SCAMS, LIES AND *BS*...

Elmar

11 years ago

Very sad when marketers have to rely on such tactics.

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Ettienne

11 years ago

Yep, we see it happening more and more each day. The desperation and scare tactics by these big-shots in the IM world is sad to say the least. I've never unsubscribed from this many lists as I have in these past few days.

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NovusInvi

11 years ago

It's real world though, you're always going to have people like that. Sadly.. But, try to remember for every one of them, they're are as many of us who know it's not true.

Fear tactic's only work if you allow them too!

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Report Card

11 years ago

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Nicko Chalke

Yeah...but the sad part of that is that there's many noobs on their lists who will be scared by that, that could have come here to the WF to get the help they need.

There should be a thread addressing people like this.

Um - correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that is what this one is doing.

Not sure about what clickbank just did - but those that put income claims on their salespages will soon find the FTC breathing hard on them. While it is true that people come to this forum for help - it's also true that it is a good market to target for IM products. Newbies have to learn to ignore wild claims just like everyone else does - and marketers need to make sure they can validate their claims. They also, from the number of posts I see about unsubscribes, need to use marketing tactics that don't make people sick to their stomachs. Not having any marketing savvy doesn't make a marketer a scammer - but it does turn off their sales pretty efficiently.

I have had people blast me for not souping up my salespages with the latest greatest hype. They probably make more than I do, but I bet they don't have the zero refund rate I do from shooting straight from the hip about what it is someone is buying. People are so used to writing hype that they don't see the forest for the trees sometimes. Why would I hype a freaking PLR salespage? People kinda know what they are looking for when they read the page - how would adding a bunch of hype do anything extra for those sales when I've got the stuff listed that tells them everything they need to know they are getting and can see if it's what they want? I don't get it.

I'd rather have fewer sales and know I'm hitting the mark for the people that purchase from me than hype it up and see that people have been mislead about what I am offering any day of the week. I can't say seeing a post like this about your marketing methods would be all too flattering.

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Steven Wagenheim

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Um - correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that is what this one is doing.

Not sure about what clickbank just did - but those that put income claims on their salespages will soon find the FTC breathing hard on them. While it is true that people come to this forum for help - it's also true that it is a good market to target for IM products. Newbies have to learn to ignore wild claims just like everyone else does - and marketers need to make sure they can validate their claims. They also, from the number of posts I see about unsubscribes, need to use marketing tactics that don't make people sick to their stomachs. Not having any marketing savvy doesn't make a marketer a scammer - but it does turn off their sales pretty efficiently.

I have had people blast me for not souping up my salespages with the latest greatest hype. They probably make more than I do, but I bet they don't have the zero refund rate I do from shooting straight from the hip about what it is someone is buying. People are so used to writing hype that they don't see the forest for the trees sometimes. Why would I hype a freaking PLR salespage? People kinda know what they are looking for when they read the page - how would adding a bunch of hype do anything extra for those sales when I've got the stuff listed that tells them everything they need to know they are getting and can see if it's what they want? I don't get it.

I'd rather have fewer sales and know I'm hitting the mark for the people that purchase from me than hype it up and see that people have been mislead about what I am offering any day of the week. I can't say seeing a post like this about your marketing methods would be all too flattering.

Sal, you're priceless.

There should be more marketers in the world like you.
This would be such a great place.

You just keep on doing what you're doing. There's a place in heaven for you.

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

I asked people here a while back to tell me what they meant when they used the word 'hype.' You can see the original thread here:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...what-hype.html

I'll attach my summary to this post.

Now, as far as OTOs...

If someone makes promises in an offer and you must buy the OTO to do what you were told the original product would let you do, it's a lie and the offer should be reported. However, if the OTO just makes it easier, that's not a lie. It's called an upsell.

I personally don't care for them much, but my preferences aren't (and shouldn't be) policy. It's easy enough to simply not buy the thing if you don't feel it's appropriate or necessary. That is a far better way to handle it than asking the forum to take over your thinking and remove the need for all those nasty "decision" things.

Paul
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mervyngoh

11 years ago

Just ignore them and move on.

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MikeAmbrosio

11 years ago

Hype isn't really the problem. It's hyped up lies and exaggeration bordering on lies. There's nothing wrong with using punchy wording to sell your products.

Sal, having a zero refund rate is fine. But keep in mind that having refunds does not always indicate a poor or hyped up product either. Personally, I would rather make 100 sales with a 15% refund rate than 25 with zero

I already know my products are good. But refunds have always been part of doing business.

It's that old saying - don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Hype isn't the problem - lies are and always will be. So go on and spice up your sale page a bit

Anyone that knows you already knows you're an honest person. Those who don't will buy and find out - then come back for more.

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HeySal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Hype isn't really the problem. It's hyped up lies and exaggeration bordering on lies. There's nothing wrong with using punchy wording to sell your products.

Sal, having a zero refund rate is fine. But keep in mind that having refunds does not always indicate a poor or hyped up product either. Personally, I would rather make 100 sales with a 15% refund rate than 25 with zero

I already know my products are good. But refunds have always been part of doing business.

It's that old saying - don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Hype isn't the problem - lies are and always will be. So go on and spice up your sale page a bit

Anyone that knows you already knows you're an honest person. Those who don't will buy and find out - then come back for more.

Hype is different from well worded sales copy - hype makes something sound bigger than it is. There is a fine line between exciting copy and hype - but it's one that you do not really want to cross. It leads to disappointed buyers.

