follower...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469400].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    I've just read it on the blog and I thought the article was really good.

    Not sure how I would have responded if I got Pimp etc as a subject line in an email tho. (I'd have probably deleted it thinking it was spam)

    Cheers
    Kim
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469407].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Who here, in this entire community thinks that I set out to piss people off?

    Seriously - who thinks I sat down to write that article with the intention of making people angry, or ruining their day?

    Still, I hear what you're saying, so...

    I may rethink the subject line to the next email. It was going to be "C.R.A.K. and P.I.P.E doubles woman's conversion" but maybe I'll soften it into "B.O.N.G Strategy get massive traffic - creates munchies."



    Welcome to the world of free speech and expression. Use them at your own risk.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469411].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      I can't imagine you set out to ruin anyone's day, and like I said, I personally thought the article was excellent.

      I can see tho how if your putting words like pimp etc in your subject line it would confuse and possibly offend people until at least they read it.

      Kim



      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      Who here, in this entire community thinks that I set out to piss people off?

      Seriously - who thinks I sat down to write that article with the intention of making people angry, or ruining their day?

      Still, I hear what you're saying, so...

      I may rethink the subject line to the next email. It was going to be "C.R.A.K. and P.I.P.E doubles woman's conversion" but maybe I'll soften it into "B.O.N.G Strategy get massive traffic - creates munchies."



      Welcome to the world of free speech and expression. Use them at your own risk.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469463].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Andy,

        I think your next email should deal with this issue -

        Famous Universities Create Knowledge

        Signature


        Roger Davis

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469502].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Andy,

          I think your next email should deal with this issue -

          Famous Universities Create Knowledge

          HAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

          use that one FO SHO!!!
          Signature

          "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

          Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469516].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author kf
      Whatever your original intention Andy, you created a lot of buzzzz. And ended up with readers you wouldn't otherwise have had (thanks to the OP).

      You know what they say ...

      There's no bad press.


      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      Who here, in this entire community thinks that I set out to piss people off?

      .
      Signature
      Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything. ~ Alexander Hamilton
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470242].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      Who here, in this entire community thinks that I set out to piss people off?

      Probably the same people who think you take your servers offline to make sales.

      By the way, isn't a hoe a garden tool?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470584].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
        Originally Posted by blackhatcat View Post

        By the way, isn't a hoe a garden tool?
        It is... My mother used to hoe for a summer job. You should see the looks I get when I tell people my Mom was a hoer.
        Signature

        Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470693].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author gyar29
    I too did not open the email until I read this thread. Not because I was offended, but because I overlooked it. I had to go back and find it.

    If Andy is tracking his open rates, I hope their not too skewed by this thread. And if so, we can probably expect Andy to try to author as many subject lines like "PIMP & H.O.E." as possible in the future.

    Once I read the email I understood the reason for the subject line. Andy was trying to catch my eye. He was attempting to standout from the 150 other emails I received yesterday. It didn't work with me. But it appears to have worked with others.

    So while it may have been offense to some perhaps it was also effective. Which in my opinion makes it a successful subject line.

    Additionally, while the information Andy is trying to pass on may not be new to most of us, it will be new to some. And I'm sure that many of us that the information was not new to can benefit from a friendly reminder now and again.

    So Andy in this subscribers opinion PIMP & H.O.E. me all you want, as long as you continue to supply me information of value, I just don't give a shit what your subject lines are. (Oops, my bad, I apologize if I offended anyone .)

    Gene
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469414].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DonDavis
    I also like the emails that read something like...

    "Hey, read this"

    Some of these guys are getting a little full of themselves.
    The arrogance is almost comical.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469422].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Tell you what - lets do this:

    Tell me the precise email subject line you'd like to see that will Not Offend.

    Presume that the body of the email will contain great content (Cause that's pretty easy).

    Tell me what it is, and my next email will be "For my WF Friends: [Subject]" and I'll publish the open rates.

    So, the PIMP and HOE (Which stands for Positive Impressions from Multiple Persuasions and Heroic Ownership Experience) got a composite of 33% Open Rate across all of our lists.

    Lets see if we can beat it.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469434].message }}
  • Andy,

    Someone in your position should understand that this is bound to happen, and I would think would know how to handle it better.

    Based on your reaction here, and in several other posts and threads, it makes me wonder if you are so easily moved toward hostility (however subtle it may appear), and how that might affect your relationship with customers, potential or not.

    Just my observations!
    Signature

    Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469474].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
      Originally Posted by Christopher R Everson View Post

      Andy,

      Someone in your position should understand that this is bound to happen, and I would think would know how to handle it better.

      Based on your reaction here, and in several other posts and threads, it makes me wonder if you are so easily moved toward hostility (however subtle it may appear), and how that might affect your relationship with customers, potential or not.

      Just my observations!

      Hostile? LOL. Chris, I am so far from hostile right now. This is live market feedback! This is priceless stuff!