Of course - PLR doesn't take a lot of exciting copy to sell, so I just list the facts. People know what they need for PLR, they don't need convincing. In other niches, a bit more excitement is a necessity to make them want the product - but I would never HYPE a piece of sales. Catchy phrasing to describe the truth is not beyond me, but I don't believe it is necessary or a good thing to make something sound beyond what it actually is - and that is what HYPE is. I'm thinking that you and I were talking about two different styles of writing. It's sad that the word "hype" is so worn out and the technique so over-used that people are mistaking the word for meaning sharp, witty advertising copy.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Mike,

Would this be the same guy whose webinar crashed a while back, and sent out an email claiming "The Gurus" sabotaged him to keep him from getting the word out?

Paul

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,

Would this be the same guy whose webinar crashed a while back, and sent out an email claiming "The Gurus" sabotaged him to keep him from getting the word out?

Paul

LOL... I think you're on to him!

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Randall,

Time to unsubscribe from this person's list, and ignore their advice with great vigor.

Don't confuse the hype with the substance. Dude is one smart cookie. His arsenal needs a few less incendiary devices, but other than that, you could learn a lot from him.

Well, you could if he'd get out of the destructive mindset he seems to have been in for the past while.

Paul
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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Hype is different from well worded sales copy - hype makes something sound bigger than it is. There is a fine line between exciting copy and hype - but it's one that you do not really want to cross. It leads to disappointed buyers.

Of course - PLR doesn't take a lot of exciting copy to sell, so I just list the facts. People know what they need for PLR, they don't need convincing. In other niches, a bit more excitement is a necessity to make them want the product - but I would never HYPE a piece of sales. Catchy phrasing to describe the truth is not beyond me, but I don't believe it is necessary or a good thing to make something sound beyond what it actually is - and that is what HYPE is. I'm thinking that you and I were talking about two different styles of writing. It's sad that the word "hype" is so worn out and the technique so over-used that people are mistaking the word for meaning sharp, witty advertising copy.

I think people are getting confused between Hype and all out Lying... Granted the industry doesn't help with all the blatant lies. And with those lies people see that as hype... That isn't Hype, they are all out lies...

Hype is enthusiastic selling with no lies. Hype is framing your position on what you have to offer, without the lies... Hype is getting your prospective customers excited about your offer... The offer in which you actually deliver on... Hype is phrasing your sales message in a way that's easy to understand what your product does...

Hype is NOT a bunch of lies like everyone thinks... When people mention Hype others automatically think "Lies or stretching the truth" which is completely wrong...

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Rus Sells

11 years ago

Mike,

That's your definition of hype? Sorry but there are more negative connections to the word hype then their are positive.

How about; exaggeration, questionable claims, trickery, swindle, falsify, these definitions pretty much only relate to marketing or selling a product. Why is that? lol

Exaggeration in any form is a lie, period. Hype is included soI have to disagree with you. I think the overall consensus among people is that "HYPED" marketing messages are suspect and deceptive in some way.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I think people are getting confused between Hype and all out Lying... Granted the industry doesn't help with all the blatant lies. And with those lies people see that as hype... That isn't Hype, they are all out lies...

Hype is enthusiastic selling with no lies. Hype is framing your position on what you have to offer, without the lies... Hype is getting your prospective customers excited about your offer... The offer in which you actually deliver on... Hype is phrasing your sales message in a way that's easy to understand what your product does...

Hype is NOT a bunch of lies like everyone thinks... When people mention Hype others automatically think "Lies or stretching the truth" which is completely wrong...

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

Mike,

That's your definition of hype? Sorry but there are more negative connections to the word hype then their are positive.

How about; exaggeration, questionable claims, trickery, swindle, falsify, these definitions pretty much only relate to marketing or selling a product. Why is that? lol

Exaggeration in any form is a lie, period. Hype is included soI have to disagree with you. I think the overall consensus among people is that "HYPED" marketing messages are suspect and deceptive in some way.

Hype to the left side of the room... Blatant and all out lies to the right.

I can't help it if you see hype as the same as lying. I sure don't... However the lies people tell have been surrounded by hype which is why you are getting them confused.

You can certainly use Hype without income claims and without lying... It's all in how you use your words.

I never mentioned exaggeration and your right it is lying... I don't disagree with you there but just because you see Hype as Lying doesn't mean it is a lie now does it?

Right now when you hear the word Hype you immediately think of exaggeration, questionable claims, trickery, swindle, falsify (your words not mine) So no wonder you disagree about hype.

However, forget about that association you have with that word and think of hype the way I had described it. Telling the truth in an exciting and enticing way!

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Hype to the left side of the room... Blatant and all out lies to the right.

I can't help it if you see hype as the same as lying. I sure don't... However the lies people tell have been surrounded by hype which is why you are getting them confused.

You can certainly use Hype without income claims and without lying... It's all in how you use your words.

I never mentioned exaggeration and your right it is lying... I don't disagree with you there but just because you see Hype as Lying doesn't mean it is a lie now does it?

Right now when you hear the word Hype you immediately think of exaggeration, questionable claims, trickery, swindle, falsify (your words not mine) So no wonder you disagree about hype.

However, forget about that association you have with that word and think of hype the way I had described it. Telling the truth in an exciting and enticing way!

Hype is the number one thing that the big G slams most of the time and is pertinent to most clickbank products or as in a similar manner to the copy used in most click bank products and given that I have read some WSO offers here that fall short of the bull crap pile by inches.

Hype in a basic form will never run on any google advertising hence the big shut down of 99% of any clickbank promotions on clickbank and i would very much doubt if the same did not apply to most if not all WSO's listed here, they simply would not run and people would have accounts banned.

Hype in googles eyes is along these lines -

Words or reference to anybody being able to do something

good examples of this would be

Buy my snake oil potion and fix your pimples for life
Buy my wso and make $1000 per day within a week
This book will show you how to get you lover back

Pretty well anything that pertains that with this offer my woes and cures will be fixed regardless of who what where and why I am.