      I hate to use a "line" but, you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Friend, there is NOTHING here that I haven't heard or seen before, because I sorta do this for a living.

      Hostile? Not at all. Amused? Oh Hell Yeah!

      I think we'll just agree on the definition of "Handle Better". Fair enough?
      Signature
      www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

      "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469858].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

        Hostile? LOL. Chris, I am so far from hostile right now. This is live market feedback! This is priceless stuff!

        I hate to use a "line" but, you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Friend, there is NOTHING here that I haven't heard or seen before, because I sorta do this for a living.

        Hostile? Not at all. Amused? Oh Hell Yeah!

        I think we'll just agree on the definition of "Handle Better". Fair enough?


        Now you're just being violent Andy... why the freak out dude?..

        One might be led to believe that you have anger management issues, your calm and relaxed tone is very O.T.T.

        Peace

        Jay
        Signature

        Bare Murkage.........

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469872].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

        This is live market feedback! This is priceless stuff!
        Maybe priceless. But maybe worthless.

        Andy, did you see a spike in unsubscribes after the message? If not, I wouldn't worry too much about people say when they come here. It's what they do that counts. But you already know that.


        P.S.
        I think people are forgetting that a hoe is a garden tool.
        Signature
        "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
        ~ Zig Ziglar
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472388].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
    Originally Posted by DavidO View Post


    If you're marketing to a list of known porn enthusiasts it's one thing. But a very large general marketing contact list is made up of a wide cross-section of society.
    Are you suggesting that Stompernet doesn't know what they are doing?

    Wide cross-section of society?

    How do you know so much about their email list?

    What if their list isn't as generic as you think?

    What if the majority of their subscribers are porn site owners?

    You don't address a large, mixed group with PIMP and H.O.E. It's bad judgement, it's disrespectful and it's dumb because it's bad marketing.

    Bad judgement?

    Disrespectful?

    DUMB?

    Bad Marketing?

    Huh?

    I think that you used poor judgment when you started this disrespectful post--Because regardless of how vague you're being about the identity of the group of people you are bashing...

    We all know that you are talking about Stompernet

    The fact that you are exploiting a loophole in the forum rules--Proves that you shouldn't be the judge, for anyone else, on what's dumb, bad judgment, disrespectful, or bad marketing.

    You unsubscribed from their list because you don't care for their use of colloquialisms... good for you!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469475].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JVManna
    Personally, I find it's okay to push the edge a little, spark a bit of controversy. When a marketer has the brass to speak freely and not worry about sales, opt-outs or flaming responses, I respect them much more.

    I think the usage of PIMP and H.O.E. in the e-mail was appropriate because Andy was making reference to a metaphor and was being creative with it. At no point did the email contain gratuitous references, misogyny or other pieces that would overtly offend anyone.

    It all depends on the audience, the expectations and the willingness to hold your own brand despite the will of others.

    Andy -- Please don't for one second even think about changing the way you write. Write from the heart and mean it. If you change your copy in response to someone upset over the usage of pimps and hoes, I may too unsubscribe.
    Signature
    Joseph Manna
    Community Manager | Infusionsoft
    joseph.manna@infusionsoft.com

    I don't check PMs. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns about Infusionsoft via email.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469479].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kristi Lane
    My reaction:

    The title got an eyebrow raise and the email was tagged to read later, not because of the title but because it was from Stompernet. I'd be surprised if there was much variation in your open rates regardless of the title.

    I read the email today, was impressed that it was content-rich and not just a link to a video like so many these days.

    Kristi
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469510].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    JVMana - wise counsel.

    I think most people know that I'm built to create controversy - for good or for ill. Clearly, I've done that.

    Ultimately, I will NEVER change the way I communicate to my subscribers - ever. I will continue to create great videos, great reports, and perhaps tick a person or 20 off with my personal style.

    I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm trying to make people smile and shake their head.

    As long as that keeps working for 99% of the people that ELECT to be a subscriber, the style is not going to change.

    Thanks for your thoughts everyone - seriously.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469519].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      I just wanna know when the "crack pipe" product comes out.

      I'm saving my allowance in the piggy bank for that one!
      Signature
      FREE 7-Day Video Training On How To Get People To Know, Like, Trust & Buy From You - http://www.nichefamous.com/
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469530].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Eric Land
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        I just wanna know when the "crack pipe" product comes out.

        I'm saving my allowance in the piggy bank for that one!
        lol

        (me to)
        Signature

        I am looking for ad swaps pm me if you are too!

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469545].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          My 2 cents for what they're worth these days.

          First off, the OP has every right to unsubscribe from the list if he found the
          subject line offensive. He even has every right to come here and bitch
          about it, though I can see the argument that this is an end around the
          forum rule # 1. But whatever.

          I personally found the article informative and worth reading. It was also well
          written and interesting...not dull.

          But here's my "take it for what it's worth to you" about this whole matter.