Anyway I talked to Google about the Unacceptable Business Practice -Misleading/Inaccurate Claims meaning and I found out:

1) the site cannot say it will work for everyone
2) cannot say the product is "Fool Proof"
3) Basically cannot over-hype the product's ability in any way

Any site that does any of the above, will get flagged for Unacceptable Business Practices

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Hype is the number one thing that the big G slams most of the time and is pertinent to most clickbank products or as in a similar manner to the copy used in most click bank products and given that I have read some WSO offers here that fall short of the bull crap pile by inches.

Hype in a basic form will never run on any google advertising hence the big shut down of 99% of any clickbank promotions on clickbank and i would very much doubt if the same did not apply to most if not all WSO's listed here, they simply would not run and people would have accounts banned.

Hype in googles eyes is along these lines -

Words or reference to anybody being able to do something

good examples of this would be

Buy my snake oil potion and fix your pimples for life
Buy my wso and make $1000 per day within a week
This book will show you how to get you lover back

Pretty well anything that pertains that with this offer my woes and cures will be fixed regardless of who what where and why I am.

Anyway I talked to Google about the Unacceptable Business Practice -
Misleading/Inaccurate Claims meaning and I found out:

1) the site cannot say it will work for everyone
2) cannot say the product is "Fool Proof"
3) Basically cannot over-hype the product's ability in any way

Any site that does any of the above, will get flagged for Unacceptable
Business Practices

Sure okay you have a point, but the only point you are bringing is the fact of people who Over Hype their products to the point it becomes a lie...

Your example of headlines people use or have used are nothing but lies. What about the type of Hype headlines that are not lies but focus on emotion... for example:

A good example of Hype (in my opinion):

“Will Leave You Both

THUNDERSTRUCK

And Boiling With Rage!”

Of course I see Hype a little differently than most but the above headline doesn't lie and it invokes curiosity, emotion, and a sense of wonderment. This headline was actually taken from a movie review!

Are movie reviews Hype? Yes, I think so... Does that mean they are bad? ... No, not to me...

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Sure okay you have a point, but the only point you are bringing is the fact of people who Over Hype their products to the point it becomes a lie...Are movie reviews Hype? Yes, I think so... Does that mean they are bad? ... No, not to me...

Sorry for the confusion I remain a neutral country on what is right or wrong / what is hype and what is not - I have no argument for or against, I was just putting up some reference to material that I deal with on pretty well a daily basis with clients in relation to why sites will not run on adwords or as to why accounts are banned.

From where I sit, daily I cop a blast usually from people who are upset over having accounts suspended, all I try and do is help and they dig into me and I only carry the news, and do not enforce it - Pretty well I am damned if I do or I do not, but pretty well used of it now. More than often now I will not even bother answering to peoples posts because I know in trying to help I just cop the abuse from upset people.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Sorry for the confusion I remain a neutral country on what is right or wrong / what is hype and what is not - I have no argument for or against, I was just putting up some reference to material that I deal with on pretty well a daily basis with clients in relation to why sites will not run on adwords or as to why accounts are banned.

From where i sit daily i cop a blast usually from people who are upset over having accounts suspended, all I try and do is help and they dig into me and I only carry the news, and do not enforce it - Pretty well I am damned if I do or I do not, but pretty well used of it now.

Ah yes, the lovely world of business... LOL

I wasn't ranting all over you, no confusion here and I appreciate you injecting your opinion, that's what makes this place so great. We can actually have intelligent conversations and see other people's opinions that maybe we haven't looked at in that way before.

Thanks for sharing

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affhelper

11 years ago

If you are competing with major players who use Hype (Google for example) then it's hard not to do it too.

Some titles Google used for promoting Prizes.org through Adwords:

Make Money? Super EASY
Name things and make $1000+
No catch. Sign-up NOW!

No catch? How about the fact that you are just entering a contest and there is no guarantee of anything lol

Or this one

Work at Home. Earn $10k+
Easy & fun tasks that pay cash.
No Fees. Sign-up for free!

I mean, how would you compete to stand out? Hype gets attention so if you want your message to reach masses then you almost don't have a choice, especially in IM niche.

Just to add, you probably have much better chance making $10k+ by following the advice you get from some WSOs but if someone here used a headline like Google does then some people would still complain.

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi affhelper,

Originally Posted by affhelper

If you are competing with major players who use Hype (Google for example) then it's hard not to do it too.

[snip]

Hype gets attention so if you want your message to reach masses then you almost don't have a choice, especially in IM niche.

I agree with both assertions.

I like to think of this analogy to try and understand the nature of hype - in a real world environment, like a marketplace, it's the equivalent of shouting.

One person starts shouting to attract the attention of the passers-by and distract them from the other stalls/sellers.

In order to 'compete', other sellers start shouting too, but a little bit louder, or in a more exaggerated manner.

Pretty soon, everyone is shouting their heads off.

The outcome is that anyone who wants to think clearly while conducting business, can't.

So they might well leave without buying.

Those who are left are those who are able to still think despite the din and those who just aren't thinking.

But the latter may start thinking when they leave the marketplace and find some peace and quiet.

When you hype (or perhaps more importantly, over-hype) your pitch, you are encouraging the buyer to experience buyer's remorse even before they have examined the product to see if it is good value, because they will (usually) be aware that it was the hype which they were sold on, not the real value.

I see products here which are over-hyped which didn't actually need any hype, but they are hyped (presumeably) because of the 'everyone else is doing it so I need to do it too and even better' factor.

Just some food for thought.

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Troy_Phillips

11 years ago

Why would you SEO your sales page? PPC to a sales page is usually not the best practice either .. if you want to be a salesperson.

The sales letter is what you funnel traffic to .. not through. End result.

I quit associating Google and sales pages about the same time I started using two step caps with SEO and PPC. I don't know about now but a few years back Google started blowing scores through the roof because we were offering free but required an opt in which in their eyes is not free.

I would say buffer but I already saw what hype brought out.

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Hype is the number one thing that the big G slams most of the time and is pertinent to most clickbank products or as in a similar manner to the copy used in most click bank products and given that I have read some WSO offers here that fall short of the bull crap pile by inches.

Hype in a basic form will never run on any google advertising hence the big shut down of 99% of any clickbank promotions on clickbank and i would very much doubt if the same did not apply to most if not all WSO's listed here, they simply would not run and people would have accounts banned.

Hype in googles eyes is along these lines -

Words or reference to anybody being able to do something

good examples of this would be

Buy my snake oil potion and fix your pimples for life
Buy my wso and make $1000 per day within a week
This book will show you how to get you lover back

Pretty well anything that pertains that with this offer my woes and cures will be fixed regardless of who what where and why I am.

Anyway I talked to Google about the Unacceptable Business Practice -Misleading/Inaccurate Claims meaning and I found out:

1) the site cannot say it will work for everyone
2) cannot say the product is "Fool Proof"
3) Basically cannot over-hype the product's ability in any way

Any site that does any of the above, will get flagged for Unacceptable Business Practices

Thanks

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MikeAmbrosio

11 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Hype is different from well worded sales copy - hype makes something sound bigger than it is. There is a fine line between exciting copy and hype - but it's one that you do not really want to cross. It leads to disappointed buyers.

Of course - PLR doesn't take a lot of exciting copy to sell, so I just list the facts. People know what they need for PLR, they don't need convincing. In other niches, a bit more excitement is a necessity to make them want the product - but I would never HYPE a piece of sales. Catchy phrasing to describe the truth is not beyond me, but I don't believe it is necessary or a good thing to make something sound beyond what it actually is - and that is what HYPE is. I'm thinking that you and I were talking about two different styles of writing. It's sad that the word "hype" is so worn out and the technique so over-used that people are mistaking the word for meaning sharp, witty advertising copy.

I understand your viewpoint. And yes - I think we are thinking a little different. I see the word "hype" as simply "spicing up" some copy using emotional trigger words, etc. Not necessarily making it bigger than it is. That would be OVER hyped, in my view...

I used to sell a lot of "How To" type videos. Like PLR, it really does not benefit from over hyped sales copy. But I certainly spiced it up

For example:

- 7 Part Video Series which will show you how to "insert whatever here"

- Finally: Get your hands on this high quality, comprehensive and information packed 7 part video series and you will discover how to easily "insert whatever here"

(forgive the crudeness... it's early).

The first one is dull. The second is better and in MY view, doesn't make it anything MORE than what it is - it simply helps get the prospect get "excited" enough to keep reading... and I always considered my videos to be high quality and comprehensive, so I don't see it as hyped, either...

That's why I think "spicing up" even your PLR sales pages would probably boost your sales without compromising your integrity

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MikeAmbrosio

11 years ago

Mike Hill! Long time no chat! How's it going??

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Troy_Phillips

11 years ago

Hype is a necessity in some, if not most niches! A lie is a lie. Big difference.

Hype one sales page and downplay another sales page for the same product, split test and then see if hype is all that bad.

The next time you decide to do a sales page ... think of the biggest lie you can think of and then start cutting it down until you can make that lie a reality ... provide what the headline states ... stop there .. you just created a sales page that ... sells.

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Rus Sells

11 years ago

I'm sorry, but just when does the big fat lie become a reality? A lie is a lie is a lie. I totally don't get your perspective here at all.

Personally I think there needs to be some changes to the WSO section.

I think OTO should not be permitted for starters. The WSO section isn't a sales funnel. More and more I see buyers asking on wso threads if theirs an upsell. This CLEARLY means buyers "here" are sick and tired of it.

Vendors who listen to the buyers will end up being the ones that are still around down the road. That's my opinion on it.

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

Hype is a necessity in some, if not most niches! A lie is a lie. Big difference.

Hype one sales page and downplay another sales page for the same product, split test and then see if hype is all that bad.

The next time you decide to do a sales page ... think of the biggest lie you can think of and then start cutting it down until you can make that lie a reality ... provide what the headline states ... stop there .. you just created a sales page that ... sells.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

I'm sorry, but just when does the big fat lie become a reality? A lie is a lie is a lie. I totally don't get your perspective here at all.

Personally I think there needs to be some changes to the WSO section.

I think OTO should not be permitted for starters. The WSO section isn't a sales funnel. More and more I see buyers asking on wso threads if theirs an upsell. This CLEARLY means buyers "here" are sick and tired of it.

Vendors who listen to the buyers will end up being the ones that are still around down the road. That's my opinion on it.

What's wrong with an OTO? I use upgrade offers on everything I sell... but I provide everything I promise in my sales letter in the product I sell. The upgrade is related but completely different and is not a necessity in order to achieve what I promise in my sales page. What my upgrades do provide are easier and faster ways to do the things I teach in my courses.

The WSO section is for great deals and the buyers are getting great deals even on upgrade offers they are getting great deals... Whats wrong with that? What's wrong with being a marketer and marketing to their prospects?

NOTHING is wrong with that...

I don't see a lot of people complaining and being sick and tired of Upgrade offers but what I do see is people buying them. What I do see though is when people become unhappy because they were not told they had to buy the Upsell in order to get the things promised in the sales copy... That's plain wrong.

The upgrade offer is something completely separate from the WSO sale but yet the customer is still getting a good deal. I don't see the issue here Russ.

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Troy_Phillips

11 years ago

That big fat lie becomes reality when it is cut down to the point of working. Example ...

Get 20,000 visitors in ten seconds keeps getting reworked until it becomes 2500 in 24 hours. If you can produce those numbers consistently it is time to quit whittling on the headline.