          If more people spent less time bitching and complaining about every little
          thing that pisses them off and more time actually working on their business,
          they might actually make more money.

          And with that, I am going to do JUST that.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469617].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      JVMana - wise counsel.

      I think most people know that I'm built to create controversy - for good or for ill. Clearly, I've done that.

      Ultimately, I will NEVER change the way I communicate to my subscribers - ever. I will continue to create great videos, great reports, and perhaps tick a person or 20 off with my personal style.

      I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm trying to make people smile and shake their head.

      As long as that keeps working for 99% of the people that ELECT to be a subscriber, the style is not going to change.

      Thanks for your thoughts everyone - seriously.
      Marketing lesson here...

      Never write the email to suit anyone but yoursrlf... the idea being your list will be much more responsive if your personality is stamped on it and you attract (and retain) those people who associate with you.

      Trying to be all things to all people is impossible... So be you and attract people who like and associate with you

      Robert

      PS: Much less stress involved writing emails or copy if you write them with your personality in them, trying to be something your not is hard work
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470341].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    ExRat - LOL! Let me see if I have a video case study for that....
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469522].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ldimilo
    I guess it goes to show you that you can't please everyone. I didn't get the same vibe as the OP and wasn't offended at all..then again, hardly anything offends (or surprises) me these days.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469631].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Didn't the OP essentially use the exact same tactic in this thread subject line, thus being guilty of the same "offence"?...

    That made me chuckle..

    I'm not subscribed to the list, but I went to look and have a read, it was, interesting.

    Peace

    Jay
    Signature

    Bare Murkage.........

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469650].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Didn't the OP essentially use the exact same tactic in this thread subject line, thus being guilty of the same "offence"?...

      Jay
      My sentiment exactly!

      It's called hypocrisy!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469656].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    For anyone else that had to spend more than a few minutes to find the article in question, here is the link:

    http://www.stomperblog.com/2009/01/2...it---well-duh/

    I hope that's ok. Just trying to save people time.


    To me it was a clever hook. The article had nothing to do with immoral behavior.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469680].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    ROFL! Damn it.... You're on to me.

    Lemme just go grab those little pill I was supposed to take every few hours and I'll edit all of my posts.

    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469892].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    This thread is just too funny.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[469981].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ricky Parker
    This thread made me ask myself......

    What came first, the pimp or the ho?

    Your thoughts.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470073].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      I think you should get "Fly Guy" on the Stomper team...

      Signature
      FREE 7-Day Video Training On How To Get People To Know, Like, Trust & Buy From You - http://www.nichefamous.com/
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470102].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Ricky Parker View Post

      This thread made me ask myself......

      What came first, the pimp or the ho?

      Your thoughts.
      The Pimp.. cuz' the ho faked it
      Signature

      Bare Murkage.........

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470104].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Andy,

      I believe the person was saying he thought you were dismissing a comment as stupid, not that you were stupid.

      Believe it or not, my first thought on the subject line was, "That's supposed to be "Ho." A 'hoe' is a farm and garden tool." (My inner wombat got the better of me for just that one second. I got better quickly.)

      My second thought was, "Lemberg's gotta be loving that one."

      As far as people thinking you're angry when you're amused... get used to it. Happens to me all the time.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470161].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        inner wombat
        I like that. Just out of interest, do you also have an outer wombat?

        I once corrected my son's spelling in his homework. After he suggested that it wasn't important, I corrected him and explained that it was a good habit to develop and also explained why (application forms for jobs etc, (although I never suggest he should be a wage slave :rolleyes: )).

        Anyway, the next day he turned into a wombat and got in trouble for nitpicking about spelling with illiterate teachers who taught woodwork and other non writing based skills.

        Was I therefore guilty of wombatting by proxy?

        Hi Josh,

        Imagine if you had a reader who was forced into prostitution and pimped out and then later escaped that life and started an internet business?
        This same point was made in a discussion we had about 'niche marketing on crack' in this forum.

        I would imagine that most marketers would hope that the woman in your extreme scenario is grown up enough to realise that using a word when it is obviously -

        a) out of context

        b) an acronym

        ....is totally different than saying something that suggests that you feel the situation she encountered is acceptable and a matter of amusement. And I also imagine most marketers would accept that even though that one person might unsubscribe through anger, the gains from using a powerful headline on everyone else are worth it.

        If you try and please everyone and be too PC, you might end up only pleasing those looking to be easily offended, or those who have lived out an extreme and uncommon experience. I think it's fair to say that the marketer's priority are prospects who are close to buying.

        Plus -

        I think most people know that I'm built to create controversy - for good or for ill. Clearly, I've done that.
        As long as that keeps working for 99% of the people that ELECT to be a subscriber, the style is not going to change.
        I don't think your argument is likely to make him change that approach.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470235].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
        David,
        well put, i tend to think that technology had taken away one of the biggest things that people had as an asset. People skills. email, social, texting on the phone... no skills left as far as dealing with general public.