You may not get the perspective but if my product is promising 2500 visitors to a site in 24 hours and your product is promising real visitors quick .. my page will need to prove itself quicker and more often than yours because I am getting the buyers.

Since we are thinking and giving opinion .. I think the WSO buyer needs to grow the hell up and either quit buying the BS or take responsibility for their own actions.

Instead of saying "That big bad Guru scammed me" it would be nice to hear someone say "I am such an idiot .. I have been buying silver bullets for two years now and haven't even got close enough to a werewolf to get a decent shot .. much less kill one"

Now someone who makes their upsale something mandatory to the operation of the main product needs kicked in the groin .. repeatedly, but to say that an upsale is a bad thing seems somewhat ironic coming from someone on a marketing forum.

To hear some tell it .... we are here to build a relationship by giving away the farm. That is not my reason for being here. Nothing wrong with helping someone out but ... after 4 or 5 thank yous .. my kids start spitting them up and request food real money buys.

Upsales .... hyped headlines and pushed to the edge product claims will not be the death of the WSO section .. it will be the vendor getting tired of all the whining from the fools who bought the make x amount in 30 days and demand and get a refund 10 minutes after buying. So tired they venture out into the huge arena outside the WF and realize there is a world where you can take care of customer service .. make people happy .. and not get crucified for offering something after the sale that just might help them reach the place they desire quicker.

I learned all that up here in the Ga mountains .. hillbilly haven .. I don't know what they are teaching in those big schools down in the capital but I believe I would ask for a refund ... upsale or not

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

I'm sorry, but just when does the big fat lie become a reality? A lie is a lie is a lie. I totally don't get your perspective here at all.

Personally I think there needs to be some changes to the WSO section.

I think OTO should not be permitted for starters. The WSO section isn't a sales funnel. More and more I see buyers asking on wso threads if theirs an upsell. This CLEARLY means buyers "here" are sick and tired of it.

Vendors who listen to the buyers will end up being the ones that are still around down the road. That's my opinion on it.

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tpw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

I'm sorry, but just when does the big fat lie become a reality? A lie is a lie is a lie. I totally don't get your perspective here at all.

We started out in full agreement.

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

Personally I think there needs to be some changes to the WSO section.

I think OTO should not be permitted for starters. The WSO section isn't a sales funnel. More and more I see buyers asking on wso threads if theirs an upsell. This CLEARLY means buyers "here" are sick and tired of it.

Vendors who listen to the buyers will end up being the ones that are still around down the road. That's my opinion on it.

If OTO's are so evil and customers hate them, why do some offers have 40% to 50% conversions on the OTO?

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David Keith 11 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

If OTO's are so evil and customers hate them, why do some offers have 40% to 50% conversions on the OTO?

Because there are more fools among buyers than among sellers.
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Kim Standerline

11 years ago

I can never understand why marketer's hate being marketed to...

Nothing wrong with an upsell as long as the original product is as it should be, after all you only have to say no. (I often do)!!

Kim

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

I'm sorry, but just when does the big fat lie become a reality? A lie is a lie is a lie. I totally don't get your perspective here at all.

Personally I think there needs to be some changes to the WSO section.

I think OTO should not be permitted for starters. The WSO section isn't a sales funnel. More and more I see buyers asking on wso threads if theirs an upsell. This CLEARLY means buyers "here" are sick and tired of it.

Vendors who listen to the buyers will end up being the ones that are still around down the road. That's my opinion on it.

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KevL

11 years ago

I must admit I'm getting bemused by some of the emails I'm getting from WMers who I previously had respect for, who seem to be getting desperate to make sales. One of them in particular, who's list I've been on for ages, has started sending me at least one email per day, with a stupid, obnoxious, annoying totally misleading title of some description (clickbank is shutting it down, etc) , then just a few - often just as annoying as the subject - words, and then an affiliate link - often linking to really crappy, scammy looking video sales pitches, that make me think - hang on, did he even look at this before sending it to his list??

One thing I'm certainly seeing from a LOT of people who's lists I'm on, is that the amount of effort going into each email seems to be dropping, I remember when I'd get a lot of informative and interesting, thought provoking emails - I get very few of them now, more often than not it's a blatant sales email with an aff link to a just launched affiliate product.

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FredBeers

11 years ago

i think we've all seen it plenty of times as of late.

about everyday.

for me, I take it as a lesson in what not to do. whats strange is that many of those that write such emails (or probably more often, just copy and paste pre-written promo emails) are the same who preach to us noobs or not-so-noobs about list cultivating.

"build a relationship with your list"
"get them to like, know, and trust you", etc.

the sad fact is that, it is the neglecting of that focus that leads to a great deal of the plummeting open rates, click-throughs, and conversions these desperate marketers are trying to improve.

that and a bit of greed no doubt.

course, im in the ethereal plane between noob and not-so-noob. so maybe my summation is somewhat remiss.

but the fact remains... if a friend or even someone i casually know emails me, it doesnt really matter much about the subject line (thats an after thought as compared to the from line), I'll open it [even if its one of those stupid forwards that we all abhor), and if the email is of interest to me, I'll click a link, because i know my friend and he sends me cool stuff.

no hype needed when you have cultivated that kind of relationship. but who wants a real business anyway. we want the easy button right?

thats what they made. now its broke.

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Bill Farnham

11 years ago

LOL, Google must be clairvoyant, Mike.

I copy/pasted the quotes you included in the OP to see if I could snoop out who you're talking about.

I got one result.

This thread.

From "18 hours ago".

Weird. :p

~Bill

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Farnham

LOL, Google must be clairvoyant, Mike.

I copy/pasted the quotes you included in the OP to see if I could snoop out who you're talking about.

I got one result.

This thread.

From "18 hours ago".

Weird. :p

~Bill

LOL... I guess Google is into Scams and Lies... Hmmmmm

Considering how many scams and lies there are it might in fact be a viable keyword to rank for!

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JeanneLynn

11 years ago

I'm getting ready to unsubscribe to most of the internet marketers that I'm signed up to. The emails are just getting to the point where they are beyond ridiculous. I think it actually raises my blood pressure to read them. I have one guy who emails me every single time a new WSO is released. It's just getting annoying now.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JeanneLynn

I'm getting ready to unsubscribe to most of the internet marketers that I'm signed up to. The emails are just getting to the point where they are beyond ridiculous. I think it actually raises my blood pressure to read them. I have one guy who emails me every single time a new WSO is released. It's just getting annoying now.

Yes you are right... I see a lot of the garbage coming through. I subscribe to a lot of lists to keep an eye on what my competitors are doing and they are not doing a very good job.

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Randall Magwood

11 years ago

Time to unsubscribe from this person's list, and ignore their advice with great vigor.

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David Keith

11 years ago

The truth is many of these guys are the ones responsible for behaviorally training people over the last few years to only respond to the hype and lies.

Many of those guys contributed greatly to where the industry is today. They went down the slipper slope of trading your morals/ethics for a quick profit. Then once you do it once, it just becomes a snowball.

Now if a person were to release a product that is not way over hyped and over promised in the WSO section, it won't convert well, and thus won't gain affiliates and traction.

There is still a small niche of the IM niche that teaches real business stuff, but that's not the norm anymore.

As far as hype vs lies. Hype often turns to lies because people over promise and under deliver.

I still remember way back in the day when IM products rarely had income claims attached to them. When they did, they were in small print, not the headline, sub headline, subject line, and product title.

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FredBeers 11 years ago

i actually remember some of those myself.

i've seen a few WSO's that are down to earth and real too.

That have converted. its not all lost at least. thats good.

an environment is emerging, I believe, that will create a space for those of us who still hold a tight fist on our morals.

to those that compromise a steady degradation in response rates and to those of us who stick to our guns an increase.

we'll begin to stick out like sore thumbs, as it were.
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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Hmmm,

The noun hype has one sense-drivel, flimflam, ballyhoo, hoopla and hot air. (blatant or sensational promotion)

Hype as a verb also has one sense (publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner)

I'm with Sal, I'll leave the drivel, flimflam, ballyhoo, hoopla and hot air to others.

Terra

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Hmmm,

The noun hype has one sense-drivel, flimflam, ballyhoo, hoopla and hot air. (blatant or sensational promotion)

Hype as a verb also has one sense (publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner)

I'm with Sal, I'll leave the drivel, flimflam, ballyhoo, hoopla and hot air to others.

Terra

Huh? I don't even know if half of those nouns are actual words... LOL.

But, if this is how you classify Hype then your website has "Hype" right in the headline.

You said that you consider Hype exaggeration right?

Well your headline on your website says "The Most Sought After Voice Over Talent On The Internet"... But I haven't heard of you so does that mean your headline is exaggerated (Hyped) because you claim to be the most sought after on the entire Internet?

Just saying...

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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Huh? I don't even know if half of those nouns are actual words... LOL.

But, if this is how you classify Hype then your website has "Hype" right in the headline.

You said that you consider Hype exaggeration right?

Well your headline on your website says "The Most Sought After Voice Over Talent On The Internet"... But I haven't heard of you so does that mean your headline is exaggerated (Hyped) because you claim to be the most sought after on the entire Internet?

Just saying...

LOL! Mike, yes they are actual words.

And hmmm, you have a very good point there. I suppose that I am the most sought after with my return and loyal clients as well as the reputable company that sought me to join forces with them.

I didn't write that portion of my page however, it was written for me by a copywriter, but after you have brought that to light, I'm pretty sure I'm going to do an edit and I actually want to thank you.

Terra

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

LOL! Mike, yes they are actual words.

And hmmm, you have a very good point there. I suppose that I am the most sought after with my return and loyal clients as well as the reputable company that sought me to join forces with them.

I didn't write that portion of my page however, it was written for me by a copywriter, but after you have brought that to light, I'm pretty sure I'm going to do an edit and I actually want to thank you.

Terra

Terra,

I don't know what it is but I get an awesome feeling about you... maybe it's the hat!

(It really suits you)

Personally, I would leave the headline the same but you could add those things you mentioned in the body of the copy, which your copywriter should have done. It breeds trust with your readers because you have built a clientele of loyal repeat customers.

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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Terra,

I don't know what it is but I get an awesome feeling about you... maybe it's the hat!

(It really suits you)

Personally, I would leave the headline the same but you could add those things you mentioned in the body of the copy, which your copywriter should have done. It breeds trust with your readers because you have built a clientele of loyal repeat customers.

Aww, Thank you, Mike!

But too late

I just toned it down a little, it now says "Let One Of The Most Sought After Voice Talents On The Internet..."

Terra

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Aww, Thank you, Mike!

But too late

I just toned it down a little, it now says "Let One Of The Most Sought After Voice Talents On The Internet..."

Terra

You know what... it actually reads better! You should keep an eye on that change and see if you get a better conversion! It's all about testing small changes... Way to go!

I wish you much success!

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MissTerraK

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

You know what... it actually reads better! You should keep an eye on that change and see if you get a better conversion! It's all about testing small changes... Way to go!

I wish you much success!

Gosh, thanks again Mike!

I appreciate your feedback and I'm going to do just that!

PS ~ It was a pleasure to make your acquaintance!

Terra

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David Mcalorum

11 years ago

All of this could be going on because of a few marketers
who completely ruined clickbanks credibility the last year or so.

Now, the momentum has shifted and more affiliates seem to
be promoting WSOs, because they are simply more profitable.
(in this niche)

But in the end of the day, your responsible for your own business,
and misleading your customers sure ain't going to help it in the
short term or the long term.