        Thanks for the post
        Regards,
        Robert
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470545].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
        Andy,

        I was a ho before I got into pimping and was also offended by the email.

        Now I've really sunk low - I'm an internet marketer ;-)

        Seriously though, there's no need to be smart. Just listen to what people have to say and be big enough to remain cool, calm and collected.

        I posted a question about F5 a while ago and got a wise-crack response back from you. To be frank with you, it did put me off spending $1997 with you as I was interested at the time, not that it matters to you I guess...

        You may say it's my loss. I don't think so and I decided not to buy.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470721].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author fullmatrix
        Its just me or anybody else is also wondering what is a H.O.E??

        Hehe sorry, I don't understand
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471858].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Andy, I just now got time to read the article at the center of this little dust-up. Feel free to offend me with more clever acronyms like that whenever you please.

          And when you get to the lake of fire, try not to splash me. Please?
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472075].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sonni
        I haven't read it, but they're probably trying to reach a certain age group who relates to this type of talk. Just a business move and nothing more.

        There will good and bad in everything you just have to figure out if the good is good enough to put up with the bad.
        Sonni
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472293].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    Andy,

    Though it was meant to be a humorous play on words...

    The phrase refers to a relationship where a man sells a woman for sex and in many cases virtually enslaves her, controls her, and abuses her.

    Additionally there are thousands of prostitutes throughout the world who are kept as sex slaves and whored out by pimps against their will.

    Then there is the specter of child and teen prostitution.

    These are just a few of the related images that the phrase "Pimp and Hoe" unwittingly generates in the minds of some readers even though a Hoe is a garden utensil.


    If you think a little deeper you can see why this is not really the imagery you want to relate to your business and how it can taint any message.

    Having spent a couple years every day all day working to help people (many living on the streets) in Las Vegas improve their lives I can attest that the relationship of a Pimp and a Ho is not a positive reference.

    I think that what takes it beyond the humorous imagery of say the stereotypical Pimp from a movie like "I'm gonna get you sucka" and makes it offensive to some people is that you use the words pimp and hoe together.

    Ho is a derogatory reference often used to degrade women as well as actual prostitutes.


    Imagine if you had use the "N" word in a Joke. That would be distasteful, disrespectful and offensive right? The word "Ho" belongs to that class of words.

    When you put the words Pimp and Ho together in one sentence it usually refers to an abusive relationship where there is a man who controls and sells a woman.

    Maybe it is becoming more clear why using a line like that to try and describe something positive for your business is not the best choice in imagery even if it was meant to be a humorous play on words?

    Imagine if you had a reader who was forced into prostitution and pimped out and then later escaped that life and started an internet business?

    That would be pretty extreme...

    You have a lot of words to choose from in the English language. Maybe next time use some of those.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470228].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post


      The phrase refers to a relationship where a man sells a woman for sex and in many cases virtually enslaves her, controls her, and abuses her.
      While this is the case in many instances, there are also scenarios where it's just the opposite.

      In many instances a Pimp is there to "Protect" a woman who's already put herself in a very dangerous profession. Growing up on the streets and working as a cab driver I've known countless pimps and prostitutes.

      Yes, most of it was very ugly, dangerous, and risky.

      However, other times it was a safe way to ensure the women didn't get hurt. Now I'm not trying to stick up for pimps or anything like that, but let's face it, this is the oldest profession known to man.

      Like it or not, hookers will always exist. And personally, I don't see anything wrong with that as long as it's a decision made by the woman with a clear frame of mind. And as long as hookers exist, Pimps will exist. Some will exploit the women, and others are there for protection. And believe it or not, some prostitutes are way better off having pimps.

      It's easy to see how some would be offended by this. But it's also easy to see how some are offended by watching Dave Chappelle on Comedy Central. There's no way to please everyone.

      Andy is obviously not Ned Flanders. But he also isn't Larry Flint.
      Signature
      FREE 7-Day Video Training On How To Get People To Know, Like, Trust & Buy From You - http://www.nichefamous.com/
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470307].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Roger,

        Yes, I have an 'outer wombat.' I try to beat it into exhaustion editing my own stuff. I occasionally let it out to play when people get too full of themselves and start blasting others for errors, or claiming to be 'professional writers' when they can't even handle basic syntax.

        Otherwise, I try to keep it on a pretty short chain.

        "Wombat by proxy?" Ummm... fun phrase. Maybe you were, but you couldn't have predicted it. And your son probably started learning the balance because of it. That's not a bad thing at all.

        A good working philosophy on this was put into words by Jon Postel. He was talking about SMTP standards, I believe, but the words work really well for dealing with people:

        "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept."


        Josh,

        Easy, tiger. There's a difference between slang usage in humorous contexts or for analogies and literal usage. Forgetting that can lead to a loss of one's sense of humor.