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eldudebros

11 years ago

I would unsubscribe from this person's mailing list immediately.

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Ben Armstrong

11 years ago

I made the decision very early on to be willfully ignorant when it comes to the goings on of the Internet Marketing world and what others are doing. Threads like this confirm that I made the right move.

I'm subscribed to about 4 lists out of about 30-40 that I culled along the way.

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athenajw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ben Armstrong

I made the decision very early on to be willfully ignorant when it comes to the goings on of the Internet Marketing world and what others are doing. Threads like this confirm that I made the right move.

I'm subscribed to about 4 lists out of about 30-40 that I culled along the way.

Ben--What are the four you kept? That would be helpful!

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David Keith

11 years ago

My point is that the "gurus" have greatly contributed to the current attitude and expectations of buyers.

I guess this could turn into a chicken and egg debate, but for those of us who have watched things happen over the last 15 years or so, we see a definite change in the sales pitches of sellers. They have progressively gotten less and less ethical.

When you scan a place like CB or the WSO board, and the majority of offers are pitching what most of us know are unrealistic expectations, I think the sellers surely bare some responsibility as well.

However, I do agree buyers need to wise up and put their big boy pants on if they really want to be in business.

But from my perspective, I have about 16 years of marketing experience. And I know for a fact that even with all that knowledge, I couldn't "start from scratch and make XXXXX in 30 days" like many of those products claim.

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MaryK

11 years ago

First, I would unsubscribe immediately. These black hat tactics are despicable and do not deserve support in any way whatsoever.

Secondly, yes it is sad, but keep in mind the many, many genuine warriors who are always here to help.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MaryK

First, I would unsubscribe immediately. These black hat tactics are despicable and do not deserve support in any way whatsoever.

Secondly, yes it is sad, but keep in mind the many, many genuine warriors who are always here to help.

Mary... you should check your sig file link... I think you have it setup to the wrong URL

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paul_1

11 years ago

Time to review sales pages and follow up emails... Make sure you check them with the new rules of the game...

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

PS. Why would I unsubscribe like some of you are suggesting? I am a student of marketing and will be for the rest of my life... I like to keep a keen eye about what is going on in the industry.

I keep a lot of emails for reference later on

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IMAdam

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

PS. Why would I unsubscribe like some of you are suggesting? I am a student of marketing and will be for the rest of my life... I like to keep a keen eye about what is going on in the industry.

I keep a lot of emails for reference later on

Exactly what I say!

I rarely buy from the lists I'm on, but I enjoy studying the copy used to entice me into buying. If I get excited about the message, I store those emails in a swipe file for testing.

It's amazing the gems you can pick up.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Hype defined

thefreedictionary.com/hype

1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion:

2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material:

3. An advertising or promotional ploy:

4. Something deliberately misleading; a deception:

LIE

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:

an inaccurate or false statement.

the charge or accusation of lying:

verb (used without object)
to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.

to express what is false; convey a false impression.

I think these are going in the same direction...

So now we know what they are defined... Hype Exaggerated

So what is Exaggerated

1. To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate: exaggerate the size of the enemy force; exaggerated his own role in the episode.

2. To enlarge or increase to an abnormal degree:

I'm going to have to say hype is something that is not true and if it is not 100% true it is a lie...

Second issue... scam scene and that is WSOs....

I'm going to have to say by my experiences (only) with WSOs that some are scams... you can see some get locked some get deleted. You're going to get some bad seeds.

I do think the FTC should crack down on the scams if it is in the world or WSOs they all need to go.

It's sad that hype and lies do sell but I don't think you need hype or lies to sell.

Richard

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oda

11 years ago

One of the most successful Sales people I have ever met said this to me:

"Fear Of loss is greater than the want of gain"

People respond when the hype makes them feel like they are missing out on something. Whether its Income, an opportunity or any product really that's what gets the best response in my opinion.

Are you more likely to buy that cool looking toaster because you need it or because its the last one in stock?
Salesman "yes we are getting more but I don't know when" meanwhile there's a pallet of them coming off the truck in the dock.

Is it fair or reasonable?

Probably not, But at the end of the day People judge others and themselves on results.

Be honest when you sell a thousand copies of something are you happier you made a 1000 sales or helped a 1000 People?
If it was the latter then all your products would be freebies.

IMHO

Justin

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Istvan Horvath

11 years ago

Anyway I talked to Google about the Unacceptable Business Practice -Misleading/Inaccurate Claims meaning and I found out:

1) the site cannot say it will work for everyone
2) cannot say the product is "Fool Proof"
3) Basically cannot over-hype the product's ability in any way

Any site that does any of the above, will get flagged for Unacceptable Business Practices

Did the aforementioned company buy the internet lately...?

I didn't know they were going to tell what is right and what is wrong.
(Last time in my younger years this great task was f*cking well performed by the Communist Party of every Eastern European country...)

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Bill Farnham

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath

I didn't know they were going to tell what is right and what is wrong.
(Last time in my younger years this great task was f*cking well performed by the Communist Party of every Eastern European country...)

Back to the future...

~Bill

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positivemagic

11 years ago

I feel people are immune to hype. People want to do business with honest people they can relate to. That's how I've always done business. It's not about the numbers, it's about treating people with respect and integrity. I have confidence that conducting my campaigns in this matter will keep my customers loyal and in doing so help keep food on the table. God bless all and good luck in your businesses.

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Kierkegaard

11 years ago

The point about hype is that the claims are not true.

The difference between hyperbole and a lie is that hype is not supposed to be taken as fact. We all know this, hype revels in it and people are cautioned "not to believe the hype".

In all areas other than marketing, such as a major trial, hype is always against the thing being hyped. People use it with the intention of throwing enough mud so that some of it sticks.