        If there was any chance that Andy's comments would, in any way, make the behaviors you discuss more likely or accepted, I'd agree with you. I don't see that as being even in the realm of the possible, let alone probable.

        You do give a nice explanation of what people are thinking that makes them take offense, certainly. But that's all.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470367].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
          Josh,

          Easy, tiger. There's a difference between slang usage in humorous contexts or for analogies and literal usage. Forgetting that can lead to a loss of one's sense of humor.
          Surely you and I understand that...

          Regardless of the play on words its not the kind of picture I personally would choose when describing the content of a business newsletter...

          Maybe that is why Andy is more successful online than I am.

          Who knows.

          But we all have our varying perspectives on the use of copy and the positive and negative impact it can have.

          I wont buy any argument that the image "pimp and hoe" produces positive imagery as the subject or headline for any business development related content though.

          As the title of a comedy skit about a Pimp who gives up hustling and turns to gardening to rehabilitate himself it would work :-)
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470404].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
            Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post


            I wont buy any argument that the image "pimp and hoe" produces positive imagery as the subject or headline for any business development related content though.

            As the title of a comedy skit about a Pimp who gives up hustling and turns to gardening to rehabilitate himself it would work :-)
            Apparently you haven't been out partying lately Josh.

            The "Pimp & Ho Parties" is big biz...

            pimp and ho party - Google Search

            Obviously not your type of business but it's still business.
            Signature
            FREE 7-Day Video Training On How To Get People To Know, Like, Trust & Buy From You - http://www.nichefamous.com/
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470437].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
              [DELETED]
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470496].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Between ExRat and Paul Myers in here, this is one of the funniest threads I've seen in a while though.
                HAH!

                There. You see, Roger? I told you they were laughing at us! I am not going to stand for ...

                (What? They're supposed... Oh.)

                Never mind...


                Paul
                Signature
                .
                Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470537].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Josh,

            I don't necessarily share your opinion on it, but I'm not going to argue it. It's yours, it's an opinion, and it's well thought out and expressed.

            As opinions go, that doesn't suck.

            Just as something else to consider, this sort of subject line makes an excellent filter. (I don't suggest that's what Andy intended, as I don't even know the man, much less have any clue to his thinking.) Still, some of us deliberately use filters of various sorts to regulate who we end up doing business with.

            And yeah... some people will have taken offense. Others probably expected the humor in the piece. I have to say, I liked that a lot more than getting bulk email with "Personal" in the subject line. At best, I ignore those. Not much use for being lied to, no matter how the sender tries to rationalize it.


            Paul
            Signature
            .
            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470470].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sevenish
      I find that the very mention of certain gardening implements will polarize an entire community. Gardening, in particular, can be very controversial; people are so passionate in their beliefs and will argue to the very end.
      Signature

      100% atrocity-free! No annihilations, assasinations, explosions, killers, crushers, massacres, bombs, skyrockets or nukes.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471270].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        sevenish,
        I find that the very mention of certain gardening implements will polarize an entire community. Gardening, in particular, can be very controversial; people are so passionate in their beliefs and will argue to the very end.
        Conversation about night bloomers, sweet williams, johnny jump-ups, or passionflower all bring out similar effects.

        And don't even start talking about rooting with an Aussie!


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471279].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author sevenish
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          sevenish,Conversation about night bloomers, sweet williams, johnny jump-ups, or passionflower all bring out similar effects.
          Oh that's just great. You're deliberately trying to get this thread deep-sixed, aren't you?!

          You're so going to get flamed now.

          And don't even start talking about rooting with an Aussie!
          See there? Now you're just being depraved!

          I'm so disgusted. I'm going to just stomp off in a big huff now.

          P.S. HMPH!
          Signature

          100% atrocity-free! No annihilations, assasinations, explosions, killers, crushers, massacres, bombs, skyrockets or nukes.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471307].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DavidO
      I've just returned to the forum after posting my rant (too much work to spend much time here lately) and I'm happy to see that my thread generated some good debate.

      First, to Andy I must say that I have always enjoyed your content, which makes it a pity to unsubscribe from your list. In fact, your content is good enough that I don't think you need to "pimp" it with over-the-top subject lines.

      Secondly, I was not personally offended. I've been involved in a lot of edgy areas and am not at all "prim and proper". When the pimp stuff started coming out I thought it was amusing.

      But then you started seeing it everywhere, usually without the original wit, and it started getting tedious. Now with the addition of HOE I can see where it's all headed and it ain't pretty.

      A little of this stuff can go a long way. With too much use it wears off, meaning you need more and more to create the same effect. Eventually it can't help but get offensive.

      Then there's the main point: know your target audience. Andy's list must be huge and includes all types. It's like Milton Berle bragging in a loud voice that he ****ed Nancy Reagan at a charity dinner attended by the Reagans. (the bragging occurred at the charity dinner, not the f***ing!). This was a real incident.

      Berle's bragging would have been funny among a small group of friends but not addressed to the entire audience.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[471707].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    You know what they say ...

    There's no bad press.
    Whoever "they" are is wrong.

    Ecol i in hamburgers, Infidelity in the oval office, bit torrent packet blocking, Oil spill in Alaska...

    A few years back a popular viral internet marketing advertising service was bought out by an individual...

    That individual sent out an email to their list about how the night before they had seduced a woman. They included a link promoting a seduction manual that they claimed they used to learn how to seduce women.

    This resulted in lots of "bad publicity" which caused a huge negative impact.

    Unless of course his goal was to purge his subscriber base of everyone but those who appreciated predatory sexual habits.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470286].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author kf
      Josh,

      In this context, 'bad' press doesn't equate to 'negative'. Rather it points to something that may have flown under the radar but is now top-of-mind. Whatever the outcome, 'no bad press' means it's now in front of more eyeballs.


      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      Whoever "they" are is wrong.
      Signature
      Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything. ~ Alexander Hamilton
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470326].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
      I would imagine that most marketers would hope that the woman in your extreme scenario is grown up enough to realise that using a word when it is obviously -

      a) out of context

      b) an acronym
      Imagine if a major national brand created an ad that used this same title...

      Maybe a business development consulting firm for example?

      Their ad executive would never sign off on such a thing.

      I don't think your argument is likely to make him change that approach.
      It's not meant to. It's just meant to bring a different perspective to the conversation.

      Though I deleted the email because the subject line was tacky and not interesting enough to get me to open the email (and I open and read most of his emails because of their content) I did not find it "offensive" as some might.

      But I am sure anyone can clearly see how the word "Ho" which is what is played on in the email subject is quite offensive to many since it not only refers to prostitutes but also a derogatory reference toward women.

      "Ho" is never used to describe anything positive.

      "Pimp" often is.

      "Pimp and Ho" together never does.

      "Ho" belongs to a class of derogatory connotations which when used to the extreme tend to generate bad press.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470333].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ram
        Some folks are taking this stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.

        Ram
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470344].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

        Imagine if a major national brand created an ad that used this same title...

        Maybe an investment firm for example?
        Like Wu Tang Financial?

        Wu Tang Financial | Chappelle's Show | Comedy Central

        (Sorry, I couldn't help it)
        Signature
        FREE 7-Day Video Training On How To Get People To Know, Like, Trust & Buy From You - http://www.nichefamous.com/
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470350].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    Andy,

    I can't see anything wrong with the headline. While it may come off as offensive to some, once you read what it means, I find it rather creative.

    It's already been stated that you have to know your audience (list) for what you can and can't do, and only you know for sure what is acceptable. While everyone is upping the bar on creative headlines, only you will know when you have crossed the line.

    I think for the most part, that people need to get past tis 'political correctness' that has created a double standard. It doesn't work. I would rather talk to people where they live and in language they understand. Talking to them is better than talking at them or down to them.

    In the end, if people don't like it, all they have to do is unsubscribe. Easy enough.

    Thanks,

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470764].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Respect mon! We are all one people, one blood. No need for words of hate.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[470967].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    This thread is the best thread EVER!

    BTW - for those that asked:

    Positive Impressions from Multiple Persuasions & Heroic Ownership Experience

    P.I.M.P. and H.O.E.

    Now, don't be offended by the smiley face. That was just me smiling...again.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472138].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      This thread is the best thread EVER!

      BTW - for those that asked:

      Positive Impressions from Multiple Persuasions & Heroic Ownership Experience

      P.I.M.P. and H.O.E.
      Well, that's certainly better than Poor Impressions from Multiple Problems & Horrible Online Experience

      God bless progress...and God bless Dan Thies. That gentleman has really gone to bat for me. Something I truly appreciate.

      KJ
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472166].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        sevenish,
        I'm so disgusted. I'm going to just stomp off in a big huff now.

        P.S. HMPH!
        "Thank you. Come again."


        David,
        But then you started seeing it everywhere, usually without the original wit, and it started getting tedious. Now with the addition of HOE I can see where it's all headed and it ain't pretty.

        A little of this stuff can go a long way. With too much use it wears off, meaning you need more and more to create the same effect. Eventually it can't help but get offensive.
        That's typical in this space. People copy others, because they think what worked in one place will work in another, and they forget it's not "another" place. They're feeding the same lines back to the same market.

        When they're aware of that, they escalate, thinking that more is better. They just end up looking like bad copycats.* I'm waiting for the "bad news" subject to morph into, "OMFG! Its a disaster!"

        It hits just about every aspect of the trade, too. Look at the way the silly critters are using odd ascii symbols in their WSO subject lines. It's going to keep going until it hits the limit of the script that runs the place. Even if it stops being effective (assuming it is), it won't go away. New people will come in and think up the same old tricks again, and figure they're clever.

        It's an interesting thing, too, when you're the one being copied**, and people get annoyed with you because "you sound like everyone else." It's fun, though.