Some marketers use hype knowing that:

A. hype gives you license to make outlandish claims (say what you like rather than restricting yourself to talking about the product)

B. no-one believes the hype (defend saying what you liked by saying no-one is supposed to believe it - it's just hype!)

C. big something up enough and people will start to believe there is some truth behind the claims. (throw enough 'marketing mud'* and some will stick)

*marketing mud is a polite word for bullsh-t

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tpw 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kierkegaard

*marketing mud is a polite word for bullsh-t

Is that what my wife puts on her face in the evening?
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Black Hat Cat

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

WOW... This is a shock to me considering this person is a well known member here on the forum. Got an email today... it was long but a few sentences shocked me completely when this marketer said:

"Now there is just one major remaining player on the scam scene and that is WSOs." and "...In time, the FTC will shut them down too."

This marketer goes on to say that "ClickBank just threw in the towel"

Are you serious? I can't stand when marketers lie to "funnel" the crowd to their line of thinking... This isn't an angle - this is a BS lie!

I received the same email. Not really surprised though. He hasn't been playing with a full deck for quite awhile now, imo.

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tpw 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

I received the same email. Not really surprised though. He hasn't been playing with a full deck for quite awhile now, imo.

LOL

There seems to be a lot of games of "52-card pickup" showing up in the forum these days....
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dwriter

11 years ago

Weird things that marketers can do to make a sale.

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J Bold

11 years ago

And what did he mean by Clickbank throwing in the towel?

Last I checked the site is still alive and running...

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tpw 11 years ago

Originally Posted by redicelander

And what did he mean by Clickbank throwing in the towel?

Last I checked the site is still alive and running...

They probably kicked this person out of ClickBank.

It is the only thing that makes sense to me.
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Rus Sells

11 years ago

In my post I said that I didn't think OTO should be permitted on the WSO section. And yes, I've use OTO before on 1 product on the forums, BUT I as a buyer as well, see where other buyers are coming from. Buyers that aren't always a vendor as well.

Now...
So far two people have responded to that statement, and the take away is that I think OTO's are a bad thing. I never stated that at all, I actually never referred to it in a positive or negative light either way.

I did however say that I've seen buyers asking about OTO's on vendors threads within the "frame" that they didn't particularly care for them as a buyer.

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Mark Hess

11 years ago

I read the same email, Maybe this person just wanted to stir the pot and get people talking

or the dreaded...

"Remember when I told you all WSO's where scams?

Well this one isn't:

-ENTER PERSON'S AFFILIATE LINK HERE -"

Everyone has an agenda...

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Mark,

or the dreaded...

"Remember when I told you all WSO's where scams?

Well this one isn't:

-ENTER PERSON'S AFFILIATE LINK HERE -"

I really, really doubt that one is coming any time soon. Possible, if a good enough product came along, but as part of a planned set-up? Nah.

Paul

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Mark Hess

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mark,I really, really doubt that one is coming any time soon. Possible, if a good enough product came along, but as part of a planned set-up? Nah.

Paul

I agree with you this person wouldn't pull that...

But I've seen the 'trash then promote' used quite a bit by some marketers.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Hess

I agree with you this person wouldn't pull that...

But I've seen the 'trash then promote' used quite a bit by some marketers.

As a general thing? Yeah. I can see a lot of people doing that. Have seen, actually.

Paul

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Speaking of OTO's ... two of the last three WSO's I've bought gave me multiple chances to buy the OTO. With one, when I passed it up I was sent an email with a link back to OTO in case I change my mind. With the other the link back to it was on the product download page.

Last time I knew an OTO was a one-time offer, meaning you're only going to get one chance at it.

I must have missed the memo that it now means open timeline offer.

Some will say it's just another way to make sales. It's also just another way to lose credibility.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Speaking of OTO's ... two of the last three WSO's I've bought gave me multiple chances to buy the OTO. With one, when I passed it up I was sent an email with a link back to OTO in case I change my mind. With the other the link back to it was on the product download page.

Last time I knew an OTO was a one-time offer, meaning you're only going to get one chance at it.

I must have missed the memo that it now means open timeline offer.

Some will say it's just another way to make sales. It's also just another way to lose credibility.

Are you sure it was a OTO and not an Upgrade? Personally I like to present it as an Upgrade because then I can offer my customers a chance to purchase it again if they didn't the first time.

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Are you sure it was a OTO and not an Upgrade? Personally I like to present it as an Upgrade because then I can offer my customers a chance to purchase it again if they didn't the first time.

I called it an OTO because they did.

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Mike Hill 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I called it an OTO because they did.

Okay just asking because some people call it a OTO because they are so used to seeing them and that's all they know when in fact they were exposed to an Upgrade or a limited time offer which is much different than an OTO...
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zerofill 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Last time I knew an OTO was a one-time offer, meaning you're only going to get one chance at it.

Yeah...

And last time I knew JVs weren't just a term for affiliates lol. But that has all changed to. But your right on that one.

Although I know buyers send in emails all the time missing or regretting they didn't by the OTO. So I can see handling some of them on a case by case basis if they ask.
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gccalfeche

11 years ago

sadly, some people are making these lies. such bad business for their own sake.

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Usmile

11 years ago

Sad to say, some marketers are very obsess in getting things in instant. Does this person harm you or anyone you know?

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RedShifted

11 years ago

Scammers can just change their ip/name so what they're doing isn't exactly stupid imo. And don't really see how it will impact their longevity.

This is the internet afterall and I see tons of "good" marketers faking testimonials and social status so really its like the pot calling the kettle black. Just the some people are more open about their deciet. Very few people are realistically altruistic so scammers don't bother me a whole lot. They're making stupid people smarter, which is the precise reason I don't get scammed anymore.

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