        Andy's got to be loving this.


        Paul

        * There's probably someone out there right now working on a product called "Google Armageddon." Grab the domain before they roll it out.

        ** I got a request for a critique of an email one time, from a guy I'd known for years. After I got done laughing, I sent him a reply that was basically, "The addition of hype does not make it a better piece. I prefer it the way I originally wrote it."
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472210].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author tomw
      Originally Posted by Andy Jenkins View Post

      Now, don't be offended by the smiley face. That was just me smiling...again.
      I wonder how long it's gonna be before some jackass complains that there is only one colour of smiley. About why there isn't an assortment of colours representing all of the diverse races, colours and creeds of the members. Maybe we could have a smiley with pigtails to represent the girls. But then of course some of the feminists out there would probably complain that this is demeaning.

      And hey, what about all of the other emoticons? I mean is it really fair that their right to express themselves is being suppressed by Allen and the rest of us so cruelly?

      I for one think we should have a rainbow smiley with a more androgynous appearance readily achievable by the ingenious masterstroke of the addition of a few extra pixels in order to represent a non pigeonhole-able hairstyle. Kind of an earlobe length bob sort of style. It would be a braver person then me to decide on the colour of that hair though.

      Perhaps we should discuss it aimlessly and in the recent typically Warrior Forum fashion of hostility and stupidity for...oh say...between eight and twelve pages. Just to make sure all sides are equally offended, offensive and, of course, to display an equal measure of "forum" insight and ignorance.

      In fact, I propose that we should set up a committee to appoint a sub-comittee to write a brief in order to create a report concerning the possibility of forming an elected panel of luminaries, who will be responsible for commissioning a body of experts, with the specific aim of conducting an inquiry into the foundation of a non executive subpanel that will be wholly accountable to all of us to make these kinds of brow furrowing, ethical, moral business decisions on our behalf.

      :rolleyes:

      The only thing more ridiculous (and hilarious) about this thread than the moral outrage of the OP is the fact that it has turned into a serious (earnest and worthy) discussion.

      This place used to be a marketing forum...targeting, strategy, tactics, communication, conversion, making a bunch of goddamn money...ah, those where the days.

      :rolleyes:

      [Disclaimer: By using two instances of the blue "rolls eyes" smiley variant, no offense is intended to rolls eyes smileys of any other sex, race, creed, occupation - even pimp or hoe versions - or any other form thereof]

      Thomas
      Signature
      STOP THE TRAFFIK: PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE BOUGHT AND SOLD
      Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

      STOP THE TRAFFIK is a growing global movement of individuals, communities and organisations fighting to PREVENT the sale of people,
      PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472207].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    I haven't been at this forum very long but I must congratulate the choreographer of this stream - the dance has been absolutely BRILLIANT with nobody out of step.

    THIS IS WHAT I CALL JOINT AND CLEVER ADVERTISING.

    Get somebody to post an adverse comment starting "I've just unsubscribed from a very popular and well-known list . . . " and then have the list owner immediately (well, 4 hours and 40 minutes later if you want accuracy) post an apology.

    I had no idea it was Stompernet that was the source of the offending email subject line but how soon will they add this clever strategy to their training, I wonder.
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472195].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      I haven't been at this forum very long but I must congratulate the choreographer of this stream - the dance has been absolutely BRILLIANT with nobody out of step.

      THIS IS WHAT I CALL JOINT AND CLEVER ADVERTISING.

      Get somebody to post an adverse comment starting "I've just unsubscribed from a very popular and well-known list . . . " and then have the list owner immediately (well, 4 hours and 40 minutes later if you want accuracy) post an apology.

      I had no idea it was Stompernet that was the source of the offending email subject line but how soon will they add this clever strategy to their training, I wonder.
      LOL Art - actually, I really don't know DavidO. I'm pretty sure he'd say the same thing. And now that he's unsubscribed, I'll never have the chance to get to know him.

      Not a bad idea though - I'm gonna write it down.
      Signature
      www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

      "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472202].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Dan is a great guy - completely Solid. Thanks for saying so.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472198].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    LOL Paul.... I am, kinda - yes.

    But I don't have time to bask in the funk - "Pimp My Ride" is on, and I need to find out why the creator of that show wasn't fired immediately.

    You're well?
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472258].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    Actually, Sonni - we were trying to get people to react to the subject line. I know my list demographic pretty well. They're more advanced in years than most others.

    It was not aimed a certain age group. So far, the good has been more than good enough.

    Thanks for the question.
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472307].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author DavidO
      This has been a great thread but I hope I can now lay it to rest. Yes, I probably took it (or myself too seriously but I still think I made some good points and I'm glad to have started a good discussion (though there are surely those who think it a waste of time and so be it).

      Andy, I'll be resubscribing. It's not enough to make a permanent issue out of and I'm sure you are a good guy. I was trying to make a marketing point only, not a moral one!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472347].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by tomw View Post

        In fact, I propose that we should set up a committee to appoint a sub-comittee to write a brief in order to create a report concerning the possibility of forming an elected panel of luminaries, who will be responsible for commissioning a body of experts, with the specific aim of conducting an inquiry into the foundation of a non executive subpanel that will be wholly accountable to all of us to make these kinds of brow furrowing, ethical, moral business decisions on our behalf.

        :rolleyes:

        Thomas
        I thought I recognized your picture, Congressman... :p

        OOPS, you're in the UK. I guess I should have said MP?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472392].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    I didn't read the email I got from Andy even though I am a subscriber.

    So I checked. Lo and behold...I found it in my spam box.

    So perhaps these kinds of headlines aren't that good after all...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472420].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Jenkins
    In the spirit of accord and tolerance, I wanted to thank DavidO for his closing thoughts.

    And to everyone, this has been an interesting experience, to be sure. I've found it valuable, and despite some vitriol, there's been some excellent and insightful comments.

    There's just 2 quotes that I'd like to share - I think both are relevant:

    "The greatest problem of communication is the
    illusion that it has been accomplished."

    George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

    and

    "We're all in this together, and we'll all get through it together"

    --a Honda Commercial.

    We're ALL marketers with a marketing mind-set. We're all customers with customer goals, fears, and objections.

    The trick is knowing what role to play and when to play it - because they are absolutely different perspectives.

    Pimpfully Yours,

    AJ
    Signature
    www.AndyJenkinsBlog.com

    "Shakespeare didn't have a word-processor. When we got word-processors, we didn't get Shakespeare"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472548].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Andy,
      But I don't have time to bask in the funk - "Pimp My Ride" is on, and I need to find out why the creator of that show wasn't fired immediately.
      [splorf]

      Dude, you have got to stop taking this all so seriously. You're setting a terrible example for all the erstwhile empire builders in the crowd...
      You're well?
      Both well and good, thanks.

      I love the quote about communication, by the way. Typical Shaw.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472563].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Moflow
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472628].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author jimrpips
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472701].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Jim,
            Meh. Lame and lazy.
            To me, that's fun and funny.

            It's probably also pretty effective, since those kinds of ads appeal to people with interests that could include travel. And let's face it, no matter what the product, sex sells.


            Paul
            Signature
            .
            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472737].message }}
  • Just my personal opinion, but I'm guessing that if an unknown low-post newbie had posted a thread saying "I just sent my list an email with the subject line 'P.I.M.P. and H.O.E", and got some complaints", that this conversation would be much different.

    I'd bet it would be along the lines of, "why would you send something like that to your list?", and "maybe you should try a more professional approach", and "this is why IM'ers get such a bad rap"...

    Mark
    Signature
    = = = = COMPLETE, CUSTOM ADSENSE SITE = = = =
    VERY Limited WSO. 100% Guaranteed.

    MY Expertise, YOUR Profit.
    Read the thread.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472747].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mark,

      I can't say you're wrong across the board, but I don't think I'd have said a lot different. I would have asked questions of the newbie that we didn't have to ask Andy, though.

      Stuff like, "What's your niche?," "What kind of stuff have you sent them in the past?," etc. A lot of it has to do with the content of the message, too. If it's good, people "get" the subject line.

      And the relationship with the subscribers. I've gotten excellent results from things that other people copied (wrongly) and got ripped for. For example, an email with the subject line, "What the HELL do you want?"

      Yes. Really.

      Next to that, "'PIMP and H.O.E. technique makes 68% more profit' - well DUH" seems tame.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[472911].message }}
      • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        And the relationship with the subscribers. I've gotten excellent results from things that other people copied (wrongly) and got ripped for. For example, an email with the subject line, "What the HELL do you want?"

        Yes. Really.

        Next to that, "'PIMP and H.O.E. technique makes 68% more profit' - well DUH" seems tame.


        Paul
        Paul,

        I think in some respects, while perhaps somewhat sharper, "What the HELL..." would be less 'objectionable'. I think "hell" is much more in the vernacular, and doesn't have the kinds of connotations that "pimp" and "hoe" do.

        Also, to my mind, that accomplishes more effectively what I assume drove the F5 subject line - boosting the open & read rate through curiosity, controversy, and boldness.

        Mark
        Signature
        = = = = COMPLETE, CUSTOM ADSENSE SITE = = = =
        VERY Limited WSO. 100% Guaranteed.

        MY Expertise, YOUR Profit.
        Read the thread.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[473223].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mark,
          Also, to my mind, that accomplishes more effectively what I assume drove the F5 subject line - boosting the open & read rate through curiosity, controversy, and boldness.
          To some people, that's certainly going to be true. To others, mine would seem insulting, while the Stomper subject line would be funny.

          Nothing will work for everyone. Anything can give someone a reason to feel offended. In the end, it's about the total message, and the context the reader supplies.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[473236].message }}

Trending Topics